Why is the Book of Revelation in the Bible?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ค. 2024
- Bart has written a new book on Revelation, titled "Armageddon - What the Bible Really Says about the End". In it, he examines the least-read and most-misunderstood book of the Bible. It will be out in late March, but you can pre-order here: bit.ly/armgddn. Pre-orders really help drive publicity, so if you're interested in the subject (and why wouldn't you be? It's The. End. Of. The. World!), get it now while it's hot!
Visit www.bartehrman.com/courses/ to shop from Bart Ehrman’s online courses and get a special discount by using code: MJPODCAST on all courses
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Revelation is the least read and most misunderstood book of the New Testament. Many readers wonder why it is in there at all. In this episode we consider the debates about Revelation in the early Church, seeing why numerous church leaders found it offensive (for reasons modern readers would not expect) and why eventually it came to be included in the canon anyway.
-Martin Luther had difficulty understanding Revelation as part of the NT - he certainly wasn’t the first person to have that struggle. How was the book received among early Christians?
Megan asks Bart:
-Do we have records of what people thought about it before the canon was finalized?
-Were early Christians more concerned about the graphic violence in the book, or about the heavily materialistic nature of the kingdom of heaven?
-Revelation was ultimately accepted as scripture. What was it that led Christian leaders to overlook its challenges and include it in the NT?
-Revelation seems to have enjoyed something of a renaissance in recent decades, with the rise of prophecy writers and popular media like the Left Behind books and movies. Has Revelation always been this popular, or is it a peculiarity of modern times?
As a kid raised in the Independent Fundamental Baptist cult, Revelations gives so much excuse to the parents in that cult permission to feed their children nightmares from the earliest age (not to mention screamings and beatings "for my own good to save me from horrible eternal damnation"). It certainly broke me. I'm still (almost 40) trying to put the pieces of my identity back together. Thank you guys for discussing this damned book. Over the last 15 years, Dr Ehrman has been a massive help to me in putting Christianity into it's proper context. Thank you so much.
You're not alone my friend, was raised in a 'born again' cult in SoCal. Oh that religious folk would awaken to the mythology and nonsense of the literal bible.
@@steveng8727 Yep me too. Raised in a strict Southern Baptist cult with a big picture of Jesus starring down at us from the main hall. I’m an old man now happy and free from this ANE tribal patriarchal apocalyptic cult (aka fundie Christianity)but it also took me decades to process.
Southern Baptist Apostate here. I still remember the Revelation nightmares vividly. I was so depressed I almost took my life. Now, my son enjoys a religion free upbringing. Amen? 😆
Yep, you're not alone, much respect to you guys! The wrestle with indoctrination is real. And I agree, F Guilt, haha
Megan is the perfect host. Knowledgeable and knows how to steer the conversation and ask substantive questions to prompt him to new topics while keeping with the central subject matter
(also she’s a babe)
She is Woke!
@@hassanmirza2392 Do you know exactly what the term "woke" means?
I find that it is just a very simple way for lazy thinkers to insult someone.
@@petergaskin1811
Read Quran bro!
@@hassanmirza2392
And you be slope?
I’d like to thank Megan for her hard work to make these videos possible. Kudos, Megan and thanks.
Bart is like an archetype of a great professor of learning, a role we need more to fill.
I'm a Buddhist almost my entire life, but I find the Abrahamic faiths interesting. Not from a spiritual perspective, but because they affect me in my daily life due to Christians I interact with and laws which are passed by people who claim to be doing so for Christian reasons.
It's always been rather hard for me to reconcile the messages of the gospels with the behavior of these people. Where is the humility, modest means and compassion? Instead we get judgemental attitudes which appear to be modeled on the Old Testament.
But I find it interesting that Judaism is not so judgemental.
jews have a stronger dislike for Christians, but are not very vocal publicly only between themselves, although Islam have a dislike for christianity they exercise their dominance by mocking them or physical violence. But i know what you mean when you say we are judgemental, i have the same experience between my own brethren, and i don't agree with them in that aspect.
Very accuate assesment
Revelation is the best book in the Bible .
Though you need to realise the dark interpretation .
The way Revelation is specifically worded you can interpret the villains as winning and the Christians losing.
Which is honestly the much more satisfying conclusion to the Bible. It:
• Has a cool message of the need to pay attention to what is being said
• Punishes the Christians for their constant speaking over the Bible and God
• Completes all the major unanswered questions
• Has all the main characters complete their story arcs
• Is actually realistic, removing all the dumb, annoying hopes
Much literary merit.
Same issue with Theravada texts.
The short answer is that the Bible, which a lot of American Christians don’t really actively read, has been wildly distorted and used as a politically-motivated tool.
As a Christian, I think it's bizarre that The book of Revelation has become the core value of modern"Christian minister"profiteers, false teachers etc. Instead of teaching the character qualities of Christ
That's what you find bizarre? Not the talking snake on page 1? Ok man whatever lol brilliant bright boy
@@davidleedougherty6478there was literally zero reason for u to be rude and even mention that
@@davidleedougherty6478 the imagery of the talking snake is ambiguous enough for us to appreciate at myriad levels.
Nothing like scaring the wool off of sheep.
@@chucktaylor4958 "If God had not meant for them to be sheared, he would not have made them sheep." --Calvera, The Magnificent Seven
Sometimes when I think of Revelations and folks I go to Church with who really get excited about it, it reminds me of a general thought of conservative white evangelicals, and maybe all sorts of people; Deep down, perhaps in areas of of which we aren't conscious, we want New Testament forgiveness for ourselves and Old Testament judgement for others. We want to be welcomed in the City of God, but we want THOSE people to get what they deserve (whoever those people are).
You’ve actually got it backwards. There is no eternal torment in the OT. No Hell or Satan-as-God’s-Eternal-Enemy, either. These are are NT motifs.
@@skepticus5705 You're correct, but I think I get Robert's point: the OT God comes across as a pretty vengeful, scary SOB; accurately or not, recent interpretations of the NT tend to see God as more benign.
@@lawsonj39 I see no persuasive reasons or evidences to suggest the existence of any god:scary, benign or indifferent. But, pray tell, how can you rationally interpret the NT in such a way as to put a positive face on a deity that creates a sadistic torture chamber?
Church is not a building
I was more thinking of general attitudes. The Old Testament gives us an eye for an eye, etc. There’s the story of Aaron’s sons who mess up in the temple and are burned alive. NT gives us turn the other cheek. But in general I was thinking of the way Christians live in two worlds, especially those of us in the reformed tradition. We are sinners saved by grace, a grace that is neither earned nor deserved. Then I see Christians liking a Facebook meme about a doctor supposedly having bad experiences with patients who receive financial support for their care. How is it that Christians who have received grace they neither deserve nor earned hate on others in need. Except, look at the parable of the man whose debts are forgiven by a king, then throws one of his debtors in jail. So, in the same way, we want NT forgiveness for ourselves, a gift disproportionate to what we deserve, but we want other to get what they deserve.
The Internet can be a wild and even deranged space but spending time being informed and entertained in the company of these two cultured, bright and humane individuals is really something that should be cherished.
I deed. Nowdays you have to look through all the junk to find any educational content.
It's the Internet that makes Dr Bart and Dr Megan available. They are wonderful personable communicators and I learn a fantastic amount listening to their conversations. 🙂🙂
They tried it as the last chapter of Charlotte's Web but it didn't make any sense.
Another awesome episode, you two do a great job! Bart Ehrman never fails to educate and enlighten his viewers, and Megan rocks that hairdo and I love her accent. Thanks to you both!
Fearmongering is absolutely essential to keep people obedient to the authorities and afraid to think rationally.
As Bart points out, Revelation was considered either fringe or an allegorical telling of the present kingdom of Chris for the vast majority of its history. It's only been used as a cudgel since the 19th century.
10:26 10:28 @@andrelegeant88
As a non-beleiver, The Revelation has always been my favourite of the books in the Bible from a litterary standpoint with its powerful, imaginative language.
That powerful imaginative language in the book of revelations is written that way by the true God to keep people out who do not deserve to know. The same is true regarding the book of Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, the four gospels with their illustrations and metaphors and other Hebrew scriptures. If people understood that powerful imaginative language, they would a find a powerful message hidden in them about God's will, his purpose for mankind and how to survive his wrath. To most people on this planet the bible is a fairytale and will be nothing else.
@@ronhansen8471
So why was it written in a language nobody in the area could read, Classical Greek?
@@newnoggin2 Koine Greek
@@ronhansen8471 sure, doesn't help your case any still
@@ronhansen8471 This kind of comment is why the modern world is full of people who can't stand Christians. Do you even hear yourself?
Megan and Bart together is such a treat. Two intelligent academics talking about Christianity, one a believer the other not. But they get on famously. No tensions. No defense mechanism. Just seeking the truth about the Bible.
Wait, Megan is a believer?
@@bigtombowski Episcopalian I believe
I don't think Bart is a Christian anymore.
I loved that statement towards the end Dr. ehrman where you said it’s good to have an informed faith because otherwise you have an ignorant faith. Thanks to you for the scholarly work you do. As a Christian I enjoy listening to your content.
You do know he’s an atheist right?
@@tsb3093It's God's will.
Faith is ignorant whether informed or uninformed
I am an agnostic! Not because I am an ‘atheist without balls’, but because I realise that I cannot say with certainty that there is no god. However, I can say for certain that if there is a god it is not the vile, foul, obscene god of the Jews, Christians and Muslims!! A god totally obsessed with the pursuit of his own glorification and the punishment of weak mortals, mortals mislead by the stories which he allowed men to write in his name! A vindictive, bullying, childish, megalomaniac!
The Abrahamic books and religions are an insult to god (if he exists).
* Agnostic; from Ancient Greek ἀ- (a-) 'without', and γνῶσις (gnōsis) 'knowledge') ‘One without the knowledge.’
The Left Behind series! 🤣 I have no doubt LaHaye and company were snickering in their beer all the way to the bank!!
I credit the pastor of my local Mennonite Fellowship in the '80's who passionately taught Revelation is not a calendar of future events, it was meant for readers at the time of it's writing. If there were parts that were "secret" meant for a future audience then it had no meaning for it's original audience and if that's the case then what's the point of the book? It becomes irrelevant and useless as a future calendar...
Authors and movie makers love the notion of the Battle of Armageddon but as my pastor noted if you read the passage there is no terrific battle to end all battles, rather it merely states the nation's are gathered FOR battle but Christ appears, the Beast is destroyed and Satan is bound...voila, no Oscar winning cinematic battle ...
32:01 ... my struggle is Faith is a form of ignorance, isn't it? "I don't care what the facts are I have faith!"
Armageddon refers to the fortified town that housed military forces which protected the trade routes from the east. In general it is exactly the situation that is occurring now this time in history regarding energy and commodities and minerals. Supply chains are vulnerable.
Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word, a Rhema, of God. With the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth one believes unto salvation.
Fully believe in the heart and then speak out those thoughts that are revelation and a deeper experience will be discovered especially while fasting. Separate from unbelief including family while actively seeking.
@@allanvrc725 What in the ever loving Sheol are you on about?? You are telling people to separate from their family members who are stuck (it ain’t stuck at all) in “unbelief?”
No one wants to hear some nut job screaming in public about Armageddon and the apocalypse and all that nonsense.
If the mouth leads to salvation, can the mount also lead to damnation? Because if so where do I sign up to be damned for eternity? I’ll just go ahead and mark my place in line. There’s no want in Sheol I’m doing anything that could jeopardize my eternal soul and risk going to heaven with fundamentalist doofuses like you. That sounds absolutely horrific in every way.
However intermittent fasting IS good for your health, so I support the fasting part in a sense.
@@GoZags43 Everyone is caught up in a state of mind that is induced through life experience. Each person empowers a self belief and it is detrimental to any peaceful solution and generally leads to conflict.
The mind is below par and directs a person into poor outcomes. If there is an opportunity to step back a little everything appears as a psycho drama and it has been stated that it seems everyone is living in the mental asylum.
There is a way to redirect the mind's focus.
There are self help gurus who use similar methods to help people have more financially successful lives.
The scriptures are revealing that with discipleship the mind and belief can be adjusted toward Eternal life, which is immortality.
Christians talk about an "after life" and living in heaven but it is not scriptural.
The dead go into the grave and will later be resurrected therefore it is a "here after" on a new heaven and a new earth.
When studying the atom it becomes obvious that every thing is held at a certain energy level with space and energy fields giving the volume. We all live in an image much like a plasma TV.
Everyone is trapped in a biology that is then influenced by a degeneration, a decay of the planet that produces oxidizing at the cellular level and this brings aging and final death.
The words you are writing and probably speaking and believing are reinforcing where your mind and belief is and there will be no change. To change the mind and belief's perspective from own self is difficult and not many will try it. My experience was inadvertent and not being sought but it is no less real.
The topic is "why is the book of revelation in the Bible?" Have you listened to the video? The scripture states it is to show his servants things that are about to take place.
People who ridicule faith want you to think that faith is baseless. Hebrews 11:1 is the typical verse used to define faith. In the variety of English translations, it can be interpreted loosely in various ways. I like using Bible Hub to compare the various translations against one another and against the original Greek, and to compare the Greek words used to the way they are used in other scriptures to get a clearer picture of the range of possible meanings. In this verse, the predicate nominatives equating to "faith" are "hypostasis" and "elenchon" in Greek. Hypostasis is commonly used to refer to an underlying substance or reality. "Substance" is practically just a Latinized way of saying "hypostasis". An alternative translation, "assurance," implies an underlying support. Unfortunately, it can be taken to refer to the feeling of assurance or confidence rather than the reason for it. Clearly not what the author intended. "Elenchon" refers to evidence, proof, or conviction as in court. Theologians argue that true faith cannot contradict reason. In this verse, faith itself is the reason for hope, and the proof of things unseen. Faith is not only consistent with reason, it is reason. Not the opposite of reason.
Faith is irrational it doesn't make sense. IOW nonsense.
Thanks to you both for your scholarship and efforts in helping us understand.
I am pretty sure I am not the only one here who cannot wait for the next episode of this awesome podcast: Dr. Bart process of un-new-borning himself. A painful process that leaves a feeling a loneliness leading to spiritual freedom.
"Un-new-borning". Well done. 😎
I think that's actually called "De-Borning".
Has anyone out there read “Live From Golgotha: The Gospel According to Gore Vidal?” When Bart spoke about that early church father who said Judas was similar to Jabba the Hut in physique, I was reminded of some passages from that book. I wonder if Gore Vidal ever read any of the writings from that church father.
I read the Bible, Genesis to Revelation, when I was in the fourth grade, as a commitment to a Sunday school teacher. By the time I got to Revelation I wasn't taking any of it too seriously. Over the years I appreciated how its imagery fed Renaissance art. Now that I'm older, I see it as mostly revenge porn for the pious. But the imagery is fun. And Megan's questions are illuminating.
@monkmchorning .. and there's your problem - Sunday school never taught anyone about Christianity and the true 'gospel' that Jesus taught - not even close. You are proof of this.
@@Chris_Sheridan he read the gospels first hand for himself.. he isn't convinced it's the word of God or accurate history... Get over it
@@stussysinglet .. Lol! So what?
He's still wrong.
> and you don't know any better because you haven't studied or researched either - you're both as ignorant as each other.
@@stussysinglet P.S > you have to read further to get proper understanding - the book of 'Acts of the Apostles' and also Paul's letter to the Philippians .. and then some.
You'd never make a scientist or proper researcher - too lazy!
@@Chris_Sheridan sorry, but I'm not "proof" of anything.
I read Misquoting Jesus years ago and there are many examples of such subjective assumptions and straight out mis-translations that accumulated particularly in the 1000 years before the printing press. Basically a 1000 year game of Telegraph across Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Old English...and just about every other spoken language of the time. I'm being overly simplistic but I think it makes the point. There was a lot of adlibbing going on.
I look forward to your uploads ✨
I’m reading your new book Armageddon , and I love it ! It’s a great read and very informative , educational, and a great history lesson!
The force has a great influence over the weak minded. Obiwan Kenobi. 😁
@@hackman669 and the strong minded control the force. Herman Neutics 💪🤣
About the rant: It takes so long to unlearn the things i grew up with. Whether Mark learned from Peter is not so important as going all this time believing it because people taught it. Including me. Undoing that understanding might not be terribly important, but it's really annoying to have to undo it because it's impossible to tell what collateral beliefs I hold because of that. Probably a lot.
38:43 I missed some of this video, but when I came back, I heard you talking about this passage about the grapevine and what came to mind immediately was this is a perfect description of the entire religious system. Thank you for the blessing Bart.
Bart is the only speaker who is allowed to say "um" as frequently as he does... Somehow when he does it's endearing to me
Just shows how really IGNORANT he is .
Less nervous (?) laughter, that's good, increases professorial gravitas
Um....
Um...
One time is not overdoing it, but if you want me to be endeared to you, you win!
Always look forward to these. Thank you guys for this series
Awesome, thanks to two of you for helping us understanding the Scriptures. 🎉
"Either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing." - Benjamin Franklin
Great subject! After getting a little more familiar with the heretical, unorthodox sect's 'Mythos', Revelations always struck me as having a distinctly Gnostic flavor. Can't wait to hear Professor Bart's talk.
Do you understand what Gnostics believed? Nothing about Revelation is Gnostic.
Why did Revelation ultimately make it into the canon? Because many early church leaders/fathers thought it fit just fine with the Hebrew Bible and the NT. They saw it as fitting with an avenging Messiah. The violence that plays out in Revelation is foreshadowed in multiple places in the NT sometimes by NT Jesus himself as has been discussed in the comments of the previous 2 videos. For more: The Bad Jesus the ethics of NT ethics by Dr. Hector Avalos.
The Hebrew Bible was already canonized by the Jewish Community 200 years before the Church only began to decide which books were going to be part of the Xian bible. The Hebrew Bible is divided into three parts.. Torah, Prophets and Writings.. the "Writing" section was finally codified by 120 CE, right before the Bar Kochva Rebellion. Which is WHY the order of the books of the Tanach (Hebrew bible) is one way and the xian one is purposely re-ordered.
@@creativewriter3887 Protestant bibles use something called the Masoretic text and refer to it as the Hebrew canon. Masoretes were a group in the 7th to 9th centuries AD. This obviously cannot be the same canon you are referring to. Can you help me figure out what canonization means in a Hebrew context and what the Masoretic text has to do with it?
@@thereaction18 No they do not. "Masor" means "tradition" and there never was a group called the Masorites".. that's a xian MYTH. The Sages did use the Masoretic text (which included the vowels.. Traditional Torah scrolls, even today do not contain any vowels) because with the bulk of the Jewis living OUTSIDE of Israel, many of whom were now forbidden to learn Torah, so they could at least READ it. The Protestant bibles never had Jewish input.. especially the King James. Why? Because the Jews were expelled from England in 1300 and weren't allowed back into England until just prior to King James' ascent to the throne. NONE of the xian bibles are true to the Hebrew Bible EXCEPT the Jerusalem Bible which is pretty close!
@@creativewriter3887 I appreciate your answer. I wasn't expecting Wikipedia to present a Christian myth as a fact. Of the many ways they tend to be wrong, that would be the one to catch me off guard.
@@thereaction18 And I was harsh in my response to you and I apologize. I initially thought you were one of those xians who promulgate this "Masorites" concept. So again I apologize. Protestant xians (especially Evangelicals and fundamentalists) always want some "linkage" to the Hebrew Scriptures or Jews because they think it will add "credibility" to BOTH their claims and their bible.. in reality it does not and it shows. So they tend to be pretty slimy and deceptive in their narrative. It's ironic that they trust the Jews when it comes to the canonization of the Hebrew Scriptures and the books of that bible (which happened in three phases), but then go on to say that the Jews "got it wrong" in terms of its message and vision. Isn't it just "special and convenient" (to borrow from the SNL Church Lady).
This is such an exceptional channel - rich information, thoughtful discussion. Bart and Megan are delightful.
Thank you for making this knowledge available! Wishing you both excellent health and success.
Megan’s calm demeanor and sophistication makes this so easy to watch!
3:27 Main discussion begins
Thank you.
Excellent episode!!! How did Augustine attain such power that he could change what people believed about the millennium in Revelation?
At his time, North Africa had some of the largest churches, and Augustine was bishop at Hippo. He wrote many large books, which were widely read. His interpretation of Revelation isn’t necessarily an influence on the church of his day, as much as it is a reflection of what people believed.
It’s only through the modern hype of fortune-telling that his teachings seen odd.
The church liked to think of themselves as the heroes (and victims) of Revelation. Augustine fed that bias.
He actually had a moderating influence somewhat he took Millennium to be symbolic and Christian’s no longer thought Christ was coming at any moment. The rapture teachings today are partly a rejection of the church being in the milinium and the rejection of the symbolic for a literal.
@@hjeffwallace 😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
😊😊😊
😊😊😊
Great interview. As a kid I was always frightened by local church members who were primarily interested only in the hellfire and brimstone concepts of this. Thanks for the context. Also, Dr. Ehrman and I have a love of college basketball in common. Go Heels.
Heels are better than the trust-fun masters of the universe that go to Duke!
So on the one hand it’s “important” that everyone understand Revelation, and on the other hand Bart Ehrman freely concedes that he himself, someone who has devoted his entire life to studying the New Testament, misunderstood Revelation for thirty years and, a fortiori, taught it wrong for thirty years. I’m going with Martin Luther here; I’m going to assume Revelation is impenetrable. Actually, I’m going further: I’m going to assume Revelation is impenetrable because the guy that wrote it is was off his rocker.
But when was Luther? We've learned nothing...? Because Luther had such penetrating ideas?
Did they have magic mushrooms available for consumption to those who wrote (transcribed) the books included in the bible per chance?
@@frankforsyth3978Yes and other drugs.
@@frankforsyth3978plants existed before humans according to the Bible, so yes.
Professor Ehrman, you explain the arguments about authorship at play before the inclusion of The Book of Revelation in the canon. Well and good. But I am wondering about the political factions (in the Church, but also, perhaps, in the Constantinian court) which found it to their advantage to include it in the canon. Who was twisting whose nose, and why? Revelation is so inconsistent with the rest of the Canon. I know that apocalyptic literature was common back then, common both inside and outside of the Christian community; therefore, I assume that Revelation was not as distasteful to them than it is to me. Yet those who lost the debate must have been annoyed. Did they also lose face? Was their status diminished?
I did start listening as I searched information but I came away feeling disturbed by his unmotivated exaggerated laughter
Same
@@fieldsleeper Thank you for the feedback. I was a bit perplexed by not seeing more people mention that
Hi Megan! I was not expecting to see you. I just opened the video and started listening... And I heard your familiar voice. What a good surprise.
William Miller didn’t predict the Second Coming for 1848. He said March 1843, then when it didn’t happen, he said October, 1844.
We need more Bart Ehrman and less Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe.
I literally just claimed the exact video title as my seminar topic a few days ago. Divine intervention? Just kidding. Thank you so much Bart!!!
It makes me sad, that in 2023 people still believe this will happen..
Martin Luther’s concern was merited.
I agree.
And Understanding what drives believers is the only way to counter the very damaging laws they try to force on us.
What damaging laws?
@@henrybarrick7205 No sex before marrige, anti abortion, anti contraception, anti divorce, anti gay rights, blasphemy laws prevent freedom of speech and thought. Not as bad as it was a 50 years or a century ago.
@@colincampbell4261 In addition to respecting our creator, all of the laws you listed were created to support the life and well being of people not damage them. It is twisted to consider killing babies, having kids without a family, blashpheming God, and fornication in a positive light. Im not sure of any rights that gays dont have. Where does the bible condemn contraceptives? Your way off base.
Rev 11:6
Is there any similarity with these two capitalised phrases :
THE TWO WITNESSES
TWO WITNESSES..
.
The old testament term was used as a meand to determine that which was legally acceptable in establishing truth.
The reference made In revelation a deliberate direction to take that principle and adhere to it at this time !
Jehovahs witnesses have taken this stance, and its proven controversial in cases of child sex abuse .
These tragic incidences are certainly not isolated to Jehovahs witnesses..but perhaps elicit more publicity because of the way they hold to the two witnesses principle.
.
Is it possible that God has chosen to utilise this controversy to gather or engage opposition against his representatives..the two witnesses ?
In fact, interestingly..objectively speaking, in courts , the watchtower society have been charged fines , thousands of dollars daily until they had over lists of ALLEGED child molesters which congregation elders have recorded to hold until a second witness reports the individual alleged , at which point the pervert is cast out of the congregation.. disfellowshipped.
Either destroying the records or refusing to hand those records over , it made me think that perhaps the Governing body of Jehovshs witnesses fit the profile of the man of lawlessness.
However, back to the court fines :
In effect..the jw ,s have paid for that title ..financially at courts and in reputation. ..
The two witnesses
An episode examining for each NT book & why it's in the Bible would be fabulous. 😊
I don't think Revelation should've made it in & won't bother with it anymore.
Well, you need to understand it as the original hearers were supposed to understand it. As a divorce writ to Israel under the Mosiac Covenant.
It seems to me that this book 'Revelation' gives God's blessing to acts of evil that are done in the furtherance of good. It's a utilitarian sort of argument, theologized.
As a former catholic, I'm here to say, they taught me revelation was about the Mass 😅
🤨 what??..what did they exactly say?
@masque so I think the idea is that in heaven, all the time, the sacrifice of the mass is being celebrated. When we have mass on earth, heaven opens up, and angels touch the altar to join our sacrificial mass prayer with those in heaven. It's invisible tho. Then the book of revelation is an apocalyptic mass or something. Different parts of the sacrifice in revelation are supposed to match with the eucharistic sacrifice.
I was not taught this in the more progressive mainstream parochial school, but later in the rad trad homeschooling circles. It's out there on the interwebs, I'm sure.
@Christine Alyse that sounds right!
The entire liturgy of the Mass is found in Revelation. Simple example: Jesus' primary title in the Mass, "Lamb of God," is his title in Revelation, referred to as such around thirty times. Had you never attended a Mass you could probably put the liturgy together just from Revelation.
I didn’t watched this and I am sure it was good, but was it seems the Bible teaches we were created to be doomed. I just try to believe in a loving creator who wants me to be free, have a good code of ethics, be kind and enjoy the gift of this beautiful blue green planet. Also I know I cannot begin to understand this infinite massive universe and all the whys of things.
Dr Ehrman is infectious. Love his energy!!!
The Apocalypse was questionable particularly in the East were it was never or seldom read in the Liturgy which was the main reason for canonization.
Since North African councils Hippo and Carthage had great influence and the Bishop there named Augustine favored it so it was included
Raised as a Jehovah's Witness doomsday theology was paramount, and an entire structure of earthly / heavenly salvation based thereupon. Happy to be religiously freed from such fear but still learning how to free myself emotionally from it...thanks for an important video ♡.
I was never in a church where the pastor preached on Revelation. Nor did we ever study Revelation in a home Bible study group. It was too weird for me and for most other Christians.
It is out of place in the Bible. It has a lot of content which seems more consistent with visions described by a person under the influence of a psychedelic substance, possibly psilocybin mushrooms, which was available. I wonder if Revelation was a first century fantasy novel using a biblical theme, but it was later mistaken as non-fiction?
Purely a side note: I am someone who sang in church choirs, first Lutheran then Episcopalian, for fifty years, and I can tell you that the book of Revelation has no competition when it comes to being set to music. A few years ago I re-read it out of curiosity and realized that the book practically sings itself.
The band Genesis has a great song based on revelation
@@nosuchthing8 which one?
Interesting observation. Perhaps it was written to be sung rather than read. Which version did you sing from? KJV? That has a particular melodic style. It's passed through the filters from Greek to Latin to English in our translations. This might result in some language to accommodate the English translation. More recent translations go back to the original written text and straight to English.
@@nosuchthing8 Supper’s Ready probably as the end is certainly apocalyptic, referencing the antichrist and the supper of the Lamb.
The OG Little Shop Of Horrors.
I once had a Jehovah's Witness tell me earnestly that "without the book of Revelation, you might as well throw the rest of the bible away". The two JW folk with him squirmed embarrassingly but didn't contradict him or encourage him to retract. I was blown away! Especially since i knew about Luther's opinion on it.
Was a JW for 44 years, and can verify this thinking....terrifying really.
Aside from the interesting and fascinating content, I enjoy seeing what glasses Megan will wear during this interview. She has some very classy and beautiful choices that go so very well with her lovely colorful hair.
I wonder if the book of revelation is an esoteric manuscript for initiates?
Join me and we'll rule the galaxy...
I’m glad it is available. All scripture is the work of man and gives insight into the ideas of ancient man. Viewed as literature it has value.
Absolutely. It's all equally interesting as literature.
Perhaps the Book of Revelation is so popular with today’s Evangelicals because they find everyday life in today’s world intolerable: “I can’t stand this anymore! Let catastrophe strike and burn and kill and erase it all!” 😭😤🤬🤯😱😁
It is because there is some alignment with world events as they unfold. It probably is not a terrorist mentality. Eventually God's will is going to be done on earth as it is in heaven. A new heaven and a new earth bringing peace and plenty.
I totally agree. This life can get brutal,and people sometimes ache for an ethical way out. I think that impulse is behind the suicide bomber,even though the great majority of Muslims do not believe it is ethical.
They're hoping Jesus will return in 2024 and rescue them from their unhappy lives. Seriously.
The one thing I dislike about almost all podcasts is that they always begin with ten minutes of small talk about nothing, As if people want to listen in on personal conversations about the weather, sports, kids etc. Please…edit that part out or catch up offline. Otherwise, this is super interesting.
Zebardee! That's the puppet on a spring from "The Magic Roundabout". It all makes sense now, thanks Bart and Megan!🙏
'I don't watch television at all… except sports.'
I mean, I don't watch television at all except comedies and mysteries and historical drama.
For me, as a Jewish kid, the first thing we did on a school trip was grab the Gideon Bible in our hotel rooms and start reading the Revelation out loud!
Some of it is about to be fulfilled.
@@allanvrc725 I can’t wait! I’ll pop some popcorn. When does Lucifer show up? I would love to hang out and have a few beers with him.
@@GoZags43 What is influencing the minds of our leaders to build nuclear weaponry, where does corruption come from. Humans who are self indulgent and instigators will pay with their lives and they will take many others with them.
Destruction will come but peace follows.
He's inspired me to study christianity and try to understand it in ways 'christian' teaching typically doesn't allow. Its a shame christians can be so rigid in knowing absolute 'truths' ... they won't be able to learn.
I feel 'learning' is the most beautiful path to travel.
I take joy in learning and discovering new points of view.
Knowledge leads to understanding . Which leads to power. 😆
"Relelatios are just the rantings of a Lunatic, in a Lunatic Asylum
And I should know"
Mr Napoleon the 4th...(Broadmoor)
I really enjoy the combinatiom of Megan and Bart. Megan is attentive and asks very pertinent questions. Like Bart, I really believed in Revelation and that it promised that justice would be done. I don't have the same view of Revelation that Bart now has. It is not as harmful as he seems to feel. Revelation is supposed to show the wicked being dealt with and many in modern society just don't feel that people should reap what they sow. It's a peculiarly modern American paradigm.
9:42 "that everybody agreed on" - isn't it true that there are some Christian groups that have continued to not have the Revelation to John in their canon?
The "new Jerusalem" sounds very much like a Borg cube.
Is that what they building in Dubai. 😃
LOVE the hair and glasses!!
It is in the canon because it supports some key Catholic ideas: The blessed virgin declared the Queen of heaven, her being called the new Arc of the covenant.. the carrier of the bread of life and word of God in flesh as opposed to stone tablets and Manna
Which is weird, because you'd think that something as important as the sacrament would be explained by Jesus in the gospels, not added later in an addendum.
I have read about a triple goddess in ancient world. Trinity sounds similar, but male. Kabbala describes 10 forces intermediary between us and God. There are 3 female, 3 male. 3 intermediary and also the spirit of the people of Israel.
When I was a kid I was a thoroughly indoctrinated fundamentalist baptist. I tried to read the Bible, but Revelation and to a lesser degree Genesis were the only books I could get through. They were like my comic books or sci fi movies since I was disallowed actual ones 😂
Thank you, Bart
"Right this way smiles a mermaid;
I can hear Atlantis full of cheer."
And away we go in that fantastic audio spaceship that Hendrix built.
Thank you, I was thinking you would choose something like Purple Haze but your innate musical ear picked the deepest cut that ploughed into what at that time was the audio recording/compositional/virtuoso equivalent of discovering the North West Passage or Eldorado and which turned the music world on its head..
People also tend to overlook the poetic imagery of his songs too as well as his ability to turn blues, folk, and pop standards like 'Let the Good Times Roll' ,'Hey Joe' and 'All Along The Watchtower' into reincarnations that were wholly his own.
And all his admirers too.
Once again thank you for you choices.
Thanks Bart, so much information, I struggle to remember it all.
👏🙂
Very interesting
As an atheist, I love finding common ground with the predominant religion in my culture (Christianity). So, I am really, really looking forward to the new book on the impact of ethics by Jesus.
Check out the Jefferson Bible. Thomas Jefferson compiled it with the same intent in mind.
Of course it should actually refer to the literature of the Bible since little is known about the historical Jesus.
There is NO common ground with the deluded!
If the “predominant religion [of YOUR] culture” is Christianity, you already have common ground. You were raised with common ground. You ARE Christian-in the only sense that has any real significance. Your personal beliefs about God are not especially relevant.
@@jeffryphillipsburns I disagree, I was born into a Protestant Christian family, in a Christian country. I went to Sunday school and church until 15years of age, I renounced all religious nonsense at the age of 12. Since then I have studied comparative religion for over 60 years and can tell you categorically that I have nothing in common with religionists, I despise their laziness, gullibility and naivety! Common sense would dictate that one researches your belief before you commit! And NO religion stands up to academic scrutiny!
@@venenareligioest410, the intent here is to find common ground which you say you refuse to do. That’s not about the weak claims of religion; that’s about you.
I would love to see a conversation with Bart and Elaine Pagels re: book of Revelation.
Could you insert link to some of your books please?
Everyone should join the Ehrmanite tribe
Revelations, beloved by the fanatics as it gives them full interpretive leeway to herd and then fleece the sheep.
Very good. Your path to the Darksde is nearly complete. 😃
When the book encourages patient endurance because Christ will end all evil and God will wipe every tear, sounds like a book of hope to me. The literal word "hope" doesn't have to appear.
are the bowls, trumpets, etc. to be read as congruent or consequetively
So the description of many eyes and faces on angels are common themes found with people on LSD or psychedelics. If the writer of Revelation was actually exiled, there is a chance they had eaten morning glory seeds which can cause similar visions to those on LSD. I think ruling out psychedelics influence is a huge mistake, as many of the imagery in Revelation is strikingly similar to common images people see on psychedelics.
There is definitely not a requirement of drugs to be involved in revelation. Drugs will actually be a barrier because they reinforce the aspects in the self with a belief system that has developed in a biological and genetically constructed human. Fasting over time is usually necessary and this releases the mind from the biological influence while refocusing belief and spoken words toward God.
It’s orbits of the planets are the rings within rings. Many eyes are the stars.
It wasn’t LSD. It was schizophrenia.
@@allanvrc725 Certainly not a requirement, but it seems very, very plausible. Again, I think is just shouldn't be flat out dismissed. There is a lot of research about psychedelics, and many of the descriptions line up with universally common visions to someone with imagery of multiple eyes and faces, easily applicable toward research about the effects of morning glory seeds. I doubt the author of Revelation wrote it all during their actual experience, but likely reinterpreted their visions through their Christian outlook and view of Rome as an immoral and unjust government. How much your average New Testament scholar looks into the research on psychedelics could be a problem if they aren't even considering it for these kinds of passages.
@@jeffryphillipsburns Why do you think that? I'm not that familiar with the research on schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder, but the description of the angels is very hard to ignore in comparison to visions experienced on something like morning glory seeds.
This series on the book of Revelation was excellent. Thank you very much!
I don't know where Bart gets the idea that excesses of eating and drinking are described in Revelation. It talks about not hungering or thirsting but this is only supplying the lacks in many parts of the world.
I just finished listening to your new book. It was a but fiery, no pun intended.
Dr. Bart, thank you for the insight of bishop Arius, and bishop Alexander. Unfortunately for bishop Arius, he had a sad ending from what I heard. I think it was hilarious to me when Constantinople didn't care for the trivialities of the church fathers if Jesus is god. To constantinople jesus is god, i thought it was funny the way you said it.
I think Bart said that the emperor Constintine didn't worry about the trivialities (and as far as I have read, that's probably true), but the city and population of Constantinople were definitely consumed with splitting doctrinal hairs (they spent a few centuries going back and forth over using icons)
Great insight on probably one of the most confusing books in the bible. Thank you Megan and Bart!
Ad an atheist turned Christian, Bart is a great resource to know what’s true and what’s false about the Bible. Here is what Bart says is true: Jesus lived; he died on the cross; he was put in a tomb; the tomb was empty. His followers said and believed he was resurrected.
As with all 2000 yr old fables, who can say what was in people’s head? Certainly not these people
This whole thing about Judas getting too fat and exploding instantly made me think of Mr Creosote in "Monty Python's Meaning of Life".
It is important to note that there is no direct evidence to suggest that YHW (Yahweh) from the Mt Ebal curse tablet and Yawheh (Yam) from the Baal Cycle are the same entity.
However, if we were to explore hypothetical reasons why they could be the same, we might consider the following possibilities:
1. Mythological connection: It's possible that Yahweh (YHW) and Yawheh (Yam) have similar mythological significance in their respective cultures, and there could be a connection between the stories or beliefs associated with each name. It's possible that the same deity or mythological figure is referenced by both names.
2. Linguistic evolution: Over time, names and words can evolve and change. It's possible that YHW (Yahweh) and Yawheh (Yam) are variations of the same name that evolved through different linguistic processes in different cultures.
3. Syncretism: In some cases, cultures can blend or syncretize different religious beliefs and practices. It's possible that Yahweh (YHW) and Yawheh (Yam) are the result of syncretism between different cultural or religious traditions.
4. Historical continuity: It's possible that the worship of Yahweh (YHW) began earlier than previously thought and was present in the culture that produced the Baal Cycle and Hebrew Cuneiform. In this scenario, Yawheh (Yam) could be an earlier form of Yahweh, which evolved into the name used in the Mt Ebal curse tablet.
Again, it's important to note that these are purely hypothetical scenarios, and there is no direct evidence to support the idea that YHW (Yahweh) from the Mt Ebal curse tablet and Yawheh (Yam) from the Baal Cycle written in Hebrew Cuneiform are the exact same entity.
Megan is beautiful!
Is this question for me? I would say to give the ‘Christians’ of Neros’ day encouragement by continuing the inherited apocalyptic tradition of the Messianic apocalyptic groups of the “Way”.
Another absolutely fascinating look at the Bible and Christian belief. Thanks from sunny Vienna, Scott
Thank you both. I always felt Revelation just didn't fit the rest of the bible. Thank you for a deeper understanding, Bart. Loved your courses on Mark and Moses. Two of my favs.
I love this podcast!
05:38 - What do you mean, Martin Luther's translation HAD the status like the King James version in germany? It still has in the german protestant church.
It was added to help draw in people who do LSD.
As a human being in this comment section, great podcast!
This would be ok but those glasses and hair are disturbing
You poor darling.
It is never read in Church in the Orthodox Church, and not included in the Liturgical Apostle.
Si Rev is not in Orthodox church. A wise move indeed. 👌
Awesome content.