Idk I think most people don’t literally mean every final boss is Bowser but some variation/involves him. However I am glad he isn’t the final boss in any shape or form. Having him be there in some fashion got repetitive so I welcome Reclusa.
I know most people do just mean that it's just Bowser's involvement in general but I still think it's a bit misleading that people call it a "tradition" when it is really just a technicality, especially in Partner's in Time's case.
I was just gonna say this we know Bowser isn't "techinally" the final boss in every Mario and Luigi but the mofo still has some involvement this is the first game where he has literally zero and it is a breath of fresh air I was genenily suprised cause when he showed up at the very end to save Mario and luigi I though for SURE reclusa was gonna do some werid bowser and reclusa merger and we'd have reclwser or something corny like that again. Thank God I was wrong lol.
@@Reecee I think the fanbase knows what people are talking about. Cause I discussed this before the game came out I was HOPING that bowser would not have any invovlment in the final boss and to my suprised I got my wish. Kind of one of the reason i can't hate on brothership cause it gave me a lot of what I was asking for even though it feel short in other areas I didn't expect it to fall short in lol.
Reclusa's quote "It's better living in your own little world and enjoying what you like all alone! It's the best and only way to enjoy life!" really fits those Mario & Luigi 'fans' and their unrealistic expectations. Makes you think.
No. That can be weaponized by both sides. Both sides are being Reclusa by saying "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG" and trying to completely expel them from the fanbase. You're no better than they are.
I've seen this misconception everywhere and it does kind of drive me a little nuts. Like, calling Shrowser the "final boss" in Partners in Time is a huge stretch. It's very clear that Elder Princess Shroob is the actual final boss, and Shrowser is just a quick little romp to close out the game. As you mentioned in the video, while Bowletta technically is Bowser, he's completely possessed, to the point where he has no free will. Plus, the bulk of the final battle is not Bowletta, rather it's Cackletta's Soul, which has nothing to do with Bowser. And then Dark Bowser is even less related because it's actually the Dark Star, which is a completely different entity than Bowser. I really don't get where this whole idea that Bowser's always the final boss came from. Also, how is breaking this "tradition" a bad thing anyway? I would think people would be glad to have a final boss that isn't Bowser (Even though the only ones that really were Bowser to begin with are in Dream Team and Paper Jam, so it wasn't really much of an issue anyway).
he is in some form. you can make a strong case for Partners in time but techinally speaking he is still in there. lol. Like I said I feel like they threw shrowser in there cause theres some werid mandate saying Bowser has to be the final boss in some capacity and they forgot to do it while making the game then just decided to threw in this werid semi boss fight to kind fullfill that requirement or something.
Wait? People are complaining about that? Before Brothership people kept complaining about how the final boss had to be bowser in some capacity every single time, and now they're complaining that he isn't? Make up your mind people.
Now that’s something I agree with. If we’re arguing about how Reclusa broke the Bowser cycle, it was Elder Shroob who did that first. But EVERY SINGLE M&L GAME HAS HAD SOME FORM OF WIGGLER FIGHT!
@@ChasetheYTcheetah Elder shroob is still debatable though cause of shrowser I can definetly see the argument made on elder shroob but at the same time it wasn't completely broken cause you still had shrowser. But reclusa without a doubt definetly broke this cycle. and the wiggler cycle which is good cause wiggler forking annoying lol.
I thought it was really cool to finally have Bowser be the main antagonist in a Mario & Luigi game cuz up until then he was always playing second fiddle to a different villain so having him be the big bad instead was really cool.
it definitely feels disingenuous for people to count shrowser as partners in time having bowser as the final boss because its the last thing you could possibly count as a fight, while saying bowletta or dark bowser count even though the last thing you fight isnt bowser or even bowser adjacent in either of those cases, its cackletta soul or the dark star core
Let's not forget the side stories either. Bowser isn't the final boss in Bowser's Minions or Bowser Jr's Journey in any form whatsoever. The former has Fawful, the latter has the Best Fitness Friends fusion. But honestly? Yeah, it's pushing it to say Bowser is the final boss in the games other than Dream Team or Paper Jam. Besides, if you want a Bowser tradition, this game has one; you fight a new form of Bowser as an important boss somewhere in the game.
I like to believe that the regular Mario universe and Paper Mario universe have identical events but one is just literally made out of paper since we do see Paper Mario original characters like Whacka and the Star Spirits in Mario Party 5
I wouldn't agree that nobody says the final boss of 3D Mario should never be someone new. While many of us do hope they have an original villain one day, in my experience most of the time when that subject comes up, there are hardcore traditionalists that emerge and say "no, it always needs to be Bowser, mainline games are supposed to be against Bowser, we have the spinoffs for other stuff, but it would be too weird for a mainline game to do that" (and usually these people, if you bring up the Land games or SMB2, will say something to the effect of "oh those were early in the franchise's life, it became consistently Bowser after that for good reason and it's gone on too long to change it now") (For the record I obviously agree that seeing an original main antagonist in a mainline Mario game would go insanely hard especially if it's designed in such a way that it holds a candle to the RPGs' villains)
Idk I know some people are like that but I think it's really just the vocal minority, most people that I know in the Mario fanbase aren't really opposed to the idea of a final boss other than Bowser. Every time I've mentioned the idea on Twitter and now Bluesky, I haven't really seen any people disagree with me but you probably have more experience dealing with traditionalist "maintain the status quo" Mario fans than me.
I disagree with the opening of this video. There is clear evidence that Miyamoto was against story in Paper Mario *"It's fine without a story, does it really need one"* and Tanabe directly listened *"So when Miyamoto-san, the father of Mario, asks us 'could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?', I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot. In other words, we are not currently thinking about returning to old NPCs"* No fan has disproved this with evidence. The IP Team and Tanabe also sharing the blame does not magically remove Miyamoto's influence to get the ball rolling.
I was literally hoping for Bowser NOT to be involved in the final boss this time around and was so happy when I got my wish lol. its good to see this trend FINALLY broken lol a precedent has been set in this series.
I grew up on the Mario Land series, so for me it's nothing weird for Mario to fight somebody new. If he can do it in the RPGs all the time, what makes the platformers any different? I love Bowser, but he doesn't need to be the ultimate Villain every single time.
Also, having a new villain opens up all new gameplay possibilities. Bowser is somewhat limited in the types of attacks he can have or the types of defeat methods you can use against him. If they design a new villain from scratch, they can design the whole final battle around the most fun gameplay mechanics and then see what kind of character would fit that battle the most.
I've always loved the idea of a Mario game where there is an evil version of Mario (not Wario, I mean irredeemable villian Mario) with a good guy version of Bowser on our team
antasma comeback with dreamy mario as a secondary antagonist, where his goal is revenge on bowser thus bowser is a 3rd character straight up like paper mario
Honestly, what I loved about this is that bowser isn’t the final boss. I love my boi bowser and having him help me in the end is great. Mario and Luigi was always good at making bowser either a side antagonist or even an ally and brothership continues this trend.
I thought the reason we liked the M&L series was because it broke away from the standard traditions of Mario while still feeling like that series. Don’t forget that Bowser is straight up, no debate needed, the villain of Paper Jam, which is the worst game in the series.
@@milesstorzillo7650dont listen to people and just play the game, you cannot say its "the worst" if you didnt play it, ive played almost every M&L games exept dream team, brothership is CLEARLY not the worst imo lmao.
@@kumasama2449 I was watching a playthrough. I don't find the writing to be all that great, especially the jokes, it took way too long to reach the 1st boss and receive the 1st Bros Attack, etc. Not gonna lie, I was so bored I actually stopped watching it. I didn't even get to the part where they got the Battle Plugs. And I've also heard the endgame really drags things out.
@@milesstorzillo7650 So you watched a playthrought of the early parts of the game, stopped then heard some things about the endgame dragging... Your opinion means nothing then. Again go play the game or don't, but dont call it the worst or the best of something if you didnt even truly experience it.
It’s more fitting to say that up until Brothership, Bowser styled entities were the final bosses of the series. This was also the same for both Giant and X Gauntlets, at least until Bowser’s Giant X Battles were added in the remake. BIS:Bowser X in the X Gauntlet, Bowser IS the Giant Battle character. DT: Bowser Jr in the X Gauntlet, Giant Bowser in the Giant Battles. PJ: Dry Bowser in the X Gauntlet, Giant Papercraft Bowser in the Papercraft battles.
I'm moreso glad they didn't feel the need to have Bowser's or Peach's Castle as the final dungeon since that's a convention they actually stuck to until now, and yet they still managed to feature both in the game in very nice ways.
It's true that every prior Mario & Luigi RPG has some form of Bowser as final boss, excluding Bowser's Minions and Bowser Jr's Journey, but that feels more like a coincidence than a tradition. Admittedly, I would have liked to see a Wiggler boss fight in Brothership. The game was a bit lacking in boss count.
It's not a misconception, it's hyperbole. They don't care whether or not it's technically bowser, because the point is that enough of the final bosses piggyback off of bowser in some way, instead of being entirely original, that it's worth pointing out the pattern.
Exactly I think we understood what they were saying at least I did. Anyone who played all the games and recognized the pattern kind of already knew what they meant. Someone who didn't probably wouldn't.
2:08 with the expection of Mario e Luigi Brothership, all Mario e Luigi feature Bowser or a variation as the final boss, Mario e luigi Superstar Saga: Bowletta Mario e luigi Partners in Time:Showser Mario e luigi Bowser Inside Story: Dark Bowser Mario e luigi Dream Team: Dreamy Bowser and Mario e Luigi Paper Jam: Shiny robo Bowser.
I'm honestly glad they broke the "tradition" because Dream Team may get an amazing final boss, the way Antasma, one of my favorite villain, got twarted away by Bowser in such a ridiculous way was pretty disappointing
That was the point, tho. Bowser had a character arc in the game, and the series as a whole. Throught the games, Bowser got ALWAYS used by the villains. Even in BIS, The Dark Star became Dark Bowser, a shameless copie of Bowser, humiliating him in some way. But in DT, Bowser had enough. Antasma was probably gonna betray Bowser once again, as is tradicion. Not this time, Bowser had ENOUGH. ENOUGH HUMILIATION.And so, we get one of the most badass things Bowser did EVER, by replacing Antasma, a seemingly stronger villain, and proving himself how trully treatning and irreplacable he is.
@@voltron77 I undertand it ruining Antasma (even i admit he could have been handled better), but how does it ruin Bowser???? If anything, it only made Bis more impactful, since it showed Bowser's true strength and cunning during the final battle and ending, and Dt was the book end. Like, can you genuinely explain to me how Dt ruined bowser's development????
@ It ruined it because Bis showed that bowser still had a heart, that he still fought against true evil when necessary, Antasma embodied that and Bowser really should have allied with the bros in the end, realizing his mistake. Or, he could have just never been in the game in the first place. He really wasn’t needed and the character development they gave him was backwards with what the previous three entries had established. Personally, I would have made him act like in brothership, where he’s at war with both the main villain and the bros, that would have made him cool as hell to be able to stand up to the power of the dream stone, would have let Antasma get the spotlight as the main villain and would have shown that Bowser, while an eternal enemy to the bros and a real threat, wasn’t pure evil. Bowser, in dream team, threatened to destroy the entire island, something he would never have done in previous entries, he wants to rule the world, not destroy it.
I think the point still stands though that they're still Bowser in some shape or form. Bowser's basically the only bad guy in the series, so its gets old seeing him being, "The final boss" whether it's actually him,a suit ,robot, or even clone at the end of the day it's still just a different version of the character. And while Brothership still continues the trend of fighting Bowser, the fact that he's not part of final boss's fight is a breath of fresh air.
I still want another Mario and Luigi game with bowser truly a part of the bros. Like paper Mario, like a trio on Mario and Luigi AND Bowser fighting as a true trio. The villains of that story would be awesome.
I'm honestly surprised no one has mentioned the trope of whatever gimmick the bros get bowser gets too. For example in partners in time were Mario and Luigi team up with their past selves bowser does the same
At least they somewhat kept the tradition of peach getting kidnapped Edit: how about this in every single Mario and Luigi game you fight a final villain similar to bowser 🫠
I don’t mind Bowser being the final boss or involved with the final boss in some way as long as something interesting is done with it. I liked Paper Jam’s final boss because while yeah, it did have Bowser, at least something cool with him by giving him shiny armor after fusing with Paper Bowser. That’s why I’m not the biggest fan of Paper Mario 64’s final boss. It’s just Bowser with nothing really unique about it
I completely get what you're saying Reecee. Personally how i put is as bowser being involved in the actual final boss fight itself. I'm fine with bowser, forms/ variations, or small parts being bosses in mario and luigi it makes sense. While it wouldn't have been a deal breaker for me I'm glad brothership gave us a final boss that didn't use Bowser's capabilities in some way. It was purely Reclusa and what he is capable of.
Well, if you want to be pedantic, every final boss before Brothership involved at least one phase where you're fighting something that looks like Bowser. Still, Reclusa is peak and I'm glad he's the final boss instead of a Bowser lookalike. Also, you still fight Bowser twice through the game.
I actually really liked Dream Team having Bowser as the final boss. Having played the 3 games beforehand, I was totally expecting Antasma to betray/posses Bowser at the end. Having Bowser go "No you chump I was planning to betray you from the get go!" and Antasma actually being shocked by this was such a great plot twist. The one thing I wanted in Brothership was more/any interactions between Bowser and Jr. Maybe have the brothers actively save Jr. and Bowser in return helping the Bros vs Reclusa.
I kind of figured bowser would betray him. You can tell bowser just didn't care about antasma it was interesting that antasma was betrayed and hurt by this it seemed that antasma was actually cool with working with bowser while bowser....wasn't lol
And yeah that was another thing I was expecting some kind of bowser and mario bros team up would of made perfect sense for this but it...didn't happen? Then bowser was kind of render useless for most of the game. If there was a time for a team up with bowser this would of been it but they missed the boat. Thought it was werid.
I don't think we NEEDED Bowser as the final boss. His fights earlier in the game were amazing as-is (especially the second) Hell I would've really liked a challenge node kinda area to refight a harder version of it as a final challenge
They're not understand Bowser is not the final pass but one thing tradition of the Mario Luigi game is giving Bowser form in the first game you have now you have Bowletta in superstar Saga Shrowser partner in time dark Bowser in inside story dreamy Bowser in Dream Team shiny rubber browser and pepper jam and finally glohm bowser
I disagree with nearly everything in this video. First off in partners in time I think that they didn’t mean to make Shrowser a “finishing blow” because if they wanted to do that that they would have just put it in the fight and not have to add a pointless boss to the end of the game. In the case of dark bowser I don’t get how you can say it was “technically the dark star” because just looking at his name, design, attacks, etc you can clearly see that it is supposed to be bowser. In the case a Bowletta even in you don’t count it’s first phase you are going inside of bowser and beating something up inside of him. And you can clearly see that bowser got hurt when you do beat Cakklettas soul. Overall I think a lot of your arguments are “technically it wasn’t bowser but I think the problem fans had was the actual contents of the bosses The similar attacks (using fire and minions) and the designs. Because I would be mad if I’m playing a series of games that all had a similar looking final boss. Anyways thanks for reading my comment that went on for way too long :)
Shrowser is techinally the final boss but not in Spirit you can definetly make the argument that its not really a final boss but at the same time it is the final boss since its the last boss of the game. I am glad that Brothership is 100% no Bowser final boss no at all sense. But yeah partners in time is debatable for sure but I get why people say shrowser doesn't count. i mean its still there so it still counts in my book vs reclusa theres no Bowser whatsoever. I feel like they just threw that in cause there was like some secret mandate by Nintendo to have have Bowser as the final boss at the end in some capacity and Alphadream just forgot about and then shoehorned him in there. Of course thats just my own head theory idk if it is true or not but it sure did feel like it seeing how pointless that boss battle was. lol.
The biggest problem with brother ship Roclusa he is the weakest final boss in gameplay perspective not in story he has the least Attack of all the final boss a lot of attacks not that difficult
I understand where your coming from, and I agree the Mario rpgs shouldn’t have bowser as the final boss all the time. But Reclusa is such a lame final boss. Especially in comparison to the other M&L final bosses (even cardboard bowser). The part where he’s the tree and you climb up him is fine, but the actual fight didn’t feel like it was as challenging as it should’ve been. Zokket felt way harder than Reclusa imo. I hope the team that made this game is allowed to make the follow up. They got really close to having a great game but they just need more time to cook.
There is ZERO evidence disproving Miyamoto hating stories *"It's fine without a story, does it really need one"* and Tanabe then stating *"So when Miyamoto-san, the father of Mario, asks us 'could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?', I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot. In other words, we are not currently thinking about returning to old NPCs"* How does someone as influential Miyamoto have no responsibility for what he tells staff at Nintendo?
@@mynameisntimportant1374 "There's fan videos!" is not an argument. A fan saying something does not make it fact. None of Super Mario Ts videos have debunked these quotes being fact.
@@mynameisntimportant1374 Was Miyamoto and Tanabe delusional when they stated *"It's fine without a story, does it really need one"* and *"So when Miyamoto-san, the father of Mario, asks us 'could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?', I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot"* Were they lying?
![We Have To Talk About [REDACTED] From Mario & Luigi: Brothership](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/itb0u9F3qtA/mqdefault.jpg)
Idk I think most people don’t literally mean every final boss is Bowser but some variation/involves him. However I am glad he isn’t the final boss in any shape or form. Having him be there in some fashion got repetitive so I welcome Reclusa.
I know most people do just mean that it's just Bowser's involvement in general but I still think it's a bit misleading that people call it a "tradition" when it is really just a technicality, especially in Partner's in Time's case.
I was just gonna say this we know Bowser isn't "techinally" the final boss in every Mario and Luigi but the mofo still has some involvement this is the first game where he has literally zero and it is a breath of fresh air I was genenily suprised cause when he showed up at the very end to save Mario and luigi I though for SURE reclusa was gonna do some werid bowser and reclusa merger and we'd have reclwser or something corny like that again. Thank God I was wrong lol.
@@Reecee I think the fanbase knows what people are talking about. Cause I discussed this before the game came out I was HOPING that bowser would not have any invovlment in the final boss and to my suprised I got my wish. Kind of one of the reason i can't hate on brothership cause it gave me a lot of what I was asking for even though it feel short in other areas I didn't expect it to fall short in lol.
Pretty much. Like we get it Bowser's the main baddie of the franchise but that doesn't mean he has to incorporated in every boss.
Yeah it was also nice to see Reclusa get scraped and become a new Windows computer.
Reclusa's quote "It's better living in your own little world and enjoying what you like all alone! It's the best and only way to enjoy life!" really fits those Mario & Luigi 'fans' and their unrealistic expectations. Makes you think.
No. That can be weaponized by both sides. Both sides are being Reclusa by saying "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG" and trying to completely expel them from the fanbase. You're no better than they are.
Madara moment
I've seen this misconception everywhere and it does kind of drive me a little nuts. Like, calling Shrowser the "final boss" in Partners in Time is a huge stretch. It's very clear that Elder Princess Shroob is the actual final boss, and Shrowser is just a quick little romp to close out the game. As you mentioned in the video, while Bowletta technically is Bowser, he's completely possessed, to the point where he has no free will. Plus, the bulk of the final battle is not Bowletta, rather it's Cackletta's Soul, which has nothing to do with Bowser. And then Dark Bowser is even less related because it's actually the Dark Star, which is a completely different entity than Bowser.
I really don't get where this whole idea that Bowser's always the final boss came from. Also, how is breaking this "tradition" a bad thing anyway? I would think people would be glad to have a final boss that isn't Bowser (Even though the only ones that really were Bowser to begin with are in Dream Team and Paper Jam, so it wasn't really much of an issue anyway).
he is in some form. you can make a strong case for Partners in time but techinally speaking he is still in there. lol. Like I said I feel like they threw shrowser in there cause theres some werid mandate saying Bowser has to be the final boss in some capacity and they forgot to do it while making the game then just decided to threw in this werid semi boss fight to kind fullfill that requirement or something.
Of course I welcome reclusa. I think Antasma should have been the final boss of dream team.
Also Dark Bowser is the final boss specifically so we can see Bowser fight himself. Mario and Luigi don't fight him, they fight Fawful the bug.
Wait? People are complaining about that? Before Brothership people kept complaining about how the final boss had to be bowser in some capacity every single time, and now they're complaining that he isn't? Make up your mind people.
Same with the koopalings before wonder
I swear, it's IMPOSSIBLE to please people like that!
I think the only tradition that didn't got respected is having a Wiggler boss fight, especially since the game really lack some bosses
Now that’s something I agree with. If we’re arguing about how Reclusa broke the Bowser cycle, it was Elder Shroob who did that first. But EVERY SINGLE M&L GAME HAS HAD SOME FORM OF WIGGLER FIGHT!
@@ChasetheYTcheetah Elder shroob is still debatable though cause of shrowser I can definetly see the argument made on elder shroob but at the same time it wasn't completely broken cause you still had shrowser. But reclusa without a doubt definetly broke this cycle. and the wiggler cycle which is good cause wiggler forking annoying lol.
Idk how that could have happened when brothership doesn’t happen in the mushroom world
Superstar Saga and Dream Team didn’t either
@@paulgilbert5278 both of them were still in the mushroom world
Bowser might not be the final boss every game but he is a boss in every game
Though you could make arguments for superstar saga
I remember people complaining that Bowser was the final boss in Dream Team, now they complain he was not the final boss... ¬¬
Should’ve brought back Fawful
@@kaiserwave5977 he exploded inside bowser that wouldnt make sense
I thought it was really cool to finally have Bowser be the main antagonist in a Mario & Luigi game cuz up until then he was always playing second fiddle to a different villain so having him be the big bad instead was really cool.
@@kaiserwave5977
Fawful committed sudoku at the end of BIS...
it definitely feels disingenuous for people to count shrowser as partners in time having bowser as the final boss because its the last thing you could possibly count as a fight, while saying bowletta or dark bowser count even though the last thing you fight isnt bowser or even bowser adjacent in either of those cases, its cackletta soul or the dark star core
Let's not forget the side stories either. Bowser isn't the final boss in Bowser's Minions or Bowser Jr's Journey in any form whatsoever. The former has Fawful, the latter has the Best Fitness Friends fusion.
But honestly? Yeah, it's pushing it to say Bowser is the final boss in the games other than Dream Team or Paper Jam. Besides, if you want a Bowser tradition, this game has one; you fight a new form of Bowser as an important boss somewhere in the game.
The paper Mario games are canon they just happen in a parallel world to the main Mario one
I like to believe that the regular Mario universe and Paper Mario universe have identical events but one is just literally made out of paper since we do see Paper Mario original characters like Whacka and the Star Spirits in Mario Party 5
@@megaplays2748 paper peach to starlow in paper jam : who are you ?
The star spirits not remembering anyone in the cast in Mario party 5
@mynameisntimportant1374 Mfw the game with bad writing has bad writing
@@megaplays2748 doesn’t excuse the that it’s canon lore
I wouldn't agree that nobody says the final boss of 3D Mario should never be someone new. While many of us do hope they have an original villain one day, in my experience most of the time when that subject comes up, there are hardcore traditionalists that emerge and say "no, it always needs to be Bowser, mainline games are supposed to be against Bowser, we have the spinoffs for other stuff, but it would be too weird for a mainline game to do that" (and usually these people, if you bring up the Land games or SMB2, will say something to the effect of "oh those were early in the franchise's life, it became consistently Bowser after that for good reason and it's gone on too long to change it now")
(For the record I obviously agree that seeing an original main antagonist in a mainline Mario game would go insanely hard especially if it's designed in such a way that it holds a candle to the RPGs' villains)
Idk I know some people are like that but I think it's really just the vocal minority, most people that I know in the Mario fanbase aren't really opposed to the idea of a final boss other than Bowser. Every time I've mentioned the idea on Twitter and now Bluesky, I haven't really seen any people disagree with me but you probably have more experience dealing with traditionalist "maintain the status quo" Mario fans than me.
I disagree with the opening of this video. There is clear evidence that Miyamoto was against story in Paper Mario *"It's fine without a story, does it really need one"* and Tanabe directly listened *"So when Miyamoto-san, the father of Mario, asks us 'could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?', I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot. In other words, we are not currently thinking about returning to old NPCs"* No fan has disproved this with evidence. The IP Team and Tanabe also sharing the blame does not magically remove Miyamoto's influence to get the ball rolling.
I was literally hoping for Bowser NOT to be involved in the final boss this time around and was so happy when I got my wish lol. its good to see this trend FINALLY broken lol a precedent has been set in this series.
I grew up on the Mario Land series, so for me it's nothing weird for Mario to fight somebody new.
If he can do it in the RPGs all the time, what makes the platformers any different?
I love Bowser, but he doesn't need to be the ultimate Villain every single time.
Also, having a new villain opens up all new gameplay possibilities.
Bowser is somewhat limited in the types of attacks he can have or the types of defeat methods you can use against him.
If they design a new villain from scratch, they can design the whole final battle around the most fun gameplay mechanics and then see what kind of character would fit that battle the most.
I've always wanted fighting against different boss other than Bowser, it's kind of boring if every single game ends with Bowser as Final boss.
I've always loved the idea of a Mario game where there is an evil version of Mario (not Wario, I mean irredeemable villian Mario) with a good guy version of Bowser on our team
antasma comeback with dreamy mario as a secondary antagonist, where his goal is revenge on bowser thus bowser is a 3rd character straight up like paper mario
That sounds amazing!
At least they somewhat kept the tradition of peach getting kidnapped
Honestly, what I loved about this is that bowser isn’t the final boss. I love my boi bowser and having him help me in the end is great. Mario and Luigi was always good at making bowser either a side antagonist or even an ally and brothership continues this trend.
I thought the reason we liked the M&L series was because it broke away from the standard traditions of Mario while still feeling like that series. Don’t forget that Bowser is straight up, no debate needed, the villain of Paper Jam, which is the worst game in the series.
If what I've heard about Brothership is true, I'd arguably say it's the worst. Either that or Partners in Time.
@@milesstorzillo7650dont listen to people and just play the game, you cannot say its "the worst" if you didnt play it, ive played almost every M&L games exept dream team, brothership is CLEARLY not the worst imo lmao.
@@kumasama2449 I was watching a playthrough. I don't find the writing to be all that great, especially the jokes, it took way too long to reach the 1st boss and receive the 1st Bros Attack, etc. Not gonna lie, I was so bored I actually stopped watching it. I didn't even get to the part where they got the Battle Plugs. And I've also heard the endgame really drags things out.
@@milesstorzillo7650 So you watched a playthrought of the early parts of the game, stopped then heard some things about the endgame dragging... Your opinion means nothing then.
Again go play the game or don't, but dont call it the worst or the best of something if you didnt even truly experience it.
@@milesstorzillo7650it takes its time to give the player all the combat tools but that doesn't mean it wasn't fun along the way.
It’s more fitting to say that up until Brothership, Bowser styled entities were the final bosses of the series. This was also the same for both Giant and X Gauntlets, at least until Bowser’s Giant X Battles were added in the remake.
BIS:Bowser X in the X Gauntlet, Bowser IS the Giant Battle character.
DT: Bowser Jr in the X Gauntlet, Giant Bowser in the Giant Battles.
PJ: Dry Bowser in the X Gauntlet, Giant Papercraft Bowser in the Papercraft battles.
I'm moreso glad they didn't feel the need to have Bowser's or Peach's Castle as the final dungeon since that's a convention they actually stuck to until now, and yet they still managed to feature both in the game in very nice ways.
It's true that every prior Mario & Luigi RPG has some form of Bowser as final boss, excluding Bowser's Minions and Bowser Jr's Journey, but that feels more like a coincidence than a tradition. Admittedly, I would have liked to see a Wiggler boss fight in Brothership. The game was a bit lacking in boss count.
There is a difference between valid criticism and complain for the sake of complaining is what I got from this case.
It is a Mario and Luigi tradition to fight a possesed or much stronger version of bowser at the end it was in every game
It's not a misconception, it's hyperbole.
They don't care whether or not it's technically bowser, because the point is that enough of the final bosses piggyback off of bowser in some way, instead of being entirely original, that it's worth pointing out the pattern.
Exactly I think we understood what they were saying at least I did. Anyone who played all the games and recognized the pattern kind of already knew what they meant. Someone who didn't probably wouldn't.
2:08 with the expection of Mario e Luigi Brothership, all Mario e Luigi feature Bowser or a variation as the final boss,
Mario e luigi Superstar Saga: Bowletta
Mario e luigi Partners in Time:Showser
Mario e luigi Bowser Inside Story: Dark Bowser
Mario e luigi Dream Team: Dreamy Bowser and Mario e Luigi Paper Jam: Shiny robo Bowser.
I'm honestly glad they broke the "tradition" because Dream Team may get an amazing final boss, the way Antasma, one of my favorite villain, got twarted away by Bowser in such a ridiculous way was pretty disappointing
That was the point, tho. Bowser had a character arc in the game, and the series as a whole. Throught the games, Bowser got ALWAYS used by the villains. Even in BIS, The Dark Star became Dark Bowser, a shameless copie of Bowser, humiliating him in some way.
But in DT, Bowser had enough. Antasma was probably gonna betray Bowser once again, as is tradicion. Not this time, Bowser had ENOUGH. ENOUGH HUMILIATION.And so, we get one of the most badass things Bowser did EVER, by replacing Antasma, a seemingly stronger villain, and proving himself how trully treatning and irreplacable he is.
Antasma boss fight was better than dreamy bowser
Yeah I hated this because it made bowser’s character development in Bis meaningless and ruined Antasma as a villain to me.
@@voltron77 I undertand it ruining Antasma (even i admit he could have been handled better), but how does it ruin Bowser???? If anything, it only made Bis more impactful, since it showed Bowser's true strength and cunning during the final battle and ending, and Dt was the book end.
Like, can you genuinely explain to me how Dt ruined bowser's development????
@ It ruined it because Bis showed that bowser still had a heart, that he still fought against true evil when necessary, Antasma embodied that and Bowser really should have allied with the bros in the end, realizing his mistake. Or, he could have just never been in the game in the first place. He really wasn’t needed and the character development they gave him was backwards with what the previous three entries had established. Personally, I would have made him act like in brothership, where he’s at war with both the main villain and the bros, that would have made him cool as hell to be able to stand up to the power of the dream stone, would have let Antasma get the spotlight as the main villain and would have shown that Bowser, while an eternal enemy to the bros and a real threat, wasn’t pure evil. Bowser, in dream team, threatened to destroy the entire island, something he would never have done in previous entries, he wants to rule the world, not destroy it.
I think the point still stands though that they're still Bowser in some shape or form. Bowser's basically the only bad guy in the series, so its gets old seeing him being, "The final boss" whether it's actually him,a suit ,robot, or even clone at the end of the day it's still just a different version of the character. And while Brothership still continues the trend of fighting Bowser, the fact that he's not part of final boss's fight is a breath of fresh air.
I still want another Mario and Luigi game with bowser truly a part of the bros. Like paper Mario, like a trio on Mario and Luigi AND Bowser fighting as a true trio. The villains of that story would be awesome.
I'm honestly surprised no one has mentioned the trope of whatever gimmick the bros get bowser gets too. For example in partners in time were Mario and Luigi team up with their past selves bowser does the same
Yeah, I was hoping for a Bowser/Junior team up where they use combo attacks and Junior Logic against Luigi Logic.
At least they somewhat kept the tradition of peach getting kidnapped
Edit: how about this in every single Mario and Luigi game you fight a final villain similar to bowser 🫠
Not as bad as Ganondorf supposedly behind being the "new villain" in Zelda (which was only in FSA and TP).
I don’t mind Bowser being the final boss or involved with the final boss in some way as long as something interesting is done with it. I liked Paper Jam’s final boss because while yeah, it did have Bowser, at least something cool with him by giving him shiny armor after fusing with Paper Bowser. That’s why I’m not the biggest fan of Paper Mario 64’s final boss. It’s just Bowser with nothing really unique about it
I completely get what you're saying Reecee. Personally how i put is as bowser being involved in the actual final boss fight itself. I'm fine with bowser, forms/ variations, or small parts being bosses in mario and luigi it makes sense. While it wouldn't have been a deal breaker for me I'm glad brothership gave us a final boss that didn't use Bowser's capabilities in some way. It was purely Reclusa and what he is capable of.
I'm more upset at the apparent lack of a wiggler boss
Well, if you want to be pedantic, every final boss before Brothership involved at least one phase where you're fighting something that looks like Bowser. Still, Reclusa is peak and I'm glad he's the final boss instead of a Bowser lookalike. Also, you still fight Bowser twice through the game.
I actually really liked Dream Team having Bowser as the final boss. Having played the 3 games beforehand, I was totally expecting Antasma to betray/posses Bowser at the end. Having Bowser go "No you chump I was planning to betray you from the get go!" and Antasma actually being shocked by this was such a great plot twist. The one thing I wanted in Brothership was more/any interactions between Bowser and Jr. Maybe have the brothers actively save Jr. and Bowser in return helping the Bros vs Reclusa.
I kind of figured bowser would betray him. You can tell bowser just didn't care about antasma it was interesting that antasma was betrayed and hurt by this it seemed that antasma was actually cool with working with bowser while bowser....wasn't lol
And yeah that was another thing I was expecting some kind of bowser and mario bros team up would of made perfect sense for this but it...didn't happen? Then bowser was kind of render useless for most of the game. If there was a time for a team up with bowser this would of been it but they missed the boat. Thought it was werid.
I don't think we NEEDED Bowser as the final boss. His fights earlier in the game were amazing as-is (especially the second)
Hell I would've really liked a challenge node kinda area to refight a harder version of it as a final challenge
They mean bowser type characters, which is true
They're not understand Bowser is not the final pass but one thing tradition of the Mario Luigi game is giving Bowser form in the first game you have now you have Bowletta in superstar Saga Shrowser partner in time dark Bowser in inside story dreamy Bowser in Dream Team shiny rubber browser and pepper jam and finally glohm bowser
Paper mario never was canon at all
So is the Mario & Luigi it's in it's own universe same gose for freaking Super mario rpg
I disagree with nearly everything in this video.
First off in partners in time I think that they didn’t mean to make Shrowser a “finishing blow” because if they wanted to do that that they would have just put it in the fight and not have to add a pointless boss to the end of the game.
In the case of dark bowser I don’t get how you can say it was “technically the dark star” because just looking at his name, design, attacks, etc you can clearly see that it is supposed to be bowser.
In the case a Bowletta even in you don’t count it’s first phase you are going inside of bowser and beating something up inside of him. And you can clearly see that bowser got hurt when you do beat Cakklettas soul.
Overall I think a lot of your arguments are “technically it wasn’t bowser but I think the problem fans had was the actual contents of the bosses
The similar attacks (using fire and minions) and the designs. Because I would be mad if I’m playing a series of games that all had a similar looking final boss.
Anyways thanks for reading my comment that went on for way
too long :)
Shrowser is techinally the final boss but not in Spirit you can definetly make the argument that its not really a final boss but at the same time it is the final boss since its the last boss of the game. I am glad that Brothership is 100% no Bowser final boss no at all sense. But yeah partners in time is debatable for sure but I get why people say shrowser doesn't count. i mean its still there so it still counts in my book vs reclusa theres no Bowser whatsoever.
I feel like they just threw that in cause there was like some secret mandate by Nintendo to have have Bowser as the final boss at the end in some capacity and Alphadream just forgot about and then shoehorned him in there. Of course thats just my own head theory idk if it is true or not but it sure did feel like it seeing how pointless that boss battle was. lol.
The biggest problem with brother ship Roclusa he is the weakest final boss in gameplay perspective not in story he has the least Attack of all the final boss a lot of attacks not that difficult
Yeah even zokket was harder than him. Lol.
@@zariaalhajmoustafa2573 Who is Roclusa? Didn't know Reclusa had a twin.
I understand where your coming from, and I agree the Mario rpgs shouldn’t have bowser as the final boss all the time. But Reclusa is such a lame final boss. Especially in comparison to the other M&L final bosses (even cardboard bowser). The part where he’s the tree and you climb up him is fine, but the actual fight didn’t feel like it was as challenging as it should’ve been. Zokket felt way harder than Reclusa imo. I hope the team that made this game is allowed to make the follow up. They got really close to having a great game but they just need more time to cook.
Bowser's iconic catchphrase
There is ZERO evidence disproving Miyamoto hating stories *"It's fine without a story, does it really need one"* and Tanabe then stating *"So when Miyamoto-san, the father of Mario, asks us 'could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?', I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot. In other words, we are not currently thinking about returning to old NPCs"* How does someone as influential Miyamoto have no responsibility for what he tells staff at Nintendo?
There are 2 entire videos debunk this
@@mynameisntimportant1374 "There's fan videos!" is not an argument. A fan saying something does not make it fact. None of Super Mario Ts videos have debunked these quotes being fact.
@@RARANMA and of course you’re not gonna debunk but just keep coping with your delusional narrative
@@mynameisntimportant1374 *"It's fine without a story, does it really need one"* is a delusion? Did the developers not state this fact?
@@mynameisntimportant1374 Was Miyamoto and Tanabe delusional when they stated *"It's fine without a story, does it really need one"* and *"So when Miyamoto-san, the father of Mario, asks us 'could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?', I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot"* Were they lying?
hii