Also some people forget that In the SAME EPISODE she contemplates CHEATING ON MARK WHILE SHE ALSO KNOWS HES INVINCIBLE sure at the time we don’t know that she knows but then it’s revealed that she Does know and it recontexualizes that ENTIRE cheating scenario
I just hate the lack of accountability on Amber's part and unfortunately people do this towards women in real life where they're unfortunately more willing to give the woman the benefit of the doubt and put all the blame on the man and people just expect the man to take it and treat her with respect regardless as evident with how every character blames it all on mark and acts like amber did nothing wrong when in reality she was just as bad if not worse and she herself doesn't even apologize either because that's the unfair reality we live in where everything with a woman is always the man's fault, I despise the people who always wanna pull the gender card or the race card anytime you criticize a woman, those people have no argument and I cant help but like the comic version of amber more for actually communicating with mark the entire time and being reasonable
modern hollywood writing a woman cannot be shown being dominated or wrong in front of a man after all women are far to strong and indipendant for that.
@@SpiderSora im surprised kaiserneko isnt in this reply section yelling at you about how “youre absolutely wrong,,, wah wah wah, Shes infallible wah wah wah, inarguably good person who cares if she cheats she works in a soup kitchen 😭😭😭😡🤬” give it a couple days lmao i may have spoke too soon
@@KingBullDogg I wish he fucking would because that's these npc's problem, they get mad at you for telling the truth, this is exactly why the saying women have no accountability exists, it's not our fault that these people and some women have created a world where its taboo and against the rules to criticize a woman
@@KingBullDogg I wish he f*cking would because that's these npc's problem, they get mad at you for telling the truth, this is exactly why the saying "women have no accountability" exists, it's not our fault that these people and some women have created a world where its taboo and against the rules to criticize a woman
11:25 If I was to look at his statement in good faith. I think team 4 star’s Kaiser is implying, that in this specific scenario, Mark should have rejected all the advances of Amber (or any other girl) until he can say for a certain that he’s known them long enough to say he wants to pursue a long term romantic relationship and that he feels safe telling them his secret identity. If this is the case, I can agree that he is technically correct. However, I would say this process would probably never work. By the time Mark is ready to be with a girl, the girl in question would have most likely moved on already. If this is the only correct path that Kaiser is pushing, then Marks only real option is to either date Hero’s exclusively, or just gamble his fate by telling his parter too early and hope for the best.
My point is that heroes dating civilians is highly unbalanced, and makes for complicated, often toxic relationships. It also puts them in danger, without them even being aware. Like, remember, Gwen Stacy *didn't even know* Spider-Man's identity when she was killed because Green Goblin targeted her. Unfortunately, I think that dating heroes is the right move. In a word where there are many heroes and many villains, who know the score, and have incentive to keep their secret identity. I'm not saying impossible for a hero to date a civilian and for it to go well, but a lot of things have to align for it to work. Like Lois and Clark.
@@KaiserNeko First, Hey Kaiser. Hope you’re doing well and that you don’t get too much flak for your opinion. but yes, I agree with you.except for the toxic relationship part. Everyone has baggage that varies from harmful to benign. When you date someone, your putting yourself in the position where the others problems can hurt you. The only time I can say one should tell their partner about their baggage before they’re ready, is if the problem is or is about to affect them negatively. Or if they want to ask the person to marry them. If you agree with me, Mark doesn’t meet that qualification. He wasn’t ready, and There was no reason to believe that his superhero life would put Amber in danger. Mark is actually responsible with his secret identity (none Of that MCU crap were they always remove their mask) and has too many safety nets in his life that would prevent Amber from ever being in trouble outside of stumbling into a random supervillain. The only acceptation to the rule is when the Viltrumites just come to earth and knew immediately who Mark is. That situation is an unknown unknown and shouldn’t be used to make responsible decisions. Ps I don’t think a lot has to align for a superhero to successfully date a civilian. But I do think a lot has to align for it to fail. As long as the hero makes responsible decisions, they should be fine.
@@KaiserNeko I'm disappointed in this displayed performance, man. I gotta let you know I don't FW Amber like that, gang... Even after everything. Amber really should've confronted Mark as soon as she could when she found out rather than being childish about it by waiting just to shit on Mark for wanting to help keep the world safe. Mark being a bad boyfriend is one thing, but to say or imply Amber should be free of any and/or all guilt for her own actions is insane.
@@KaiserNeko , Superman didn't get married and had a family with Lois Lane until Lex Luthor cloned Superman and made Superboy, and Batman married and had a family with Catwoman resulting directly their daughter being Huntress, and Thomas Wayne taking up the new Bat mantle in Earth 2, so I agree with you fully that supers should only marry 💑 💑 supers.
The writers tried to be clever with a twist of an old troupe and it backfired. Ive neen rewatching Batman Beyond and seeing Dana and Terry's rocky relationship reminded me of Mark and Amber's. This is really one of those situations where they should've just kept it simple
Except it's not on Amber's side if it really was the original context wouldnt be framed from Mark's perspective It would have paned to Amber for a second so that it was Absolutely Clear that Mark was given every opportunity to leave if he had prior commitments and that his reluctance to even make an excuse is emotionally damaging The fact that for years people online have been raging over this one character( especially the bigots) shows that they were more focused on Mark's angle Anyone who actually paid attention would have seen how Mark was being a bad boyfriend
Being on Mark's side? That, i think, is the only side to be on. if someone kept ditching me, I would prefer they be an acting superhero than ditching me to drugs, cheating on me, or any number of things. do I understand that would make people frustrated? absolutely. if you knew for weeks, then what the hell.
I always hate the argument of "You can't hate this character because there's this other character who has done so much worse." There's a reason why Umbridge is more hated than Voldemort. There's a reason why Skyler White is hated more than Walter White. There's a reason why Amber is hated more than Omni-Man. Egotistical, abusive teachers, passive aggressive cheating spouses, and disingenuous snarky partners are far more common than over-the-top genocidal wizards, murderous drug-lords, and intergalactic fascist aliens. Of course people are going to find the more relatable characters more obnoxious - their flaws are less "fun" / fantastical and instead things we're already far too familiar with. Add in plots that occasionally seem to handwave / defend these behaviors and you get an even bigger annoyed audience. (Not trying to claim that Skyler White was unjustified though, lol - just understandably annoying as a character to watch sometimes.)
Shit, at least with Umbridge, the narrative was against her. (I don't know too much about BB) But with Amber, what makes it worse is how nobody ever challenges her moronic thought process. The narrative bends over backward for her, with William and Eve shitting on Mark and thinking Amber did nothing wrong.
All of these villains have qualities people admire. They are competent, they are intelligent, they are consistent, they have will power and dedication to a cause. They may be misguided and evil, but they are admirable non the less. But characters like Amber are just evil. They have no likable qualities, they have nothing worth aspiring to. They are just pure evil. And they are pure evil that go unpunished and get squeeze out of punishment. That is wht people hate them so much more.
If they have that argument then the reverse is also true; "Why are we expecting so much of a teenage boy" It's the socratic method. You apply the logic both ways, and it can help resolve a LOT of issues.
@@marlom7882 Logically she's contradicting, but he's not. He's doing his best but just can't seem to get it right. You can't fault him for that. Amber has a whole nonsensical contradictive passive aggressive mess and people say mark is somehow at fault? Nah, bruh. It don't pass the sniff test.
Green goblin is a great example of a villain knowing a secret identity and using a loved one for torturing the hero gwen stacy the fake aunt may death where he got a actress and made her against her will pretend to me aunt may even surgically altered and actually killed her making peter think aunt may died and other awful things hes done over the years to peter
Fun fact! I talked *at length* about how Green Goblin targeted Gwen Stacy when he found out Spider-Man was Pete *in the video,* and actually made a point of why superheroes dating civilians is actually morally dubious.
Peter in general is the "this is why secret identities are important" guy. He reveals himself in the Civil War arc that he's Spiderman because Tony told him to, and regardless of the fact that he switch to Cap's side, that led to King Pin sending a hitman after him when he got home, getting Aunt May shot and put in critical condition (or MJ outright killed in an alternate continuity) because of it.
@@espurrseyes42 The fucked up thing is, Gwen died even though she DIDN'T know. Because when Green Goblin found out, he targeted her to get to him. So it doesn't even matter if they know or not, villains will still target the people close to them if they find out their identities.
@@KaiserNeko Thats cool and all, but literally no one was arguing against that. Especially in the context of a random unrelated party finding out the hero's identity, the primary argument is against the self-contradicting nature of amber's character, which isn't addressed by this
@@jackofastora8962 I actually brought it up to make a longer, greater point about superheros dating civilians, and why it's not as cut and dry as people think. A *lot* of people get mad when you point this stuff out.
The idea that a SuperHero would tell a girl he has BARELY started dating, about his identity is so ridiculous I can't even describe it properly. That's something you tell her when you're about to get married. Or after YEARS of dating. It's such a consequential secret that if they love you, they would absolutely understand why you didn't tell them. Come on. They're fucking highschoolers. Honestly Mark shouldn't be telling EVEN a long term girlfriend at that age. It's a secret that once out, can never be taken back, the risk is simply too massive.
I would argue that's what Teenager Superhero would do. Teenager being the key word here. Teenagers aren't really well known for Their long term insights. So of course They would blab Their secret identity to Their friends or loved ones.
Because they have to make her "smarter" which means they also have to make her a bitch because they want to have their stupid drama cake of her being upset he's not around, despite the fact that she KNOWS why he can't be.
@espurrseyes42 idc about the raceswap, as long as they don't f up a character... but at least if they didn't raceswap, it could've been called white women shit
@cryotherapy7557 Raceswaps in animation are _never_ done for good reason. They are aways a red flag of woke activism in the writers' room and should be treated as such.
Amber being black is a race swap I can live with, its the forced "I'm a smart black girl moment" (Thats how it felt to me) that kinda ruins her character. I dont remember who said it but another youtubet put it plainy, "It doesnt make her smart, it makes her actually seem kinda dumb, especially when she gets made at Mark dispite knowing."
@@RcdevilDX only exception I can think of is Nick fury and that's cause Sam Jackson is inherently more interesting than white fury. But even then he's based off of ultimate universe Nick fury Jr. who is the son of original white nick fury I think he was adopted so technically a different character.
@@wingsoffreedom3589 yea he's definetly a main one. At least up until recently in secret wars. His race was never apart of his character until that show and thats what I liked about him. He was just Nick Fury, no race attached.
I suppose I will throw my hat in the ring for a sec. I think most people sympathized with Amber until that crappy reveal happened. Before then, from our perspective, we knew that Mark was just being a superhero, but Amber (at least, based on what it seemed) was unaware of that. From her perspective, it seemed like her boyfriend was just a crappy guy who kept bailing on her to do whatever he wanted without spending proper time with her and without explaining to her what he's really doing. Hell, Eve herself advised against Mark dating anyone other than superheroes and Mark is a new hero. He's insanely strong due to his blood from his father, but other than that...he's not very good at this in S1. Combine that with trying to balance his personal life (including a romantic relationship) with his superhero duties, and you can tell that he's just not doing well managing it. Mark wasn't a very good boyfriend, but he was trying. He just rushed into it, and I still think that revealing his identity just to try and save his relationship was a dumb move, but it was a dumb move that reflected his character. Honestly, I feel like people would've been fine with Amber if she never found out until that scene, as it would force her to reevaluate the relationship. If she decided to just break up with Mark right then and there without the dumb reveal that she knew for weeks, that would've been fine. Hell, that's what they ended up doing in S2 anyways. And Amber was much better in S2 (even if she felt a bit too restrained due to...all of this baggage). As for superhero identities and how much a hero like Spider-Man could reveal...it depends. I think as long as they do a decent job at balancing their relationships (romantic and platonic) along with their personal responsibilities and hero work, then I don't really see it being a problem hiding that superhero life until they've known one another till they've known each other for a while. Again, Mark handled the relationship pretty badly, but Amber's credibility gets wasted in a single scene when you could easily sympathize with her before that point. People only really began to hate her when that reveal happened.
@@DetectiveCy that is the best explaination against Amber. If the writers made Amber not know until Mark reveals it, it wouldve made so much sense. I guess they were afraid to make Amber look dumb which they could've just made her say that she had a hunch or something. They just made her unreasonable.
I like KaiserNeko. He along with everyone at TFS have made me laugh a ton and I respect him for what he's managed to accomplish. However, I've seen him make plenty of takes on Twitter that absolutely frustrate me. I don't understand how he can defend Amber, and I also can't understand how he found The Last Jedi at all enjoyable when it did many things wrong; which would only get worse in the very next movie.
The only way Kaiser Neko’s argument makes sense is if he thinks Mark should’ve never dated her from the start, since he wouldn’t be able to be honest with her. So either he only dates someone that already knows his secret before he starts dating them in the first place, or he refrains from dating entirely. And neither of those is a very reasonable argument.
In our original video, that IS the argument I make. Which is why this video is frustrating. And it *is* a reasonable argument. *Why* does him being a superhero mean that the person he dates has to suffer a shitty relationship? Why does it give him carte blanche to be a crappy boyfriend? Everyone keeps saying, "Well that's not fair to Mark!" Mark's feelings aren't more important than his partner's!! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE
@@KaiserNeko Dude, chill out. From Amber's perspective, yes he'd be a crappy boyfriend, but ONLY if she didn't know he had powers. Which he does, and she knows he does. So it just comes off as unnecessarily mean that she treats him like that when she's always going on about helping people. And sure, she might be helping the homeless, but he's directly saving the people she wants to help. What people are mad about is that she's being unreasonable and not understanding at all. This compared to comic Amber, who was admittedly not very smart, but at least her heart was in the right place. Also, kinda funny how you're responding to every single comment that mentions you lol
@Itariatan No, he *was* a crappy boyfriend. The reason doesn't matter, because he had SEVERAL opportunities to stop being a crappy boyfriend, but never took them. Remember, she told him what the deal was up front. She was so blunt about it, it almost felt hostile. And when he completely dropped the ball, she *still* was patient with him... for MONTHS. And when she started getting straight up sick of his shit, she tried to break up with him, but he begged her to stay. And she did, because again, she was *trying* to give him a chance to stop being crappy. Y'all are acting like he had no choice but to keep dating her, or keep prioritizing his work over her. And while the latter is arguably true, from a moral standpoint, the former is *not.* He should've broke it off with her instead of promising he'd get better over and over, only to keep disappointing her. And while she knew for a couple weeks? He didn't finally tell her until she broke up with him as a last minute hail marry to get her back, which to be honest? Is absolute BS. She was not perfect, her actions at the college sucked, but they were out of justified anger. tl;dr He was not a good boyfriend, was given *multiple* chances to either shape up or ship out, and instead he just kept trying to make it work, TO BOTH THEIR DETRIMENT. And trust me, I don't wanna be in this comment section either. But someone decided to make a video misrepresenting my point and actively insulting me, and now I feel the need to address the BS.
@@KaiserNekohow is he going to know when to tell someone thou, I mean the only way this can really work is if the girl he liked happened to already know and depending on his social circle size, that may not be a option at all. Keep in mind people often date people to see if they are a fitting partners and people in general seek companionship. It’s valid way to view it, but it’s pretty unrealistic for people especially those young as mark is. Overall though I my biggest issue is the show not calling out amber at all for being just as shitty and keeping she knew already while emotionally gaslighting him, if she had snapped after the soup incident and said she knew people would be a lot less mad in my opinion. Or had one of marks friends side with in rant similar to that one scene in Kaguya Sama would have made it redeemable in my eyes. Also the scene where the jerk jock said amber blackmailed them with embarrassing photos to give mark there number didn’t sit right with me in hindsight because depending on what that is exactly, that’s a flat out crime. At least she was better in season 2.
Amber being angry at Mark when he disappears to save people or the world wasn’t the problem. Her rejecting him when he decided to reveal his secret identity out of desperation to continue the relationship wasn’t the problem and was somewhat understandable. It was the fact that by making her smart enough to deduce that Mark was Invincible completely undermined her reason to be angry in the first place. I’m not saying that Mark was the perfect boyfriend, he was seventeen and Amber was his first girlfriend, but Amber wasn’t a perfect girlfriend either. Both sides made mistakes and didn’t handle the issues in the relationship in a healthy and mature manner, but as stated above they were teenagers so that is a moot point. I think that it would have been better if when Mark revealed he was Invincible Amber could have just said something like “Oh my god it all makes sense” and just refused to get back together.
The fact that she made it seem like she felt abandoned to die by her bf is waht gets me. Like, BIH, you KNOW he saved you, and still made him look like trash in front of everyone on-scene AND the audience. And you have the gal to play smartsy pants with the reveal? "Oh the issue are the lies" is SUCH a let down from "I thought my bf let me to die"
@@denkerbosu3551 the fact she sees a hero from her city appear to save them, AND her boyfriend she knows is a hero just disappeared…THEN YELLS AT HIM FOR DISAPPEARING LIKE HE ABANDONED HER?!? Either she’s genuinely stupid or she’s an emotionally manipulative piece of shit
@@ArynWellspringthat's a bit complicated, and the complication is the reason Amber lost the case. Amber & Johnny have differing trauma responses as a result of prexisting abuse patterns. Johnny withdraws, and Amber gets confrontational. Johnny withdrawing was causing her to get anxious, so she would pursue harder & taunt him, make threats as she repeatedly corners him, and even get physical until he either lashed out, or someone nearby forced her to leave. It started requiring bigger and bigger shows & goading from Amber, because the lack of confrontation to meet her sets off an anxiety response in her. Anyone actually observing it from start to finish struggles to fit that in their normal idea of abuse, unless they *also* see his lashing out as abuse. That's why she had to craft narratives of him inflicting worse & worse abuse to her, until it became unbelievable, to salvage peoples' perception of her. The bottle penetration story, for example, was supposed to explain & overshadow the fact that she sliced off the tip of his finger, except that he had evidence consistent with his injury, and she didn't, because it would practically kill her. At the end of the day, she was manufacturing stories & grand displays of her being a victim of abuse to the public, which was materially untrue when she was the instigator, with a history of being abusive to others, while being both unable to find anyone Johnny had abused, instead having people she cited speak *well* of him in the case.
There's also the elephant in the room that tensions are high when a show's recent. I've seen people *really* hating Adventures with Superman!Lois because she got mad at Clark for hiding his secret identity despite having explicitly told him she was gonna expose Superman's secrets, therefore confirming his insecurities. Then they calmed down once it became clear that Lois wasn't really being written as if she was right the whole time.
I liked Amber in season one, I understood why Mark didn’t tell her but I also thought he should have just taken the bandaid off and either broken up with her or told her. When they broke up I didn’t Hate her because we thought she thought Mark abandoned her and William. When it was revealed she knew his Secret identity and had known for weeks that’s when my opinion on her soured. Then the narrative, Willam and Eve all treated Mark like he was at fault and that was annoying. And then Amber inserted herself back into Marks life by comparing Mark not telling his secret identity to a girly he’s been in a relationship with for months to his Dad lying to him his whole life and then beating the absolute Hell out of him, and the narrative still treats it like that’s a good thing, like those to things are comparable. That’s when I really started to dislike her. Now second season comes around and she’s better, more open, more understanding, more sweet moments between the two but at the same time I still remembered how bad the fumbled her character in season one. I didn’t dislike her now but it still altered how I look at a character. Plus I was just waiting for them to break up to start the Mark and Eve relationship.
I think i get where they were coming from maybe: that the show was trying to make a realistic commentary on superhero relationships and they saw it as people dismissing that. The problem being that nobody really was, and i can't think of a superhero relationship that doesn't go into trust or secrecy issues. The big three "toxic superhero gf relationships" they mentioned being Lois Lane, Amber and Mary Jane all feature it prominently as each character's arc. Wonder why most people like Lois and MJ, but not this version of Amber? It's because writing her as figuring it out before the reveal recontextualizes all the actions she took, and the writers in their attempt to make her smart enough to piece it together unintentionally made her seem callous or malicious. I think what they failed to say plainly, at least in the clips you provided, is that the secrecy of superheroes is toxic, so heroes shouldn't pursue such relationships for the greater good. The problem with that arguement is that it is very depressing for one: do a good job at heroing in order to go home to an empty civilian life with no loved ones or close friends. The second problem being that most do this already, so the commentary is largely superfluous: we aren't dismissing it because it's not valid or some form of right, we are dismissing it because it's ingrained in the mantle of superhero to the point of being white noise. Invincible is not a gritty scathing commentary to tear apart the genre like The Boys, it is a gritty retelling of the tropes that are good in comics, and the show's adaptation stumbled in this one moment.
I wouldnt say mj is liked equally as Lois. Granted thats due to how the writers have been making the comics for the past few years but thats really my only disagreement with your great take
In this video the 09:00 - 10:15 mark is what really made majority of people dislike Amber. No one is defending Mark of what his treatment of Amber but her knowing FOR weeks and what she said to Mark (despite knowing hes Invincible) at the college was meant to PUBLICLY SHAME Mark by saying hes a coward and the show is treating like its only Mark was wrong. KaiserNeko lost that part.
Her shaming Mark was bullshit. We could have talked more about that, but I was more focused on the BULLSHIT arguments people were making. And they WERE being made, regardless of what KS says here. Though I will say her knowing and not saying anything wasn't the problem. It was the explosion at the college that was the biggest, actual issue. And we can all recognize that. But at least there's a way to explain why it happened, i.e. her frustration with Mark LYING FOR HALF A YEAR about his ability to commit.
@@krishnanandpremanand3581I'll say, the way she responded to Mark at the campus was a really weird decision by the writers. Because there are ways to explain it, but they literally all have to be inferred because the show doesn't explain it. But her keeping it close to the vest that she realized he was a superhero (which it is implied that she had "figured it out", not that she'd seen actual evidence) was her giving him room to do the right thing. (In this case, either break up with her or change the problematic behavior.) Which, to me, isn't morally wrong. She COULD have also told him, but that takes away HIS chance to fix the issue.
@@KaiserNeko that argument I could agree with you that yes there are people making arguments against Amber that are BS. But in the show perspective Mark is clearly shown to be an immature teenager given a responsibility of a superhero, the in universe acknowledges that as a flaw of Mark. But Amber's accountability on her part was not being acknowledged in Season 1, she was being excused in-universe. That college scene drastically changed her personality to the audience's eyes because it's completely out of left field. She was completely cool in my opinion before that.
@KaiserNeko I disagree with you that she shouldn't have told Mark the moment she found out. Her entire argument to mark hinges on honesty and communication, and thus all information that could compromise the situation should be discussed immediately. Her waiting for mark to fix his own mistakes is still an atrocious choice, because if she just said "hey, answer me honestly about this question. Are you Invincible?" The moment she found out, they could have actually had a long through discussion about expectations, boundaries and reasonings behind their actions. If that occured, her character would be great. However, she chose to withhold the information, knowing the other person had an absurd choice to make. She should have known that what she was doing would cause a greater amount of harm in the end and yet chose to do so anyway.
People in relationships go in to them with secrets. The trust they build brings them out. Amber figured out one of his most important secrets, gaslit him about it, and then shamed him for his heroics. Kaiserneko is objectively wrong.
So I don't think kaizer necko has made a set of contradictory rules. If we take the two rules as follows: It is good and right for a super hero to preserve their secret identity It is important to be open and honest with your commitments in a relationship What this means is that it is impossible for amber and invincible to date at all. But invincible and atom eve know about each other's commitments. Kaizernecko's argument disallows Clark Kent and Louise lane to have a relationship and it disallows Clark Kent and Diana Prince from having one. But superman and wonder woman would be ok because they both understand their commitments and the level of danger their partnership causes each of them. Do I think it's ok that kaizernecko thinks only ubermench superheroes can be in relationships with each other while leaving the common man out ? I don't think it's great personally but to each their own
My take is that, you shouldn't enter a relationship if you're going to put the other person through stress/duress they didn't agree to up front. That's my primary issue. If you can somehow navigate around that? Fine. Awesome. Otherwise? Avoid dating.
I like Johnny and Kaiser Neko. They have made some really great stuff. They do have a history of having some bad takes here and there, sometimes to the point of rewriting history.
Hell no. Any validity she had about Mark abandoning her goes RIGHT out the window when she says she knew he was a superhero for some time. Meaning she knew AT LEAST during the cyborg attack why her ran off and that he didn't abandon her, but did the opposite and saved her butt. She knew what he's been going through on a regular basis and why he's always getting injured and isn't around in his normal life, yet chastises him as if she doesn't. Certified scumbag behavior. Also I've heard this point before: Let's say Mark wasn't a superhero. So that means she's getting mad at him, a normal person, for running for his life when a cyborg starts reeking havoc so he doesn't, ya know, DIE. She's expecting him to act like he's some kind of hero and stay there to help out at the risk of getting reduced to a smear on the floor. You can't blame him for being scared there, and you can certainly blame her for getting mad at his reasonable reaction to the situation.
Don't forget that in that episode she was still mad about him not showing to her dumb ass soup kitchen when the story was he got hit by a bus. The hell was he supposed to do about that?
@@shadowagent7361 She was frustrated because, if you look at the timeline, she knew he was a superhero by this point. And so when she saw him, she knew he was lying about the bus, and that he'd prioritized his job over her. *Which wouldn't have been a problem* if Mark weren't constantly saying that he'd be there for her, and failing. Mind you? Even though she knows he's lying to her-- AGAIN-- she agrees to let it go and move on. And also-- AGAIN-- not lying about being a superhero, but lying about being able to be there for her.
Exactly. Anyone with basic superhero knowledge would understand he's either not telling her the truth to keep her safe OR hasn't gotten to that level of trust YET. This is especially stupid when you remember that this once happened with miles Morales in the comics only for it to turn out the girls father was Hydra and he was captured and tortured as a result.
@@marqusmedina5983 You know what's funny? In the video, I constantly reaffirm that the problem was never "He lied about his secret identity", but instead, "He lied about his ability to be a good partner". And that's true. Amber doesn't complain about him lying about his identity. She complains about him lying to her for over half a year about being able to be there for her, instead of just being honest that he couldn't, and/or breaking up with her.
@@KaiserNeko That makes more sense. Still doesn't really work since this type of situation does happen in real life with responders but I can see what you meant
Damn I missed KaiserNeko in Live Chat "Lying about your availability" Sure, so he's just supposed to reveal his secret identity to someone who he's only been dating for less than half a year. You love it when you see justifying gaslighting your partner instead of talking with them like a sane adult.
That's not my point and you'd never know that because this video completely misrepresented my point. The problem was never, EVER that he kept his secret identity. Mark was never going to be able to make time for Amber, because he would always have to prioritize being a hero. He told her that he'd be there for here, but he couldn't. And that was why Amber was angry: Because Mark was lying about being able to commit. Not about *why* he couldn't commit. And even when she tried to break up with him over it, he doubled down and said he'd get better, instead of accepting that he *could not* eat his cake but keep it too. I say this very explicitly in the video. I go into painstaking detail and obnoxious lengths to make that point clear. And yet people still either didn't listen or willfully misinterpreted me. "You love to see people justifying galighting." The only thing I ever said was that she just justified in exploding at him for lying *but was wrong* in how she did it. She shouldn't have pulled that shit on him at the college and it's the writers messing up. And if the only problem people had with her was that this conversation wouldn't even be happening.
@KaiserNeko Thing is, Mark gets a pass because he's completely new to the hero thing. He has no idea what he's doing, he was never given proper mentoring. If he had someone to tell him how he should handle relationships, and then did all this, Amber would be more justified. And I won't forgive her worrying about the soup kitchen and having the audacity to be mad at Matk when she thought he got hit by a bus, before finding out the truth. It's just not cool.
@@CatLeone2003 Mark DOES get a bit of a pass, because he IS new to it. It's why I never lambasted Mark or said he was a bad guy. But it was *six months* of that bullshit. She even tried to break up with him in the middle of it, but he doubled down and told her that he'd do better. She literally tried to do the right thing and he just lied more to get her to stay with him. And yeah, she was still frustrated after she found out about the "bus" accident, but she also knew he was a hero at that point, and was tired of the BS. Rightfully so, as well. Because in that moment, what happened? He didn't show up... because he was doing hero work. At that point, she likely just felt even more frustrated, because once again Mark wouldn't just be honest. Not about his identity, but about his AVAILABILITY. And even then-- EVEN THEN-- she still gives him ANOTHER CHANCE.
@@KaiserNeko Amber said she knew for weeks. Pretty sure there was a lot more than some weeks between soup kitchen thing and the college campus stuff. I just can't side with Amber at all, dude. She was unreasonable. Mark made mistakes, he should apologize for them, then move on. Amber needs therapy on how to be a good partner.
@@KaiserNeko If Mark wasn't there to fight Battlebeast, more people would've been hurt. He's lucky Battlebeast stopped, but it could've been so much worse. Personally, I'd rather be grateful that my favorite superhero can go to the hospital, and me not be dead, than if he were to go to a soup kitchen and almost the entire city destroyed. The needs of the many outweigh the meaningless wants of the few. Show Amber doesn't even seem like the type to give a crap about the soup kitchen, I can't lie.
A simple fix would have been when Mark revealed he was Invincible, Amber should have been shocked, she starts making connections to all the "lame excuses" Mark had been making about why he was late/missing but then still have her still be mad at him. Why? Because she feels, in this heated moment, that he should have told her, she is not looking at the big picture of him believing he's protecting her. Add on to when she goes to see Mark after he got beat to a pulp by his dad and now she can admit to him she understands the kinds of danger he was looking to protect her from, but that she is willing to take that risk.
Amber is the unfortunate unlucky girl that pulled the lotto for who gets to be the punching bag for everyone. Hell, she got done dirtier than all the superheroes and civilians that got killed in the show. She suffered the pain of having her whole character form the comic thrown into the 🗑️ and replaced with...yeah someone who everyone hates like no tomorrow. Honestly if she didn't have that happen to her, I bet Amber wouldn't be the most hated character..... probably, might be still some hate left over
I think if they had stuck to the original comic she would've been a loved character. She fits the part of the love interest subversion. I'm not sure what was the creative decision to make her a black sassy woman it's strange.
Only saving grace for Amber at that point, is if she actually never knew about Mark's secret identity, but simply said she did out of pettiness cause she was (understandably) angry at the moment.... Yet even so, I dont think it do much for her, because she simply hasnt been much of a likeable character overall, and the whole romance arc of the series fills like frustrating filler compared to all of the other way more interesting stuff going on.
KaiserNekko and whoever this Johny guy is are having a completely different conversation than the majority of fans and getting mad that people are stonewalling them. Amber and Marks story messes up because the set up leading to the fight is that of the typical "partner gets mad at hero for not being there for them" shtick because thats what it was in the comics as far as im aware , and even though I DESPISE that trope, the writers wanting to subvert the trope to make Amber appear smarter by knowing before hand doesnt fix it, it makes her worse retroactively. its like trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle by smashing in a piece from a completely different puzzle.The writers didnt realize that her knowing would have a ripple effect, it was unintentional, which is why they put ALL of the blame onto Mark, which makes the audience reject her as hard as they did MEANWHILE KaiserNekko and Johny are at the starting line arguing that a super-hero is "morally abhorant" for trying to be with someone they love while not being able to show every part of themeselves right away (which I disagree with, but regardless) Thats not what the show did, thats not what the show set up, and if it WAS what it wanted to do with Mark and Amber, they failed even worse than I thought. Season 2 Amber is the result of them trying to repair the damage they unwittingly did to Ambers character, not what they "planned to do from the start", to say anything else is cope, and no amount of KaiserNekko verbally fistfighting random commenters is gonna change that
That preview... I feel that pain. Going to watch this proper and comment again because apparently the Robot Overlords really like it when people comment. Starting with a MauLer sound byte no less... we're in for a treat. Very cultured.
This whole thing could've been avoided if they just stuck to the damn source material. But no, Amazon gotta Amazon. And like others have said, the biggest issue is the lack of accountability for Amber. KaiserNeko can talk all he wants about what superheroes should do and what Mark should have done...okay fine, we all know Mark isn't innocent but NOBODY called out Amber's behavior. The idea that it isn't her place to say anything is absolutely foolish and there is no way he would accept that behavior from someone in his actual life. KaiserNeko would be pretty upset if his husband...(or let's say boyfriend to make it less of a serious relationship) knew about a secret he was holding and never indicated to him that he knew something about it. Then to make it worse proceeds to gaslight him about it by pretending to act like a person who doesn't know the secret and is acting in a normal way (because they supposedly don't know) by admonishing him. Amber lives in a world where superheroes and supervillains exist so she is completely aware of why Mark would choose to keep it a secret once she figured out it was him. A normal person would've went, "Oh he's trying to protect me but since I figured it out I should probably let him know. At least then he doesn't have to feel like he needs to keep a secret." Then she has the nerve to come back into his life when he is at his lowest and compare him having is world and body completely shattered by his father to her being lied to by him and not one single person is like, "Uh...Amber, WTF?" You can still hold Mark responsible for his actions while calling out Amber for her issues. And we all know if the roles were reversed and Amber was the superhero and Mark was the civilian boyfriend and he acted like she did (including flirting at the college campus) Kaiser and Johnny would not treating this the same. None of the people that defend her behavior would. It's interesting because it's not until season 2 that it really occurred to her why Mark kept his identity a secret because for all of her toughness, she realized that she was nothing in front of Anissa. It's like "Oh...that's why he wanted to keep it a secret." It was just unfortunate that the most powerful beings in the universe already know who he is and therefore all of his loved ones are at risk.
Having watched it proper now... I do kind of respect what KaoserNeko has built but at the same time. He is responsible for a few very common misconceptions in Dragon Ball in spite of just what an expert he is with it. I am also reminded when he talked about this but with Steven Universe of all things. It is maddening that he got something so simple wrong regarding Amber. I'm just as surprised Rex wasn't brought up in comparison since it is very similar in regards to what happened with Mark but in reverse. Nothing is misunderstood about Amber, the issue is simple: why the hell did she get off scot-free when others paid a heavy toll in their respective relationships? Mark didn't do a great job either but at least he TRIED to explain himself to take responsibility for a relationship he wasn't ready to have. I think Amber was intentionally written to be worse than her comic counterpart because they wanted to separate Mark from Amber much sooner or more smoothly than how it was handled in the comics. Even so... the fact there were no consequences to what she did but also not having the AWARENESS of just HOW dangerous it is for someone to be dating a superhero for either: becoming a liability OR completely losing them the very next day. The show doesn't explore this for Mark's relationship but we do see its effects with Debby. Though on a separate note, Johnny2Cellos has a reputation of getting stuff wrong on occasion as well as his political leaning but that's twitter stuff which sometimes gets in his videos which is why I turned off watching his stuff. Fun video, if a bit painful. I hope this helps reach more people.
5 หลายเดือนก่อน +11
The fact that Amber in the comics is actually a pretty nice girl, she and Mark split up evenly and amicably, and there’s NO blow up over the secret identity like it’s basically shoved in Marks face here, is just sad. Like it’s not just the race swap, they completely DELETED her characteristics and personality to make whatever the show chose to put out. Also she DIDNT know he was a superhero, and thought he was a drug dealer since he had a pager for Cecil to communicate with him, so she was pretty relieved he was a hero and stayed by his side roughly till about the end of S2 in the plot, pops up a bit more, then everything is firmly centralized around Eve.
...And then Eve acts almost with the same reasoning as Amber in the tv series, despite knowing Mark identity from the start. I swear, Kirkman lost the plot somewhere around 2016-2018 or so.
I don't think Kaiserneko is contradicting himself. I think he's saying that superheroes shouldn't have relationships at all. Which is arguably even worse.
I think that starting a relationship with someone you can't be honest about with your availability and personal safety is a bad idea, and puts the other person under a lot of stress and turmoil. It's made worse when villains (as has been shown in MANY, MANY COMICS) have targeted their loved ones, EVEN WHEN those loved ones didn't even know the hero's identity. Like, if you look at romance in comics? It actually paints a rather vivid picture that superheroes dating civvies is actually pretty morally questionable. Lois Lane at least knew what the deal with Clark was before they got together.
@@serpentinious7745 Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. /s C'mon man, don't do that. There's *obviously* a middleground between "inherently unhealthy relationships that put people's lives at risk" and "being along forever until they inevitably break and go insane." And some superhero stories DO explore that, and how to make that work. Hell, Debra (Mark's mom) was able to work with Omni-Man being a hero. They made it work... until Nolan pulled his shit. But so much of that nuance in kind of flattened by this general audience acceptance that "Superheroes have secret identities, so it's okay that they lie to their partners!"
@serpentinious7745 How. Fucking explain. "You shouldn't start a romantic relationship where you cannot be honest about your availability" =/= "You should die alone", Jesus christ.
It's a testament to the quality of the source material that IN SPITE of what the animation did to Amber, the show still manages to be 8/10. Because everything that gets within 6 minutes of Amber is a giant argument in bad faith, wrapped around a core of gaslighting, stuffed in a political messaging suppository fashioned from barbed wire. All the other side characters were great. Even what they did to Mark's best friend (they cut about half his body mass and raised his voice four octaves) still left a generally likeable, relatable character. Amber was great in the comic. Everything about her in the animation is awful. She became genuinely unlikeable.
the correct take: mark was wrong for hiding his superhero nature from her because it endangers her, and he should've showed her his true self from the beginning or a bit after to fully inform her of who he is. amber was wrong for learning about this and not confronting mark about it, instead using it as an excuse to build up resentment towards him.
Literally at 5:45 i got an add about markiplier talking about mental health & I thought it was such a smooth transition to the Idiocracy that was about to be unfolded i didn’t realize it was an add lmao
The point about superheroes dating people that are not super powered is kinda interesting. It is a separate point on its own that could be interesting to talk about.
It probably didn't help that kaiser was being terribly passive aggressive to peoples comments on that video as well that disagreed with their narrative theyve set up.
Haven't completed the superman show yet, but I kinda need something answered. Spoilers for anyone that hasn't seen the scene. What's the context of the scene of Lois jumping for Clark to save her? Don't know the context but that was a dick move from her part tbh. Maybe she makes sense in context but just that scene alone was weird. Also, imo, Lois in all her appearences so far is kinda just an annoying journalist. So if you like the trope of the brave girl that does everything to know the truth, it's fine, but it can get really tiring fast. In this interpretation, she's kinda just a generic quirky tomboy girl (though the other characters aren't better considering where I am so far they're all stereotypes). So maybe the writing picks up, but it's kinda just a generic light hearted anime-like show for now.
It's not a shock hearing this from KaiserNeko, whom I love by the way, but the end of their Hellsing abridged gave me that vibe. The line saying some guy was a bad boyfriend because he said he'd support his girlfriend whether she chose to go to college or not. Came off as justifying bad behaviour and making excuses for it. I know it was meant as a joke but the scene is showing Alucard having to become a better person so that line is shown to be what a good person would say.
I don't really care ab the race swap, honestly. Amber in the comics was better for Mark. However, she was kinda bland. Them changing her design was pretty refreshing ngl. But her personality was worse somehow. Even tho Amber in the comics kinda had the personality of a 2x4 plank of wood, she wasn't overly annoying and was even understanding of Mark's whole 'superhero love' deal. But every time I saw Amber in the show, I just rolled my eyes bc I knew she was gonna chew Mark out for the dumbest reason. I literally bought all of the Compendiums for the comics just so I could compare the two iterations. When Amber and Mark broke up in the comics, it was honestly a lil sad. But in the show's version? I was as happy as can be bc that meant Mark was closer to getting with Eve. Tl;Dr: The problem isn't the race-swap. It's just the writers making her insufferable.
The fact she KNEW who Invincible was and then still treated mark like the scum of the earth is crazy. Amber just needs to stfu because you cant get mad at your boyfriend for literally saving the world. If i had a boyfriend or girlfriend who had a super hero alter ego i would not mind because I would much rather have them be a superhero rather than a super villian AND if they weren't there being a super hero then the planet would be mf dead
Big props to Kaiser Neko for actually jumping into this comment section to defend his points directly, and by that I mean not only leaving a comment correcting some of the vid's contradictions but actually directly replying to multiple other commenters. A lot of creators don't do that (and reasonably so) but he's confident enough about the points that he actually made (not to mention points that were misrepresented) that he's willing to go to bat for them to this extent.
The frustrating this is, people are seeing KS's version of what I said, and not the full thing in context. So people are responding to my take without full context, assuming WRONG SHIT ABOUT MY POSITION. WHICH IS GREAT. I LOVE THIS. SUPER GLAD.
@@KaiserNeko, did you post a credible source of people saying that Mark was not wrong. If you didn't, then your entire argument is mute. You can't say that people said something, when you don't have evidence of it. I love your work dude, like KS does, but you're wrong.
@@ChiefShibaInuoh neat notice how I never said "People say Mark did nothing wrong", but instead said "People hate Amber *way more* for her response to that behavior, and I think it's BS" See you're also misrepresenting my point.
Me first seeing the video title: "I feel like we've been here before, have we been here before?" Seriously though, maybe I'd need to rewatch the video to be certain, but I don't really have anything new to add to the conversation. Well, aside from one thing: when you mentioned the comparison of Omni-Man's actions and Amber's, specifically the writing surrounding them. If we weren't given much depth and if the writing had been overall terrible, I feel everyone would be harping on Omni-Man more than Amber. I'd bring in SW as an example (specifically Anakin in the prequels and Kylo in the sequels), but it'd be more relevant to bring up Snyder's Batman and Superman. Both are doing stupid things for reasons that are not well-explored and in fact are contradictory at times. And guess what? They, and their actions (e.g. Superman killing Zod, Batman branding criminals, Batman and Superman constantly arguing and bickering, etc.), have been *LAMBASTED.*
IF she knew he was a super hero and which one. Then she should have understood the assignment. It is fully known by the world at that point that the Guardians of the globe just got merked. She sees what villains are willing to do to the heroes as well as civilians in general. Hell, there are people I would not trust to tell something minor that I do not want most to know about without them blabbing it to the world. When you have a secret identity you need to be very VERY careful with who you trust about this secret. For if they tell anyone and it gets known to the wrong person then you have effectively screwed them and yourself and their loved ones.
I feel like both sides were in the wrong, but for different reasons. Mark was wrong for ditching her and not explaining why and only coming clean when confronted. However, i feel Amber was wrong for not just breaking it off with him and holding onto the resentment. She broke up with him twice. She had every right to break up with him if it wasn't working. At the end of the day, the relationship was not compatible.
I think KaiserNeko is awesome. He bares his whole soul on every topic he's passionate about. Even if I don't agree with his specific take that superheroes shouldn't start relationships with civilians, I still respect that he refuses to be misrepresented. But damn, I remember when KaiserNeko brought this up on the FourStarBento podcast with Lani. We were all just as flabbergasted about his opinion then as we are now. That said, I'm an adult. I disagree with KaiserNeko on Amber from Invincible, but this is ONE thing. Our different opinions on this ONE thing (a piece of fiction, no less) will not carry over to pretty much any other things. I hope everyone else can do the same. Good video, Kaiser Shounen
Hey, if you think this is annoying you should check out Pillar Of Garbages’ video on the Amber reveal. Get this, he actually says that the scene is fine because it portrays both Mark and Amber as flawed. No, it doesn’t! It’s clearly presented as a hard lesson that Mark needs to accept, completely one sided. Even if it was portraying Amber as flawed, that’s a pretty bad flaw for a character to have.
@ Exactly! If it was meant to present both sides as flawed the characters would’ve said Mark shouldn’t have dragged her on, but also called out Amber for reacting the way she did.
@@thomasraines1396 Yes. Which is why it baffles me when TH-camrs like Pillar just say stuff like this. It’s not my opinion either, it’s just common sense: she was written poorly and if someone acted similar to that in real life she would, or should, be labelled as a toxic girlfriend.
@@insectostrich4407 yeah. Another thing I feel is pretty messed up is after the “fight” with Nolan, she comes back to Mark and claims “looks like I wasn’t the only one being lied to” and just comes off as really insensitive. Mark - along with everyone else - was lied to for over a decade about the greatest hero being apart of a race of space tyrants sent to earth explicitly to help the conquering of the planet easier. Amber was lied to for a couple months and that window is lessened somewhat by the fact she figured out sometime before Mark “revealed” his secret.
There were a couple other Johnny videos I had issues with. Overall his stuff on South Park is pretty good, but I think he did similar videos when it came to Wendy and Tolkein.
Freakazoid: Cosgrove: C'mon Freakazoid everyone knows you're Dexter Douglas. Steph: Wait you're Dexter Douglas? Freakazoid: Cosgrove why'd you tell her? Cosgrove: Isn't she your girlfriend? Freakazoid: Of course I didn't tell her! Steph: How come Cosgrove knew? Freakazoid: He wasn't supposed to tell anyone!
The Kaiser neco person would have to be making the argument that not telling someone your secret identity who you're dating is A bad thing but it is okay to do that bad thing in that scenario. But that's not what he argued though when when people label things as bad or morally wrong. We are saying that you should do the opposite because people on average don't advocate for people to do bad things. When you tell someone or you say something is wrong to do, you are advocating for the opposite. At the very least, an average person is going to assume you're advocating for the opposite. Like if I say stealing is wrong, a normal person isn't going to assume that I am advocating for stealing. They're going to assume I'm advocating against it.
This is the stuff kaiser argues about in 2024. This argument has been done and dusted for years and i dont understand why people are still bringing it up. We all know she was in the wrong and the reason why is because it was a wierd inesthetic choice by the writers indulging in their petty power fantasy and thought they could get away with it. Which is why her character did a 180 in season 2. Mark did nothing wrong. In fact this whole series is about mark being fucked over emotionally, mentally and....well..spoilers quite physically. Again kaiser seems like a decent person but this isnt the first bad take hes had over the years and it probubly wont be the last. Most likely its because of his signifigant other and the friends he keeps around him. People usually have wierd takes and act off in order to appease or impress the people around them. You can easily define a person by the company they keep.
@@KaiserNeko just admit you defend amber because you just like her character. It's a bias. No shame in admiting that. It's semantics at this point. You can appeal to the fact that it's irresponsible for Mark to date when he's a super hero all you want but that will never be strong enough to convince people that it matters. It's just a nit pick about a decision a teenager made and it wasn't even that agregious enough to hold accountable for.
@@greeneyedassassin197 No, he did do something wrong. It's just understandable from his perspective of being a rookie superhero and an otherwise normal high schooler trying to balance both lives and everything that comes with them. What she did was WORSE though given she knew his secret since before the cyborg attack, should understand the gravity of such a secret given how smart she's portrayed as, and should come forward to him about it to take the burden off his back given how she's portrayed as wanting to help others. Her choosing to instead emotionally screw with him because he, for a MUCH better reason, did that to her, and then come back to him acting like what he did to her is even remotely comparable to what Omniman did to him is out of character and makes her look like a hypocritical jackass.
@@espurrseyes42 pretty much. My thing is it's telling the only reason he tries to defend her is that he's obsessed with diversity and is reaching way to hard to defend a character that adds literally nothing to the story. Even in the comics. she could not exist and it wouldn't affect the story at all. It's also a red flag that kaiser seems to not have any other problem with the series and chooses to specifically Lazer focus on this topic. It's bias and 99% of people can see that.
@@greeneyedassassin197 Naw, bro. "Mark did nothing wrong" is absolutely ridiculous. He fucked up for 6 months. He's not a bad person for it, he was a teenager who acted like a selfish jackass because he couldn't accept that he couldn't juggle his responsibilities, but he learned and grew. But "did nothing wrong" is dumb as hell, and he did need to be held accountable for leading someone else on for half a year.
Most of them are just selfish jerks. There's plenty of positive characterization though. Let's consider: 1) Cid, who does all kinds of shady shit to protect the world. He's actually a really interesting, sympathetic character to me. 2) Robot man, who does extremely shady shit for sympathetic but ultimately selfish reasons, and then seems to forget he's an inventor and leaves his clever approach to problems in the trash along with his old body. 3) Immortal, who spends most of the first season dead. 4) The Amazon? Knockoff wonder woman, who gets a couple lines of dialogue that make her seem like a cool person and then she dies. Similar for the rest of the original guardians. 5) Atom Eve, who is just nice but not interesting for most of season 1 and also off doing her own thing rather than being an example for the new guardians to rally around 6) Villains. 7) Then the other regular human characters, who are sorta interesting but ultimately have very little agency in conflicts of this scale. 8) Mark, who is a clueless good-boy everyman/blank slate without much in the way of unique personality. Basically, most of the superheroes that the story revolves around are either a) given fewer redeeming qualities than Omni Man except for being "good guys", chew up screen time with their edgy, selfish BS, or b) generic tropes in fancy costumes that don't give you much to connect to.
@@samflood5631 DupliKate, Explosion guy, and Monster girl, for exaomple. (her attitude is understandable, but grating). The central premise seems to be that superheroism wears people down and makes them arrogant, jaded jerks, but that's a problem for... at least 3 reasons. 1) the show goes to far into making its major characters so offputting up front, so you have to deal with their baggage before you get any real reason to care about them or be sympathetic to their problems. 2) This is compounded by the effective fake-out where it sets up characters that you start to care about only to immediately kill them off, which is very dramatic but comes at the cost of sabotaging the audience investment 3) the 'good' superheroes Atom Eve and Invincible don't have personalities apart from being 'nice', so you don't really have effective foils for the other characters.
13:17 Well, you could just date as a superhero, while keeping civilian identity secret. That way the girl knows that she's getting into (especially if superheroes are a known part of life) and is aware that you're keeping some things secret from her. I am indifferent towards Amber (focusing on doomed relationship so much was a mistake) but can see where her anger is coming from: being lied to and kept in the dark is unpleasant, even if you know everything and can empathize with the cause.
Johnny 2 Cellos is a prime example of how political brain rot destroys commentary. Kaiser hasn't been relevant since DBZ Abridged ended like a decade ago.
There is nothing morally grey about this, she gets mad at her superhero boyfriend for doing his job when she wants attention, she would rather be upset with Mark and indirectly disregard the potential thousands of people out there he could be saving, she is self centered and inconsiderate to anyone else when keeping the truth she already knew, simple as that. (At least In Season 1 )
I guess its too much to ask the content creators we like to be chill, cool, based, and not ideologically and politically driven. I miss the old tfs lol
Ive gotten to the point where id rather see media debate streams than video essays cuz they just seem to invite strawman and goal post pushing. Like i would love to see kaiser neko actually have in person(for lack of a better word) pushback for some of his takes.
@@KaiserNeko ok main question is there crucial context missing from your segment in this video if so what is it. Also can you acknowledge that it's (at least possible) to see your superhero relationship argument as id guess we'd call it a lose/lose situation as you imply you shouldn't date if you aren't going to tell someone your a superhero but most would agree most people wouldn't give that information to just anybody. Effectively telling superheros to never date.
@@fiyahman1000 My entire point was this: Romantic relationships (and to a certain extent, even PLATONIC relationships) between superheroes and civilians are complicated and morally dubious. When superheroes start relationships with civilians, there's two major issues up front: 1. Heroes cannot be openly honest about their secret identities (and probably shouldn't be) because it puts both them and the people they're dating in danger. Thus, heroes cannot be honest about their **priorities.** If they're being heroes and doing the right thing, they'll have to prioritize the job. Which either means making promises they can't keep or being unreliable partners. The first one is unfair and the second one is likely unsustainable. 2. Even if these heroes keep their secret from their partners, what happens when villains find out *another way*? They will target the people closest to those heroes. Like Green Goblin did in the original Spider-Man comic, or like how Anissa did in Invincible Season 2. Now, at least in Invincible S2, Amber actually knew and already committed to Mark. So when they broke up? It made sense. That was too much for her to handle, and the relationship was already rocky because, like I said before, it was unsustainable for Mark who was doing the right thing and prioritizing the job. All these things? I talked about *in the the video.* But KS misrepresents what I said, and says I'm contradicting myself. Which is totally BS. I was very clear, very in depth about my entire point. I even say, "Lois Lane was actually into Superman before they got together; meaning, she was ride or die with his lifestyle from the words, "Up, up, and away!" He also says we're "vague posting about hypothetical a**holes". But just looking at the comment section of the original video or at any/every interaction I've had about Amber on Twitter, or DerekFDB video along with his stupid, inaccurate, rage bait "SOUP KITCHENS > SAVING PEOPLE" thumbnail, and you can find DROVES of people making the arguments I'm disagreeing with, I've been having these conversations with people for years. Hell, you can even see some of those arguments IN THIS VERY COMMENT SECTION. tl;dr I never made the argument that he should have been open about his secret identity, only that his (understandable) inability to do so inherently hurt their relationship, and he needed to stop lying about his ability to commit. Also, I didn't "make up" people and/or arguments to be mad at, that's blatantly false.
Gotta defend Kaiser here: There's no contradiction. He's not saying it's bad when heroes don't expose their identities to their partner in response to strawman that says "So you're saying heroes should expose their identities to their partner". He's saying the hero shouldn't have gotten themselves into this position in the first place. "You're saying heroes should reveal their identities to their partner?" "No, I'm saying heroes shouldn't have partners they know they can't be honest with in the first place. *It's morally reprehensible to START a relationship with someone you can't be honest with.* "
THANK YOU, GOOD LORD. I say this THROUGHOUT THE VIDEO, too. But does KS show that? NOPE. He cuts out one part, plays it out of context, then argues with a take I did not make.
@@KaiserNeko I can see how someone might've missed the nuance, but that's akin to saying superheroes can't have relationships unless the relationship has already developed enough that they can trust the other person with life or death secrets. Chicken-egg conundrum. Most people don't have life or death secrets, but they do have secrets, and there comes a point where they should be shared. Amber doesn't get a pass, because she's keeping a secret as well: she knows. That secret is far less important than Mark's secret, but she expects him to figure out the Gordian knot ON HIS OWN while having the weight of the world dumped on his shoulders, while she contributes NOTHING to resolving the situation and dumps all the blame on him.
@@KaiserNeko Don't they also bring this up in the show? IIRC, Eve even says "This is why you should only date other superheroes" to just kind of show how much drama it brings. Granted Mark points out Rex and just kind of brushes past it, but still.
@@Roukle I don't know what it is about me, but I don't blame her for not telling Mark she knew. To me, that was just her giving him the room to be honest, instead of forcing him to come clean. Is it strange that, that makes sense to me? Maybe because it happened to me in the past with someone else, and it... just made sense then too. I dunno. But when it comes to Amber and Mark, like, I said, nobody ever, EVER says that he should've told her his secret. Only that he needed to stop making promises he couldn't keep. And if that meant they couldn't date? Then... well, I think that's just the unfortunate reality.
@@blade1hunter100 I think they're right, tbh. I mean, Lois Lane at least was into Superman before she found out he was Clark. So at least there, she knew what he was about before they ever committed.
I feel like you may have misunderstand Kaiserneko argument. The way I understand it is: Superheroes should date people who already know about their superhero life and can make informed choise. He doesn't want them to reveal it to "random person they started dating", but instead to get to know someone, establish that they are trustworthy, share your secret and only then start romantic relationship. That way it is not contradiction, but of course i'm not Kaiserneko so it's just my understanding
That is even worse as an idea! You effectively say to start a relationship without starting one, then reveal a secret that only the closest people ought to know and finaly ask for a romantic relationship?! 1. Pretty sure that is not how romantic relationships work. 2. That sounds like emotional blackmailing since you effectively put that person on the spot with such a plan. 3. The point is to get a relationship with the person rather than the hero, this seems like wanting to get one with the hero. In short a hero cannot have a relationship with a civilian period and can only date other heroes unless he does not have a secret identity. Hell if you think about it considering how it works that is the case for every relationship!!! Let alone romantic ones, friends would also be part of this. The idea that you would treat everyone with that level of absurd respect is assinine.
It's actually the opposite. In the comics, Amber didn't know Mark was Invincible until he told her and she was shocked, but because they racewapped her they couldn't have her not know because that would imply she had some flaw that prevented her from figuring out marks identity.
Okay, video aside, I might as well give my own take on the whole Amber and her and Mark’s relationship dilemma no one asked for. Personally, I think both sides are at fault here. Mark for jumping into a relationship without maintaining and balancing that and the hero business all that well with instances of him being dishonest and Amber for testing his honesty and patience, knowing full well about his secret identity for a good about a time before giving him grief about it. (Plus, I’m not a fan of how the fact that the show itself says Mark was completely at fault of the whole thing. Feels one sided imo.) And while I agree that she has gotten a lot better and more understanding in the next season, it wasn’t enough for me to care about her completely (Even more so considering that Spoilers: The two broken up in the later half) So yeah in conclusion, I don’t hate Amber nor do I think she’s completely at fault per say, I just don’t care about her as much as everyone here on the internet does, whether they hate or love her
Both sides are absolutely at fault. Mark for lying about his ability to commit (NOT about his identity) and Amber for acting like she did at the college. If she wanted to explode at him for dragging her along for over half a year, she had the right to... in private, making that actual point, and not hiding it behind a facade of him running away when the cyborgs showed up. That shit was weird.
@@KaiserNeko Yeah, I agree. Maybe by having their conversation in private, Amber wouldn’t be getting as much hate as she (still) does now. But it is what it is
In the video, I make it very clear that the problem is superheroes dating civilians *in the first place*. That whole part of the video is an exploration of expectations and commitments being effected and denied because of the expectations of superhero life. There is no contradiction. KS just showed the clip out of context and made an argument I DID NOT MAKE.
@@KaiserNekosomewhat true, but honestly your points are still pretty bad in regards to the basis against mark/ in favour of amber. To be fair, you do say both are in the wrong, but you seem to either ignore the nuance or just miss it in the first place. Simply, one was petty and vindictive over an unwilling failure of their partner, the other was arrogant but genuinely well meaning, and had actual objectively higher responsibilities to prioritise, whilst not knowing that their actions were an issue, nor with any intent to break any promises, yet the one who was objectively malicious is supposed to be seen as the one in the right over the arrogant screw up that objectively did a better thing, both in terms of responsibilities, and in comparison to the other person. I don't think I can summarise the opposing view any more clearly than that. Both were deceptive, both were quite arrogant, and both screwed up, but only one faced any consequences, and was also painted as solely in the wrong, thus people got especially hostile towards that character, not to mention any plausible deniability for said characters actions and anger were destroyed, yet the one who reasonably has it was portrayed as the sole wrongdoer. Do you really not get why people hate amber over mark?
Also some people forget that In the SAME EPISODE she contemplates CHEATING ON MARK WHILE SHE ALSO KNOWS HES INVINCIBLE sure at the time we don’t know that she knows but then it’s revealed that she Does know and it recontexualizes that ENTIRE cheating scenario
I just hate the lack of accountability on Amber's part and unfortunately people do this towards women in real life where they're unfortunately more willing to give the woman the benefit of the doubt and put all the blame on the man and people just expect the man to take it and treat her with respect regardless as evident with how every character blames it all on mark and acts like amber did nothing wrong when in reality she was just as bad if not worse and she herself doesn't even apologize either because that's the unfair reality we live in where everything with a woman is always the man's fault,
I despise the people who always wanna pull the gender card or the race card anytime you criticize a woman, those people have no argument and I cant help but like the comic version of amber more for actually communicating with mark the entire time and being reasonable
@SpiderSora I agree, the accountability is the main sticking point for me.
modern hollywood writing a woman cannot be shown being dominated or wrong in front of a man after all women are far to strong and indipendant for that.
@@SpiderSora im surprised kaiserneko isnt in this reply section yelling at you about how “youre absolutely wrong,,, wah wah wah, Shes infallible wah wah wah, inarguably good person who cares if she cheats she works in a soup kitchen 😭😭😭😡🤬” give it a couple days lmao i may have spoke too soon
@@KingBullDogg I wish he fucking would because that's these npc's problem, they get mad at you for telling the truth, this is exactly why the saying women have no accountability exists, it's not our fault that these people and some women have created a world where its taboo and against the rules to criticize a woman
@@KingBullDogg I wish he f*cking would because that's these npc's problem, they get mad at you for telling the truth, this is exactly why the saying "women have no accountability" exists, it's not our fault that these people and some women have created a world where its taboo and against the rules to criticize a woman
11:25
If I was to look at his statement in good faith. I think team 4 star’s Kaiser is implying, that in this specific scenario, Mark should have rejected all the advances of Amber (or any other girl) until he can say for a certain that he’s known them long enough to say he wants to pursue a long term romantic relationship and that he feels safe telling them his secret identity.
If this is the case, I can agree that he is technically correct. However, I would say this process would probably never work. By the time Mark is ready to be with a girl, the girl in question would have most likely moved on already. If this is the only correct path that Kaiser is pushing, then Marks only real option is to either date Hero’s exclusively, or just gamble his fate by telling his parter too early and hope for the best.
My point is that heroes dating civilians is highly unbalanced, and makes for complicated, often toxic relationships. It also puts them in danger, without them even being aware. Like, remember, Gwen Stacy *didn't even know* Spider-Man's identity when she was killed because Green Goblin targeted her. Unfortunately, I think that dating heroes is the right move. In a word where there are many heroes and many villains, who know the score, and have incentive to keep their secret identity.
I'm not saying impossible for a hero to date a civilian and for it to go well, but a lot of things have to align for it to work. Like Lois and Clark.
@@KaiserNeko
First, Hey Kaiser. Hope you’re doing well and that you don’t get too much flak for your opinion.
but yes, I agree with you.except for the toxic relationship part. Everyone has baggage that varies from harmful to benign. When you date someone, your putting yourself in the position where the others problems can hurt you.
The only time I can say one should tell their partner about their baggage before they’re ready, is if the problem is or is about to affect them negatively. Or if they want to ask the person to marry them.
If you agree with me, Mark doesn’t meet that qualification. He wasn’t ready, and There was no reason to believe that his superhero life would put Amber in danger. Mark is actually responsible with his secret identity (none Of that MCU crap were they always remove their mask) and has too many safety nets in his life that would prevent Amber from ever being in trouble outside of stumbling into a random supervillain.
The only acceptation to the rule is when the Viltrumites just come to earth and knew immediately who Mark is. That situation is an unknown unknown and shouldn’t be used to make responsible decisions.
Ps
I don’t think a lot has to align for a superhero to successfully date a civilian. But I do think a lot has to align for it to fail. As long as the hero makes responsible decisions, they should be fine.
@@KaiserNeko I'm disappointed in this displayed performance, man. I gotta let you know I don't FW Amber like that, gang... Even after everything. Amber really should've confronted Mark as soon as she could when she found out rather than being childish about it by waiting just to shit on Mark for wanting to help keep the world safe. Mark being a bad boyfriend is one thing, but to say or imply Amber should be free of any and/or all guilt for her own actions is insane.
@@KaiserNeko , Superman didn't get married and had a family with Lois Lane until Lex Luthor cloned Superman and made Superboy, and Batman married and had a family with Catwoman resulting directly their daughter being Huntress, and Thomas Wayne taking up the new Bat mantle in Earth 2, so I agree with you fully that supers should only marry 💑 💑 supers.
@@KaiserNekodamn bruh its been 4 days you ain't gotta rebuttal boi @salazar.945 over here?
The writers tried to be clever with a twist of an old troupe and it backfired.
Ive neen rewatching Batman Beyond and seeing Dana and Terry's rocky relationship reminded me of Mark and Amber's.
This is really one of those situations where they should've just kept it simple
And people HATED the Dana Terry Relationship then.
In one sentence:
People don't have a problem with Amber, they have a problem with the show being completely on Amber's side.
Pretty much, yeah. I haven't watched season 2 but I've heard people are alright with Amber in season 2, which confirms what you're saying is true.
Except it's not on Amber's side if it really was the original context wouldnt be framed from Mark's perspective
It would have paned to Amber for a second so that it was Absolutely Clear that Mark was given every opportunity to leave if he had prior commitments and that his reluctance to even make an excuse is emotionally damaging
The fact that for years people online have been raging over this one character( especially the bigots) shows that they were more focused on Mark's angle
Anyone who actually paid attention would have seen how Mark was being a bad boyfriend
@@demonking-zm3rs If the show is not on Amber's site, how is it bigoted to not be on Amber's side?
Being on Mark's side? That, i think, is the only side to be on. if someone kept ditching me, I would prefer they be an acting superhero than ditching me to drugs, cheating on me, or any number of things.
do I understand that would make people frustrated? absolutely. if you knew for weeks, then what the hell.
I always hate the argument of "You can't hate this character because there's this other character who has done so much worse." There's a reason why Umbridge is more hated than Voldemort. There's a reason why Skyler White is hated more than Walter White. There's a reason why Amber is hated more than Omni-Man. Egotistical, abusive teachers, passive aggressive cheating spouses, and disingenuous snarky partners are far more common than over-the-top genocidal wizards, murderous drug-lords, and intergalactic fascist aliens. Of course people are going to find the more relatable characters more obnoxious - their flaws are less "fun" / fantastical and instead things we're already far too familiar with. Add in plots that occasionally seem to handwave / defend these behaviors and you get an even bigger annoyed audience. (Not trying to claim that Skyler White was unjustified though, lol - just understandably annoying as a character to watch sometimes.)
Shit, at least with Umbridge, the narrative was against her. (I don't know too much about BB) But with Amber, what makes it worse is how nobody ever challenges her moronic thought process. The narrative bends over backward for her, with William and Eve shitting on Mark and thinking Amber did nothing wrong.
All of these villains have qualities people admire. They are competent, they are intelligent, they are consistent, they have will power and dedication to a cause. They may be misguided and evil, but they are admirable non the less.
But characters like Amber are just evil. They have no likable qualities, they have nothing worth aspiring to. They are just pure evil. And they are pure evil that go unpunished and get squeeze out of punishment.
That is wht people hate them so much more.
@@Katokhann Same thing is happening in comic version, but with Monstergirl and Robot relationship. And Atom Eve, twice.
The whole “why are we expecting so much of a teenage girl” argument is a copout. Them being young and a women is not an excuse for shity behavior.
If they have that argument then the reverse is also true;
"Why are we expecting so much of a teenage boy"
It's the socratic method.
You apply the logic both ways, and it can help resolve a LOT of issues.
@@kairu_anameexactly. Where’s that same grace for Mark?
@@marlom7882
Logically she's contradicting, but he's not.
He's doing his best but just can't seem to get it right.
You can't fault him for that.
Amber has a whole nonsensical contradictive passive aggressive mess and people say mark is somehow at fault?
Nah, bruh. It don't pass the sniff test.
@@kairu_aname *THANK YOU!*
Green goblin is a great example of a villain knowing a secret identity and using a loved one for torturing the hero gwen stacy the fake aunt may death where he got a actress and made her against her will pretend to me aunt may even surgically altered and actually killed her making peter think aunt may died and other awful things hes done over the years to peter
Fun fact! I talked *at length* about how Green Goblin targeted Gwen Stacy when he found out Spider-Man was Pete *in the video,* and actually made a point of why superheroes dating civilians is actually morally dubious.
Peter in general is the "this is why secret identities are important" guy. He reveals himself in the Civil War arc that he's Spiderman because Tony told him to, and regardless of the fact that he switch to Cap's side, that led to King Pin sending a hitman after him when he got home, getting Aunt May shot and put in critical condition (or MJ outright killed in an alternate continuity) because of it.
@@espurrseyes42 The fucked up thing is, Gwen died even though she DIDN'T know. Because when Green Goblin found out, he targeted her to get to him. So it doesn't even matter if they know or not, villains will still target the people close to them if they find out their identities.
@@KaiserNeko Thats cool and all, but literally no one was arguing against that. Especially in the context of a random unrelated party finding out the hero's identity, the primary argument is against the self-contradicting nature of amber's character, which isn't addressed by this
@@jackofastora8962 I actually brought it up to make a longer, greater point about superheros dating civilians, and why it's not as cut and dry as people think.
A *lot* of people get mad when you point this stuff out.
The idea that a SuperHero would tell a girl he has BARELY started dating, about his identity is so ridiculous I can't even describe it properly.
That's something you tell her when you're about to get married. Or after YEARS of dating. It's such a consequential secret that if they love you, they would absolutely understand why you didn't tell them.
Come on. They're fucking highschoolers. Honestly Mark shouldn't be telling EVEN a long term girlfriend at that age. It's a secret that once out, can never be taken back, the risk is simply too massive.
I would argue that's what Teenager Superhero would do. Teenager being the key word here.
Teenagers aren't really well known for Their long term insights. So of course They would blab Their secret identity to Their friends or loved ones.
Apparently in the comics shes fine, idk how you can mess something up that badly😭🙏
Because they have to make her "smarter" which means they also have to make her a bitch because they want to have their stupid drama cake of her being upset he's not around, despite the fact that she KNOWS why he can't be.
Wokeness. That's how. It's always why they raceswapped her.
@espurrseyes42 idc about the raceswap, as long as they don't f up a character... but at least if they didn't raceswap, it could've been called white women shit
@cryotherapy7557 Raceswaps in animation are _never_ done for good reason. They are aways a red flag of woke activism in the writers' room and should be treated as such.
In the comics she was way better that whatever it was in the show, she was far more likeable and cool.
Amber being black is a race swap I can live with, its the forced "I'm a smart black girl moment" (Thats how it felt to me) that kinda ruins her character. I dont remember who said it but another youtubet put it plainy, "It doesnt make her smart, it makes her actually seem kinda dumb, especially when she gets made at Mark dispite knowing."
@@RcdevilDX race swaps of all kind are still annoying this is tolerable at best
@@wingsoffreedom3589 100% agree. I have 1 or 2 exceptions but other than that. Pointless.
@@RcdevilDX only exception I can think of is Nick fury and that's cause Sam Jackson is inherently more interesting than white fury. But even then he's based off of ultimate universe Nick fury Jr. who is the son of original white nick fury I think he was adopted so technically a different character.
@@wingsoffreedom3589 yea he's definetly a main one. At least up until recently in secret wars. His race was never apart of his character until that show and thats what I liked about him. He was just Nick Fury, no race attached.
@@RcdevilDX yep and what people miss is the reason for the change is because we like nick fury for Sam Jackson's personality not his race.
I suppose I will throw my hat in the ring for a sec.
I think most people sympathized with Amber until that crappy reveal happened. Before then, from our perspective, we knew that Mark was just being a superhero, but Amber (at least, based on what it seemed) was unaware of that. From her perspective, it seemed like her boyfriend was just a crappy guy who kept bailing on her to do whatever he wanted without spending proper time with her and without explaining to her what he's really doing. Hell, Eve herself advised against Mark dating anyone other than superheroes and Mark is a new hero. He's insanely strong due to his blood from his father, but other than that...he's not very good at this in S1. Combine that with trying to balance his personal life (including a romantic relationship) with his superhero duties, and you can tell that he's just not doing well managing it. Mark wasn't a very good boyfriend, but he was trying. He just rushed into it, and I still think that revealing his identity just to try and save his relationship was a dumb move, but it was a dumb move that reflected his character.
Honestly, I feel like people would've been fine with Amber if she never found out until that scene, as it would force her to reevaluate the relationship. If she decided to just break up with Mark right then and there without the dumb reveal that she knew for weeks, that would've been fine. Hell, that's what they ended up doing in S2 anyways. And Amber was much better in S2 (even if she felt a bit too restrained due to...all of this baggage).
As for superhero identities and how much a hero like Spider-Man could reveal...it depends. I think as long as they do a decent job at balancing their relationships (romantic and platonic) along with their personal responsibilities and hero work, then I don't really see it being a problem hiding that superhero life until they've known one another till they've known each other for a while. Again, Mark handled the relationship pretty badly, but Amber's credibility gets wasted in a single scene when you could easily sympathize with her before that point. People only really began to hate her when that reveal happened.
@@DetectiveCy that is the best explaination against Amber. If the writers made Amber not know until Mark reveals it, it wouldve made so much sense. I guess they were afraid to make Amber look dumb which they could've just made her say that she had a hunch or something. They just made her unreasonable.
I like KaiserNeko. He along with everyone at TFS have made me laugh a ton and I respect him for what he's managed to accomplish. However, I've seen him make plenty of takes on Twitter that absolutely frustrate me. I don't understand how he can defend Amber, and I also can't understand how he found The Last Jedi at all enjoyable when it did many things wrong; which would only get worse in the very next movie.
The only way Kaiser Neko’s argument makes sense is if he thinks Mark should’ve never dated her from the start, since he wouldn’t be able to be honest with her. So either he only dates someone that already knows his secret before he starts dating them in the first place, or he refrains from dating entirely. And neither of those is a very reasonable argument.
In our original video, that IS the argument I make. Which is why this video is frustrating.
And it *is* a reasonable argument. *Why* does him being a superhero mean that the person he dates has to suffer a shitty relationship? Why does it give him carte blanche to be a crappy boyfriend? Everyone keeps saying, "Well that's not fair to Mark!" Mark's feelings aren't more important than his partner's!! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE
@@KaiserNeko Dude, chill out.
From Amber's perspective, yes he'd be a crappy boyfriend, but ONLY if she didn't know he had powers. Which he does, and she knows he does. So it just comes off as unnecessarily mean that she treats him like that when she's always going on about helping people. And sure, she might be helping the homeless, but he's directly saving the people she wants to help.
What people are mad about is that she's being unreasonable and not understanding at all. This compared to comic Amber, who was admittedly not very smart, but at least her heart was in the right place.
Also, kinda funny how you're responding to every single comment that mentions you lol
@Itariatan No, he *was* a crappy boyfriend. The reason doesn't matter, because he had SEVERAL opportunities to stop being a crappy boyfriend, but never took them.
Remember, she told him what the deal was up front. She was so blunt about it, it almost felt hostile. And when he completely dropped the ball, she *still* was patient with him... for MONTHS. And when she started getting straight up sick of his shit, she tried to break up with him, but he begged her to stay. And she did, because again, she was *trying* to give him a chance to stop being crappy.
Y'all are acting like he had no choice but to keep dating her, or keep prioritizing his work over her. And while the latter is arguably true, from a moral standpoint, the former is *not.* He should've broke it off with her instead of promising he'd get better over and over, only to keep disappointing her.
And while she knew for a couple weeks? He didn't finally tell her until she broke up with him as a last minute hail marry to get her back, which to be honest? Is absolute BS.
She was not perfect, her actions at the college sucked, but they were out of justified anger.
tl;dr He was not a good boyfriend, was given *multiple* chances to either shape up or ship out, and instead he just kept trying to make it work, TO BOTH THEIR DETRIMENT.
And trust me, I don't wanna be in this comment section either. But someone decided to make a video misrepresenting my point and actively insulting me, and now I feel the need to address the BS.
@@KaiserNekohow is he going to know when to tell someone thou, I mean the only way this can really work is if the girl he liked happened to already know and depending on his social circle size, that may not be a option at all. Keep in mind people often date people to see if they are a fitting partners and people in general seek companionship. It’s valid way to view it, but it’s pretty unrealistic for people especially those young as mark is. Overall though I my biggest issue is the show not calling out amber at all for being just as shitty and keeping she knew already while emotionally gaslighting him, if she had snapped after the soup incident and said she knew people would be a lot less mad in my opinion. Or had one of marks friends side with in rant similar to that one scene in Kaguya Sama would have made it redeemable in my eyes.
Also the scene where the jerk jock said amber blackmailed them with embarrassing photos to give mark there number didn’t sit right with me in hindsight because depending on what that is exactly, that’s a flat out crime.
At least she was better in season 2.
@KaiserNekoin all fairness. Amber was also a crappy girlfriend
Amber being angry at Mark when he disappears to save people or the world wasn’t the problem. Her rejecting him when he decided to reveal his secret identity out of desperation to continue the relationship wasn’t the problem and was somewhat understandable. It was the fact that by making her smart enough to deduce that Mark was Invincible completely undermined her reason to be angry in the first place. I’m not saying that Mark was the perfect boyfriend, he was seventeen and Amber was his first girlfriend, but Amber wasn’t a perfect girlfriend either. Both sides made mistakes and didn’t handle the issues in the relationship in a healthy and mature manner, but as stated above they were teenagers so that is a moot point. I think that it would have been better if when Mark revealed he was Invincible Amber could have just said something like “Oh my god it all makes sense” and just refused to get back together.
If she went “FUCK. Okay…damn. But I still can’t do this” literally no one would have a problem with her character
The fact that she made it seem like she felt abandoned to die by her bf is waht gets me.
Like, BIH, you KNOW he saved you, and still made him look like trash in front of everyone on-scene AND the audience.
And you have the gal to play smartsy pants with the reveal?
"Oh the issue are the lies" is SUCH a let down from "I thought my bf let me to die"
@@denkerbosu3551 the fact she sees a hero from her city appear to save them, AND her boyfriend she knows is a hero just disappeared…THEN YELLS AT HIM FOR DISAPPEARING LIKE HE ABANDONED HER?!? Either she’s genuinely stupid or she’s an emotionally manipulative piece of shit
Even the writers knew they fucked up. She's a totally retconned woman in Season 2. Like. For the far better.
The same people who say Amber was right are the same people who think Johnny Depp is an abuser.
That's because kaiser neko is an idiot on the best of days.
Ironic how both cases involve somebody named Amber
Both are correct and based.
I mean, he was, but so was Amber, and that pisses off both sides of that argument, and I don't care
@@ArynWellspringthat's a bit complicated, and the complication is the reason Amber lost the case.
Amber & Johnny have differing trauma responses as a result of prexisting abuse patterns. Johnny withdraws, and Amber gets confrontational.
Johnny withdrawing was causing her to get anxious, so she would pursue harder & taunt him, make threats as she repeatedly corners him, and even get physical until he either lashed out, or someone nearby forced her to leave. It started requiring bigger and bigger shows & goading from Amber, because the lack of confrontation to meet her sets off an anxiety response in her.
Anyone actually observing it from start to finish struggles to fit that in their normal idea of abuse, unless they *also* see his lashing out as abuse. That's why she had to craft narratives of him inflicting worse & worse abuse to her, until it became unbelievable, to salvage peoples' perception of her.
The bottle penetration story, for example, was supposed to explain & overshadow the fact that she sliced off the tip of his finger, except that he had evidence consistent with his injury, and she didn't, because it would practically kill her.
At the end of the day, she was manufacturing stories & grand displays of her being a victim of abuse to the public, which was materially untrue when she was the instigator, with a history of being abusive to others, while being both unable to find anyone Johnny had abused, instead having people she cited speak *well* of him in the case.
There's also the elephant in the room that tensions are high when a show's recent. I've seen people *really* hating Adventures with Superman!Lois because she got mad at Clark for hiding his secret identity despite having explicitly told him she was gonna expose Superman's secrets, therefore confirming his insecurities. Then they calmed down once it became clear that Lois wasn't really being written as if she was right the whole time.
I liked Amber in season one, I understood why Mark didn’t tell her but I also thought he should have just taken the bandaid off and either broken up with her or told her. When they broke up I didn’t Hate her because we thought she thought Mark abandoned her and William. When it was revealed she knew his Secret identity and had known for weeks that’s when my opinion on her soured.
Then the narrative, Willam and Eve all treated Mark like he was at fault and that was annoying.
And then Amber inserted herself back into Marks life by comparing Mark not telling his secret identity to a girly he’s been in a relationship with for months to his Dad lying to him his whole life and then beating the absolute Hell out of him, and the narrative still treats it like that’s a good thing, like those to things are comparable. That’s when I really started to dislike her.
Now second season comes around and she’s better, more open, more understanding, more sweet moments between the two but at the same time I still remembered how bad the fumbled her character in season one. I didn’t dislike her now but it still altered how I look at a character. Plus I was just waiting for them to break up to start the Mark and Eve relationship.
I think i get where they were coming from maybe: that the show was trying to make a realistic commentary on superhero relationships and they saw it as people dismissing that. The problem being that nobody really was, and i can't think of a superhero relationship that doesn't go into trust or secrecy issues. The big three "toxic superhero gf relationships" they mentioned being Lois Lane, Amber and Mary Jane all feature it prominently as each character's arc. Wonder why most people like Lois and MJ, but not this version of Amber? It's because writing her as figuring it out before the reveal recontextualizes all the actions she took, and the writers in their attempt to make her smart enough to piece it together unintentionally made her seem callous or malicious.
I think what they failed to say plainly, at least in the clips you provided, is that the secrecy of superheroes is toxic, so heroes shouldn't pursue such relationships for the greater good. The problem with that arguement is that it is very depressing for one: do a good job at heroing in order to go home to an empty civilian life with no loved ones or close friends. The second problem being that most do this already, so the commentary is largely superfluous: we aren't dismissing it because it's not valid or some form of right, we are dismissing it because it's ingrained in the mantle of superhero to the point of being white noise. Invincible is not a gritty scathing commentary to tear apart the genre like The Boys, it is a gritty retelling of the tropes that are good in comics, and the show's adaptation stumbled in this one moment.
Very good, I think this is a proper explanation regarding their video and the overall issue.
I go in depth on these points in my video. The clips KS showed were only part of a bigger breakdown of the topic.
I wouldnt say mj is liked equally as Lois. Granted thats due to how the writers have been making the comics for the past few years but thats really my only disagreement with your great take
Hating on amber for justifuable reasons and a mauler reference too. You sir are a based man of culture subbed😊.
Bro seeing Kaiser act like this in the comments is so depressing and somehow not surprising at the same time.
In this video the 09:00 - 10:15 mark is what really made majority of people dislike Amber. No one is defending Mark of what his treatment of Amber but her knowing FOR weeks and what she said to Mark (despite knowing hes Invincible) at the college was meant to PUBLICLY SHAME Mark by saying hes a coward and the show is treating like its only Mark was wrong. KaiserNeko lost that part.
Her shaming Mark was bullshit. We could have talked more about that, but I was more focused on the BULLSHIT arguments people were making. And they WERE being made, regardless of what KS says here.
Though I will say her knowing and not saying anything wasn't the problem. It was the explosion at the college that was the biggest, actual issue. And we can all recognize that. But at least there's a way to explain why it happened, i.e. her frustration with Mark LYING FOR HALF A YEAR about his ability to commit.
@@KaiserNekodishonesty is an issue with mark but not with Amber is a good way of clarifying your stance
@@krishnanandpremanand3581I'll say, the way she responded to Mark at the campus was a really weird decision by the writers. Because there are ways to explain it, but they literally all have to be inferred because the show doesn't explain it.
But her keeping it close to the vest that she realized he was a superhero (which it is implied that she had "figured it out", not that she'd seen actual evidence) was her giving him room to do the right thing. (In this case, either break up with her or change the problematic behavior.) Which, to me, isn't morally wrong. She COULD have also told him, but that takes away HIS chance to fix the issue.
@@KaiserNeko that argument I could agree with you that yes there are people making arguments against Amber that are BS. But in the show perspective Mark is clearly shown to be an immature teenager given a responsibility of a superhero, the in universe acknowledges that as a flaw of Mark. But Amber's accountability on her part was not being acknowledged in Season 1, she was being excused in-universe. That college scene drastically changed her personality to the audience's eyes because it's completely out of left field. She was completely cool in my opinion before that.
@KaiserNeko I disagree with you that she shouldn't have told Mark the moment she found out. Her entire argument to mark hinges on honesty and communication, and thus all information that could compromise the situation should be discussed immediately. Her waiting for mark to fix his own mistakes is still an atrocious choice, because if she just said "hey, answer me honestly about this question. Are you Invincible?" The moment she found out, they could have actually had a long through discussion about expectations, boundaries and reasonings behind their actions. If that occured, her character would be great. However, she chose to withhold the information, knowing the other person had an absurd choice to make. She should have known that what she was doing would cause a greater amount of harm in the end and yet chose to do so anyway.
People in relationships go in to them with secrets. The trust they build brings them out. Amber figured out one of his most important secrets, gaslit him about it, and then shamed him for his heroics. Kaiserneko is objectively wrong.
So I don't think kaizer necko has made a set of contradictory rules.
If we take the two rules as follows:
It is good and right for a super hero to preserve their secret identity
It is important to be open and honest with your commitments in a relationship
What this means is that it is impossible for amber and invincible to date at all.
But invincible and atom eve know about each other's commitments. Kaizernecko's argument disallows Clark Kent and Louise lane to have a relationship and it disallows Clark Kent and Diana Prince from having one. But superman and wonder woman would be ok because they both understand their commitments and the level of danger their partnership causes each of them.
Do I think it's ok that kaizernecko thinks only ubermench superheroes can be in relationships with each other while leaving the common man out ? I don't think it's great personally but to each their own
My take is that, you shouldn't enter a relationship if you're going to put the other person through stress/duress they didn't agree to up front.
That's my primary issue. If you can somehow navigate around that? Fine. Awesome. Otherwise? Avoid dating.
@@KaiserNeko You just said his summary of your rules was correct
I like Johnny and Kaiser Neko. They have made some really great stuff. They do have a history of having some bad takes here and there, sometimes to the point of rewriting history.
That is why I went with just Shady Doorags. I liked him more back when Bojack Horseman was ongoing and now he has done vids on King of the Hill.
They say in the video that you can’t argue with them. Actually, yes I can. And I did in their comments section.
Hell no. Any validity she had about Mark abandoning her goes RIGHT out the window when she says she knew he was a superhero for some time. Meaning she knew AT LEAST during the cyborg attack why her ran off and that he didn't abandon her, but did the opposite and saved her butt. She knew what he's been going through on a regular basis and why he's always getting injured and isn't around in his normal life, yet chastises him as if she doesn't. Certified scumbag behavior.
Also I've heard this point before: Let's say Mark wasn't a superhero. So that means she's getting mad at him, a normal person, for running for his life when a cyborg starts reeking havoc so he doesn't, ya know, DIE. She's expecting him to act like he's some kind of hero and stay there to help out at the risk of getting reduced to a smear on the floor. You can't blame him for being scared there, and you can certainly blame her for getting mad at his reasonable reaction to the situation.
Don't forget that in that episode she was still mad about him not showing to her dumb ass soup kitchen when the story was he got hit by a bus. The hell was he supposed to do about that?
@@shadowagent7361 She was frustrated because, if you look at the timeline, she knew he was a superhero by this point. And so when she saw him, she knew he was lying about the bus, and that he'd prioritized his job over her. *Which wouldn't have been a problem* if Mark weren't constantly saying that he'd be there for her, and failing. Mind you? Even though she knows he's lying to her-- AGAIN-- she agrees to let it go and move on. And also-- AGAIN-- not lying about being a superhero, but lying about being able to be there for her.
Exactly. Anyone with basic superhero knowledge would understand he's either not telling her the truth to keep her safe OR hasn't gotten to that level of trust YET.
This is especially stupid when you remember that this once happened with miles Morales in the comics only for it to turn out the girls father was Hydra and he was captured and tortured as a result.
@@marqusmedina5983 You know what's funny? In the video, I constantly reaffirm that the problem was never "He lied about his secret identity", but instead, "He lied about his ability to be a good partner".
And that's true. Amber doesn't complain about him lying about his identity. She complains about him lying to her for over half a year about being able to be there for her, instead of just being honest that he couldn't, and/or breaking up with her.
@@KaiserNeko That makes more sense. Still doesn't really work since this type of situation does happen in real life with responders but I can see what you meant
Damn
I missed KaiserNeko in Live Chat
"Lying about your availability"
Sure, so he's just supposed to reveal his secret identity to someone who he's only been dating for less than half a year.
You love it when you see justifying gaslighting your partner instead of talking with them like a sane adult.
That's not my point and you'd never know that because this video completely misrepresented my point. The problem was never, EVER that he kept his secret identity.
Mark was never going to be able to make time for Amber, because he would always have to prioritize being a hero. He told her that he'd be there for here, but he couldn't. And that was why Amber was angry: Because Mark was lying about being able to commit. Not about *why* he couldn't commit. And even when she tried to break up with him over it, he doubled down and said he'd get better, instead of accepting that he *could not* eat his cake but keep it too.
I say this very explicitly in the video. I go into painstaking detail and obnoxious lengths to make that point clear.
And yet people still either didn't listen or willfully misinterpreted me.
"You love to see people justifying galighting."
The only thing I ever said was that she just justified in exploding at him for lying *but was wrong* in how she did it. She shouldn't have pulled that shit on him at the college and it's the writers messing up.
And if the only problem people had with her was that this conversation wouldn't even be happening.
@KaiserNeko Thing is, Mark gets a pass because he's completely new to the hero thing. He has no idea what he's doing, he was never given proper mentoring. If he had someone to tell him how he should handle relationships, and then did all this, Amber would be more justified. And I won't forgive her worrying about the soup kitchen and having the audacity to be mad at Matk when she thought he got hit by a bus, before finding out the truth. It's just not cool.
@@CatLeone2003 Mark DOES get a bit of a pass, because he IS new to it. It's why I never lambasted Mark or said he was a bad guy. But it was *six months* of that bullshit. She even tried to break up with him in the middle of it, but he doubled down and told her that he'd do better. She literally tried to do the right thing and he just lied more to get her to stay with him.
And yeah, she was still frustrated after she found out about the "bus" accident, but she also knew he was a hero at that point, and was tired of the BS. Rightfully so, as well. Because in that moment, what happened? He didn't show up... because he was doing hero work. At that point, she likely just felt even more frustrated, because once again Mark wouldn't just be honest. Not about his identity, but about his AVAILABILITY. And even then-- EVEN THEN-- she still gives him ANOTHER CHANCE.
@@KaiserNeko Amber said she knew for weeks. Pretty sure there was a lot more than some weeks between soup kitchen thing and the college campus stuff. I just can't side with Amber at all, dude. She was unreasonable. Mark made mistakes, he should apologize for them, then move on. Amber needs therapy on how to be a good partner.
@@KaiserNeko If Mark wasn't there to fight Battlebeast, more people would've been hurt. He's lucky Battlebeast stopped, but it could've been so much worse. Personally, I'd rather be grateful that my favorite superhero can go to the hospital, and me not be dead, than if he were to go to a soup kitchen and almost the entire city destroyed. The needs of the many outweigh the meaningless wants of the few. Show Amber doesn't even seem like the type to give a crap about the soup kitchen, I can't lie.
A simple fix would have been when Mark revealed he was Invincible, Amber should have been shocked, she starts making connections to all the "lame excuses" Mark had been making about why he was late/missing but then still have her still be mad at him. Why? Because she feels, in this heated moment, that he should have told her, she is not looking at the big picture of him believing he's protecting her. Add on to when she goes to see Mark after he got beat to a pulp by his dad and now she can admit to him she understands the kinds of danger he was looking to protect her from, but that she is willing to take that risk.
We have longbeach Griffey on our side. We won boys
Almost completely off-topic but since you used the opening stage theme in the video:
I FUCKING *LOVE* THE MEGA MAN X3 SOUNDTRACK.
0:17 Didn't expect Mauler to make appearance here. A suprise, but a welcome one.
I just realised the birds at 1:09 are not even animated.
Amber is the unfortunate unlucky girl that pulled the lotto for who gets to be the punching bag for everyone. Hell, she got done dirtier than all the superheroes and civilians that got killed in the show. She suffered the pain of having her whole character form the comic thrown into the 🗑️ and replaced with...yeah someone who everyone hates like no tomorrow. Honestly if she didn't have that happen to her, I bet Amber wouldn't be the most hated character..... probably, might be still some hate left over
I think if they had stuck to the original comic she would've been a loved character. She fits the part of the love interest subversion. I'm not sure what was the creative decision to make her a black sassy woman it's strange.
Only saving grace for Amber at that point, is if she actually never knew about Mark's secret identity, but simply said she did out of pettiness cause she was (understandably) angry at the moment....
Yet even so, I dont think it do much for her, because she simply hasnt been much of a likeable character overall, and the whole romance arc of the series fills like frustrating filler compared to all of the other way more interesting stuff going on.
KaiserNekko and whoever this Johny guy is are having a completely different conversation than the majority of fans and getting mad that people are stonewalling them.
Amber and Marks story messes up because the set up leading to the fight is that of the typical "partner gets mad at hero for not being there for them" shtick because thats what it was in the comics as far as im aware , and even though I DESPISE that trope, the writers wanting to subvert the trope to make Amber appear smarter by knowing before hand doesnt fix it, it makes her worse retroactively. its like trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle by smashing in a piece from a completely different puzzle.The writers didnt realize that her knowing would have a ripple effect, it was unintentional, which is why they put ALL of the blame onto Mark, which makes the audience reject her as hard as they did
MEANWHILE KaiserNekko and Johny are at the starting line arguing that a super-hero is "morally abhorant" for trying to be with someone they love while not being able to show every part of themeselves right away (which I disagree with, but regardless) Thats not what the show did, thats not what the show set up, and if it WAS what it wanted to do with Mark and Amber, they failed even worse than I thought. Season 2 Amber is the result of them trying to repair the damage they unwittingly did to Ambers character, not what they "planned to do from the start", to say anything else is cope, and no amount of KaiserNekko verbally fistfighting random commenters is gonna change that
That preview... I feel that pain. Going to watch this proper and comment again because apparently the Robot Overlords really like it when people comment. Starting with a MauLer sound byte no less... we're in for a treat. Very cultured.
This whole thing could've been avoided if they just stuck to the damn source material. But no, Amazon gotta Amazon.
And like others have said, the biggest issue is the lack of accountability for Amber. KaiserNeko can talk all he wants about what superheroes should do and what Mark should have done...okay fine, we all know Mark isn't innocent but NOBODY called out Amber's behavior.
The idea that it isn't her place to say anything is absolutely foolish and there is no way he would accept that behavior from someone in his actual life. KaiserNeko would be pretty upset if his husband...(or let's say boyfriend to make it less of a serious relationship) knew about a secret he was holding and never indicated to him that he knew something about it. Then to make it worse proceeds to gaslight him about it by pretending to act like a person who doesn't know the secret and is acting in a normal way (because they supposedly don't know) by admonishing him.
Amber lives in a world where superheroes and supervillains exist so she is completely aware of why Mark would choose to keep it a secret once she figured out it was him. A normal person would've went, "Oh he's trying to protect me but since I figured it out I should probably let him know. At least then he doesn't have to feel like he needs to keep a secret."
Then she has the nerve to come back into his life when he is at his lowest and compare him having is world and body completely shattered by his father to her being lied to by him and not one single person is like, "Uh...Amber, WTF?"
You can still hold Mark responsible for his actions while calling out Amber for her issues. And we all know if the roles were reversed and Amber was the superhero and Mark was the civilian boyfriend and he acted like she did (including flirting at the college campus) Kaiser and Johnny would not treating this the same. None of the people that defend her behavior would.
It's interesting because it's not until season 2 that it really occurred to her why Mark kept his identity a secret because for all of her toughness, she realized that she was nothing in front of Anissa. It's like "Oh...that's why he wanted to keep it a secret." It was just unfortunate that the most powerful beings in the universe already know who he is and therefore all of his loved ones are at risk.
0:24
I love it when Mauler shows up!
Having watched it proper now... I do kind of respect what KaoserNeko has built but at the same time. He is responsible for a few very common misconceptions in Dragon Ball in spite of just what an expert he is with it. I am also reminded when he talked about this but with Steven Universe of all things. It is maddening that he got something so simple wrong regarding Amber. I'm just as surprised Rex wasn't brought up in comparison since it is very similar in regards to what happened with Mark but in reverse. Nothing is misunderstood about Amber, the issue is simple: why the hell did she get off scot-free when others paid a heavy toll in their respective relationships? Mark didn't do a great job either but at least he TRIED to explain himself to take responsibility for a relationship he wasn't ready to have. I think Amber was intentionally written to be worse than her comic counterpart because they wanted to separate Mark from Amber much sooner or more smoothly than how it was handled in the comics. Even so... the fact there were no consequences to what she did but also not having the AWARENESS of just HOW dangerous it is for someone to be dating a superhero for either: becoming a liability OR completely losing them the very next day. The show doesn't explore this for Mark's relationship but we do see its effects with Debby. Though on a separate note, Johnny2Cellos has a reputation of getting stuff wrong on occasion as well as his political leaning but that's twitter stuff which sometimes gets in his videos which is why I turned off watching his stuff.
Fun video, if a bit painful. I hope this helps reach more people.
The fact that Amber in the comics is actually a pretty nice girl, she and Mark split up evenly and amicably, and there’s NO blow up over the secret identity like it’s basically shoved in Marks face here, is just sad. Like it’s not just the race swap, they completely DELETED her characteristics and personality to make whatever the show chose to put out. Also she DIDNT know he was a superhero, and thought he was a drug dealer since he had a pager for Cecil to communicate with him, so she was pretty relieved he was a hero and stayed by his side roughly till about the end of S2 in the plot, pops up a bit more, then everything is firmly centralized around Eve.
...And then Eve acts almost with the same reasoning as Amber in the tv series, despite knowing Mark identity from the start.
I swear, Kirkman lost the plot somewhere around 2016-2018 or so.
I don't think Kaiserneko is contradicting himself. I think he's saying that superheroes shouldn't have relationships at all. Which is arguably even worse.
I think that starting a relationship with someone you can't be honest about with your availability and personal safety is a bad idea, and puts the other person under a lot of stress and turmoil. It's made worse when villains (as has been shown in MANY, MANY COMICS) have targeted their loved ones, EVEN WHEN those loved ones didn't even know the hero's identity.
Like, if you look at romance in comics? It actually paints a rather vivid picture that superheroes dating civvies is actually pretty morally questionable. Lois Lane at least knew what the deal with Clark was before they got together.
@KaiserNeko So, are you saying that super heroes should be alone forever until they inevitably break and go insane?
@@serpentinious7745 Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. /s
C'mon man, don't do that. There's *obviously* a middleground between "inherently unhealthy relationships that put people's lives at risk" and "being along forever until they inevitably break and go insane." And some superhero stories DO explore that, and how to make that work. Hell, Debra (Mark's mom) was able to work with Omni-Man being a hero. They made it work... until Nolan pulled his shit.
But so much of that nuance in kind of flattened by this general audience acceptance that "Superheroes have secret identities, so it's okay that they lie to their partners!"
@KaiserNeko Now you _are_ contradicting yourself in exactly the way Kaiser Shonen said. 😑
@serpentinious7745 How. Fucking explain.
"You shouldn't start a romantic relationship where you cannot be honest about your availability" =/= "You should die alone", Jesus christ.
It's a testament to the quality of the source material that IN SPITE of what the animation did to Amber, the show still manages to be 8/10.
Because everything that gets within 6 minutes of Amber is a giant argument in bad faith, wrapped around a core of gaslighting, stuffed in a political messaging suppository fashioned from barbed wire.
All the other side characters were great. Even what they did to Mark's best friend (they cut about half his body mass and raised his voice four octaves) still left a generally likeable, relatable character.
Amber was great in the comic. Everything about her in the animation is awful. She became genuinely unlikeable.
the correct take: mark was wrong for hiding his superhero nature from her because it endangers her, and he should've showed her his true self from the beginning or a bit after to fully inform her of who he is. amber was wrong for learning about this and not confronting mark about it, instead using it as an excuse to build up resentment towards him.
Pretty much. Though, it's hard to say keeping the identity secret makes it any more dangerous, and arguably makes it less so
Should Mark tell every girl he goes out with he's invincible
You're not obligated to tell someone your inner most secrets when you start a relationship.
It doesn't really matter now that Mark and Amber are seemingly broken up for good. I can't wait for Season Three.
Literally at 5:45 i got an add about markiplier talking about mental health & I thought it was such a smooth transition to the Idiocracy that was about to be unfolded i didn’t realize it was an add lmao
The point about superheroes dating people that are not super powered is kinda interesting. It is a separate point on its own that could be interesting to talk about.
It probably didn't help that kaiser was being terribly passive aggressive to peoples comments on that video as well that disagreed with their narrative theyve set up.
When I saw people comparing my adventures with super man Lois to amber saying Lois was worse?!? I was ready to just lose my mind
Haven't completed the superman show yet, but I kinda need something answered.
Spoilers for anyone that hasn't seen the scene.
What's the context of the scene of Lois jumping for Clark to save her? Don't know the context but that was a dick move from her part tbh. Maybe she makes sense in context but just that scene alone was weird.
Also, imo, Lois in all her appearences so far is kinda just an annoying journalist. So if you like the trope of the brave girl that does everything to know the truth, it's fine, but it can get really tiring fast. In this interpretation, she's kinda just a generic quirky tomboy girl (though the other characters aren't better considering where I am so far they're all stereotypes). So maybe the writing picks up, but it's kinda just a generic light hearted anime-like show for now.
@@rand0md00d3 Honestly? Daddy issues
It's not a shock hearing this from KaiserNeko, whom I love by the way, but the end of their Hellsing abridged gave me that vibe. The line saying some guy was a bad boyfriend because he said he'd support his girlfriend whether she chose to go to college or not. Came off as justifying bad behaviour and making excuses for it. I know it was meant as a joke but the scene is showing Alucard having to become a better person so that line is shown to be what a good person would say.
Amber felt like a pointless character JUST to piss people off...
I don't really care ab the race swap, honestly. Amber in the comics was better for Mark. However, she was kinda bland. Them changing her design was pretty refreshing ngl. But her personality was worse somehow. Even tho Amber in the comics kinda had the personality of a 2x4 plank of wood, she wasn't overly annoying and was even understanding of Mark's whole 'superhero love' deal. But every time I saw Amber in the show, I just rolled my eyes bc I knew she was gonna chew Mark out for the dumbest reason. I literally bought all of the Compendiums for the comics just so I could compare the two iterations. When Amber and Mark broke up in the comics, it was honestly a lil sad. But in the show's version? I was as happy as can be bc that meant Mark was closer to getting with Eve.
Tl;Dr: The problem isn't the race-swap. It's just the writers making her insufferable.
The fact she KNEW who Invincible was and then still treated mark like the scum of the earth is crazy. Amber just needs to stfu because you cant get mad at your boyfriend for literally saving the world. If i had a boyfriend or girlfriend who had a super hero alter ego i would not mind because I would much rather have them be a superhero rather than a super villian AND if they weren't there being a super hero then the planet would be mf dead
Heard a "Long Man" reference in the first 40 seconds
This is gonna be good~
I mean amber is accurate to modern dating thats for sure.
Big props to Kaiser Neko for actually jumping into this comment section to defend his points directly, and by that I mean not only leaving a comment correcting some of the vid's contradictions but actually directly replying to multiple other commenters. A lot of creators don't do that (and reasonably so) but he's confident enough about the points that he actually made (not to mention points that were misrepresented) that he's willing to go to bat for them to this extent.
11 hours later and he is still going back and forth with people
The frustrating this is, people are seeing KS's version of what I said, and not the full thing in context. So people are responding to my take without full context, assuming WRONG SHIT ABOUT MY POSITION. WHICH IS GREAT. I LOVE THIS. SUPER GLAD.
@@KaiserNeko, did you post a credible source of people saying that Mark was not wrong. If you didn't, then your entire argument is mute. You can't say that people said something, when you don't have evidence of it. I love your work dude, like KS does, but you're wrong.
@@ChiefShibaInuoh neat notice how I never said "People say Mark did nothing wrong", but instead said "People hate Amber *way more* for her response to that behavior, and I think it's BS"
See you're also misrepresenting my point.
@@KaiserNeko you know for someone who used to be known for something being this desperate for attention is just pathetic
Me first seeing the video title: "I feel like we've been here before, have we been here before?"
Seriously though, maybe I'd need to rewatch the video to be certain, but I don't really have anything new to add to the conversation. Well, aside from one thing: when you mentioned the comparison of Omni-Man's actions and Amber's, specifically the writing surrounding them.
If we weren't given much depth and if the writing had been overall terrible, I feel everyone would be harping on Omni-Man more than Amber. I'd bring in SW as an example (specifically Anakin in the prequels and Kylo in the sequels), but it'd be more relevant to bring up Snyder's Batman and Superman. Both are doing stupid things for reasons that are not well-explored and in fact are contradictory at times. And guess what? They, and their actions (e.g. Superman killing Zod, Batman branding criminals, Batman and Superman constantly arguing and bickering, etc.), have been *LAMBASTED.*
Mauler reference, 10/10
IF she knew he was a super hero and which one. Then she should have understood the assignment. It is fully known by the world at that point that the Guardians of the globe just got merked. She sees what villains are willing to do to the heroes as well as civilians in general. Hell, there are people I would not trust to tell something minor that I do not want most to know about without them blabbing it to the world. When you have a secret identity you need to be very VERY careful with who you trust about this secret. For if they tell anyone and it gets known to the wrong person then you have effectively screwed them and yourself and their loved ones.
0:20 died laughing and almost fell out of my chair from leaning so for back. The sound me made hahahahaahhaha!
Not only race swapped but completely aggressive and obnoxious. W Hatred. She sucks as a character
I feel like both sides were in the wrong, but for different reasons. Mark was wrong for ditching her and not explaining why and only coming clean when confronted. However, i feel Amber was wrong for not just breaking it off with him and holding onto the resentment. She broke up with him twice. She had every right to break up with him if it wasn't working. At the end of the day, the relationship was not compatible.
I think KaiserNeko is awesome. He bares his whole soul on every topic he's passionate about. Even if I don't agree with his specific take that superheroes shouldn't start relationships with civilians, I still respect that he refuses to be misrepresented.
But damn, I remember when KaiserNeko brought this up on the FourStarBento podcast with Lani. We were all just as flabbergasted about his opinion then as we are now.
That said, I'm an adult. I disagree with KaiserNeko on Amber from Invincible, but this is ONE thing. Our different opinions on this ONE thing (a piece of fiction, no less) will not carry over to pretty much any other things. I hope everyone else can do the same. Good video, Kaiser Shounen
Hey, if you think this is annoying you should check out Pillar Of Garbages’ video on the Amber reveal. Get this, he actually says that the scene is fine because it portrays both Mark and Amber as flawed.
No, it doesn’t! It’s clearly presented as a hard lesson that Mark needs to accept, completely one sided. Even if it was portraying Amber as flawed, that’s a pretty bad flaw for a character to have.
All the characters dump on him remorselessly.
@ Exactly! If it was meant to present both sides as flawed the characters would’ve said Mark shouldn’t have dragged her on, but also called out Amber for reacting the way she did.
@@insectostrich4407 but they don’t do that, which sucks.
@@thomasraines1396 Yes. Which is why it baffles me when TH-camrs like Pillar just say stuff like this. It’s not my opinion either, it’s just common sense: she was written poorly and if someone acted similar to that in real life she would, or should, be labelled as a toxic girlfriend.
@@insectostrich4407 yeah. Another thing I feel is pretty messed up is after the “fight” with Nolan, she comes back to Mark and claims “looks like I wasn’t the only one being lied to” and just comes off as really insensitive. Mark - along with everyone else - was lied to for over a decade about the greatest hero being apart of a race of space tyrants sent to earth explicitly to help the conquering of the planet easier. Amber was lied to for a couple months and that window is lessened somewhat by the fact she figured out sometime before Mark “revealed” his secret.
Authors rewrote and blackwashed character, only to make them awful. Peak Kirkman in 2020+ years.
There were a couple other Johnny videos I had issues with. Overall his stuff on South Park is pretty good, but I think he did similar videos when it came to Wendy and Tolkein.
Freakazoid:
Cosgrove: C'mon Freakazoid everyone knows you're Dexter Douglas.
Steph: Wait you're Dexter Douglas?
Freakazoid: Cosgrove why'd you tell her?
Cosgrove: Isn't she your girlfriend?
Freakazoid: Of course I didn't tell her!
Steph: How come Cosgrove knew?
Freakazoid: He wasn't supposed to tell anyone!
The Kaiser neco person would have to be making the argument that not telling someone your secret identity who you're dating is A bad thing but it is okay to do that bad thing in that scenario. But that's not what he argued though when when people label things as bad or morally wrong. We are saying that you should do the opposite because people on average don't advocate for people to do bad things.
When you tell someone or you say something is wrong to do, you are advocating for the opposite. At the very least, an average person is going to assume you're advocating for the opposite. Like if I say stealing is wrong, a normal person isn't going to assume that I am advocating for stealing. They're going to assume I'm advocating against it.
This is the stuff kaiser argues about in 2024. This argument has been done and dusted for years and i dont understand why people are still bringing it up. We all know she was in the wrong and the reason why is because it was a wierd inesthetic choice by the writers indulging in their petty power fantasy and thought they could get away with it. Which is why her character did a 180 in season 2. Mark did nothing wrong. In fact this whole series is about mark being fucked over emotionally, mentally and....well..spoilers quite physically. Again kaiser seems like a decent person but this isnt the first bad take hes had over the years and it probubly wont be the last. Most likely its because of his signifigant other and the friends he keeps around him. People usually have wierd takes and act off in order to appease or impress the people around them. You can easily define a person by the company they keep.
"Mark did nothing wrong" dude even the most popular Amber haters don't think that's true
@@KaiserNeko just admit you defend amber because you just like her character. It's a bias. No shame in admiting that. It's semantics at this point. You can appeal to the fact that it's irresponsible for Mark to date when he's a super hero all you want but that will never be strong enough to convince people that it matters. It's just a nit pick about a decision a teenager made and it wasn't even that agregious enough to hold accountable for.
@@greeneyedassassin197
No, he did do something wrong. It's just understandable from his perspective of being a rookie superhero and an otherwise normal high schooler trying to balance both lives and everything that comes with them. What she did was WORSE though given she knew his secret since before the cyborg attack, should understand the gravity of such a secret given how smart she's portrayed as, and should come forward to him about it to take the burden off his back given how she's portrayed as wanting to help others. Her choosing to instead emotionally screw with him because he, for a MUCH better reason, did that to her, and then come back to him acting like what he did to her is even remotely comparable to what Omniman did to him is out of character and makes her look like a hypocritical jackass.
@@espurrseyes42 pretty much. My thing is it's telling the only reason he tries to defend her is that he's obsessed with diversity and is reaching way to hard to defend a character that adds literally nothing to the story. Even in the comics. she could not exist and it wouldn't affect the story at all. It's also a red flag that kaiser seems to not have any other problem with the series and chooses to specifically Lazer focus on this topic. It's bias and 99% of people can see that.
@@greeneyedassassin197 Naw, bro. "Mark did nothing wrong" is absolutely ridiculous. He fucked up for 6 months. He's not a bad person for it, he was a teenager who acted like a selfish jackass because he couldn't accept that he couldn't juggle his responsibilities, but he learned and grew.
But "did nothing wrong" is dumb as hell, and he did need to be held accountable for leading someone else on for half a year.
I didn’t expect the mauler reference and it was golden
Am I the only one that hated most of the characters in the show?
For one reason or another they just made me mad 💀
Why do you hate most of the characters in this show? And which ones do you hate in particular?
Most of them are just selfish jerks. There's plenty of positive characterization though. Let's consider:
1) Cid, who does all kinds of shady shit to protect the world. He's actually a really interesting, sympathetic character to me.
2) Robot man, who does extremely shady shit for sympathetic but ultimately selfish reasons, and then seems to forget he's an inventor and leaves his clever approach to problems in the trash along with his old body.
3) Immortal, who spends most of the first season dead.
4) The Amazon? Knockoff wonder woman, who gets a couple lines of dialogue that make her seem like a cool person and then she dies. Similar for the rest of the original guardians.
5) Atom Eve, who is just nice but not interesting for most of season 1 and also off doing her own thing rather than being an example for the new guardians to rally around
6) Villains.
7) Then the other regular human characters, who are sorta interesting but ultimately have very little agency in conflicts of this scale.
8) Mark, who is a clueless good-boy everyman/blank slate without much in the way of unique personality.
Basically, most of the superheroes that the story revolves around are either
a) given fewer redeeming qualities than Omni Man except for being "good guys", chew up screen time with their edgy, selfish BS, or
b) generic tropes in fancy costumes that don't give you much to connect to.
@@Roukle and which invincible character are jerks in particular?
Because they're all sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo very stupid.
@@samflood5631 DupliKate, Explosion guy, and Monster girl, for exaomple. (her attitude is understandable, but grating).
The central premise seems to be that superheroism wears people down and makes them arrogant, jaded jerks, but that's a problem for... at least 3 reasons.
1) the show goes to far into making its major characters so offputting up front, so you have to deal with their baggage before you get any real reason to care about them or be sympathetic to their problems.
2) This is compounded by the effective fake-out where it sets up characters that you start to care about only to immediately kill them off, which is very dramatic but comes at the cost of sabotaging the audience investment
3) the 'good' superheroes Atom Eve and Invincible don't have personalities apart from being 'nice', so you don't really have effective foils for the other characters.
13:17 Well, you could just date as a superhero, while keeping civilian identity secret. That way the girl knows that she's getting into (especially if superheroes are a known part of life) and is aware that you're keeping some things secret from her.
I am indifferent towards Amber (focusing on doomed relationship so much was a mistake) but can see where her anger is coming from: being lied to and kept in the dark is unpleasant, even if you know everything and can empathize with the cause.
the first 10 seconds had me rolling
Johnny 2 Cellos is a prime example of how political brain rot destroys commentary. Kaiser hasn't been relevant since DBZ Abridged ended like a decade ago.
There is nothing morally grey about this, she gets mad at her superhero boyfriend for doing his job when she wants attention, she would rather be upset with Mark and indirectly disregard the potential thousands of people out there he could be saving, she is self centered and inconsiderate to anyone else when keeping the truth she already knew, simple as that. (At least In Season 1 )
First video of yours i have seen and i come in on a MauLer audio 😂
Of course Kaiser simps for shitty writing I expect nothing less from the guys who fucked up like 3 different anime fandoms.
What are the other two?
@espurrseyes42 Hellsing DBZ and AoT
MAULER MENTIONED!!! WHAT THE HELL IS A SHORT VIDEO!?!?
I guess its too much to ask the content creators we like to be chill, cool, based, and not ideologically and politically driven. I miss the old tfs lol
0:16
Bro died😂
Ive gotten to the point where id rather see media debate streams than video essays cuz they just seem to invite strawman and goal post pushing. Like i would love to see kaiser neko actually have in person(for lack of a better word) pushback for some of his takes.
Hey. Go ahead. Push back, I'm right here dude.
@@KaiserNeko ok main question is there crucial context missing from your segment in this video if so what is it. Also can you acknowledge that it's (at least possible) to see your superhero relationship argument as id guess we'd call it a lose/lose situation as you imply you shouldn't date if you aren't going to tell someone your a superhero but most would agree most people wouldn't give that information to just anybody. Effectively telling superheros to never date.
@@fiyahman1000 My entire point was this:
Romantic relationships (and to a certain extent, even PLATONIC relationships) between superheroes and civilians are complicated and morally dubious. When superheroes start relationships with civilians, there's two major issues up front:
1. Heroes cannot be openly honest about their secret identities (and probably shouldn't be) because it puts both them and the people they're dating in danger. Thus, heroes cannot be honest about their **priorities.** If they're being heroes and doing the right thing, they'll have to prioritize the job. Which either means making promises they can't keep or being unreliable partners. The first one is unfair and the second one is likely unsustainable.
2. Even if these heroes keep their secret from their partners, what happens when villains find out *another way*? They will target the people closest to those heroes. Like Green Goblin did in the original Spider-Man comic, or like how Anissa did in Invincible Season 2. Now, at least in Invincible S2, Amber actually knew and already committed to Mark. So when they broke up? It made sense. That was too much for her to handle, and the relationship was already rocky because, like I said before, it was unsustainable for Mark who was doing the right thing and prioritizing the job.
All these things? I talked about *in the the video.* But KS misrepresents what I said, and says I'm contradicting myself. Which is totally BS. I was very clear, very in depth about my entire point. I even say, "Lois Lane was actually into Superman before they got together; meaning, she was ride or die with his lifestyle from the words, "Up, up, and away!"
He also says we're "vague posting about hypothetical a**holes". But just looking at the comment section of the original video or at any/every interaction I've had about Amber on Twitter, or DerekFDB video along with his stupid, inaccurate, rage bait "SOUP KITCHENS > SAVING PEOPLE" thumbnail, and you can find DROVES of people making the arguments I'm disagreeing with, I've been having these conversations with people for years. Hell, you can even see some of those arguments IN THIS VERY COMMENT SECTION.
tl;dr I never made the argument that he should have been open about his secret identity, only that his (understandable) inability to do so inherently hurt their relationship, and he needed to stop lying about his ability to commit. Also, I didn't "make up" people and/or arguments to be mad at, that's blatantly false.
No, just no because the "on the spot" facility exist and just makes everything worse like 1000 times worse
14:43 most ppl forget that so not surprised lol
I’m a patreon sub and I agree with this vidwo
Gotta defend Kaiser here: There's no contradiction. He's not saying it's bad when heroes don't expose their identities to their partner in response to strawman that says "So you're saying heroes should expose their identities to their partner". He's saying the hero shouldn't have gotten themselves into this position in the first place.
"You're saying heroes should reveal their identities to their partner?"
"No, I'm saying heroes shouldn't have partners they know they can't be honest with in the first place. *It's morally reprehensible to START a relationship with someone you can't be honest with.* "
THANK YOU, GOOD LORD.
I say this THROUGHOUT THE VIDEO, too. But does KS show that? NOPE. He cuts out one part, plays it out of context, then argues with a take I did not make.
@@KaiserNeko I can see how someone might've missed the nuance, but that's akin to saying superheroes can't have relationships unless the relationship has already developed enough that they can trust the other person with life or death secrets. Chicken-egg conundrum.
Most people don't have life or death secrets, but they do have secrets, and there comes a point where they should be shared.
Amber doesn't get a pass, because she's keeping a secret as well: she knows. That secret is far less important than Mark's secret, but she expects him to figure out the Gordian knot ON HIS OWN while having the weight of the world dumped on his shoulders, while she contributes NOTHING to resolving the situation and dumps all the blame on him.
@@KaiserNeko Don't they also bring this up in the show? IIRC, Eve even says "This is why you should only date other superheroes" to just kind of show how much drama it brings. Granted Mark points out Rex and just kind of brushes past it, but still.
@@Roukle I don't know what it is about me, but I don't blame her for not telling Mark she knew. To me, that was just her giving him the room to be honest, instead of forcing him to come clean. Is it strange that, that makes sense to me? Maybe because it happened to me in the past with someone else, and it... just made sense then too. I dunno.
But when it comes to Amber and Mark, like, I said, nobody ever, EVER says that he should've told her his secret. Only that he needed to stop making promises he couldn't keep. And if that meant they couldn't date? Then... well, I think that's just the unfortunate reality.
@@blade1hunter100 I think they're right, tbh. I mean, Lois Lane at least was into Superman before she found out he was Clark. So at least there, she knew what he was about before they ever committed.
Not about the video, but the command mission music puts a smile on my face
yeah that seems like something kaiser neko would agree with. love his work but...man.
Bro, at least watch the video we made and not this totally out of pocket video that completely misrepresents my points.
I feel like you may have misunderstand Kaiserneko argument. The way I understand it is: Superheroes should date people who already know about their superhero life and can make informed choise. He doesn't want them to reveal it to "random person they started dating", but instead to get to know someone, establish that they are trustworthy, share your secret and only then start romantic relationship. That way it is not contradiction, but of course i'm not Kaiserneko so it's just my understanding
That is even worse as an idea! You effectively say to start a relationship without starting one, then reveal a secret that only the closest people ought to know and finaly ask for a romantic relationship?!
1. Pretty sure that is not how romantic relationships work.
2. That sounds like emotional blackmailing since you effectively put that person on the spot with such a plan.
3. The point is to get a relationship with the person rather than the hero, this seems like wanting to get one with the hero.
In short a hero cannot have a relationship with a civilian period and can only date other heroes unless he does not have a secret identity.
Hell if you think about it considering how it works that is the case for every relationship!!!
Let alone romantic ones, friends would also be part of this. The idea that you would treat everyone with that level of absurd respect is assinine.
Didn’t she cheat on him twice in the comics?
4:24 i miss Francis of the filth
Amber was a mistake but they needed her there forwhat comes later. I guess they pisged all the woke crap into one place to minimize the damage
It's actually the opposite. In the comics, Amber didn't know Mark was Invincible until he told her and she was shocked, but because they racewapped her they couldn't have her not know because that would imply she had some flaw that prevented her from figuring out marks identity.
cartoonshi got quoted okay then
Never watched the show, but this will be interesting.
12:02 🤦😂
He does make this argument though. And he's objectively wrong.
that's gonna be the worst defense video I've seen.
Oh My God that beginning XD!
Amber the worst part of that show because of the needles changes I swear were Amazon mandates
Okay, video aside, I might as well give my own take on the whole Amber and her and Mark’s relationship dilemma no one asked for.
Personally, I think both sides are at fault here. Mark for jumping into a relationship without maintaining and balancing that and the hero business all that well with instances of him being dishonest and Amber for testing his honesty and patience, knowing full well about his secret identity for a good about a time before giving him grief about it. (Plus, I’m not a fan of how the fact that the show itself says Mark was completely at fault of the whole thing. Feels one sided imo.)
And while I agree that she has gotten a lot better and more understanding in the next season, it wasn’t enough for me to care about her completely (Even more so considering that Spoilers: The two broken up in the later half)
So yeah in conclusion, I don’t hate Amber nor do I think she’s completely at fault per say, I just don’t care about her as much as everyone here on the internet does, whether they hate or love her
Both sides are absolutely at fault. Mark for lying about his ability to commit (NOT about his identity) and Amber for acting like she did at the college. If she wanted to explode at him for dragging her along for over half a year, she had the right to... in private, making that actual point, and not hiding it behind a facade of him running away when the cyborgs showed up. That shit was weird.
@@KaiserNeko Yeah, I agree. Maybe by having their conversation in private, Amber wouldn’t be getting as much hate as she (still) does now. But it is what it is
12:36 Complete mindbreak.
Absolutely goofy ahh amlogic😂
In the video, I make it very clear that the problem is superheroes dating civilians *in the first place*.
That whole part of the video is an exploration of expectations and commitments being effected and denied because of the expectations of superhero life.
There is no contradiction. KS just showed the clip out of context and made an argument I DID NOT MAKE.
Kaiser vs Kaiser... NYUK NYUK NYUK NYUK NYUK NYUK
KaiserNeko has bad takes
Oh definitely, KN is in the comments right now trying to defend his take😂😂
@@Mac-eo4bcIs he doing a good job ?
@@Mac-eo4bcBecause this video completely misrepresented my points
@@malikpierre-louis3343 Nah. Bro might be squabbling(fair enough), but just like I thought.... He's contradicting himself.
@@KaiserNekosomewhat true, but honestly your points are still pretty bad in regards to the basis against mark/ in favour of amber. To be fair, you do say both are in the wrong, but you seem to either ignore the nuance or just miss it in the first place. Simply, one was petty and vindictive over an unwilling failure of their partner, the other was arrogant but genuinely well meaning, and had actual objectively higher responsibilities to prioritise, whilst not knowing that their actions were an issue, nor with any intent to break any promises, yet the one who was objectively malicious is supposed to be seen as the one in the right over the arrogant screw up that objectively did a better thing, both in terms of responsibilities, and in comparison to the other person. I don't think I can summarise the opposing view any more clearly than that. Both were deceptive, both were quite arrogant, and both screwed up, but only one faced any consequences, and was also painted as solely in the wrong, thus people got especially hostile towards that character, not to mention any plausible deniability for said characters actions and anger were destroyed, yet the one who reasonably has it was portrayed as the sole wrongdoer. Do you really not get why people hate amber over mark?