Former Post Office boss cornered over knowledge of Horizon software defects in Inquiry
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 เม.ย. 2024
- Former Managing Director of Post Office Network David Miller was in front of the Post Office Inquiry earlier this week, where he was grilled over his knowledge of defects in the Horizon software system.
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The Post Office Alzheimer's cluster expands.
Amazing how little was known by so many people over such a long time period. Extraordinary how localized the reduction in mental faculties was, really. Should be studied by medical researchers.
Ernest Saunders, anyone?
Pathetic! These managers relied on SPM for their obscene salaries and the only thanks the SPMs got, was to be shafted over & over by the @ssh○le$ at the top....🤬🤬🤬
This lawyers is a boring robt and is not very effective
@@michaelmcginley7930 Which lawyer? If you mean Emma Price, she's bloody brilliant. Her job isn't to entertain you, but to get to the truth.
I’m so sorry that the highly paid executives of PO couldn’t remember any accounts or instances of concern about the failings of the Horizon system. It was, after all, many years ago. They were, at least, highly paid. Bless them. In the meantime the hundreds if not thousands of PO victims and families were ravaged by protracted and unremitting injustice were left to rot. WTF!!!
The way he's speaking, avoiding saying anything except where directly asked questions says to me he is being very economical with the truth.
Blame the Lawyers , their brief to the PO management ,Just tell them you do not remember and keep repeating it , tell barefaced lies but don't worry the government and the PO will protect you .
But they went to all the right schools, you see. And received such large salaries and bonuses. I bet they even took Friday afternoon off down at the wine bar! I mean, it just stands to reason that all those grubby "sub" postmasters had their hands in the till, doesn't it? Didn't seem worth the trouble back then, really. Some of the sub postmasters dressed quite poorly, and were from (how shall we put it) less desirable neighbourhoods. All rather unfortunate, but what can you do? Nothing for it, really. Best to just let it lie.
@@karlmylnere5712 Last week testimony showed that Tory ministers were colluding with the PO to cover things up, yet in public they say they're fixing things and the issues are all someone else's fault!
So many of these Post Office managers know nothing, remember nothing, never asked any questions, never understood what they were doing or what they were responsible for. And yet, for some reason, they see nothing wrong with having drawn huge salaries for this utter level of collective incompetence.
If anyone else were that incompitent, they'd be sacked. Why do these entitled buffoons think it's their right to be employed regardless of their utter ineptitude?
Disgusting they are
They justify their high salaries by saying they are accountable and the buck stops with them. But when faced with that they lie and say they didn’t know. Disgusting
You hit the disgusting nail on the head. It's pure classism. Impunity personified.
DON'T DROP THIS ISSUE JOE! We NEED this in the spotlight. Absolutely no way we can let these crooks get away with the evil they've done.
I agree with you, we all need to support these post office workers, if not I cannot see justice being served.
I'm not sure what justice can look like if so many are involved at so many levels
These post office management witnesses are universally rotten to the core.
They will get away with it.its only the tea lady and beloved that get punished
In other country such as francer there would be raits innthe street.sorry but this woman lawyers is rubbish
Extraordinary.
It goes way beyond Vennels.
She is an easy target partly because of her bizarre delusion that she was a "good" person and a fit subject for ordination in the Anglican Church. Too, too bizarre. Too, too delusional.
But it goes far beyond her.
I am sickened by the corporate "bullshit bingo" language being trotted out by one after another of the senior executives in this inquiry.
It is nauseating.
Agreed, and it's not just her own bizarre delusion. It's cultural. We British, collectively, assume that status brings virtue, or at least are afraid openly to suggest otherwise when we see those with power over us doing wrong. That fear is justified, because we know that saying anything has serious consequences.
Agreed!
@@turnitbackwe need to always say what we think. For 2 reasons:
1, if we don’t say what we think, who’s going to know how we feel?
2, if we’re silenced, those power hungry amongst us. Use their influence to create oppression and succeed!
@@yorkshirehousewife784correct
So often people that rush to religious bullshit are the real nasty pieces of work … Vennels? she looks like what she is!
They remember things in their defence, but forgets things in their guilt!!!
Look how slow he is at answering these question.. he’s trying to make sure he doesn’t slip up. That’s what people do when they know they’ve done wrong and don’t want to be blamed.
A reminder that David Miller wasn't just a Managing Director of Post Office - he was a core part of the Horizon project leadership team (a deputy director in 1995 and programme director in 1998 according to his recent testimony at the inquiry). He was describing Horizon as "robust and fit for purpose" (the phrase that comes back to haunt everyone) while it was being rolled out in 1999, despite Ernst and Young highlighting serious issues *to him* with data integrity in their auditing.
When it comes to who covered it up - I expect a lot of fingers will be pointing in his direction.
He should be in jail
"I 'm afraid this is correct sir. Lock me up"
Stoned.
It’s a long time ago. Many of these individuals are older. Memory is imperfect. Memory fades almost completely when confronted twenty years later.
Hate on me if you like.
Many of these people being interviewed are not the people who caused this miscarriage of justice. They were pawns being told what to think and being manipulated. They were under huge pressure to comply with the senior management line.
At the times they are discussing here many organisations had a very poisonous culture where people were not allowed to ask questions. Pressure was put on constantly to comply with the expectations of the organisation. Jobs were threatened. Pay was threatened. Too much was deliberately loaded on to people so it was impossible to think through a situation.
Go to the top to find out the truth. Managers lower down did not cause this but they can help to uncover where the responsibility lay for the deliberate deception. They were caught up in a tangle of lies from further up their line, so much so that they could no longer see or act clearly. They were silenced deliberately by a malicious and poisonous organisational culture.
"I don't recall."
We should take this to mean an admission of guilt.
I believe you are correct.
Complicit in the cover up. Get him locked up
Another one who crosses his arms when he is faced with uncomfortable details
People do that to protect themselves, psychology 😊
@@user-jy8iv3ux2eit’s a defensive action
interestingly he didn't like being interrogated by a young female barrister. He couldn't keep the 'tells' hidden.
When I installed the ovens at Auschwitz I had no idea what they were going to be used for. Not me guv.
So he had an emergency meeting about doubts over an "expert" witness which resulted in him signing off £180,000 without thinking may be he should ask further questions or a the very least read the supporting documentatio. Unbelievable
I have been on the board of two PLCs - I have never seen people who show so little interest in details of such serious matters.
It’s extraordinary that he didn’t read the advice from lawyers - it’s just inconceivable.
Unless he was running late for a round of golf.
Fact. No one would authorise something like this unless they knew all of the angles. Lying like a cheap watch.
This is why businesses should be more strictly regulated - not less.
it also shows the danger of a solely digital economy
Nonsense. This a taxpayer owned and funded business, not a private business, ultimately controlled by government ministers. And you want to give these morons more involvement in our lives. Your thinking is confused.
🌟 *THIS COMMENT!!*
Right on point! Deregulation in large industry has NEVER once benefited the everyday worker and usually ends in travesties like this!!
Amnesia is most prevalent attribute to all PO bosses
Sooooo selective. Bet they remember the exact names of all of the shitty brands and accessories they spend our tax money on. American Psycho gone Brit.
Obviously been instructed all of them, to follow the Amnesia path, get them in front of the criminal courts ..
What the hell did these senior managers do all day?
This person signed a cheque for some £180k on the basis that he was asked to - but did not ask any questions and did not read any of underlying documents. Huh! Isn't that what negligence looks like? It is not as if £180k was petty cash. On any view it was a material sum. It was probably as much or nearly as much as his annual salary. Yet he just signed without further enquiry. We are to believe that? Sorry! Not credible.
There seems to be a rule at the PO, no-one at the top knows anything about the running of the business, apparently junior management are doing all that, in which case they may as well have been unemployed so should return their massive salaries as they clearly did not earn them.
If I knew he signed cheques so easily I would have asked him to make one out to me.
And it was all public money too.
Appalling bunch of people - and not just at executive level - but both at POL and at Fujitsu, in legal and investigative departments, at the "Help" desk... _and_ in government and the civil service! Watching the inquiry and knowing of this for _years_ having read _Computer Weekly_ and _Private Eye,_ I am increasingly astounded at how the religious mantra of "Horizon Good, postmasters Bad!" was *_so_* pervasive. I am also astounded at just how incurious these people were. According to POL, there was a huge number of criminals operating post offices, criminals who had invested their own monies, linked the PO to their own businesses (both via contracts and via Horizon terminals), lived over the shop - yet they all had their fingers in the till! But no one thought to ask how this anomaly came about. They all just repeated the mantra.
So, the Postmasters, were prosecuted, and some sent to prison, for not doing their " job" properly.
Yet, although these Executives and Managers, couldn't or didn't do their " job" properly, they still got highly paid.
It beggers belief.
There seems to be a whole procession of old men who didn’t know anything and were negligent in their duties.
Or did know something and are covering up.
Why we letting the woman off the hook?
Women too! Equal rights incompetence
How do these “captains of industry” and politicians for that matter ( Rishi Sunak I’m looking at you) get so far with such poor memories?
It MIGHT JUST BE THE CASE that they're a bit selective in the old amnesia...
And boris
Not forgetting wee Nicky krankee! 😂
Sunak couldn’t run a Bath !
People like him in charge of businesses is the reason our economy hasn't grown in years.
The Post Office management don’t seem to be able to remember anything, apart from the Bonuses they received!
I think that poor memory must have been a requirement for getting a management job at the Post Office 🤬
4:05 I was just following orders. Since Nuremberg trials it's not an allowed defense argument
And look what happened to those guilty Nazis thanks to Albert Pierrepoint.
No morals what so ever 🤬🤬
Typical Tory.
Can't wait until the public inquiry is over so that we can move on to criminal hearings. I've no doubt that the public submissions will be formulated with that prospect in mind.
"I'm sorry sir, I won't be able to help you", these people are disgusting.
Wyn does a wonderful job of summarising things. I assume that he doesn’t need the money, this is something that he was asked to and he decided he wanted to do it.
The judge is brilliant
It seems to me as if these executives day at at work was to go to there office put their feet, up snooze till lunch time then have an executive lunch for a couple of hours, then stagger back to their office, get their secretary in and tell her/him that they were at an outside meeting and to call their wife and tell them they will be late home due to work, then off to the golf club . This is how it must have been for them all to be so absent minded.
Selective amnesia- when evidence allows them to point the finger at someone else their recall is remarkably better than when they are being directly accused of wrong doing themselves.
I do have to admit I think this rush to ascribe malice to everyone involved rather than incompetency is a worrying. Countless people suffered due to decisions made by the Post Office and I think it's easier to reflexively think people need to have committed crimes or are covering up for their actions now.
While i could be wrong a lot of this just seems to be corporate culture gone mad. Which I think is more terrifying. In this case yes maybe he's lying but also, more terrifying, maybe he was just terrible at his job. Like maybe this happened and it didn't even register because he didn't understand the implications. He might have been in a position to help people, prevent unjust convictions, and he might just have been too thick.
There are these disparate groups working against each other in this story. The actual people working in post offices who actually understand the system but are the lowest level in this set-up. From day one of the Horizon system testing their concerns have been ignored. Except the story goes the head office appointed someone without any tech background to supervise the test. He was warned Horizon wasn't fit for purpose, told people were struggling, but how was he to understand those implications? He didn't understand what could go wrong with a computer program, didn't understand the legal implications and didn't know what questions to ask if Fujitsu. One nerd in that role, or lawyer or expert in the field and this might have been prevented. But he went back to HQ and said looks great. No one there noticed he was incompetent and shouldn't have had the job because no one there knew anything about software either. The people they were liaising with at Fujitsu weren't programmers, why would you talk to the workers when you're management? They would have been in sales or execs who's job it was to over promise and sell their company. Two more layers of people who never tried to use the software as intended to see if it worked. No one who went to an actual post office to see how it functioned because that's not their job. Their job was selling a product or modernizing the Post Office. Also the government had already sunk a bunch of cost into buying the thing, almost like they made a fallacious decision to get something for that money. If only there was a term for that.
At every level some group of people was doing exactly what their job was and ignoring what it meant to real people. No one asked anything outside their remit and never questioned their aims. Modernization, reducing fraud, keeping the post office open, cutting costs, personally recovering money.
Why didn't someone like this see the disaster they were creating? They were a bit thick and it wasn't their job. They just read reports and did their job as an incompetent cog.
Which is more terrifying than incompetent. The system itself doesn't work. People get hired and promoted off of results not due to competency or skills. The people with skills are left doing their job and not being shown the larger picture.
So snobbery and the British class system at work. People trusting that people like them are good at running things ergo things are going well. No need to question if the plebs are stealing or, those sort always do. Reminds me of Rishi decided to cut benefits because people can't possibly need them and all the right sort agree they're good at being in power so their ideas must work.
That's all depressingly plausible as an explanation, yet still the patterns of behaviour represent failure to adequately perform. Breathtaking incompetence is still worthy of some kind of sensure - lawyers and accountants have codes of practice and boards of conduct - shouldn't C-suite execs as well? There comes a point where ignorance is no excuse - you should have known; you should have asked; you should have satisfied yourself that minimum standards of conduct were being followed. I think that's the lesson to learn here.
Going to be a bus coming along shortly and someone will be getting thrown under it, in court.
Gareth Jenkins I would suspect….seems that everyone is pointing at him for every single problem. A weak, narcissistic fool who was courted by POL to be their ace in the hole for every legal action. Groomed, preened, and soon to be plucked by the same people
Got to love this lady and her pauses before dropping the next bomb (question) that must put the interviewee on an "Oh my God, what's next?" alert!
Whole management should be taken to court and jailed. They all seem to be suffering from corporate amnesia or are lying.
Bet these people still sleep ,the arrogance is how dare you
psychopophy
I can't understand how these people didn't know about the Horizon problems for so long because I have known about them since Private Eye started writing about it and I am an old lady.
Oh they knew long before PE got hold of the story
Yes me too
Having listened to this interview of senior leadership and others many times, it strikes me as remarkable that they can remember great details of little consequence but nothing of the red flags that threatened the very existance of the business and their position. This is 101 basic business acumen. The suggestions from all is that these 'slips' were common place. This is an afront to anyone with a modicum of sense. This is not a case of economy of truth but utter faslehoods. To sit there on your fat pensions while harder working honest people were throne into Dante's hell is beyond belief. I suggest as with others that psychopaths float to the top of large corporations hence the lack of compassion and human decency.
I truly hope these individuals are held accountable and spend the rest of thier unproductive existence rotting away in some dark place.
Looks like the PO was run on the Grace brothers model.
Unfortunately, the analogy is not far out. The Post Office over many decades (centuries?) created its own "reality", which no-one (like the cowed employees of Grace Brothers) had the resources to challenge and so which became ever more detached from the truth of a crooked and corrupt organisation which none dared to challenge...until one day...
'I don't remember' giving real 'The dog ate my homework' vibes!
It’s most appropriate for the lady asking the questions to be dressed in black as if at a funeral because there are reputations and careers dying all over the place in that room 😂.
"Sorry Sir, I'm not going to be able to help you"
Makes one feel that one would like to apply a more pressurising questioning technique.
The female Barrister is brilliantly calm and controlled and relentless however.
What did Miller do for his huge salary? They all were in cahoots and determined not to
drop each other in the mire, thus the poor Sub postmasters were tortured beyond belief.
They all need to be sent to prison for a long stretch.
Breathtaking dereliction of duty, a total lack of interest in ensuring matters are dealt with comprehensively and competently and an apparent indolence that is criminal. Asleep at the wheel doesn't begin to encompass the rank incompetence exhibited by this person. It is a pity that being subjected to being shackled in The Stocks are no longer a firm of punishment.
Question: We ALL know by now that everyone at the top and very many right down to the bottom of the PO knew exactly the gravity of the affect of those Horizon's bugs on convicting, and ruining the lives, of all those sub postmasters and their families. We all know the internal and external legal system/advice knew this too, as well, of course, as Fujitsu. The 'pattern'(!!!) of what was happening for all those years was so painfully obvious.
--> WHO in the government sanctioned/approved the PO's 'Horizon hush policy'? !!!
--> WHO in the government sanctioned/approved the legal system's 'Horizon hush policy'? !!!
We'll soon find out if that same controlling force will have a similar affect on this enquiry once it concludes. It is clear, by now, that criminal investigations must follow on, and subsequent jail time - for many - is obvious.
It seems like they all knew about the problem but they all expected someone else to do something
Probably the young woman, who is questioning David Miller is a hope for Great- Sorry, for Britain. I wish her a great Career!
This inquiry consistantly demonstrates how many 'directors' at companies, obviously here demonstrated solely by the PO, aren't capable enough to hold such positions. Too many are there because of connections from past jobs and friendly interviews, rather than any true demonstrations of critical questioning, leadership, and thorough understanding.
Love the angles of the questions .....WOW!
I've tried to keep an open mind, but Jesus wept!!!! it gets worse and worse...
Crossing your arms is a position of security and defensiveness, what does he need to fear if he is telling the truth and claiming he was, like ALL the others, innocent.
General Question:
Is anyone else having difficulty finding Independent Sites covering the enquiry? YT ALWAYS give me a very limited choice from MSM only - no matter how I phrase the question. This can't be right, surely? There MUST be smaller/independent people covering this. Where are they?
DPS Computing is. He is rather annoyed that he has disappeared from searches. I think that is a function of the way TH-cam does the search. It tends to favour videos with a high number of views, which are the major news outlets.
Agree on DPS. He has very good analysis.
Dps computing is top shelf stuff
The live broadcasts are the best to appreciate the totality as the filtering is zero.
If all this money was missing…… where is it?? There MUST be an account somewhere with it all sitting in! Someone knows!!
The phrase 'rabbit caught in car headlights' comes to mind!
Their answers and excuses are nearly as worthless as their apologies.
The exchange between Sir Wyn Williams and David Miller, from 7.00 to 8.20, amounts to Sir Wyn extracting from Mr. Miller the admission that he had allowed a cover-up to take place.
Stunning negligence.
Selective memory syndrome..
My brother works in a warehouse as a forklift truck driver on minimum wage he got a written warning for putting a role of carpet in the wrong aisle
This guy is on 5x more salary a manager and he doesn't get any admonishing whatsoever ever
The managerial interviews for post office executives:
'If asked can you recall anything that might be of use to us executives?
'Yes'
If asked can you recall anything that may be of use to our workers and the public?
'No'
'Congratualtions, Can you start Monday?'
'Yes'
Mr Miller basically said I did not do what I was paid for! My judgement was misguided and my trust misplaced.
Would he consider paying back some of his salary and bonuses?
Strange that he says he didn't read the info before signing off a claim. Someone needs to look at their manual of authorities. It would appears that either his recollections are wrong or he acted negligently. If only we has a functioning legal system.
Criminal charges should follow.
He remembers the exact words where it helps evade blame, but has no recollection of the issues in the questions that matter.
Fujitsu needs taking to court.
Sadly not going to happen. They are so deep into many government programmes, that they have effective immunity. The best we can hope for is that the government are sufficiently embarrassed, that Fujistu never get any new contracts.
This person deserves to stand in front of a jury and have a fair for the seeming crimes they have committed .
If the police don't act we need to follow Alan Bates and crowdfund such a process. We cannot let these people get away without a trial.
My cheque book is ready if no action is taken.
Let's have some proper justice for teflon executives for a change and get faith back in justice.
Please join me if we need to
Crowd fund for postmaster justi
There are 2 phrase these POL people use most often. " I regret" and "I don't remember"
It appears that not one person is going to be charged let alone convicted of anything so far as a result of this enquiry, the only winners are the solicitors who are on a win win.
I can't remember, I don't recall, I should have done this, I should have done that is no excuse, they must be charged for their wrong doings.
Justice must be done, but more importantly justice must be seen to be done.
It's an inquiry I don't think it has any judicial power as such , but will leave the way open for either the police to charge for negligence or any private prosecutions by the sub- postmasters.
Like you ,I'm hoping they don't all swim off back to the swamp they've crawled out of ...
Selective amnesia in full play.
This po pensioner ON AROUND THE £400K PER ANNUM, was asked if he was INCOMPETENT OR A LIAR ! He chose not to be a LIAR !!!!! therefore, by his own admission HE IS INCOMPETENT................................
Very nice little earner for someone not aware of whats happening around them !!!!!!!!!!!
Happy Days.
What's the point of this expensive hearing if they can easily reject any responsibility 😮
The new motto of, "Post Office" should be, "NOT ME, GOV!"
Wyn rinses him!!
Lawks alive .... none of these executives, nor those lower down the chain, would have had any idea they'd be ripped to bits, however gently, in public like this. I doubt that Sir Wyn Williams' final report is going to be gentle at all; whenever he's asked a question, it's like a skewer pushed through a succulent joint of meat. What was that old cop show? No Hiding Place?
I can’t remember, I didn’t read the document and I was on holiday at the time🤣🤣🤣
He was bounced into an unscheduled meeting, told the legal people had found a problem with the case and without reading or understanding any of the details, just signed off on paying a settlement of about £180,000 … on the spot… I don’t think I believe a word of it. That’s a huge amount of money to be signing away (considering when this was) and anyone in that job would have wanted chapter and verse before doing so…
Sitting there with your 10K watch on.
They all remember that they are innocent of anything but don't remember details,no one appears to remember reading anything regarding the documents .
He knew it was wrong and did nothing, still no empathy or shame.....They all look guilty..
He just got RINSED!
It's perfectly obvious this chap has been very carefully coached to give the very shortest answers possible to each question.
The long term damage this does to trust in UK branded businesses is incalculable.
They cant remember they don’t recall. It was a long time ago and yet they can remember the charges against the Post Master/mistress’s Elaine Cottam could rhyme off word for word the charge against mrs Wolstenholme
With executives like this , Britain is in dire trouble, no wonder we don’t make anything in this country, and have sold all are assets abroad ,
Nuremberg defence
This is the man in 1999 who originally said that Horizon was 'robust' when there were known faults. Every (every!!) machine had 30 minute down time every month. It was known to be defective from the start. He then covered up the Coyne report again in 2003. It was a Titanic disaster except he saw the iceberg.
I can remember ridiculous levels of detail from work and meetings that I dealt with going back into the 80s and earlier. It beggars belief that these people really have so little knowledge or recollection of the work and people that they were involved with much more recently.
Here’s an exert from a senior POL managers interview panel.
Questioner. So, can we just ask, have you ever heard of the phrase, “Corporate Dementia”?
Interviewee. “ Er.. I might have I can’t remember.”
Q. When did you hear about it?
I. “ We’ll I can’t answer specifically, but I do know I would have done.”
Q. “Would have or should have?”
“ Sorry I can’t remember specifics.”
Q. “Was it from a colleague?”
I. “ I can’t remember.”
Q. “Congratulations you’ve got the job!”
😡😡
All of them knew about it right up into government, and they all decided that money instead of honesty was the way to go.
Management and bureaucrats - “I want this high paying job and all the responsibility and accountability that comes with it”
As soon as something goes wrong - “well it’s not my fault, I’m not responsible”……
Arms folded! A defensive body language!!
Paying off a single postmaster whose own expert witness finds a Horizon fault...to keep it quiet....and seeking no further investigation or asking no further questions.
Put them on trial and let’s make sure there are some ordinary citizens can remember more than these criminals
This was going for 20 years and no one stopped it.
It is time for the Government to start building New Prisons to hold all people involved in this Scandal responsible for there actions and all MP's as well??
Not only are the post office managers culpable and should face criminal sanctions to stop these high powered executives just walking away, but really really we need to have a serious look at our legal system!!!
What scrutiny did the defence Barristers give their cases! I know that they always try to get a plea to avoid court time but all this must instigate a review of the way our legal system operates. These Barristers cannot have done their jobs properly. They must have been incompetent
"Should've"? He knew exactly what was going on.