Also to be noted that elder dragon classification is rly just a way to say "we rly don't know wtf is going on" in-lore. To be noted that 2 out of 3 elder dragons in 1st gen are quadruped.
I covered some of the Elders being tetrapods in the video, as mentioned they may have lost their third pair of limbs as a part of their evolutional progress.
@@xJaystfor the most part it makes sense, but I think Kirin is a distinct outlier, who serves as the true example of 'we don't know wtf is going on' rather than being related to the other elder dragons. Its morphology has no similarity at all with any other elder dragon (aside from some other tetrapods), and really frankly the only reason it seems to be counted as a elder dragon is the fact that it has such an insane control over a singular element, and that it's very elusive.
@@imbored3416 That’s very true, the equine body plan of a Kirin is as far as I know not seen in any other wyvern species. Looks more like a mammal if it weren’t for the scales.
@@xJayst I think there might also be non elders mixed into their classifications, but for the most part loosing their limbs as they evolve do make the trail a bit hard to follow. Lao Shan Lung is quadrupedal but we know its related to the Zorah Magdaros who has vestigial wings that it uses to gather and hold its volcanic shell together. Kulve Taroth, Morhens and Dalamadur families also might be either true Elders or ones that are classified by their strength and danger. Akantor and Ukanlos are an example of Elder Level monsters because of their size and power, so I hear theories that while they arent elders they might come from the same era in the past hence their anomalous power
Nergigante is described as an elder dragon killer , a sort of elder dragon ecosystem regulator that changed shapes over time from old gens , older designs with scales instead of spikes were revealed by the official MH channel during last stream for "hunters choice"
Dracophage bugs feed on the dragonfell berry. Its the only plant able to naturally produce the dragon element and is quite rare, making dracophage bugs quite rare and in extension making stygian zinogre quite rare.
You think maybe the remains of Elder dragons are where the plants imprinted the energy from as sort of defense mechanism and eventually evolved to be dependant on dracophage bugs? Cause the dragon element has shown itself to be very toxic and have unhealthy side effects to monsters not adapted or tolerant to it.
I think that the dragon element is a derivative of the bio energy introduced in gen 5, we see safi use pure bioenergy which many have hypothesized to be “pure” dragon element, due to it being weak to any element since if it were dragon element in its purest form any derivative of bioenergy would be enough to tip its internal energy off balance, and this ability to tap directly into bioenergy is what gives elders their command over the elements, which can be seen as derivatives of pure bioenergy, even Nergi’s strength can be seen as an abundance of bio energy cultivated from the proximity to the everstream. This hypothesis is also supported by kulve taroth, and elder dragon which lives its life along the everstream. It seems plausible due to the importance the MHW story put to bioenergy and the everstream, tying it into behavior of all elder dragons, even those in the old world with the elder crossing.
We know due to encyclopedias and official art books that the world pf monster hunter is quite old, as an “advanced ancient civilization” existed long before the guild’s inception. While the lore behind this civilization is quite spotty, we know due to areas in game like the Tower that this civilization existed, and they interacted with elder dragons too. In fact, locations like the Tower were made primarily with elder dragon materials, implying that elder dragons were much more numerous then they are now. There’s supposedly even an in-universe explanation, since there’s multiple references to a “great dragon war” between the civilization and the elder dragons, leading to the death of the great civilization, and the loss of many elder dragons, likely even the extinction of several ancient species of elder dragons that we’ve never seen.
I personally view elder dragons to be the extremophiles & dinosaurs of the world, being the most ancient class of monster and come from a completely different lineage of creatures separate from wyvern or insect, they are as separate from other creatures as vertebrates vs invertebrates, and they originate from a time the world was in climatic turmoil, thier ability to have extraordinary abilities may be due to them adapting to these great dying events and where the only animals able to survive these harsh conditions and now use there use thier almost supernatural abilitys to rule the world as its now known, it fits with my view of most elders being half animal half mythical and with a intelligence that matches and even surpasses man, I do think xeno'jiiva/safi'jiiva are aliens tho but for me that's special case, and i do think the black dragons are just straight up mythical apart from alatreon, I'm not sure where I put him on this scale
Similar theory elder dragons are from alternate realities biggest evidence is behemoth being classified being an elder dragon even though it’s non-native to the universe
The idea that elders are aliens becuase they have six limbs and that they landed on earth as single called organisms while Wyvern ancestors were single called organisms doesn’t make any sense and are contradictory. There’s nothing stopping terrestrial single called from having 6 limbs, there’s nothing there suggesting no common ancestor if the supposed divergence was so long ago. The idea that Nergigante is an alien because it’s “just too strong” feels like a “play other games” moment, because Bloodbath Diablos would have words for that, lol Additionally elders are sometimes speculated to be the ancestors of modern creatures (Dos and Freedom Unite) and Tigrex (a primitive Wyvern) is said to have limb structure similar to that of elder dragons (Freedom Unite in-game Hunter’s Magazine). You also forgot Ebony Odogaron, who produces dragon element as a result of it consuming large quantities of meat (and not just eating elder dragons, which Deviljho as a species is not confirmed to do by any stretch) as well as Rathalos and Tigrex, who both have dragon element in their bodies (and used to have dragon element attacks prior to third gen, having been removed because of the addition of blights in ‘Monster Hunter Tri’). Dragon element is also found in Vespoid and Hermitaur, as their weapons were some of the only dragon-element options in MH1, and have retained these traits ever since. NPCs would mention them in dialogue as useful for anti-dragon weapons for Lao Shan Lung and Fatalis. As other comments have noted, the Dracophage bugs with Stygian Zinogre eat dragonfell berries, but Stygian itself also has dragon element within its body and the bugs are not the only ones using it. Beyond that there are still other dragon-using non-elder dragon monsters like Akantor, Scorned Magnamalo, and others in spin offs like Doragyurosu and Anorupatisu in Frontier. There’s basically nothing suggesting that dragon-element (or more literally from Japanese, “dragon attribute”) is a virus or bacteria, and this doesn’t really make any sense, since even if it were that bacteria or virus would need to be using unknown forces to affect other elements… in which case those unknown forces would need a name. Like “dragon element”, lol. I’m not sure why this is such a widespread idea-it’s not like fire, water, ice, and lightning have anything to do with biology in terms of idea/concept, why would dragon element? They might be produced biologically, but they are not biological substances, they’re forces of nature, phases of physical matter. Dragon element shouldn’t be any different.
I'm not saying that Elders are for a fact aliens, I just wanted to make a video about the possibility. As for the elements they aren't "forces of nature" they are real tangible things. Fire is a chemical reaction, Water a molecule, lightning is an electrical discharge therefore it's simply a physical process. The way you mention the dragon element makes it sound like a magic as to where I presume the dragon element to be something as real as physics or chemistry only difference being that it is still unexplained. Anyway thank you for watching the video and sharing your feedback I'm always up for discourse and of course I'd never let the opportunity pass to learn something new!
Honestly, while i do think this is a good theory for what dragon element is, I think it's a bit too far fetched as far as the elder dragons go. Realistically, there would be no difference between elder dragons diverging very early in evolution or coming from space, with the former being much more likely. Like, sure, 6 vs 4 limbs does point to a split in evolution very far down the line, but it's still not that huge of a difference. Just think about it, humans and mushrooms both have a common, most likely multicellular ancestor, despite having quite a few differences. Elder dragons could be just an alternate evolution line to wyverns, like mammals, birds or insects are. And as far as explaining their powers, it could have something to do with the ancient civilisation that's hinted at in the lore.
My theory has been for awhile that the Dragon element is a form of radiation that may come from cosmic rays or maybe it was made/used by the ancient civilization and then started leaking into the world and maybe that's why the ancient civilization fell.
It's probably similar to what happens to a Deviljho, as we know that the Rotten Vale is a place where Elders go to die it would make sense that some Odogaron have adapted to scavenge Elder carrion thus granting them the Dragon Element. Their description also states that they are always looking for their next meal which is another piece of evidence for my theory about the Dragon Element increasing energy need of a monster. Ebony Odogaron shouldn't have problems finding food like a Deviljho does since it probably feeds mostly on long dead monsters inside of the Rotten Vale whenever it's not out in the world hunting for fresh meat.
@@xJaysthe does carry fresh meat almost every time you see him too meaning, that unlike deviljho he knows that he prob has a massive limit to using the dragon element before he need to consume food/meat
This is what I thought in bloodborne about cosmic celestial beings and thanks I'm not the only one who thinks elder dragon that came out from nowhere that usually adapt and evolves depends on a environment they're living and has a instinct to survive the ecological system in the new world.
I hope not, because its literally the most used "plot twist" in japanese media for some reason, I can name soooo many japanese anime, manga and videogames that drop the "it was aliens all along" plot twist. They do love aliens over there it seems.
I personally think that while not all elders are alien, for example Lao Shen Lung could just be effectively the monster hunter equivalent of a lizard landfaring whale, I think that the black dragons are specifically descendant from Safi Jiva as an ancestral species. Safi Jiva might be a doomed species depending if there aren’t vast quantities of bioenergy and as a result, they speciate in different ways without access to high amounts of it, fatalis becoming a fire specialist black dragon, alatreon and disufiroa are likely closely related and specialize in using various elements to overwhelm any rivals, so on and so forth. In reality the xeno and safi we fight are probably the only ones of their kind in a long time to show up on earth due to the comet/meteor that’s shown in the intro of the game.
i have theory, first mh planet has very dense atmosphere, low gravity and rich oxygen level. 2) elder dragon can be classified in 2 category i) obiviously alien ii) adapted to compete with elder example of 1st being fatalis, narwa&ibushi, kushala, teostra etc 2nd cedeus, laou, morran, zora etc diffrence being 1 st one are actually very wierd and diffrent compared to normal monsters while 2nd one are more or less similar to any normal monster but just slightly larger but still can be categorized in other monster category, again for ex dalamadur and kirin closely resembles snake wyvern and kelbi respectively, while aletreon and dire is just too wierd
0:57 Higher Oxygen levels makes bugs and other arthropods grow huge but not vertebrates(land animals) Bugs breath through defusion. This type of breathing limmits the size of the arthropod to the level of oxygen in the investment. Vertebrates(land animas) breath actively through their lungs and arent bound to the limitations insects have. They only have a size limit based on how heavy they can be before they can't support thiere on weight on land anymore.
That is correct, although to “power” those immensely large muscles an atmosphere richer in oxygen may be useful. And since we see huge insects all throughout Monster Hunter it is pretty much a given that the oxygen levels on that planet are increased compared to our real world Earth.
Wow I can't comprehend why it's easier for you to assume they are literal aliens than a part of the FANTASY world inhabited by many insane creatures Also it is clearly stated in games that dracophage bugs eat plants that grant them the dragon element, plants you can gather to create dragon ammo. What about Ebony Odogaron BTW? Akantor? Scorned Malo? The biggest hole in my opinion is the fact that elders aren't a set class or family of creatures. It's an umbrella term guild uses to classify all monsters that don't fit usual classification
This video is a thought experiment/ theory craft. I’m not actually saying that elder dragons are 100% aliens. It’s just a video for TH-cam it’s not that deep.
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
Also to be noted that elder dragon classification is rly just a way to say "we rly don't know wtf is going on" in-lore. To be noted that 2 out of 3 elder dragons in 1st gen are quadruped.
I covered some of the Elders being tetrapods in the video, as mentioned they may have lost their third pair of limbs as a part of their evolutional progress.
@@xJaystfor the most part it makes sense, but I think Kirin is a distinct outlier, who serves as the true example of 'we don't know wtf is going on' rather than being related to the other elder dragons. Its morphology has no similarity at all with any other elder dragon (aside from some other tetrapods), and really frankly the only reason it seems to be counted as a elder dragon is the fact that it has such an insane control over a singular element, and that it's very elusive.
@@imbored3416 That’s very true, the equine body plan of a Kirin is as far as I know not seen in any other wyvern species. Looks more like a mammal if it weren’t for the scales.
@@xJayst I think there might also be non elders mixed into their classifications, but for the most part loosing their limbs as they evolve do make the trail a bit hard to follow.
Lao Shan Lung is quadrupedal but we know its related to the Zorah Magdaros who has vestigial wings that it uses to gather and hold its volcanic shell together.
Kulve Taroth, Morhens and Dalamadur families also might be either true Elders or ones that are classified by their strength and danger.
Akantor and Ukanlos are an example of Elder Level monsters because of their size and power, so I hear theories that while they arent elders they might come from the same era in the past hence their anomalous power
Almost every Elder Dragon: *Uses powerful elemental abilities to overpower its enemies*
Nergigante: "The hunter gonna catch these hands"
Not just hands, the whole spiked a*s body diving in mach 5.
Nergigante is described as an elder dragon killer , a sort of elder dragon ecosystem regulator that changed shapes over time from old gens , older designs with scales instead of spikes were revealed by the official MH channel during last stream for "hunters choice"
Dracophage bugs feed on the dragonfell berry.
Its the only plant able to naturally produce the dragon element and is quite rare, making dracophage bugs quite rare and in extension making stygian zinogre quite rare.
That’s actually a detail I wasn’t aware of! Thanks for sharing it.
I was about to mention that
You think maybe the remains of Elder dragons are where the plants imprinted the energy from as sort of defense mechanism and eventually evolved to be dependant on dracophage bugs?
Cause the dragon element has shown itself to be very toxic and have unhealthy side effects to monsters not adapted or tolerant to it.
I think that the dragon element is a derivative of the bio energy introduced in gen 5, we see safi use pure bioenergy which many have hypothesized to be “pure” dragon element, due to it being weak to any element since if it were dragon element in its purest form any derivative of bioenergy would be enough to tip its internal energy off balance, and this ability to tap directly into bioenergy is what gives elders their command over the elements, which can be seen as derivatives of pure bioenergy, even Nergi’s strength can be seen as an abundance of bio energy cultivated from the proximity to the everstream. This hypothesis is also supported by kulve taroth, and elder dragon which lives its life along the everstream. It seems plausible due to the importance the MHW story put to bioenergy and the everstream, tying it into behavior of all elder dragons, even those in the old world with the elder crossing.
That's a very interesting insight! Bioenergy has to be linked with Elders in some way and I hope Monster Hunter Wilds expands on that concept.
We know due to encyclopedias and official art books that the world pf monster hunter is quite old, as an “advanced ancient civilization” existed long before the guild’s inception. While the lore behind this civilization is quite spotty, we know due to areas in game like the Tower that this civilization existed, and they interacted with elder dragons too. In fact, locations like the Tower were made primarily with elder dragon materials, implying that elder dragons were much more numerous then they are now. There’s supposedly even an in-universe explanation, since there’s multiple references to a “great dragon war” between the civilization and the elder dragons, leading to the death of the great civilization, and the loss of many elder dragons, likely even the extinction of several ancient species of elder dragons that we’ve never seen.
They're definitely gonna dive more into this in Wilds and I'm excited for it
🤞🏼 fingers crossed hoping!
I personally view elder dragons to be the extremophiles & dinosaurs of the world, being the most ancient class of monster and come from a completely different lineage of creatures separate from wyvern or insect, they are as separate from other creatures as vertebrates vs invertebrates, and they originate from a time the world was in climatic turmoil, thier ability to have extraordinary abilities may be due to them adapting to these great dying events and where the only animals able to survive these harsh conditions and now use there use thier almost supernatural abilitys to rule the world as its now known, it fits with my view of most elders being half animal half mythical and with a intelligence that matches and even surpasses man, I do think xeno'jiiva/safi'jiiva are aliens tho but for me that's special case, and i do think the black dragons are just straight up mythical apart from alatreon, I'm not sure where I put him on this scale
I was boutta comment that dinosaurs didn't have loud roars but since the elders have been around for so long I dismissed that thought
Similar theory elder dragons are from alternate realities biggest evidence is behemoth being classified being an elder dragon even though it’s non-native to the universe
Underated ,like REALY REALY UNDERATED keep it up
Will do!
The idea that elders are aliens becuase they have six limbs and that they landed on earth as single called organisms while Wyvern ancestors were single called organisms doesn’t make any sense and are contradictory. There’s nothing stopping terrestrial single called from having 6 limbs, there’s nothing there suggesting no common ancestor if the supposed divergence was so long ago. The idea that Nergigante is an alien because it’s “just too strong” feels like a “play other games” moment, because Bloodbath Diablos would have words for that, lol
Additionally elders are sometimes speculated to be the ancestors of modern creatures (Dos and Freedom Unite) and Tigrex (a primitive Wyvern) is said to have limb structure similar to that of elder dragons (Freedom Unite in-game Hunter’s Magazine).
You also forgot Ebony Odogaron, who produces dragon element as a result of it consuming large quantities of meat (and not just eating elder dragons, which Deviljho as a species is not confirmed to do by any stretch) as well as Rathalos and Tigrex, who both have dragon element in their bodies (and used to have dragon element attacks prior to third gen, having been removed because of the addition of blights in ‘Monster Hunter Tri’). Dragon element is also found in Vespoid and Hermitaur, as their weapons were some of the only dragon-element options in MH1, and have retained these traits ever since. NPCs would mention them in dialogue as useful for anti-dragon weapons for Lao Shan Lung and Fatalis.
As other comments have noted, the Dracophage bugs with Stygian Zinogre eat dragonfell berries, but Stygian itself also has dragon element within its body and the bugs are not the only ones using it.
Beyond that there are still other dragon-using non-elder dragon monsters like Akantor, Scorned Magnamalo, and others in spin offs like Doragyurosu and Anorupatisu in Frontier.
There’s basically nothing suggesting that dragon-element (or more literally from Japanese, “dragon attribute”) is a virus or bacteria, and this doesn’t really make any sense, since even if it were that bacteria or virus would need to be using unknown forces to affect other elements… in which case those unknown forces would need a name. Like “dragon element”, lol. I’m not sure why this is such a widespread idea-it’s not like fire, water, ice, and lightning have anything to do with biology in terms of idea/concept, why would dragon element? They might be produced biologically, but they are not biological substances, they’re forces of nature, phases of physical matter. Dragon element shouldn’t be any different.
I'm not saying that Elders are for a fact aliens, I just wanted to make a video about the possibility. As for the elements they aren't "forces of nature" they are real tangible things. Fire is a chemical reaction, Water a molecule, lightning is an electrical discharge therefore it's simply a physical process. The way you mention the dragon element makes it sound like a magic as to where I presume the dragon element to be something as real as physics or chemistry only difference being that it is still unexplained.
Anyway thank you for watching the video and sharing your feedback I'm always up for discourse and of course I'd never let the opportunity pass to learn something new!
Honestly, while i do think this is a good theory for what dragon element is, I think it's a bit too far fetched as far as the elder dragons go. Realistically, there would be no difference between elder dragons diverging very early in evolution or coming from space, with the former being much more likely. Like, sure, 6 vs 4 limbs does point to a split in evolution very far down the line, but it's still not that huge of a difference. Just think about it, humans and mushrooms both have a common, most likely multicellular ancestor, despite having quite a few differences.
Elder dragons could be just an alternate evolution line to wyverns, like mammals, birds or insects are. And as far as explaining their powers, it could have something to do with the ancient civilisation that's hinted at in the lore.
My theory has been for awhile that the Dragon element is a form of radiation that may come from cosmic rays or maybe it was made/used by the ancient civilization and then started leaking into the world and maybe that's why the ancient civilization fell.
this video is SO PERFECT
Thank you!
Cool theory! What are your thoughts about ebony odogaron?
It's probably similar to what happens to a Deviljho, as we know that the Rotten Vale is a place where Elders go to die it would make sense that some Odogaron have adapted to scavenge Elder carrion thus granting them the Dragon Element. Their description also states that they are always looking for their next meal which is another piece of evidence for my theory about the Dragon Element increasing energy need of a monster. Ebony Odogaron shouldn't have problems finding food like a Deviljho does since it probably feeds mostly on long dead monsters inside of the Rotten Vale whenever it's not out in the world hunting for fresh meat.
@@xJaysthe does carry fresh meat almost every time you see him too meaning, that unlike deviljho he knows that he prob has a massive limit to using the dragon element before he need to consume food/meat
My theory is that Elder dragons are a whole new clade of chordates that evolved 6 limbs instead of 4
This is what I thought in bloodborne about cosmic celestial beings and thanks I'm not the only one who thinks elder dragon that came out from nowhere that usually adapt and evolves depends on a environment they're living and has a instinct to survive the ecological system in the new world.
I hope not, because its literally the most used "plot twist" in japanese media for some reason, I can name soooo many japanese anime, manga and videogames that drop the "it was aliens all along" plot twist. They do love aliens over there it seems.
Wdym Alien ??????
Nergigante basically gigantic angry Palico & Velkhana basically a Ice Dog who been Hibernation too long.
i have a question, what are the dracophage berries then?
I think the the Dragonfell Berries are a rare case of a native lifeform adapting to the dragon element.
@@xJayst thank you for the explanation!!!
I personally think that while not all elders are alien, for example Lao Shen Lung could just be effectively the monster hunter equivalent of a lizard landfaring whale, I think that the black dragons are specifically descendant from Safi Jiva as an ancestral species. Safi Jiva might be a doomed species depending if there aren’t vast quantities of bioenergy and as a result, they speciate in different ways without access to high amounts of it, fatalis becoming a fire specialist black dragon, alatreon and disufiroa are likely closely related and specialize in using various elements to overwhelm any rivals, so on and so forth. In reality the xeno and safi we fight are probably the only ones of their kind in a long time to show up on earth due to the comet/meteor that’s shown in the intro of the game.
i have theory, first mh planet has very dense atmosphere, low gravity and rich oxygen level.
2) elder dragon can be classified in 2 category i) obiviously alien ii) adapted to compete with elder
example of 1st being fatalis, narwa&ibushi, kushala, teostra etc
2nd cedeus, laou, morran, zora etc
diffrence being 1 st one are actually very wierd and diffrent compared to normal monsters
while 2nd one are more or less similar to any normal monster but just slightly larger but still can be categorized in other monster category, again for ex dalamadur and kirin closely resembles snake wyvern and kelbi respectively, while aletreon and dire is just too wierd
King ghidora is an elder dragon also excluding tempered monsters this might be why scoutflys turn blue around elder dragons
Incredible video
0:57 Higher Oxygen levels makes bugs and other arthropods grow huge but not vertebrates(land animals)
Bugs breath through defusion. This type of breathing limmits the size of the arthropod to the level of oxygen in the investment.
Vertebrates(land animas) breath actively through their lungs and arent bound to the limitations insects have. They only have a size limit based on how heavy they can be before they can't support thiere on weight on land anymore.
That is correct, although to “power” those immensely large muscles an atmosphere richer in oxygen may be useful. And since we see huge insects all throughout Monster Hunter it is pretty much a given that the oxygen levels on that planet are increased compared to our real world Earth.
But not all elders use the dragon element.
Wow I can't comprehend why it's easier for you to assume they are literal aliens than a part of the FANTASY world inhabited by many insane creatures
Also it is clearly stated in games that dracophage bugs eat plants that grant them the dragon element, plants you can gather to create dragon ammo. What about Ebony Odogaron BTW? Akantor? Scorned Malo?
The biggest hole in my opinion is the fact that elders aren't a set class or family of creatures. It's an umbrella term guild uses to classify all monsters that don't fit usual classification
This video is a thought experiment/ theory craft. I’m not actually saying that elder dragons are 100% aliens. It’s just a video for TH-cam it’s not that deep.