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The sinking of the Bayesian Yacht - An honest discussion
Dick Beaumont, Kraken Yachts Founder, sits down to talk about the tragic sinking of the Bayesian with sailing journalist, Dick Durham.
P.S There were a few technical issues with the recording of the video, we hope it doesn’t distract from the conversation!
มุมมอง: 98 074

วีดีโอ

Setting Sail to Success: Kraken Yachts' Expansion Journey Explained!
มุมมอง 4.2K4 หลายเดือนก่อน
Kraken Expansion Plans You may have seen on our website about Kraken’s exciting expansion plans. Dick B recently got in front of the camera to talk in-depth about the exciting news! Watch the full video here…
Which material really is the best for building a world cruising yacht? Metal or GRP?
มุมมอง 8K7 หลายเดือนก่อน
Which material really is the best for building a world cruising yacht? In this episode Dick Beaumont of Kraken and Dick Durham discuss which is the best material for building a world cruising yacht, Metal or GRP? If you'd like to ask a question, please add it to the comments with "Q&A" at the start and we'll add it to the list. For more news on everything Kraken, check out our website. krakenya...
Kraken Yachts presents - In the Yard - Episode 4: The Vacuum and Infusion process
มุมมอง 3.4K8 หลายเดือนก่อน
Welcome to our brand new TH-cam series "In The Yard". In this series we'll show you an exclusive behind the scenes look at what goes into the building of a Kraken yacht, not just the finished article. As Dick B puts it, "it's going to be rough and ready" but we really hope you enjoy it. In episode 4 we show you the process of Vacuum and Infusion. Please like and subscribe as it really helps our...
How much does it really cost to take off and sail around the world?
มุมมอง 19K9 หลายเดือนก่อน
How much does it cost to take off and sail around the world? The answer will shock you! Happy Christmas everyone! Over the last few months we’ve been gathering questions to ask Dick B and Dick D about World Cruising, the first part is here. Enjoy! If you'd like to ask a question, please add it to the comments with "Q&A" at the start and we'll add it to the list. For more news on everything Krak...
Kraken Yachts presents - In the Yard - Episode 3: Applying the skin coat
มุมมอง 2.5K10 หลายเดือนก่อน
Welcome to our brand new TH-cam series "In The Yard". In this series we'll show you an exclusive behind the scenes look at what goes into the building of a Kraken yacht, not just the finished article. As Dick B puts it, "it's going to be rough and ready" but we really hope you enjoy it. In episode 3 we show you the process of applying the skin coat and dry fibre layup. Enjoy! In other news, we ...
Kraken Yachts presents - In the Yard - Episode 2: Spraying the gelcoat
มุมมอง 2.8K10 หลายเดือนก่อน
Welcome to our brand new TH-cam series "In The Yard". In this series we'll show you an exclusive behind the scenes look at what goes into the building of a Kraken yacht, not just the finished article. As Dick B puts it, "it's going to be rough and ready" but we really hope you enjoy it. In episode 2 Dogan, our Lamination Engineer shows you the process of spraying the gelcoat. Enjoy! In the near...
Kraken Yachts presents - In the Yard - Episode 1: Preparation of the mould
มุมมอง 3.6K11 หลายเดือนก่อน
Welcome to our brand new TH-cam series "In The Yard". In this series we'll show you an exclusive behind the scenes look at what goes into the building of a Kraken yacht, not just the finished article. As Dick B puts it, "it's going to be rough and ready" but we really hope you enjoy it. In episode 1 Dogan, our Lamination Engineer shows you how we prepare the mould before the gelcoat is applied....
Ocean Sailor Podcast : Episode 16 - Catching up with the Millennials Part 2
มุมมอง 3.6Kปีที่แล้ว
We are back after an extended hiatus due to our busy schedule at Kraken HQ. Dick Beaumont has been on the ground in Bodrum through the launch of the new Kraken 50. Join him for our second part of Catching up with the Millennials. Dick Beaumont will be joined by Dick Durham in the next episode for a very special sit down with David Wilkinson, all will be revealed soon! Have a question you would ...
What is the Code K?
มุมมอง 6Kปีที่แล้ว
We set out to design the perfect downwind sail to compliment our versatile solent rig and standard sail wardrobe. Join us to learn about the Code K and why we designed it. Have a question you would like to ask? Write it in the comments or email us at sales@krakenyachts.com For all things Blue Water Cruising, check out Ocean Sailor Magazine and the Ocean Sailor Podcast. krakenyachts.com/oceansai...
Ocean Sailor Podcast : Episode 15 - Catching up with the Millennials
มุมมอง 4.7Kปีที่แล้ว
This week, a lonely Dick Beaumont is joined by Adam and Khiara from Sailing Millennial Falcon for a catch up after an amazing year. We find out what they have been up to, such as Adam's new TH-cam channel www.youtube.com/@UC5g1vVzeZkUuhOzlDCofP1g and Dick explains the record year at Kraken. Dick Durham was away for this discussion but will be back in Episode 17. Have a question you would like t...
A Round Table Discussion with Kraken - Part 1
มุมมอง 4.2Kปีที่แล้ว
Yachting journalist Dick Durham and Ocean Sailor John Costi-Mouyia are joined by Kraken's Chairman Dick Beaumont to discuss the finer points of what makes a Kraken yacht. This is the first part of a two part series with part 2 coming soon. Have a question you would like to ask? Write it in the comments or email us at hello@oceansailormagazine.com For all things Blue Water Cruising, check out Oc...
The Ocean Sailor Podcast : Episode 14 - Psychology at Sea with Brian Trautman from SV Delos - Part 2
มุมมอง 4.2Kปีที่แล้ว
We're Back! After an extended hiatus the two Dicks are back on the airwaves. It has been a crazy year for Kraken Yachts and Ocean Sailor and unfortunately the podcast had to be put on hold. We are happy to share that we have new episodes already recorded and further podcasts planned so stay tuned. The first podcast of the year is the second part of our discussion with SV Delos's Brian Trautman,...
A Kraken Christmas Message
มุมมอง 2.8Kปีที่แล้ว
Ho ho ho, Kraken Chairman, Dick Beaumont is here to deliver a Christmas message looking back over a fantastic 2022 and a look forward to the exciting year ahead. As well as Kraken, Ocean Sailor made the move to TH-cam this year and we share a few of the moments where it did not go to plan with some special bloopers. From everyone at Kraken Yachts and Ocean Sailor, we wish you a Merry Christmas ...
Kraken Comes to Bodrum : Part 2 - Sailing & Sights With the Mayor
มุมมอง 3.4Kปีที่แล้ว
Kraken Comes to Bodrum : Part 2 - Sailing & Sights With the Mayor
Ahoy - Monohulls VS Catamarans
มุมมอง 21Kปีที่แล้ว
Ahoy - Monohulls VS Catamarans
Kraken Comes to Bodrum : Part 1 - A Visit from the Mayor
มุมมอง 3.8Kปีที่แล้ว
Kraken Comes to Bodrum : Part 1 - A Visit from the Mayor
Kraken DNA - Kaya Ropes
มุมมอง 4.5Kปีที่แล้ว
Kraken DNA - Kaya Ropes
Ahoy - Yachts to Sail the World on a Budget
มุมมอง 19K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Ahoy - Yachts to Sail the World on a Budget
Birth of a Blue Water Yacht - Episode 1: Laminates
มุมมอง 9K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Birth of a Blue Water Yacht - Episode 1: Laminates
Ahoy - Solent Rig
มุมมอง 9K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Ahoy - Solent Rig
Ahoy - Gas Cookers
มุมมอง 4.3K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Ahoy - Gas Cookers
Kraken 50 - Deck Walkthrough : Part 3
มุมมอง 12K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Kraken 50 - Deck Walkthrough : Part 3
Stepping Onboard with Sailing Fair Isle
มุมมอง 8K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Stepping Onboard with Sailing Fair Isle
Kraken 50 - Deck Walkthrough : Part 2
มุมมอง 13K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Kraken 50 - Deck Walkthrough : Part 2
Sailors Stories - Dick Beaumont
มุมมอง 9K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Sailors Stories - Dick Beaumont
Ahoy - All things Keels
มุมมอง 4.7K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Ahoy - All things Keels
Why Ocean Sailor is Changing....
มุมมอง 4.2K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Why Ocean Sailor is Changing....
Kraken 50 - Deck Walkthrough : Part 1
มุมมอง 14K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Kraken 50 - Deck Walkthrough : Part 1
Kraken 50 Solent Rig - Butterfly
มุมมอง 12K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Kraken 50 Solent Rig - Butterfly

ความคิดเห็น

  • @ConkerKing
    @ConkerKing ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    Stop rattling the bloody mic...

  • @batchint
    @batchint ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    I have been trying to warn people if they live with land locked gardens and the storms that have been drenching us over the weekend they may find they are unnecessarily flooded…. this follows the shedding of what seems to be a blinder… in this excellent conversation… thank you for your expertise… 🧚🏻

  • @tomasnilsson866
    @tomasnilsson866 วันที่ผ่านมา

    amazing content, thank you

  • @eugeneburke1279
    @eugeneburke1279 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Congratulations on a very honest and open interview, totally agree

  • @markwriter2698
    @markwriter2698 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Just looked up down burst. Not sure how anyone could predict such an event. Apparently the ship has been at sea for sixteen years. Very sad . Thank you for explaining what you understand.

  • @LorRep
    @LorRep วันที่ผ่านมา

    "Honest discussion"?!

  • @aaronmacphee
    @aaronmacphee วันที่ผ่านมา

    At sea, the sea’s the governor! Design accordingly

  • @christopherrobb1004
    @christopherrobb1004 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I saw the CAPE factor forecast on the afternoon before the incident. And it was the highest factir i have ever seen. It does indicate the potential for extreme convection events. So not entirely true that it came out of the blue.

  • @MartinDauer
    @MartinDauer 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Thanks for this discussion! I got very concerned about the way how the CEO and some italian media made up their „analysis“ „finding“ the one responsible so early on while dead bodies were still 50m below waterline,

  • @mi8344
    @mi8344 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    this is all total bull. it was a bomb. an assassination. his lawyer murdered in hit n run on same day. the truth will be told.

  • @Kosmonooit
    @Kosmonooit 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    And f-all ballast to stop it sinking. Sliding salon doors were probably open anyway. The down.burst is caused by falling water. Intense column of rain. Wind on the mast caused it to keel over, leverage, should be easy to calculate

  • @primethought246graver5
    @primethought246graver5 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    No one cares how long you've spent at sea don't diluded yourself that bobbing around in the fucking ocean makes you knowledgeable who did Mike Lynch get involved with in 2023? JP MORGAN the same banking criminal group that were involved sinking another unsinkable ship from our past???

  • @furiousfelicia5751
    @furiousfelicia5751 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    It looks to me solent rigs are great for downwind sailing.

  • @paolomassetti2040
    @paolomassetti2040 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Thank you, I'm sure you are very detached when do you talks of Perini boath admin

  • @peterlbaldwin511
    @peterlbaldwin511 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    It is Heartening to hear Mr. Dick Beaumont of "Kraken Yachts", mention an often ignored, yet crucial feature of modern "Luxury Yacht ," builds, that of "Sea-worthiness". I fear that, there are far too many builders of this "luxury yacht" class of vessel, who in order to cater to the demands of ultra wealthy clients, many of whom have little or no appreciation or even understanding of the realities of marine vessels, are quite prepared to compromise the potential safety of a vessel, in extreme conditions. The fact that the sloop "Bayesian", combined several such features, which taken individually, may require careful attention, such as the propensity for the desirable and glamourous, massive heavy glass doors separating the aft cockpit from the saloon, to slide open when the yacht heeled whilst under sail, a notable feature of this builders sailing yachts. Then there was the outrageously tall "alloy" mast(considerably heavier than "carbon fibre" equivalents) and really more of a boastful, than a necessary, practical, feature. The location of the essential air intakes for ventilation of the engine room, being located for "aesthetic" appeal, in the hull, apparently fitted with shutters to keep water out, when the vessel was heeling under sail, but usually left open, when motoring or at anchor. The seeming paucity of "escape hatches" for both passengers and crew. Under normal circumstances these aspects of the vessel might require careful consideration, but under extreme circumstances combined to form a tragically lethal situation..My concerns apply equally to many of the modern luxury motor yachts as well..

  • @claverton
    @claverton 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    To understand the type of people behind Perini Navi you only have to look at the fact that they are now suing the widow of the owner of Bayesian for millions of dollars for reputational damage and loss of income via cancelled orders, a woman who not only lost her husband but also her young daughter in this tragedy.

  • @elchinpirbabayev5757
    @elchinpirbabayev5757 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    obviously while people do built entire countries in seismic zones (Turkey) by loosening construction standards to stimulate the industry, and tsunami-vulnerable nuclear reactors in tsunami zones (Japan), expecting Italians not to cater to unreasonable market demands is also unrealistic. Everything to make the economy run.. it's a global problem, but not environmental one, as the guy suggests.

  • @katej3z715
    @katej3z715 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Some of the dead were suffocated, not drowned in cabins that then flooded. We do not know what the combination of factors and events were. From a seafaring family, I note there had been a plan to party. Alcohol can be a big if everyone was relaxed before a storm. It is just one of many, many questions. We must not have trial by media.

  • @bengilbert5610
    @bengilbert5610 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Wouldn't there be a watertight door from the side deck well into the lounge? Wouldn't this have prevented a massive inflow of water?

  • @MichaelEagleton-hw6sx
    @MichaelEagleton-hw6sx 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Very interesting and helpful interview to help understand the possible dynamics of such a tragic sinking. My questions are as follows: what is the angle of vanishing stability with the keel down? What is the down flooding angle with the keel down? Why wouldn’t the captain have kept the keel down if he knew a blow was on its way? Surely, with the benefit of hindsight no captain of a perini will anchor with the keel up in future (unless they are in a port)..

  • @MichaelEagleton-hw6sx
    @MichaelEagleton-hw6sx 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Very interesting and helpful interview to help understand the possible dynamics of such a tragic sinking. My questions are as follows: what is the angle of vanishing stability with the keel down? What is the down flooding angle with the keel down? Why wouldn’t the captain have kept the keel down if he knew a blow was on its way? Surely, with the benefit of hindsight no captain of a perini will anchor with the keel up in future (unless they are in a port)..

  • @mikewarrenitaly
    @mikewarrenitaly 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    amazing analysis. Thank you guys for this

  • @lizziefreeborn2576
    @lizziefreeborn2576 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Style over substance, basic, massive seaworthy design flaws obvious to a kiddy with a toy boat in a bath. Immoral blame shifting by the Italian company. The truth must out and the captain and crew exonerated .

  • @richarde1964
    @richarde1964 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Interesting take until 'made-made climate change' hoax showed up.

  • @timcarswell9559
    @timcarswell9559 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Very enlightening discussion. Huge amount of common sense.

  • @reginaldgraves1684
    @reginaldgraves1684 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Few people deny that the climate is changing, it has always been happening, we deny Climate Change.

  • @pompeymarineman8087
    @pompeymarineman8087 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    ISG nothing more than mafioso

  • @terrischiro8093
    @terrischiro8093 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    The other ships weathered the event. Down bursts, tornados, water spouts do happen. Always have.

  • @chriswilcox7828
    @chriswilcox7828 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I'm after a boat and I want to sail but I am available for crew if I can learn from anyone please let me know

  • @inagaddadavida7023
    @inagaddadavida7023 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Dick, your knowledge of safely traveling "Around" the world would make quite a great book. It would probably save some lives. If more engineers bought into your philosophy, the price to produce Kraken type boats would level out. Economy of Scale would help greatly. Thank you for what you have already done so far.

  • @leilayoung3830
    @leilayoung3830 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Amazing that the Kraken designer after such sensible observations thinks humans are responsible for 'climate change' or that they can alter the outcome of weather based on solar activity.

  • @bwtawny
    @bwtawny 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Poor design if heel over in the 40's sinks the boat. But I agree wrong place, time, boat. Yacht company is being a jerk and deserves to lose sales.

  • @philipditchfield696
    @philipditchfield696 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Haarp!!!! wake up everybody... for Gods sake WAKE UP!!!

  • @carlwilliams6977
    @carlwilliams6977 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    This interview clearly demonstrates why the builder has been so defensive, and legally aggressive. If this theory proves accurate, it could be the end of them! Form over function is no way to design an ocean going yacht!

  • @jimj2683
    @jimj2683 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    The safest boat would have the hull filled with foam so it cannot sink. It would probably have to be made from carbon fiber to be light enough to require only a small amount of foam (to not take up all the interior volume).

  • @kalleebner
    @kalleebner 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Thank you ! Well explained.

  • @rondecambio7375
    @rondecambio7375 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    The divers said the so called garage door was left open,which is practically on the water line,once water enters there it goes directly to the engine room.People on board said there was also a party on board the night before ,a party which the crew took part in.Is it possible they weren't up to snuff?Many captains who sailed this type of yacht,even its sister ship ,which sailed in the Antartic, attested to its sea worthyness.I find this discussion a typical case of English Italian bashing.Maybe to sell more of the gentleman's own yachts.

  • @offshoretomorrow3346
    @offshoretomorrow3346 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Those stairwells are INSANE...

  • @nearlynativenursery8638
    @nearlynativenursery8638 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    The absolute truth spoken here and I mean evolution damn truth. Jim Rodgers

  • @Sean006
    @Sean006 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Common sense analysis from someone with vast experience. 👍 I expect 90% plus of what was hypothesised turns out to be correct. As always with accidents or disasters there may have been ways to avoid them but multiple poor decisions and probably bad luck combined on the day.....those at fault need to be held to account and lessons learned.

  • @faircompetition1203
    @faircompetition1203 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    A sailboat that can not survive a 90 deg knockdown without in flooding demonstrates a design flaw in my opinion . It began in flooding at 45 deg and only could self right to about 73 deg . That is probably fine in a power boat but not a sailboat . On top there would be big windows and doors for views and esthetics over seaworthiness . Add in large open areas inside . All contributing to it sinking fast . All the water flooding in also immediately reduces the righting angle making it even worse . As to his point about vanishing stability , my lifting keel sailboat is self saving down to 140 deg - that is with the keel up .

  • @artbargestudio
    @artbargestudio 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Very Italian! Blame the Brits! 🤣 Thanks for an informative interview without speculation. Helicopter to get a newspaper! Good one! 🤣👌

  • @rolandscales9380
    @rolandscales9380 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    If a downburst took out a 20-footer and I was killed by the weather event, the coroner would have said, "Oh dear. How sad. Never mind." An oligarch dies, and the authorities insist that somebody must be guilty.

  • @myfishisnothappy1595
    @myfishisnothappy1595 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Climate change... these gentlemans should know about Sun cycles. We are in a Solar maximum, which cycles in about 11 years. This causes massive storms, and electrical phenomena. Then , you have the Etna region to know a little, where in between of the Eolian island and the northern cost of Sicily, it's not super rare for Vulcanic tremors, some eruptions, and also small Tsunamis... I have seen 15-20 mt yachts catapulted 20 mt high up on the roof of houses in the 80s in Vulcano island...whilst all local sailors safely went the other side of the island... the Sea is not your friend... And the Sun much less with booze!

  • @myfishisnothappy1595
    @myfishisnothappy1595 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Yes it was the case. Tender hatches were left open. Still. The main saloon niagara falls is quite compelling. But if that was the case, was it enough to compromise the buoyancy of the vessel completely? When the blackout occured, that meant the engine room had flooded. Under storm warnings, protocols are no joke. Anyway. I'd would not step on A Perini for a million pounds. No pictures of the submerged vessel open hatches has been released. They are in the hand of the Italian judges. However, leaks from the professional divers team has reported this. And this leaves little to imagination. Tender hatch was left open. Palermo shipwreck: tender hatches open, ‘the mobile keel was partially raised’. The mobile centreboard of the Bayesian sailing ship was partially raised at the time of the shipwreck. Four metres instead of the seven and a half metres. This is what emerges from initial inspections of the hull by divers, the fire brigade and the Coast Guard. At the time of the storm, in all probability, the boat would have sunk more easily with the drift up. In addition, according to ship insurance brokers, it appears that at least one of the ship's hatches had been left open. According to the brokers' reconstruction, the guests would have returned on board late, “they had partially raised the drift”. But it appears that ‘some of the hatches remained open, “the ones they normally use for tenders”. ‘When that gust of wind came, although dry of sail the boat tilted fearfully - is the hypothesis - it made a flood of water from the leeward hatch and sank within minutes. The missing people are probably still trapped in their cabins'. Source: La Nazione newspaper

  • @michaellewis876
    @michaellewis876 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Hi All This So Sad Saga Continues. 1) Let's all Remember it was a Freak Storm Event • A Crazy & wild micro burst at Night. 2) All Bosts have limitations & the wrong place at the wrong time is Never going to end well. 3) It's hard to blame the Captian & Crew for All bad the weather situations like this at A previously very calm anchor. 3) Ok we can all suggest and try to bring in new Draconian Robot measures - If bad weather is mentioned Everyone has ti come on up to top Deck over a Nominated wind speed In case of a freak weather event. say 15 or 20 knots of wind. Called - Eg The Bayesian Event Speed. 4) Yes - So Now it's becoming more obvious - there may be a lot of Design Flaws in new Boat building. Trying to hard on boat features With little Oversight checks & balances Designing to hard for the Future Designing for Comfort Designs for the SuperRich. 5) Owners can be & are very Demanding & everyone wants tips & Bonuses If you give them a simple choice or options like Raising the Keel Especially in Calm waters & Maybe due to additional Noise when lowered. They'll have it up. 6) Option to have the tallest mast in the World Ah a trend setter 7) Too much of forfilling the Money Orientations Now dictates the Design & yes let's put in some minor & strict offsetting procedures to follow. So blame goes elsewhere in bad events. 8) So Now the Captian has to be a boat / yatch Engineer to adjust & correct for all the bad design flaws. 9) Is it not the Insurance Industry a major Factor Driving crazy Lawsuits. always trying to find some else to lay the blame on The other side To escape payng when the worse & Tragic circumstances all come together.

  • @petec9686
    @petec9686 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    “ 24:04 The sea’s the gov’nuh.” This is rule number one.

  • @petec9686
    @petec9686 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    “ 24:04 The sea’s the gov’nuh.” This is rule number one.

  • @pippahgetchell7757
    @pippahgetchell7757 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Excellent discussion. Thanks, gentlemen.

  • @valefur72
    @valefur72 6 วันที่ผ่านมา

    As an Italian, I am ashamed of the CEO's words. The seabed is full of vessels defined as unsinkable. In addition to this, he has disrespected the victims. In addition to this, it must be said that the Baylesian was built and refitted when Perini Navi was not even part of his industrial group, so I think that this defence is also stupid... Truly a disgusting person. That said, 45 degrees of flooding angle is quite common on that big sailing yachts. Pretending that a yacht of this size has the same angles of a little sailing boat is simply impossible. They are built thinking that an event capable of capsizing them is highly improbable, especially in the Mediterranean. Too big to fall... Perhaps, the Mediterranean of today is not the same as it was twenty years ago...