Great video Dave. A few points, so remember China was about the 8th poorest country in the world after WW2 and they needed all the help they could get. They were only just getting off their knees in the 80's when VW turned up. It wasn't so much copying, the western manufactures could sell tariff free in China if they entered into a joint venture with a local company and agreed to a technology transfer. They didn't have to do this. The German car manufactures, and I'm sure others, never produced their best technology in China. In fact you could argue they helped encourage the Chinese to develop EV's, as the stuff being sold to them was the most polluting old technology available. One great example VW made the Santana in China for almost 40 years, think they only made it for about 4 years in the west. Selling old out of date cars like this really helped spur them on to find less polluting alternatives and hence them turning to EV's. Another example is the fact that Audi's newest design concept doesn't have the 4 rings on the grill as it is so tainted there. So VW was making 50% of its profits on 40% of its world sales in China, this clearly tells you they were making a small fortune out there selling ancient technology. I believe western brands were about 65% of the market and are now down to about 25% of an admittedly larger market now. Interestingly less than even 5 years ago the Chinese consumer was more reluctant than us in the west to buy Chinese made products, preferring western brands. This has now changed and they can't believe how dated the western brands are, with the exception of Tesla, compared to the local stuff. To give you an idea VW has to sell a high spec ID3 for about £12,000, with superior Chinese software as the locals wouldn't put up with what we get in our ones. Theres a channel called Inside China Auto by a Brit who does some good videos on Chinese cars and has just, at the time of posting, released one from the Guangzhou motor show.
Great analysis. My father told me in the 1960s (he was state engineer in malaya) that within 30 years the Chinese would rule the roost as they were brilliant engineers and hard workers. He was a bit out with the date but right about the outccome. Tarrifs are foolish. They will not work. Cannot see sir keith starmer grasping this fact.
I think your father was right I remember back in the 1990s thinking this was it this was the last chance for the west to turn things around when it came to a rising China In 1998 around mid 60s of the factories in China still had foreign ownership By 2008 that number dropped to mid 30s And that was before the US subprime crisis cause the shuttering of 100 thousand factories put 27 million people out of work in China. Most never went back to the factories to work Question becomes where do you put the economic/competitive advantage one country had over the other Definitely in the 90s the USA was dependent on China for its goods and that’s when the average westerner first started to hear about trade deficits and China holdings of US debt
EU tariffs aren’t applicable here and I believe Starmer is courting Chinese brands to set up shop in the UK providing jobs. Also a much more generally clean energy mindset and action plan than their predecessors, particularly Sunak.
@@markbennett6658 Chinese EV companies (not Chinese bought companies like Volvo/Polestar) sold 300k vehicles in the EU in 2023 Most people don’t know 30 million cars are sold in China every year. Of those 8 million were EVs last year and projected 10 million EVs this year That still leaves 20 million ICE vehicles sold in China every year many of which are made by US and European Legacy car manufacturers China could put the final nail in the coffin, for many of the automakers… cite over production, national security risk, fears, threat etc etc But then we are lucky they don’t think in zero-sum game type of ways or else they could bankrupt a lot of companies Heck most people don’t know it’s EU multinationals whose high flying stocks are in their stock portfolios/ pensions who are making the lion share of the profits exporting their goods from China back to the EU Inflating that EU trade deficit to China Which btw pales in comparison to the 500 billion USD …(EU companies based within China ) make selling their goods to Chinese consumers every year The EU is just to duuuuuum…to see China is their market Btw if you want manufacturing to go back to Europe You need to build the factories, build the infrastructure, give financial incentives, tax breaks, educate the workers build the educational facilities etc etc etc Meaning all that cost money Meaning most Europeans need to be happy to pay even more taxes and pay even more for their European made goods So that some a Europeans can have manufacturing jobs
@markbennett6658 that's pure fantasy, the UK and the US are locked step about China, and the trouble making by US NGO,s with UK help in 2019 in Hong Kong which will never be forgotten
I have been telling people this for a long time. Businesses wanted to use the low cost manpower of China. They bacame masters and they were faster able to switch to the new technology, compared to the dinosaur businesses stuck in the way they make things. The Chinese have also become richer and so are not necessarily going to stay cheaper. Even Tesla and Apple make many products in China. This was a great as well as very well explained and timely.
I believe the factory out there is Tesla's most efficient. And I think Apple tried to move some iPhone production overseas but failed. Chinese labour lost if cost competitiveness about 20 years ago, however their factories are now, generally, the most hi-tech and competitive in the world.
HOORAY! At last, good, solid content with which I never once disagreed, even wearing my sceptical, critical appraisal hat. Listen to the criticism of yesterday's content, Dave, and take it on! MORE OF THIS STANDARD DAVE even if it means dropping the need to put something out every day. Quality is king!
The fact of the matter is that China has been de-risking from the US and EU for at least a decade, competently and successfully. They have invested massively and smartly in developing new markets outside of the west, e.g. their biggest trading partner is ASEAN, not the US nor the EU. They have successfully broken into the newest and most technological advanced industries, e.g. green energy, EV, aviation, communication, space, semiconductor, quantum computing, AI, biosciences, etc. etc. China can live without the US and the west; it would be a bit painful but manageable. The US and the west sure as hell cannot live without China. Their societies are not accustomed to the notion of living smaller. Without imports from China, these societies will simply fall apart.
Very illuminating and enlightening video void of the usual bias trope. But sadly there are only a handful level-headed intelligent prople like Dave around to shine brightly in the darkness of today. ❤from Indonesia
In the West the fundamentals and principles that made their manufacturing and engineering powerful were readily discarded over the pursuit of short term profit and gains. The C-Suite of these companies have known for a long time what the Chinese were capable of and yet stayed the course and are now feeling the consequences - well the workers and local economies are anyway. This is NOT to say that Chinese companies can't fall into a similar trap if not careful.
Legacy autos are status symbols: status is inversely correlated with usefulness. Ice autos are pretty much useless, so as status symbols… they are perfect!❤
Q: Why is China such a threat? They are: A1: smarter; A2: better educated; A3: more disciplined; A4: less addicted; A5: wealthier; A6: less neurotic; A7: more agreeable; A8: healthier; oh! Did I mention “smarter?”
A good episode thank you. I do wonder when people will start to loo at other parts of the 'cycle'. If you take jobs away from people in the west, how do they afford to buy the other products? I am not saying that we need to stop the cheaper products(I don't think we could anyway), no what I am saying is that producing the products is only one part of the cycle. As humans we need to look at the complete cycle.
Buy shares in BYD and Geely. I have. There is a Brexit benefit for MG in having the London Design Centre designing British cars for SAIC, the Chinese manufacturer, to build. Trump is an isolationist - good more for the rest of the world.
@@steverichmond7142 Still the same point - nothing in EU membership would have stopped a UK company designing for anyone in a nn-EU country. I can't see that it's a Brexit benefit.
Because the UK is not in the EU the tariffs do not apply to the UK. MG's would be far more expensive if they were subject to EU/Chinese tariffs. My point is that we get to enjoy British design on cheap(er) cars.
@@steverichmond7142 I'm not sure why you keep changing your point. I agree that, being out of the EU we're not affected by any EU tariffs on Chinese cars. But you originally said "There is a Brexit benefit for MG in having the London Design Centre designing British cars for SAIC, the Chinese manufacturer, to build." As far as I'm aware, having the London Design Centre designing British cars for SAIC has got nothing to do with tariffs on the imported vehicles. So my point remains - nothing in EU membership would have stopped a UK company designing for anyone in a non-EU country. I can't see that it's a Brexit benefit. Anyhow, it seems there's little point in continuing the discussion other to say that I own an MG5, made by SAIC Motor (more correctly, the SAIC Motor Corporation Limited) so enjoy the cheaper prices China offers (although to me, £35k doesn't seem "cheap"), and have nothing against Chinese imports or, indeed, UK companies working for Chinese companies. As Dave points out in his video, all we're doing is transferring our knowledge to the Chinese, further helping them acquire knowledge and understanding. As he rightly suggests, the West shot itself in the foot. Thank you Margaret Thatcher for your legacy of offshoring and de-industrialisation instead of using the North Sea Oil revenues to rebuild our national infrastructure (which slipped as a result of paying for the two World Wars) and to re-equip our manufacturing sector. We had one chance - and she gave it away in tax cuts. And, of course, massive thanks to David Cameron and Boris Johnson for taking us out of Europe. In what has become a cliché - the only country ever to inflict trade sanctions upon itself. There should be plenty in there to maintain a discussion for a month or two :)
Every coubtry learned frim each other and made improvements. Startingbwith the steam engine. China did learn from the west west overtook it, and the west can't accept this fact !
What BEVs need to survive is massive subsidies and legislation that tips the scales against I.C.E vehicles. Without those, electric vehicles are dead in the water.
@@stevenjones916 In China 30 million vehicles are sold in the country every year Last year 8 million of those vehicles were EVs. While this year 10 million of those vehicles are expected to be EVs Im hearing whispers that would might even see 11 or 12 million That still leaves 18 to 20 million ICE vehicles many of which are from these Legacy automakers from the EU and the USA So it will probably be less than 50% But Chinese EVs still have room to grow in just China alone when it comes to the trade war China has just not taken the zero-sum game approach the west has taken against it… It embarrassingly has not even had to take out its big guns Well not yet
Trump said Macron must drop his "unfair" digital tax or "we’ll be taxing their wine like they’ve never seen before.” Guess who backed down. China needs to export to the rest of the world more than we need to export to them. Tariffs work.
Worst comes to worst they are stuck with a surplus of supplies that their consumers can purchase at a huge discount. Meanwhile here in the west, we are patting each other on the back on how we are teaching China a good lesson while our shelves run bare and prices are inflated to the extreme chasing what few supplies we have left. Good job.
India, Pakistan, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, Cambodia, Indonesia, Thailand, South American and African countries and many more. There is a lot of "the rest of the world." Cuba has a lot of very old fashioned cars, stuck in the fifties and sixties. Which places are going to get stuck in the twenty-twenties with a bunch of old fashioned ICE cars?
Tariffs are not normally the answer, but China are helping Russia wage war against Europe. We need to stop giving China our money. I deliberately try not to buy any Chinese products, if possible. I have a Renault Zoe, not an MG4 for this very reason 😢😢
Great video Dave.
A few points, so remember China was about the 8th poorest country in the world after WW2 and they needed all the help they could get. They were only just getting off their knees in the 80's when VW turned up.
It wasn't so much copying, the western manufactures could sell tariff free in China if they entered into a joint venture with a local company and agreed to a technology transfer. They didn't have to do this.
The German car manufactures, and I'm sure others, never produced their best technology in China. In fact you could argue they helped encourage the Chinese to develop EV's, as the stuff being sold to them was the most polluting old technology available. One great example VW made the Santana in China for almost 40 years, think they only made it for about 4 years in the west. Selling old out of date cars like this really helped spur them on to find less polluting alternatives and hence them turning to EV's. Another example is the fact that Audi's newest design concept doesn't have the 4 rings on the grill as it is so tainted there.
So VW was making 50% of its profits on 40% of its world sales in China, this clearly tells you they were making a small fortune out there selling ancient technology. I believe western brands were about 65% of the market and are now down to about 25% of an admittedly larger market now.
Interestingly less than even 5 years ago the Chinese consumer was more reluctant than us in the west to buy Chinese made products, preferring western brands. This has now changed and they can't believe how dated the western brands are, with the exception of Tesla, compared to the local stuff. To give you an idea VW has to sell a high spec ID3 for about £12,000, with superior Chinese software as the locals wouldn't put up with what we get in our ones.
Theres a channel called Inside China Auto by a Brit who does some good videos on Chinese cars and has just, at the time of posting, released one from the Guangzhou motor show.
Great analysis. My father told me in the 1960s (he was state engineer in malaya) that within 30 years the Chinese would rule the roost as they were brilliant engineers and hard workers. He was a bit out with the date but right about the outccome. Tarrifs are foolish. They will not work. Cannot see sir keith starmer grasping this fact.
I think your father was right
I remember back in the 1990s thinking this was it this was the last chance for the west to turn things around when it came to a rising China
In 1998 around mid 60s of the factories in China still had foreign ownership
By 2008 that number dropped to mid 30s
And that was before the US subprime crisis cause the shuttering of 100 thousand factories put 27 million people out of work in China. Most never went back to the factories to work
Question becomes where do you put the economic/competitive advantage one country had over the other
Definitely in the 90s the USA was dependent on China for its goods and that’s when the average westerner first started to hear about trade deficits and China holdings of US debt
EU tariffs aren’t applicable here and I believe Starmer is courting Chinese brands to set up shop in the UK providing jobs. Also a much more generally clean energy mindset and action plan than their predecessors, particularly Sunak.
@@markbennett6658
Chinese EV companies
(not Chinese bought companies like Volvo/Polestar)
sold 300k vehicles in the EU in 2023
Most people don’t know 30 million cars are sold in China every year.
Of those 8 million were EVs last year and projected 10 million EVs this year
That still leaves 20 million ICE vehicles sold in China every year
many of which are made by US and European Legacy car manufacturers
China could put the final nail in the coffin, for many of the automakers…
cite over production, national security risk, fears, threat etc etc
But then we are lucky they don’t think in zero-sum game type of ways or else they could bankrupt a lot of companies
Heck most people don’t know it’s EU multinationals whose high flying stocks are in their stock portfolios/ pensions who are making the lion share of the profits exporting their goods from China back to the EU
Inflating that EU trade deficit to China
Which btw pales in comparison to the 500 billion USD …(EU companies based within China )
make selling their goods to Chinese consumers every year
The EU is just to duuuuuum…to see China is their market
Btw if you want manufacturing to go back to Europe
You need to build the factories, build the infrastructure, give financial incentives, tax breaks, educate the workers build the educational facilities etc etc etc
Meaning all that cost money
Meaning most Europeans need to be happy to pay even more taxes and pay even more for their European made goods
So that some a Europeans can have manufacturing jobs
@markbennett6658 that's pure fantasy, the UK and the US are locked step about China, and the trouble making by US NGO,s with UK help in 2019 in Hong Kong which will never be forgotten
I have been telling people this for a long time. Businesses wanted to use the low cost manpower of China. They bacame masters and they were faster able to switch to the new technology, compared to the dinosaur businesses stuck in the way they make things. The Chinese have also become richer and so are not necessarily going to stay cheaper.
Even Tesla and Apple make many products in China.
This was a great as well as very well explained and timely.
I believe the factory out there is Tesla's most efficient.
And I think Apple tried to move some iPhone production overseas but failed.
Chinese labour lost if cost competitiveness about 20 years ago, however their factories are now, generally, the most hi-tech and competitive in the world.
HOORAY! At last, good, solid content with which I never once disagreed, even wearing my sceptical, critical appraisal hat. Listen to the criticism of yesterday's content, Dave, and take it on! MORE OF THIS STANDARD DAVE even if it means dropping the need to put something out every day. Quality is king!
“Hoisted by their own petard” comes to mind!
David, listening to you is the next best thing to listening to David Attenborough 😀
The fact of the matter is that China has been de-risking from the US and EU for at least a decade, competently and successfully.
They have invested massively and smartly in developing new markets outside of the west, e.g. their biggest trading partner is ASEAN, not the US nor the EU.
They have successfully broken into the newest and most technological advanced industries, e.g. green energy, EV, aviation, communication, space, semiconductor, quantum computing, AI, biosciences, etc. etc. China can live without the US and the west; it would be a bit painful but manageable. The US and the west sure as hell cannot live without China. Their societies are not accustomed to the notion of living smaller. Without imports from China, these societies will simply fall apart.
Great analysis and thanks for the compliment
When they went to innovate is the sight that they are derisking from the west technologically.
The writing on the wall came in the 1960s. The British Motorcycle industry dominated the world but didn't change.
Yes it’s all I the history books for all to see
Thanks for the eye opener, Dave
Best episode to date, Thank you,
China never "copies." China *learns* and *innovates.* China *improves* on what the West does.
Very illuminating and enlightening video void of the usual bias trope. But sadly there are only a handful level-headed intelligent prople like Dave around to shine brightly in the darkness of today. ❤from Indonesia
If i close my eyes, John Cleese is speaking.
In the West the fundamentals and principles that made their manufacturing and engineering powerful were readily discarded over the pursuit of short term profit and gains. The C-Suite of these companies have known for a long time what the Chinese were capable of and yet stayed the course and are now feeling the consequences - well the workers and local economies are anyway. This is NOT to say that Chinese companies can't fall into a similar trap if not careful.
Legacy autos are status symbols: status is inversely correlated with usefulness. Ice autos are pretty much useless, so as status symbols… they are perfect!❤
Great video, explaining reality. Listen and learn some facts!
Ursula von der Lying is one of the most stupid politicians in the world.
Q: Why is China such a threat? They are: A1: smarter; A2: better educated; A3: more disciplined; A4: less addicted; A5: wealthier; A6: less neurotic; A7: more agreeable; A8: healthier; oh! Did I mention “smarter?”
Nice new background dave
Very interesting video.Thank you Dave.👍👍
ayyy, someone's upping their thumbnail game 🙌😂
A good episode thank you. I do wonder when people will start to loo at other parts of the 'cycle'. If you take jobs away from people in the west, how do they afford to buy the other products? I am not saying that we need to stop the cheaper products(I don't think we could anyway), no what I am saying is that producing the products is only one part of the cycle. As humans we need to look at the complete cycle.
Can't compete why?
Buy shares in BYD and Geely. I have. There is a Brexit benefit for MG in having the London Design Centre designing British cars for SAIC, the Chinese manufacturer, to build. Trump is an isolationist - good more for the rest of the world.
What rule would have stopped the London Design Centre doing work for other countries while we were in the EU?
@@malcym3394 It's the MG Design centre - they only work for MG.
@@steverichmond7142 Still the same point - nothing in EU membership would have stopped a UK company designing for anyone in a nn-EU country. I can't see that it's a Brexit benefit.
Because the UK is not in the EU the tariffs do not apply to the UK. MG's would be far more expensive if they were subject to EU/Chinese tariffs. My point is that we get to enjoy British design on cheap(er) cars.
@@steverichmond7142 I'm not sure why you keep changing your point. I agree that, being out of the EU we're not affected by any EU tariffs on Chinese cars. But you originally said "There is a Brexit benefit for MG in having the London Design Centre designing British cars for SAIC, the Chinese manufacturer, to build." As far as I'm aware, having the London Design Centre designing British cars for SAIC has got nothing to do with tariffs on the imported vehicles. So my point remains - nothing in EU membership would have stopped a UK company designing for anyone in a non-EU country. I can't see that it's a Brexit benefit.
Anyhow, it seems there's little point in continuing the discussion other to say that I own an MG5, made by SAIC Motor (more correctly, the SAIC Motor Corporation Limited) so enjoy the cheaper prices China offers (although to me, £35k doesn't seem "cheap"), and have nothing against Chinese imports or, indeed, UK companies working for Chinese companies.
As Dave points out in his video, all we're doing is transferring our knowledge to the Chinese, further helping them acquire knowledge and understanding. As he rightly suggests, the West shot itself in the foot. Thank you Margaret Thatcher for your legacy of offshoring and de-industrialisation instead of using the North Sea Oil revenues to rebuild our national infrastructure (which slipped as a result of paying for the two World Wars) and to re-equip our manufacturing sector. We had one chance - and she gave it away in tax cuts.
And, of course, massive thanks to David Cameron and Boris Johnson for taking us out of Europe. In what has become a cliché - the only country ever to inflict trade sanctions upon itself.
There should be plenty in there to maintain a discussion for a month or two :)
First time I havw thought you got it close to right but I think we suggest we just decoupele with China altogether with China atm
As long as your happy to go back to your old Nokia, and even then it might be a struggle to find a non-Chinese battery supplier.
@@jasonmugridgeat a huge price tag
Dave take a look back to yesterdays video about the doors please, the reply I left you it's in the under attack video, cheers.
Every coubtry learned frim each other and made improvements. Startingbwith the steam engine.
China did learn from the west west overtook it, and the west can't accept this fact !
What BEVs need to survive is massive subsidies and legislation that tips the scales against I.C.E vehicles. Without those, electric vehicles are dead in the water.
What subsidies ? 😂
Minimal compared to oil subsidies.
The Chinese have not gone "all in on EVs".
It’s true they are making ICE vehicles but the home market is pretty much full EV.
@Yorkshireasaurus China is just over 50% when you include plugin Hybrids.
@@stevenjones916
In China 30 million vehicles are sold in the country every year
Last year 8 million of those vehicles were EVs. While this year 10 million of those vehicles are expected to be EVs
Im hearing whispers that would might even see 11 or 12 million
That still leaves 18 to 20 million ICE vehicles many of which are from these Legacy automakers from the EU and the USA
So it will probably be less than 50%
But Chinese EVs still have room to grow in just China alone
when it comes to the trade war
China has just not taken the zero-sum game approach the west has taken against it…
It embarrassingly has not even had to take out its big guns
Well not yet
An old man trying to be relevant.Can I ask if this guy has ever been to China?
Trump said Macron must drop his "unfair" digital tax or "we’ll be taxing their wine like they’ve never seen before.” Guess who backed down. China needs to export to the rest of the world more than we need to export to them. Tariffs work.
Worst comes to worst they are stuck with a surplus of supplies that their consumers can purchase at a huge discount. Meanwhile here in the west, we are patting each other on the back on how we are teaching China a good lesson while our shelves run bare and prices are inflated to the extreme chasing what few supplies we have left. Good job.
Asia and the rest of the world buy from China don't forget the "West " amounts to just 12.5% of the world's population
India, Pakistan, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, Cambodia, Indonesia, Thailand, South American and African countries and many more. There is a lot of "the rest of the world." Cuba has a lot of very old fashioned cars, stuck in the fifties and sixties. Which places are going to get stuck in the twenty-twenties with a bunch of old fashioned ICE cars?
Hope you don’t use one of them thar IPhones - cost will double with tariffs, but you will happily pay more💰
Tariffs are not normally the answer, but China are helping Russia wage war against Europe. We need to stop giving China our money. I deliberately try not to buy any Chinese products, if possible. I have a Renault Zoe, not an MG4 for this very reason 😢😢
America
A-Bombed the Japs to Help Europe , Do you Even know what Russ/Ukrz War is ABOUT ???
well! so does eu. but they don't tell you that hehe
Us destroyed your gas pipeline 😂😂😂 you are slave to usa
@@markrozee
U r a 🤡 ! 🤣🤣🤣
too bad renault junky car...
Bot
My inside leg measurement is 33” I bet bots don’t tell you that Charles nor can they spot that name