Appreciate you shouting the appalling charging situation. For me I cannot own a Tesla, not because of the Elon, I really couldn't care. I just do not like the ergonomics of Tesla cars, the shape and the lack of buttons and controls. That's just me and the way my brain works and what i like and I know the technology is beyond any other car maker etc.. So no matter how much you bang on how easy they are, how cheap and effortless the charging is I'm afraid i cannot live with one.. Just be thankful I drive an EV, have been since 2019 and would never go back to ICE.
@@michaeldawson6309 Agreed. It would be great if I can gain a few extra miles while I shop, so anything between 3Kw -7Kw would do nicely. There are still loads of Zoë models out there that can do 11Kw, so to be able to charge at that speed would be great for them too.
@@stephenbagwell8275 Interesting enough, 22kW AC did not catch on much. Most cars can do just 11kW. Not sure how much more would the onboard charger cost to be 22kW rated. On the other hand, most homes won't have that much power, anyway (even on 3 phase it's 32 Amps and that's usually more than the whole household connection).
Dave, stop harping on with your "get a Tesla mantra" yes the superchargers are great VFM but not everyone can afford to buy a Tesla let alone to be able to afford to insure a car in insurance group 50. This talk about 50kW chargers being rubbish is out of line too as most people buying a reasonable priced used EV will probably get one with a maximum charging speed of 50kW or less, my current cars max charging speed is at most 46kW the car I'm shortly replacing it with maxes out at 50kW, I don't honestly understand the obsession with faster and faster rapid charging speeds, is life so short that you can't manage to wait 30-40 minutes to recharge your EV, charging for 15 minutes is hardly enough time for a toilet break, a sandwich and a coffee, chill out don't be in such a hurry.
Shopping centres need low priced 7-11kWh charging as many people will spend 3 to 4 hours here. Then a few 100+kWh rapid chargers for those that want to call in grab a drink and go. Personally I think soemwhere around 50 EV charge points would be a good start!
Agreed. Although I would skew it more towards a huge number of 7kW chargers. 7kW chargers are absolutely perfect in this scenario because (a) they are cheap to install and operate by the shopping centre itself, and (b) if I can have a cheap charge that adds a few miles to my battery at a specific centre, I would rather shop there than a centre without chargers. Another added benefit is that all relatively modern EVs can use 7kW chargers with their own cables, so the CCS v. Chademo thing doesn't come into play. In my opinion splash-and-dash doesn't really fit the shopping centre model all that well, although that of course depends on whether there are ultra-rapid chargers in the immediate area or not. In this particular case Dave said that there are ultra-rapids close by, so a bazillion cheap 7kW chargers would be more useful to the community.
Dave, you do some good content, and I have learned a lot from your video's. But of late you are seeming to be a Tesla fan boy, you may want to reflect on that.
I feel these location only need a 11Kw charger maximum (at a cheap rate!), the chances are, people are out shopping or watching a film and not in a rush. If they're in a rush, go to a fast charger location. I'd like to see a row of 20+ charging points at 11Kw, that would be nice, but unlikely to happen at the moment (one day it will) as likely to be ICED! Putting super fast DC chargers in these locations will result in stress, worrying about getting charged by the minute as you run out of the cinema to move your car, so 4 hours max should be sufficient before being charged (even if 100% full).
Dave these are destination chargers not transit chargers, whilst there should indeed be more of them at this site they don't need to be rapid/ultra-rapid for the intended use. A mix of 7/22/43kW AC and 50kW DC will suite most cars and most needs at a retail site. A fairer Tesla Network comparison would be Tesla Destination charger sites that similarly vary from 7kW to 22kW AC. If the site had higher power chargers one would need to return to the car before finishing charging to move the car to a non-charging parking space. Whereas the indended use is a parking space, sometime paid, with an additional function as a EV charger. The issue is there should be more of them at the site rather than the power rating.
Absolutely, you need a charger that adds a significant amount of charge during the course of your visit. You don't want to worry about blocking a charger after an hours charging if you're spending the afternoon shopping and having a meal.
@@charlesflouvat1829 - The UK is mainly contactless these days. Even many car park payment machines don't accept cash, they're pay by card or by phone.
Also you don't really need destination chargers so much any more with the greater range of cars. It was more if a thing when you hardly had enough charge to get to the shopping centre (in this case) and back home and even an extra 30 miles while you shopped was very helpful. My guess is that's why they're empty - most people can charge more cheaply at home and will use only relatively small percentage of the battery on the round trip. People who can't charge at home would also appreciate the chance to top up, but it doesn't need to be very fast if the expectation is that you'll spend an hour or two at the location and you're not doing a full charge. Even 50 kW will charge most EVs 20%-80% in 20 minutes to an hour if you really wanted to, but this is probably not a common use case at this location. Give us more cheap slower chargers at these locations - less expensive to install should equal lower charging costs, perhaps additionally subsidised by the shopping centre to attract customers.
I think 50kW is fine for a shopping centre. Realistically most people visiting a shopping centre are going to be there at least an hour or two. So as long as a car charges in under an hour it's not a problem. You don't need 200kW in that situation. Still, the age of chargers can become a problem, as 4 year old chargers often require an app that nobody wants, or some RFID card that nobody has. 11kW chargers on the other hand, and especially non-tethered ones, need to be binned. They're absolutely not fit for purpose. My own issue is locations that ONLY have Tesla chargers (that in reality are not compatible with some ccs cars even when they say they are open to 'all' - and worse, shopping centres with Tesla chargers that AREN'T open to all.)
No. 50Kw is way to fast. My BMW i3 would be full from empty in less than 1 hour at 50Kw. Most people will arrive here at maybe 50% or more state of charge and for me that means less than 30mins on a 50Kw charger. 11Kw is sensible at a shopping mall.
@@michaeldawson6309Absolutely, often 7kw is fast enough. My Dacia wouid be pretty much fully charged after a couple of hours on 7kw if I arrived with more than 20%. I'd have to think about moving it. Even it's 30kw DC maximum is too fast.
@@michaeldawson6309 We need a mix of all. 7-11kW, 50kW, and fast. Make them all easy to use and people will pick the one that best fits their use case on that particular day.
@@mbak7801 That is just silly, 1 hour max on a 7kW charger makes it useless, and would also ruin my shopping experience. In a situation like that I would rather not charge, or go somewhere else where I can get a meaningful charge without the silly time limitation. Bah, humbug! 😛
50kW is more than enough for a shopping centre since you aren't going to want to interrupt your shopping. In fact 7kW is the ideal here, there just needs to be more of them.
7-11Kw chargers are perfect for these areas. I don't want to run to the shop then run back before I have finished my purchase because it is charged already.
I agree, or even better, have lots of rapid ones so it doesn't matter if the car has finished but you're still in Nandos because there are plenty of other bays for other drivers. That way, you can have a quick charge if you need to dash, or have a long charge and not feel guilty. Having said that, I suppose the 11kw ones are much cheaper.
Four years of driving an i3. During that time, 63% miles travelled from ‘home’ with 75% of charging sessions done there. Rapid (50kW) charging on ‘trips’ is done at motorway services, coffee/farm shops, etc. Fast charging on ‘trips’ is overnight near accommodation or in public car parks near beach/walks/places of interest. I would not dream of charging at Be.EV Trafford Centre or any CPO at Gateshead retail etc. Why would anyone buy from a retail park if they can charge at home for 27p or less? The opposite side of that coin is marketing their site. On a trip, I will stop at Gretna Village retail or Trafford Centre because Tesla is 43p/53p, and then the retailers will benefit from my purchases. If a retail park gave me fast charging (7kW) at (say) their cost price of 15p, my current Amazon purchases would be there instead, and the food outlets would get my custom as a bonus.
This was the same problem at the Large Brent Cross retail park in London until last year where brand new 22 chargers were installed fantastic for shopping or a visit to the cinema, all retail parks should be invested in charing bays. 👍
I think what's happening now is that charging companies are realising that EV sales have stalled and manufacturers are wobbling so they are slowing down in their commitment to the charger infrastructure.
We still have only a single, (very unreliable) BP Polar 50KW charger in our entire district; there are multiple 7 KW chargers in every council carpark, but last time I looked, they wanted 84p per KWh for them, so hardly anyone uses them (MHDC). The next nearest Rapid charger is another single BP Polar 50KW of similar vintage - nearly 5 miles out of town, at a luxury hotel. These two chargers make that one in your video look brand new; and you are correct, they can only handle one port at a time. The one in town regularly decides it is only going to deliver 8-10KW, yet always behaves impeccably when the BPP engineer turns up [rolls eyes].
Hi Dave. Great content as usual. If you want to find pitiful EV charging you should try Telford Shopping Centre. Telford is quite a large town in Shropshire. It has a massive shopping centre which boasts 4000 parking spaces, with a grand total of zero chargers. There used to be 4 BP Pulse 7kw chargers on a near site at Asda. They were free when they worked, which was very rare. They are now switched off because Adsa don't want to pick up the tab.
Glad you’re going to put a bit more focus on non-Tesla EV charging infrastructure, not everyone wants a Tesla and with more and more EV choice available this content is needed. Thanks Dave
The Metro Centre in Gateshead is a joy to visit for EV users with 100+ chargers in and around the centre. The Tesla network on the other hand is absolutely dire in the North East with only 8 old V2 chargers at Washington which are always busy.
I have just bought an EV and found the charging network in France excellent on motorways, Italy is not as good on motorways but other chargers are available nearby motorways there.Uk seemed expensive but need to research my local area of Cambridgeshire when i return to Uk.
Why install more chargers, if only 1 out of 6 is being used while the parking lot is crowded? I used to charge my BMW with 22kW while shopping in similar venues, but now that we charge at home, why bother pay 45p/kW if it is cheaper (and also 22kW) at home? But I'm Swiss and don't know how expensive public charging in GB is...
It depends how far you’ve driven and whether you started with a full battery. I think charging should be everywhere so there’s no panic trying to find one. UK DC charging is around 1€ per kWh. Rarely find anything less than 0.5€
Hi Dave, I wonder how far people actually travel to get to any out of town shopping centre? My nearest big one is Swindon 30 miles from where I live I would never need to charge to get there and back. Having a Kia E-Niro with great range in 16 months I’ve only used public charging 4 times as it is crazy expensive. If I was somewhere like that I think 7Kw chargers would be fine as previously mentioned I wouldn’t want to rush back to the car to unplug. We need the right speed chargers in the right places. 7Kw is no good at a supermarket when you probably won’t be there an hour. So glad you’re pointing all these problems out. fyi. Reading services M4 Westbound are putting a lot more Gridserve chargers in. I couldn’t get a Three mobile signal so couldn’t use the app and had to pay full price.
I see a pattern in the UK, instead of putting chargers where they might just be helpful, the tactic is to put them where you also have to pay to park. Rip off Britain strikes again!
Not realy, for destination chargers it more of a parking bay where one can happen to charge. This allows one to charge and return to the car one finished shopping, watching a movie or dining out. If this was a charging only bay (with a rapid+ charger) one would need to return mid-activity to move the car to a parking bay (paying for parking in that bay). The issue with this site is a lack of investment to increase the number of chargers.
@@GruffSillyGoat But destination chargers are also something many people want for overnight charging, and having to pay both the charging and then parking on top of that, makes EV ownership more costly.
Most retail parks don't allow overnight parking. Which is why having mixed provision of AC charging with some 50kW DC charging at these sites makes sense.
I'm currently charging at a 50kW Tritium throttled to 40kW and limited to 30min. Yep they still exist. Used to be swamped by Uber but is now a quiet location and a great place for a walk. One of the first "rapid" chargers in the city in which I live. So glad that there has been a slow but steady growth of 125kW dispensers. The world is changing. At last.
I guessed 6, I’m always a glass half full chap😂. How wrong could I be! This is so bad Dave, we all know it. A lot of EV owners from around the country say chargers are everywhere, but the country isn’t evenly covered. About time the government insisted X number of chargers per 100 parking spaces. Increase X every year.
Ealing Broadway shopping centre in West London, 600 capacity during the week and 800 capacity at weekends. Only 6 chargers. It is a covered car park on the top floor and not a single solar panel anywhere. 😖🤨
The other thing about shopping center chargers is that if you put them in a GOOD location, they will get ICEd. If you put them out in the middle of NOWHERE, they WON'T get used (people being people, they don't like to walk). And if you charge FULL RETAIL price for charging, their only value is for people who are really desperate for a charge. On the other hand, if they're FREE they will be abused and monopolized. The idea I like is a LEVEL 1 charger (that would be 110V in North America) that is FREE for say TWO hours (controlled by a timer). Level 1 is basically just an electrical circuit and so pretty cheap and easy to install. Yes, you can come back to the car for another two hours, but count on human nature to keep that rare. It's common to get free parking for 20/60/90/120 minutes at many retail parking lots in busy areas (Toronto Eaton Center used to do that at one time for example), throwing in Level 1 charging for EVs would cost very little when electricity is $0.10 / kwh at wholesale.
The fact that the place even had chargers at all, and that they worked, still puts them ahead of the curve. I also like the way the chargers are sheltered under the parking deck so someone not shopping can plug in the cord without getting wet.
One of my local sites. Bought our first EV a few weeks ago and went with my wife for one of our first charging experiences. Uttter garbage, almost put her off bothering to drive the EV. We had to leave the site and find somewhere else, so Middlebrook retail park lost all our custom for the day because of this joke of a charging area. As Dave says, time for the park Facilities Manager to move on to another job!
Hi Dave agree with you on how many old chargers are in these types of retail parks. The only good thing is new modern Ev’s some have very good range. My current car upwards to 300 miles and the other car I’m considering will cover well over 350 miles. So thankfully I don’t need to use the charging network unless on a long road trips holiday etc then I chose to use the large charging hubs if I need to. As I’m able to charge at home nearly all the time.
I think the idea is that "As A Tesla Driver" (c)(tm) you are basically immune to 99% of all these charging issues due to their charging network being so well balanced and maintained. The rant is more towards the fact that for non-Tesla EV owners the situation is still a bit of a pig's ear.
@janhenkins I get it, but I'm genuinely interested in seeing what's happening with chargers, but I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing how wonderful Tesla is, especially when Musk has clearly poured millions of dollars into enabling the orange Turd to return to the White House.
@@simonpaine2347 I'm 100% in agreement there! I find it very difficult separating Tesla the company from Space Karen. At least we know that Dave is "fighting the good fight". I don't want to talk about the Orange Man, it just makes me physically sick when I do. Saying that it doesn't affect us here in the UK is disingenuous, it's going to be a seriously bumpy ride for the entire civilised world until he gets voted out. Anyway, I'm way off-topic, sorry! Chargers... 😀
When you take into consideration the likely distance car owners travel there and back from Middlebrook, then I suspect all the EV owners would not need a chargers….. they would charge at home instead, just as you yourself do with your Tesla.
Just repeating all the other comments; shopping is a ‘destination’. You need cheaper slower chargers at a location where you are going to be wandering around the shops for a couple of hours. It would be much better to have a massive bank of 22kW chargers than a handful of ultra-rapid chargers. It would be a pain in the arse to have walk from the shops all the way from the shops to unplug and move the car to a non-charging bay to free it up for another driver and avoid idling charges. In the future all car parks like this should be covered in solar panels and have at least 50 or 60 7-22kW charging posts at 35-40p/kWh.
This is the point Dave, we need 7kWh destination chargers at all destinations including lamp posts, you can't keep telling everyone they only do 20 miles a day, but, once in a while need a >150kWh charger. They don't, they need to add 10+ miles on a shop, 10+ miles at the gym and long slow charging at home or their nearest lamp post if they don't have access to home charging. That is convenience. Fast chargers should only be for long journies, but, that's my opinion.
Personally I run a Citroen Ami and a Dacia Spring. If I'm going to a shopping centre all I need is a top up to get me home. My wife seldom let's me escape in less than 3hrs. Plugged into one of those chargers on either vehicle for 3 hours would be fine. That gives me an 80 mile round trip in my Ami ( that's a long way in an Ami in one day) or 240 miles round trip in my Dacia,
We have none in many shopping areas in Wales. Why in Merthyr Tydfil , you dare not own a EV unless you can charge at home. But many homes are unsuitable for a fast charger, or the landlord may not allow it. Best way is biofuels for those with charging problems.
I was considering an ev because most of my charging could be done at home. But after considering the inconvenience of running anything other than a Tesla has put me off. Secondhand model 3s are now affordable but the group 50 insurance isnt.
Before watching. 4 x 7KWh. Maybe 2 x 22KWh. Then 2 x 150KWh. The last two is unlikely. This is Bolton not London or the South East. Zero of course is always possible. Yep. This install is absolutely typical. Three dozen 7->22KWh at a sensible price chargers would be better as long as the price was low. Dave you live in a Tesla charging bubble. The two chargers which were being installed but behind fencing last year locally are now lit up. Except they are also still fenced off and inaccessible. The building which forms part of the install is still being renovated but work seems to have stalled. Mabey mid 2025 will see some progress. There are plenty of places and institutions where charger availability is dire to non existent.
Nice work , network not sorted out just yet clearly . Why don't you do a real costs of your Tesla after 4 years include the deprecation/ lease etc plus free charging and how much it has actually cost , of course it's all going to be better now , early adoptors always pay a premium to be first in the club .
If I was in charge of charging at that site and looked at those empty bays I'd think that the current demand was being met. Are charging rates of >50kW really necessary when the time on site is likely to be at least an hour? It's a bit "chicken & egg" though. If it becomes known that there's unlikely to be a queue for a charger, more customers may be attracted to that site. Ideally, lots more 6-11kW bays at a reasonable price, but as it stands I don't think the place is the best target for a rant, with or without the "the only way is Tesla" content, which is beginning to get tedious.
As a southerner, I’m more likely to drive south rather than north. But we have quite a good supply of electric vehicle charging stations here in Hertfordshire!!
It's not a motorway where you want to "splash and dash", people will be there for a 2, 3, 4, 5 hours as you say in your video. If there's no demand, you can hardly blame them for not bothering with an upgrade.
It's great to see you creating conversations on charging Dave. However, I'm wondering if you got this particular analysis wrong except the rip off pricing. 50 and 11 kw charging seem really appropriate to 'destination parking' where people may plug in and top up quite conveniently for a matter of hours. High speed is less convenient in this context and it would presumably require a huge expensive grid connection to go for several ultra fast chargers anyway. The numbers would not add up. You mention the local Tesla supercharger is open to all EVs so I presume people go there, and it's not a Tesla vs the rest issue. I'm tempted to say this shopping centre has the ideal charging options for a shopping centre and we should campaign for something similar at every shopping centre, supermarket and high street car park as a kind of charging guarantee. Not to be confused with shopping centres near major routes that are appropriate ultra fast charger sites.
I have used this site about 3 year ago when I had a Ioniq 38kw. I can't believe still only have 5 charge points. One of reason's I switched to Tesla mode 3 highland was supercharger network. I never worry about charging just let the car plan my stops. I feel that other EV manufacturers are only selling half a car with a poor high cost charging network. The other thing is V3 V4 charger will charge 3 to 4 Tesla's an hour due to Tesla's battery heating. Greedserve your lucky if you get 1 to 2 hour.
Yeah Middlebrook is awful for charging and has been for some time. Surely they will upgrade once the current agreement ends. Awkward spot too next to the junction. Bolton was up until recently poorly covered by chargers. That is slowly changing with EV on the moves recent installations and other companies in the pipeline.
Tesla are definitely the better package although with Elon at the helm I would definitely think twice! The problem with Bolton Retail is anyone that needs mobility aids like wheelchair or even walkers would struggle with the small bays. I’ve a non-Tesla without home charging and it’s a pest although InstaVolt overnight at 53p makes it palatable
There are more to this particular situation than meets the eye. The unused AC chargers cannot be used by just anybody, you have to be a member of BP´s charging network and pay a subscription. Only then will you be given the RFID token to activate those chargers. In contrast the single DC charger can be activated via the BP phone app, which makes that the only charger that can be used in general. The other 4 is useless.
Used one at West cliff car park whitby. Parked for 2 hours expecting at least 7kw/hr & all I pulled was 3kw/hr nothing more than a top up waste of time really. Much better at Helmsley using the Zest charger where I got 35kw/hr in 50 mins to get me to 80% capacity.
@@GaryMorley-g3k the 4 mer 22kW AC up at St Hilda's are good option, you've just got to watch out for their 9 hour time limit. Still not ideal as the list of parking rules is massive.
@@GaryMorley-g3k was it a 7kW post? An 11kW post? A 7kW post with 2 outlets? An 11kW post will (probably) only give 3.5kW into a single phase charger. And a 7kW 2 outlet post may only give 3.5kW per outlet if both are in use.
The Tesla chargers that are open to none Tesla EVs are incredibly (notably Trafford park) busy and you will be lucky to be able to charge between 10pm -11pm which is when the reduced rate per kw starts. Even when you do find a bay they are slow, at best with a preconditioned battery and 4% remaining I got barely past 70 KW speed and then for only a short period. I have used twice, and on both occasions it took over 35 mins to get to 80%. There are no facilities, no shelters or shops available at that time either. As the price for charging (with membership cards) for none EVs is the same for Tesla owners then as more chargers become available for all EVs then Tesla will lose its advantage.
I've been there a couple of times and no issues and no one else arriving had to queue, however it was earlier this year and more and more EVs are on the road so may be an issue now, truth is, people will seek the cheapest normally, just like petrol and diesel prices.
@ I noted several large delivery fans charging - no drivers in or near the vehicles so perhaps they are charging overnight? I would normally go to Stockport as Trafford is rather busy, but they have the fast chargers out of commission (4 weeks now). Fortunately I’m able to do most of my charging from home so it wasn’t a moan but rather an observation.
Middlebrook 😂 BP will not repair those 11kW units because they would have to make them contactless. They will simply walk away. I’ve contacted BP and they confirmed this is their policy.
I would have thought they could repair the 11kW without having to upgrade the payment option as the Public Charge Point Regulations only talks about "new installations" over 8kW with retrospective for chargers over 50kW.
That sort of multi-outlet site seems exactly the sort of place that should have destination charge points. The only issue is that there should be more, and newer. Those 11kW destination points will need replaced per the law changes anyway as they are >8kW.
The Public Charge Point Regulations only applies to new installations above 8kW. It applies retrospectively to those of 50kW and above so the 11kW wouldn't need to be upgraded to comply.
I've pointed this out to you before, get yourself over to the East Coast, places like Whitby, Scarborough, Filey, Bridlington, Skegness. Welcome to the world I see, significant more investment is needed for non-Tesla drivers ;-) Mind you, Tesla aren't much better either in these areas.
We looked at the Tesla's, but the cheapest was €44.000, idiotic price. So we bought the Dongfeng Nammi Box Launch edition for €20.700. Live is a lot better without paying double.
For me its about the cost I have a great park where i can charge my 63kwh Kona in about an hour I can take my dog for a walk and it cost about 23 pound.
Like many poorer areas there have been no upgrades usually due to low usage. Bolton has a high number of terraced housing so it's likely an area that will adopt EVs later than other areas. So it will probably only be business customers that will be using them at the moment like that BMW or the Maxus T90 pickup parked next to you. Other visitors are likely quite local and can charge at home so have no need to destination charge. It's not like many people will be visiting from a long distance for a day out. 😂
I disagree in part. I’m from Bolton and I have an electric car. I can never get a spot at these chargers at the weekend. The 50kw is always taken. Dave’s definitely not filming on a match day! It may have been enough when first installed but it now needs more chargers. Bolton was slow to install fast chargers but it’s fast catching now I know numerous installations in the town. Which I for one am pleased to see.
@@davestarkie2794 Well peak times are always an issue. But as they say a sunny day doesn't make a summer. The chargers need to support themselves now the incentives have gone away. So they chose locations that are likely more profitable. When Dave visited it wasn't exactly off peak as the general carpark looked quite busy but the type 2 chargers were all empty. I guess the chargers are busy match days with either away fans or home fans that might have traveled in from outside the area. I'm guessing your need to use the chargers means you have no home charging. I think at the moment in the North West you are probably a small user group. But as you say more chargers are always popping up, just in some place more than others.
As I’m just about to purchase my first electric campervan, a Nissan eNV200 with electric camping equipment. The shame is that it has a Chademo under the front!!
Get yourself a CCS to Chademo converter. You may weep at the cost, but you'll be sorry if you don't. Unless of course you are only going to camp locally?
More business for Tesla open to all. Not surprised as it's BP they don't want EV they want to sell toxic fossil fuel! Exactly several banks of 11-22kW type twos would be best there with a decent say 16 or 32 Hyper chargers for people only wanting to be there for say an hour.
Take your Tesla to the Isle of Wight, and you’ll find out how the also ran EV’s live, loads out of order and I think you won’t find a Tesla charger?, and most holiday accommodation not allowing you to granny charge
To EV haters: charging isn't a problem, chargers are everywhere, they are never all full, it's easy. To EV owners; get a tesla, anything else you can't charge properly, you won't get an empty charger, everything is a mess, tesla owners are sheltered from all of this.
Dave it cant be that good of a location or busy enough, busy Tesla would be there with a 12 / 18 or 24 bay hub and it would be "Open to all". Own goal scored, Tongue firmly in cheek.
Nobody who has a home charger, which includes nearly all EV owners, wants to charge at a shopping centre a few miles from their house. There is currently no point whatsoever in installing chargers in shopping centres. What is needed are more strategically situated charging hubs so longer journeys can be made with less planning involved.
I disagree, I run A Citroen Ami and a Dacia Spring, a trip to Braintree Freeport or Ashford Designer outlet would be much easier with destination chargers, 7kw wouid be fine.
I strongly suspect that very few people drive more than 20 miles each way to go to a shopping centre. Nearly all EVs will do that on a single charge from home. Why would anyone want to pay up to twelve times more to charge at a shopping centre than it would cost them at home if they don’t have to? There are quite a few chargers in supermarket car parks near me. I very seldom see them being used for that very reason. They are in the main pointless.
@@djtaylorutube Nearly all EV owners have home charging. It currently makes no economic sense to own an ev and rely on public charging. Until that changes there is absolutely no point in sticking low power expensive chargers in supermarket car parks and the like. They just don’t get used.
I hate shopping and even I could manage to get some reasonable added range from a 50kW charger in the time it takes me to buy a pair of trousers. I've said this before but look at the non-Tesla provision at the services on the M40 Northbound. Warwick Services in particular is very poorly served.
Dave, you mention staying at the shopping centre for up 4/5 hours. Not being an Ev owner, are you allowed to leave your car in a charging bay for that length of time? Or do you have to come out of the film half way through to move it?
Varies by location, but the general rule is if its a destination charger (typically 50kw or less) and you pay for parking at the site (i e. not free parking) then the charging bay will be a parking bay as well and you have to pay parking. If its a transit charger (typically those over 50kW) then its likely you don't pay parking but have to move the car once charged, to a parking bay if intending to stay onsite. Things vary so it's best to read the signage for the car parks rules, which may limit parking duration. In the past parking used to be free at chargers but these days this tends to only be the case if non-charging parking is also free.
Not everyone can afford a Tesla, Dave. The acceleration and top speed puts insurance premiums at the top end. 50 Kw is plenty fast enough if stopping for 45 minutes. Are we to see 400 volt cars sidelined in the next few years as newer models go 800 volt?
Yep, and that is because you have to be a member of the "BP Club" (not the real name, but a sarcastic finger pointer by myself). Nobody else can use them for either love or money.
@@janhenkins The first (and only) time I attempted to use BP Pulse in the UK was an awful experience. May 2023, A6, just outside of Market Harborough in Leicestershire. 6 unused bays but I couldn't charge my car, as I needed the BP Pulse app, which wasn't available to me in the EU Play Store. Imagine the situation if their BP's petrol pumps also only worked with an app - One that foreign drivers weren't allowed to install to boot!
11Kw is not hard to deliver but it depends on the onboard AC charger capacity of the car. Most are 11Kw. Its fast enough for a shopping experience as you want about 2 hours freedom.
I’ve been pampered by the simplicity of the Tesla plug and charge experience. I will not touch any other charger until I can plug and charge. I will risk running out of battery to avoid these obnoxiously complex/buggy/ glitchy app controlled chargers.
Dave - our local authority covers 502 square miles. in the south west corner, you can find our "major hub", which has 2 x 50kW rapids, 1 x 22kW fast, 7 x 7kW 'fast'. Our largest town has 1 x 50kw, 1 x 22, 1 x 7kW. Over the whole area, we have 4 x 50kW rapids at intervals of 20-40 miles. Otherwise it's AC chargers maybe 10 miles apart. My nearest Tesla location is a 44 mile round trip so, unless I'm in that city for some other purpose, it simply doesn't make sense for me to go there to charge. North of Perth & Dundee, we only have four Tesla locations - Inverness, Aberdeen, Aviemore, Fort William. Go south east of Edinburgh and there is only one until you get south of Newcastle. In fact, other than Gretna (which is basically in England), we have only 13 Tesla locations in Scotland - that means each location, on average (which might not be relevant) covers 2,300 square miles! But is that "disgraceful"? Does it worry me? Not at all - I know where I can and can't charge, and work within those limitations. I'm fortunate - I'm less than 5 miles from my nearest 50kW rapid - which was installed only 16 months ago while the rest of the UK was already installing ultra-fast units. Do I find 50kW speed "Disgusting"? Not at all - I know what to expect and work with it. There's an interesting human condition in which we're never satisfied with what we have. If I get a 20% raise in salary, I think it's great - for a couple of months then it becomes normal. If I got a 300kW charger (and a car capable of accepting that amount), it would be fantastic - for a few months, then it would become normal and I would be wishing it was faster. I can appreciate that if you live in the area roughly from Blackpool down to London and the south east, you have a wealth of Tesla options - you mentioned that you have at least three within a handful of miles from your home. But PLEASE bear in mind that a decent proportion of the UK doesn't have easy access to ultra-fast chargers. Yes, tell us that you would like older and slower chargers to be better. But PLEASE don't tell us that if you didn't have ultra-fast chargers near you, you wouldn't have an EV. ow does that make the rest of us feel? Did the Polar unit work? Probably yes, otherwise you would have told us. So there's a charger, and it's working. If someone is happy to pay 79p/kWh, let them. There might have been a very good reason why they didn't go to the Tesla charges a couple of miles away. Could it possibly have been that they were going to be at the shops for an hour and 50kW would be the perfect dwell time? Maybe they didn't know the Tesla units existed and that they could use them? I wouldn't know that Tesla had introduced open charging if I wasn't following the EV landscape as closely as I do. I have several friends with EVs and their interest goes little further than "it's a car". They don't watch EV TH-cam channels or talk to strangers with EVs. From the comments on yesterday's video, your audience wants more than we got today. Make the point about the shopping centre not appreciating the possible demand for charging. As you suggest, they might not know that much about EV charging so point them them to where they can get help. Suggest they do some market research. Telling them that they shouldn't be in the job won't entice them to pay attention to you. BE CONSTRUCTIVE! Goodness, don't I sometimes go on and on and on. But it's only because I care ...
I'm getting my first EV next year and wouldn't even consider buying anything else other than Tesla. Why would you with expensive, unreliable, slow chargers like these?
Bit short sighted to only consider a Tesla. Plenty of other models p, cheaper and nearly as efficient as a Tesla. This is a poor example of a charging bay but it is far from typical. I have no problems whatever finding places to charge my Kona the few times I have to use public chargers.
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Appreciate you shouting the appalling charging situation.
For me I cannot own a Tesla, not because of the Elon, I really couldn't care. I just do not like the ergonomics of Tesla cars, the shape and the lack of buttons and controls. That's just me and the way my brain works and what i like and I know the technology is beyond any other car maker etc.. So no matter how much you bang on how easy they are, how cheap and effortless the charging is I'm afraid i cannot live with one.. Just be thankful I drive an EV, have been since 2019 and would never go back to ICE.
You don't need DC chargers if you are going to spend a couple of hours shopping.
Correct you need 10's of 11Kwh chargers at a good price.
@@michaeldawson6309 Agreed. It would be great if I can gain a few extra miles while I shop, so anything between 3Kw -7Kw would do nicely. There are still loads of Zoë models out there that can do 11Kw, so to be able to charge at that speed would be great for them too.
@@janhenkins my Zoe can charge at up to 22kW AC
@@stephenbagwell8275 That's right, and it would be great to be able to charge at that speed everywhere you go.
@@stephenbagwell8275 Interesting enough, 22kW AC did not catch on much. Most cars can do just 11kW. Not sure how much more would the onboard charger cost to be 22kW rated. On the other hand, most homes won't have that much power, anyway (even on 3 phase it's 32 Amps and that's usually more than the whole household connection).
Dave, stop harping on with your "get a Tesla mantra" yes the superchargers are great VFM but not everyone can afford to buy a Tesla let alone to be able to afford to insure a car in insurance group 50. This talk about 50kW chargers being rubbish is out of line too as most people buying a reasonable priced used EV will probably get one with a maximum charging speed of 50kW or less, my current cars max charging speed is at most 46kW the car I'm shortly replacing it with maxes out at 50kW, I don't honestly understand the obsession with faster and faster rapid charging speeds, is life so short that you can't manage to wait 30-40 minutes to recharge your EV, charging for 15 minutes is hardly enough time for a toilet break, a sandwich and a coffee, chill out don't be in such a hurry.
Shopping centres need low priced 7-11kWh charging as many people will spend 3 to 4 hours here. Then a few 100+kWh rapid chargers for those that want to call in grab a drink and go.
Personally I think soemwhere around 50 EV charge points would be a good start!
3-4 hours!?!
Try going with a female and getting out in less time
@@memrjohnno You should see my wife shop... Her Leaf would be fully charged by the time she is finished.
Agreed. Although I would skew it more towards a huge number of 7kW chargers. 7kW chargers are absolutely perfect in this scenario because (a) they are cheap to install and operate by the shopping centre itself, and (b) if I can have a cheap charge that adds a few miles to my battery at a specific centre, I would rather shop there than a centre without chargers. Another added benefit is that all relatively modern EVs can use 7kW chargers with their own cables, so the CCS v. Chademo thing doesn't come into play.
In my opinion splash-and-dash doesn't really fit the shopping centre model all that well, although that of course depends on whether there are ultra-rapid chargers in the immediate area or not. In this particular case Dave said that there are ultra-rapids close by, so a bazillion cheap 7kW chargers would be more useful to the community.
@@janhenkins looooooooooool
Dave, you do some good content, and I have learned a lot from your video's. But of late you are seeming to be a Tesla fan boy, you may want to reflect on that.
I feel these location only need a 11Kw charger maximum (at a cheap rate!), the chances are, people are out shopping or watching a film and not in a rush. If they're in a rush, go to a fast charger location. I'd like to see a row of 20+ charging points at 11Kw, that would be nice, but unlikely to happen at the moment (one day it will) as likely to be ICED!
Putting super fast DC chargers in these locations will result in stress, worrying about getting charged by the minute as you run out of the cinema to move your car, so 4 hours max should be sufficient before being charged (even if 100% full).
Absolutely
Dave these are destination chargers not transit chargers, whilst there should indeed be more of them at this site they don't need to be rapid/ultra-rapid for the intended use. A mix of 7/22/43kW AC and 50kW DC will suite most cars and most needs at a retail site.
A fairer Tesla Network comparison would be Tesla Destination charger sites that similarly vary from 7kW to 22kW AC.
If the site had higher power chargers one would need to return to the car before finishing charging to move the car to a non-charging parking space. Whereas the indended use is a parking space, sometime paid, with an additional function as a EV charger. The issue is there should be more of them at the site rather than the power rating.
Absolutely, you need a charger that adds a significant amount of charge during the course of your visit. You don't want to worry about blocking a charger after an hours charging if you're spending the afternoon shopping and having a meal.
Where is the cash slot
Where is the cash slot?
@@charlesflouvat1829 - The UK is mainly contactless these days. Even many car park payment machines don't accept cash, they're pay by card or by phone.
Also you don't really need destination chargers so much any more with the greater range of cars. It was more if a thing when you hardly had enough charge to get to the shopping centre (in this case) and back home and even an extra 30 miles while you shopped was very helpful. My guess is that's why they're empty - most people can charge more cheaply at home and will use only relatively small percentage of the battery on the round trip.
People who can't charge at home would also appreciate the chance to top up, but it doesn't need to be very fast if the expectation is that you'll spend an hour or two at the location and you're not doing a full charge. Even 50 kW will charge most EVs 20%-80% in 20 minutes to an hour if you really wanted to, but this is probably not a common use case at this location. Give us more cheap slower chargers at these locations - less expensive to install should equal lower charging costs, perhaps additionally subsidised by the shopping centre to attract customers.
I think 50kW is fine for a shopping centre. Realistically most people visiting a shopping centre are going to be there at least an hour or two. So as long as a car charges in under an hour it's not a problem. You don't need 200kW in that situation. Still, the age of chargers can become a problem, as 4 year old chargers often require an app that nobody wants, or some RFID card that nobody has. 11kW chargers on the other hand, and especially non-tethered ones, need to be binned. They're absolutely not fit for purpose.
My own issue is locations that ONLY have Tesla chargers (that in reality are not compatible with some ccs cars even when they say they are open to 'all' - and worse, shopping centres with Tesla chargers that AREN'T open to all.)
No. 50Kw is way to fast. My BMW i3 would be full from empty in less than 1 hour at 50Kw. Most people will arrive here at maybe 50% or more state of charge and for me that means less than 30mins on a 50Kw charger. 11Kw is sensible at a shopping mall.
@@michaeldawson6309Absolutely, often 7kw is fast enough. My Dacia wouid be pretty much fully charged after a couple of hours on 7kw if I arrived with more than 20%. I'd have to think about moving it. Even it's 30kw DC maximum is too fast.
@@ziggarillo Except at some 7KW chargers there is a 1hr use limit. So you still need to rush back and move the car and get a very small charge added.
@@michaeldawson6309 We need a mix of all. 7-11kW, 50kW, and fast. Make them all easy to use and people will pick the one that best fits their use case on that particular day.
@@mbak7801 That is just silly, 1 hour max on a 7kW charger makes it useless, and would also ruin my shopping experience. In a situation like that I would rather not charge, or go somewhere else where I can get a meaningful charge without the silly time limitation. Bah, humbug! 😛
50kW is more than enough for a shopping centre since you aren't going to want to interrupt your shopping. In fact 7kW is the ideal here, there just needs to be more of them.
7-11Kw chargers are perfect for these areas. I don't want to run to the shop then run back before I have finished my purchase because it is charged already.
Agree but they should have provided 20 at least not 4 :-) and keep the cost sensible for these like less than 50p
It’s not the issue that they are fast chargers but the fact there are so few - My local village’s, Ashtead, car park has 10!
Yes
I agree, or even better, have lots of rapid ones so it doesn't matter if the car has finished but you're still in Nandos because there are plenty of other bays for other drivers. That way, you can have a quick charge if you need to dash, or have a long charge and not feel guilty. Having said that, I suppose the 11kw ones are much cheaper.
Agreed fast chargers are ideal for these shopping centres no ones wants to have to move your car after 30-40 mins to avoid overstaying fees
Four years of driving an i3. During that time, 63% miles travelled from ‘home’ with 75% of charging sessions done there. Rapid (50kW) charging on ‘trips’ is done at motorway services, coffee/farm shops, etc. Fast charging on ‘trips’ is overnight near accommodation or in public car parks near beach/walks/places of interest. I would not dream of charging at Be.EV Trafford Centre or any CPO at Gateshead retail etc. Why would anyone buy from a retail park if they can charge at home for 27p or less?
The opposite side of that coin is marketing their site. On a trip, I will stop at Gretna Village retail or Trafford Centre because Tesla is 43p/53p, and then the retailers will benefit from my purchases. If a retail park gave me fast charging (7kW) at (say) their cost price of 15p, my current Amazon purchases would be there instead, and the food outlets would get my custom as a bonus.
This was the same problem at the Large Brent Cross retail park in London until last year where brand new 22 chargers were installed fantastic for shopping or a visit to the cinema, all retail parks should be invested in charing bays. 👍
😂😂😂,
I think what's happening now is that charging companies are realising that EV sales have stalled and manufacturers are wobbling so they are slowing down in their commitment to the charger infrastructure.
We still have only a single, (very unreliable) BP Polar 50KW charger in our entire district; there are multiple 7 KW chargers in every council carpark, but last time I looked, they wanted 84p per KWh for them, so hardly anyone uses them (MHDC).
The next nearest Rapid charger is another single BP Polar 50KW of similar vintage - nearly 5 miles out of town, at a luxury hotel.
These two chargers make that one in your video look brand new; and you are correct, they can only handle one port at a time.
The one in town regularly decides it is only going to deliver 8-10KW, yet always behaves impeccably when the BPP engineer turns up [rolls eyes].
Hi Dave. Great content as usual. If you want to find pitiful EV charging you should try Telford Shopping Centre. Telford is quite a large town in Shropshire. It has a massive shopping centre which boasts 4000 parking spaces, with a grand total of zero chargers. There used to be 4 BP Pulse 7kw chargers on a near site at Asda. They were free when they worked, which was very rare. They are now switched off because Adsa don't want to pick up the tab.
Dave one of those fast charging posts is £0.59 kWh the other one is £0.00p kWh
The 50kW one is £0.77p kWh.
Glad you’re going to put a bit more focus on non-Tesla EV charging infrastructure, not everyone wants a Tesla and with more and more EV choice available this content is needed. Thanks Dave
@@Dural1985 Do you expect him to be positive about non-Tesla chargers ?
@ very unlikely, but that’s not what I’m saying, just needs to be talked about more.
The Metro Centre in Gateshead is a joy to visit for EV users with 100+ chargers in and around the centre. The Tesla network on the other hand is absolutely dire in the North East with only 8 old V2 chargers at Washington which are always busy.
Agreed.why no chargers at junction of a1 and A19 at Seaton burn.
Electric sub station on site and 3 unoccupied lots
I don't think you are supposed to mention that here!!!
I have just bought an EV and found the charging network in France excellent on motorways, Italy is not as good on motorways but other chargers are available nearby motorways there.Uk seemed expensive but need to research my local area of Cambridgeshire when i return to Uk.
Why install more chargers, if only 1 out of 6 is being used while the parking lot is crowded? I used to charge my BMW with 22kW while shopping in similar venues, but now that we charge at home, why bother pay 45p/kW if it is cheaper (and also 22kW) at home? But I'm Swiss and don't know how expensive public charging in GB is...
It depends how far you’ve driven and whether you started with a full battery. I think charging should be everywhere so there’s no panic trying to find one. UK DC charging is around 1€ per kWh. Rarely find anything less than 0.5€
New game. Down a shot each time you hear "As a Tesla driver" 😂
Hi Dave, I wonder how far people actually travel to get to any out of town shopping centre? My nearest big one is Swindon 30 miles from where I live I would never need to charge to get there and back. Having a Kia E-Niro with great range in 16 months I’ve only used public charging 4 times as it is crazy expensive. If I was somewhere like that I think 7Kw chargers would be fine as previously mentioned I wouldn’t want to rush back to the car to unplug. We need the right speed chargers in the right places. 7Kw is no good at a supermarket when you probably won’t be there an hour. So glad you’re pointing all these problems out. fyi. Reading services M4 Westbound are putting a lot more Gridserve chargers in. I couldn’t get a Three mobile signal so couldn’t use the app and had to pay full price.
I see a pattern in the UK, instead of putting chargers where they might just be helpful, the tactic is to put them where you also have to pay to park. Rip off Britain strikes again!
Not realy, for destination chargers it more of a parking bay where one can happen to charge. This allows one to charge and return to the car one finished shopping, watching a movie or dining out.
If this was a charging only bay (with a rapid+ charger) one would need to return mid-activity to move the car to a parking bay (paying for parking in that bay).
The issue with this site is a lack of investment to increase the number of chargers.
@@GruffSillyGoat But destination chargers are also something many people want for overnight charging, and having to pay both the charging and then parking on top of that, makes EV ownership more costly.
Most retail parks don't allow overnight parking. Which is why having mixed provision of AC charging with some 50kW DC charging at these sites makes sense.
I'm currently charging at a 50kW Tritium throttled to 40kW and limited to 30min. Yep they still exist. Used to be swamped by Uber but is now a quiet location and a great place for a walk. One of the first "rapid" chargers in the city in which I live. So glad that there has been a slow but steady growth of 125kW dispensers. The world is changing. At last.
I guessed 6, I’m always a glass half full chap😂. How wrong could I be!
This is so bad Dave, we all know it. A lot of EV owners from around the country say chargers are everywhere, but the country isn’t evenly covered. About time the government insisted X number of chargers per 100 parking spaces. Increase X every year.
Yes yes Dave you love Tesla. We get it because you go off on your Tesla love in on every video, it's getting tedious. Please stick to the point.
Ealing Broadway shopping centre in West London, 600 capacity during the week and 800 capacity at weekends. Only 6 chargers. It is a covered car park on the top floor and not a single solar panel anywhere. 😖🤨
Have a Renault Scenic and charged at the Tesla chargers in Aberdeen. Relatively cheap, fast and seamless using the app, and no Tesla needed.
The other thing about shopping center chargers is that if you put them in a GOOD location, they will get ICEd. If you put them out in the middle of NOWHERE, they WON'T get used (people being people, they don't like to walk). And if you charge FULL RETAIL price for charging, their only value is for people who are really desperate for a charge.
On the other hand, if they're FREE they will be abused and monopolized.
The idea I like is a LEVEL 1 charger (that would be 110V in North America) that is FREE for say TWO hours (controlled by a timer). Level 1 is basically just an electrical circuit and so pretty cheap and easy to install. Yes, you can come back to the car for another two hours, but count on human nature to keep that rare. It's common to get free parking for 20/60/90/120 minutes at many retail parking lots in busy areas (Toronto Eaton Center used to do that at one time for example), throwing in Level 1 charging for EVs would cost very little when electricity is $0.10 / kwh at wholesale.
The fact that the place even had chargers at all, and that they worked, still puts them ahead of the curve.
I also like the way the chargers are sheltered under the parking deck so someone not shopping can plug in the cord without getting wet.
One of my local sites. Bought our first EV a few weeks ago and went with my wife for one of our first charging experiences. Uttter garbage, almost put her off bothering to drive the EV. We had to leave the site and find somewhere else, so Middlebrook retail park lost all our custom for the day because of this joke of a charging area. As Dave says, time for the park Facilities Manager to move on to another job!
Hi Dave agree with you on how many old chargers are in these types of retail parks. The only good thing is new modern Ev’s some have very good range. My current car upwards to 300 miles and the other car I’m considering will cover well over 350 miles. So thankfully I don’t need to use the charging network unless on a long road trips holiday etc then I chose to use the large charging hubs if I need to. As I’m able to charge at home nearly all the time.
Yes not many chargers and only one being used ,had to change the channel name after you deleted my comment Dave deletes comments
Not another I love Tesla Rant!
I think the idea is that "As A Tesla Driver" (c)(tm) you are basically immune to 99% of all these charging issues due to their charging network being so well balanced and maintained. The rant is more towards the fact that for non-Tesla EV owners the situation is still a bit of a pig's ear.
@janhenkins I get it, but I'm genuinely interested in seeing what's happening with chargers, but I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing how wonderful Tesla is, especially when Musk has clearly poured millions of dollars into enabling the orange Turd to return to the White House.
@@simonpaine2347 I'm 100% in agreement there! I find it very difficult separating Tesla the company from Space Karen. At least we know that Dave is "fighting the good fight". I don't want to talk about the Orange Man, it just makes me physically sick when I do. Saying that it doesn't affect us here in the UK is disingenuous, it's going to be a seriously bumpy ride for the entire civilised world until he gets voted out. Anyway, I'm way off-topic, sorry! Chargers... 😀
When you take into consideration the likely distance car owners travel there and back from Middlebrook, then I suspect all the EV owners would not need a chargers….. they would charge at home instead, just as you yourself do with your Tesla.
Just repeating all the other comments; shopping is a ‘destination’. You need cheaper slower chargers at a location where you are going to be wandering around the shops for a couple of hours. It would be much better to have a massive bank of 22kW chargers than a handful of ultra-rapid chargers. It would be a pain in the arse to have walk from the shops all the way from the shops to unplug and move the car to a non-charging bay to free it up for another driver and avoid idling charges. In the future all car parks like this should be covered in solar panels and have at least 50 or 60 7-22kW charging posts at 35-40p/kWh.
35->40p/KWH is a stonking high price. Lidl are more reasonable at about 24p. Don't forget wholesale electricity is just over 6p for much of the time.
This is the point Dave, we need 7kWh destination chargers at all destinations including lamp posts, you can't keep telling everyone they only do 20 miles a day, but, once in a while need a >150kWh charger. They don't, they need to add 10+ miles on a shop, 10+ miles at the gym and long slow charging at home or their nearest lamp post if they don't have access to home charging. That is convenience. Fast chargers should only be for long journies, but, that's my opinion.
Personally I run a Citroen Ami and a Dacia Spring. If I'm going to a shopping centre all I need is a top up to get me home. My wife seldom let's me escape in less than 3hrs. Plugged into one of those chargers on either vehicle for 3 hours would be fine.
That gives me an 80 mile round trip in my Ami ( that's a long way in an Ami in one day) or 240 miles round trip in my Dacia,
We have none in many shopping areas in Wales. Why in Merthyr Tydfil , you dare not own a EV unless you can charge at home. But many homes are unsuitable for a fast charger, or the landlord may not allow it. Best way is biofuels for those with charging problems.
I was considering an ev because most of my charging could be done at home. But after considering the inconvenience of running anything other than a Tesla has put me off. Secondhand model 3s are now affordable but the group 50 insurance isnt.
Before watching. 4 x 7KWh. Maybe 2 x 22KWh. Then 2 x 150KWh. The last two is unlikely. This is Bolton not London or the South East. Zero of course is always possible.
Yep. This install is absolutely typical. Three dozen 7->22KWh at a sensible price chargers would be better as long as the price was low. Dave you live in a Tesla charging bubble. The two chargers which were being installed but behind fencing last year locally are now lit up. Except they are also still fenced off and inaccessible. The building which forms part of the install is still being renovated but work seems to have stalled. Mabey mid 2025 will see some progress. There are plenty of places and institutions where charger availability is dire to non existent.
sadlyin my area, most of the Tesla charges are used by the non-Tesla cars. So it's always busy
As they are now entitled to...
Nice work , network not sorted out just yet clearly . Why don't you do a real costs of your Tesla after 4 years include the deprecation/ lease etc plus free charging and how much it has actually cost , of course it's all going to be better now , early adoptors always pay a premium to be first in the club .
If I was in charge of charging at that site and looked at those empty bays I'd think that the current demand was being met.
Are charging rates of >50kW really necessary when the time on site is likely to be at least an hour?
It's a bit "chicken & egg" though. If it becomes known that there's unlikely to be a queue for a charger, more customers may be attracted to that site.
Ideally, lots more 6-11kW bays at a reasonable price, but as it stands I don't think the place is the best target for a rant, with or without the "the only way is Tesla" content, which is beginning to get tedious.
Speeds are fine. Just needs more chargers.
My lads got an apparent in central Manchester with underground parking included, I wonder why the landlords don't allow ev's?
Landlords do allow EV's, some don't.
As a southerner, I’m more likely to drive south rather than north. But we have quite a good supply of electric vehicle charging stations here in Hertfordshire!!
It's not a motorway where you want to "splash and dash", people will be there for a 2, 3, 4, 5 hours as you say in your video. If there's no demand, you can hardly blame them for not bothering with an upgrade.
It's great to see you creating conversations on charging Dave. However, I'm wondering if you got this particular analysis wrong except the rip off pricing. 50 and 11 kw charging seem really appropriate to 'destination parking' where people may plug in and top up quite conveniently for a matter of hours. High speed is less convenient in this context and it would presumably require a huge expensive grid connection to go for several ultra fast chargers anyway. The numbers would not add up. You mention the local Tesla supercharger is open to all EVs so I presume people go there, and it's not a Tesla vs the rest issue. I'm tempted to say this shopping centre has the ideal charging options for a shopping centre and we should campaign for something similar at every shopping centre, supermarket and high street car park as a kind of charging guarantee. Not to be confused with shopping centres near major routes that are appropriate ultra fast charger sites.
I have used this site about 3 year ago when I had a Ioniq 38kw. I can't believe still only have 5 charge points. One of reason's I switched to Tesla mode 3 highland was supercharger network. I never worry about charging just let the car plan my stops. I feel that other EV manufacturers are only selling half a car with a poor high cost charging network. The other thing is V3 V4 charger will charge 3 to 4 Tesla's an hour due to Tesla's battery heating. Greedserve your lucky if you get 1 to 2 hour.
Yeah Middlebrook is awful for charging and has been for some time. Surely they will upgrade once the current agreement ends. Awkward spot too next to the junction. Bolton was up until recently poorly covered by chargers. That is slowly changing with EV on the moves recent installations and other companies in the pipeline.
Glad I live rural - wouldn't go near a place like that .. far to many people for my liking 😁
Thanks for showing us visiting a charger museum
Tesla are definitely the better package although with Elon at the helm I would definitely think twice! The problem with Bolton Retail is anyone that needs mobility aids like wheelchair or even walkers would struggle with the small bays. I’ve a non-Tesla without home charging and it’s a pest although InstaVolt overnight at 53p makes it palatable
5/6 chargers and 1 being used and yet you're saying there should be more!
There are more to this particular situation than meets the eye. The unused AC chargers cannot be used by just anybody, you have to be a member of BP´s charging network and pay a subscription. Only then will you be given the RFID token to activate those chargers. In contrast the single DC charger can be activated via the BP phone app, which makes that the only charger that can be used in general. The other 4 is useless.
The busy seaside resort of Whitby has one rapid charger and about 15 AC posts. Just crazy.
AC posts seems logical - people going to Whitby will be going for the day, so destination charge points are exactly what's needed. 🤷♂
@InBodWeTrust yes that's right, but there needs to be variety. Just one rapid and it's only 50kW.
Used one at West cliff car park whitby. Parked for 2 hours expecting at least 7kw/hr & all I pulled was 3kw/hr nothing more than a top up waste of time really. Much better at Helmsley using the Zest charger where I got 35kw/hr in 50 mins to get me to 80% capacity.
@@GaryMorley-g3k the 4 mer 22kW AC up at St Hilda's are good option, you've just got to watch out for their 9 hour time limit. Still not ideal as the list of parking rules is massive.
@@GaryMorley-g3k was it a 7kW post? An 11kW post? A 7kW post with 2 outlets?
An 11kW post will (probably) only give 3.5kW into a single phase charger. And a 7kW 2 outlet post may only give 3.5kW per outlet if both are in use.
The Tesla chargers that are open to none Tesla EVs are incredibly (notably Trafford park) busy and you will be lucky to be able to charge between 10pm -11pm which is when the reduced rate per kw starts. Even when you do find a bay they are slow, at best with a preconditioned battery and 4% remaining I got barely past 70 KW speed and then for only a short period. I have used twice, and on both occasions it took over 35 mins to get to 80%. There are no facilities, no shelters or shops available at that time either. As the price for charging (with membership cards) for none EVs is the same for Tesla owners then as more chargers become available for all EVs then Tesla will lose its advantage.
I've been there a couple of times and no issues and no one else arriving had to queue, however it was earlier this year and more and more EVs are on the road so may be an issue now, truth is, people will seek the cheapest normally, just like petrol and diesel prices.
@ I noted several large delivery fans charging - no drivers in or near the vehicles so perhaps they are charging overnight? I would normally go to Stockport as Trafford is rather busy, but they have the fast chargers out of commission (4 weeks now). Fortunately I’m able to do most of my charging from home so it wasn’t a moan but rather an observation.
Middlebrook 😂 BP will not repair those 11kW units because they would have to make them contactless. They will simply walk away.
I’ve contacted BP and they confirmed this is their policy.
I would have thought they could repair the 11kW without having to upgrade the payment option as the Public Charge Point Regulations only talks about "new installations" over 8kW with retrospective for chargers over 50kW.
That sort of multi-outlet site seems exactly the sort of place that should have destination charge points. The only issue is that there should be more, and newer.
Those 11kW destination points will need replaced per the law changes anyway as they are >8kW.
The Public Charge Point Regulations only applies to new installations above 8kW. It applies retrospectively to those of 50kW and above so the 11kW wouldn't need to be upgraded to comply.
@@paulweston1106 good point ... I was conflating the two items 👍
I've pointed this out to you before, get yourself over to the East Coast, places like Whitby, Scarborough, Filey, Bridlington, Skegness. Welcome to the world I see, significant more investment is needed for non-Tesla drivers ;-) Mind you, Tesla aren't much better either in these areas.
We looked at the Tesla's, but the cheapest was €44.000, idiotic price.
So we bought the Dongfeng Nammi Box Launch edition for €20.700.
Live is a lot better without paying double.
For me its about the cost I have a great park where i can charge my 63kwh Kona in about an hour I can take my dog for a walk and it cost about 23 pound.
Like many poorer areas there have been no upgrades usually due to low usage. Bolton has a high number of terraced housing so it's likely an area that will adopt EVs later than other areas.
So it will probably only be business customers that will be using them at the moment like that BMW or the Maxus T90 pickup parked next to you.
Other visitors are likely quite local and can charge at home so have no need to destination charge.
It's not like many people will be visiting from a long distance for a day out. 😂
I disagree in part. I’m from Bolton and I have an electric car. I can never get a spot at these chargers at the weekend. The 50kw is always taken. Dave’s definitely not filming on a match day! It may have been enough when first installed but it now needs more chargers. Bolton was slow to install fast chargers but it’s fast catching now I know numerous installations in the town. Which I for one am pleased to see.
@@davestarkie2794 Well peak times are always an issue. But as they say a sunny day doesn't make a summer. The chargers need to support themselves now the incentives have gone away. So they chose locations that are likely more profitable.
When Dave visited it wasn't exactly off peak as the general carpark looked quite busy but the type 2 chargers were all empty.
I guess the chargers are busy match days with either away fans or home fans that might have traveled in from outside the area.
I'm guessing your need to use the chargers means you have no home charging. I think at the moment in the North West you are probably a small user group.
But as you say more chargers are always popping up, just in some place more than others.
As I’m just about to purchase my first electric campervan, a Nissan eNV200 with electric camping equipment. The shame is that it has a Chademo under the front!!
Get yourself a CCS to Chademo converter. You may weep at the cost, but you'll be sorry if you don't. Unless of course you are only going to camp locally?
Our nearest Morrisons has 6 EV chargers, I have never seen an EV on any of them all ICE.
Probably because they are GeniPoint at 80p or more or broken like ours is.
@@michaeldawson6309 After months of being out of order the charger at our local Morrisons is working again and now accepts card payment.
@@michaeldawson6309 Don't think it's that. There's plenty of cars parked on them, there just not EV's.
Great video
More business for Tesla open to all. Not surprised as it's BP they don't want EV they want to sell toxic fossil fuel! Exactly several banks of 11-22kW type twos would be best there with a decent say 16 or 32 Hyper chargers for people only wanting to be there for say an hour.
As an Australian, this all looks pretty good. EV charging at shopping centres? What will they think of next?
This is are local shopping place .electric charging here is rubbish what s going on 😡
Take your Tesla to the Isle of Wight, and you’ll find out how the also ran EV’s live, loads out of order and I think you won’t find a Tesla charger?, and most holiday accommodation not allowing you to granny charge
I’ve had my Tesla model 3 LR for about 4 months and only charge on granny .
"As a Tesla owner...", Eye roll.
To EV haters: charging isn't a problem, chargers are everywhere, they are never all full, it's easy.
To EV owners; get a tesla, anything else you can't charge properly, you won't get an empty charger, everything is a mess, tesla owners are sheltered from all of this.
@@anthonypilgrim3593 Musk haters are not EV haters.
@@davidlloyd1526 Musk haters are not necessarily Tesla haters...
I bet it will be the same if you make another visit in 5 yrs time...
Dave it cant be that good of a location or busy enough, busy Tesla would be there with a 12 / 18 or 24 bay hub and it would be "Open to all". Own goal scored, Tongue firmly in cheek.
Nobody who has a home charger, which includes nearly all EV owners, wants to charge at a shopping centre a few miles from their house. There is currently no point whatsoever in installing chargers in shopping centres. What is needed are more strategically situated charging hubs so longer journeys can be made with less planning involved.
I disagree, I run A Citroen Ami and a Dacia Spring, a trip to Braintree Freeport or Ashford Designer outlet would be much easier with destination chargers, 7kw wouid be fine.
I strongly suspect that very few people drive more than 20 miles each way to go to a shopping centre. Nearly all EVs will do that on a single charge from home. Why would anyone want to pay up to twelve times more to charge at a shopping centre than it would cost them at home if they don’t have to? There are quite a few chargers in supermarket car parks near me. I very seldom see them being used for that very reason. They are in the main pointless.
"with home charger". That's the crux of it. What about those without?
@@djtaylorutube Nearly all EV owners have home charging. It currently makes no economic sense to own an ev and rely on public charging. Until that changes there is absolutely no point in sticking low power expensive chargers in supermarket car parks and the like. They just don’t get used.
@@CGNorwichI don't disagree that it makes no sense, to you and I but there are people who buy without a home charger.
They have to do somewhere.
Challenge the shopping centre Dave, may be Tesla could be given the change to take up the challenge
Why soould they provide any ???
Not a service station
'forget about Elon Musk' ? well what if you can't?
I hate shopping and even I could manage to get some reasonable added range from a 50kW charger in the time it takes me to buy a pair of trousers.
I've said this before but look at the non-Tesla provision at the services on the M40 Northbound. Warwick Services in particular is very poorly served.
Me too. By the time I walked to the shops and found what I wanted my i3 would be almost full.
50 KW is enough when you go shopping. Take your time and have a coffee too😊
Dave, you mention staying at the shopping centre for up 4/5 hours. Not being an Ev owner, are you allowed to leave your car in a charging bay for that length of time? Or do you have to come out of the film half way through to move it?
Varies by location, but the general rule is if its a destination charger (typically 50kw or less) and you pay for parking at the site (i e. not free parking) then the charging bay will be a parking bay as well and you have to pay parking.
If its a transit charger (typically those over 50kW) then its likely you don't pay parking but have to move the car once charged, to a parking bay if intending to stay onsite.
Things vary so it's best to read the signage for the car parks rules, which may limit parking duration.
In the past parking used to be free at chargers but these days this tends to only be the case if non-charging parking is also free.
But the bays are empty.....
Not everyone can afford a Tesla, Dave. The acceleration and top speed puts insurance premiums at the top end. 50 Kw is plenty fast enough if stopping for 45 minutes. Are we to see 400 volt cars sidelined in the next few years as newer models go 800 volt?
My council owns our car park they planned for 50kw then 7kw then 150kw finally settling for 22kw so ok if you own a zoe
2 of the 3 weren't being used ! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yep, and that is because you have to be a member of the "BP Club" (not the real name, but a sarcastic finger pointer by myself). Nobody else can use them for either love or money.
@@janhenkins The first (and only) time I attempted to use BP Pulse in the UK was an awful experience.
May 2023, A6, just outside of Market Harborough in Leicestershire. 6 unused bays but I couldn't charge my car, as I needed the BP Pulse app, which wasn't available to me in the EU Play Store.
Imagine the situation if their BP's petrol pumps also only worked with an app - One that foreign drivers weren't allowed to install to boot!
11kw is not a fast charger! And they probably only output 7kw anyway. In my experience of 11kw chargers they are never anywhere near that.
11Kw is not hard to deliver but it depends on the onboard AC charger capacity of the car. Most are 11Kw. Its fast enough for a shopping experience as you want about 2 hours freedom.
I’ve been pampered by the simplicity of the Tesla plug and charge experience. I will not touch any other charger until I can plug and charge. I will risk running out of battery to avoid these obnoxiously complex/buggy/ glitchy app controlled chargers.
Come to sunny widnes and you'll be wishing you was back in Bolton 😂😂😂
Dave - our local authority covers 502 square miles. in the south west corner, you can find our "major hub", which has 2 x 50kW rapids, 1 x 22kW fast, 7 x 7kW 'fast'. Our largest town has 1 x 50kw, 1 x 22, 1 x 7kW. Over the whole area, we have 4 x 50kW rapids at intervals of 20-40 miles. Otherwise it's AC chargers maybe 10 miles apart.
My nearest Tesla location is a 44 mile round trip so, unless I'm in that city for some other purpose, it simply doesn't make sense for me to go there to charge. North of Perth & Dundee, we only have four Tesla locations - Inverness, Aberdeen, Aviemore, Fort William. Go south east of Edinburgh and there is only one until you get south of Newcastle. In fact, other than Gretna (which is basically in England), we have only 13 Tesla locations in Scotland - that means each location, on average (which might not be relevant) covers 2,300 square miles! But is that "disgraceful"? Does it worry me? Not at all - I know where I can and can't charge, and work within those limitations.
I'm fortunate - I'm less than 5 miles from my nearest 50kW rapid - which was installed only 16 months ago while the rest of the UK was already installing ultra-fast units. Do I find 50kW speed "Disgusting"? Not at all - I know what to expect and work with it.
There's an interesting human condition in which we're never satisfied with what we have. If I get a 20% raise in salary, I think it's great - for a couple of months then it becomes normal. If I got a 300kW charger (and a car capable of accepting that amount), it would be fantastic - for a few months, then it would become normal and I would be wishing it was faster.
I can appreciate that if you live in the area roughly from Blackpool down to London and the south east, you have a wealth of Tesla options - you mentioned that you have at least three within a handful of miles from your home. But PLEASE bear in mind that a decent proportion of the UK doesn't have easy access to ultra-fast chargers. Yes, tell us that you would like older and slower chargers to be better. But PLEASE don't tell us that if you didn't have ultra-fast chargers near you, you wouldn't have an EV. ow does that make the rest of us feel?
Did the Polar unit work? Probably yes, otherwise you would have told us. So there's a charger, and it's working. If someone is happy to pay 79p/kWh, let them. There might have been a very good reason why they didn't go to the Tesla charges a couple of miles away. Could it possibly have been that they were going to be at the shops for an hour and 50kW would be the perfect dwell time? Maybe they didn't know the Tesla units existed and that they could use them? I wouldn't know that Tesla had introduced open charging if I wasn't following the EV landscape as closely as I do. I have several friends with EVs and their interest goes little further than "it's a car". They don't watch EV TH-cam channels or talk to strangers with EVs.
From the comments on yesterday's video, your audience wants more than we got today. Make the point about the shopping centre not appreciating the possible demand for charging. As you suggest, they might not know that much about EV charging so point them them to where they can get help. Suggest they do some market research. Telling them that they shouldn't be in the job won't entice them to pay attention to you. BE CONSTRUCTIVE!
Goodness, don't I sometimes go on and on and on. But it's only because I care ...
Has it been running reliably for the last 4 years?
At least 50 7Kw and 20 Fast ones ?
I'm getting my first EV next year and wouldn't even consider buying anything else other than Tesla. Why would you with expensive, unreliable, slow chargers like these?
Bit short sighted to only consider a Tesla. Plenty of other models p, cheaper and nearly as efficient as a Tesla. This is a poor example of a charging bay but it is far from typical. I have no problems whatever finding places to charge my Kona the few times I have to use public chargers.
There are plenty of fast chargers for non-tesla, personally, I wouldn't touch a tesla out of principle, I think most people know what I mean by this.
@@Ian-xq4rt Yes, you mean that you can't think for yourself and you believe the lies told about Elon.
@@geoffersvoiceofreason2534 After test driving a new one, I'm sold. Love it.
How much is your Tesla worth now?
OK, and how many fuel pumps do you have there?
so you are complaining about lack of charges and want more, why would they put more in when the ones that are there dint get used
Have any chargers got a cash slot yet?
How many petrol pumps still have one? Can't say I've seen one since 1980 *something*.
guessing 10 in total. probs all 7kw
Welp I was wrong. But in fairness there is only one car in there right now!
You say they need more but i can only see one car using them
So there will be plenty on a Saturday afternoon? Or a couple of weeks before Xmas?
A lot of us don't even have CCS, Dave. :)
He, I guessed five!!!!!
What do I win?
Seriously, shocking.