Fujitsu boss cornered over Horizon scandal at Post Office Inquiry
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ม.ค. 2024
- After sitting in front of the Business and Trade Committee earlier this week, director of Fujitsu Services Paul Patterson was at the Post Office inquiry this afternoon getting grilled yet again over his company's faulty Horizon software.
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The Post Office EDITED OUT witness statements from fujitsu that included references to bugs and errors. Absolute bastards.
Couldn’t agree more, it’s a shame that heads are unlikely to roll.
what is your evidence for this statement?
@rewIndustry its been the testimony of a number of witnesses. They edited the statements.
exactly - absolute bastards
So that will be a clear offence of perverting the course of justice.
This evidence seems to be digging a very deep legal hole beneath the Post Office. This guy's candour and willingness to answer questions with a simple 'yes' and 'I agree' is extremely refreshing.
the rest reply can't remember or it was a long time ago,never heard so much people lying about the same subject
Did nobody in the Fujitsu Horizon IT department and especially the Helpdesk and other support groups never read Computer Weekly or Private Eye?
Whereas both Fujitsu and PO middle manager appear to be without moral compass, functioning memory and bereft of basic management ability in their attempts to avoid answering the question and deflecting blame. They really have made our politicians look slick and professional in comparison.
a pound to a pinch of shit they read computer weekly@@Wee_Langside
Yep, shocking to see someone give a one word answer. Obviously not a politician, won't see this at the Covid enquiry for example.
Finally a witness willing to give straight answers and not try to give corporate fluff in their answers
Clearly, Fujitsu informed the Post Office about the bugs, but the Post Office has decided to ignore this information.
... decided to conceal this information.
i suspected so all along this was a con with in post office and the goverments who inherited this fault.no wonder the tory put a lib dem lacky in charge to take the blame .
The Post Office management and investigators (including the obnoxious scumbag who gave evidence a few days ago) knew perfectly well that there were bugs in the system. They didn't *_ignore_* that; they deliberately concealed this fact and lied in their witness statements in court cases against subpostmasters.
The truth is cruel. This news has even spread around the world the attitude of the UK to hold Japanese companies accountable.
@@KEN-fn2ld The issue appears to be Post Office's response to bugs and errors reported by Fujitsu. Fujitsu,as far as I know, did not prosecute postmasters.
This man couldn't have been more honest, if only the Post Office lot and our MPs gave honest answers!
100% agree , seems too decent a bloke to be working for fujitsu ot po!! thank god for some truth in this case.
Having worked in a Bank's IT department, I know that Bugs, errors and defects are common in all major IT systems. The difference in this case is the way the Post office chose to ignore all and any possibilities of the impact of the Bugs and errors on the prosecutions of Postmasters.
Earlier evidence by Fujitsu employees suggests to me, that for a least one issue, the IT personnel thought it was a one off. Anybody who has had dealings with a multi-user systems knows that no fault is a one off, if one person can break a system then another can.
It also appears that faults occurred if the sub-postmaster was working on the system at the same time as the weekly run was taking place at ~7pm. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that sub-postmasters would be working at that time on any evening but especially when the weekly financial report is going to be run. Why do a major backup when people will be working on the system? why not run in the early hours?
I don't remember ever seeing a software contract (EULA or bespoke development/support contract) that did not say something like "the supplier does not warrant that the software will be defect or error free". Moreover, software development / support contracts focus more on how defects and errors will be remedied when they are found - there is never any doubt that there will be bugs.
20 YEARS an new!! an keep send people to prison !!! So it's new a police matter al should be arrested
With bail
I was shocked to discover that Horizon was written on Visual Basic, a language intended for home/educational use not one for a large commercial programme due to its error reporting and architecture making creation of bugs when first authoring or making modifications/additions quite likely..
@@matthewn1805 Hence the reference to the Windows Error Log in evidence earlier in the week when talking about error handling?
They should pay the entire compensation bill and the post office top dogs should have their bonuses taken back and all should be facing criminal charges. If any average citizen caused this much harm and suffering said citizen would be locked up for a very long time.
Why should they pay all of it. If they told the customer the correct information about errors but the customer choose to ignore or amend that information, who is at fault
@@marshyman66 Fujitsu sent so called expert witnesses to court on behalf of the PO when they already knew there was an issue with the system. They caused irreparable damage to thousands of individuals by being instrumental in enabling the PO to continue covering it up. They are culpable and caused the whole shit show. The top dogs at the PO should not be spared though. Take their money via multi million pound fines and criminally charge them for at least fraud. The tax payer should not pay a single penny.
And the board of directors.
Withholding exculpatory evidence.
That’s judicial misconduct.
That’s jail time right there
@@fireskycam9889 im holding my breath. Never gonna happen without demonstrations.
Executives who knew about this should be sent to prison for destroying the lives of others.
He seemed slightly taken aback when asked about compensation for relatives of those falsely convicted. One postmaster was disowned by his father and ended up being sectioned three times. Others accused family members of stealing when they couldn't balance the books. What about the families whose wrongly-convicted relative killed themselves? It affected entire families, most of whom will never be the same again. To think such lives were expendable in order to protect a brand (now trashed) is beyond any normal human being's belief. Jail sentences for those in the know MUST follow. Financial punishment won't cut it.
They won 57m in 2019. Did you knew that ?
Yes I knew that. Did you know after paying out the lawyers fees, each wrongly-convicted postmaster was left with just £20,000 each?? And they didn't 'win' anything. Their own money was stolen by the Post Office and then used to fund bonuses. They haven't even been given their own money back. Did you know that? @@marshyman66
Which went mainly on legal fees for the claimants as costs were not ordered against the PO.@@marshyman66
@@marshyman66 Some did. 80% of that went to lawyers. The compensation should 10x, if not 100x that to be made whole.
@@billgreen576 I do not object to that at all. As long as the lawyers get no more. They seem to be on a gravy train here
I watched Mr Patterson's evidence in full - he wasn't "cornered" as your tagline suggests - he came across to me as very open and honest - he didn't seek to cover up or defend Fujitsu's involvement at all - he was very candid and forthcoming
Otherwise any future criminal court case would result in him being found guilty of conspiracy to defraud. On that basis I would be very careful giving him to much credit.
He is not comfortable answering the questions. The stress he is going through is clearly on display. I agree with you, that he does appear to be answering honestly.
As far as I am aware two Fujitsu "witnesses" are under investigation for perjury and perverting the course of justice - I would have thought fraud would be difficult to establish in circumstances where Fujitsu appear to have alerted the Post Office to their concerns about the reliability of the audit data. I am not defending Fujitsu in any shape or form I'm just observing that I found this witness refreshingly forthcoming and honest in a shameful case of deception, cover up and wrongful prosecution. @@1inchPunchBowl
@@colinhill7068 As I have pointed out elsewhere, he has no choice at this stage. Any lies could end him in court on criminal conspiracy charges.
If he knew why didn't he do something about it
So...Fuji informed the PO as and when a bug was found starting before 2000. Evidence statements provided by Fuji employees which had any reference to bugs were edited by the PO (or their legal team) to remove any reference to system faults. Criminal.
At last someone on here has analysed the reports, evidence and statements and see's what happened.
Perverting the course of justice surely
@@nharper1968 and perjury.
it's ok those ceo have been well looked after by the tory and we told they did all that for free.
Are we expected to believe that none of the Royal Mail’s or Fujitsu’s employees had any knowledge of this whole fiasco? Not ONE whistleblower, over decades.
Not once did he say " i dont recall , i can't remember "
Came across as open and provided information and hopefully a commitnent to exonerate and compensate all the Post masters.
He also came across as a CEO who didn't know or didn't care about how the business was run before he joined....😡
you must be an employee of Fujitsu with your support. Get a life muppet.
1. He knows he's bang to rights & culpable as the CEO, & 2. He knows that the response " I dont recall , i can't remember " has been rinsed beyond being a joke now in these inquiries
It's a shame he didn't provide information to the court to stop this misjustice he is as guilty as the rest.
Yeah, he was hardly "cornered" or "grilled". More like "Fujitsu CEO sits in corner and invites stuttering stammering guy to ask any and all questions and answers them honestly and plainly" lol
Think it’s worth mentioning, this in my eyes, appears to be the only guy giving straight answers. He wasn’t at the company I don’t believe for much of this, yet appears to be the only taking responsibility.
dont be fooled by his appearance.
He was at Fujitsu from 2012
I've no doubt that Fujitsu senior management, having seen the way the Inquiry has gone thus far, has realised the jig is up and decided to come clean in an attempt to minimise the harm that comes to them. Pleading guilty in the hope of a more lenient sentence, etc.
@@bigpants6121@Milkydrummer did not talk about the guys appearance, my friend. From what I have seen, the persons asked up to this man were non-answering almost every question. This man does answer clearly and openly and admits to knowledge he has, Fujitsu had from as early as 1999 and that many people at Fujitsu have been aware of, about the errors, bugs and defects in the Horizon software. No other person‘s testimony I have seen did that. This man even agreed, that the communication about these errors, bugs and defects should have been included in the information provided to the post office inquiries from the very beginning. No one else questioned before ever admitted to anything like that.
So he appears to be forthcoming, open and willing to honestly answer and not by his appearance.
dont waste my time 'friend' His appearance has everything to do with his culpability.@@SuperArnie
The documents provided in this inquiry show that Fujitsu and the Post Office knew about the bugs and issues and problems they were causing, yet went ahead with prosecutions.
Yep, so whoever authorised the prosecutions should go to prison.
We've known this for ages lol...
Well what it actually shows is that the post office abused their knowledge of the system flaws to prosecute and then Fujitsu found themselves party to the abuse but didn't want to say anything, in order to protect their reputation.
Meaning that the people responsible, in the post office, need to be jailed and exclusively held responsibile for the crime.
As someone who is studying software, iterating flaws is fundamental and commonplace but for some reason the post office didn't subscribe to this philosophy and this then caused Fujitsu's software team to circumnavigate the agile principles. With the view that they now were responsible for the post office's malpractice and to make note of the problem would lead to culpability.
However this would turn out to be ironic because their inaction was what lead to their culpability.
@@leroygoldbridge8874and have their personal assets confiscated
The fact they know about the bug does not mean they understand the bug or its impact.
I feel that, unlike many of his colleagues interviewed this week, Paul Patterson came over very well and seemed to answer the questions honestly and openly.
very well? Posties committed suicide because of Fujitsu's bugs.
@@bigpants6121 I think you have misunderstood my comment. I'm not defending Fujitsu in any way at all. If you have watched the rest of the interviews in full this week you might understand my point. In my opinion many others this week deserve to face criminal action.
Yes totally agree. I’ve now watched all todays evidence and he came over very well and looks like he is very frank and completely honest is his disclosure giving a full comprehensive witness statement that doesn’t try to cover anything up.
you are so gullible and naive.@@stewartsimon8304
@@bigpants6121postmasters thanks
I've been watching this inquiry from day 1, and the professionalism and line of questioning by the KC are superb. Each person is asked very gentle question and their responses dissected allowing them to dig some very deep holes.
Agreed. The whole investigative team have been excellent, and totally in command of their brief. Hugely impressive, given the sheer amount of evidence they've had to get to grips with.
KCs are an almost unique group of people who can circle their prey and surgically extract the critical facts, eventually reaching the truth.
If Vennells is unwise enough to give evidence I wonder who will be given the job of unmasking her as a liar. Jason has the factual ammo but he'll need to outwit her. She'll blur the issues and blunt his questions. She will make him look pedantic and bullying. I doubt she'll budge an inch. She is ordained by God remember.
@@martinross5521 Brilliant analogy. The KC's questioning here is quite remarkable and gently presented with total professionalism. The denouement came when the KC stated Fujitsu knew about the system's poor reliability and indeed plethora of bugs for over 2 decades. When the flowchart was analysed there was no mention of the 'known error log'. Carefully concealed by Fujitsu. Checkmate.
@@martinplatt5928 I’ve only been watching the inquiry since the ITV drama. But the people dragged in have been an assortment of liars, avoiders and bullies until the MD arrived. I give him credit for being honest. But why on earth can the PO still hold Second Sight to a confidentiality agreement even now? This should be ripped up before Phase 5 starts. Next week: investigators tell how they blackmailed and bullied postmasters/mistresses into admiring guilt when they were innocent. All done while the government looked the other way 🤬
All postmasters and postmistresses affected should (1)be refunded for financial losses plus interest, (2) receive appropriate compensation for distress and suffering caused and (3) all politicians, senior post office management and post office investigaters should face criminal charges and stand trial for corrupt practices. They were trying to protect the Post Office name and instead have damaged it forever.
I agree 100%. Here are the offences committed:
1. Malicious Prosecution.
2. Perverting The Course Of Justice.
3. Fraud.
4. Malfeasance In Public Office.
As a retired Detective Constable I will happily carryout the arrests, interviews and case file preparation for free. I will also attend each trial as “the officer in the case” for no charge. My investigations would be according to the rules that police officers have to follow to ensure the offenders are treated correctly - PACE (Police And Criminal Evidence Act 1984). There would be no offer of plea bargaining and the offenders would be charged and prosecuted for every offence that they have committed, including perjury. My first arrest would Paula Vennells. I’d like to see how she copes with a custody cell, being photographed and fingerprinted and popped into a Magistrates Court for a committal hearing.
@@stevehaynes2857 Vennells is the one holding the pass the parcel bomb when it went off. There are potentially hundreds of culpable people over the last 35 years.
This guy comes across as being open regarding what he knew, which is refreshing in this case. However, what needs to be at the forefront of this inquiry is that four people committed suicide due to the horrendous treatment they underwent. Not only do the other surviving postmasters need to be properly compensated By Fujitsu and the P.O. but those who knew about faults and conspired to continue regardless need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They have blood on their hands and need to be held to account.
The Fujitsu boss is being very open and honest. Not like some on the PO side
Fujitsu certainly was not for the last 20 yrs until caught out. But now you want to give him a free pass? Crikey.
@@1inchPunchBowl he is the only person who has been honest to be fair
@@paulrichards6894Unless he wants to be charged with a criminal cover up & imagine he had no choice.
@@1inchPunchBowl the others claimed amnesia
@@1inchPunchBowl I suggest you re read my comment. It's only 16 words long. Then explain how my post says
1 anything about previous statements from Fujitsu
2 How pointing out the truth on what was said in this hearing is giving him a free pass
So why then, was the chief software architect allowed to claim it had none? Their lawyers should have told him that was perjury.
Where did he say that. ?
@@marshyman66Gareth Jenkins, at the previous court testimony.
@@wckoek I need to research that. Give me a day. If he did say that then he wrong. Fundamentals of debugging process
@@marshyman66 mr Jenkins postponed inquiry questioning twice. To save you a day of time, read 'Clark Advice' from Post Office lawyer Simon Clark - Jenkins give evidence at court that convicted the victims saying the system is not "corrupt", the post office lawyer known the evidence is flawed and posed an insurance risk.
I worked in IT for over 30 years. No "software architect", software engineer, analyst, programmer or indeed ANYONE who has worked in software in ANY capacity can claim the software they worked on "has no bugs". It is impossible to prove. One always assumes that there are bugs, you either know about them or they haven't been found yet. Even NASA and military software has bugs, just not as many as commercial software!
Paul Patterson seems to be the only one so far interviewed in this inquiry that has answered honestly. The Post Office crooks seem to all have developed a bug and glitch in their memory. Ironic
incompetence, wrongdoing, fraud, and perjury. fines and jail surely. and a complete moral vacuum amongst the lot
Fujitsu seem willing and ready to answer questions and accept facts.
It's so refreshing.
I am used to Government ministers and in Post Office leaders not doing so.
Refreshing.
Yes because the CPS has launched a criminal investigation. Don't be so naive.
do they seem willing to pay the posties? You seem gullible.
@@bigpants6121 Fujitsu has confirmed that they will contribute once the enquiry is complete. Remember the postmasters already won 57m
But not paying compensation!
@@edcoad4930 Fujitsu have state a moral responsibility to pay. What more do you want at this stage
This CEO has just removed the post office's safety net and cut their harness line, then pushed them out on the broken trapeze.
He has made it clear that the post office didn't care about justice or integrity just conviction rates because that meant bonuses all round. From the top down this is an operation that perverted the course of justice for hundreds of instances, Vennells and her minions should be prosecuted for every single case. Then sentenced for each one separately the sentences to run consecutively, in order that they know on year x day y in prison they are there because they destroyed the life, character and reputation of z. It will probably need a prison to be built just for them, the wings can be named after those who took their own lives because of it except for one. The Grenfell wing is for those responsible for killing 71 people, built in the hope that it will house them during their sentences.
"well known to all parties"
"Where sub-postmasters aware of those bugs?"
Easy.
No.
@@iainwares6361. Yes. They won there case in 2019
Given that they reported them, to some extent they were aware. However the bugs were not taken into sufficient consideration by Post Office Prosecutors, and Post Masters were told they were 'the only ones' with those reported issues.
Not until much later on, I ran a PO and I was not told of these issues.
His testimony is that the sub-postmasters didnt know about the bugs to provide a suitable defence
He is the ONLY person in this whole disaster who seems to show any integrity.
I agree. The title of this footage is deeply unfair
Don't believe it. He's worked at Fushitsu since 2010. He knows everything that's been going on. He's just telling you what you want to hear.
Fool me once, fool me twice. Shame on you.
He came into his post in 2019 so he wasn’t even present during all the issues. This is why he is open and confident
He was Fujitsu sales manager in 2010. He would be torn to shreds in a court. He knows all about stitching these innocent people up. I hope he ends up in jail just like our local sub postmaster. @@SarahHanes-bf6ns
Jail the appropriate people this time
Unbelievable coverup from the post office. I feel that they haven't touched the surface with this cover up. I'm sure that they will be plenty more to harvest in this cover up.
Many in the PO deliberately withheld evidence, committed perjury & could be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice
Bugs, not glitches. Glitches are technical errors caused by faulty or damaged hardware. Bugs are errors in the code that can (and should) be corrected.
Or an unexpected outcome within a technically working system.
Glitches are a result of an unexpected deign flaw rather than faulty code.
I would ague that the post office used the bugs as an exploit to get more money from people with the legal battle.
This was not all to bugs in software. There were glitches in network performance and also issues with hardware performance at the central location based on resilience design and business continuity process. It was not one thing
@@marshyman66 Exactly. Network latency issues and connectivity drop-outs caused major problems, it seems.
Many of those people who was employed by the Post office and Fujitsu was complicit in giving spurious evidence which sent many innocent sub -postmasters to be convicted because of the impact of their evidence, to such an extent that it caused false criminal convictions, imprisonments, loss of livelihood and homes, debt and bankruptcy and took a dramatic toll on victims and their families, leading to stress, illness, divorce and even worse than that, suicides.
Why should these deplorable people that lied and hide the truth from the police enquires, not themselves be sent to prison for their act of perjury by preventing the course of justice from reaching the rightful decision, by returning verdicts of not guilty of all these cases brought to trial.
Nothing "cornered" about him. Open, honest, doesn't evade and is precisely what's needed, honesty and transparency. Thank you Mr Patterson.
I once worked a at a large University in the Marketing Dept. Our call centre had to use a bespoke CM system, that kept crashing. The call centre staff and myself were sent off for training, as we were told by the supplier that we were causing the problems. I asked the "instructor" to show us how the system should work, on the liver server ( not on a local network in their training room ). As they tried to save some incoming call info, their system crashed, and could not be restarted. I then asked the trainer to bring their sales manager into the room, and advised him that they seemed to be in breach of their supplier agreement and asked him why we should be expected to keep paying their monthly license fee, and that we also expected a credit for the last 18 months of their license fee. He was stunned.
Malice and utter contempt for their employees. Shameful! Not only should heads roll, but there should also be prosecutions of senior management. As for compensation, anyone affected by this should never worry about money for the rest of their lives. Not to be payed for by the tax payer. Jujitsu needs to be liable and Post Office accountable.
Horizon should never have passes fujitsus release testing, nor the post office acceptance tests.
It should never have been rolled out.
At last someone who understands release management. We need to know who authorised release at the PO
Each major release had a number of open incidents at the conclusion of joint (FJ and POL) testing. The early releases.. much like a release of Windows.. were followed by patches and updates.
@@steveevans4299 you can't release with critical level bugs, and that's what they were
It’s not even a case that Horizon should never have passed Fujitsu’s release testing…
The software itself should never even have seen the light of day, let alone rolled out nationwide…
In Nick Wallis’s book, he interviewed a software project manager, who was around in the software’s early stages: basically the powers that be decided to use the original “prototype” software, and build on the actual prototype software itself…
In software development, that’s something you should never do…
To use the analogy used in the book, if it was a design for an office block building, it was the equivalent of taking the small design model of the building (made of plastic etc) and trying to build the actual building structure (i.e concrete etc) on top of the plastic model…
it was a recipe for total disaster…
@@logant6490 Releases were not made with critical bugs found in Test. The critical level bugs you refer to were found in Live operation.. not in system testing. They were then addressed, although some were impossible to reproduce, and took a while to fix.
I first knew about this scandal around 2010, when I read an article about it then. It was obviously an IT issue - I worked as a software engineer - and I simply don't get that any court would believe otherwise.
The whole system is screwed, and we need a (peaceful) revolution.
I read about motorists being fined for pulling into a bus lane as an ambulance was on an emergency call. When appealing the council refused. This lack of care or fairness at the centre of ‘our’ systems is representative of how bad things have become. Discretion gone to be replaced by uncaring compliance. Something rotten at the centre of our institutions.
As someone who's been on the recieving end of multiple system implementations, I'm struggling to see exactly what fujitsu has done wrong - aside from holding back the known error log, which is insane. I use those all the time during a rollout and beyond. But I'd bet money the Post Office requested it to be held back.
The prosecution and the defence teams need to be reviewed as well. The miscarriage of justice lies in their lack of knowledge and integrity
@@joisagirlsname The KEL (Known Error Log) was fully shared with Post Office.
@@steveevans4299 according to the testimony, it was held back... the full circumstances of the time frame and reason wasn't covered. It was clearly released at some point and shared with the post office, but it's quite clear this information wasn't made available to subpostmasters. I guess this was a while back, but I'm in the KEL all the time for months after any rollout. Most people are, aren't they?
OMG full exposure, they knew and so did Post Office, PAY THE PEOPLE
You can't fix a bug unless the purchaser works with you to resolve it. When the post office is telling sub postmasters there's no problem, and refusing to deliver the information to resolve the error, the bug can't be fixed.
Ah, so Fujitsu are blameless ? Whilst they go around calling the postmasters a 'nasty man?'
@@leroygoldbridge8874 it wasn't fujitsu lying to subpostmasters about the existence of the bugs and prosecuting them. From what I've seen so far, fujitsu have acted in accordence with what the client has requested and tried to remedy the issues while their CLIENT the Post Office refused to work with them to resolve the issue and instead exploited it for financial gain. It was the Post Office DELETING references to the known issues log from the witness statements.
@@joisagirlsname Rubbish Fujitsu operated the help desk for Horizon therefore would be the first to have knowledge of any bugs, errors etc. Just look at the already reported error reporting/resolving method.
@@matthewn1805. Ok so if you have read that process please tell us all what was wrong with it. Of potential 6 million transactions and 0.002% error rate, so 120 a day the vast majority were scrutinised understood and fixed. You really don't know what you are talking about
Utterly shameful. How many lives destroyed? And so many in power complicit!
4 took their own lives
Same systems and practices in the dwp. 300k excess deaths in 14 years after a national hunt for scroungers and fraudsters. Social murder.
It was because it's political, the P. O. bosses grovelling to the government. On the greasy pole, no one gives a shit.
Do you happen to read The Sun?
@@pi5549I think the suicides were reported elsewhere. Regardless, if you find yourself in huge debt beyond your assets or savings and being vilified in your local community for theft when you've done nothing untoward, I'm sure it will have a serious negative impact!.
People are commenting that £57 million was won in the earlier case, most of that money went to legal fees because the Court did not award Costs against the PO. The disgraceful thing I learnt today was the charge that Fujitsu made for its staff attending Court as witnesses for the PO in many cases. Just one case today Fujitsu charged £20.000 for one witness.. I hope someone asks how much Fujitsu made from these Court Cases, those charges would have been added to any costs that the convicted Sub Postmasters/Mistresses would have had to pay. No wonder so many of them were later declared bankrupt.
I think this is because the media keep repeat this lie all the time £57M sounds a lot - until you are told most of this went to the worms and parasites.
Bit of a clickbait title- he wasn’t “cornered “, he simply answered the questions put to him without obfuscation.
I worked for the NHS for 20 years, there were bugs and defects, errors in the computer systems dealing with patients records which were shared by hospitals across the country. So no computer system operates robustly. The post office needs to cough up compensation immediately and those who have lied and indeed committed grievous harm to the post masters must serve time in person.
Mr Beer is a top class lawyer/solicitor, he and his team obviously done their Mise en Place.
It’s taken the Post Office years just to say “ sorry”
This is quite damning, because any corporate organization who would think they had a chance in this scenario would never be this forthcoming. No way
They're aware that they aren't liable because they've acted correctly. Hence the transparency.
I agree, but don't Fujitsu have an obligation to inform authorities if they felt the Post Office were prosecuting under false information ? @@joisagirlsname
puts more blame on post office. It was them that decided to prosecute. Fujitsu tried to cover faults in software.@@joisagirlsname
We've known this for a long time. Harriet Harmon said it back in 99. Private eye have reported that it was known before it was put into use for years.
Fujitsu boss's direct and unequivocal responses are far more impressive than the evidence given by the Post Office boss, who seemed to be either unaware, evasive or perhaps both.
Disagree. This guy has admitted, without any pressure, just how appalling his company's behaviour was over the decades.
My questions would be. Did Fujitsu carry out FAT (factory acceptance test), did they carry out any soak tests, did they carry out a SAT (site acceptance test) did they run this software in shadow or ghost mode such that the existing system could operate as normal with the new software in shadow mode alongside but having no effect on the existing. How long was the pilot period. Was that pilot period carried out at a select set of premises, or across the piece.
Did they in fact at the FAT stage, try their hardest to break the system, hack the system or otherwise knacker it up completely?
I wouldn't trust Fujitsu to empty my bins!
Agreed - Who trained the Postmasters/staff - Training is a Key Factor here with non-technical, middle-age, not I.T. savy staff!
14 million lines of code. 5 tier testing environments (Development & Continuous Integration /System Validation/Live System (inc. Regression) /Volume/Model Office). Joint testing teams POL & FJ. The scandal here is not that an extremely complex IT system had issues, but that Post Masters were considered guilty before being assumed innocent.
i agree with this. Its standard corporate shittines that Fujitsu did what they did however that does not mean that they were making the PO prosecute PM's.@@steveevans4299
This is a story of a complex I.T. system VERSUS hundreds of middle-aged, non-technical individuals who were poorly trained to understand or operate it. Then add in the Post Office Executives (Time Lag Factor) who acted as judge, jury and executioner because the system was "unsafe" from the outset. The technical errors were compounded by Post Office executives delays and half-truths and lives were ruined. The Post Office "a communication company", failed to communicate with Fujitsu and its Postmasters, in other words CRAP LEADERSHIP & MANAGEMENT all at public expense. Shame on all parties . . . .
Exactly
I think this is like the titanic where everyone was told it was 'unsinkable' - only to find the opposite was the case. But sister ships at the time had known stress fractures but this was only known to engineers.
If there is no jail time for anyone, the whole system is broken.
I will be flabbergasted if anyone goes to prison. Lawyers will drag it out for donkeys years.
Privateisation does not work anyone seen the artical by novara media where they got hold of documents from avanti west rail where it clearly states the goverment provide then with further funding to run a less than satisfactory service or between 7-9 out of ten and never a 10 out of ten service. The country is litterally failing and the shocking way privatisation has failed is a sure sign that capatalisum in general is now very questionable
It's not capitalism, it's human beings are always the problem.
No, it shows that the majority making decisions are completely incompetent re. IT and contracts.
Just listen to any politician, or manager in PO and elsewhere.
Clueless, lazy and easily bought off.
I would suggest learning how to spell capitalism before commenting on economic systems.
This was interesting and refreshing. Someone at last being straight.
I think Fujitsu failed to deliver on their service/sales promise and struggled to get on top of the complexity of the challenge they undertook. But in fairness, IT capability in the late 90's and into the "2000's" was in its infancy really. So I have some sympathy towards Fujitsu. Fujitsu are guilty of not doing a good job, but they broke no laws.
Fundamentally this should not be referred to as the 'Horizon Scandal', it should be referred to as the "Post Office Management scandal". The Post Office - and the Post Office alone - repeatedly made the decisions to prosecute and treat the postmasters as they did.
The more Post Office management and executives I see the worse this organisation becomes. Frankly it's about the inept and negligent management by the Post Office leadership team of the business.
The Post Office is guilty in the legal sense, and the directors should be held to account and face prosecution as they have failed in their legally binding duties as directors.
Post office and Fujitsu uk are multi million pound companies, biggest scandal in the uk, why did they let this happen , it astonishing that the post office is not closed down , the staff involved should face criminal trial
A national embarrassment.
When executives take the salary but are too lazy to do the RIGHT thing! It looks like Fujitsu are the only ones with any honour here. How many P.O. executives have fallen on their swords?
None of the prosecution’s could have happened without their lawyers acting like criminals
I have worked with IT systems for more than 4 decades and a Journal file that records every transaction, Time minute second, User I'd, Detail Amount and Any Change amendment deletion to any transaction are provided in all the IT Banking, Accounting, Payroll systems are part of the system.
I'm seeing Steve Coogan playing this guy in the blockbuster remake.
At least the bloke in the dock held his hands up. Very rare but bang to rights.
This guy seems honest, and knows Fujitsu screwed up big time.
I can’t help but think the only reason Fujitsu/their lawyers would let this guy be this open is because they feel confident it’s not going to damage their position any further, in contrast to the Fujitsu minions staying tight lipped.
Were fujitsu procecuting Pm's if not tjen its on the P0.@@andyb3666
At last a person of integrity
you are so naive and gullible.
This seems to be, if the witness is reliable, damning evidence to show the post office senior staff destroyed peoples lives knowing their prosecutions were false. This is really sick.
Mr Patterson is guilty of course, but he has been candid & honest unlike others who have sat in the same seat.
This guy is a breath of fresh air in this case but I cant help but feel he is committing career suicide but being too honest. A complete legend in my view!
He came into his post in 2019 so he wasn’t even present during all the issues. This is why he is open and confident
The only truthful, engaging interaction I’ve seen in this enquiry!! The rest has been bulls it, legal team, lawyer speak, baseless empty answers, he is either a genius or genuine either way he not avoiding the truth 😮
His testimony is such a contrast with the obfuscation and deflection we see from the Post Office. Whatever Fujitsu may turn out to be responsible for, at least they're honest and sincerely trying to grapple with it.
The Fujitsu support document shows remote access to vm as admin feature -more postmasters and postmistresses now got courage to tell their stories after just paying a forced fine
So what. The vast majority of managed systems has remote access feature. How are you suppose to fix it. Do read up on managed support services please
This system was bespoke - written to the customer's specifications. Remote Access was specified. If was too complex to operate by the average Post Master
Unlike Enron there is absoluely no chance of anyone being sent down.
Paul Patterson, good on you for being so succinct and honest
The guy wast not cornered he was not part of the company at the time, and clearly cares more about his own reputation ie integretee. As aposed to covering for the company he now works for. So fair play to him he seemed to be very honest and upfront.
The whole scandal is a farce. Both Fujitsu and the post office are fully accountable for their actions. I think some people should be going to prison for this.
A large number of people.
The Horizon system was faulty at launch ,which they knew . Unbelievable .
All software has bugs, that's why companies have a support contact.
You have no clue. The system processed over 6 million transactions a day. It was not faulty. It has bugs and glitches just like your pc software and mobile phone. That's what support team do
@@marshyman66 "It was not faulty" - you just watched Paul Patterson admit the system had known faults for over two decades.
"Just like your PC software or mobile phone" - Horizon is not a trivial piece of software built for your mobile phone, it's an accounting and inventory system used to hold postmasters to account of their daily finances, and when discrepancies appear postmasters are under legal obligation to repay them or face criminal prosecution. It is NOT acceptable for a system of such importance to be faulty for over two decades. "That's what support do" - Fujitsu support knowingly ignored these known faults and lied to postmasters. You obviously see yourself as hightly experienced in large IT system procurement and support, is this what a support team should be doing? To me that doesn't seem like normal practise required for a fully functioning system. Correct me if I'm wrong, since you are an expert.
@@scottbrown4142. Please state where Fujitsu doctored the information. Please state where Fujitsu lied to the postmasters. As my research uncovers there were discussions with specific incidents where support desk were unclear what the incident was about. The PO had all the relevant information needed from a technical level. Fujitsu did not manipulate witness statements. Please highlight where this was stated in the court evidence. Next time you have a incorrect direct debit or a electric bill estimated change to your monthly payment without your consent just remember what you say about large computer systems. You are naive in your assumptions about the computer world. I don't see myself as experienced in these systems but the government does.
@@scottbrown4142if you only release software that had zero bugs or faults you’ll never release anything. Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, all big software companies constantly deliver fixes to bugs. Even on software that’s years old
Deceit, dishonesty, and sheer malevolence from a government owned business. The last people I would trust to sort out this mess would be parliamentarians .
Surely when this is all unravelled, there will be people with names and faces who are guilty of perverting the course of justice, be they Post Office employees/management or their legal team. Let's hope they are punished to the full with Lifetime Prison Sentences. Honesty and integrity is missing and this is not what we expect from them.
Agree that Patterson appears to be sincere. It takes a lot for me to say that in this whole sordid saga in which the cast appear to comprise thickos, arrogant nonentities, amnesiacs, thugs, and unprincipled deflectors. Truly shocking that evidence from some Fujitsu witnesses was either withheld or doctored in order to obtain illegal convictions. Perjury and perverting the course of justice were rife. Immediate action should be taken to bring all those guilty of this to justice as soon as possible.
Twenty years they’ve known about the bugs. Innocent people were prosecuted. Evidence about the bugs, errors and defects were hidden. This is pure criminal behaviour. The people responsible for covering this up need to be prosecuted and given appropriate (possibly custodial) sentences.
Impressive witness dealing honestly with an indefensible position. Refreshing and the absolutely correct way to proceed.
Bugs, errors and defects exist in all systems. These should have been classed as 'known errors' and have Problem Reports opened for resolution.
Fujitsu lied and have proven themselves to be incompetent. The Post Office and Fujitsu conspired to defraud subpostmasters. Corporate entities can be fined and punished but there's no chance of any one individual seeing the inside of a prison cell.
This chap came over as open and fair.
You are incorrect in your statement. The system completed over 6 million transactions a day with 0.002 errors. 98% of those errors were identified, understood and corrected. You don't know what you are talking about.
@@marshyman66 That sounds about right - It was (and is, in it's 3rd Generation/Iteration) in fact an software engineering marvel. The most complex IT project in European history. The scandal here is not that an IT system had issues, but that Post Masters were considered guilty before being assumed innocent.
Being a Japanese company they have been transparent not like the Posty Thugs, cant remember , duno and cant recall.
So refreshing to see someone being honest. Fujitsu, wrote a report of the bugs to the Post Office and . . . . . . . .!
My man's questioning is breathtaking. Accurate, fair, relentless.
Worked for POL between 2003 & 2009 at the Post Office Service Centre in Salford. Didn't know of this crap and scandal going on at the time but in hindsight not surprised in the slightest that POL could do this, although overall responsibility lies with the Government as they were and still are the owners of the company.
At the end of the day Fuijitsu got the tender as they were the CHEAPEST!!!!
Crap software from the very start
Here is the thing, apart from all the other aspects of this affair the role of Lord Neuberger in the Recusal seems to have escaped attention.
I have therefore pasted the following ‘The role of Lord Neuberger in the recusal fiasco (Justice Fraser) should be investigated’ on as many TH-cam articles as I could, about ten, but when I checked to see if there was any response I discovered they had all been taken down.
This Kafkaesque episode staggers one at every turn, even when Big brother has been outed he seems to be still working away!
I really want to know why Lord Neuberger interfered , if the recusal had succeeded the whole noble attempt at taking on the stinking system would have failed.
This Guy is everything a witness should be, a stark contrast is drawn between him and the Post Office Management team thus far. Let us hope Paula Vennels has the same come clean attitude in the coming weeks.
Finally someone from Fujitsu being totally honest.
Not like past and present post office management ( I can not recall) .
No prison time a fine of a few billion which can be replaced = carry on regardles system
As someone who has worked in IT for 40 years if the contractor informed the client of issues / bugs and the client (post office) did nothing or manipulated the reports the contractor has done all they could. They are now trying to salvage reputation and ongoing contracts by dropping the post office in it. Yes very bad software system. But post office management basically morally corrupt.
Totally agree
So I've read the uk ceo has quit, no jail no fines an full wages an full pension!!! Thats about right
For twenty years there's been a fault in the Horizon system which the post office new about ,but the PO big wigs still forged ahead prosecuting POsub post office counter staff ,causing damage and death to numerous counter staff disgraceful criminal behaviour of Post office directors and Fujitsu for not doing enough to stop all these Prosecutions which were floored to begin with.
Just a hunch that matey wont be with Fujitsu for much longer.....
first honest one i have heard
This isn't damning on fujitsu. It's exonerating.
Not reall, its still shitty behaviour however Fujitsu applying pressure to the PO to keep things quiet is not the same as ordering the PO to prosecute PM's.@@joisagirlsname
@@djseaneq I don't think fujitsu were applying pressure on the PO to keep things quiet at all. I think the PO messed up the requirements for the system because they didn't know what they want (happens all the time). The budget for the project then blows out extravagantly, and the cost of working out the bugs is even more expensive.Then the PO couldn't admit to having implemented a flawed system that was costing millions in fixes. So they decided to just pretend there's nothing wrong.
Absolute respect to this man.
He came into his post in 2019 so he wasn’t even present during all the issues. This is why he is open and confident
building in a fraudulant money back door is not a bug or a defect,its corporate criminality
Refreshing to have clear replies rather than I don't recall or it was before my time etc.
Paul Patterson comes over as very straight and doing his best to answer the questions. He also appears to have carefully read the evidence Fujitsu submitted before appearing in front of the enquiry. It must also be important to him and Fujitsu to demonstrate that the Post Office were aware of all the known bugs from early on, so that they cannot pretend that Fujitsu hid the information from them. Sharing information about bugs and agreeing the prioritisation of fixes is normal practice in an outsourcing contract.
At 7.40 on, Paul Patterson admits that there were bugs in the system from the very start and has therefore condemned both Fujitsu and the Post Office Boards to committing perjury in court and that every prosecution by the PO was false! As well as massive compensation due to each and every one of those prosecuted there will be prison on the "horizon" for these Board members!
Must seem a long and hard journey, only you know what it's like. Another positive for you though, must be no ascites and having to be drained of all that nasty stuff!
I think you're doing great. No-one knows how long they've got so we all just plan for forever. You should do the same. Best wishes from the UK.
The inquiry should be asking Fujitsu for copies of the letters, documents, emails containing referencing the 'known issues log' or the indvidual bugs, along with records of it's own meetings, emails, etc. where the known issues were discussed. The Post Office needs to be shown a list of 'these people knew' and they face crosss examination too, it's not enough for post office Management to delay, delay.
Throw all of them in jail end of story.
Fujitsu had a moral obligation at the minimum to object to the Post Office during their era of wrongful prosecutions. However this guy seems to be answering openly and truthfully, which no one else has yet. Fujitsu accept the system had bugs, it's the Post Office that forced the narrative there were none, prosecuted endlessly, and flouted disclosure legislation time after time to both defendants, and investigations into their own conduct.
I think that guy Gerald Barnes answered honestly where he could. A different kind of character but honest I thought
If no one goes to jail then you will know the system is corrupt
A very honest man - burying himself and Fujitsu (will he lose his job!!)
He is saving them.
It is morally right, but it also puts the focus on the PO dishonesty.
So where did the missing money go? The postmasters don't have it. So WHO has it? These geniuses should be able to tell us exactly where to look!
Nobody has said in what form the missing sums are made up.
IE. Cash, postal orders, stamps, bonds, parcels.
It went into an accounting trick called a suspense account. After 3 years it was then put into the profit and loss account. From there it went straight to the bottom line and was paid to PO staff as bonuses.
Since Horizon was so opaque and also hidden from the Sub Post Masters that it was never coming back from the suspense account.