Solid Evidence The New Testament Is Imitating Homers Odyssey!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- Is the Gospel of Mark Imitating Homer's Odyssey in his literary creation of Jesus?
Grab Richard Miller's book Resurrection and Reception in Early Christianity
👉 amzn.to/35FqNYf
Grab Dennis MacDonald's books
👉 amzn.to/3yoDYRi
Subscribe to our second channel
@mythvisionTV
==============================
*SIGN UP FOR RECOMMENDED ONLINE COURSES HERE*
Dr. James Tabor's "Jesus and The Dead Sea Scrolls" mythvisionpodcast.com/dss
Historical problems with The Bible & Quran (Bart Ehrman and Javad Hashmi)
mythvisionpodcast.com/bible&q...
Dr. Jodi Magness "Archaeology in the Time of Jesus"
mythvisionpodcast.com/timeofj...
Dr. James Tabor's "Creating Jesus: Why Mark’s Gospel Was Forgotten?"
www.mythvisionpodcast.com/fir...
Dr. Robyn Faith Walsh's course "Paul's Legacy"
www.mythvisionpodcast.com/paulslegacy
Dr. Robyn Faith Walsh's course "The Gospels Masterclass"
mythvisionpodcast.com/gospels
Sign up here for Dennis MacDonald's course "Reading The Gospels With One Eye on Greek Poetry - www.mythvisionpodcast.com/hom...
Dr. Kipp Davis Course "The Real Ancient Israelite Religions"
mythvisionpodcast.com/israeli...
Dr. Richard Carrier's Course "New Testament Studies For Everyone."
www.mythvisionpodcast.com/nt-...
Dr. M. David Litwa's course - "The Ancient Greek Mysteries & Christianity"
www.mythvisionpodcast.com/mys...
Dr. Dale C. Allison Jr's course - "The Quest For The Historical Jesus" www.mythvisionpodcast.com/jes...
SIGN UP FOR BART EHRMAN COURSES BELOW:
"The Genius of The Gospel of Matthew"
mythvisionpodcast.com/matthew
Dr. Jodi Magness "Archaeology in the Time of Jesus"
mythvisionpodcast.com/timeofj...
Scribal Corruption of Scripture -
mythvisionpodcast.com/corruption
Mark course "The Unknown Jesus"
mythvisionpodcast.com/unknown...
"Finding Moses"
www.mythvisionpodcast.com/moses
"Other Virgin Births In Antiquity"
www.mythvisionpodcast.com/vir...
7 hour resurrection debate Bart Ehrman vs Mike Licona "Resurrection" www.mythvisionpodcast.com/res...
Genesis "In The Beginning" www.mythvisionpodcast.com/gen...
"Christmas" www.mythvisionpodcast.com/chr...
"Did Jesus call himself God" www.mythvisionpodcast.com/bart
======================================
RECOMMENDED ONLINE COURSES HERE 👉 linktr.ee/mythvision
**GET RECOMMENDED BOOKS HERE: 👉 amzn.to/35FqNYf
Please consider helping support MythVision's work by joining the Patreon or contributing a one-time donation through my links below:
MythVision Website: 🔥 mythvisionpodcast.com/
MythVision Patreon: 👉 / mythvision
MythVision Paypal: 👉 www.paypal.me/dereklambert7
Cashapp: 👉 $rewiredaddiction
Venmo: 👉 @Derek-Lambert-9
Email MythVision: 👉 mythvisionpodcast@gmail.com
👉👉 Checkout MVP Courses to find new and upcoming online courses:
mvp-courses.com/
===========================
#mythvision #Christianity #Bible
Blasphemy law and tradition against blasphemy is what kept people from saying and talking about the parallels. People are afraid of hell
Aaaaand... You've unlocked the key to "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". To say the gospels and Acts were patterned after Greek mythological stories, the tragedians, etc., is to say that they were written by evil plagiarists led astray by Satan instead of by holy and devout men who wrote down the Truth™ as guided by the Holy Ghost. 👻
Tragically this ecclesiastical tendency has roots going far back and branches that shade us to this day.
I forgot which Christian father replied to a parishioner who asked
“what was god doing before he created the world?”
His reply was “God was preparing a special hell for people who ask such pernicious questions!”.
This is traditionally what happens when New Testament scholars aren’t versed in ancient languages and cultures. Once a biblical and ancient near eastern scholar understands these aspects, their entire world view of the New Testament as well as Homer changes them in a way they can’t unsee. I’d suggest both scholars dig even further back into history to see where both Homer and the New Testament writers get their inspiration from, specifically ancient culture stories both pre and post flood.
"Before you embark on this journey I warn you that you will learn things you cannot unlearn."
Why is it that critical scholars would think that it's futile to try to understand Genesis without the literary context of Gilgamesh, the near-eastern gods and their creation myths but it's rare, bordering on fringe, to put the gospels in the literary context of Homer, the classical world’s demigods and their translation myths.
Pythagoras means Heart of the Serpent, he was born in Sidon, a fishing Port in Phoenicia. His mother recieved a message from the Oracle of Delphi that he would become a great Leader and Teacher. Sidon means Kingdom of the Fish, and the Essenes, who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls, worshipped Pythagoras. The Sarcophagus of Eschmun III found in Sidon names him as the Widow's Scion, aka Hiram Abiff, the Founder of Freemasonry, of which Tyre was the premier Capital (at least equal to Thebes).
In 911BC Rameses II married the Queen of Sidon, home of Jezebel (Daughter or consort of Baal, basically "Queen") founding Neo Assyrian Babylon, an alliance between Egypt and Hiram, father of Jezebel and King of Assyria, and Egypt, forming the Phoenician colonies and building the first Temple of Melqart to commemorate the alliance.
The Si in Sidon is the basis of the Latin Exe, or X, and is the basis of the Cross, or Chi Rho that Constantine painted on his shields. Also known as the Cross of Tyre, or Cross of Baal, being Ra-El, or Ba'El. Oddly enough irrational numbers can also be mapped using Euler's number, producing a Templar Cross in the process: a map of where Eclipses are most likely to occur. This cross can also be seen around the neck of Nimrod in Assyria, and is consistent with the Union Jack, and Solstice Calendar found in the Vatican Shiva Lingam.
Shiva is the Hebrew word for 7, their culture also found its way to Japan (via the Phillipines) ultimately becoming Shintoism.
It was the Phoenicians who gave their name to the Pole Star, which they used to Navigate the Oceans using the Zodiac, thats what the Antikythera mechanism was for, and with it they wrote the Byblos Baal, what we now call the Bible. The first form of the Bible was written in 325BC and called the Vaticanus Greacus, or Son of the Sacred Serpent, a reference to Sirius, the basis of the Sothic Calendar, which uses a Hexidecimal or base 60 system found in all the Megalithic sites around the world.
In the second century AD astronomer Valentinus Vettori transcribed it into a Lunar chart of 13 houses, what we now call the Zodiac. Horoscope means Star Watcher, and the Phoenician word for Saturn, or El, was Israel or El, (Fruit) of Isis and Ra. Alternatively El is the Father of Ra the Sun and Consort of Isis the Earth, aka El is the Moon.
El is the primary God of the Phoenicians, representing the offspring of Egypt, and his consort Astarte or Ishtar represents the Assyrian half of the alliance. It may be possible to trace lineages and alliances through the naming of gods, which can be traced all the way to Ireland and the Vikings, and to Indonesia and the Americas, even as far away as New Zealand and Australia.
It denotes Sirius as Son of Orion and Pleaides, which sits at 33 degrees of the Zodiac. The basis of the Sothic (dir Seth) Calendar of the Egyptians. The New Moon in this position marks Rosh Hashanah, the Egyptian, Celtic, Phoenician, and Assyrian New Year, the first New Moon of September, which is called September because it's the 7th House of the Zodiac, when the Sun is in Ophiuchus.
The Phoenix, Benben, or Bennu is the Egyptian word for Heron, a Feathered 'Serpent'. It baptised itself in frankincense and myrrh at BaalBek, and then alights atop the Pyramid, upon the Holy Grail, or Altar of Ra every 630 years to take three days off the calendar during the course of the first New Moon of Nisan, which means "Prince". The Capstone of Pyramids is even called the Benben or Bennu.
The Phoenix is found in all religions, which are all Astrological Allegory for the Moon travelling through the Constellations, as a soul migrating from body to body, this is the basis of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth, or the Hero's Journey. The various planets no doubt play their own roles as portents, omens, and aspects, this astrology is the science of the Bronze age, and lasted all the way up to the 20th Century. Reincarnation was an early teaching of the Christian Church, and likely relates to the lineage of Kings (The Pan is Dead, long live Pan!)
Phoenicians represent the interim step between Egypt and Greece, their artisans and culture exceeding that of the Greeks, who literally adopted the Phoenician Alphabet, which we still use to this day, sounding out words phonetically. Phoenician is aliiterated in Venetian, and Vikings, being Kings of the Sea.
The Bennu is the Egyptian Phoenix, to Phoenicians the Hoyle, no different to the traditions of the Etruscans, who saw birds as sacred, just as the Celts. Hebrew and Iber as in Iberia have the same root meaning over, as in overseas, as in those who travel "over the sea." A colony called Iberia also appears on the Eastern shores of the Black Sea, where the same Dolmens and Megalithic culture originating in Ireland and Brittany appeared circa 4500BC.
_Phoenician_ means Scions of the Phoenix, the first Bible: Vaticanus Greacus Son of the Sacred Serpent (Prince). Then there's the Essenes, Sons of Light, the Tuatha De Danaan, Sons of Light, Annunaki, Sons of Light, Arthur Pendragon means Arthur Son of the Dragon; Chertoff is Russian for "Son of the Devil" and Dracula also means Son of the Dragon, Masons have been known at times to call themselves the "Brotherhood of the Great White Serpent". The Ziggurat of Anu also denotes her as a great white Serpent, while New Grange and the Bru na Boinne in Ireland (4000BC) coated buildings with white quartz to denote the Moon. The Moon itself travels outside the Solar Elliptic by 5 degrees, which means it passes through specific constellations in a serpentine fashion that is always changing, but repeats every 19 years, the time it took to train a Druid or Magi, Magi meaning "Teacher" the Phoenix is also associated with this sacred number 19.
The name "Pharoah" means "Great House" or "House of Light" and Cairo used to be called Babel. Pharaoh's themselves wore a hooded crown representing feathers, just as Native American Chiefs, ie the Feathered Serpent, they were also called the Commander in Chief. Aztecs also had Serpent Kings, (Canaan means Serpent Kings, and Sidon was a Son of Canaan, and Great Grandson of Noah) who were called to lead with cunning and guile, being the very virtue by which they claim the title in the first place; but to be seen in public as just and diplomatic.
"As wise as Serpents, but gentle as Doves" the old Egyptian flag of an Eagle attacking a Snake is also reflected in the Modern Mexican flag, denoting the Constellations of Serpentis (13th sign of the Zodiac) and Aquila.
The dimensions and 12 mathematical constants of the Great Pyramid are also expressed in New Grange, and Stonehenge, as well as in Watson Brake, (2500BC) and Teotihuacan, which correlates to the Phoenician/ Sumerian Hexidecimal system, which is what our modern systems of time are based on. In fact it unlocks a kind of fractal pattern that is reflected throughout creation.
Officially no one knows who invented astrology, the zodiac, navigation by the stars, and time keeping. But whoever built the pyramids, and pioneered the 24hr clock in Egypt 5000 years ago also knew the exact dimensions of the Earth, as well as the speed of light. These calculations can all be made using these Megalithic sites as surveyors use a theodolite. Specifically Teotihuacan, which sits 180 degrees opposite Cairo, and has the exact same footprint. The ideal positions to determine the speed of light using the transit of Venus, by which one can accurately determine Longitude for navigation. Capt Cook did the same thing in 1774 when he 'discovered' Easter Island.
The only culture that fits the bill was wiped out "not one stone upon the other" by the Romans in 146BC. Tyre, the capital of Phoenicia (israel) sat just offshore from Uru Salaam: City of the New Moon, or City of Peace. The root of the name Jerusalem, and was also seized by Rome in 70AD after a 13 year seige. The gap between is 216 years.
Greek Dionysians built the Temple of Solomon (now called the Temple of Melqart) representing the Solar Lunar Metonic Calendar on which this system is based, they also carried mirrors, a practice associated with both the Magi and the Druids as well as Greek and Egyptian scholars, these Mirrors are Astrological charts called "Cycladian Frying Pans" and record the cycles of the planets. The first Temple of Melqart (the Phoenician form of Horus, or Hercules, or Pan, or Thor) representing the 13th Constellation of Ophiuchus or the Serpent Bearer (hence Orphic Serpent worship) had pillars of Emerald and Gold, representing Isis and Osiris. The Jerusalem Temple only took payment in "Shekels of Tyre" a currency minted during the Jewish rebellion against Rome. "Give that which is Ceasar's unto Ceasar"
When Alexander sacked Tyre in 332BC they moved to Carthage meaning "New City" or New Jerusalem, where they built a second temple with Pillars of Bronze.
Nebuchadnezzar also seiged Tyre for 13 years, taking the City captive in 573BC: the same time as the biblical account of the Jews. And again in 70AD after a three and a half year seige, also consistent with biblical accounts.
Palaset was the name of a tribe of the Sea Peoples, Pallas Set denotes the New Moon of Ammun Ra rising in Gemini, the Pallas Constellation of the Twins that stand before Orion. This occurs due West of the Temple of Solomon in Tyre between the Western Gates of Gibraltar, Gabriel's Altar, and is the basis of the name Pallastein, or Pallas Stone. As in the Philosopher's Stone or Holy Grail, Altar of Ammun Rah, the Rising Sun.
The Cross of Tyre or Ba'El ❌ represents the Lunar maximums and minimums and correlates with the Cross Quarter days of the Solstice Calendar. Align the Cross ❌ Chi Rho Christian ✝️ and Star 🔯 to the zodiac and you have a Compass and a timepiece that can be used to Circumnavigate the globe.
It's Astrological Allegory for a Metonic Eclipse Zodiac Calendar using Accusations in a Mirror 🪞
@@Uncanny_Mountainlmao take your meds, so much effort on nonsense!
@@Uncanny_Mountain Thank you for sharing old astrological information at fate's crossroads
Because scholars have to protect Jesus and Christianity from the heathen at all costs. Jesus has to be special.
The main argument I've seen, though probably not the only one, is that MacDonald's theory requires a level of education that was pretty much exclusively found in the upper class, ie. not found among the sort of people who were either writing or reading Christian texts in the first century. Personally, I don't know enough about the subject to say one way or the other.
There is only one thing worse than a wolf in sheep's clothing, and that is a [wolf in shepherd's clothing].
Babe wake up, Mythvision posted 🔥🔥🔥🔥
I think of the gospels as "theographies": theological biographies. They are crafted more to present theological pictures than historical narratives. A 'foundation' or 'charter' mythology, as Richard Miller says.
Teachings thru myth and symbolism. Mult places biblical text says this is allegory or parable. William Donahue’s videos maybe interesting for this. Many to this day incl religions have benefited by belief the texts are literal or history books. Fear and need for outside authority vs looking in are powerful. For me the late Jiddu Krishnamurti (not guru or master etc) teachings have had the most value but were all diff and I stay opened minded.
We Are MythVision‼️
So cool to see two great minds like this get together and share notes!
Here's something to ponder: not only are their nearly direct and deliberate parallels but I also see direct and deliberate non-parallels. As if they were written this way to either hide the fact that the author of Mark was borrowing the story elements from Odysseus, or to simply change up the story a little so that readers who were familiar with the Odyssey would find a new plot twist that wasn't in the original story. Either way, to have so many similarities back to back and then WHAM, something that is directly the opposite of a story element from the Odyssey, would keep the readers attention by slightly changing up the plot of the story.
Here are story elements that are exactly opposite in each myth:
*The giant asked Odysseus his name while Jesus asked the demoniac his name.
*Odysseus answered 'Nobody is my name', while the demoniac answered 'Legion is my name'.
I was just reading about the Odysseus/Legion thing earlier this week
Relates to my current study about deception in ancient Christian gospels
Great to have these two scholars converse and share not only an application of mimetic analysis, but also to reflect on the way the study of religion is conducted in academia. Many thanks for these episodes!
Exactly. Every other religion past and present is put under the microscope, but Christianity is given free pass or at the very least a mulligan!
I have a friend who cured his "schizophrenia" with that passage. I'd always thought of it as myth, but he was able to use this imagery (to tie up the strong man) to keep the "demons"/voices out of his head, until they went away all together. I met him in school, he is now a master. He's not antisocial and you'd never know he was once committed as a young man for schizophrenia.
Literally got goose bumps as they read off the comparisons between the Homer myth and Mark’s pig tale. Amazing work gentlemen. And thank you Derek for giving scholars like this a platform to share their work in a manner that has never been done before.
You hit a home run on this one, per usual.
Funny how Jesus impressed his followers so mightily they came to the conclusion that he must have created the Universe, but instead of relating the words and deeds of the great man as accurately as possible, they wrote parables riffing off of Homer, Hebrew scriptures, and other ancient mythology...
Did anyone die as martyrs swearing to the truths of Homer?
We don't have reliable information about the true fate of most of the apostles.
Some of the accounts that do exist in the Christian tradition are wildly contradictory and we don't really have a basis to trust them. They also have a strong bias and motive to lie about the fates of apostles that disappeared from history.
You should not trust Christian legends without some form of corroboration because of these severe problems.
@@RustyWalker True enough. The stories about the apostles, at least some of them, are likely legendary or exaggerated. But what is not in dispute is that a great many Christians were martyred for the faith they refused to recant; and over the past 20 centuries, up to our present day, millions have been similarly martyred.
@@user-pm3mw8xw8d Actually, even that's not clear. It's not clear they were offered an opportunity to recant.
Pliny the Younger didn't say what crimes Christians in the second century were accused of nor that they were asked to recant.
What he said was that they were given multiple opportunities to prove their innocence and he found nothing remarkable in them besides their wild superstition.
@@RustyWalker
Prove they were innocent of what?
There is no doubt in my mind that the writes of the gospels knew Homer's Odyssey!
It's only a tiny fraction of the story
Now go to Mexico and learn about theirs
And Ireland
And New Zealand
One Megalithic hour is 240 minutes, or 14,400 seconds (1/4)
There are 6 Megalithic hours to the day, each made up of 6 minutes, each of which is 6 seconds long. If the Megalithic hour was divided into 60 minutes, each would be 1,440 of our seconds, times 100 is 144,000.
One Megalithic second is 400 of our modern seconds, divided by 60 (to get minutes) is 6.6666666....
360 ÷ 6.66 is 54
54 x 2 is 108
108 x 2 is 216
To effect this the hands on a clock count out 10 (units of 6) x 10 (units of 6) × 4 (=400 units of 6). Therefore the relationship of the Megalithic second to our current form is mathematically proportional to the ratio between the Sun and Moon. A Megalithic second is 6.66 minutes (400 seconds). A Megalithic Minute is 40 minutes, or 2,400 seconds. 6 x 6 x 6 x 400 = 86,400, the number of seconds in a day. This would mean a clock with 216 seconds would go around 40 times in a day (2160 x 400).
This means 1 Megalithic second is 6.66 of our modern minutes, meaning their metric system is based on the Full Moon, of which 360 fit into to the night sky, and 720 will encircle the globe, divided by half gives us the 360 degree circle, and the basis for our present hexadecimal system of time. Which is why 1 degree of Arc on the Moon = 100 Megalithic Yards (2700ft). This means the Beast, the hidden hand of the Masonic fraternity, is the Moon; and Time. The white limestone covering of the Pyramids denotes the Pale Moon in Megalithic Ireland, like at New Grange, where Enoch describes a Crystal Palace illuminated by the Full Moon every 19 years.
6 x 6 x 6 is 216, there are 2160 years in an astrological age, and the Moon is 2160 miles in diameter, the solar metonic calendar using 60 6 day weeks produces 1 extra day every 216 years. There are also 216 Megalithic seconds in a day, and 216 letters in the name of the Hebrew God, Just as Solomon has 36 or 72 scrolls, and Muhammed speaks of 72 sects.
Enoch also buries 36,525 scrolls, the number of days in a year, times 100. Oh by the way, this shows that our current measure of time is based on the principle of 1/6, the basis of an Egyptian Royal Cubit, but first they built the first ring at Stonehenge, which is 100 metres (330 ft) wide, with an area of 2160 square feet, a Cube's interior angles also add up to... 2160!
This produces a Calendar of 60 6 day weeks plus five. Every 4th year a 366th day makes exactly 61 weeks.
This means every 216 years this calendar produces 1 extra day, so after 648 years 3 days must be removed. This is when the Phoenix arrived, and stepped onto the Alter of Ra or Holy Grail, completing the Metonic cycle and bringing the Calendar back into sync with the first New Moon of the Spring equinox. The Capstone of the Pyramid is even called the Benben Stone, the Egyptian Phoenix is called the Bennu. It likely relates to Deneb, in Ophiuchus, the 13th Starsign of the Zodiac. The base of the Pyramid is exactly 13 Acres, as is Teotihuacan, because they share the exact same base dimensions.
Such a location would be ideal for calculating the speed of light using the transit of Venus. Incidentally the Great Pyramid's Latitudinal coordinates are the speed of light.
1440 ÷ 108 = 13.333333
11 and 3 are the most sacred Celtic numbers of royalty, and also happen to be the proportions of the Earth to the Moon, and the Great Pyramid.
The starsigns also precess 1 degree every 72 years
72 x 3 is 216
2160 ÷ 648 is 3.3333333
The Aztec Calendar also begins with a double transit of Venus, in 3116BC.
This whole code can be encoded into a single Pythagorean Triangle of Dimensions 666 by 630, by 216, this is the Key of Solomon, 33 is the inverse of 66.
100 is the "perfect number" because it represents 10 6 unit metrics times 10 6 unit metrics, a unit being 6.66
ie 60 x 60 (3600) the number of Arcdegree seconds in a second, or a one second unit on a clock the size of Earth
This means seconds represent 10ths of the Moon; 216, or 6 x 6 x 6 (100 ÷ 6 ÷ 6 = 2.7): Euler's number, and the number of feet to a Megalithic Yard, 3/11 is .27 and the number of days in a sidereal month is also 27.
11/3 is 3.66, the number of days in a Canicular leap year, the character of Thoth, Cuchulainn, and Kukulkan, the Dog Star, and star by which the Sothic (Seth) Calendar is determined. Thoth was the Son of Seth, who is portrayed as a Serpent. 3 x 11 is 33, the years in a Great Solar Return. As the Sun and Moon inhabit their respective houses of the Zodiac they animate the character within, playing out the dramas and battles we know as myths, for example the Moon traveling through each of the Zodiac houses each month, for a grand total of... 144 (12 x 12)
Metatron/Enoch/Echnaton/Arkenaten's Cube is 13 circles in a Star of David:
13 x 360 is 4680
4680 ÷ 216 is 21.666..
@@Uncanny_Mountain You became so smart that your intelligence decreased.
@@user-ws1pp2hg2j I love a circular argument
You must be the coolest cat on the internet 😎
Go you 👍
@@Uncanny_Mountain
😐.. I bet you're fun at parties.
@@Uncanny_MountainAmazing. I'll have to read it again. Thank you for sharing this information.
Great conversation ty for sharing.
😅This is going to be very eye opening, interesting and informative. Thank you all involved. Sending love and warm wishes from Scotland ❤😁
Fellow Scottish fan
What everyone seems to miss is when Jesus supposedly casts the demons into the swine, he's supposed to be doing it because they do not want to go back to the place they fear to return to...then when they're cast into the swine, they commit suicide and go into the place they didn't want to be going in the first place.
That's the story of Porcus, and it is way funnier because Aphrodite yells 'You Pig!" When you go from 3rd decan Aquarius to first decan pisces, the pig is killed. The 3rd decan of Aquarius is symbolized by the pig because Egyptians used them for agriculture, and the time for planting was often right in that decan.
thank you Derrick, &for getting out of the way
The reason why we don’t have original christian gospels is because the stories come from external older sources, extinct myths, and even present myths.
Christianity is constantly changing, evolving, as it continue to travel the world conquering and absorbing cultures and converting people via syncretism.
Horus, Isis, Osiris and Egyptians God's.
The earliest fragments of Mark's gospel predates the earliest fragments of Homer by a century.
And those Horus, etc, stories bear no similarity to Bible stories at all.
@@user-pm3mw8xw8d Homer is well-attested for many centuries before any gospels, spread far and wide along with the Greek language by Alexander's conquests. Which did happen.
Very absorbing, a great convincing narrative difficult to argue! Bullseye!
thanks so much for the knowledge and great view points🙂👍
matthew, mark, luke and john also remind me of the 4 seasons spring, summmer, fall and winter for some reason but i dunno.
thanks again!
Great video!!!
lol... We were fooled so well... lol
Great video! You're doing excellent work, Derek! 👏👏👏👏
Enjoyed the video very much, though the way the captions moved onto the screen was so distracting that I had to hide the video when captions were coming on.
Love to see these two scholars discuss these topics!
Fantastic discussion! I only wish my Catholic family would have the courage to explore the ideas in this video.
Dennis has a couple of books comparing Mark to Homer that I've seen summaries of like the one he reads out here, but he has another one comparing Luke and Vergil I haven't read yet.
Then there's the computer analysis comparing Josephus to Luke's Road to Emmaus by Goldman. The dating of that interpretation is usually a significant point of contention.
Could AI could be trained to spot potential mimesis? Although a human would fact check and verify it, it would be excellent at flagging the Bible cover to cover in terms of known ancient works in Sumerian, Akkadian, Greek, even Ancient Egyptian.
Nice work!
For me it’s easier to start from the point ancient text were/ are teachings thru myth and symbolism. Mult places biblical text says this is allegory or parable incl in ref to Jesus. Many to this day esp religions have benefited by belief the texts are literal/ history books.
Haven't read the NT, but the Odyssey is a great read.
"Literacy remains even now the base and model of all programs of industrial mechanization; but, at the same time, it locks the minds and senses of its users in the mechanical and fragmentary matrix that is so necessary to the maintenance of mechanized society. That is why the transition from mechanical to electric technology is so very traumatic and severe for us all. The mechanical techniques, with their limited powers, we have long used as weapons. The electric techniques cannot be used aggressively except to end all life at once like the turning off of a light. To live with both of these technologies at the same time is a peculiar drama of the 20th century."
[Understanding Media, Marshall McLuhan, 1964, Ch. Weapons]
thanks Derek!
Yes, Dr. MacDonald, we got it.
Thanks!
Brilliant! A view into the minds of those who developed the very earliest version of Christianity, and religion in general.
Because people get so worked up about the bible, perhaps it would be good to show a non-religious form of mimesis to show that this was not uncommon and take some of the sting out of the point made regarding the bible.
شكرا لجهودكم 🌹
Thanks
These Homeric parallels present in MARK (etc.) are undeniably there by design -- the author(s) of the Gospels having been steeped in the commonly-known and immensely popular literature of the Classical world.
Yet the same parallelisms can be seen when comparing the Gospel stories with the military campaign of Titus, as depicted in THE JEWISH WAR by Josephus, as Joseph Atwill's work has shown. Whether it's Homeric MIMESIS or Flavian TYPOLOGY, it's all of-a-piece.
In the Gerasene demoniac story, we not only have these Classical Homeric parallels with the Polyphemus and Circe episodes from Homer's ODYSSEY, but we also have a Flavian spoof on the capture of Jewish rebels who were instigating their rebellious ways -- where a 'demon' can be defined as a 'spirit of rebellion', rebellion against Rome's rule over the territory of Judaea. Atwill has chapters devoted to explaining the folkloric exorcism tactics employed by the Flavian conquerors of Judaea's rebels.
Is it a wonder that the Flavian propagandists who intentionally linked 'Jesus' to Titus ALSO knew their Homer and incorporated elements from their own culture's popular literature? They re-purposed it so as to invent this new religion -- this spoof of Messianic Judaism -- all-the-while secretly glorifying the new dynasty ruling over the Roman Empire: the Flavians -- Vespasian (who was deified by Senatorial vote), Titus (the Son of the 'god' Vespasian), and lastly Domitian.
Dr. MacDonald ought to have in-depth conversations with Joseph Atwill on these similar Mimesis/Typology elements present in the Gospels. Maybe Derek can hook them up and film such a discussion.
Unfortunately Atwill has sullied himself in recent years and isn’t welcome in polite company.
James Valiant has done a far better job of explaining how the Flavians got rid of Jesus and replaced him with a mythologized Christ figure.
I read Caesar’s Mesiah when it was hot off the press and I did enjoy it but thought at the time that perhaps Atwill was reaching a bit far in some of his speculative tangents but overall I felt that his core idea was parsimonious and sound.
This was before I discovered Robert Eisenman which really blew my hair back.
A pastor ignorant of anything other than their Kentucky Bible College curriculum? Say it ain’t so! 😂😂
The only problem with this video is that it was too short.
Thanks 👍
Matthew was seeking to distance the Jesus natrative from any Gentile sources and draw more from Jewish scripture.😊 Nothing to do with any lack of knowledge about Homer.
Aren't those related though? What are the Gentile sources you are referencing? Would they not be more Greek oriented than you're Jewish sources?
It seems like he tried to balance the very Greco-Roman divine birth myth by including the genealogy right next to it in order to prove Davidic origin, which seems to also evoke/parallel the genealogies in the Old Testament
Same source, and it's found everywhere
Trojan War 1200BC
Rameses II conquest of Qadesh 1200BC
David v Golaith 1200BC
I know, there are 216 years missing, because they were added to the fall of Carthage and Tyre, aka Jerusalem and New Jerusalem
And also, Matthew re-patterned the storyline after the progress of the Jewish War as both Joseph Atwill and James Valliant have figured out.
The rest of their hypotheses I'll leave alone for now because I don't like conspiracy theories, having been stung by 9/11 Trutherism.
@@user-uo7fw5bo1o Do you think after Matthew did that Mark was restructured to somewhat match? It seems like the gospels could’ve easily been edited to match one another, even in small ways.
Virgil used the Odyssey as a springboard or soundingboard for the novelty of Rome expressed in the Aeneid.
The writers of the Gospels probably had a higher access to the Septuagint than suggested here since the stories incorporate so many ideas from it to frame their story about Jesus.
Matthew gets his "virgin mother" from the Septuagint as well as two animals instead of one brought to Jesus to ride.
That would suggest the Gospel writers were Jews in the Diaspora that were educated in literary Greek.
This “fly on the wall” format should be copied.
What an awesome discovery........😊
"Western specialist technology transferred to the Arab world in late Roman times released a furious discharge of tribal energy."
[Understanding Media: The Extension of Man, Marshall McLuhan, 1964, Ch. 7: Challenge and Collapse]
What are the criticisms they’ve gotten they mentioned?
The roman garrison (legion) in Judea had the swine as its banner .
And it was the 10th Legion, and the demoniac was found on the Galilee shore of the region of the Ten Towns, or Decapolis.
Brilliant
The gospels are a stage play the Romans used to attend.
But... Hasn't this Homeric mimesis been a fringe theory for years, and hasn't gained traction among scholars of the NT?? (ironic mode: off)
Is (ironic mode: off) the new /s?
I find their argument pretty convincing 🤷♀️
@@imcarlabee It's a joke. Undoubtedly, there's mimesis in the gospels, probably not all directly from Homer (or Virgil), since his epics were already engrained in the culture, but in general I agree with McDonald (except on the Q hypothesis).
My comment was hinting at how some Jesus historicists usually refer to Dr Carrier's minimal historicity theory, and how Dr McDonald meekly changed this attitude towards Richard Carrier. Not giving his theory its deserved credit is ironic because McDonald's work provides support for mythicism, and he has suffered the same sneer as Carrier.
As for Dr Miller, I agree on most his conclusions in "Resurrection and Reception in Early Christianity". He's not a mythicist, but has the guts to say that Carrier's theory is worth being at the table. And that's remarkable in so biased a field as NT studies.
@@thescoobymike Oh, I forgot about /s tag!
@@maatjusticia3954 Fair enough! I think for him to be cagey about Dr. Carrier's conclusions is a little dubious, given that Carrier is so generous in both directions with his estimate.
That being said, I think it is worthwhile to take McDonald's criticisms on their own merits, independent of any other silly positions he may hold.
My favourite Bible verses are those that might deal with Nuclear Missiles & their effects. Zechariah 5:1-8, Zechariah 14:12, Ezekiel 39:9 & 12-15, Jeremiah 51:1-2.
"Might" is working overtime and weekends there.
@@RustyWalker If you read them, it would be eligible for early retirement.
I read the passages, and it's post hoc rationalization at best to say these verses might be about nuclear weapons.
My favorite Bible passages right now are 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1.
They're parallel verses recounting the same events. When David is moved to do the census of Israel. In Samuel it says it was the anger of the LORD that moved David. But in Chronicles it says it was Satan who moved David to do the census. It's a piece of evidence showing that satan (or hasatan, the adversary) wasn't a person, but a title. Like a court advisor who would purposely disagree or give scrutiny, or something like a prosecutor. An inoculation against yes men. I think the character of the Christian Devil was derived from this 'adversary" title along with demons of evil in older myths. Like Ahriman, "The Opposer" from Zoroastrianism. Makes phrases like "devils advocate" feel very circular.
Fascinating, great conversation, learned a lot from this tonight. Thank you so much!
A reasonable proposition. Do you have any more?
The gerasene is a bit of a unique story, in that neither Luke nor Mark were eyewitnesses
but rather, narrators of others.
Unique except for literally all the others.
@@sciptick I'm certainly willing to note what is being said here if we can agree on the fact that Homer's subjects were generally mythological, whereas the NT is logging into real events of real people. The Jewish officials who were set over the indisputable residents of the land had no issues with the historicity of Jesus. They intentionally had him executed. Don't belabor the point. Greek civilization is itself a primary witnesses to these events which steered it into its future.
@@saludanite Except Jewish tradition set the historical Jesus in the First Century BCE under the reign of Alexander Jannaeus.
Don't act foolish.
Mind blowing! This was a line of argumentation I was completely ignorant of…
I'm not so sold on the Q reference as I am on Homer.
Even if the gospel writers imitated Greek prose or poetry, this is not evidence that the persons they wrote about were fictitious.
Maybe there really was a naked caveman among the Gerasenes who was possessed by demons.
That might be so, but they are clearly promoting an agenda and seek to bury the historical Jesus who apparently was a rebel (Mk 15:7) and a trafficker of young men or at least a lover of males (Mk 14:51-52) (a capital crime in Jewish Law at the time).
Fictions _mostly_ involve fictitious people. You would need evidence otherwise to conclude that anybody in a fiction is based on somebody real. We have evidence that the Peter in the gospels is modeled after somebody who existed. We have no evidence that he did anything described in the gospels. We have no evidence the Jesus in the gospels even existed, but we can anyway be certain at least most of what they say he did did not happen.
32:15 Who is that?
Yyeeeeaaahh!
HEY DOES ANYONE KNOW WHO THE ARTIST/singer is on the theme song? YO DEREK? Who dat?
Is the myth that "The Lion King" is plagiarized from "Kimba" relevant to this topic?
Ghost trying to enter at 5:01 :)
Very excited to see this. Derrick: is it possible to edit the subtitles? They clearly were generated by speech-to-text software. The mimesis criteria should read: 1.) 2.) 3.) 4.) not "for" !
Is there only mimicry here to assist in the storytelling (getting ideas) or can we assume that use of Homeric stories implies a similar intent to both stories? As is, the story in Homer is for a specific intent in the overall epic, and the use of that story to build a Jesus story is for a similar specific intent in the gospel?
One example: the parable of the demon wandering and returning to its home. This sounds like Ulysses the wanderer in a way, but Ulysses expels (well, kills) his wife's suitors and cleans his house. What if he had expelled them, cleaned his house, and then left his house unattended? The suitors would have returned like the demons, but brought more and the problem would be worse. Is this a real way in which Mark is counting on knowledge of Homer for his parable to make the most impact?
I think the discussion kind of misses the point. The gospels aren't supposed to be a biography of a man called Jesus. It's supposed to be a presentation of the good news delivered by a man named Jesus. Like any story about a message being delivered, you want to get some kind of understanding about the messenger. So we have examples of what he said and what he did. Are these examples 100% accurate reproductions of what actually happened. Probably not. But that's not important. The reason for the writing, the good news, is what's important. The news being that 1. There is a god and his kingdom. 2. He has given us life and the kingdom. 3. He wants us to live life abundantly in his kingdom. 4. Jesus can show a way to have that abundant life. Haven't read the Odyssey. Does it also deliver its own profound message?
We are arguing that modern theological / religionist readings of Mark are radically decontextualized from classical antiquity, that is, the cultural world of the Mediterranean Hellenistic urban centers. Of course “the point” of these texts looks wildly different to modern religious readers who share none of that context. Mark did not contain the hallmarks of biography from that period, that is, .. it contained too much myth and literary crafting and focused on the run-up and tragedy of his execution.. nothing about any other chapter in his life.
They seem to give compelling evidence. Have any past scholars ever noticed or mentioned memesis (sp?) I wonder?
14:59 -
We are Memeisvision!!!
We are…….!
I’m new to your channel and I like it. You should get Robert Price on sometime. Have you heard of him?
He used to be a lot,but there was a falling out.
That sucks. Over money? Political opinions? I had a bunch of friends drop me as soon as I had different opinions about the Bible. A lot of Fundamentalist Christians are incapable of maintaining friendships with people who have different opinions. Just shows their immaturity. Oh well, life goes on.
Bob Price went full blown MAGA and then some. Shame because I have some of his bland he is a dynamite biblical scholar. He just has a compulsion to inject his weird Fox News mindset into discourse that doesn’t have anything to do with that.
Dr. Bob said some racist shit then doubled down on it.
It was sad times.
@@jennifersilves4195 oh wow, like what?
❤❤❤❤
The case they make, each time, is so convincing.
For the purposes of smooth editing, make sure you are not wondering around in the background of your videos. 😅
If you see "nemesis" it's because they're both allegories for the same thing. Homers epic poetry like the illiad and the odyssey are both theurgic in nature and thus like almost every myth in the ancient world it's a symbolic conveyance to hide the great mystery tradition.. once you understand what the mysteries were/ are it's easy to recognize the key elements in almost every myth..different cultures used different symbols and metaphor but the mysteries are the mysteries they may look vastly different on the outside but they're showing you the same way. You shouldn't be surprised about the similarities you should expect it
I applaud your acceptance that these are allegories and I believe you are mostly correct when you indicate that parallel allegories are telling the same story but with different metaphors. The people behind this system of allegory were identified by Plato as Sophists and in Plato's Protagoras they are described this way:
“Now the art of the Sophist is, as I believe, of great antiquity; but in ancient times those who practiced it, fearing this odium, veiled and disguised themselves under various names, some under that of poets, as Homer, Hesiod, and Simonides, some, of hierophants and prophets, as Orpheus and Musaeus, and some, as I observe, even under the name of gymnastic‐ masters, like Iccus of Tarentum, or the more recently celebrated Herodicus, now of Selymbria and formerly of Megara, who is a first‐rate Sophist. Your own Agathocles pretended to be a musician, but was really an eminent Sophist; also Pythocleides the Cean; and there were many others; and all of them, as I was saying, adopted these arts as veils or disguises because they were afraid of the odium which they would incur.”
Note that Homer is the first on the list and that this list ends with the statement "...there were many others..." If this description is taken seriously, Sophism was a dominant influence in the ancient world and undoubtedly created the "world" metaphorically described in Plato's Allegory of the Cave. The Sophist Protagoras is elsewhere described in Plato's Theaetetus this way:
“In the name of the Graces, what an almighty wise man Protagoras must have been! He spoke these things in a parable to the common herd, like you and me, but told the truth, his Truth, in secret to his own disciples.”
And a clear "parallel" is found in the Gospel of Mark 4:32-33:
"With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything."
This is actually a deliberate allusion designed to provide context for the surrounding allegory and it is clearly intended to link Jesus to Sophism. Also, if the literal meanings of these two statements are accepted, it suggests that the Sophists employed a system of allegory to hide knowledge from the masses, but would share the knowledge of how to decipher this allegory with their "disciples".
Furthermore, it is historical fact that Christianity was created during a period known as the Second Sophistic. For me, the connection between Christianity and Sophism should be obvious, but I have the same problem as the people promoting the Mimesis theory, in that, those that have already formed their opinions are generally unwilling to take alternative theories seriously.
The connections and reality behind all this becomes even more apparent when a serious effort of decipher the Sophist allegories is undertaken. The actual history of early Christianity is far different than most could ever imagine. It is a tragedy that people can be so close to blowing the whole thing wide open and still not see the value of just taking one more step in a certain direction.
@@warrensmith8161 Sophist was Plato's code word for "I don't like him", and saying they hid their doctrine behind allegories was his genteel way of calling them liars. I am no Platonist, but mystery cultists are no better.
@@sciptick You have the wrong context so you cannot see. Plato was a Sophist and he was only pretending to be against them. (Socrates was his "veil".) In reality his "unwritten doctrines" (true context) together with his writings served as a primer for the Sophists.
Have you read Preface to Plato?
@warrensmith8161 great response, I wasn't aware of those quotes. Homer as I understand it means "hostage" and in the ancient world when a nation/ city state was conquered they wouldn't kill the elites they would instead take all the educated people back to their home city (ie the Jewish Babylonian exile). I've always fancied Homer to be one of these elites from a conquered territory.. just a theory.. my teacher told me long ago that the mysteries have never been penatrated, mostly due to the many blinds that exist.. a blind being a deliberate over emphasis on something designed to bring someone to a false conclusion, but I agree that more people should strive to know and ask the right questions. Perhaps someday soon, the mysteries will again see the light of day, but for now, remain hidden.. The greatest knowledge man has ever possessed isn't for everyone and would sadly be abused were it to fall into the wrong hands but it's all there if someone has eyes to see and ears to hear and heed the words inscribed on the walls of Delphi "know thyself and you will know the universe and the gods"
I very much appreciate the work of all three of you!
I have taken a long winding path, but in my 20s, I did read the whole Bible through four times. I also took about as many varying types of bible study courses. The first and most interesting course was through some 7th Day Advent folks I met.
But all along, there was a lot of unexplained strangeness about it. And apologetics seemed more and more like grasping at straws than providing enlightenment.
But that's because I was raised in an atheist household. And because I was an attentive reader of literature.
In short, what your works reveal and what MythVision brings to the table, it all fills in the blanks, makes sense of that which seemed inexplicable, bizarre, and out of left field.
Thanks 😊
Thank you all ever so much. This exploration and exposition of sources feels very timely. ❤
PS
Did y'all have a bet riding on the inclusion of "...like a fish story"? Shame on you! 😂👍
Is Mark's gospel homeric mimesis or is Mark the deconvert telling his own Odyssee?
What do you think, what's the name of Polyphemos? Is it Paul or is it Dennis MacDonnald?
I think Mark is a deconvert from Pauline Christianity.
@@user-uo7fw5bo1o
What branch then did he convert to and what would convince me that he is a christian at all by the time of writing?
See Mark's Jesus hates scribes. And yet obviously Mark loves to be a scribe. In the parable of the sower he tells you that John, Jesus, Peter and the disciple did not leave a word. But Paul did. And when it comes to writing, then Mark selects for being a poet, more than that.
Gospel on Homer Simpson. More possible.
QUESTION: 35:55 If "Q" has the demoniac story in it, and the demoniac story comes from Homer, then "Q" must not be an authentic eyewitness to Jesus. Is that right? (I am watching this video for my 5th time. The truth is important to me.)
Hi Dave, I think Dennis argued for a “homerization” of Q’s exorcism bit, thus transforming it into what we find in Mk. In other words, if we subtract the Homeric elements of Mark’s Demoniac scene, we end up more or less with the Q tale.
@@RichardMiller-ym5jc Thanks for explaining. I went back over it and I see what you are saying. The transitions in the discussion are not easy for a newby to follow. I like to think that underneath the embellishments there is something really there. I wish we had "Q". How do you explain this to someone new to the Bible?
@@davechristensen8299 well, as you see there, removing Homeric mimesis does not scrub away the legendary and folk-belief elements. You end up in a world swarming with demon encounters, miraculous healings etc, even if considerably more modest in natural violation. It’s interesting for those hoping that world is a genuine representation of reality itself what that implies (not saying this is precisely what you are getting at). They would prefer to live in a world beset by demons with one hero who seems to be the only one who is effective in addressing them, though he’s long left, to the bare mundane world we otherwise believe we see and know… something like hoping the Ironman movies depicted reality, but then getting with the hero the myriad of destructive villains etc. 😀 I think a man Jesus existed in time and space, but that he was not the object of earliest Christian narrative.
@@RichardMiller-ym5jc Thank you for the conversation. I think a lot of Pagan beliefs have been inserted into Jesus' mouth. I am a descendant of secret Jews who functioned in the Christian Church. We did not buy the Greek philosophy nor the Roman mythology that has been inserted into the (Hebrew) Bible.
Jesus himself didn't like demon hunting. He said if you cast out a demon, seven more will fill their place. In other words "double negatives" don't bring positives. Waring with the negative just brings more negative. But, that's what Fundamentalist specialize at. "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."
I myself have had more than several medical miracles for myself and for those I prayed for. Not usually. But definitely many times. Doctor validated. Cancer disappeared with x-rays to prove. Many others.
I prayed for a dead girl, and she woke up and started playing with her brother, all at once. These times that I connect with God (infinite good) are more beautiful and transcendent than I can explain. There is more to life than the 5 physical senses can show us.
American Indians could do these things and other more spiritual cultures too. I credit being with them for some of my moments of connecting with The Sacred. No religion owns it. It's all of our birthrights. And doctors can tell you that these things happen. So....why couldn't Jesus have done some of them if I could?
It is the words of Jesus that open the windows to heaven for me. There is more to reality than our eyes can see. Even quantum physics tells us this.
Jesus most certainly was not God, and there is no such thing as a Trinity. It discourages me how most of "Christendom" worships a Trinity that is nowhere in the Bible.
Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father, BECAUSE THE FATHER LIVES IN ME AND I LIVE IN THE FATHER". Jesus never said he was God. The Infinite Source of all Creation lived in Jesus, and Jesus tried to show us that we can be in union with the Source of our spiritual being too.
If Jesus was not from heaven, or if he did not have a special experience with the Infinite One, then he was the best psychiatrist that ever walked the earth. He understood things like the necessity of forgiving those who hurt us, because if we don't find a way to free ourselves of past hurts, they own us and control us.
Jesus gave us a powerful and passionate kind of love that I cannot find in any other religion nor culture. He saved MY life!
Thank you for helping us get the bullshit out of the Bible. It is troubling that it is there, and it seems like a monumental job to clean it up. With not much time left. But we have to do it!
@@RichardMiller-ym5jc Thank you for the conversation. I think a lot of Pagan beliefs have been inserted into Jesus' mouth. I am a descendant of secret Jews who functioned in the Christian Church. We did not buy the Greek philosophy nor the Roman mythology that has been inserted into the (Hebrew) Bible.
Jesus himself didn't like demon hunting. He said if you cast out a demon, seven more will fill their place. In other words "double negatives" don't bring positives. Waring with the negative just brings more negative. But, that's what Fundamentalist specialize at. "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."
I myself have had more than several medical miracles for myself and for those I prayed for. Not usually. But definitely many times. Doctor validated. Cancer disappeared with x-rays to prove. Many others.
I prayed for a dead girl, and she woke up and started playing with her brother, all at once. These times that I connect with God (infinite good) are more beautiful and transcendent than I can explain. There is more to life than the 5 physical senses can show us.
American Indians could do these things and other more spiritual cultures too. I credit being with them for some of my moments of connecting with The Sacred. No religion owns it. It's all of our birthrights. And doctors can tell you that these things happen. So....why couldn't Jesus have done some of them if I could?
It is the words of Jesus that open the windows to heaven for me. There is more to reality than our eyes can see. Even quantum physics tells us this.
Jesus most certainly was not God, and there is no such thing as a Trinity. It discourages me how most of "Christendom" worships a Trinity that is nowhere in the Bible.
Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father, BECAUSE THE FATHER LIVES IN ME AND I LIVE IN THE FATHER". Jesus never said he was God. The Infinite Source of all Creation lived in Jesus, and Jesus tried to show us that we can be in union with the Source of our spiritual being too.
If Jesus was not from heaven, or if he did not have a special experience with the Infinite One, then he was the best psychiatrist that ever walked the earth. He understood things like the necessity of forgiving those who hurt us, because if we don't find a way to free ourselves of past hurts, they own us and control us.
Jesus gave us a powerful and passionate kind of love that I cannot find in any other religion nor culture. He saved MY life!
Thank you for helping us get the bullshit out of the Bible. It is troubling that it is there, and it seems like a monumental job to clean it up. With not much time left. But we have to do it!
Where in Homer is this story so I can read it myself?
Ppl say the Bible is older without any evidence for this and these myths are actually copying the Bible. Total nonsense
The savior
"The mystery surrounding Jesus' death and his ability to impart life presents a profound dilemma. When we consider the finite nature of space on our planet, it raises questions that demand contemplation. Imagine a scenario where someone possesses the remarkable power to grant eternal life, heal the sick, and even resurrect the dead. If such a person were to emerge, especially in a position of authority like a ruler or governor, it would inevitably lead to concerns about overpopulation.
This concept draws parallels to historical figures like Abraham and Lot, whose expanding herds caused strife and conflict. The notion of managing a world where life is infinite and death seemingly conquered poses a complex ethical and practical challenge. Would society accept such a figure, allowing them to bestow life without limits? Or would fear of overpopulation and resource scarcity lead to drastic measures like rejection or even persecution?
This hypothetical scenario prompts us to ponder deeper questions about the nature of life, death, and the responsibilities of those with extraordinary abilities. It highlights the delicate balance between the gift of life and the realities of our finite existence, inviting us to explore the ethical and philosophical implications of such extraordinary power."
the scenario also raises fundamental questions about human nature and societal dynamics. Would the emergence of a life-giving figure lead to a harmonious utopia or chaotic discord? History has shown us that power, especially when it involves matters of life and death, can be both a blessing and a curse.
In grappling with these questions, we are reminded of the complexities inherent in our existence. The fear of overpopulation is just one facet of a broader tapestry that includes issues of equity, governance, and the very meaning of life itself. Would allowing this person to give life to everyone lead to a greater appreciation for life and a more compassionate society? Or would it amplify existing societal challenges and create new ones?
Ultimately, the story of Jesus, with its central themes of life, death, sacrifice, and redemption, continues to provoke contemplation and debate millennia after it unfolded. It invites us to delve into profound philosophical and ethical inquiries about the nature of humanity and our place in the cosmos.
As we navigate these complex ideas, we are reminded of the importance of empathy, wisdom, and collective responsibility in shaping our shared future. The hypothetical scenario serves as a thought experiment, urging us to reflect on the intricate interplay between power, life, and the human condition."
"In contemplating the scenario of a person creating a machine capable of granting life and resurrecting the dead, we are confronted with profound ethical and existential questions. How would society respond to such a revolutionary invention? Would we embrace the creator as a savior, offering endless possibilities for healing and rejuvenation? Or would fear and uncertainty about the implications of unlimited life lead to skepticism or even hostility?
This mirrors our present-day reality, where advancements in technology continually push the boundaries of what we thought possible. As we navigate these uncharted territories, we are forced to grapple with the complexities of human nature, societal values, and the very essence of life itself.
The moral and practical considerations surrounding such a machine are vast. Would access to eternal life be universally available, or would it be restricted to a privileged few? How would it impact concepts of aging, illness, and mortality? And crucially, how would it alter our perception of what it means to be human?
These questions invite introspection and dialogue, urging us to consider the responsibilities and consequences of wielding such extraordinary power. In a world where the boundaries between life and death may blur, our choices and actions take on heightened significance, shaping the course of humanity's future.
Ultimately, the hypothetical invention of a life-giving machine serves as a poignant reflection on our aspirations, fears, and the timeless quest for understanding the mysteries of existence."
There are a lot of smart people giving opinions. We shall see in the end.
What translations do they use? I pulled out odyssey (book 9) and gospel of Mark (niv), and i can't find such parallel texts.
totally different texts, nothing in common...
Finding parallels is not how mimetic cognition worked in antiquity. Mimetic play was a literary commonality in Hellenistic composition. It was as much about contrast as about similarity. MacDonald and I both read classical Greek dialects.. So, no translation. The mimetic cues discussed in the video, however, did depend on arguments from Greek language.
@@RichardMiller-ym5jc ok, i ll ask gpt to find me greek text of odyssey and translate it into english.
What Mark should i find to see if they match? (Word for word just like in video).
I m totally on a train that gospels were written in greek originally, because Philo from Alexandria was reshaping Old Testament, in greek i suppose. And quotes from hymn of Zeus in book of acts 17 28, and stoic philosophy about soul, will and everything else (that could be found in trees and rocks) will be found in gospel of Thomas 77. And famous p52 in greek too.
But people like hebrew bible, it would be hard to sell mentioned parallels, because "ofcourse you see parallels, you've translated aramaic/hebrew into greek in such manner, and now it match..."
@@knkn5049 , there are a number of world-class translations of the Odyssey (I like Lattimore). The video was not attempting a word-for-word parallelizing. It was showing story sequencing and thematics. The dialects are so different that a word for word parallelism would be impossible. Consider that the Odyssey was composed 800 years prior to Mark. Greek had change wildly over that long stretch of time.
To me the story of Lot isn't about homosexual love but of the worse type of rape. No one would think of the rape in Deliverance as a love scene. We know that Homer makes it very clear how important hospitality is important to the Greek. The story of Lot isn't about homosexuality. It's about defending strangers even to the point of giving up your daughters.
Many videos discuss this. It is "The Law of Hospitality". It is also not the only mention of this theme in the Old Testament.
Traveling storytellers worldwide always had compelling motivation to promote divine commands for hospitality to total strangers. And invent them, where missing.
@@davidfrisken1617 The Law of Hospitality was also a law in ancient Greece, whether statutory or unwritten, and it's known as ξενία ( _ksenia_ ) and the word's passed down to us as "xenial".
From the Sithian Sages down the silk road, take a right into the Greeks and Egyptians, then go north to Ireland. That sums up religions over a 3,800 year period. Repostulations of Chrishna and Kali. It all comes from reflective theology.
Wouldn't this just solidify the story?
It would solidify that the story is a story, and a mythical one at that.
Y'all gonna have that inspiring philosophy guy going mad over the his one and only truth that is the holy Bible ! Ohh he's gonna come after you guys !! With his proof of bible truth which no one can actually prove !
Unusual level of mid sentence edits evident in this discussion Derek. Gives the impression its cut and pasted together to bolster the argument, which is not like Mythvision style. Interesting none the less though.
The message is the same even when these scholars were already on mythvidosn
12:53 glitch on the split screen.
35:15 letter "C" appears on screen.
We need some sources because just having stuff like " homer is a god " i've never had read or heard about that what are the sources ?
MacDonald has published several books on these topics, all heavily and meticulously footnoted. My book explores mimesis as well, but more from a cultural-linguistic lens. So, this is all heavily researched and documented (and peer-reviewed).
8:18 I think Lucian knew of the synoptic gospels and maybe John when he wrote _Prometheus on Caucasus,_ because he depicts Hermes and Hephaestus chaining Prometheus to the rock crucifixion style.
And the Gospel writers themselves? I think they had other sources other than Homer at their fingertips. They all knew of Prometheus. I think Mark had a lost _bios_ of Julius Caesar and Josephus' _Life,_ Matthew a copy of Josephus' _The Jewish War,_ Luke had at least Antiquities, and John had the _mythoi_ of Dionysus. And they all has the Septuagint so they can paper over everything and make their works look "Jewish".
EDIT: "Transformations of his comrades with drugs." Have you heard of Dr. Ammon Hillman? He's at Lady Babylon, alleging that Christianity was a mystery religion that transformed its adherents with drugs! Drs. MacDonald and Miller you gotta look him up and see what he has to say. You too, Derek. Thanks! 😉
EDIT: While listening to the two discuss the Gerasene demoniac and the parable of the strongman, it dawned on me that the parable is loosely based on the history of Judea in 66 to 135 CE. Judea/Jerusalem is the house, the 66-74 rebels were the strongman/thousands of demons, the house cleaned and swept was Judea restored to peace and Jerusalem remodeled as Aelia Capitolina, and the return of the strongman with his seven friends are the rebels of the Bar Kokhba Revolt and the last state of the land of Judaea-Galilaea-Palestina was worse than the first!
Now that I know where the parable of the strongman came from, these two, NT scholars, classicists, and Dr Richard Carrier can figure out where the rest of Q came from.
"And the penny dropped, the penny dropped, that Jesus never existed!" (Kenneth Humphries) Why? Because the Christians wanted to bury the historical Jesus and erase him from history, that's why.
Homer predates Maccabees, so I'm going with that story too is based on Homer.
These "parallels" are just gold.😂
There was a mounatin
There were swine
They went on a ship somewhere.
They disembarked.
The thing was "savage and lawless"
They asked the savage and lawless thing its name.
The thing answered the question (gave different answers, of course)
Really padding the numbers here, dont you think? This is the most generic, basic stuff.
Right.. common everyday sorts of tales in ancient texts?? I don’t think so.
You will have the same problem if a movie quotes another movie today. There will be similarities and differences. The question is if the readers would have recognized the story. I can't proove that Boromirs death in Lord of the Rings is a citation of the Chanson du Roland simply by reading the text. And yet it is highly likely given the fact that JRR Tolkien was baptized in european literature and uses tropes of myths and legends quite frequently. Is West Side Story an homage to Romeo and Juliet? Can you proove it from the text alone?
Lets get Bart in on this.
NT Jesus was created by Arrius Piso/Josephus
"So wisdom drapes her truth with symbolism, and covers her insight with allegory. Creeds, rituals, poems are parables and symbols. The ignorant take them literally and build for themselves prison houses of words and with bitter speech and bitterer taunt denounce those who will not join them in the dungeon. Before the rapt vision of the seer, dogma and ceremony, legend and trope dissolve and fade, and he sees behind the fact the truth, behind the symbol the Reality. Through the shadow shines ever the Perfect Light."
[THE LOST KEYS OF FREEMASONRY: or The Secret of Hiram Abiff, By MANLY P. HALL]
"We may first consider the murderers of Hiram. These three ruffians, who, when the Builder seeks to leave his temple, strike him with the tools of his own Craft until finally they slay him and bring the temple down in destruction upon their own heads, symbolize the three expressions of our own lower natures which are in truth the murderers of the good within ourselves. These three may be called thought, desire, and action. "
[THE LOST KEYS OF FREEMASONRY: or The Secret of Hiram Abiff, By MANLY P. HALL]
Derek is doing God’s work.😂