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Halving these also made my cam sound less lopey and slightly better take off (M6 trans) Doubling them made it lope hard and was kinda a slug taking off. weird

Yes you are absolutely correct. Starting the combustion process later (retarding the ignition) causes fuel to continue burning as the exhaust valve opens. The exposure to open flame transfers heat to the exhaust valve and exhaust headers much better than hot gasses created in the cylinder during a 'normal' combustion process. Heat is energy and the goal of the heat engine is to harness that heat as kinetic energy. Advancing timing to the correct spot will do this. Retarding ignition causes that heat to get absorbed elsewhere.

@rickriede2166 at 8:33 I'm taking about excess heat/pressure in the cylinder causing knock/detonation. The only option is to back off timing. There is an acceptable range of timing that's not going to really increase EGT.

Dang man that sounds like quite a process you have! Might be worth it at some point to rent some dyno time and verify and fine tune it.

@@SilverSurfer77 Yes I intend to do that...........if I can find a shop that will rent out dyno time so I can do the tuning myself.........this is practically non-existent in my neck of the woods thus why I'm doing this w\ my crude methods......... I know that the ECU OS calc's TQ based off airmass using the MBT spark advance\spark advance correction tables which isn't the same as dyno calc TQ using the weighted roller w\ eddy brake setting a resistance factor then measuring the load against a strain gauge from the angular velocity of the roller created by the engine TQ in a 1-to-1 trans gear ratio in steady state to then calc HP (follows James Watt's original TQ equation to then calc HP). So I also use DynoSim 6 software (simulates an engine dyno) to back check the modeling to flesh all this out as best I can do to try to check off all the boxes I can w\o being on a chassis dyno.

@@dalelockett2619 Yeah I have the same problem here. Shops don't want to rent out dyno time and they are only interesting in you paying them to tune the car on the dyno. I had one shop tell me since they didn't do the build they don't even want my business. I suppose that is a symptom of having too many customers (good for them I guess). Anywhoo I am about ready to buy a tandem axle trailer, flip it upside down, and use that the basis for a home made dyno.

LOL made my day!

@@SilverSurfer77 good shit man! lol I want to get into tuning really bad but A I don’t have the device and 2nd I’m to scurd so yeah I still like learning about it tho

@CamelGarage even bull riders are scared of getting on a raging bull. They have respect for the beast. If they don't... then something is wrong with them! Anyway, you should approach this with a heavy dose of respect. There are plenty of easy things to mess around with while learning and there are tons of tuning schools and courses to purchase (well worth it). And finally the HPTuners forum is a great place to ask questions and learn from the real pros! Good luck on your quest!

Well look at it this way. Most people go to the grocery story and are happy to buy over the counter tomatoes, they may be cheap ones, or expensive organic tomatoes. But then there are fanatics who think over the counter tomatoes are terrible and have to grow their own in their own garden. Both groups of people are happy with the result. One group gets cheap tomatoes right now, and they think the home growers are crazy due to all the time, labor, and expense of growing tomatoes. The home growers have a different set of goals. It is the same thing with tunes IMHO. How picky are you, and are you willing to do the work and learning and trial and error to make it perfect? Shops and professional tuners just do not have that kind of time. Most tuning sessions of 2-4 hours are really only long enough to cover the basics. But I agree with you, there are a lot of sloppy professional tunes out there. I wonder how many "big time famous shops" out there are really just a guy on Facebook saying "I can help, check your DM" LOL

@@SilverSurfer77 Spot on analogy and I agree about the time constraint limiting how thorough they can be. If I was the professional I would find it difficult to offer both a quick/lazy tune and a "perfect" tune for different prices.

You are welcome!

You are welcome!

The "rectangle port heads kill power down low" myth has been debunked numerous times.

Thank you for the kind words and support! Sounds like you have an awesome job, i am totally jealous! I think you should make a video, I would love to hear the tales from the dyno cell! Any chance you can elaborate on the comment you made, " there are a variety of reasons each cell in a timing table isnt just parked at MBT"? Also, important question, are you seeing 12-15º ATDC peak cylinder pressure to make best torque with you modern transducers?

@@SilverSurfer77 So a few reasons timing might not be set at MBT in every cell in the table would be knock margin, smoothing or blending for drivability purposes, and the effect timing has on NOX emissions. Now of course all of this varies greatly depending on application. An oem manufacturer is going to have a significantly different objective when creating a calibration for a mass produced engine with a warranty that has to be emissions compliant, than say an enthusiast working with one engine. And of course the differences between a daily driver versus a weekend cruiser versus a race car all drive different needs. And ultimately, there is no absolute way things have to be done. A lot of it is personal preference at the end of the day to be honest, from an enthusiast standpoint. 12-15° ATDC is pretty accurate for MBT. However, much more emphasis is placed on what crank degree a percentage of mass fraction burned is occurring at. 50% MFB is one of the most common metrics, but many look at what crank angle 10% 50% and 90% MFB occurs at as well. Something many people dont realize when they pull a ton of timing all the time for traction control, launch control, or just plain old power reduction, is that their EGT's go through the roof and the exhaust valves are hating life! I'd maybe consider making a video, but honestly it would be so generic I dont know that it would be worth it. Unfortunately, due to confidentiality for work, I wouldnt be able to delve in to much of anything specific.

@@ericmiller4285 great info! Thank you for replying. I am curious if you are able to share the name of the company you work for? if not, that is OK, I don't want you to get in trouble! I have subscribed to you just in case one day you do decide to make a video!

Oh absolutely! I know RTT was a thing on the Gen3 stuff, I am not sure if it is technically possible on the Gne4 or not. But I would LOVE to have RTT capabilities! The possibilities of doing this for EOIT testing and spark timing would be an absolute game changer!

@@SilverSurfer77I ran it by the powers that he at HOT and they said absolutely not will they be doing a RTT for the gen 4. Sucks.

@@fasnuf that is too bad.

Not a dumb question at all! The answer is YES you can. In fact, I have switched over from the OEM VVE OS to the HPT 2Bar SD OS and I use this tool. While you don't need to worry about the computer calculating the coefficients, you essentially are doing that manually when you copy/paste special and then smooth and blend by hand or by using the smoothing tool in the HPT editor. So you can use this tool to ensure after all the smoothing you did, that you didn't go too far or too little.

Hmm I am not sure...everything work ok on my end. There is usually some delay when changing the value as the code has a lot of data manipulation, but nothing more than a second or so (at least on my laptop). Are you typing in the number or using the up/down arrows? I would definitely type in a number (never use the arrows). What happens if you put in 25 Hz before you paste in your first MAF table?

I am glad your trunnions are working out for you. I am curious how well they fit in the rocker stands. Are the loose and wobbly like mine here in the video?

@SilverSurfer77 no mine actually fit like factory, I kinda looked at them as basically a factory fit with snap rings. To be clear I think the che is a great piece too. I just wasn't sure if they would have the longevity of a roller bearing with big spring pressures. Sounds like we've got opposite experiences lol

@@sikrandall83 when did you guy your kit? Do you still have the part number? I got mine in June 2015 PN 13702-KIT. Maybe they fixed some issues since then?

@SilverSurfer77 oh shoot man, it's about 5 or 6 years old too. I'd have to look and see, but I honestly have no idea what the part number was now

I believe there are a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to EOIT. I believe a lot of what I said and claimed in this video are also incorrect. I am doing a lot of studying with an oscilloscope to test. The initial results are shocking to me. I do plan to make another video when I have some more testing done. I did post this today on the forum. Stay tuned for more details in the coming weeks! forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?111145-Make-Up-Mode-you-wiley-devil-you&p=793842&viewfull=1#post793842

@@SilverSurfer77 Looking forward to your discoveries! What you're saying in that thread about makeup is more along the lines of what I have came up with. Makeup is more for low RPM (less than idle, think a stall) when the controller decides it needed more fuel in the first/main pulse. It then can use the makeup to reach desired fuel mass as long as its; A) in the same injection window and B) before the boundary angle has been reached.

Glad you are finding the channel helpful! I have never worked on a TIAP before...but there is at least one patent talking about using it to detect a dirty/clogged air filter lol patents.google.com/patent/US7509845B2/en I don't have any experience with it though.

@@SilverSurfer77 Thanks for the answer! Just more confirmation it's not needed haha

This is exactly why I use the Dynamic Air channel (grams/sec) and multiply it by the fuel trim (%) to calculate the correct airflow into the engine. There is room for error, however, it eliminates a lot of other sources of error including user calibration of MAF and VVE, ECM modeling for ambient temperature, humidity, and pressure, injector characterization, as well as other sources of engine wear and vacuum leaks etc. This is also the method I use to tune the MAF and VVE itself (as demo'd here th-cam.com/video/xRZaTblSQ_0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=hoWORg40lMFSHzC2).

@@SilverSurfer77 Hey thanks, that will be useful. Are you using Norrin Radd's power cosmic in tunning or just chem engineering? 😁

@@davidwickboldt712 I have no idea what you just said, so I am going with "no" lol

@@SilverSurfer77 <-- that made me think you were a comic fan. Norrin Radd is the Silver Surfer who has cosmic powers.

@@davidwickboldt712 oh hahaha actually I never was into comics! SilverSurfer was just a name I used on the forums back in the day because all other user names were taken. So after the first forum, I decided to keep using it on the others so I didn't have to remember it (this was before browsers would remember your user/pass). The ball kept rolling into 2006 or whenever I created my youtube account....which I never thought I would start making videos. In hindsight I should have picked a different handle. Oh well!

How much timing is a ton of timing? If you have a 4000 stall then you probably have a really big cam, right? Torque Management [TCM] 560x table play into this with [ECM] 12704. However, the Minimum Final Spark [ECM] 12701 table also factors in. At a min set your torque ramp to immediate so it recovers faster. Also, shift time does play into this as well. This entire playlist covers all these topics. Watch it all and let me know if you still have any questions... th-cam.com/play/PLRh-HgbRQTHB-3UfFMRVeoqDl2MvjEnZy.html

I had put on about 12k miles on the first set. I would have kept running them except I did go to an aftermarket cylinder head (Liberty casting which is 1" taller and uses custom rocker stands). I probably would have been fine to keep using my original set, but I decided to get a new set due to any potential changes in geometry. I have no issues or complaints with the CHE kit. They are the gold standard if you ask me.

@@SilverSurfer77 As far as the rocker stands, what was the difference with those compared to the stock ones? I’m just really nervous about going through with the build and something happening with the stands or rockers themselves and something failing on me then ruining the engine. Also thanks for the response!

@@rolandcarrasco2717 the blue ones in the video were CNC billet from Livernois motor sports. Livernois claims OEM rocker trunnion bearings fail due to the flimsy cast OEM rocker stands. Even though I went with the CHE trunnions I wanted extra valve train stability with these stands. They also have an option to get with them ARP bolts which I did (although in hindsight I should have just purchased ARP rocker studs). My current heads are the FED M311's which have a different bolt hole spacing which requires a different rocker stand. You can see them here: th-cam.com/video/eeeyVY2-g70/w-d-xo.htmlsi=WQVYhgsSowF66BJ6&t=280 Don't be nervous. I don't know the specifics of your build, but you should be fine with just going the CHE route. You might want to take a look at the BTR shaft mount system though. Moderately priced and has the advantage that several rockers are tied together with a common shaft that is anchored with several bolts, so that increases stability over a single bolt per rocker. The downside IMHO is that it uses the needle bearings and that makes me nervous. Maybe I am just overly nervous though after my experience with Comp bearings.

@@SilverSurfer77 I’ll look into the Livernois with the studs. Is going with studs vs bolts preferred or is it a personal preference thing? Going with the 224r cam. Not really focused on heads right now just because I wanna get it built and done already but now I know I can check out your build to give me a good idea how those heads run and what I’ll need to do for them.

@@rolandcarrasco2717 I think it really comes down to how fast you are going to spin the motor. More RPM's = Need for Valve train control. My motto is "aint no kill like overkill" and considering the valve train is the weak point of the LS motors, it makes sense to beef up this part of the motor. I am guessing with a 224 cam you are not going to spin very high...and CHE bushings with OEM rocker stands and bolts are going to be fine. I have a 233 cam and shift at 6900-7000 rpm at WOT. You can always add the CNC stands and ARP hardware later, it is not hard to upgrade after the motor is built.

With a friends junkyard iron block 5.3, we put a set of MAST cylinder heads on that sucka, Brian Tooley BTR cast intake, Holley EFI, TRUE NORTH TURBOS 102/98 Methanol, Reid case 400, 4 link 92 fox hatch back, car fit all steel all glass rules. Car weighed about 2950-3000 pounds fully setup, we made that sucker run a 4.58 @ 161 MPH on 40 pounds. Of course we have our guys at TKM drop top fuel receiver grooves into the block, as the heads hold the hoops. Those mast cylinder heads had absolutely no problem spooling that BEHEMOTH OF A TURBO. Takes 5.5 seconds to hit the 3 step ready to go. I do not remember the exact model, but they were one of their nicest set of cast heads. Tbh they look billet how nice they are. Best thing you can ever do for a LS. Those big valves assist greatly in your fight to finding RPMZ believe it or not, especially in a NA/NOS application. Our secret to spooling that turbo wasn’t just the heads. As you know you can have the best heads known to man, but without the right camshaft, your worst off than you where before. We ran a damn SUMMIT RACING STAGE 2 BLOWER CAM😎😎💪🏻

Thanks for watching! I use an all inclusive set of filters to remove all transient conditions, I have a link to the filters in my google drive (this video description has the link): th-cam.com/video/xRZaTblSQ_0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=qRgF7DZN4nHWKhRn

@@SilverSurfer77 thanks keep up the good work 👍🏽

I agree this would be nice. But I think in the real world, most people are going to upgrade other areas first on a stock LS3, like CAI and headers which offer more bang for the buck. The rod mod is just one of those last ditch effort for any remaining airflow.

@SilverSurfer77 That's true!!!! I am running BTR Ls3 Stage 2 V2 .619/.617 113 Lsa cam. So mine will not be stock either lol. Good information tho thank you. Your channel just popped up on my feed. I'm glad it did. You have alot of great info. I'm just doing videos for my grandkids to maybe learn from and they are having alot of fun with it. If they can't be here with me wrenching, they watch the videos to stay up with the progress of the swap. I am a long ways from worrying about the intake just yet. I still need to the heads and then I can finish the engine. I just have the heads and a truck intake on so I can work the harness. My first swap but not my first engine lol.

You have impeccable taste, sir!

Yes LSA's covers will bolt right onto LS3 heads no problems.

It started as a GMPP 525 HP crate motor with the included E67 ECM. One issue with that ECM is that it hard codes the idle at 950 RPM and it cannot be changed. He did acquire another E67 and flashed with a CTS-V OS and that allowed me to set idle speed as expected. He did swap it back to the GMPP ECM though...I can't remember why. Flyin' Miata developed the swap kit and they produced 12 cars and then stopped (cruel EPA). They agreed to give Lawrence the full rights to continue on using their supplied parts. However, in talking with him, there are MANY different suppliers to pull this off and some will only commit to working in large batches. One key element here is that FM developed a CAN Bus translator that allows the GM ECM to communicate with the Mazda CAN and they can send data back and forth, so it is really full integration. It is really slick! So all the older Miata LS1 swaps aren't really in the same ball park with this level of sophistication and integration.

can bus translater sounds like what we all need these days doing engine swaps, or going stand alone and trying to keep the car happy. even simple requests would be nice. he's onto a gold mine if he can make use of that. I'm guessing he's using the factory gm nnp part of the e67? but requesting it thru the Miata can bus for the wipers. if so, that's very cool. I very much like the nnp on my c6 and wish it was an option to add to all my cars.

that would be so cool! I would love to have a performance shop with a dyno and a big air conditioner! LOL

@SilverSurfer77 My tuning business all started as a joke including the name. A couple years of tuning for buddies and their buddies i was booked up working a full time job. I quit that job last year got a second mortgage out for a mustang md500se-xl. So far i have enough to make a almost comfortable living. Come up with a shop logo and have some decals made. I had a name(as a joke) from the beginning and had some decals made, here i am now.

@04silverado6.0 ok so I gotta know what is the joke business name? !

Reynolds Creek Performance

@@04silverado6.0 Ah yes...I am following your page on Facebook!

I should have...but at least the video thumbnail helps a little bit. This video was pretty old, well before I knew how to edit simple stuff in, like a simple photo.

THANK YOU!!! I truly appreciate your support of the channel!

My man! I knew you would! LOL

I would be curious how this offset business works...does it offset properly for different RPM's? Idle would have the longest offset, high rpm would have the least. I have never used EFILive.

@@SilverSurfer77 You are missing out. you can offset however you see fit. you can create your own formula for how much to offset. I have various depending on logging speed also.

@@highlanderc man I think you need to make some EFILive vidoes! Maybe I will have to switch teams LOL

I have exported to CSV many times...but man what a chore. I agree HPT needs to modernize. Maybe once they get Global B settled they can focus on this...oh wait...once they get the Core ECU settled...err...it will never happen.

Thank you for the kind words! I'll mull your offer over, I appreciate it!

If you accept it you will brake our brain 🧠 whit too much information. That's a fact

Thanks for watching!

Yes this is happening since you are boosted and the default VVE Editor in HPT is only for N/A 1 bar setups. Click the kpa axis and you can select a default for 2 bar. This will reveal all the hidden zones and away you go! Note you can also edit the RPM axis too. Also both of these axis' are completely editable to whatever values you want. HPT just provides a few default starting points depending on 1,2,3 bar and shift points. Good luck.

@SilverSurfer77 Awesome it worked!!!! I could copy the axis and paste in your tool. I only tried the Pressure Axis and did not do the RPM. I watched your videos to create the fX math for the MAF and VVE parameters. Next question, I looked in your Google drive for the filters for the Histo Tables. Are they located in the folder?

@@baybiboy1 glad it is working. I updated the link (check the description for the new one), but the old link just went to parent folder. Either way should all be set now.

Maybe i should mention the build of the car. V2: Heads, Cam, Kong X, DDP intake, Headers, ID 1050, upgraded Dual Fuel pumps, Flex Sensor. Tuning the car has been a challenge, but your videos has gotten me up and running. Got the link with the (fX) math filters. I had those math filters by watching and pausing your videos😊. The filters I was looking for was the ones you have for the Histogram tables that filter the TRQ management you mentioned if you have those? If I don't need them, I will not use them. By the way I donated, maybe you can buy a coffee or beer lol! Cheers

@@baybiboy1 oh man you did it the hard way! Check the video description for the google drive link. There is a file in there called "Formulas and Math for Tuning with Dynamic Air.txt" and it has the filters you can copy and paste! Either way sounds like a sick build! Glad you found my videos helpful! Definitely gonna grab a beer this Father's Day weekend! Thanks again!