Does Preterism Fail? | Debate
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 เม.ย. 2023
- Does Preterism Fail? | Debate
Hold on to your hats, folks, because MythVision is about to make history yet again! Prepare yourself for a riveting debate between two formidable foes: the world-renowned Full Preterist Don K. Preston and the unyielding skeptic Mark Smith. These two heavyweights in the field of eschatology are sure to deliver a verbal jousting match for the ages, as they go head-to-head in a battle of biblical wits. So buckle up and get ready for some intellectual fireworks!
Don K. Preston Websites: www.eschatology.org, www.bibleprophecy.com, and www.donkpreston.com.
Mark Smith Website: JCnot4me.com
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#Preterism #mythvision #MythVisionPodcast #mvp #dereklambert - บันเทิง
Mark won’t even address biblical hermeneutics, but supposes he can defeat Preston from face-value ignorance. The word ignorance is harsh, but he absolutely ignores Old Testament wording that sets precedent.
I read Don k preston books and they are powerful !!! Tha k you for the debate❤
Abductive reasoning tells us that when people show up and start making apocalyptic predictions, they pertain to the time period the person is living in.
Great discussion, awesome show, it was handled very professionally. Don is as sharp as they come! I would hope to see him back on again some day.
I certainly look forward to another debate on Preterism!
Wins by loading the opponent under an avalanche of insults …
thats proof of a frightened cat backed into corner
I would love to see a debate with Don and somebody who knows and considers the Old Testament.
I like Don's explanation.There are some subjects that needs to be clarified but generally speaking I like Don's approach in understanding the Bible.
This was a ton of fun Derek! Thank you for this debate! Would love to see more!
Mark started out good but he lost the debate when he refused to acknowledge that the New Testament authors used Old Testament genre. He threw in the towel saying he didn't care about the Old Testament. From that point onward Don easily won this debate and even used Marks chart against him.
I'm not a Full Preterist and have no dogs in this fight. However Don came out the winner.
@Beanfairy The peace comes for those who have Christ in them, those who do not have Christ do not have peace.
Isaiah 65:13
Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Behold, My servants shall eat, But you shall be hungry; Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty; Behold, My servants shall rejoice, But you shall be ashamed;
@anon87745 OT: "what is this hell you speak of?"
Yep, I think Don would won... I would love to see the debate between two Christians not an atheist and a Christian. If i believed the bible, i would think Don won. Personally I do not worship Jesus or the Bible. I do think Mark was a little confrontational, even insulting or too emotional at times.
@@Lament8765 Preterism is a complete lie and it could lead those believers to hell in our day because we are close to the day of reckoning as foretold in Thessalonians and Revelation of great deceipt and falling away.end quote
The hypocrisy of the Non FP is they always claim to take it exactly literal, but when it comes to ALL the prophesies they do not take them literal. Thessalonians for example was written to the church in Thessalonica 2000 years ago, so why do you switch the audience relevance of the letter written to the Thessalonians and apply it to another fictional group of people who do not exist? Why do you reject that Paul said very clearly that some of the Thessalonians would still be alive at the coming of the Lord?
If you understood the bible prophesies, then you would see that you are preaching an anti Christ message, because hellfire punishment is a myth that comes from ignorance of not understanding the apocalyptic expressions used by the Holy Spirit.
@Beanfairy Like I said the folly is in taking the figurative expressions of the prophesies literally. Of course a person is correct if the scripture prophesies are literal and they are claiming them unfulfilled. The prophesies will never literally be fulfilled. That doesn't make the ignorant who do not understand them as figurative, to be correct!
Tacitus mentions this event, “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.”
I read about that. The city was surrounded by armies in the clouds, and the Temple doors flew open, and smoke poured out the Temple with trumpets and great sounds. Multiple people wrote of it. You can read their writing in the Jewish Library online.
@@camille11ize Yes. Everything in Josephus regarding AD66-70 matches the Bible PERFECTLY all the way down to who the "Man of Sin" ("Antichrist") was and why women should not be pregnant or with babies during that time. It's sad that current Christians don't want to enter the New Heaven & the New Earth! (Rev 22)
@@johno2277 Lol if you think this is the new earth, and that judgment has already passed. Youre lost
@@vladgor4099 What do you base that on? Not the Bible. Jesus said: Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does NOT come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here! ' or 'See there! ' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.
@@johno2277 Why are you talking about the kingdom of God. I know very well that it’s within us. I’m talking about the New Earth, New Heaven. And New Jerusalem of which we have descriptions and dimensions and is said to come down unto the New Earth. Then many descriptions of what will be on the New Earth.
When I was into Christianity, Preterism made better sense of things.
Agreed. The fall of Jerusalem to the Romans in 70AD would have been the end of the world to the early church.
Was? Please don't close your door to God.
@@JesusProtects Christianity and "God" are two completely different things. If Judaism is correct, Jesus is a false messiah and Christians violate the very first Commandment. If Hinduism is correct, there are many "gods". I personally believe it is utterly impossible to know if there is such an entity.
The atheist guy is so ignorant. It wasn't just Jewish culture that wrote in metaphoric language. The ENTIRE ancient world wrote like that. Has he not read anything written in the ancient world?
If You believe Jesus is God I would go along with the Gentleman saids Christians violae first commandment..I for one am one who believes Jesus was not God/man..I believe what Moses wrote...that Yhvh would raise up a prophet among their own brethern...so yes Jesus was legit, Fathers Unique Son and that all pertaining to ad70 fulfilled..absolutely..
Don definitely wins this debate. I’m no preterist, but the allegorical case was made quite thoroughly. I’m not sure why it’s such a common practice to dismiss allegory in favor of “plain language” when we’re literally dealing with a library of hyperbole and parabolic mythology where virtually no ancient authors spoke plainly. A biblical “cloud”, for example, is something that is generally used in context to BLUR vision, not see it plainly. Paul and Jesus themselves make various claims throughout the NT that their own language was cryptic so Don is on solid grounds there.
The way I understand a biblical 'cloud' is an expression that is revealing the power of God in the Spiritual realm being unleashed in judgment.
Absolutely. But what if we go 40 years back? The resurrection was a fulfilment of prophecy, right? Written in apocalyptic language, so an allegory for redemption, not an event that should be reduced to a literal story.
You should only Impose metaphor on the text when it tells you it’s a metaphor or comes something. Else why believe anything is literal? There’s no logic to the thought process.
@@ikeowens4455 yes Peter did say that the prophesies were spoken in a language given to the prophets by the Holy Spirit and wasn't the prophets using their literal language of the time. Biblical consistency in applying interpretations of the same figuratively spoken prophesies throughout the whole of the prophets, is key to understanding and honest interpretations first and foremost. God is not the author of confusion.
@@ikeowens4455 Because that’s typically not how literature works, especially the ancient texts. I mean when Romeo says “it is the east and Juliet is the sun” you’ll notice that Shakespeare doesn’t have to break the narrative to inform the reader that it was a metaphor, and people shouldn’t believe that Juliet is really the sun. It should stand to reason that all mythology should be taken as parable. If there’s a kernel of historical truth to it, that only makes the parable more interesting. But the literal aspect of the literature is the least relevant.
John Dominic Crossan makes this case in his book “The Power of Parable”, which he uses the example of the Emmaus Road Story (Luke 24:28) as a clear parable without the author’s implication of a parable or metaphor. You might consider checking that one out.
Don, you're opening the scriptures in a way that I can finally understand for the first time in 35 years!
Honestly, this helps me appreciate Derrick more. People like this Preterist guy are really able to make a cogent *sounding* argument for their case, which will resonate with someone who is already immeshed in a Christian mindset. Only by going into the kind of detail that Smith does (which, I presume Derrick also did in along his spiritual quest) can the Christian extricate him/herself from this philosophical/psychological quagmire. My hat is off to those who have.
Great debate! Thank you.
It was 1290 days from destruction of temple until Romans left Jerusalem. They remained in the vicinity and anyone who came iin early was taken as slaves. Massada fell 45 days later and the Romans left the area for good and it was safe to return. This fulfilled Daniel "Blessed are those who come to the end of 1335 days."
Can you please guide me to the sources for this info?
Mark needed to be saved from this debate.
Mark didn't prove anything, he just used strawman arguments and assertions.
Do you believe this happened in the first century? Matthew 24:30-31: “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then ALL the peoples of the earth (NOT Jerusalem) will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, (NOT Jerusalem) from one end of the heavens to the other." IF this happened in the first century and ALL the peoples of the earth saw the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, I think it would be the most spectacular event in all of history and historical records around the entire world would be rife with reports of dumbfounded people in total shock at the most amazing sight ever! Notice it says ALL the people of the earth and not just those around Jerusalem. Or are you saying All the peoples of the earth is a metaphor for people around Jerusalem. Also, Peter says, "The Day of the Lord comes as a thief, the heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will melt in fervent heat, and the earth and all its works will be laid bare. Sorry, this did NOT happen in the first century Jerusalem. How do you make some things metaphors and others literal, like passages in Revelation that say certain events will happen soon, or quickly? Also, the word translated soon in Revelation (these things will soon happen) is according to Strong’s the Greek word “tachei” and it means: quickness, speed; hastily, immediately. So, it can be a reference to a particular event happening at a quick pace once it starts.
This guy Mark immediately started to behave like an insulting politician .
Unrelenting sneering comments make Mark's presentation unendurable. Something a bit more dispassionate and a tad respectful would have been much better.
Don Preston wiped the floor with Mark. Mark needs to study.
A great debate. Don brought it together very well considering the respectable time element. Thank you, Derek, for allowing this debate.
By the way, Mark, I, too, have a Nazarene denomination background, although not currently.
Does the Bible actually say Christ would reign on earth for 1,000 years? Are we sure it was supposed to be earth and not heaven?
On Jesus speaking with Caiaphus the high priest.
The Greek, as Brother Don said, is plural. Jesus said "You [all] will see the Son of Man coming." He was speaking both to the high priest and the assembled Sanhedrin Council.
But now someone will say: "But Caiaphus died in 47AD. So not 'all' saw Jesus' Coming."
Correct, Caiaphus died in 47AD. Jesus was effectively predicting his coming and that the Sanhedrin Council would see it.
Jesus had said in another place: "Not all of you will taste of death till the Son of Man comes [or be come]."
Jesus knew that some who heard him would die before the Parousia (coming of the Lord). In fact, he foretold some would be martyred.
Jesus didn't predict if or when any Sanhedrin Council members would die. (I'm certain he knew some would before 70AD).
Think of it like this: When Jesus spoke in the presence of Caiaphus and the Sanhedrin Council, it was not unlike someone speaking before, say, the U.S. Congress today. Not one person, but "you [all]" in the Greek.
As Brother Don said, Jesus was speaking to that Jewish governing body, not just Caiaphus.
The opposition to the Christians, coming from the Sanhedrin Council, continued through the years and up to 70AD.
That some of these died before 70AD is essentially inconsequential and irrelevant. But the fact remains that: There were successors of deceased Sanhedrin members, of that continuing governing body. These (all of them) saw the Coming of the Lord.
Did they see it literally? Yes and No. Not the literal physical body of Jesus flying down on a literal cloud. But Yes, as in: In the Old Testament a Day and/or Coming of the Lord happened when God deployed nations to execute his judgment on other nations. Real, literal, historic events.
As Brother Don said, there was a "sign" when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem, about to destroy it. This pointed to Jesus' predictions were about to come to pass.
Signs point to something. When Jerusalem fell, that sign came into its fulfillment. The judgment of Christ was executed by way of the Romans. Proof that Christ reigned from heaven. The Jews wanted war and they got it.
Again, as Brother Don kept saying: Never did God (nor Jesus) literally and bodily fly down to earth. This is Jewish apocalyptic language. Symbolism depicting real historical events.
Apocalyptic language continues today. Not long ago, a radical Muslim exclaimed "The United States will fall with a bolt of lightning!" Did he mean there would be one huge bolt that would hit the whole Continental U.S. and skip on over to Hawaii and Alaska? Of course not. This is symbolic, hyperbolic imagery ... apocalyptic language.
A plural “you” included Caiaphas, so if he died before 70, it’s a failed prophecy. It’s really very simple. You can deny that “you” includes Caiaphas but that is not what the text implies or says.
Well spoken my friend. Agreed 100 percent. Preterist teaching is the only one that makes sense consistently. It doesn't add 2000 year gaps in Daniels 70 weeks, or manipulate Jesus' words. Thx!
They saw it with eyes of faith. Amen
It's amazing that Mark doesn't understand this, or even see the logical possibility that what was meant in Acts refers to Jesus' God nature, not his human nature. He came the first time as a baby, as helpless and dependent as you or I, and in Acts 1 Jesus is leaving this earth to go "into the clouds" and He will return "in the clouds" at AD70 in great power like the Father had come in the O.T. destructions of Egypt, Babylon and Edom.
So, in great victory he leaves the earth; in great power, he comes to execute his prophesied judgment against his idolatrous harlot and put an end to old covenant Israel and all its elements/rudiments of worship, including an end to animal sacrifice and the priesthood. Prophecy fulfilled.
Acts 1:9-11 - After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight. They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”
He's NOT coming the next time (AD70) in the same way he came as an infant. He's coming in the same way he left, with all the power and glory of God. Don't you think it takes the power and glory of God to ascend into heaven? And babies aren't victors, and neither do they don't execute judgment on nations. But someone raised from the dead by the glory of God is fully capable.
Think on it.
What good is a supernatural appearance if no one can detect it? The preterist case is ridiculous. Any claim can be propped up by appealing to allegory or invisible fulfillment.
Oh there’s evidence still standing today if you look.
The less evidence of observed phenomena we have, the stronger the case for Preterism becomes!
Pseudo-Hegesippus also describes the coming of Christ on the clouds with His mighty angels at that time when he writes, “A certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw."
1:17:11 Please don't malign the wonderful Octopus. My son and I love them.
And what is Marks point? All he’s done is insulted his component. He hasn’t said anything of substance.
There are Soo many references in the Word of God to destroy the twisted views of the false doctrines of preterism, but I will just present one for them. Please explain away Zechariah chapters 12, 13 and 14 which all align with Revelation chapter 19 and 20.
It's the destruction of Jerusalem and Israel and the Old Covenant, and the full establishment of the New Covenant.
Mark was out of his league in this one. Good job Don.
Mark makes up strawman arguments then says they're ridiculous. I agree Mark, your preterist strawmen are ridiculous!
The Don absolutely ripped Mark a new one here IMO.
Thanks for the great debate Derek!
I think there was a missed opportunity to bring up the OT references to volcanic action being the visible events expected in the prophesies, which didn't happen.
Loud, fire, earth shaking, etc.
There’s textual reasons why Jehovah is thought to have been a volcanic deity. The “day of the lord” sounds awfully like a volcanic eruption- fire, smoke, earthquakes ect.
The end of their world, like the end of the Babylonian world or the Assyrian world, is made with allusions that those people all understood as the cataclysmic destruction of everything. Sun moon and stars destroyed = their world destroyed. It's how they passed ideas to each other. Unless one thinks anyone actually thinks the literal earth has been wiped out 4 times in the last 3,000 years. Its just how they spoke.
Mark needs a hug.
lol amen
1:32:30 cross
Covenant Eschatology is Israel's eschatology - the word refers to "the last things." The idea of Christian Eschatology is proved false by its nature - the kingdom of God is without end, an eternal kingdom (Isaiah 9:7, Dan 2:44), and a kingdom without end has no "last things," by definition. The logic is simple. Test it.
Thank you for hosting this debate. According to the Scriptures, our fight is the good fight to keep the Faith. This is on display here. This debate reinforces and uplifts my Faith in the Messiah,
why He came into the physical realm, and that all prophecy is Fulfilled in Him, exactly as He said
it would be. If we deny the Messiah - His death, Resurrection, Ascension, Glorification, and
Parousia - if we deny the Son, then we deny the Father. All is Fulfilled in Christ; we are to Rest in Him, follow His Commandments of Love, and follow His Way - live His Gospel.
Don Preston did a great job in explaining the Scriptures; hopefully modern-day Christianity will listen and study what Don is putting on the table for all to read and debate. Peace and blessings.
I found this debate practically useless, because of the fact that a person without the spirit of Christ cannot comprehendd the things of the spirit.
S.A.D. Preterist Glasses -
My opinion on this debate: Both sides are cuckoo, and both have an agenda..
The Atheist agenda is well-known and understood, but what is the Preterist agenda?
It's unreasonable
This opponent is against himself with his methods and behavior. He is for himself to win and not for the truth.
Smith at 1:36:10 is demonstrating ' begging the question ' with his ' what other words could be used to make Jesus' appearing to the human eye ' remark . Dr. Brown did the same begging of the question in a debate with Dr. Preston .
Why does Mark necessarily see things in such a wooden-literal sense?
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Contrast that with this instruction for a Christian teacher:
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
He's an atheist
Caiaphas had in his tomb 2 Roman crucifixion nails. One was in his bone box as nd one was outside it. They don't mention it in the museum but they are being kept at the Tel Aviv University.
Sarcasm and disrespect is all I'm getting from this guy. He seems to be motivated by his own dissatisfaction in accepting the scriptures for what they actually mean.
Josephus: Jewish Wars 66AD: Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city. ...on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
Preterists see through this. The unbeliever is the one lying.
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the οικουμενην should be taxed.
This verse biblically defines οικουμενην to be the Roman empire.
Romans 14:17 through the Holy Spirit. Somthing a non believer can not exerience because they can not inherent the Kingdom of God.
@Beanfairy this is failure to understand apocalyptic language again. Swords into plowshares was fulfilled in the Old Testament times. This was typical exaggerated language that the prophets would often employ when promising that peace and blessings would be brought to Israel or Judah after the pending difficult times had passed. These difficult times are described in chapter 1.
Isa 1:24-27 NHEB 24 Therefore the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel, says: “Ah, I will get relief from my adversaries, and avenge myself of my enemies; 25 and I will turn my hand against you, and I will purge away your dross, and I will take away all your slag. 26 I will restore your judges as at the first, and your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you shall be called ‘The city of righteousness, a faithful town.’ 27 Zion shall be redeemed with justice, and her converts with righteousness.
God used the Assyrians first and then later the Babylonians to punish and purify Israel. He did this again in the Greek invasions under Antiochus Epiphanies. God allowed the enemy armies to attack and defeat his people but then brought them through it all with a good outcome - the Israelites became more obedient.
So how does all this apply to Jesus Christ? Well, first of all, none of the New Testament writers quote this passage. So we are already on somewhat shaky ground to apply it to Christ ourselves. However, if we are to apply it to Christ, it is perfectly appropriate to spiritualize it. Christ's entrance into this world 2,000 years ago has brought a great deal of peace and light into the world.
@@benjohnson8269 the physical kingdom of God does not expand through physical conquest any more
@Beanfairy what passage says the Messiah was to bring in this kind of peace you're demanding?
It means "community", often translated by "Church".
Most likely it refers to people going to the Temple, because that's where taxes would be taken.
we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
Yup. It happened in 66AD. See my comment above. ... there are more witnesses than those two but Jesus said two is sufficient.
THE NEW BODY DOES NOT DIE IT IS LIKE JESUS BODY WE HAVE NOT GOT IT YET@@johno2277
They did not understand element like we do today with our science.
Dude. The Bible isn’t a science textbook. What do you expect?
@@presupping4eva If the God of the bible is who he says he is then he is omniscient riiiight? So he would know all the elements on the Periodic table including the ones we don't know yet.
@@mugglescakesniffer3943 Oh my gosh. Yes, He is omniscient. What’s your point?
@@presupping4eva um read my previous point?
@@mugglescakesniffer3943 So what’s the point though? Yes, He is omniscient, so?
2:07:00 classy of Mark Smith
Get an end time rapture scholar to challenge the Preterist... THEN, you got a debate.
Futurism is fantasy, Preterism is fact
Well in Acts chapter 17 The Bereans searched the scriptures ( OLD TESTAMENT) daily to see if everything Paul and Silas were preaching was true..And it clearly says THE GREEKS were searching the OLD TESTAMENT. Then it says THE JEWS from Thessalonica? So Jews were in Thessalonica. When they heard about Paul preaching to the Bereans they came there and stirred up the crowd? Could it be those Jews could’ve persecuted the Thessalonians? I think this clearly refutes some of Marks arguments.
The danger of many expectations to come that had already come
I can see why he needs a half hour.
I personally think Don's use of 'apocalyptic language' @ 59:05 to explain the 'never since nor ever again' scenario is unnecessary. From what I've read of Josephus's account of the goings on within the temple, it was a horrifical and disastrously bloody event. The principle of fact that the Jewish nation inflicted this atrocity upon itself can be easily regarded as something our modern world has never experienced and I certainly don't recall any historic atrocities that were this bloody....because again, they did this to one another. It wasn't one nation doing something to another. It wasn't efficient (if you'll pardon the phrase) like any Ukrainian famine or extermination in Cambodia or even the concentration camps in Germany and Poland.
It may be academically accurate but it was also physically accurate.
He keeps pretending like the Christians didn't know the Old Testament. Timothy knew the Holy scriptures from his youth! Many of the Christians would have been Jews who Paul won over from the synagogues where he preached. These doubtless would have gone on to be the teachers in the churches and would have taught the pagan converts the Old Testament scriptures and explained them.
I just can't
I would like to see the discussion between 2 Christians. It would be better matched.
You can. Steve Gregg debated him.
Yes a debate between a futurist would be more appropriate to get to the bottom of this issue on a spiritual level..
Boyd on sure is thirsty and I noticed how the bottle of water was shaking in his hands that's what liars do they get all sweaty thirsty and shaky because they know they're lying
1:42:48 are Ashurah and Ashoreth and Asherah are they different or the same. I thought Asherah was Yahweh's consort.
Hummm "A Rickety Staircase" ???
Thank you for your comments. I especially appreciate the one about it would mean the whole Earth. /// Now sit back & watch the Preterista cult members gang up on you.
(Double Dipping)
Mark Smith's argument, the quotation from J.S. Russell (on "the plain meaning of scripture") ... pertained to the concept of "dual fulfillment of prophecies." This idea has been around for a while.
Its 'rationale' is that the coming/judgment of 70AD was something like a "minature judgment day" ... a 'type' of another future final judgment day.
What Russell was saying is that the plain reading of the text(s) show no trace whatsoever of this 'dual fulfillment' idea. That the Bible plainly says there would be one, and only one, coming of the Lord.
Just as with good Bible study methodology, mis-quoting texts simply will not do.
Revelation was written with no reference to the Old Testament and the Gentile audience would have taken it all non-figuratively? Really? Smith's argument FAILS from the git-go.
Do preterist believe in eternal burning suffering of the unsaved or do they believe you are burned up and done ?
argumentation is only one appeal, I can't remember all the ways to appeal from the greek logic, but emotional appeals are another. I think there are 5 types.
I'm not a full preterist (yet?), but Don's argumentation is interesting and compelling. My biggest hold up is when Jesus promised that "the meek shall inherit the EARTH." Full preterism seems to have the inheritance being heaven only. Any insights?
Even though I agree with Mark Smith's position, I do think he made several mistakes in his arguments. Don Preston was correct in some of his arguments such as 1 Thes. not describing a Rapture like Evangelicals would understand it.
So how does 1. Thessalonians describe the Rapture accurately?
@@remnant8898 It doesn't describe the Rapture at all as there is no concept of the Rapture in the Bible. It states the Christians will greet Jesus up in the sky when he returns for his Second Coming and then return to Earth with him. This is similar to situations where a city's inhabitants will greet a visiting dignitary out side the city's gates and take him into the city.
@@FloydFp First the concept of the Rapture (catching away, seizing up) is clearly evident in the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation.... And are you saying that will ascend to meet Jesus in the air, just to come back down to the earth on Mount Zion? No wedding supper, just forgetting what Jesus said about preparing a place for us that where HE is, we will also be? Sorry, but the Second coming and the catching away of the Saints are two different events.
A 5' 5" inch Jewish man?? He not only diminishes the Man spiritually, he diminishes Him physically. Go do some study of the Shroud of Turin, Don!
Will Mark get another chance to embarrass himself or is this a one time only debate?
I would like to hear, in detail, why Don thinks Paul wasn't not a Gnostic.
why would Paul be a gnostic?
@@ophiuchus9071 Paul only witnessed Jesus as an incorporeal spirit up in the air. Even though their earthly lifetimes were contemporaneous, Paul never met Jesus in the flesh and wrote almost nothing about his earthly life as described in the gospels. Paul used words and phrases such as I Corinthians 2 that are gnostic ideology. He disdained fleshly life, and looked forward to a purely spiritual realm.
Preterism is so obviously true to me that i struggle to understand how anyone can not be a preterist. The NT clearly promises a 1st century return of Christ. Either Preterism is true or Jesus was a false prophet. I don't see a 3rd option
The simplest and least complicated option is "Jesus was a false prophet". There have been hundreds of these throughout history. Just add Jesus to the list. Preterism has to twist and contort way too many bible verses to possibly be true.
@@JCnot4meSimplest and least complicated for simpletons yes.
If Jesus lied, then He cannot be God according to Hebrews 6: 18 "For God cannot lie". I believe Jesus was Truthful to His contemporaries and therefore is God and was God in the flesh at that time.
This even got TDS. Bravo
This would have been an interesting debate if the other side showed up 😏
When Mark said, "You don't have to get all technical and Old Testament with this stuff!" he lost my attention and, in my opinion, lost the debate at the moment.
The second guy says 30 minutes come straight out with insults and starts claiming everything is invisible yeah not even a seven-year-old atheist would believe that
I believe it, and I'm seven years old.
"Three Shell Game" ?
Facepalming right now, this debate is not respected. An atheist is debating one of the positions, seriously 🫤. Would suggest getting Brock Hollett instead to defend this position.
17:00 What is the definition of "world" at the time and how could The Americas be called the "New World" So, world does not necessarily mean the whole planet then from their viewpoint.
Yeah, like why do we call two teams from two different states, in America, coming together to play baseball the world series?
Fun fact: The author of 2 Peter--who was not the apostle; he was martyred more than two decades earlier--and the “scoffers” he excoriates BOTH believed the Parousia had not yet occurred. The writer did NOT tell them it had occurred years earlier with the destruction of Jerusalem (2 Peter was written toward the end of the first century); and he did NOT tell them they were mistaken in believing that it would come visibly. No. It couldn’t be more obvious he expected a visible return of Jesus--just like the “scoffers” did.
And the author’s explanation for why the "scoffers" were mistaken in thinking the Parousia should’ve already occurred is strictly from hunger (3:8). No other NT writer ever so much as hinted that it might well occur in the far distant future. (In the author’s telling, “with the Lord one day is as a thousand years” and a thousand years, etc.)
Consider: Jesus “called to him the multitude with his disciples” (Mark 8:34), and said that some of them would not die before “they see the kingdom of God come with power” (9:1). I ask: How many in that illiterate multitude do you suppose imagined he would return invisibly, that he was only speaking figuratively? How many do you suppose took his words in any other sense than literally, that it was something they’d see with their very own eyes? To ask those questions is to answer them.
If Jesus meant that the Parousia would not come visibly, wouldn’t he have flat out said so-so as not to mislead? After all, didn’t he claim to be truth incarnate?
"wouldn’t he have flat out said so-so as not to mislead? After all, didn’t he claim to be truth incarnate?"
You say this knowing that Jesus gave parables all the time...are you serious lol
@@vladgor4099 Yes, har har, I'm serious. I stand by what I said. A parable? You believers and your pathetic explainaways. He claimed to be truth incarnate, but what he was was a failed doomsday prophet, Smell the toast: he's never coming back.
Mark Smith started off very unprofessional and childish. His charts looked like something he had put together in primary school. He didn’t stand a chance against this most intelligent Don Preston.
Two types of death two types of Resurrection
Short poem about this debate:
DON
WON
Request: It would be interesting to hear Don and Derek discuss preterism and why Derek has abandoned it.
I would love to see that conversation as well
"Preterism fails because it requires dishonesty." ?
Mark Smith's "[preterism] fails to save the savior from his own failed prophesies about returning in the first century" is the crux of everything and renders the debate topic kind of meaningless. The debate could just as easily be about how any eschatological paradigm fails, because the underlying complaint will always be that Jesus is a false prophet. Preterism, hyperpreterism, futurism, premillenialism, postmillenialism, amillenialism, dispensationalism - *nothing* will fix that!
Resurrected souls coming out of the underworld at the resurrection wouldn’t necessarily be something that people could see. Souls are probably invisible.
Don said in the debate his belief is that it was a resurrection from being spiritually dead not physical death. Which makes since. God told Adam and Eve THE DAY you eat of the tree you will die. (Spiritual death or separation from God)
Don was just incredible. Anybody who still waiting for a future return of Christ to come surfing down on a cloud timer with stars falling from the sky etc etc is making the plane words of Jesus into a false prophet I don't know how anybody could not see that
Biblical cosmology, if it's incorrect, the Bible can be disregarded as the word of God....we can trust our Creator, he knows how He made this realm
Mark's point about Acts one in my mind ends the matter. There is no way anyone could read acts 1 and conclude they didnt see him float up into the sky.
Mark just had a horrible cheesy slide show and no argument!
What if.... Jerusalem isn't where we're told it is?
Mark’s intro was brutal. I really enjoyed listening to the debate (which Mark won by WO) and I’m looking forward to seeing more
Mark only proved himself to be exactly as God's word describes Atheists. We know the Bible is true because it describes Atheists with 100-percent accuracy.
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
@@jeremiah5319 LOL
I totally agree with Mark and sympathise with his anger, but he is coming off as a jerk. I think he could stand to tone it down a *little*
@@fre2725 - Asking a jerk to "tone it down a bit" is like throwing gasoline on a hot fire or tempting Gozer the Destructor.
Mark did not win. He clearly doesn't understand biblical language. If Mark is correct, which he's not, then Jesus was a false prophet.
Very surprising closing statement by Mr. Smith. Many of his arguments were answered by DKP but clearly fell on deaf ears. DKP did a phenomenal job.
I agree. Like he doesn’t even believe the Bible. Jesus came to fulfill the Old Testament so why would he ignore it?
When they solve this problem, ask them to demonstrate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!
Nice, also have an atheist give 1 example of something changing its, "kind".. not attributes.
Debating with Mark is a waste of time.
Mr. Smith seems convinced that the Old Testament is irrelevant when examining the New Testament. After all, he asserts, it was addressed only to pagans not Jews. Does he not realize that Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, refers multiple times throughout his epistles to Old Testament texts? This is also true for all the NT writers. Paul was certainly writing to the twelve tribes scattered among the Roman Empire who were intimately familiar with the Old Testament. So, the fact that Mark ignores the OT he has no idea of the context and no hope of accurately interpreting the scripture.