The Trinity Is Not A Problem!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- Does the Trinity contradict? Was it invented at the council of Nicea? Dr. Fred Sanders, author of The Deep Things of God: How the Trinity Changes Everything, addresses these questions and other top questions about this unique Christian view of God.
READ: The Deep Things of God: How the Trinity Changes Everything (amzn.to/3mqWcME).
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Amen! Jesus I’m crying out to you. Please hear my cries. I’m struggling with my faith. I knew when I found Jesus my life wouldn’t be easy because I would have to give up on my sinful life style and follow him. I’m a single mother struggling to make ends meet. Since covid I have been struggling to get back on my feet. I lost my job for declining the vaccine. I declined due to my pre existing health conditions, lupus and heart disease so now I’m having a hard time providing for my children. Both of my sons are special needs. I’m overwhelmed I started homeschooling them due to bullying. I’m waitressing and I’m happy to be back working but I’m not making nearly enough to get by. I have nowhere to turn no family nor friends. No hope. I have been put down and mocked, over my situation. Prayers are all I want. I’m so ashamed and so embarrassed so please be kind. Every month I struggle with my children I’m barely making it. But I still keep faith. Praise Jesus. Please hear my prayers. I have faith God will continue to provide.
I’ll pray for you, sister.
Both those preexisting conditions put you at much greater risk for COVID complications. I’m not a Dr., but I’d be extremely surprised if your Dr. Didn’t highly recommend you get the shot. I’m sorry for your situation. I hope things turn around
Child of God, keep loving Jesus. Darkness to light is His business. Stand in his kingdom righteousness, and you will be provided with what you need. Keep on asking. Persistence. Patience in your tears. God loves the diligent mother. Don't give up.
Jesus doesn't keep us from the furnace or the lion's den, we have to walk in with boldness and he will be by our side. God could have arranged the circumstances to avoid the furnace and the den, but how much more glorious that the fire didn't burn them and the starving lions sat there chill? I'm sure that was scary, but always keep your eyes on Christ and not the storm. A crazy storm is brewing, but fear not!
Prayers your way…God has promised He will never leave u nor forsake u. hope u can find more external support as well so that u can become stronger
Trinity in one verse,
Isaiah 48:16 NKJV - “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
Not a trinity, God's Holy Spirit is His powerful force that he uses to accomplish his will, it is NOT a person.
@@djparsons7363 Why did the Lord GOD and His Spirit do something? Why is 'have' plural, instead of 'the Lord God has' (singular)? Please explain why this verse doesn't rightly read, 'And now the Lord GOD has sent Me'? After all, God is not divided - God is One.
@@Mic1904 That is just a matter of the translators choosing that rendering because it supports the idea of a trinity that has always been the agenda of a King James Bible. My NWT has no such bias, thus the rendering is clear.
(Isaiah 48:16) Come near to me, and hear this. From the very start I have not spoken in secret. From the time it happened I was there.” And now the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has sent me, and his spirit.
@@djparsons7363 Jesus, however, is not, JEHOVAH. Jesus's Hebraic
name is-----YESHUA, which differs from YHWH, ELOHIM, ADONAI, and,
EL SHADDAI, which are the Names of GOD the FATHER.
AND;
HOLY SPIRIT, is not some Mysterious "FORCE," like some people
Assert. GOD the FATHER is that One and Only HOLY SPIRIT.
If GOD the FATHER ISN'T the HOLY SPIRIT....Then just what IS HE?
With all respect.
@@raygsbrelcik5578 I have never said that Jesus is Jehovah because I know he isn't, Jehovah is almighty God, Jesus is his Son, the very first creation by the Father.
I disagree about the Holy Spirit, it is not a person, It is a powerful force that Jehovah controls and uses in many different ways to accomplish his will. HE isn't Holy Spirit, it is a tool, so to speak, that he uses.
Jehovah never leaves his Heavenly dwelling place, he projects his Holy Spirit to do many things, from parting the Red Sea, enabling Jesus to heal sicknesses and raise the dead, destroying Sodom and Gomorrah etc.
For those who think the Holy Spirit is a living person, if that were so "he" would have a name, any prominent figure in Scripture has a name but not Holy Spirit because it isn't a person.
The Trinity had never been a problem for me since I did physics at school. There are plenty of weird things that scientists accept as true that don’t seem to make much sense at first. Quantum mechanics and wave-particle duality come to mind. If they can accept those things that are difficult to explain, then I can accept the Trinity.
Why should I, a finite mortal, be able to easily understand the nature of the infinite immortal?
Exactly.
Great point and question!
This is the perfect God of the Gaps reasoning and will get the most upvotes. Guaranteed.
LOLZ
Terrible point and question! Scientists accept odd seeming results when they are testable and repeatable DESPITE our preconceptions.
You are preconceiving a result DESPITE no evidence to back your claims. Sad
That's how I feel as well. If it's true there should be things I don't really understand.
“My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
“The rain and snow come down from the heavens and stay on the ground to water the earth. They cause the grain to grow, producing seed for the farmer and bread for the hungry.
It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it.
Isaiah 55:8-11 NLT
As a theologian you may want to consider .
1. Neither does the Flat Earth with an upturned edge under a Firmament contradict scriptures (which I believe)
2. Scriptures are designed for children to understand
3. Scriptures are self-explanatory if you need to explain them to someone then you're overthinking them.
Exactly. The problem is Trinitarians fell in love philosophy and that killed their common sense, e.g. sons are not the same age as their fathers. 😂
Definitely long over due. Thanks Sean. I appreciate your ministry.
Glad you enjoyed!
@@SeanMcDowell You're a good man, Sean....but you have, like
Many others, fallen for this Late 2nd--Early 3rd Centuries, Post Apostolic,
Roman Catholic, pagan doctrine.
There IS but ONE Literal, Almighty GOD----Therefore, there IS but ONE,
Almighty Eternal, Omniscient....HOLY SPIRIT!
Jesus is NOT a, "SPIRIT."
GOD the FATHER IS!
With respect.
@@SeanMcDowellI had asked and haven't seen a response maybe this doesn't go to an auto response to let me know that you have replied but who was God in John 1:1
The dimly lit room is the trinitarian room.
That are not in the Bible to support the word Trinity which is not in the Bible. The Trinity is the Triad of old paganism with terms from the Bible. The Trinity is a denial of Jesus is the Lord God Almighty alone and by himself as father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. The original Orthodox Faith was modalist menarchism.
Royal Fred Sanders sounds like a liberal with his progressive revelation he doesn't believe that God gave the Jews the truth he only gave him a dimly lit room so they could barely see that God was truly 1.
Thanks for the providing this interview. Good stuff.
You’re upping your thumbnail game, man! I love it!
Thank you Sean McDowell, timely, relevant topic. Another great guest.
Who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity?
some other pagan. does it really matter? god committed suicide to himself to save us from himself so we don't have to do anything!
Thanks for this. Excellent discussion.
Thanks so much for this. Have always had a nagging longing to better understand the Trinity. This has helped greatly, although my head is still spinning a bit. BUT…I do feel spurred on to pray for understanding and research deeper. Thanks again.
God is unique!
AKA: Holy! Set apart, like nothing else. That's why God is a challenge for us to understand because God is literally incomparable. Shalom!
the trinity is of the antichrist it denies that Jesus came only in the flesh
One of the primary reasons why this is confusing for humans is because we are one being (human) with one personhood (Sean, Fred, etc.). God is not like us in this regard, in that He is one being with three personhoods. Thus, we struggle to understand this, which is both logical and reasonable since this relates to God; divinity cannot be dissected and fully understood by a creature.
Where is God ever described as triune or three in one?
@@cc3775 Listen to the video.
@@Mairiain I don’t need to. The same old nonsense I was told for 30 plus years. I’m asking where in scripture?
@@cc3775 The video tells you where in the Bible.
@@Mairiain not possible because it’s nonexistent. God is described as one and uses personal pronouns.
It occurs to me that the term "Last Supper" is also not in the Bible. And yet no one had any qualms about using it.
The doctrine of the Trinity "is not directly proposed in words of Scripture and presented to us in a formulated state" (p. 39). "The Triunity of God is not verbally formulated for us...some assembly is required (Dr. Fred Sanders, The Triune God, p. 40).
-
"We cannot speak of the doctrine of the Trinity as revealed in the New Testament, any more than we can speak of it as revealed in the Old Testament” (Dr. Fred Sanders, The Triune God, p. 89, quoting Dr. B.B. Warfield).
Protestants should have abandoned the Trinity like they abandoned indulgences.
This is a really good explanation. I am trying to help my Tagalog speaking oneness Pentecostal friend to understand the trininty and it's been challenging.
Just stick with what the Scriptures say and don’t worry about these doctrines that are not in there. No one found it necessary to explain the “Trinity” in the first century, so there’s no reason we should need to do so today.
As for Oneness, that easy to refute using clear and explicit Scriptural passages.
It’s challenging because it’s incoherent nonsense.
Oneness need to face the fact that Oneness makes Jesus a "fake son" not a real son... and when you get down to it, Oneness denies the deity of Christ, surprisingly.
With Oneness, the relationship between the Father and the Son becomes a charade, because they believe the Father is the same person as the Son. So, there's no actual love relationship between persons.
When they do make a distinction between the Father and the Son, they make the Son into a man only, which denies His deity.
So, the main issue with Oneness is, they do not have both the Father and the Son. The love relationship between the Father and the Son is Eternal Life. To have Eternal Life you must be in the Son of the Father.
@@ro6ti Jesus isn’t a deity
@@cc3775 So cool when you meet someone who is smarter than 2000 years of church history
Well, if logic and reason is an appropriate tool for discerning truth from error, this argument matters:
1. There is only 1 Most High God.
2. The Father is the Most High God.
3. Jesus is not the Father.
4. Therefore, Jesus is not the Most High God.
The argument is valid and sound.
Modalists can reject premise 3.
But what premise can Trinitarians reject?
Contradictions are falsehoods. God doesn't want us believing in falsehoods:)
Respectfully, brothers, both Scripture and logic are against this teaching.
Sorry, it may be valid and sound, but it would ONLY be a true argument if #2 said, "ONLY the Father is the Most High God." Since Jesus is referred to as the Yahweh of the Old Testament, worshiped as God, and called, "God", we have to assume He IS the Most High God as well as the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Think of your argument, if you were to draw it out, as a large circle titled "The Most High God". Within that circle, you include the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as separate small circles. All three are the Most High God. It's like John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." On the surface, this would mean the Son is NOT the only true God. But this is why the Trinity is the only consistent explanation for all of Scripture, because the Father IS the only true God, but so is the Son and the Holy Spirit. You'd have to be a polytheist to say otherwise.
@@biblicalworldview1 Jesus is NEVER referred to as Yahweh of the Old Testament, you don't know what truth is.
@@djparsons7363 Sure. I can think of two specifically.
1. John 12:37-41 v. 41 says, "These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him." NKJV
So where is John quoting here, when he says Isaiah saw Jesus' glory? It's Isaiah 6, when Isaiah saw Yahweh. You can compare them and read it for yourself.
2. Hebrews 1:10-12, where right before the Father calls the Son, "God", it quotes about Jesus in Psalm 102:25-27, referring to Yahweh once again.
Jesus is worshiped by God by his disciples and others without any correction. Jesus is called God by Paul and other disciples. Jesus is referred to as the "Word made flesh", the Word who is God in John 1:1-2.
That's just a tiny sample. The Bible cannot be more clear that Jesus is God incarnate, and denying it is denying Jesus.
@@biblicalworldview1 Isaiah spoke of the people not putting faith in Jehovah despite all the signs he performed. John is applying Isaiah's words to the way the people reacted to Jesus and the signs he performed. The glory Isaiah saw was Jehovah's, not Jesus'.
Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God? Because the Son is the one THROUGH WHOM God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.)
It should be observed in Hebrews 1:5b that a quotation is made from 2 Samuel 7:14 and applied to the Son of God. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon.-Luke 11:31.
John 1:1 is not an accurate rendering in the KJV, many other Bible translators DO NOT AGREE with the Word being God.
Five German Bible translators use the term “a god” in that verse. At least 13 others have used expressions such as “of divine kind” or “godlike kind.” These renderings agree with other parts of the Bible to show that, yes, Jesus in heaven is a god in the sense of being divine. But Jehovah and Jesus are NOT THE SAME BEING, the same God.-John 14:28; 20:17.
With the KJV rendering of John 1:1 being opposed by so many other Bible translators you cannot be dogmatic that the KJV is the absolute truth, it is full of inaccuracies.
@@djparsons7363 I don't generally use the KJV, so I'm not sure why you are taking issue with it. The same translation of these verses is found in every modern English translation. Although the KJV is certainly a much better translation than the NWT, because it doesn't add words not found in the Greek to support aberrant theological beliefs. I go by what the Greek says. The Isaiah quote is related to John 12:41 where it says, "Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him" (ESV), regardless of the translation, they ALL say that Isaiah SAW Jesus' glory and spoke of him. Please consider this and don't just dismiss it.
I grew up in a religious group that denied the Trinity and taught it as polytheism and a doctrine of demons. I denied the Trinity until I really looked into what the Bible taught about God separated from my prior beliefs.
Hebrews 1:10-12 is directly talking about the Son as Creator God Himself and calling him "Yahweh" relating Him to the same Yahweh Psalm 102:25-27 is talking about, because it quotes it verbatim.
No good Bible translator adds words to the Greek text to make it say something else. There is one God, not Jehovah God and demigods. I wouldn't compare 13 bad translators to thousands of good ones and say that somehow refutes the good ones. Who are the German translators you speak of?
Would you agree that God doesn't share His glory with any other, for He is a jealous God?
This man Fred was very “unboring.” I liked this discussion.
Weird that it popped up today. I am co-teaching 5-7 year olds on the “ABC’s of God.” This next Sunday we are teaching on the Trinity. I was wanting to listen to something to add to my understanding as I prepare. And this popped up!
Fred, how would you explain the Trinity to 5-7 year olds?? I have some idea based on listening to this video….but I’d love to hear your exact wording.
While hearing what was said about analogies, I need one. As a technologist, this is mine. Picture an AI. The same AI can be the "mind" of and animate multiple robots at the same time; each robot can be performing different activities. Interact with any individual robot (maybe one is red, a second is green and a third is blue) and you are still really interacting with the same, single back-end AI. The "what" is the AI; the "who" is the red robot, the green robot, the blue robot.
I have never read the bible through. I am really trying not to be mislead like I have been so many times. I don't like being put into a label or box. I just know I am a child of God. In your opinion, would it be better to read with prayer for clarity by myself or just pick a church to go to because they are a church and are the house of God and they know how to teach me? I hope this makes sense.
Hei, just begin by the gospels (the new testament). Then you can move to other parts. And when you have a relationship with the Creator, you can look for a church rear your house. I will be praying that the Holy Spirit Guide you along the way.
Start with genesis and keep going until you realize it's just mythological nonsense that primitive humans invented. I bet you don't make it to Numbers, the fifth book.
@@paulallen7962 You are wrong, but don't take OUR word for it: you will find out for yourself soon enough!!
@justin10292000 I know you believe that Justin. Th same way 3 billion Muslims and Hindus on the planet today are convinced that their indoctrinated beliefs are true. You have been brainwashed, the same as them. Yahweh never existed. He was a human invention, the same as thousands of other gods humans invented to try and explain our existence.
@justin10292000 Yahweh was originally a second tier diety in the Canaanite pantheon from which Judaism evolved. The most high god was El. The Hebrew patriarchs worshipped El. Yahweh wasn't invented until the time of Moses.
Exodus 6 2-3 NOG
2 Elohim spoke to Moses, “I am Yahweh. 3 I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as El Shadday, but I didn’t make myself known to them by my name, Yahweh.
According to the myth, El and the goddess Asherah had many children. The sons of God (second tier dieties). Each son was given a nation to rule over. Chemosh-Moab, Baal- Canaan Milcom-Ammon, Qaus-Edom, Yahweh-Israel etc.
Deuteronomy 32 8-9 ESV
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.[b]
9 But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.
Editors later changed sons of God to angels of God to hide the polytheism but the oldest manuscript found at the dead sea scrolls says sons of God. I hope this helps.
More mental gymnastics from Christians, The trinity doctrine was concocted by the church fathers just think which of the previous prophets worshipped a triune God answer - NONE
I agree with the analogies being imperfect, but I think the 3 in 1 apple book I had as a child really helped me conceptualize God, so they have their place, I think.
ONE GOD FATHER have his word - he create everything with his word and since he is almighty his word can become anything so it can become flesh - Son living word of God-I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God and God have his holy Spirit
Our Lord used analogies. Here's one of mine:
"Coming Closer to the Wind,
Coming closer every day.
He will bring us to the Father
By the True and Living Way."
That’s not an analogy
Excellent discussion!
As Hans Fiene would say "That's modalism, Patrick!"
Totally under appreciated sketch.
"I'm not picking up what you're laying down.""
Oh Patrick...
@@carsonphillips1377..... tell us a bit more about this trinity thing. Yeah Patrick tell us but remember that we're simple people without your fancy education in books and learning and we're hearing about all of this for the first time so try to keep it simple.....Okay Patrick?
I remembered "a great suggestion" in order to understand God:
" Seek not to understand that you may believe, but seek to believe that you may understand ..."
Not a suggestion from the bible. As faith comes hope and we must reason our hope as 1 Peter 3:15.
Blind faith allows people to believe in nonsense like Jesus being God, but if you read the Holy Bible he was not nor could legally be other than a man, whose Father was God.
@Simon Skinner You could not be more wrong. Many Scriptures make it clear that Jesus is God and claimed it repeatedly. However, one only has to point out that Jesus was crucified for blasphemy -- precisely the "blasphemy" of claiming to be God Himself, I Am. Do you not believe the Bible?
@@justin10292000 Jesus was possessed by the Holy Spirit that he received at baptism, as Jesus explained in John 5:31 he as a person was not witness to himself, but his Father who he impersonated.
Blasphemy was for breaking Sabbath and calling himself Son of God as John 5:18, he never would or could claim to be God, he had to be born of a woman under the law to qualify to be the Messiah.
When he said "I am'" those words came from God who was inside him.
My latest Ytube video 'John 3:13 Did Jesus come down from heaven? No #28 Myths in so-called Christianity' exposes another misreading of the NT as people try to make Jesus into the Creator.
@@justin10292000 many scriptures make it clear that Jesus is God lol yet your church fathers, history, primary sources say otherwise. it's hilarious how, no matter what, idolators will find their way to the fire.
@@justin10292000 .. what verses are you reading?
You're only giving your opinion and making assumptions which are not supported in scripture.
as mentioned in history, the trinity was formulated in its current form AFTER 400 YEARS - acc to Britannica - The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.
Is Fred's office a book closet? haha Thank you for a great teaching video.
same lol
No mention of the Johannine comma?
It is irrelevant. It is not proof of a trinity.
I'm not sure it's necessary to go to all these lengths to try and put God in a nice neat little Box that might be wrong anyway.
What a horrible misrepresentation. We are trying to articulate the way God has revealed himself. If you don’t like it, take it up with God. The trinity is 100% correct because God’s word is infallible.
I think C.S. Lewis did great work in trying to explain the unexplainable - that God is an extra-dimensional being.
His is not part of our universe and is not subject to its limitations. Things work differently in that dimension (he IS the dimension, in a sense.)
Lewis described the difference between a first-dimensional line, a 2nd-dimensional square, and a 3rd-dimensional cube - the line from the first dimension is also in the second dimension, but it works and relates differently and creates a new and different thing, which is ONE square. The ONE square from the second dimension also exists in the third dimension but combines and functions differently to create ONE cube.
In our dimension of time and space one person/being can have multiple roles or modes, as described in the video - but generally, they can only do or be one thing at a TIME.
Yahweh exists as a single being that manifests as 3 persons that can function in the 3 roles independently and simultaneously without ever a splitting or having a separation of essence, which is apparently fully possible outside of our dimension.
In the end though, illustrations do always fall short, but that does not make them less true - I scientist can write out a formulaic equation on a board that is a true and accurate analysis of how gravity works, but the equation on the board, though true, is not ACTUALLY gravity.
Heard one apologetic that delved into 4 dimensional viewed in a 3d world. Was struck by it seemingly being a philosophical solution. Depends what the 4th dimension is I suppose
How important is the Trinity? I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Indeed not the word Trinity) are mentioned in the first 7 church creeds. Justification by faith is not mentioned in any of the early creeds. Hmmm?
The trinity is a litmus test for Christian indoctrination. Congrats you are less manipulatable than many of your peers
The trinity is important for Satan. to make a Problem for the connention with GOD
trough Jesus the Christ. The trinity is a Spirit of confusion. amd uncertainty
@@hommerecorder7003the only confusion is you trying to claim God let His church fall into complete heresy. The trinity is completely supported by scripture.
Genesis 1:26 Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness” If the Creator is “triune", that is 3 persons (or “minds”) in one God (as practically all of Christendom teaches), should we not see a reflection of this in His human creation? Well, from as far as we can tell, people, who are made in His image seem to be clearly defined as individuals, singles with a clear separation of distinctive individual bodies with one single unique mind and one single unique personality.
Humans do have a triune nature. Our bodies, our minds and our soul.
No, “practically all of Christendom” does **not** teach “three minds”!
This is a serious area of confusion throughout trinitarian Christendom.
Those who identify as “classical/historical” trinitarians teach that the Trinity only has one will, one mind.
To teach three wills, three minds within the Godhead risks teaching tri-theism, in their view.
When saying “person”, classical/historical trinitarians are careful to not use human-person analogies.
Since three distinct human persons have three distinct minds, that is not analogous to the persons of the Godhead in the “historical/classical” view.
Whenever they say “person”, they insist that terms like “subsistence” is more what they mean. (As to how you define “subsistence”, I have no clue.)
Well said, I completely agree with you.
Genesis 1:26 in my opinion is most likely a reference to God speaking to the angels in the Divine Assembly - and right after he says for I have made man in my image- Male and Female HE created them. God is announcing the task that He is about to do to the Angels. It is called a cohortative clause and he is speaking to a group of people. If you read the trinity in that verse you have specifically the "us" making man but you have singular in all the other creative acts. It doesnt make sense to hold that view in my opinion and you would have the Father telling the Son and Holy Spirit that we are to be made in the Image of the Father- it doesnt make sense. However like Dr. Sanders said, most of our reasons for believing in the Trinity come from the NT and we should stick to fundamental texts like Matthew 11 and other NT texts, and then see the Adumbrations of the Trinity in the OT
@@marksbeats3053 I concede that part of what you say seems reasonable, and I sympathize with sticking to the New Testament texts while being cautious with our reading of the First Testament.
That said, there’s a problem with the divine council view in Genesis.
We see “us” in Genesis 11:7 as well, but then Genesis 11:8 clarifies that it’s the Lord God who goes down - with no divine council to be seen.
min 44..."its crucial to get it right" - soooo you noticed, side stepped...and posed to "organizations" being harder on it...which one is it? Yes or no for trinity req. and salvation?
They didn’t side step it in the slightest. You’re just unable to approach the subject with nuance.
Well I think he didn’t quite answer it either. I was envisioning a person who put their faith in Jesus as the son of God and Savior but didn’t really understand it very well yet. And maybe they didn’t understand the Holy Spirit at all yet. But they genuinely put their trust in Jesus as their savior. Then they would receive the Holy Spirit but not yet understand what that even was. That person could be saved I think. Then later they could come to understand better. But they could still be converted: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”
Right? Children, for example, don’t understand very much yet-certainly not the Trinity. But they can see their need for a Savior and understand that they have to put their trust in Him.
I'd like to hear Fred's justification for saying the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, rather than from the Father. If anyone has any recommendations for an explanation of the Western Church's argument for adding the Son to that part of the Nicene Creed, I'd like to read it. I don't have a commitment to either side of the Filioque question but would like to look into it.
In any case, I found it a bit frustrating that Fred took a position on that issue without explaining or justifying his reason for taking that position.
Jesus says he will send his spirit in Luke 24. This has typically been the church’s defense. Fred doesn’t have to justify the statement, because the topic is not about the sending of the Holy Spirit and the discussion of the Filioque is a niche Christian disagreement.
I could listed to you two talk about the trinity for hours. Thanks for this.
2000 years and it’s still illogical and makes no sense
If Jesus is FATHER.
THEN
Was Jesus pregnant her mother?
@@ahsanalijutt3502 I'm seriously shocked the🏳🌈 "progressives" haven't seized the opportunity of calling the trinity THEY/THEM yet?!? God bless!!😇
🤢
@@ahsanalijutt3502 You're a Moron!
I've found the Trinity to be confusing and beyond my ability to really comprehend. But what real thing isn't hard to understand? I would expect the finite to have a very hard time understanding the infinite. And the fact that people have a hard time understanding this I feel lends credence to it being the truth.
If you cant explain something to someone in an understandable way you don’t understand it yourself.
But sure let’s give god a pass on explanation cause he’s only going to torture people for eternity…. Wait..
@@logan666 Wrong, God does not condemn anyone, people foolishly condemn themselves by refusing to accept the free gift of Salvation. So, God is a perfect and holy God, He CAN NOT enter the Presence of sin did you know that? His Holy Being would destroy that sin, that is why Jesus had to be left all alone on the cross and that why he cried out "My God, my God why have you forsaken (left) me? When Jesus rose and saw Mary, in John ch. 20, he told her touch me not for I have not yet ascended unto the Father, but 8 days later he told Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds. If Mary had merely touched Jesus she would have defiled the Sacrificial Offering and God could nit have accepted it because it would have had sin stained hands on the sacrifice.
So, life lies in the blood, our sin is death and thus we needed and atonement of innocent blood in order for God to justify us, and cleanse of from our sins, he sent Jesus who loved us enough to do that or else Satan would have already defeated us. Satan is the god of this world as we speak, God had to win us back. So, in essence you were condemned to hell by the Sin Stain of Adam, and Jesus died for you, all you have to do is accept that FREE GIFT. Now, what would you call a man on *DEATH ROW* who refused a *Pardon* ? Most people would call him very, very dumb, and they would have to say what? Ultimately that man *CONDEMNED HIMSELF* and thus Gid is not torturing you, you are refusing His FREE GIFT that can give you life eternal, and you instead listen to the liar Satan who deceives you, you blame God when it was that LYING FOOL who created a chasm n=between man and God. Thus you will win your prize, Hell was created for Satan and his Demons, yet YOU............YOU..........YOU are choosing to be separated from God for eternity, because He can not welcome anyone to heaven with sin in their life. So, you will win your prize Satan and his demons will indeed torture you, and laugh at you, every time they defile you. And God is just not able to receive the FOOL who refuses the FREE GIFT of Eternal Life, because God's Presence can not abide sin. DUH
@@MrRondonmon Don't throw your Pearls Before Swine. In other words this guy's just here to fight and insult people. Best not to engage him.
Can you understand that Jesus is a man approved by God?
Rubbish! The truth is simple and uncomplicated, it's the lies that don't make a bit of sense.
Sean, what are your thoughts about the Orthodox Church doctrine of the "Monarchy of the Father" and how this relates to the filioque clause?
The first division of the year is found in Genesis 1. This is where the year is divided into two seasons of summer/day and winter/night. The six days begin at the spring equinox and end at the autumn equinox and the six nights begin at the autumn equinox and end at the spring equinox. This is modified when the first night (Libra) is moved above the equinoctial line and added to the six days (Aries - Virgo) to get the sacred seven signs (Aries thru Libra). This left five nights/months representing winter (Scorpio thru Pisces).
The trinity divides the year into three seasons of four months (120 days) each. An example is Nahor/winter (Sagittarius thru Pisces), Abram/spring (Aries thru Cancer), and Haran/Summer (Leo thru Scorpio). This is also the trinity of Vishnu, Brahma, and Siva.
The four sons of Reuben (Aquarius/Janus) divides the year into four seasons of 90 days each.
Interesting! There is a lot of numerology in the Bible too.
Why not have Dr Fred debate Dale Tuggy?
Perhaps Fred doesn't do debates, as you suggest. No big deal. Also, you state it like Sean has control over either person. Nope.
Uh, I think you spelt George Lucas incorrectly there Sean
Thank you so much for posting this! I have recently been introduced to many people who deny the deity of Jesus and this issue has become a hot talking point in a few different groups I am a part of. I have been trying to help these people see but besides listing the obvious Bible verses that clearly infer Jesus is God, it is hard to reason with people who deny the obvious.
Obvious inferences? Don't you think that an important new teaching like that would be explicit and clear?
It's nice to have intellectual schmucks, like these two, in our corner...it's the truth, and should be available, accessible, and understandable to all. God Bless You All In Jesus Name.
As one who identifies as trinitarian, I will admit there are challenges.
Which version/model of the Trinity do we subscribe to?
To take Dean’s advice, look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s entry on the Trinity… it could be the case that we’re conflating several versions/models of the Trinity together.
On that note, it’s important to focus on some differences.
There are “classical/historical” trinitarians who say the Trinity only has one will. To teach more than one will is to risk teaching tri-theism, in their view.
On the other hand, we have “social-hierarchical” trinitarians who claim that the Son is eternally subject to the Father’s authority. But the “classical/historical” pushback is that eternal subjection demands more than one will within the Godhead, which goes against the “classical/historical” view of there being one will in the Trinity.
As well, how do we define “person”? Do we take the social-hierarchical route to say that the family unit, the Genesis 2:24 model is the best analogy for the three persons? (While maintaining that no analogy is perfect.)
Or do we take the “classical/historical” route to avoid using human-person analogies - to instead emphasize that “person” is more like a “subsistence” or, as Boethius phrased it, “individual substance of a rational nature”?
(And then, how do we even define such terms, like “subsistence”?)
The more I dive in, the more I feel… dispirited.
Please stop 🛑. Don’t dive too far in without knowing how to ask the Holy Spirit. The three aspects/persons of The One God always point back to the same one Will. They always support each other’s testimony and never divert to lead one astray. With the subsistence,God being infinitely powerful Omnipotent, has the ability to not only sustain and support himself as one but as the Son Jesus Christ, and as The Holy Spirit. Please don’t keep asking SOO many questions at one time without stopping to wait for An Answer or Two. There is a song that literally states “ I’m going to wait for An Answer from you.” I fervently pray that you will not allow the questions to throw you further down the rabbit hole of infinite questions. Please let me know if this helps you at all and when you slow down I’m sure it will help as well.❤️🙏🏽💯
I hear ya, brother. It is a very difficult concept. Thank God for grace.
You are overcomplicating and overthinking this my friend. I can explain the Trinity via a simply demonstration. Since the essence of all three are exactly the same, it leads all three to the same will, yes Jesus wanted to rid himself of his cup (death) if there was another way, but he still yielded to the Father's will, so he trusted the Father and thus the Fathers will was his will. Jesus had to overcome the flesh also, thus he needed to pray. Jesus was led into the desert by the Spirit, when he denied Satan over a period of time he came out of the desert in the *Power of the Spirit* As per the Trinity:
Lets take a three (3) trillion gallon reservoir of water, it has the exact same chemical makeup throughout in every ounce of water (PHD levels). Likewise the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE in Essence and Likeness, they are Love, Hope, Joy, Peace Kindness etc. etc. So, take 100 gallons (Jesus) of that water and pour it over your head, you will be soaking wet but A-OK. Again, take another 100 gallons of water (Holy Spirit) and pour that over your head also, again, you will no doubt be soaked, but not harmed in the least. NOW...........take the whole three (3) trillion gallons (God the Father) of water and pour that over your head and you will surely die !! Only God the Father has the Abundance of the Glory. Hence men could look upon Jesus and live, the Holy Spirit lives in our hearts and we are not harmed, hence we receive God's Peace, Joy, Love Hope etc. etc. but if we actually looked upon the Glory of God the Father we would die, like the 70 did who looked into the Ark of the Covenant, Moses saw His hinder parts and glowed it is said.
Since they are all one in Spirit, they all have the exact same mind/will, but their offices are three different offices. We have God the Father, God the Redeemer and God the Helpmate.
I understand you problem is via the will, but Love, Hope, Peace, Joy always has the will of perfection. There is no other choices for all three, when that happens you get Lucifer rebelling.
Thanks for noticing! Rarely does anyone bother clarifying this for me!
@@MrRondonmon Not really. This is basic stuff.
Ironically, the complicated part rests within the historical/classical view of personhood, whereas the social-hierarchical view may be guilty of simplifying too much.
I did focus on the “will” part , but there’s the issue of “mind” as well.
How do we say there are three distinct “persons”, and yet only one mind as the “historical/classical” view teaches?
It just seems like trinitarians struggle with a fine line between:
- teaching modalism as to erase any real distinction on one hand
- or teaching too much distinction between the “persons” - leaning towards “tri-theism” on the other.
It just seems like there’s always a tension.
As for the subjection of will (Luke 22:42), the classical/historical view teaches that Christ has two wills - one human will, one divine will. That it’s the human will that’s subject to the Father, not the one divine will possessed by the other two persons.
That Christ has two wills is labeled “chalcedonian” - the Orthodox view of Christology, which many, if not most lay-trinitarians are not aware of.
Silliness.
it's called idolatry and you know nothing about it! Leave it to the professionals!
Interesting, thanks
Of course!
@@SeanMcDowell You're a good man, Sean----but there is MUCH
You know NOT, concerning this, "trinity" thing! With all respect, it is a
Man made, Post Apostolic, Dark Age Doctrine.
There IS but ONE, Literal, Almighty GOD...Therefore, there IS but ONE,
Almighty, Eternal, Omniscient HOLY SPIRIT.
THAT can ONLY be...the FATHER!
Jesus, contrastly....is NOT the FATHER.
Nor is he a,....SPIRIT.
"SON of GOD," is NOT the same as, IS GOD, my friend!
Seek WISDOM.
Seek Truth.
I think about &/or talk to God in my mind most days. Only when it feels right or when something makes me think to. I dont go to church.
Sometimes I turn to Jesus. He seems to shake his head & gently points me back to God.
I pray to God to help me understand the trinity. I watch this video.
I currently understand that the concept of trinity is a stumblung block & that I am not a Christian.
Perhaps I will pray to God again for more understanding.
I trust God most of all.
Jesus seems to agree.
God bless.
One of the best discussions on the trinity yet. One thing wasn't addressed - the definition of "person" since the claim is God in 3 persons. Sean, you are self conscious, intelligent, with a brilliant mind and some creative power, you are made in the image of God after all. Do you think your mind and creative power is another person or part of your own self?
God is supremely self conscious, intelligent and has perfect mind with unlimited creative power.
Why do you think God's mind and power is a separate person and not just part of HIS OWN SELF?
Would love to see this addressed. Great points
As a Catholic and a CCD teacher, I'm saying this is really good teaching!
Thanks for watching!
Garbage! Go ask a Jew! LOl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@SeanMcDowell If Jesus is GOD-----Literally, then just WHO is GOD
the FATHER, Sean?
With respect.
@@SeanMcDowell And WHY do we read the Following in Both,
PSALM 8:5, and the N.T. Fulfillment....HEB.2:7-9;
"You ( GOD) MADE him ( Jesus), a little LOWER than the Angels...
and Crowned him with Glory and Honor."
QUESTION;
WHO, "Made" Whom?
AND;
WHO, "Crowned" Whom.....?
And there are MANY more Scriptures that Debunk the, "Jesus is GOD,"
Crowd!
Please, do NOT misunderstand me! This false, Pagan doctrine was
Designed to DIVIDE the Churchworld Against itself! And That is PRE
CISELY what it has DONE!
@@raygsbrelcik5578 If you check an interlinear, you will realize that "made ... lower" is one word. The word "made" is used in the same way as in the sentence "You made me happy". It is impossible for the verse to mean that the Son was created.
Thank you. I learned some new ways to talk about the TRINITY.
It would be better to find new ways to talk about the truth. 😊 Does the Trinity doctrine agree with the scriptures or contradict them? If they contradict them then which should we believe? (Rom 3:4)
I also like to visualize Moses speaking to God in Exodus 3:6 (NIV): Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
God is there, not in Human form, but as flames of fire, a burning spirit. Clearly God is not isolated to only that space and time, God was everywhere, yet had a presence there with Moses.
The way I see it is like a programer creating a metaverse. The programer is outside of the metaverse but interacts with the metaverse through code and through his avatar. The Father is the programer, the Word/ Spirit is the code, the avatar is the Son. The programer can only be seen in the metaverse through his avatar and by the works he does through code. So this is why Jesus says if you see me you see the Father and that his works are by the Father or Holy Ghost. I believe Jesus is the Father and the Holy Ghost and the Son, if you are interacting with Jesus or are face to face with him, you are in the presence of the Father in his visible form and all his works are done by his Spirit. This is why if you don't know Jesus you can't know the Father because he is the Father in the flesh. Scripture also says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, just as the Father speaks the Word and Jesus' body is the Spirit made flesh. I hope this makes sense to some people. I pray to the Lord Jesus and know that my prayers go to the Father.
I like what you’re attempting here. You’ve already noticed mine, so you already know the difference. The reason I would go with an AI and subprocesses is that the Avatar of a programmer is an echo of the programmer (or User if we wanted to harken back to Tron). But the avatar of the Programmer is separate from the avatar. They aren’t the same substance, thus creating multiple gods. The self-contained subprocesses avatar of an AI that runs the meta verse is still the same substance with its subprocess, thus you can have three “persons” or as I like to say “loci of thought” but still only one being.
I’m actually impressed with these metaphors. I feel like you’ve gotten the closest to a coherent idea of the trinity compared to many others. My only gripe would be that in all the examples above, the ‘father’ God contains more information than the others. The ‘son’ and ‘spirit’ are sub populations of the father still. In these examples Jesus wouldn’t be God, he would be an avatar in gods control, or a sub process of god. You wouldn’t say that my hand and I are two separate things with the same substance (me). This is all an exercise in futility, as the trinity is inherently incoherent.
@@logan666 Well, a subprocesses could have access to all the information that the central process has or it can have less at the discretion of the central process so long as the central process left that door open and didn’t partition it’s infinite hard drive. The subprocess could be limited without infringing upon the central AI, the way Jesus was voluntarily limited.
And I would say that your hand is the same substance as you. It wouldn’t be a separate person. Unless your hand had its own brain the way stegosaurus is said to have a brain in its tail.
I think one of the amusing aspects of the infinite AI analogy is that if you split the processing power of an infinite AI in half each process has infinite processing power. You can make half the first again to make a third process and they will all three have infinite processing power.
And while we say that the Trinity is incomprehensible by it’s nature, I’m not sure that’s true. Maybe we have just never had an information based universe before to analogize from. Or maybe I just don’t know when to quit. Either way.
Believe what you like but it's completely wrong.
@@djparsons7363 Well, how is it wrong?
Really enjoyed this discussion and will be sharing it with others. As for explaining the trinity to others, I found the best analogy which is not a perfect one is that...
God is the divine "family" name, and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the only members of that "family".
It is similar to if only myself, my brother, and sister were the only three people left in my family. Our family name is "Skelton" but only three people make up that family name now.
Like I said, it is not a perfect analogy but it seems to get the point across that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are NOT three Gods but rather "family" God consists of three divine beings! The ONE TRUE GOD, consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all interacting with each other, of the same mind and purpose, but yet, with their own unique function within the Godhead.
I hope that helps with some in grasping the trinityish nature of God.
______________________
Though I don't feel it is a salvation issue, but rather a scripture technicality issue, one thing Dr Sanders stated was that Jesus has "existed always as the Son of the Father, Eternally generated or begotten second person" (about 17:32-17:58 in the video). If I understand those statements correctly, he is saying that Jesus existed as the Son of God prior to Him taking on flesh. Unless I missed a passage or more, I can't really find that idea from scripture.
However, I can find that He existed prior to taking on flesh...
> As God the Word: John 1:1-14,
> In the form of God: Philippians 2:5-8
> As LORD GOD: Hebrews 1:8-12
> In a higher state than the angels: Hebrews 2:9-18
> As the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty: Revelation 1:8, 17
> As I AM: John 8:58-59
There are other scriptures that show how He was known prior to taking on flesh and I can't find any that say He was known as the Son of God prior to that time. There are O.T. prophecies of Him becoming and called the Son of God but that is not seeing at the time the prophecy was made HE IS THE SON OF GOD at that time.
From my understanding of scripture, Jesus was known as all of the above and by other names or designations but then He humbled Himself, placing Himself in subjection to God the Father, the Ancient of Days, the Most High God, and took on flesh. At that point, He fulfilled the prophecies about becoming and being called the Son of God, the beloved Only Begotten of the Most High God. Though God the Father, the Most High God, declared Jesus at His baptism and mount of transfiguration event as His beloved Only Begotten Son, it was through Jesus resurrection that He was confirmed beyond doubt that HE IS the Son of God (Romans 1:4) and will now forever be known as such. In other words, though all three of the Godhead knew He would become and be called the Son of God, He did not actually take on that designation and become such until He took on flesh and blood.
That is how I understand it all.
What is the Holy Spirit's name? Such an important person must have a name, don't you think?
Great stuff brothers, stay encouraged!
3 dimensional beings… trying to describe our triune, loving God, who created time, space and all matter.
What an amazing thing that He stepped into His creation, to reveal Himself to us, and pay the price that we may come to know and love Him back
I have never heard such thought and verbal gymnastics.
Right from the beginning saying that the word bible is not used in the bible as an example to explain why the word trinity is not in the bible is disingenuous.. The word bible (Byblos) describes what it is and not any of its contents. A Dickens novel is a book even though the word book doesn't appear in its pages. I'm afraid It doesn't get any better after that nonsense.
I’m agnostic on this doctrine because I’m careful to follow 1 Corinthians 4:6, where we are specifically told not to go “beyond what is written”. I believe this doctrine has done that and thus has essentially violated what Paul said.
I also think it has the potential to be a thing that empties the Cross of its power as Paul speaks about in 1 Corinthians 1:17 and the beginning of Chapter 2. I think on this issue, we should also be Proverbs 3:5 thinkers and be extremely gracious about it and extra careful.
Just stick with what the scriptures say, and use that language. Don’t invent other doctrines or phrases that may empty the cross of its power and might even lay a stumbling block in the way of someone, which is another thing Paul stresses not to do!
For these matters, I follow all of these guidelines from the Scriptures:
Learn by us not to go beyond what is written, rightly handling the word of truth, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Do not teach any different doctrine.
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit. I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments.
Avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law or about words, for they are unprofitable and worthless, leading some to wander away into vain discussion, which promotes speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.
Insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works.
Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Hi, Greg. I am just curious to know in which aspect you believe the doctrine of the Trinity goes beyond Scripture.
1) There is one God
2) The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God
3) The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are not each other
That summarizes what the Bible teaches on the nature of God, so to not believe it would be to reject one of these three things.
Thanks!
@@biblicalworldview1 - I’m agnostic on the general idea of the Trinity, in that God is one substance, composed of 3 persons. I also wonder if it really even matters, since from my perspective most of it is a philosophical exercise which, at the end of the day, doesn’t lead to producing good works but instead has ventured into speculation.
But my biggest concern is that the church has done all of that and then placed a “you must believe this or you don’t have the correct Jesus” stamp on it. That is scary imo since it flirts with introducing infallible division by the means of a fallible interpretation by men who aren’t apostles and who didn’t write any scripture. I think the church has done this to such a degree that many of us can barely see straight and our faith rests in the wisdom of men rather than on the word of God.
@@gregmahler9506 I appreciate that, but when you reject the Trinity, you are saying either there is 1) NOT only one God, 2) The Father IS the Son or the Holy Spirit, or 3) Jesus is not God or the Holy Spirit is not God.
A true believer would believe God as He is. It's not the same as having the rapture wrong or when the millenium is. If you'd read a short book, I highly recommend "The Forgotten Trinity" by James White.
I understand being humble and agreeing that we cannot know everything about God, because He is God and we are not. But we surely ought to believe what He says about Himself in the Bible.
@@biblicalworldview1 - agnostic means something different than “reject”. However I do think that the church has swerved away from the truth due to human argumentation on issues like this. And have thus, emptied the Cross of its transforming power like Paul warned in 1 Cor 1:17 would happen if you added to the gospel or went beyond what is written.
For example, I agree that Jesus is God but God just means “elohim”. As in Psalms 82 that Jesus quoted “you are gods”. But he also didn’t posses all knowledge, lacking where the Father wasn’t lacking. Also there can only be one “Most High” Elohim. If there are 3 person who share “Most High Status” and you addresses any of them singly, they would not be the “Most High”.
Lastly, I can not make sense of a passage like this on the general Trinity rubric:
“Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.”
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ESV
There are clearly two “entities” referenced here and only one of them is ruling over the kingdom at a time.
And I think the issue here is that “God” can just mean “elohim” or spiritual being, and yet is universally translated as if it’s referring to the “Most High” father elohim.
So for example in John when it says “was with God and was God.” If God means “Elohim” or spiritual being, then it makes sense in a way that is not saying what the usual Trinity definition is saying, which is that God here means “the Most High Elohim”, a title of the Father alone.
Does this make sense?
@@biblicalworldview1 - anyways here is my current view on all of this, based on what I see in scripture:
Father = Most High Elohim
Son = Image of Most High Elohim, firstborn of the Father. Himself is Elohim, but not the Most High. Became->Jesus = permanent fusion of man and the pre-extant Son, truly man, but also truly Elohim, raised to power by the Most High Father to a status above all other created things, in charge of the Kingdom currently, but will one day hand it back over to the Most High Elohim, his Father.
Holy Spirit = emanates from the Most High Father. Himself is Elohim, but not the Most High. Indwells Jesus and believers in him, granting them divine gifts.
The God of Jesus is not a three person being. Since there is only one true God, how is it that you have a God which Jesus does not?
You're right. Jesus is the divine Son of God. If you do not know the real Father and His Son, you do not have life.
@@oftheborg
The Scripture says
Whosoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God 2jn1:9
Jesus said No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son
Again;
Jesus said O righteous Father the World have not known you but I know you and this have known that you sent me Jn17:25 Kjv
Very Very Clear Verse
JESUS SAID THE WORLD HAS NOT KNOWN GOD ALMIGHTY
Jesus said and I have DECLARED to them your NAME and will declared it that the love with which you Love me may be in them and I in them (Jn 17:26)
JESUS DECLARED TO HIS DISCIPLES THE NAME OF THE FATHER
John said this is the MESSAGE WHICH WE HAVE HEARD FROM HIM And Declared to you that GOD IS LIGHT ( 1jn1: 5 KJV)
GOD IS LIGHT
JESUS IS LIGHT
So..
JESUS IS THE NAME OF THE FATHER
John said Only ONE SAT on the throne Rev 4:2
Paul said Jesus Throne is forever and ever heb1: 8
Question
Where is the Throne of Others..? If God is 3 person..?
Where is the Throne of Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect..?
God is One and ALONE
Before me there was NO GOD formed, neither shall there be AFTER ME
God was manifest in the flesh (1tim3:16)
His name is,== JESUS
(Not Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect.)
John said for many deceivers have gone out into the World who do not confess Jesus Christ come in the flesh, this is Deceiver An Antichrist 2 Jn1:7
Jesus said the first of all the commandment is HEAR O ISRAEL the Lord our God is One Lord Mark 12:29
Question
Who is One Lord..?
Answer
Paul said Jesus Christ is One Lord (1Cort 8:6)
I am the Lord and there is none else, THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME, I girded thee though thou has not known me Isa 45:5
One Lord one faith and One baptism
One God and Father of all
Paul said but even if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you let him be Accursed (Gal 1: 8)
Where's your verse for "Jesus is the divine son of God"?
Jesus calls Peter "blessed" in Matthew 16 for getting his identity right.
Jesus explains in John 14:10-11 that God INDWELLS him.
If he were God, that would be a ridiculous thing to say.
And the first letter of John would look VERY different if the Trinity were true and Jesus were God.
Would he really repeat his warning in 1st John 4:2-3 if Jesus were divine???
The man you replied to has an excellent TH-cam channel which you would do well to watch.
Correct
@@leenieledejo6849 John 10:33-3- The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
So much clarity here. Thank you Sean and Fred.
I’ve got a question Sean: I just recently heard the term modalism, and I heard in your conversation. How is this thinking heretical?
I am not the authority on the subject but I can try to answer; I think it’s because the Father and Word/Son and the Spirit have eternally existed as distinct persons, and if each were merely different ‘modes’ of God than perhaps they are less than God. But we need our Savior to be fully God and fully Man to secure our salvation. I’m sure there are better answers but I believe the answer is in this area.
Modalism is heresy because it removes the distinction between the persons of the trinity, instead proposing that God is one person who expresses himself in three different forms, ie a man can be a father, a husband, and a coach. Modalism teaches that the father son and Holy Spirit are three roles the one person of God plays, rather than the orthodox trinitarian view which states the father son and Holy Spirit and three distinct persons who share one divine essence.
I needed this video. Thanks. I like the term Threeness of God and I have a suggestion for all those who think of God as Father (1) + Son (1) + HS(1) = 3 Persons...How about we say Father (1) x Son (1) x HS (1) = 1 Person
Trinitarian = one God in three Persons.
That’s modalism, a heresy. I think you’re misunderstanding what ‘person’ means when God is being addressed.
@@ChristineLynnForTheWin Hi ChristineLynn. Thanks for the comment. I like the way you made your comment. It was gracious. I wish you could go a little further and help me understand how I might be heretical.
The Trinitarian Doctrine has really fascinated me lately, as well as the Resurrection, as well as...pretty much everything else! That being said, this interview was really insightful, Sean.
I think the concept of the Trinity will always be a topic of debate. It's a very complicated thing for people to conceptualize, myself included. The way that I see it now, as a believer in the Trinity, is this: if God is the perfect being, then I should expect several aspects of His essence and nature to be beyond me. That doesn't mean I won't try to understand it, but I have to be okay with the fact that I won't get to "figure it all out" if that makes sense.
Since God is the perfect being, then why would it be out of the realm of possibility to consider that He could be one essence with 3 persons? I think this is where people get caught up again. As humans, each individual is one person, as far as we currently know! But if we base our premise on solely a human perspective, then we've already forgotten his "beyondness."
Anyway, thanks so much! I'm sure you get this all the time, but your content has really lit a fire in me to study apologetics and theology, and to really start looking more closely at my faith and why I believe what I do. Who knows? Perhaps one day I'll be in one of your classes!
Take care!
Glad you enjoyed. Hope this helped satisfy your fascination a bit.
The trinity is the test strip for Christian indoctrination. If you can stifle cognitive dissonance enough to believe that MONOtheism can be carried out by 3 gods, then you can be manipulated to believe anything.
It’s actually fairly ingenious if your goal is control. (Which, if it’s not, why have sermons at all? Just read your Bible, don’t listen to anyone else interpret for you)
there is no debate if you define the Trinity. Just recite the athanasian creed.
@@jperez7893 OH, but there IS a, "DEBATE!" The, "Athanasian Creed," is
Not BIBLICAL-----It was Crafted by the Corrupt Roman Catholic religion!
The term, "trinity' didn't even EMERGE onto the Churchworld until the
Late 2nd--Early, 3rd Centuries.
Historical FACT.
AND;
The term trinity is found NOWHERE in the HEBREW, or, GREEK
Languages.
Amen.
You can believe whatever you want, but that does not make it more true.
interestingly in John 16:7 Jesus says:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
I wonder why? I seems like there is a limitation, which can't be right
"seems like there is a limitation, which can't be right" You would be correct, God is not limited, I think you probably need to check the original language/culture to understand the phrase "if I do not go away." In their culture certain conditionals didn't mean what they mean today.
The Trinity for me is the hardest thing to understand.. when you read the bible, Jesus is praying to the father (third person) when Jesus gets baptised by John, As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”.. How are we supposed to get that all this is just one person. Is Jesus talking to himself, praising himself......... So difficult this to fathom in a logical sense, and like most, i do want to get this right, but i can see why some people can think this is some paganism creeping in to the early church... What makes more sense to me is, God is so divine, and outside time and space, not of this universe, that he needs divine holy Channels of communication, which is the Father, son and holy spirit... and again....... Jesus says the only way to God is through me, Jesus Christ. (God in the third person again) it just fries your brain the more you think about it, because all the evidence is there, that this trinity theory, in the way they want you to believe, is wrong, and made up, in a way, to stop it seeming like there is more than one God, so they have to come up with this convoluted idea, because without it, then we are getting into 3 Gods and paganism. We Accept Angels speaking for God, but they are not God, so why does Jesus have to be God, to be a representative of God, why cant he just be like Angel Gabriel who came to Mary. how can Jesus be God, when Jesus is sitting on the right side of God... Non of it makes any sense to me..
It makes no sense because it is false. There is no trinity. There is only one God, the God of our lord Jesus Christ.
John 14:10-11
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John 10:30
"30 I and my Father are one."
John 14:20
"20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
Matthew 3:16
"16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"
Colossians 1:19
"19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;"
Colossians 2:9
"9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
Matthew 28:19
"19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Or when God describes himself in plural in Genesis 1:26
Genesis 1:26
"26 And God said, Let us make man in our image..."
@@-Pierre
Do you think all of these John verses tell us that Jesus is God?
John “17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”KJV
Hmmmm. It says here that all of Jesus’ disciples are one with him and with the Father. And that they are in them. Does that mean all of Jesus’ disciples are God too? Be consistent.
Colossians verses.
1Corinthians “6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”KJV
John “2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.”KJV
Where does God dwell? In a temple right? Jesus is the temple of God. We are also the temple of God if we have the spirit of God dwelling within us. Again, according to your reading of scripture, all of Jesus’ disciples are God as well.
A temple is the house God dwells in. The fullness of God dwells in his temple. God dwelled in the temple in Jerusalem, do you mistake that temple as being God as well? Again, be consistent.
Mathew 28:29 what name do we baptize in? According to Acts, we baptize in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts “2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”KJV
Is Gods name Jesus? No, Gods name is YHWH. Do Jesus and God have the same name? According to revelation they do not.
Revelation “3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”KJV
Another interesting tidbit regarding Acts 2:38. The Holy Spirit is a gift. Is a person a gift?
Mathew 3:16. Ironically, this so called trinity proof text actually shows the moment that the word became flesh in a 30 year old man Jesus of Nazareth, absolutely destroying the trinitarian interpretation of John 1. Don’t take my word for it, see the testimony of the witness John provided in John 1.
Genesis “1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”KJV
You might have wanted to read just one verse farther.
God was not alone in heaven when he created man BY HIMSELF. There were also angels present.
When you start using plural pronouns to try to prove a trinity, you are actually acknowledging the fact that you worship more than one god. Is that really what you want to do?
Perhaps you should think it through.
@@driller7714 You present a fairly coherent case as to why the doctrine of the Trinity should be examined. Yet, I think you overreach in your assumptions and do not take the whole of Scripture into consideration. You would probably say the same thing about those, like myself, who believe the Trinity to be correct doctrine.
To answer your critiques and questions:
In John 17, what is the "one" that Jesus is speaking of? Is it one in being? If it is, then you can say that your interpretation is correct. However, if it is not, then you are simply reading your viewpoint into the text. The context would seem to point to a oneness of purpose - "so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me...I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." John 17:23 and 26. This would support the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons, one being, and one in purpose.
In Colossians, Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation." This is referring to his place as ruler of all creation, his pre-eminence as eternal God. "In him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell" and "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily". Jesus is truly God and truly man. See also Philippians 2:5-11.
Regarding the temple, the verse you quoted states that the Holy Ghost dwells in us. If God dwells in us and the Holy Ghost dwells in us, this would support the Trinity - that the Holy Ghost IS God. Acts 7:48-49 says, "Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says, 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?'" Jesus's body was the temple of God - as the Colossians and Philippians passages demonstrate - precisely because He was literally God made flesh (John 1:14). You could also reference Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 9:6, Romans 8:3.
I assume you mean Matthew 28:19 - and we baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The Greek here supports the oneness of being and the separate persons. Basically, it is three "whos" (persons) and one "what" (being). Also, the "in" can be translated as "into", which would support the oneness of purpose from John 17 that Jesus prayed for his followers. This would also clarify the Acts 2:38 statement. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him. (John 14:6) Thus, being baptized in the name of Jesus is being baptized INTO the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (God).
Is God's name Jesus? Technically, no, the name of the Son is Yeshua. The name that God gives Moses is YHWH, or I AM. Yet, Jesus says in John 8:58: "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." He also says this in John 18:5 and 8. The term in Greek is "ego eimi" - this is how the Septuagint translates Exodus 3:14. See also in John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." The response by the Jews in John 8 and 10 is telling - they pick up stones to stone Jesus. Why? John 10:33: the Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." The Jewish people recognized immediately what Jesus claimed - that he WAS God. Not a representative or a creation of God, but the same being.
Revelation 3:12 - what is the new name? Revelation 19:11-13 would seem to answer that question: "Faithful and True" and "The Word of God." Thus, in Revelation 3:12, those who keep his word through patient endurance and hold fast to what they have will be called Faithful and True.
I would not call Matthew 3:16-17 a "proof-text" for the Trinity, but it does seem to show the difference in person between the Father and the Son and the Spirit. As to the Holy Spirit being a gift and your question "Can a person be a gift?" - the answer quite clearly is yes, a person can be a gift. In Ephesians 4:11-12, people as gifts are given to the church "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ..." The Holy Spirit is God - clearly seen in Acts 5:3-4. Additionally, the Holy Spirit is a person - he calls people and has work for them to do (Acts 13:1-3) is one example. As to Matthew "absolutely destroying the trinitarian interpretation of John 1" - I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. Jesus is God, he is co-eternal and co-equal with God. The Greek structure of John 1:1 makes that abundantly clear.
Genesis 1:26-27 - the word for God in all of Genesis 1 is elohim. It is a plural form of the word eloah. Now, compare to Deuteronomy 4:35: YHWH is haelohim. Therefore, the plural form of God in Genesis 1, elohim, is also YHWH according to Deuteronomy 4:35. Indeed, this verse states that there is no other God beside him. How can a plural (elohim) also be a singular (YHWH)? The doctrine of the Trinity answers this question. God is one in being and three in person. Look at Isaiah 42:8: "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else, nor share my praise with carved idols." Yet Jesus receives worship from the disciples (John 20:24-29; Matthew 14:33 and 28:9). In Revelation 19:9-10, John falls down to worship the angel, but is told "You must not do that!...Worship God." If it is wrong to worship anyone but God and God himself says that He will not share His glory with another, how can Jesus say "glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."? (John 17:5) The only way this can happen is if Jesus IS God. And the doctrine of the Trinity presents this view, which is coherent with the whole teaching of Scripture.
Is God addressing the angels when He speaks of creating man in Genesis 1:26? Nowhere in the Bible do we see the angels taking part in creation - Job 38 references them shouting for joy at the foundation of the earth, but they are not part of the creation process. Additionally, if God is a singular person, then He could not have had attributes clearly associated with God, especially love. "God does not live in temples made by human hands, nor is He served by humans, as if He needed anything." Acts 17:24-25. Yet, if God was singular, the only way He could love would be to create - which would mean that He did need something from humans. This, too, points to the triune nature of the Godhead.
Not adding anything of value here other than to say, you are not alone in this brain understanding disconnect. I’ve always believed the Trinity and it wasn’t until recently when trying to figure out how to pray to God the Father as Christ gives the example, that I pray to God the Father, through Christ the Son in the Holy Spirit. A hierarchy always comes to my mind… the God the Father is the Almighty, Christ the Son is the Savior, Messiah, ordained and given Authority by the Father and the Holy Spirit is His omnipresence aspect.. we’re trying to describe a concept that is beyond space and time with words that are limited by the constructs He ordained. Is it enough to say the Christ is my Savior, sent by God the Father and once you accept His salvation, He provides the Holy Spirit to seal and direct us? Do we have to understand the Trinity to be saved? I’m not sure… if God the Father gives Christ the Son Authority, it’s His to give anyway, so that makes Christ God anyway. I’m not smart enough to know how that might break things down further in scripture and possibly cause more questions or contradictions. Trinity to me, is just the word used for explaining how the Three have all Authority and are holy, worthy of praise and worship. Maybe in there we lose the personhood of the Holy Spirit to just sound like an entity, I don’t believe that. All this to say, people have been discussing this deeply for centuries, there must be some depth to arguments we do not agree with that we could understand why/how they can think that way. Maybe this is an in house discussion that doesn’t necessarily take someone out of the realm of salvation? I’ve been a Christian for almost 25 years, the doc of Trinity has always been difficult to understand, but clearly there is a relationship between the Three that is above all. I am a Trinitarian but only in as much as I can’t explain the Godness of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in any other way that does not devalue Son and Holy Spirit. Clearly, Jesus is Savior - worthy of worship!!! - clearly the Holy Spirit is holy and even the “unforgivable sin” relates to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, so He is essential too. Remember that God is just but merciful, this is important absolutely, but will He have mercy in not fully understanding the relationship between the Three? I believe so.
ive heard so many definitions of the trinity i gave up referring to it
Trinitarians can’t even agree on one theory
@@cc3775 This is so dumb, because it is false.
Since there are different metaphysical views about God, it is natural to see many ways of defining the Trinity.
@@AaronOfJerusalemAndAthens Jesus explained who God wss
bv14 john 18:37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason
I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth.
Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
@@raysalmon6566 Jesus didn't give us a metaphysical discussion on the nature of God.
Nehemiah 9:6
“You are the Lord, you ALONE. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.
God is one🙏
I'm curious why Sr. Sanders said a person should pray mostly to God, sometimes to Jesus, and it's ok or not unbiblical to pray to the Holy Spirit. Since the Trinity is One person, why should or does it matter which name one uses?
I LOVE this. I grew up in a cult that denied the Trinity. It called it a "doctrine of demons" and that it was polytheism. Since I understood it (to the limited degree of human comprehension) I fell in love with the Trinity. The way you did it is the way I did it! 1. There is ONE God. 2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. 3. They are not each other. And I do the same thing with honing in on the part with which they disagree. I like how James White puts it -- there is one What (Being): God, and there are three whos. So it's not like we're saying 1 = 3, or 1 + 1+ 1 = 1 as we are straw manned at times, because the numbers on both side of the equal side do not represent the SAME THING.
I also agree that we should stay away from "object lessons" (states of matter, triangles, eggs, etc.) because they ALL fall short and fail in some way, and that's a GOOD thing. This is GOD. He is like nothing in all creation. He is unique and set apart. He is other.
Glad you enjoyed, thanks for watching!
Special pleading 101.
3 =/= 1
3 = 1 but the equal sign doesn’t count
Question for you: if God is unique and set apart, then how can he interact in this world that is not part of him? And if he is part of nature but set apart from us then why did he make us “in his image”? No one has ever been able to tell me what parts of humanity are godly and what parts are ‘set apart’ from god…
@@logan666 I'd reread my comment, because you are committing a Straw Man fallacy regarding the 3 =/= 1, etc. You have to respond to my actual argument.
You are set apart from a computer you may build, but you can certainly interact with it despite being outside of it.
We are distinct from animals in that we have the capacity to reason, as God does with volition, as God has.
We are moral beings, while animals are amoral.
So in some ways we are like God (made in His image) in ways that nothing else in all creation is. But the ways in which God is set apart from us is almost infinite. He is holy, righteous, perfectly good, omniscient, omnipotent, Spirit, etc. We are none of those things.
@@logan666 This requires SCRIPTURE, my friend...Not Math!
@@biblicalworldview1 Exegetical Hermeneutics are required to
determine Biblical Truth, my friend.
GOD is ONE ( SPIRIT.).
HE IS ONE ( LORD).
Jesus, on the other hand-----Is NOT a, Spirit.
GOD bless.
Yes. It is a problem if takes you an hour to explain a core belief of your faith.
Context matters. He answered several questions and didn't just monologue for an hour straight as you're suggesting here.
@Nikki Lengyel maybe but an hour on this is a little down syndromish
@@nikkilengyel Part of explaining sounding complex is to answer questions. I didn't realize if I didn't explicitly explain that, some of the readers would think I meant an hour monologue.
@@_.Leo_. It's not "downsyndromeish". It's a very complex, abstract, and counterintuitive concept.
It's a hard problem..
Amen, brother! Jesus never seemed to be able to explain this “important” doctrine. He spent a lengthy amount of time, in the sermon on the mount, to teach us how to live, yet he couldn't spend even ten minutes to reveal to teach about the trinity to Jews who never heard of it, even telling a Samaritan that her people don't know what they worship, but that we Jews know what we worship - even though the Jews didn't know anything about a trinity.
At 29 minutes the guest says that all church fathers say that the trinity is straight from the Bible. Is this really the case?
"When one does speak of unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say the last quadrant of the 4th century ... Herein lies the difficulty. On the one hand, it was the dogmatic formula "one God in Three Persons" that would henceforth for more than 15 centuries structure and guide the Trinitarian essence of the Christian message ... On the other hand, the formula itself does not reflect the immediate consciousness of the period of origins; it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development." - New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p.295
"The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." - Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, 1965 p. 899.
"This does not mean however, that we consider the traditional Scripture proof text method as mandatory or even possible. In the sense of definition the doctrive of Trinity is stated nowhere in Scripture." - The Encyclopedia of the Lutheran Church, 1965, vol. III, p. 2414
What a gross twisting of quotes. All these say is the obvious, that the word and definition of trinity are not explicitly stated in scripture. What the guest said is that all the fathers used scripture to support the trinity, and that the trinity IS foundationally based in scripture. This is most certainly true. How dare you have the arrogance to think the God would let his church commit complete and total blasphemy for 2000 years.
I want to tell you the fascinating story about when the Trinity verse was added to the Bible. This is a well-documented fact, detailed in "Whose Word Is It?: The Story Behind Who Changed the New Testament and Why" by Professor Bart Ehrman, an expert in biblical textual criticism.
In the 16th century, Erasmus, a Dutch scholar, produced the first printed edition of the Greek New Testament. The New Testament was originally written in Greek, but had been translated into Latin over the centuries. Erasmus aimed to create a critical scholarly edition based on Greek texts, relying mainly on late medieval manuscripts from the 12th century.
Erasmus’s edition of the Greek New Testament was later used by the translators of the King James Bible and other versions until the end of the 19th century. However, the Greek manuscripts Erasmus used were not of high quality and were produced about eleven hundred years after the originals. For example, his main manuscript for the gospels included the story of the woman taken in adultery and the last verses of Mark, which were not part of the original gospels.
One key passage missing from Erasmus’s manuscripts was 1 John 5:7-8, known as the Johannine Comma, which explicitly supports the doctrine of the Trinity. This passage is found in Latin Vulgate manuscripts but not in the majority of Greek manuscripts. The King James Version includes this verse: "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."
Bart Ehrman notes, "The Greek manuscripts that Erasmus used were not of the best quality... produced some eleven hundred years after the originals." Erasmus did not find this verse in any Greek manuscripts he consulted, so he omitted it from his first edition. This omission outraged theologians of his time, who accused him of tampering with the text. Erasmus reportedly agreed to include the verse in future editions if a Greek manuscript containing it could be produced. Consequently, a Greek manuscript was created in the 16th century, likely by translating the Latin text into Greek. Despite his reservations, Erasmus included the verse in subsequent editions.
These editions formed the basis for the King James Bible and other translations for centuries. The phrase "Textus Receptus" refers to this widely accepted form of the Greek text, despite its reliance on inferior manuscripts. Modern textual scholars now insist on using older and better manuscripts to base the Greek New Testament on scientific principles.
The Textus Receptus, though still revered by some fundamentalists, is based on late medieval manuscripts, whereas earlier manuscripts, such as the Codex Sinaiticus, do not contain the Johannine Comma or other later additions. Ehrman explains, "This passage... states the doctrine directly and succinctly," but it "was not in Erasmus's primary manuscript or in any of the others that he consulted." This realization challenges the solid basis for the Trinity doctrine in the Bible, making it difficult for some Christians to accept.
It is true that there is through the New Testament the motive of Father, son, and Spirit, however this does no mean that their relationship agrees with the doctrine of the Trinity as it has been stated since 325 AD.. There are many problems that arise when we try to make sense of Jesus preexisting as God also. There are ontological problems to start with. From scripture, and studying what Adam was made of, we can see that he was made from the dust of the ground and then God breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living being. A human, then it is made of a physical body and the spirit that comes from God, so in the case of Jesus, Jesus’s body made of flesh received a spirit from God, so if we assume Jesus preexisted, where does he fit in in the body and spirit already made in the womb of Mary? Unless we say the spirit given to that body is Jesus, which that creates problems already. The angel Gabriel spoke of that child in the future tense, there was not a hint of a preexisting person coming down into Mary either. Furthermore, as we know, God is Spirit, according to Jesus, and God also never changes his nature, being human is a special creation of God, and to think God changes or can change his nature, is not scriptural or fits our understanding of who God is. Jesus, according to Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5, is a man, and so is the opinion of Peter as in Acts 2:14-36. Despite of a few verses which are used to prove Jesus’s divinity, Paul never refers to Jesus as God in any of his salutations in his letters. With respect to the Spirit, Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 10-11, shows us that the Spirit is not a separate person, but it is part of the Father, it comes from within the Father in a similar way with us, we have a spirit within us, God also has a Spirit within him called the Holy Spirit. So the model of God being a Trinity is incorrect and incoherent with the whole panoply of the Scriptures.
Pharisees, making the trinity a doctrinal requirement for salvation...
So the thief on the cross gets a pass...but everyone after , no.....please. The audacity of man to place this as a requirement, when the first hundred years didn't "articulate" this doctrine.
Each person will be judged according to the degree of Revelation he or she had. The thief on the cross had so much time left to figure things out, and he did. Most of us have decades. Let's be faithful and keep (and not deny) that amount of truth that was revealed to us.
What do you think is necessary for salvation?
@@nymbusDeveloper86 where does that end, though? People who have never heard of Jesus or God at all, how shall they be judged?
@@ianmartinesq Read the book of Romans chapter 2 and 3 in the NT. Paul explains there. If it is still not clear, go to Romans chapters 9-11.
There's a degree to where human understanding of this is limited. However which of the tenets of the doctrine can you reject and still worship the God of the Bible?
1. There is ONE God.
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
3. Neither is the other. (They personally relate to one another.)
Maybe you can make a case for #3 if someone just doesn't understand it, but if they reject it, they are worshiping a god that is different than God's revelation in the Bible. The thief on the cross didn't have access to the New Testament.
19:16 As a Catholic I think Thomas Aquinas's doctrine of the analogy might help here.
Well, I'll at least give you guys credit for tacitly admitting that 1) there's a big problem in logic here, and 2) finding the Trinity in the Bible is difficult.... So at least you showed some honesty here. Some. But then it's an uphill battle making sense of this dogma.
Fortunately for me, I was raised by people who were agnostics and Unitarians, so I never had to buy into this stuff. Thank you, God, for that! Praise God for giving me a brain, so I could reject propositions such as "1 = 3" just as I reject "P and not P."
You guys should have stuck with modalism. You would have avoided so much paradoxical reasoning
Modalism doesn’t explain the biblical data. When Jesus was baptized how could the Father appear as a voice from the heavens and the Holy Spirit appear as a dove? Matthew 3:16-17. Modalism doesn’t account for bilocation.
@@ianmartinesqsounds like you have more than one deity
@@TheContrarian32 Not at all. God the Son, the Memra, is an emanation of God. Where was God when he was on the mercy seat? Was no one running the universe? Surely not. As an emanation of God the Father, the Word and the Spirit of God can appear on earth while God the father remains enthroned in heaven. There are two rules of doping out the Trinity. You can’t split the being or “essences” and you can’t collapse the loci of thought, ie confuse the persons. God can have emanations and those emanations can even have a perspective and thought process and there not be more than one God.
@@ianmartinesq Trinitarians misrepresent the monarchian proposing that we teach a sequential modalism ( That is when he is Father he cannot be Son, and that God must change from one mode to another). THIS is all falsehood. There is even no evidence that the Monarchian teachers of Old ( Sabellius, Praxeaus etc) and the Oneness teachers of Today. DAVID Bernard, STEVEN Ritchie etc teach a sequential modalism. We believe God is Omnipresent, and he can be Father and Son at the same time. JUST as Israel had the presence of God as the pillar of cloud and fire in their camp and the same time as God reigning in his throne in heaven. The Baptism issue is easily settled with an understanding of the omnipresence of God. I challenge any Trinitarian to provide any first source historical quote that the Modalist of yesterday and today teach a sequential modalism.
@@samuellundin5328 can you clearly and distinctly distinguish your position from what you term the Trinitarian position? But I think you mean the Athanasian position. But before I discuss misrepresentations or misunderstandings or whatever, I would first like to be clear on what you say your position is.
It’s not only the word “Trinity” which is not in Scripture. The concept that God is three persons in one being is completely absent from Scripture. In order to come up with the Trinity, you have to take a verse from here and a verse from there and put them together to make a theory. The problem is that no New Testament writer ever talked about this idea. There are only verses that seem to hint at it. That is not nearly enough to consider something a Scriptural doctrine, much less central to biblical faith! Just stick with biblical terms and you won’t end up with man’s teaching. Remember, Jesus told Peter that it was not flesh and blood that revealed who he is, but the Father in heaven. And what did the Father reveal? That Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God (see Matthew 16).
You are absolutely wrong. You do not know Scripture!
Every time I hear someone try to explain the 3 in 1 trinity I get a huge headache. It just absolutely makes zero sense that Jesus speaks to himself in the Bible.
The only trouble I have understanding the “same authority” argument is that only God knows the time of the second coming. Not even Jesus knows that, or has the authority to make it happen. I’m not questioning it, necessarily, I just don’t understand it.
Plus Jesus said point blank that the "Father is greater than me". Plus Jesus is a High Priest of God, which by definition makes him lower in authority. Plus Jesus said point blank that he was given his authority by God, plus plus plus...
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Jesus never once said he was God. In fact he said the opposite often. Jesus wasn't praying to himself!
So sad. Did you even listen to the post!! So so sad. So so so much you need to learn about being a disciple of wisdom as the Bereans were. Humility is the key to understanding.
@@paulenzor6993 So since I'm right and you can't say anything against that you just say so so sad since it doesn't agree with your brainwashing. How pathetic! I assume you also worship Paul using Jesus' name in vain.
John 8:58 Jesus calls himself the I AM and the Jewish crowd picks up stones to stone him, doing exactly what the OT commands them to do to someone who claims to be God. That crowd knew EXACTLY what he was saying, and they'd disagree with your statement.
Simply not true. The eyewitness testimony presented in the gospels is clear about that. Jesus made clear claims that he is the God of Israel, and his followers understood this, and his enemies understood this.
@@BM-si2ei Your welcome to believe that Pagan nonsense and ignore the loafs of evidence to the contrary if you want.
Trinity seems to be trending and continues to confuse: so here’s an analogy by way of explanation. Water is H20. Ice is H20. Steam is H20. None of these have the same form but all share the same compound. Father, Son & Holy Ghost. None share the same form but all are God.
Uh no. Bad analogy. No one should use analogies or metaphors to explain the Trinity. They all far apart.
That sounds more like a modalism approach. Different modes, instead of different persons, with that comparison.
Can the same molecule of water be in THREE DIFFERENT PLACES at the same time ??!
Oh, so you want to use Physics when convenient and ignore Physics when convenient.
LOL
@@sanjeevgig8918 your ignorance is overwhelming: God is Spirit not molecules : it a bad analogy and you are only debunking a bad analogy ! LOL 😆
@@davidjanbaz7728 AND you have NO EVIDENCE. ONLY CLAIMS and more CLAIMS ... like your previous 25 idiotic replies to me.
HA HA HA HA
Dr. Sanders is goated
One example of an illustration of how creation mimics aspects of the Trinity is space. It has three directions which are exactly equal in function yet space cannot exist without all three of those directions. Yet we think of one space in which all reality exists. Time reveals another aspect of God in that the Father gives the son and Spirit comes from them. That is the Energy motion and matter continuum. They each require the existence of both of the other. Also time reflects the triune Ness. Time is future present and past. Mimicking Father from whom the Son proceeds to the gift of the Holy Spirit.
And our reality requires all three aspects of space, time, and the matter-motion-energy. So we can see how creation reveals God's character.
Hey guys bugs have 3 parts, head thorax and abdomen, isn’t god great!?? 🥰
the trinity is a problem since not even all christians accept that concept.
Since when does the truth of a concept depend on people believing it? Fallacious comment.
@TheChristianLife And one more ignorant christian. Yes, it is very true that christians do not agree on the trinity. One rather famous example of a christian who was an antitrinitarian is Isaac Newton.
"That's not true it doesn't matter what you believe not all people that believe that can explain it just as well."
Lots of "Christians" don't believe a lot of things. That term has lost much meaning
If a person rejects the actual Trinity, they reject God as He is and therefore cannot be a Christian. It's okay to be confused in some way or not able to fully grasp it, because we're talking about the infinite God revealing Himself to finite and limited humans.
@@velkyn1 Then Newton was not a Christian, but a theist. There's a difference between not fully grasping it, and actually rejecting Jesus' divine nature.
Fred Sanders is great.
Hey! Nice seeing you here Mike! Loved having Fred on the show.
You would think so with your total lack of accurate knowledge.
Sean, a great conversation. I wish you brought up Triunity Vs Trinity. That seems to be a term thrown around in Christian circles and I believe it's a different understanding of scripture.
No, different terms, same meaning.
I say Trinity as Holy Trinity, where there are two divine and one human, but all holy. I guess a divine Trinity would be Triunity, meaning one nature, not one purpose alone.
@@simonskinner1450 I know of no other (especially theologian who makes that distinction.
@@jeffdowns1038 It was admitted that the OT, that the Jews lived by, did not express a Holy Trinity. The OT did however say a man would be raised from his people under the law as the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18, this man was not expected to be God, and only had the presence of God in him by baptism. I was baptised CofE but the NT never taught me Jesus could ever do miracles with the Spirit of God in him, he impersonated his Father.
@@simonskinner1450 Friend, what you say is interesting and I disagree. But, you have changed the subject. You said, I wish you brought up Triunity Vs Trinity. That seems to be a term thrown around in Christian circles and I believe it's a different understanding of scripture.
I'm asking, what theologians have you read that make the distinction you think is there. I'm saying the words are used, in Christians circles, interchangeably.
The Church kidnapped the Jewish Scriptures and translated it into Greek and made a new Christological order, to make it go over easy from Malachi to Matthew.
Trinity makes no sense. God is one and singular.
Correct. God is one. This is basic Trinitarian theology.
@@Mic1904 ONE WHAT?
You make NO Sense, whatsoever.
@@raygsbrelcik5578God is one God
Humans try to put God into our realm and use human concepts to attribute Him with such as unitarianism. If God is superior in all ways, then multi-personal is the way to go
There is a lot about God that makes no sense. God does not need to fall within the perameters of human understanding to be God.
Agreed.
So, who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity?
This is a nonsense
From an intuitive and practical lense, I've been sort of able to articulate the reason that God manifests as the Trinity, and why those 3 aspects are distinct persons.
The Bible says God is invisible and that nobody has seen Him(except Jesus).
In the very act of making himself known and interecting with creatures/creations apart from Himself, he must make himself known in a tangible way.
How do beings make themselves known and get things done? Their words and their body.
Because God is Eternal, his "Word", which belongs to Him, would then also be eternal.
But for something to be Eternal like God, it must also be God.
That expression of His invisible nature is expressed through His Word.
Which is why we see "the Angel of the Lord" appearing in the Old Testament and speaking as God in the first person.
The word angel means "messenger", so this angel is His exclusive messenger, His Word/begotten Son.
And like the scenario with Gideon and Manoa, many people knew they had literally "seen God" when they saw this "angel" and feared they would die.
So why didn't they and why did Jacob not die when wrestling God or Moses when speaking to Him face to face?
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Because they encountered The IMAGE/WORD of the invisible God, not the raw form of God's glory contained within the being of the Father.
If something is exactly like something, it is that something.
Hebrews says he's the "radiance of the Glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature".
But this is also the case with the Holy Spirit.
When a person comes in the room, you can sense their presence, right?
But is their presence "them" or does it belong to them?
In the same way that the Word of God is a life of it's own because He's united to the Eternal Father, so is it with God's presence.
That presence belongs TO the Father, but because it's externally tied to Him, it takes on a life of it's own as well.
The One God perfectly works through all 3 persons in a seamless manner.
The Father creates all things by the Son through the Holy Spirit.
That's why the very fundamental nature of reality holds to a Triune pattern:
Universe: Space/time/matter
States of matter: Solid, liquid, gas
Atoms: Electrons, protons, neutrons
Humans: Spirit, soul, body and Mother, Father, child.
God is unlike anything in creation, but we can see his "reflection" to get a greater look at what he actually looks like in comparison.
So if God is 3 person's with 1 nature, the opposite reflection of that is 1 person with 3 natures(Spirit, soul, body).
So we're the only creatures made in his image and likeness, whereas everything else is just made in His image.
Through procreation mankind can eternally continue generate offspring and create a Kingdom to rule over.
This is a reflection of the Eternal "generation" of the Son from The Father reigning over the heavenly Kingdom.
Likewise, the bonds of love shared between a man and a women reveal that God is love, just like Paul says.
Love is only valid when it's shared, so how could God BE love with nobody to share it with?
The Trinity solves this problem because the 3 persons in the Trinity have been sharing in love for eternity.
Experiencing the ecstatic pleasure of being one and eternally generating essence and being.
Through the incarnation, God's intention was to make us all His bride to become One flesh in the same way he is one flesh with the Father.
"Be in them as I am in you and you are in me".
With this Triune paradigm within the One God, God was also able to legitimately take on humanity, live the perfect human life by example, and also singlehandedly combine human DNA with God's nature and carry it into Heaven to act as a catalyst between God and man.
He calls himself the door, because on the other side of Him is the presence of God.
We pass through the door by knowing who he revealed himself to be as our human Messiah, and on the other side we encounter his Deity and are likewise glorified with Him.
This is why the Bible says we're "seated in Heavenly places".
In God's omnipresence, he is vicariously connecting all humans to Himself like a WiFi router.
If we have Faith in him, the Wi-Fi of the Holy Spirit gets activated.
God's entire plan all along was to fill the Earth with his knowledge and presence.
He's so glorious that his full glory kills any living creature just from his presence, but now that he's filling the Earth with seeds of His Holy Spirit, we'll be transformed to be just like him when he appears in His True glorious form.
That's why we must partake in his flesh and blood and move from glory to glory, because you are what you eat and he's returning for a spotless bride.
We need to renew our wineskins or we'll burst when he appears in Glory.
Romans 8 says all creation groans awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God because it was subjected to futility at the fall.
So creation fell with mankind through Adam, but through Christ, the new man, all creation will be glorified with mankind.
This is because we're made from the dust of the Earth, so it responds to us.
The whole reason for Christ coming was to reconcile and fill all things, and this equation only makes sense with the Trinity.
Jesus is LORD 🔥 😊 🙏
Very excellent thoughts!
It seems the best way to answer “does someone need to believe in the Trinity to be saved”, is in it’s salvivic context. Jesus says “ whoever does not honor. The son does not honor the father who sent him.“ or what Paul gets to in 2 Corinthians 5, “All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ…” christ is not acting independently apart from the father, nor is the father acting independently of the son. So what about the spirit“ Paul says, in first Corinthians,“ no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the spirit.“
So, can someone be saved apart from the doctrine of the trinity “no”, but, can someone be saved without a full understanding of how the trinity functions, and operates to its exact specifications as creator/preserver, justifier, and sanctifier, yes.
One problem in explaining the Trinityis people often describe IT AS,'three Persons in one God." The early Church Fathers never used the word"persons" in describing the Trinity as, "persons" implies three sperate egos THe Trinity is One Ego The Trinity is not 1 + 1 +1 = 1. It is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.
The Trinity first shown in establishing of the Jews.
Abraham was to model the Father, Issac modeled the beloved sacrificed son,
and the 12 son family of Jacob modeling the spirit forming the “nation” or “Kingdom”, as the spirit facilitated the Church through 12. R
My understanding of the trinity came to me years ago. Very simply! The person of the father is invisible, person of the son is visible and he created all we see past, present and future. And the holy spirit is our connection in knowing God. All scripture based. Simple!!!
Only b/c there was a discussion of analogies in the video do I make this comment - also, I understand the problems with it, but the best example I’ve been able to think of that I’ve not heard anyone pose is this: If we are made in the image of God (not to become “gods” ourselves, but to be able to have a relationship with him), could we say that humans (even though we are created) are an example of the Trinity - Physical beings (like Jesus coming in the form of a man), with a mind / intellect (like the Father), and a spirit (like the Holy Spirit). All a part of one “being”, but can be distinct.
Just a thought.
Yes the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one in the form of Jesus Christ the Son. God is one Spirit and is Holy so it is clear he is called the Holy Spirit, This Spirit is the Spirit of God and there is only one God who is the Father. Thus is the Spirit of the Father. The Son is God in the flesh and has the Spirit of God. So the Spirit of the Son is no different Spirit and is in the Body of God (the Son) doing the works, yet the mind behind the works is the Father. That's how I see it. Although, Jesus while walking on earth being in a lower state would also have thoughts, would be limited to the un-glorified body. He would think the thoughts given to him by the Father, which would still be the Father's thoughts but only as much as his body could handle. For example even as a child with his brain not fully developed, you can't imagine him hearing the prayers of the whole world. But in his gloried body he is limitless and has all power.
Very interesting!
Good discussion. I agree with them on pretty much everything they said except the trinity. They made a lot of claims, but with zero Scripture to back them up. Good try though.
And you don’t have to accept the trinity doctrine to be a disciple of Christ. No one in the New Testament taught it or told anyone else they have to believe in it.
I’ll just stick with what the Scriptures say. Thanks.
Gentlemen----How could Jesus ( literally) be GOD, when everything
Jesus HAD, was, "GIVEN" to him?
And YES...,I have the Scriptures to back that UP!
With utmost respect.
Amazing...at 57:50...."praying to the Holy Spirit is not unbiblical but there are no examples in scripture for it." WOW...to me it sounds as if it is unbiblical if it is not in the scriptures.
He said it’s “not unbiblical in the deeper sense”, meaning it is not contrary to scripture or against the teachings of scripture, meaning there is freedom to do so. You need to learn what unbiblical means, how to listen carefully, and how to be charitable.
If I pray, should I talk to 3 Gods? Or I just select 1?
ONE GOD FATHER have his word - he create everything with his word and since he is almighty his word can become anything so it can become flesh - Son living word of God-I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God and God have his holy Spirit- what ever you ask in my name i will do it there is one mediator between God and man , so you pray to Father in heaven in Yeshua name
see, that's the thing about God. you got options. you can talk to him or his son or the other spirit that's with them but don't be confused: there is only 1 god. lol what a joke. these creatures are idolators