The Atheist Handbook to the Old Testament: Volume One (with Dr. Joshua Bowen)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- Atheists often speak about the contradictions and atrocities rampant throughout the Bible, but they often enter those conversations without all of the information. Assyriologist Dr. Joshua Bowen is author of the new book, "The Atheist Handbook to the Old Testament: Volume One" (amzn.to/3xcdVqM), and he gives prime examples of how we can know more and be better when talking about the Christian scriptures.
Dr. Josh on Twitter: @DJHammurabi1
Website: www.digitalhammurabi.com/who-...
I am still very early in my journey in moving away from Christianity and learning the truth about the bible is in many ways very sad to me because theire was so much comfort in a belief in an afterlife and in heaven. I know now that it is much more important to know the truth, rather than continue to believe a beautiful lie because that lie diminishes and cheapens this life. Thank you for all that you do Seth and thank you Dr. Josh
As you travel this life, know that your search is supported by those of us who also love knowing “ as few false things and as many true things” as possible.
Reading the Bible gave me cognitive dissonance.
@@JamesRichardWiley If it didn't create that in people then no one would be christian after 130 CE. When the main man himself, the messiah, fails in his ultimate prediction that everybody believed in back then(so no "we must have interpenetrated it wrong" argument works because the original Christians believed in it).
So dont be hard on yourself. It's more insane that a failed doomsday cult can become a massive religion with followers under millennials. Shows us how illogical we humans really are.
It’s scary at first, but as you go further and further down the rabbit hole, it’s less and less scary as time goes. Good for you for beginning the journey, I’d say that’s like 90% of the battle in my opinion!
@@katiedotson704 thank you
It's impressive that both Seth and Josh were once steeped in evangelical Christian fundamentalism and were able to break through the intense brainwashing. Volumes of credibility. I love Josh's demeanor-- calm, thoughtful, kind, intelligent, well-spoken.
There are millions of adults who were indoctrinated and brainwashed as children, who are now anywhere from 30 to 90+ years old, who got interested in the bible as a book and studied its history and the history of the religions it promoted...and then... realized it was a book written by men who had various religious, personal and political reasons for writing it... and they became non believers, or rather, reverted to their natural state of non belief.
They also discovered that whatever god is, is not or might be, it is not love. Contemporary Christian theology sells the religion on that basis; no study is needed to join the religion. Christians do not want possible converts reading it... for a very good reason.
@@jeanettecook1088 Well said!
@@jeanettecook1088 I'm in my 70s, raised Baptist, knew very early Yahweh didn't much like children and appeared to hate women and loved the smell of burning flesh (from an awful lot of innocent animals and the occasional human). But of course Jesus loves little children and had all those animals in the creche. When I learned to read I found it even worse. But I studied many religions and mythologies before realizing (and admitting) that I was/am atheist with a fascination for the subject and psychology/sociology. I can understand the desire to outsource certain experiences and claim "supernatural" help, but all evidence points to our own minds being the origin. Fundamentalism is the source of hatred and war, authoritarianism and slavery. I am so glad there is so much atheist and academic content on TH-cam now, and in libraries; kids now are not as isolated as I was.
@@kathryngeeslin9509 ....I was touched by your comment. I wonder that children of that time, indoctrinated as we were, don't have our own "me too" movement. I'm glad you've recovered, and frankly, glad that I have too. I hope everyone does. 👏🏞
And he is quite good looking.
This channel deserves an award!🏆
Yes, all of guests in this channel are excellent.
@@TranNguyenVungLay i think so.
the audience deserves an award!
Truly! As does the host, a man doing God's work the way I see things. Bwtfdik. He rocks, plain and simple.
Thank goodness for these atheist channels … life changing.
I read the bible at least a few dozen times, memorized quite a lot of it, was in church school and church most of my childhood and even found many contradictions. I was in my early thirties before I mentally left the church, and left physically a year later. Now 15 years later it still seems so real to me, like I'll never get away from feeling it's true even though I reject it intellectually. My spouse still accepts it, but isn't militant about it and it hasn't messed up our relationship. I'm so glad my 2 children were under 10 when we stopped going to church and they both are free thinkers now as young adults.
i had trouble getting past page one.
@@HarryNicNicholas The difference being (I assume) that they were indoctrinated and you weren't. They got sent to a private church school.
Trad. Spanish
Leí la Biblia al menos unas pocas docenas de veces, memoricé bastante, estuve en la escuela de la iglesia y en la iglesia la mayor parte de mi infancia e incluso encontré muchas contradicciones. Tenía poco más de treinta años antes de dejar mentalmente la iglesia y me fui físicamente un año después. Ahora, 15 años después, todavía me parece tan real, como si nunca pudiera dejar de sentir que es verdad aunque lo rechace intelectualmente. Mi cónyuge todavía lo acepta, pero no es militante al respecto y no ha arruinado nuestra relación. Estoy muy contenta de que mis 2 hijos tenían menos de 10 años cuando dejamos de ir a la iglesia y ahora ambos son libres pensadores como adultos jóvenes.
Thank y'all for allowing your children to be free thinkers.
It's true, even as I've become an atheist I still think: how cool must it be to believe that there is someone up there who is always watching you, loves you unconditionally, and intervenes on your behalf. How awesome would it be if there really were a God. Not the Christian God but a god.
But those feelings are a part of human nature, and show us how easy it would be to invent a God.
It was kind of like when kids on the playground talk about who's dad is the strongest. "My god is stronger than your god" "Nuh uh, my god could beat up your god"
Nuh uh, my dad could beat Bruce Lee.
I don't know, it's more like "Ha! We won the battle! That just shows that our god is stronger than your god!"
DOOM Guy has entered the chat.
major difference is, whether their dad exist or not can be falsifiable.
yep. my god puts away vodka like there's no tomorrow, christianity is for girls.
The idea of total allegence to one god is the blueprint for slavery.
It's like teaching you how to brainwash yourself. That's totalitarian control.
No secret why religious authorities have been against expansive literacy and a more democratic politics from the very beginning!
Create an imaginary god.
Submit to anything spoken by this god.
Deny that you are doing this.
Register to vote and become a member of a ruling body.
Just changing one master for another doesn't seem too be a great deal. Sort of like having your contract sold too a completely different company.
you should always rebel against authority, question it at the very least.
I love Dr.Josh.He is so informative and thoughtful.
I seriously will be picking up this book. I can’t wait to learn more about this ancient religion I grew up with. I’m very shocked that a biblical scholar is so openly atheist, but it’s extremely refreshing to hear. I love how patient he was with the callers too. I can see why you keep having him on the show 🖤
You might also want to check out books and videos on YT of Dr. Bart Ehrman. He is a professor of religion at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill who went to Princeton Theological Seminary as an evangelical Christian and came out as an agnostic/atheist, depending on how you define the terms. I suspect a lot of pastors who attended seminary aren't really believers.
Don’t remember if they mentioned it at the beginning but he also has a YT channel called Digital Hamurabi (or something like that)
i never needed a book on how to be a better atheist, there's no god and that's the end of it, if someone wants to argue with me there is a god, i have plenty of come-backs, i don't need apologists...
@@HarryNicNicholas | “I don’t need apologists” would be something a theist disguised as atheist would say:
- preventing the atheist from learning more actual facts
- thinking atheism is another religion and calling this apologetics
I also have a host of come-backs, but meme like come-backs won’t always cut it. Among the more knowlegable theists you’ll quicly be labled as “low hanging fruit” and ignored/laughed at/pitied/prayed for/… . You’ll accomplish nothing except gained some frustration.
A little knowledge has never hurt anyone and this isn’t atheist apologetics. It’s the correct version of history which Christianity (among others) tried to wash away through thousands of years of white-washing historical facts.
@@GapWim You sound like a fundamentalist atheist.
Dr Josh is so awesome! His humility make it super easy to listen to him.
As in ancient times, people today pick their theology and church from a cafeteria with thousands of choices, even if they all call themselves Christian. You have to feel comfortable and get the right goose bumps. It’s a consumer issue.
another reason to disbelieve in religion, you don't get to pick which god is the real one, it's not up to you which doctrine suits you best.
Not only GQ cover models..... both have beautiful voices!
Hell no Bowens voice drives me crazy I could barely get threw this.
Great content, totally engaging. "God" made in mans image. How can anyone study this stuff & not become an atheist !?!
Isn’t it man was made in gods image? Whatever, what a joke.
@@wadeinn463 So the book says. Yet most nonbelievers see Yahweh and most other gods as made in man's image. Yahweh in fact seems a blueprint for an abusive parent or partner, made up by men who wanted to abuse their children and many dedicated wives. Many scholars base such gods on primitive needs for the biggest baddest "daddy/chief" in the area. Especially for war gods.
Most of them don't and haven't studied it.
Ill teach u
@@djfine100 lol
Appreciate your content Seth! It has inspired me to make my own platform.. Thankful for everything you do!❤️
'It's very difficult not to mock Christians when I talk to them.'
Yeah, That's why I will not talk about religion with them. It's almost a waste of time.
I'm beginning to think that Bible believers are by definition, non thinkers.
As a non thinker you simply accept what is written because it is easier than doing your own research.
"so, you believe in pixies"
"no, i believe in the almighty"
"yeah, that's what i said, the almighty pixie"
Lazarus, the disciple whom Jesus loved, raised from the dead, not mentioned in any of the first three gospels, RED FLAG! Christian doesn't flinch. Atheist says fk it I give up.
Talking to a Christian is like yelling at the walls of Jericho but the don't fall... you know, like how reality works.
_It's almost a waste of time_
Only if you're impatient, requiring an answer _right now._ If you discuss to find out truth, it's never a 'waste of time,' even if you end still disagreeing.
BTW, Because I am my brother's dogs keeper, I thought I should inform you that Maggie the skeptic (and Jango the howlengelical and Samantha the apawtheist) enjoyed hearing this playback. My cats, Sagan & Nyx, however, are fed up with dealing with dog-ma.
I don't know why but I absolutely love seeing video streams rather than only audio streams even though half the time I'm not watching.
Thank you Seth and Dr Josh … once again very interesting. 👍
Seth, Dr Bowen, thank you so much for this video. It is so much more helpful than to simply say "Oh, look at how stupid and contradictory Genesis is" and to have actual citable sources for why each part of the Bible actually says what it does, rather than 'a reimagining'.
I asked for this book for Father's Day 🤞
So did my dad!
This book should be a trip...I gotta get it! I'm so addicted to ALL the Atheists authors books...I've purchased many of them and STILL want more! There's absolutely no end to this rabbit hole.
Also, try studying other religions - it gets really interesting and will affirm there is no Yahweh except via another myth narrative.
I vacillate between whether I should just be an “unconvinced” atheist, or whether I should know all the historical minutiae that makes Christianity (and others) the destructive nonsense it is. Yes, it is a rabbit hole, and while many times I learn just for the interest of discovery, at other times I get obsessed because of the clearly destructive ability of the manipulators who use this weapon to keep the non-ruling classes subjugated.
If you only read one thing you'll only be able to come to one conclusion. There's counter arguments/points and which you may never actually deal with. So your beliefs/opinions may not be as solidly based as you believe.
I listen to atheist TH-camrs as well as Christian TH-camrs. As your knowledge increases you see patterns and can distinguish good logic from poor reasoning. Maybe you'll find some atheist writers not as convincing or evidentiary as you now think. Yes I'm a Christian. I just want to encourage you to see both sides of the equation.
I was an atheist until I came to faith. It's not as simple as in the process of growing up you lose your faith as you get educated and more mature or that only dumb people believe in G-d. Atheist Education within a set worldview doesn't mean an alternative explanation isn't possible.
The Old Testament is a complicated book. Don't be fooled by interpretations which don't take into consideration of culture (for example numbers were symbolic and often round, sometimes different numbers reflected different counting strategies (just men or everyone etc). The Bible sometimes is descriptive (this and that happened) and other times prescriptive (giving theological insights - progressive revelation). What kind of slavery did the Old Testament condone - African type slavery or indentured servitude? Questions like this changes interpretations and meaning.
@@victorjvanderwoude3102you realize that atheists spend an immense amount of time studying. None that I know have “just ready one thing”. I, personally, consume probably 40-50 Hours a week consuming information about whether there is a god/gods. I was a theist until I was 35 or 36.
@@ajstutz69 Information isn't necessarily the end all be all. It's the people you trust much more than the information itself. If you have a negative view on history concerning the Bible than you can easily read grand theories about how it's put together by multiple people or derived from other cultures (stolen practices) or apart of a social-anthropological model with reasons it exist to protect a particular culture from whatever and thereby dismantling why god or gods exist as a unnecessary framework for an educated and smart people.
If you believe Evolution is proven beyond doubt than of course your going to go that route to believe Naturalism. Your certainly going to be supported in your atheist beliefs in wider society and especially University. You can spend your whole reading books and socializing with people who'll rub your back and say good job. Atheist Humanism will look to everyone's good unless it restricts behaviours (so hate religion). New Atheism books and video podcaster and debates will leave you with multiple lifetimes of information etc.
The message is clear: Christianity is stupid and individual Christians are ignorant and unlearned! If they got a real education they wouldn't hold to myths and such hog wash. It's much easier to disbelieve than believe in this world
Yet!
I don't know the type of "theist" you were. If you were apart of the JW's or Mormon or Christian Science or a liberal church or a Catholic (I'm not placing them as a cult but a group with some issues) or Muslim or Jewish etc or a weird cultic like church or whatever. Maybe you were a Baptist or an independent church. I don't have a starting point so I'm at a bit at a lose on the direction of the conversation.
I can't read your mind and don't know the deep and sincerity of your belief system or was it social or family thing until you didn't have to go or don't believe because your now around different people with more fun attitudes or desires. I can't look over your shoulders and determine if you actually understand the Bible (if you were a Christian) or had a experience.
I don't know if you had an experience with the Holy Spirit. I don't know if you bought into some sham message concerning wealth and the property gospel. Maybe you found out your religious leader was a monster or sexually assaulted you or some else. Maybe it all felt superficial - I don't know. Your extensive study means your unhappy with your decision or want to bolster your new decision or want to tackle your former faith. Maybe your studying for a Masters or something else. To many possibilities inwhich disappointment leads to a different life.
The best I can is tell you my story.
I was an atheist until about twenty three. Came to faith through the witness of others into orthodox christianity. My first bump was reading two books. The first was by the evangelistic who worked with Billy Graham than drifted to liberalism and finally agnosticism. He had a mystical experience which brought him to faith and a mystical experience that lead him to agnosticism. I overcome the book fairly quickly as: he never had faith in a traditional sense related to the Truth in scripture but an experience lead thing. His talent for speaking and writing lead to a high leadership position but he wasn't tied to a strong biblical foundation for his faith. A case of talent driving a person into leadership with a superficial faith destroyed by fainting spell on a walk in the woods.
The second book was on history and Christianity was a phenomenon not viewed as truth and had a flat earth type position atheists hold for religion - no discernment just a foot note type incidental thing of history value kinda. It again took some time to think through what I believed and why. I simply believe the Bible as history and knew a relationship with G-d is possible and real.
I than went to Bible college. It wasn't a affirming situation. Kids there to gets easy credits, teachers with conflicting theological positions (one a heretic). I had to really learn what I believed and why. I learned hermeneutics, exegesis, Missions and theology. I wasn't into Neo- orthodoxy but fundamental and biblically based. I don't particularly want to follow a philosophical position inwhich the Bible doesn't have to be a historical nature (referring to Neo-orthodoxy).
It wasn't an affirming experience but my faith isn't built on other people's opinions but on what the Bible says for itself. I truly believe in Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, that the Bible contains real history, and that it's possible to experience a relationship with G-d. On that basic foundation, G-d shines through.
No I don't live under a rock or missed the arguments of the New Atheism or Judaism against Christianity or Muslims against Christianity or the countless books and other materials which say I'm wrong. It come down to worldview and who you trust. I believe the supernatural is possible because G-d is real, that Jesus life and miracles are a real historical fact, that despite societies disregard and even hatred of Christianity - it provides the best evidence for its worldview. I've read countless deconversion stories and conversion stories and a fair amount of rants to why Christianity isn't true but never heard anything that's effected my faith.
I don't know if you care or if this has any meaning to you but it is what it is.
So happy to see Seth again......and his most interesting guest, Dr. Josh....... Great show!!!
Thank you, Seth, for introducing Dr. Joshua Bowen. I just purchased his book and am looking forward to reading it.
I think Hitchens arguments against bible prophecy are really good
I have bought the book, and I love both your work, Seth, and Dr. Josh's. I'm a longtime subscriber to both of your channels and FB pages. Keep up the great work!
Dr. Josh and Meghan Lewis are rockstars! I binged everything on Digital Hammurabi in a week when I first found them through MythVision Podcast! Hope the babies are well! Cheers!
Thanks for this presentation! Great guest & eloquent!
👍❤️
Religious is a poisonous for humanity
I just love this show and thanks too for Dr Josh. Really excellent show, you have helped us all escape so thanks. Very best Gray.
Just purchased your book josh! Can’t wait to read it!!!!✌️
This was awesome! Listening on my commute & loving it. Great interview!☺
Genesis' two lights? The light from the moon is a reflection of light from the sun. Same light. I don't think the light from the stars is deserves consideration here - except from those who believe that God is light.
What a great duo you guys make. Thanks, that was really interesting.
The part about the analogy between eminem using "I love rock n' roll" as source material to rework the song as analogous to some of the old testament stories was very eye opening for me. It helped me make sense of why there are many ancient stories from different cultures that sound the same.
@@NSOcarth then what is "C"? There are many creation stories with even more different ways it was formed. Your assumption that I fell* for the fallacy tells me that you believe in a particular creation story. Is what you are saying something akin to playing a game of telephone?
"I Love Rock 'n' Roll" was a huge hit for Joan Jett in 1981, but it was a cover (fittingly), originally by The Arrows in 1975.
The Arrows created it, but Joan Jett _made_ it. Hahaha.
What's your point?
@@C1rce Addressing a minor mistake. Don't get defensive, please.
@@delusionnnnn Look who's talking. 🤣
@@MultiCappie No, no, they got a point. It's important to know the origins, not just the "as made famous by" stuff.
After listening to the podcast I had to order the book. Thanks for the link. Looking forward to reading it.
Just downloaded and started listening to this book, thanks for this podcast pointing me to this book. Really good narration too Seth.
Sold! I bought mine!
Y'all killed this interview! 😉
Thanks everyone!
I love this content. Really good job from host and guest. I've learned a lot. Thank you so much!
I have a book called An Atheist's Critique of the Bible. It did quite well on your old atheist forum. I've been rewriting it for years. I'm finally just about ready to release it... and this book comes out... with a similar name... written by a doctor... and promoted by all major atheists. Fantastic. 👍
It kinda feels like if I spent my entire life on an original story about an evil necklace that has to be destroyed in the fires of Mt. Gloom, but can only be taken there by a short race of creatures called Knobbits, specifically a Knobbit named Fredo Braggins... and a month before I finished it LOTR was published.
There is life after Christianity!
I am a recovered fundamentalist Christian. I had a Road to Damascus conversion.
As a young man I was a student of the Bible. I interpreted the Bible literally. I have worked within Christian organizations.
What started my journey out of the faith of my youth was I noticed that, generally speaking, there was no difference between Christians and other humans. I met a non-Christian man whose life I would love to emulate. The critique of the Bible followed later.
Today, I identify as an agnostic. Gnosis mean knowing and ag means not. Therefore, I am one who does not know. I find this a very good place to be. If you know everything, there is nothing left to learn. If you don't know the universe is open to you. Learning becomes a joy. Follow your joy.
I do believe in a Universal Consciousness. It is with me and within me every day. I call It OM and converse with It often.
As they say in NDEs, Walk towards the light.
Good luck. 🤔
Fascinating interview. Thanks so much to both of you. I read the Kindle version of the book and I found that fascinating as well. Didn’t read it so much to get ammunition in arguments with theists as just for my own information about where those stories in the Bible came from. And I really appreciate your analogies to clarify the scholarship and analysis that go into understanding these old texts. I’ve always found the Bible to be dreadfully boring reading but reading the history of that region and its relationship to the subset of stories in the Bible made it much more compelling and clear.
Best reason to read it is gor your own knowledge. Reading it for ammunition to argue with others only makes self-made know it alls...so they think!
Good Interview. When Dr. Josh talks about how the Assyrians took the story of Enuma Elisha and made it about their deity Ashur instead of Marduk, and then it gets incorporated into the book of Genesis reminded me of Karen Armstrong's book "The Battle for God". Mankind has been battling over their deities ad infinitum with no end in sight.
This is brilliant! And so timely!!! Thank you! I am ordering the book now!!
That there is a nation wherein the Old Testament even has any relevance is an astonishing phenomenon and quite terrifying for the majority of people outside of the colonies.
As a big-picture person I overlooked many inconsistencies in the bible but the questions were building up. Then one day I saw in a documentary, a guy demolish his house because there was a patch of damp mould in a downstairs room. He actually read out the verses in Leviticus which prescribe demolition. At that moment I just thought ok the game is up and faced the mountain of ludicrousness and I was an atheist.
Congratulations.
Catholicism is clearly polytheistic. Besides the Trinity, there’s the Mother of God, Mary, St. Joseph and myriad other saints to whom one prays for intercession or specific favors. Today is St Anthony’s Day. He is specialized in finding you a spouse, as well as looking after animals. Churches dedicated to any particular saint fill up on that saint’s day with people seeking a blessing of that specialty.
Except catholics dont deem them to be gods or worship them.
@@jaclo3112 Catholics pray to specific saints to solve problems (find lost keys or whatever). There are altars to different saints in the churches. In medieval times, a saint's (supposed) body parts (relics) could (supposedly) cure disease. The pantheon of saints substituted the Roman pantheon of gods, even if their place isn't exactly equal.
@@AnexoRialto and yet they are not deemed to be gods and neither are they worshipped.
It’s so fascinating how the saints swapped out the old gods. For example, instead of praying to Poseidon if you’re on sea for good weather, you pray to a specific sea saint now lol.
@@jaclo3112 nor are they real.
Just bought the book, looking forward to reading it
I love how Seth’s radio style comes through in these discussions
Bravo Doctor Josh! Belated congratulations to you and your lovely wife Megan on the recent additions to your family!
A good talk Dr Josh and Seth.
Definitely informative thanks 💙
Great episode!!!
Great discussion Thank you 😊
You know we were raised from the time we could walk to believe in this fantasy. But you know eventually people have got to grow up they will not let the fantasy go it's like believing in Superman forever and ever
It's funny how the more educated you become on the subject the more likely you are to become an atheist. I too studied theology in both grade school and high school and served as an alter boy for 8 years. I went to a catholic grade school and a Jesuit High School and to University were I got more into religious studies and received a well-rounded education and found that none of the proposed religions are worthy of outright belief nor blind faith.
That sounds like my journey. The crucial break for me was doing a dissertation on Joseph Campbell. If all hero myths and creation stories are similar, they must all come from our own minds.
That's why all dictators first target the smart and intelectual ones. Knowledge is danger in the eyes of a tyrants.
That's ironic. The more educated I've become the more convinced of my faith I am. I've been a Christian for about 40 years.
@@victorjvanderwoude3102
That's ok!
Not everyone has the sense to recognize the difference between; superstition & reality
@@Alulim-Eridu
You'd have to define what "reality" is - your just assuming your perception of "reality" is the correct one. You hopefully know that perception is based on worldview (the base assumptions you hold to interpret information, actions and behaviours). No one is without a worldview and somehow stands above the squalid mass. To think so is a type of arrogance. The best anyone can do is have reasonable arguments and reasons for their beliefs. To set up some artificial cognitive dissonance type statement is lazy and dismissive.
You'd have to define "superstition". If you were talking about belief in bigfoot, space aliens, ghosts etc or some such wishy-washy type of hippy crystal thing I might very well agree. Vague spirituality is a feeling based la la land.
You however are probably referring to religion or more exactly the belief in G-d. If we're limited to human perception alone nothing is reality unless it stands in front of your face (naturalism). An atheist can be inconsistent with that stand (needing personal experience) and thereby accept some authority (science) for things beyond their capacity to know, test, or experience. The question becomes: first is there something more than the "natural" as defined in naturalism and secondly can science itself quantify or dismiss something that isn't "natural" (really the term natural in itself is misleading because it's limited by human limitations and standards not something that may has no limits as it's "natural" range).
If G-d didn't make Himself known in time and space no one could have any knowledge of G-d except the general idea that creation itself points in that direction. So the real issue isn't "superstition verses reality" but historical evidence verses naturalism. Are our perceptual limitations sufficient to dismiss the biblical narrative. Is it true G-d make Himself known in time and space.
I'm not advocating for "superstitions" as if ever religion is somehow above logic and reason. I could explain why Hinduism lacks any foundation in reality (everything is other - it has logic but it's philosophical not based on any physical reality like history everything happens in a higher invisible realm). Or, why Mormonism and JW's (Jehovah Witnesses) lack any credible foundation for their beliefs. The point being for me is does Christianity have a valid claim and is the biblical narrative accurate historically. The difference between me and an atheist is I'm willing to consider that possibility while an atheist can't see beyond what they already know or assume to be true.
Great talk. God bless the one-click-buy function for e-books.
I got this book. It's really easy to read & very informative. Highly recommend it. 👌
It's pretty much a certainty that Akhenaten the Egyptian Pharaoh independently created monotheism in a form of sun worship and had all the temples to the other Egyptian Gods closed.
For this he was terribly unpopular, and after dying or fleeing the Egyptians tried to erase him from history. Those loyal to Akhenaten had to leave, today we call them Ancient Israel.
It's not easy to reveal under all the mythology but the Golden Calf was a zodiac thing, bulls were big in the age of Taurus, then came Rams for Aries, then around 10ad came the age of Pisces, hence that damned Christian fish symbolism with 12 disciples etc.
Too much symbolism, its all mystical woo.
Completely agree with Akhenaten. His follows would likely have been condemned to exile or slavery after his passing. Slaves in Egypt sound familiar?
Doh! Interesting, now you have forced my intuitive hand for information…
Akhenaten might have been the first to PUBLICALLY propose the one god idea. But the underlying myths of the virgin birth, the flood, and various other religious myths are far older than any
historian could determine.
Archeologists and anthropologists are still grappling with that.
Proverbs 29:19-21. Beat your slaves if you want them to obey. A servant pampered from youth will turn out to be insolent.
"Beat your kid or he'll become a fuck up"
Seth Andrew's paraphrasing bible
@@cullenarthur8879 according to proverbs 13:24, that is a way to prove that you don’t hate your son {ben}
@@scienceexplains302 I thought it was pretty humorous myself, but thanks for the information. Strange way to show love.
@@NSOcarth Are we reading the same book? Proverbs 8:32-36 says nothing like that. It basically says Obey Me. You are inserting modern ideas that were not expressed in the text.
P 29:15 the rod and reproof give wisdom. (Beating children makes them wise 🤢 )
Proverb 29:91-21 does not have the word “empty”. It says words aren’t enough.
@@NSOcarth You seem -to- reasonable in how you would treat people.
The Bible isn’t, by modern standards. Your morals are better than the Bible’s.
Excellet interview, I learn more and more as I check in to these interviews. Thanks, Seth.
Great show. Dr. Josh & Dr Wife rock
Why is the presupposition always that God is good? Why isn't God bad and we need to obey a cruel God? Seems that position is better supported by the Bible.
there is no reason that god hasn't a preference for atheists and religions are created to sort out the sycophants from thr free thinkers. people should be really worried over what atheist hell is going to be like.
Their explanation is that god is good by definition, therefore anything that god does or demands is good by definition. Yeah, pretty much presupposition crap.
So, Dr. Bowen studied the Semitic languages. That is pretty impressive. There are still speakers of Aramaic and Assyrian, etc. but it seems very much like any of the older established languages that have died or are dying like those of the North American First Peoples' languages. We only have a little over 6,000 original languages still spoken in the world now after the extraordinary number of languages originally.
This was a good show. Very interested in the book.
Thanks, this was super informative
13:01 “oh my god, I’m an atheist!”
🎉 Congratulations.
That sort of happened to me, when I was studying religion and looking for what was right, for any underlying truth or reality beneath all our religions, and realized I was most drawn to those with strong atheist threads and symbolic deities... oops... I was an atheist and had been for some time... maybe with some pantheist feelings but my beliefs were atheist. Still fascinated by religion/mythology/psychology/sociology/neurology etc. But hardly looking for a God/dess.
Im an atheist to, swear to god. Lol, couldn't help it
Um, the "context" of the story of the destruction of the Amalekites in 1 Samuel is that the ancestors of the Amalekites got in the way of the Hebrews exodus from Egypt in the book of Exodus. At the time, God ordered the Hebrews to completely destroy the Amalekites, and wipe them out. Which they supposedly did.
Only to apparently be reborn, and so generations later, when the Hebrews encountered the resurrected Amalekites, God said, "Remember how their ancestors tried to prevent your ancestors from leaving Egypt? (although there is no indication that they actually did anything but tried to defend themselves as the Hebrews came wandering into the land of Amalek) Yeah, so wipe them out because of that."
So if Christians are responding to the story of the destruction of the Amalekites in 1 Samuel by asking, "Do you know the context?" the simple response is, "Do you?"
There is NOTHING in the context of that story that is redeeming to God or the Hebrews.
"We failed to wipe them out, let's try it again!"
I like that there is no bashing here, just straight up info
Amazing content!
“If you want to know what Christians believe, remember that they buy a shitload more copies of the Old Testament than the New.”
- quoting the mother of June Osborne, The Handmaid's Tale (television series available on Hulu)
Is this quote flipped?
@@Iamwrongbut No. June's mother said the Old Testament was of more interest to believers than the New.
Season 4, Episode 10.
@@krisaaron5771 interesting. Would’ve thought it was the other way around
It seems to me that the Holy Bible, when sold, almost always includes both Old and New Testaments.
@@albertgainsworth I agree, but there are many “pocket” new testaments that missionaries give out, and even pocket Gospel of Johns. I think the quote above may have to do with the dystopian nature of the show mentioned.
Ex christians are some of the best people. They embraced the idea of thinking for themselves, but held onto the kindness that they had from when they were believers. Did their best to hold onto the good and let go of the bad.
This is where I'm pretty confident im about to get to. I'm keeping all the best qualities about it and myself from my days of strongest belief, because I can still recognize objective good without an authority. I'm pretty new to this side of the argument and I'm glad I looked further
@@anotherguyonthepc5 Absolutely!
Love the way Dr Josh stays quiet while the others have something to say...
Great presentation
Having a selective moral standard is what the religious are well known for.
@@e1ay3dme12
You know what I mean by selective standards. And it has nothing too do with the 20th century wars.
Blue lives matter, until they get in the way.
You can follow any god, as long as it is ours.
We support the military, as long as they don't get woke.
We hate immigrants, unless they will work for peanuts.
We protect property rights, just not yours.
@@e1ay3dme12
Yet materialism is the system we have all embraced with open eyes. Even the most religious.
And about lemmings. Have you seen the mega churches ?
Have you seen Trump's rallies ?
Have you seen the right openly defending the rich ?
Did you miss Jan 6 ?
Trump could lead them out into the desert too die and they would follow.
Christianity and Islam both have the same goal, social control. But, the Overton window for the Christians was closed by social progress over the generations.
@@e1ay3dme12
Like you have room too talk.
The Reagan foundation, Hillsdale College, Jordan Peterson and Mark Steyn !?!? Oh, my god !!!!!
@@e1ay3dme12
Jesus Christ ! Most of the freedoms you have are because of liberal movements. 😠
Societies mature over time. Attitudes change.
Its the way it has always been.
Even religion has had too except the reality of change with the times or be rejected.
Making them far more liberal than they were even 100 yrs ago. And a 1000 miles from our
Puritan roots.
And the 'useful idiots' seem too be the ones in prosperity churches and Trump rallies.
@Gary Allen
Sniping, cut and paste snark & third wheeling. Oh, and white-knighting for another man. They teach you that last one in beta-school?
Quite the skill set you got there.
*Fascinating!*
Oh, and Josh is fantastic as always. And Seth is pretty good too.
Holy shit! He went to Liberty. My respect just skyrocketed!! This is a fascinating guest. Esp. for those of us who have a degree in theology.
You have a degree in theology and you just said "holy shit"?
Yahweh is a man made character that appears in Hebrew literature but chooses to remain hidden if you try to arrange a meeting.
Remaining hidden is part of the mystique that believers love to brag about to non believers.
I read somewhere Yahweh used to be an Israelite god of war whose believers eventually overtook the pantheon and made him the only god
@@legion999 Not Israelite, but Sumerian.
@@legion999
The Israelite religion evolved out of the Canaanite religion. *YHWH/Yahweh was some minor deity from the southern Levant who over time took on the imagery and attributes of the older mythical Canaanite deities El and Baal.* He only became the one "true" god when some Yahweh only Israelites pushed that agenda.
Dr Christine Hayes who lectures on the Hebrew Bible at Yale University outlines this in lecture 7 from 30:00 minutes onwards. Also lecture 8 from 12:00 to 19:00 minutes.
th-cam.com/video/h_UmuEBmS5k/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/kS17dLuTPd0/w-d-xo.html
Also, inscriptions were found in the form of blessings, referencing *"Yahweh and his Asherah."* Asherah was originally the wife of the Canaanite deity El, so the merging of Yahweh with El is obvious.
www.seeker.com/amphtml/gods-wife-edited-out-of-the-bible-almost-1766083399.html
*The Canaanite pantheon was conceived as a divine clan, headed by the supreme god El; the gods collectively made up the elohim. Through the centuries, the pantheon of Canaanite gods evolved, so that El and Asherah were more important in earlier times, while Baal and his consorts came to fore in later years.*
*Asherah-early semitic Mother goddess, "Lady of the sea," *consort of El*, also called Athirat,**the mother of 70 gods***
((Inscriptions were found in the form of blessings, referencing *"Yahweh and his Asherah."* Asherah was originally the wife of El according to the older Ugaritic/Canaanite texts. Baal was one of their sons))
*El-the chief deity, god of the sky, father of many lesser gods (including Baal) and ruler of the divine assembly, also worshiped by the Israelites*
*El Elyon-Special title of El as "God most High"*
The Book of Genesis itself describes the patriarch Abraham as a worshiper of El-also called El Shaddai and *El Elyon-building altars, offering sacrifices, and paying tithes to him.*
*Before the rise of Israel, Asherah was the wife of El, the head god of the Canaanite pantheon. According to the archeological evidence, the people who became Israelites were mostly native Canaanites who settled in the hills of what is now the West Bank, while it seems that small but influential groups also migrated there from the south in the Midian (in and around the Araba Valley in Sinai).* As the Bible itself testifies, that is where Yahweh veneration appears to have originated, and, in a process that in this respect resonates with the Moses story, *the migrants introduced Yahweh to the native Canaanites who were becoming Israelites.* **Over time, El declined and merged into Yahweh. As part of that process, Yahweh inherited Asherah from El as his wife.**
*Many of these features of the god El will sound remarkably familiar to the astute reader of the Hebrew Bible because of their application to YHWH, the god of Israel.* The Ugaritic corpus, which *PRE-DATES* the vast majority of the writings of the Hebrew Bible *by at least several centuries,* is perhaps the most illuminating body of literature for the study of the Hebrew Bible because of its close thematic, linguistic, and stylistic connections to that corpus. Furthermore, the Ugaritic texts are the only texts from the ancient world that give us direct, native insight into the religious worldview of a society that worshiped many of the gods polemicized against in the Hebrew Bible, and most especially the god Baal and the goddess Asherah (Ugaritic Athirat). *In this case we are able to see that the ancient Israelites, as disclosed through the Hebrew Bible, appropriated a number of terms, themes, and titles from the god El in their portrayals of YHWH.*
In contrast, there is no significant evidence that El was imagined as a warrior god like YHWH or Baal. **Moreover, like Baal, but entirely unlike El, YHWH is frequently associated with storm imagery.**
Additionally, in much Israelite religious practice throughout the monarchic period, *YHWH had a divine consort, the goddess Asherah ((originally the wife of El according to the older Ugaritic/Canaanite texts)), the Hebrew equivalent of Ugaritic Athirat.[11]*
When the *Most High [Hebrew: Elyon]* gave to the nations their inheritance, When he separated the children of men [Hebrew: Adam], He set the bounds of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. (Deuteronomy 32:8 , ASV)
*According to the above passage, Elyon (title for El as "God Most High") (by the way, if you didn’t notice, this is not Yahweh) divided up the nations and set boundaries (borders) around them. These nations were "numbered" according to the "sons of Elohim."* Genesis chapter 10, commonly referred to as the "Table of Nations," lists the nations descended from Noah through his three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth. The total number of nations in this list is *seventy.* *((Refer back to my previous post where it states Asherah is the mother of 70 gods and wife of El))*
The ancient city of Ugarit was discovered in 1928 in Syria. The height of the Ugaritic civilization was around the 12th Century BCE making them contemporaries with the Israelites. Also, the religion and language of the Ugarit people are very similar to that of the Israelites. Excavations of the site revealed an ancient library filled with clay tablets. *One such tablet states that El Elyon had seventy sons (the Elim) and each son was allocated to a specific people ((El and Asherah had 70 sons)). Many of these sons of El are mentioned by name, including El of Shaddai and El of Beriyt.*
*Can you see the close parallels between Deuteronomy 32:8, Genesis 10 and the Ugarit tablets? According to these sources, Elyon divided up all the nations into* **seventy** *nations ((El and Asherah had 70 sons)), one for each of his sons (Elim). Not a very monotheistic view of Elohim is it?*
When the *Most High (’elyôn)* gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated humanity, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of divine beings. For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.
There are two points to take away from this passage. First, the passage presents an apparently older mythic theme that describes when the divine beings, that is each deity in the divine counsel, were assigned and allotted their own nation. *Israel was the nation that Yahweh received. Second, Yahweh received his divine portion, Israel, through an action initiated by the god El, here identifiable through his epithet “the Most High.” In other words, the passage depicts two gods: one, the Most High (El), is seen as assigning nations to the divine beings or gods (the Hebrew word is elohim, plural “gods”) in his council; the other, Yahweh, is depicted as receiving from the first god, the Most High, his particular allotment, namely the people of Israel.* ((Here Yahweh is subordinate to El))
Similarly, in another older tradition now preserved in Numbers 21:29, the god Chemosh is assigned to the people of Moab.
*Other biblical passages reaffirm this archaic view of Yahweh as a god in El’s council. Psalm 82:1 speaks of the “assembly of El,” Psalm 29:1 enjoins “the sons of El” to worship Yahweh, and Psalm 89:6-7 lists Yahweh among El’s divine council.* ((Yahweh is subordinate to El and is one of his sons))
Thus there seems to be ample evidence in the biblical record to support the claim that as Yahweh become the supreme national deity of the Israelites, he began to usurp the imagery, epithets, and old cultic centers of the god El. *This process of assimilation even morphed the linguistic meaning of the name El, which later came to mean simply “god,” so that Yahweh was then directly identified as ’el-thus Joshua **22:22**: “the god of gods is Yahweh” (’el ’elohim yhwh).* ((El became a generic term for God after they got merged together))
When the *Most High* divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
*Some scholars who have used the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint to reconstruct the authentic version of the verse say that “children of Israel” was stuck in as a replacement for “sons of El.” With that lost phrase restored, a verse that was cryptic suddenly makes sense: El-the most high god, Elyon-divided the world’s people into ethnic groups and gave one group to each of his sons ((El and Asherah had 70 sons)). And Yahweh, one of those sons, was given the people of Jacob.* Apparently at this point in Israelite history (and there’s no telling how long ago this story originated) *Yahweh isn’t God, but just a god-and a son of God, one among many.* ((Here Yahweh is subordinate to El and is one of his sons))
*So how does Yahweh rise through the ranks? How does a god initially consigned to a lower level of the pantheon eventually merge with the chief god, El, and even, in a sense, supplant him? …*
Here is the skinny. The *revised* text reads thus:
When the *Most High* gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided humankind; he set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the *children of Israel, for* the Lord’s portion *is* his people. Jacob, the lot of his inheritance.
The *unrevised* text read thus:
When the *Most High* gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided humankind; he set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the *children of El, and* the Lord’s portion *was* his people. Jacob, the lot of his inheritance.
A Theologically Revised Text: Deuteronomy 32:8-9 - Ancient Hebrew Poetry
ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com/ancient_hebrew_poetry/2008/02/a-theologically.html
@@LM-jz9vh Hello friend. Didn't know you had posted, or I wouldn't have. Always great to read your comments!
@@deirdre108 Hello to you too my friend. Sorry, I didn't get a notification that you messaged me.
I hope you are well.
It's funny, but I am learning more of the bible as an atheist than when I was a believer! And I went to bible studies! LoL 😆
People in religious circles are told what they should read. For obvious reasons.
Sheeeeeesh.... gotta listen to this over n over. Shared it on Mike&Kim's channel. Goin on my 15 fb accts too.
"He couldn't just come in and eradicate it [slavery] because..."
All Powerful
Religion: "How to get money from your pocket into mine." Sheep
Thank you for great books on teaching us how to debate the fundamentalist apologists with their own myth book. I have Aron Ra's book Foundation Falsehoods of Creationism. I have Josh Bowen books Learn to Red Sumerian: An Introduction for complete Beginners. The Atheists Handbook to the Old Testament: Volume 1. Leon Festinger, Henery W Riecken, and Stanley Schachter When Prophecy Fais. Jason X Bible Problems: Contradictions, Factual Errors, and Evil Moral Teachings in the Bible. Steve Ebling, Julia Bristow Holy Bible-Best God Damned Version-The Book of Moses: For Atheists. These a few books that I have been studying to help me debate these fundamentalists but they are so deadlocked in their beliefs to the point of lying. We had these creationists interrupt our Geology club meeting in college and had to get them to leave and lock the door. We went to one of their anti-evolution films by Ken Ham and debated them after the film. They had us black listed to any of their future film events. Yet we had a hard time getting them to leave us alone. Yes, we get bullied but we bullied them right back. They have the political clout due to their rich parents giving huge sums to the college. That's just the way it is down here in Southwest Virginia.
Dr Josh is brilliant but comes across as very humble. I can't wait to read his books.
I purchased both volumes, pretty good reading.
Is that all these Christians ever think of, who's gay and who isn't?
Seems so.....
13:21 Actually, according to our current physics knowledge, light was around long before the first stars, by about 300 million years. There are other things that are out of order in the creation account, though.
Delightful.
These hosts are the most caller-tolerant I've seen
Usually in my conversations, the theist knows only the immediate context, not the bigger picture in which Yahweh set up the conflict in the first place.
When I don’t know the context, I read the relevant passages
I didn't lose my faith. I flushed it down the toilet.
I learned a valuable lesson about passing on stories about 60 years ago in a game that was played at my Brownie meetings. I think it was called 'telephone line', something like that. You'd sit in a circle, 10 or so of us, and the first child would whisper a sentence into the child next to them and this would be repeated until the last child who would speak the sentence out loud. I was stunned, I still remember it vividly, how vastly different the beginning sentence varied from the end result. It was often so different that they had no matching words or sentiment. It was a funny game, but I took away from it that with only a small number of repetition, the story changed very much. Now, of course the story tellers of old were much better at repeating their history as it was often the only way to keep them alive, but c'mon. How many hundreds of years, attitudes of the times, how meanings of words morph, etc. that there's any hope of actual facts surviving intact. Especially when talking about worship. In modern times, I've seen what a Christian is change in only decades. The Christians of my youth would be horrified by the Christians that are in the news today. Vastly different. I love hearing about the history of it all but it's speculation on ancient fears imo.
Will Dr. Josh do a audio version of his book? I tend to do most of my 'reading' on my long commute.
Yes. An audible version would be most appreciated.
@@robinbeers6689 Read by Seth!
@@utubepunk I would listen to Seth read the owners manual for a lawn mower. Seth reading Dr. Josh's book would be fabulous.
Do you think that the original authors of these texts knew that what they wrote was destined to be compiled into a single volume and used as a basis for religion in the modern world?
There were many authors, and I suspect they ran the gamut. Some probably were specifically for subjugation, but certainly not the earlier ones that were clearly adopted from existing stories.
I expect at least one of them would probably be as confused as if you presented Michael Kirkbride with someone genuinely worshipping Almsivi and claiming Vivec's coming back as his waifu and how he's the reincarnation of Nerevar. (I'm sorry for the Elder Scrolls joke but given MK wrote the sermons of Vivec in a drunken LSD-fuelled mental breakdown due to college finals...)
One helpful thing would be a reference on textual and historical criticisms of the Old Testament.
I find it fascinating that the problem of oral traditions in OT scholarship is similar to the problem in Homeric scholarship, especially as regards The Iliad. And I would like, someday, to come across a reputable scholar discuss the strange parallels between the OT and Greek myths. David v. Odysseus, Samson v. Heracles, etc.
Imagine Jesus' conception. If Christians believe homosexuality is unnatural and an abomination, they have to believe that Jesus is also an abomination because his mother was and inseminated by a ghost/spirit - 100% UNNATURAL. Luke 1:35 kjv - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. - IT'S GHOST RAPE. MARY WAS ALREADY ENGAGED TO JOSEPH ANYWAY.
I got his book for Father's Day along with Aron Ra's book
😁
I got a lot of good tips from this video. 👌
My old Catholic school RE Teacher said that the the cross of the death of Christ was symmetrical. This makes sense now after Dr Josh was talking about slavery and how it was conducted after the NT. Was about 15yrs old when I found my Atheism. Just so glad I was forced to read the Bible.
When I brought up some of the terrible things God did in the old testament with a devout Christian, including some of the insane rules God told people to follow, his immediate response was 'Well, Christ came and rewrote the rules. We follow the new testament, not old'. Okay, fair enough. But we're still talking about the same God, right? The Christian bible uses many parts of the old testament. Christians believe in Noah's flood, where God committed global genocide by drowning almost everyone and everything, including newborn babies.
You can't pick and choose your favourite parts of the old testament because some of them are inconvenient. It's still the same God that you worship today.