This is fantastic. I always knew my childhood and family life revolved around my mother and her moods, and now I can see how she tries to pull me into this sick game of meeting her needs while ignoring mine, by either playing the victim or persecutor. Thank you for this resource.
There is one triangle that people need to extricate themselves from, and that is the only remedy. That is when this kind of “game” is the result of narcissistic triangulation. There is no way you can ever win that game. Best to cut your losses and run fast and run far 🙏🏼
I've always had a rescuer dynamic and can see how I can be perceived as a victim at times when I actually stood up for my needs. I don't intentionally turn to be a victim but understand the game. What sucks is trying to have harmony once you're in a game and you're the only one recognizing the game. Because then the other party will continue it unintentionally.
This is a really rough cycle to be in. I am certain I was mistreated, but the other person is not having it, nor will take any responsibility, show care, or show any initiation… I am making distance now since I gave the other person three chances to behave differently. It’s crazy making for sure.
Very good video, however I do disagree as to what the solution is. I have known about the triangle for about a decade, ans yes, I have managed to change a few relationships, and my automatic reactions to give unsolicited advice and to pity people, as a life long Rescuer. However, my experience is that this dynamic, in either role, is deep seated traumatisation, and I have worked a long time to heal it in the core. Now I think I finally did. I have also recognised the Rescuer as being a narcissist role, as another name for an enabler. Yes, the victims are looking to give their power away, but the rescuer does make people more helpless. I have experenced both sides of it and it is very real. That makes it almost unbearable to people to injest the information or recognise themselves as a rescuer who is a covert narcissist. The victim is essentially a manipulative narcissist as well. So much self forgiveness is needed to break the spell. The rescuer is self sacrifising, which is actually vicimising them. It is a form of self abandonement, to help everyone but yourself. Yet we idolise it, and when they die of cancer we say « oooh they never did anything for themselves, such a GOOD person, sacrifising themselves.» We all want to be «good». Its much better to become authentic and real.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Selfovesiva. You don’t have to be traumatised or a narcissist to play a role in the drama triangle however, your life position and script do indicate what games you might play. You may be interested in my videos on life position and the life script detailed below: ☐ Life Script: th-cam.com/video/FKEFgm0R0Sc/w-d-xo.html ☐ Life Positions: th-cam.com/video/rIpL4OMu1WA/w-d-xo.html Best wishes, Teresa.
As my family's scapegoat I can tell you I usually was in the victim position or moving from rescuer to victim. If I moved from any of those positions to the persecutor it was due as a reaction to extreme abuse and not as the starting position. I have noticed many times that I have helped people in a really bad situation and they have hated me afterwards because I saw them in their misfortunes or I was a witness of some flaw in them and it is true that it is never a good idea to help a narcissist but most of the times, you (or at least I) don't know it.
Learning and applying this along with some other therapy can be life changing for the better I come from a very dysfunctional childhood and often people have tried being my rescuer It hasn't ended well These days when ever a potential rescuer comes along I run like hell I'm so much happier now and I've kept a handful of real friends who have supported me but shown me dignity to make my own decisions and vise versa
@@LewisPsychology thanks for posting Well I have to admit I did enjoy switching from victim to persecutor for a short while, just enough to let my rescuers to get the message lol 🤣🤣🤣
These dynamics appear to be so 'operational' on a daily basis, that it sometimes seems very difficult to me to imagine relationships are even possible without them. (sadly) But it feels so exciting to give it to me (and to others, when we fully give it to ourself!) as a horizon. Thank you!
@@LewisPsychology thank you. It is very unhelpful that so much psychotherapy is non directive. I’ve been rambling on for years. It’s clear psycho education that’s needed and connected into what Im saying… my experience more than once. This way of being is central to what goes on in my family of origin and this is the “ milder” stuff. Yikes.
When it comes to finding your place within the drama triangle, I can't recommend asking the people around you enough. You might be feeling like one, when you really appear like the other. Most people aren't able to reflect properly when they're heated, so if you want certainty on whats going on, address it!
Thank you so much for such a clear and concise explanation of the Drama Triangle. Would it be possible to make a video on the various games? Thank you!
This is profoundly helpful information. I am such a rescuer and my husband is a victim. He switches to persecuter and I switch to victim. I keep taking the bait because I keep thinking that he just needs to understand how he is hurting me. I have been able to share a few helpful concepts with him like: social-emotional learning, the window of tolerance and the concept of dysregulation / self-regulation, Non-violent communication, John Gottman’s Four Horses, etc. Frankly, I’m not sure if I want to share this with him because I feel that he will just distort it and turn it around on me. For a long time he believed that his defensiveness was my fault because I wasn’t being gentle enough- distorting Gottman’s words. For now I’m just going to focus on identifying the bait!
It’s kind of hard to believe that anyone who would come to a public forum to trash their spouse doesn’t doesn’t see themselves ever playing the persecutor in their interactions. Just rescuer and victim. Bless your heart. 🙄
Thank you Teresa! Love your video and how you explained the Karpman triangle. Great channel as well and clear thumbnails :). Would love to collaborate, if you are available for an interview.
Thank you for your kind words and invite. At the moment I’m running two companies and trying to get a regular TH-cam video out so as a result I'm working 7 days a week. I’m going to decline your very kind offer and I wish you all the best with you TH-cam channel. Best wishes, Teresa.
Could you please frame the Karpman Drama Triangle with IFS? It seems that "the switch" may be a protector part stepping. My husband and I are absolutely zooming around and around the triangle. We switch roles often. We are both doing IFS therapy and it would be tremendously helpful to understand how to move to a stable triangle. Is there a pattern of what parts are triggered? Thank you, Vanessa
Thanks for your question Vanessa. The drama triangle comes from the school of psychotherapy called Transactional Analysis (TA). One of the primary principles of TA is that you are made up of parts called Parent, Adult and Child. The idea is to step out of the drama triangle completely (Child and Parent energy and game playing) and move into the Adult. If I was framing this using Internal Family Systems (IFS) I would say that the drama triangle is played out by protector parts and you need to step out of the drama and into Self energy. My video on IFS explains more about the Self: th-cam.com/video/fzevlBt5HUA/w-d-xo.html Best wishes, Teresa.
Thank you for the great teaching videos on TA. You are doing a great service to others. Have you done a video on what Adult problem-solving looks like? I see a lot on the imbalance of thoughts and behavior but not much on how to actually problem-solve as the Adult. We can nod our heads and agree this is ideal but then we don’t know how to do it. Any thing on that be helpful. Thx again.
Thanks for your kind comment Darren. I’m actually working on a video that will show how to strengthen the Adult. It’s out next Tuesday so watch this space. Thanks again for your support, Teresa.
Thank you for this. Currently the home I live in, which is fairly small, is going to be occupied by my mother and grandmother. It's drama triangle magnified.. I am ok though in that I see it.. and am practicing awareness and gratitude for having a roof over my head.. just not sure how to go about dealing with the hostility between them
It's good you notice the Drama Triangle dynamics as it then becomes easier to step away from it. Wishing you all the best regarding your situation. Teresa.
Another mind blowing video for me. Drama triangle is very enlightening. Is it possible to say that the game can be played with 3 or more people also? (Parents and the kids or siblings)
Maybe it's no longer a game in this case but I think there is a fourth role, the teacher. I have sometimes needed to respond to agressive or victim presentations by engaging with the person's "game" but with the intent to help them snap out of it. I guess it's similar to the saviour role except it's different because it encourages the person to take more responsibility not less. Where would this fit in your model? It feels like you're playing the game still... so I dunno
Is this related to the book called infinite and finite games? Let me know if you want the link just look it up PDF but it’s a popular book that reminds me of this. Like this is a separate sect of that tree
No. It’s based on the work of Eric Berne, founder of Transactional Analysis. You may want to view the book Games People Play by Eric Berne. Best wishes, Teresa.
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☐ Life Script: th-cam.com/video/FKEFgm0R0Sc/w-d-xo.html
☐ Life Positions: th-cam.com/video/rIpL4OMu1WA/w-d-xo.html
This is fantastic. I always knew my childhood and family life revolved around my mother and her moods, and now I can see how she tries to pull me into this sick game of meeting her needs while ignoring mine, by either playing the victim or persecutor. Thank you for this resource.
This is pure gold! I've been a rescuer for more than a year now, but I'm out for good
That’s great to hear. Best wishes, Teresa.
There is one triangle that people need to extricate themselves from, and that is the only remedy. That is when this kind of “game” is the result of narcissistic triangulation. There is no way you can ever win that game. Best to cut your losses and run fast and run far 🙏🏼
Yes, you must remove yourself from the drama triangle and move into the clear Adult. Best wishes. Teresa.
I've always had a rescuer dynamic and can see how I can be perceived as a victim at times when I actually stood up for my needs. I don't intentionally turn to be a victim but understand the game. What sucks is trying to have harmony once you're in a game and you're the only one recognizing the game. Because then the other party will continue it unintentionally.
Learning about this ended my self harm . I was finally able to understand why it felt like a cycle I was stuck on . Truly life changing ❤
This is a really rough cycle to be in. I am certain I was mistreated, but the other person is not having it, nor will take any responsibility, show care, or show any initiation…
I am making distance now since I gave the other person three chances to behave differently.
It’s crazy making for sure.
Very good video, however I do disagree as to what the solution is. I have known about the triangle for about a decade, ans yes, I have managed to change a few relationships, and my automatic reactions to give unsolicited advice and to pity people, as a life long Rescuer. However, my experience is that this dynamic, in either role, is deep seated traumatisation, and I have worked a long time to heal it in the core. Now I think I finally did.
I have also recognised the Rescuer as being a narcissist role, as another name for an enabler. Yes, the victims are looking to give their power away, but the rescuer does make people more helpless. I have experenced both sides of it and it is very real.
That makes it almost unbearable to people to injest the information or recognise themselves as a rescuer who is a covert narcissist. The victim is essentially a manipulative narcissist as well.
So much self forgiveness is needed to break the spell.
The rescuer is self sacrifising, which is actually vicimising them. It is a form of self abandonement, to help everyone but yourself. Yet we idolise it, and when they die of cancer we say « oooh they never did anything for themselves, such a GOOD person, sacrifising themselves.»
We all want to be «good».
Its much better to become authentic and real.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Selfovesiva. You don’t have to be traumatised or a narcissist to play a role in the drama triangle however, your life position and script do indicate what games you might play. You may be interested in my videos on life position and the life script detailed below:
☐ Life Script: th-cam.com/video/FKEFgm0R0Sc/w-d-xo.html
☐ Life Positions: th-cam.com/video/rIpL4OMu1WA/w-d-xo.html
Best wishes, Teresa.
As my family's scapegoat I can tell you I usually was in the victim position or moving from rescuer to victim. If I moved from any of those positions to the persecutor it was due as a reaction to extreme abuse and not as the starting position.
I have noticed many times that I have helped people in a really bad situation and they have hated me afterwards because I saw them in their misfortunes or I was a witness of some flaw in them and it is true that it is never a good idea to help a narcissist but most of the times, you (or at least I) don't know it.
You've done a great job on these.
I'm now bingeing on them.
Concise, well articulated and illustrated.
Thank you so much Alisdair. Best wishes, Teresa.
Learning and applying this along with some other therapy can be life changing for the better
I come from a very dysfunctional childhood and often people have tried being my rescuer
It hasn't ended well
These days when ever a potential rescuer comes along I run like hell
I'm so much happier now and I've kept a handful of real friends who have supported me but shown me dignity to make my own decisions and vise versa
I’m pleased to hear you are so much happier, that’s great to hear. Best wishes, Teresa.
@@LewisPsychology thanks for posting
Well I have to admit I did enjoy switching from victim to persecutor for a short while, just enough to let my rescuers to get the message lol 🤣🤣🤣
These dynamics appear to be so 'operational' on a daily basis, that it sometimes seems very difficult to me to imagine relationships are even possible without them. (sadly) But it feels so exciting to give it to me (and to others, when we fully give it to ourself!) as a horizon. Thank you!
Thanks for your comment Pistache. It certainly is very easy to get pulled into the Drama Triangle. Best wishes, Teresa
@@LewisPsychology thank you. It is very unhelpful that so much psychotherapy is non directive. I’ve been rambling on for years. It’s clear psycho education that’s needed and connected into what Im saying… my experience more than once.
This way of being is central to what goes on in my family of origin and this is the “ milder” stuff. Yikes.
I’m a big fan of using psycho education in counselling/psychotherapy. Best wishes, Teresa.
When it comes to finding your place within the drama triangle, I can't recommend asking the people around you enough. You might be feeling like one, when you really appear like the other. Most people aren't able to reflect properly when they're heated, so if you want certainty on whats going on, address it!
Thanks for the detailed video! I get to completely understand the EXACT steps of the actions of the psychopath I encountered.
Thanks for this. FYI, the Winner's Triangle was developed by "Acey Choy."
Yes, Acey not Acery. Little typo in the video. Best wishes, Teresa.
Дякую, дуже цікаво)
Concepts I'm already aware of, visual, auditory reinforcing 👍
Excellent videos. As a therapist, I'm convinced, these short clips and needed for therapist and client education.
Great to hear, thank you. Best wishes, Teresa.
Thanks! Did you create anything on Emotionally Focused Therapy or Exposure and Response Prevention?@@LewisPsychology
I appreciate the great work you've done for making this video! Thank you! ❤
Thank you for your kind words of support. Best wishes, Teresa.
Great video ,very clearly explained. Thanks a lot !
Thank you, that’s great to hear. Best wishes, Teresa.
I love this video, very helpful!
That’s great to hear. Best wishes, Teresa.
So useful - thank you
That’s great to hear, thank you. Best wishes, Teresa.
Thank you so much for such a clear and concise explanation of the Drama Triangle. Would it be possible to make a video on the various games? Thank you!
Thank you for your kind comment. I keep a list of future video topics and games it certainly on the list. Best wishes, Teresa.
This is profoundly helpful information. I am such a rescuer and my husband is a victim. He switches to persecuter and I switch to victim. I keep taking the bait because I keep thinking that he just needs to understand how he is hurting me.
I have been able to share a few helpful concepts with him like: social-emotional learning, the window of tolerance and the concept of dysregulation / self-regulation, Non-violent communication, John Gottman’s Four Horses, etc.
Frankly, I’m not sure if I want to share this with him because I feel that he will just distort it and turn it around on me. For a long time he believed that his defensiveness was my fault because I wasn’t being gentle enough- distorting Gottman’s words.
For now I’m just going to focus on identifying the bait!
It sounds like you have a lot of insight. Yes, identifying the bait is a good way to proceed. Best wishes, Teresa.
It’s kind of hard to believe that anyone who would come to a public forum to trash their spouse doesn’t doesn’t see themselves ever playing the persecutor in their interactions. Just rescuer and victim. Bless your heart. 🙄
Thank you Teresa! Love your video and how you explained the Karpman triangle. Great channel as well and clear thumbnails :).
Would love to collaborate, if you are available for an interview.
Thank you for your kind words and invite. At the moment I’m running two companies and trying to get a regular TH-cam video out so as a result I'm working 7 days a week. I’m going to decline your very kind offer and I wish you all the best with you TH-cam channel. Best wishes, Teresa.
Could you please frame the Karpman Drama Triangle with IFS? It seems that "the switch" may be a protector part stepping. My husband and I are absolutely zooming around and around the triangle. We switch roles often. We are both doing IFS therapy and it would be tremendously helpful to understand how to move to a stable triangle. Is there a pattern of what parts are triggered? Thank you, Vanessa
Thanks for your question Vanessa. The drama triangle comes from the school of psychotherapy called Transactional Analysis (TA). One of the primary principles of TA is that you are made up of parts called Parent, Adult and Child. The idea is to step out of the drama triangle completely (Child and Parent energy and game playing) and move into the Adult. If I was framing this using Internal Family Systems (IFS) I would say that the drama triangle is played out by protector parts and you need to step out of the drama and into Self energy. My video on IFS explains more about the Self: th-cam.com/video/fzevlBt5HUA/w-d-xo.html
Best wishes, Teresa.
Thanks!
Thank you so much for your kind monetary support, its greatly appreciated. Best wishes, Teresa.
Thank you for the great teaching videos on TA. You are doing a great service to others. Have you done a video on what Adult problem-solving looks like? I see a lot on the imbalance of thoughts and behavior but not much on how to actually problem-solve as the Adult. We can nod our heads and agree this is ideal but then we don’t know how to do it. Any thing on that be helpful. Thx again.
Thanks for your kind comment Darren. I’m actually working on a video that will show how to strengthen the Adult. It’s out next Tuesday so watch this space. Thanks again for your support, Teresa.
Thank you for this. Currently the home I live in, which is fairly small, is going to be occupied by my mother and grandmother. It's drama triangle magnified.. I am ok though in that I see it.. and am practicing awareness and gratitude for having a roof over my head.. just not sure how to go about dealing with the hostility between them
It's good you notice the Drama Triangle dynamics as it then becomes easier to step away from it. Wishing you all the best regarding your situation. Teresa.
Wow explained so well ❤Can you please explain more about cross up ?
Thank you Bhar. I may make a video in which I explore this in more detail. Best wishes, Teresa.
Another mind blowing video for me. Drama triangle is very enlightening. Is it possible to say that the game can be played with 3 or more people also? (Parents and the kids or siblings)
Thank you EMEK. Yes, games can get quite complex and be played out with multiple players. Best wishes, Teresa.
Maybe it's no longer a game in this case but I think there is a fourth role, the teacher. I have sometimes needed to respond to agressive or victim presentations by engaging with the person's "game" but with the intent to help them snap out of it. I guess it's similar to the saviour role except it's different because it encourages the person to take more responsibility not less.
Where would this fit in your model? It feels like you're playing the game still... so I dunno
Oh it's at the end of the video hah
Any advice on working with someone in the victim/helpless surrender mode?
Yes, strengthen the Adult ego state. Please view my other TA videos for how to do this. Best wishes, Teresa.
Is this related to the book called infinite and finite games? Let me know if you want the link just look it up PDF but it’s a popular book that reminds me of this. Like this is a separate sect of that tree
No. It’s based on the work of Eric Berne, founder of Transactional Analysis. You may want to view the book Games People Play by Eric Berne. Best wishes, Teresa.
Isn't this a bit like DARVO in narcissistic relationships?
The drama triangle maps out psychological games and DARVO is a psychological game. You can map DARVO on the drama triangle. Best wishes, Teresa.