3D PRINTS at LOW temperatures - How PLA, PETG, ABS, PA & PC perform at -20°C! (surprising results!)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 พ.ค. 2024
- I cooled down the most common 3D printing materials to freezing temperatures and tested their static strength and impact performance!
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It's been a while, but your videos keep getting better and better!
Kudos!
Finally a good and full video about material properties in the cold, this question was bothering me for much time. Big thanks from south-west of Russia with -30(33) days in winter!
I love how use use all the mechanical engineering aspects behind the testing. Great video keep up the good work!
Great content with interesting results!
Loved the safety warning! 😃
Hi Stephen,
I work in a warehouse with -30C. The most annoying thing in this temperature is the constant build-up of the static electricity from conveying all the plastic trays. (I think they are ABS). One time my arm almost came off (not really but it went full 180 degree and almost dislocated my shoulder blade) due to the extremely high voltage that was built up in the conveyor system.
As for brittleness, its a little bit more brittle but not a huge deal.
Fantastic insight. It's been very cold (for us) here too, so very timely experiments.
I expected everything to become much more brittle than they did, very surprising.
@David van Ecke
I was surprised at the small magnitude of change in brittleness. And I was surprised how well PLA did in strength compared to nylon.
It would have been nice to have % shrinkage/expansion with temperature change, if measurable.
Another useful information video. Thank you!
Thanks for the analysis!
Nicely done! Thank you.
i use parts of PLA alot of times at -80ºC and they are very resistant, also have some experience with flex materials, those as expected become very britle
Really really well done video! Thanks!
Thanks. Now I know what material to use to fix the inner door of my freezer.
Hehe, German humour at 4:55 :).
Really loved this video. I like the scientific approach and how you even check the real temperature before testing. Liked and subscribed ;).
GREAT !!! Need more such videos!
Great video! I tried looking through your library to find similar results but at higher temperatures. More specifically, I want to compare material properties in winter/spring/summer temperatures expected inside a vehicle for PETG; and if CF-PETG offers better stability/predictability than regular petg.
Very nice video stefan!
I've 3dprinted my own luggage tags, and have recognized that very cold temps may be a more significant issue for travelers than you might expect initially. Modern jets travel at altitudes where the ambient temperature may be from -20 in the summer to -60, or significantly lower during the winter at northern (and southern) latitudes. Not all luggage bays on aircraft are heated and pressurized, (though that's becoming much less of an issue for modern jets) so it may be useful to know what the characteristics of the various plastics are when cooled to the temperatures of dry ice.
I do suspect that it will be more of what you observed.
An added question would be what are the long term effects of cooling and warming these materials to these temperatures and 'room temperature' through several cycles. There is anecdotal evidence that taking some metals down to liquid nitrogen temperatures, and slowly bringing them back up to room temperature over a week or so, can improve various performance characteristics. I'm not expecting to see such results in PLA, but it might be an interesting experiment, even if the result is, not so much.
Wonderful information. Is this true for metallic filaments with PLA or ABS mixed in?
That's interesting, do you consider doing similar test with flexible filaments?
Thank you I also couldn't find info on low temperature
Your test is really great!
The best I have ever seen because you don`t test
horizontally and vertically. Your hook test is much better!
The elongation at break would be very interesting.
This would give us a idea of the flexibility of the materials.
The same cold that hit Germany hit us as well. We got around -20°C here as well. I have an unheated garage I have my machines in, however temparatures dropped only to about -7°C inside. What I do to deal with these temparatures is;
You gotta have your printer eclosed and if possible isolated. I made a simple crate 60x60 cm for my prusa with front plexiglass door (7mm) and the rest 18 mm plywood, which is isolated with 4 cm styrodur. This way ambient temparature inside the box gets to roughly 25°C when printing with heatbed at 60°C for a while.
As far as it goes for filament - for that I have a separated box (showcase box) with front glass door. This also has 5 sides isolated with styrodur + the front face isolation is removable. Inside I have a washing machine heater hooked limited to a 50W supply, which heats up inside of the showcase box to 35°C on the bottom and around 45°C at top (if I have isolation on the door, otherise I get to 10°C less). At the top I have a hole for moisture dissipation, this way I get to 5-20% humidity inside. I can store 10 filament spools inside, usually the ones I'm about to use for my projects. Both boxes are connected with a "coupler" tube I printed, which has a telfon tube running through it. I had problems with coupler having too big hole, this way when I lifted Z axis, filament got all messed up inside showcase box - went off spool because of backlash and so on, so the teflon tube solved this problem. Oh yeah, there's a spool roller inside the showcase box, which works perfectly for this.
Take care
i had a pla bracket for my bike light that lasted 2 winters before i lost it. along with a pinwheel thing that sat on my front porch for 2 winters before the wood stick broke.
interesting subject and nice video
do you use the flir phone-attachment or is it a stand alone unit
I use the phone attached: geni.us/A4E4
Works okay so far, but the resolution is not the best unfortunately.
Good to know. A friend asked me to print some mounting brackets for his beer fridge, and was struggling to find any information about low temperature durability (much easier to find information about maximum temperatures, lol)
Very interesting. What results do you think you would get with annealed PLA
2:14 What is that material!? It's such a wonderful translucent green...
Very interesting result, thanks for sharing.
Another useful test would be whether these materials get weaker after being exposed to freezing and warm weather repeatedly. For example after a freezing cold night, then warmer day, repeat 7 times, will they weaken?
Great test, do you have any test about optimal room temperature for printing?
Your approach to these videos is fast making yours my favourite 3D printing channel. Kudos.
Angus, Thomas, and 3DPN, are better starts, since they are doing what he is doing, but better and sooner.
Thomas yes, Angus I could make an argument for perhaps, but 3DPN? Not in the same league.
Whoa. Interested in printing for ski boot parts, among other things, and hadn’t seen much about low temp behavior. Awesome work!
Thank you!
You should definitely try actually printing in -20c
I think that this is not possible, this might destroy the electronics due to mosfet overload.
The mainboards of 3D printers are not protected to an overload. Suppose Your nozzle can reach max 250° but at -20 (meaning 38° difference) then only effect is that the mosfet will heat up and they usual not cooled. Note if You have to print at 230° then it will destroy the board and the nozzle heating too. The bed, if limited to 100° is even more a problem since the area is much bigger, this mosfet is usual bigger cause an heated bed is a very energy consuming device. Suppose bed 80°, so in reality must warm the plate to 118 °C so heated bed destroyed.
Printing at -20 wouldn’t be possible with stock firmware, almost all 3d printers shut off if the thermistors for the hotend or bed read under 5 degrees C
@@Hankbob_Hillpants well u can preheat with a hairdryer for example
@@stefaancodde6578it would not kill anything, electronics has no issues at -20C. Even the standard hotend with a silicone sock can reach 240C at this temperature delta. The bed will struggle to reach 70-80C on most printers and many matrials will warp and crack like ABS
I live in Lindsay ontario and this winter the air is super moist! Feels like I need to put my spools in the oven before I use them each time! I’m going to build a box the spool sits in and extruded from
So what is the best . for freezer? .. ABS? with 100% infill? or PLA with 100 infill?
Test printing in a cold environment - this could give interesting in strength and quality results.
We had some bad experience with cold and 3d prints last week, me and my friends were prearing pieces for our cosplays and one of them is a fantasy spear made of 4 parts glued together with an aluminum tube inside. at around 1ºC on the street one of the joints snaped open due to contraction of the material, and as soon as we got onto de metro (with usually over 15ºc) the gap left there just closed as the material expanded
how much was what ever FLIR u used? how accurate as well?
I've had several PLA parts outside in the -40 Ottawa, Canada weather some for many years and they are holding up well. This winter i attached some printed pla to the bottom of my car as a test so it has low temperature and lots of road salt/sand to deal with.
How did this test go? Interested as I was wondering if I should test printing some cold air blockers for my car's grille.
Yeah what’s the outcome mann
I'm an hour South on the US side of the St. Lawrence Good to know
I live in Toronto and I printed hooks out of pla to put along my fence and hold up wires. It's been almost 2 years now and they're holding up great(they get snowed on and everything)
I like the sodium chloride joke lol
Every couple of months I click on this video thinking it's about printing at low temperatures during Winter.
My memory is terrible...it takes a few minutes to realize I've already seen this video, and no it's not about what I thought it was.
Hello from Santa Clara, CA!
Great video, very thorough.
I want to make custom ice trays and was looking into what material works best.
I'm sorry. Did you pick PLA or ABS?
@@gledger1963 I was thinking of PETG (food safe) or TPU, haven't made any yet
I see you have a MK4 Golf. 2.0? 2001? Great video! Was very curious how they performed in low temps and this answered pretty much every question I had. Thanks!
1.4, 2001 ;-) not the fastest to be honest. Need to get rid of it this spring, because it's causing too much trouble now.
I'm here looking for the culprit of failing parts. I am curious about what the effects are of cooling and then warming PLA. Could going from extreme cold to room temperature introduce stress that causes spontaneous failure?
I noticed that my prints were considerably more brittle and the layer adhesion was terrible after I moved from inside my house to inside my trailer in the winter. I would have to heat up the bed and nozzle with my hands to get my printer to the 8 degree safe-to-setting on my printer to even start warming it up. I also had to increase the bed temperature from 60-70 to get decent adhesion in these temps. Once I got a space heater and pointed it directly at the printer the bed and nozzle temperatures stay are usually around 20-30 degrees now and my prints are fine.
Hi great video what camera did you use to get the thermal imagery?
The thermal images were made with a FLIR One thermal camera: geni.us/F1Hl
"Sodium chlorite" 😍😂👌
IMO an engine block heater is more important than a cupé heater, but both is pretty sweet. If you only have the cupé heater, and there's the tiniest speck of moisture, your windows will condense and fog due to the large temperature delta between the inside and outside of the glass, and you have to run the car's heater to demist. If the engine is cold, then it's only gonna blow cold air, and it will chill down that nice warm cupé in an instant.
If you use a an engine block heater on the other hand, you can have your engine and all its coolant up to temp even if it's 15-20+°C below freezing, the moment you start the car. It will start as if on a warm summer day, and save _a lot_ of fuel because its already at optimal temp, so you skip the whole "fat fuel-air mixture" period the engine needs to warm up. And thus your car's heater and AC will be able to blow max heat if you want, from the start. It won't be nice and toasty when you get in, but it can be after a minute if you so desire. And your windshield glass won't be very warm/heated on the inside, so if it's snowing, the snow won't instantly melt and stick to it. You also get to sidestep the whole catch-22 situation where you need the windshield glass to cool down to reduce condensation on the inside and stop snow from sticking to the outside, but your window is already fogged up due to being warm so you need to blast it with more heat to get rid of the fogging,
it could ave been intresting to look at flexible parts behaviour at low temperatures
On my side at 25° C my extruder jam a bit. Next high temperature test !
Would be cool to know (pun intended), how you could improve their cold weather performance. or the performance of the best material for cold weather in general.
@cnckitchen I'm not sure where you are but a 1400 W heater is using 116a @12v. most alternators charge at 90a or less. So using that could quickly and completely drain your vehicle's battery.
That was kitchen salt ? NaCl ? And what was the part you used for the car ? And how did you achieve -20 just from outside ? Great video !
What he reported as the best purchase for his car was a heater he could plug in that would warm up the inside of the car when plugged in. Gives a much more comfortable experience when sitting in the car starting it up when the outside temperature is -20.
Useful info, I thought it was printing in the cold, haha! The room where my printers are at are outside temp, so 0c was feeling warm today, lol, it was definitely much colder earlier this week and the PLA on an unheated bed decided to pop one of the parts off when it got really cold during the night and printed like cotton candy, haha!
The rest have printed well even at sub-zero but I feel like they are more brittle (which would match your findings on stronger cooling fans weakening prints, as well as colder extrusion also weaker layers). I just wonder how cold you can go while printing before it’s so brittle it’s useless part (might be a real problem for researchers in Antarctica or people in space).
Hello! What do you think, what material is better to use for printing finished auto parts, such as a lip spoiler for example?
I'd use ASA.
thanks! If printing parts from several pieces, how best to connect them? To become a solid piece@@CNCKitchen
maybe you will advise any certain ASA?@@CNCKitchen
You can glue it just like ABS, so with acetone for example. Use an ASA from a reputable manufacturer, no Chinese no-name brand.
Thank you very much! Please advise a 3d printer, which can print well? That it was not required to make a lot of settings with it)@@CNCKitchen
you should try the hooks with 100% infill
Very interesting video! I'd love to know what the lowest room temperature you can still get quality prints from printing is
My personal experience in the basement: PLA is ok printable until around 10°C, you can/have to turn down the van a bit.
Below it doesn't work get a lot of adhesion issues with the bed. Even at 10-15°C I had to heat the bed during the whole print to ~30°C and use glue stick.
Winter here can get as bad as -60c it would be Interesting to test things myself at those temperatures lol
Just what i was looking for! As you mentioned, low temperature properties for these materials is not available. If you could provide some insight onto how a material would behave when thrown to the ground at such temperatures, will it shatter, etc. It would be helpful for my research
Ich frag einfach mal direkt auf Deutsch. ;-) Wenn ich das richtig lese, bedeutet dass, das PLA die niedrigste Schlagzähigkeit hat? Was würdest du für technische Anwendungen nehmen, die auch im Winter draußen genutzt werden? Nicht dauerhaft, aber zumindest über drei bis vier Tage am Stück.
Seeing your video leaves me wondering if the water from the ice may have influenced your results, since some filaments also get brittle when they absorb water...
That's why I put the parts in a bag. No danger there.
A few years ago we had -1 C in winter, only for a few hours of one day, at night :D Hehehe ! Even my freezer is working hotter (-18 C) ! Good work, you are doing a lot of good research and the results are very interesting. Cheers !
Any chance you could try out printing at -20c? I’m curious if This could increase print quality for pla type materials. Also wondering just how bad abs is at that temp
Lol
my ABS in unprintable at less than 40C
I can tell you that you'll probably want a backup control board or isolated drivers. Condensation's going to be a consideration.
Also if you're printing over the serialUSB you'll start to get weird behaviour below -20. I haven't 3D printed this cold but I've got a laser module hooked upto a shapeoko 3 running GRBL and it's not "happy" until you get the heat running. :)
@@Taistelupelto420 It's a problem. Set your stuff up in a Canadian garage and find out :)
@@Taistelupelto420 Do you live where it snows? lol.
for the plate how much temperature
PC loses a lot of impact strength, while ABS does not.
If you drop it another 20c does ABS perform better than PC?
What is the max deflection (elasticity) before fracturing?
Not directly related to temperature but failure related - how about testing the filaments for failure over a longer period - while building a new printer I found that clamps made from PLA would fail - actually fracture - but not for some 24hrs or more, where as the PETG replacements have held firm with no problems for many weeks now
Ich hoffe du hast die Standheizung ordentlich angeschlossen, schon mit passendem Steckdosen Kit und allem. Manche führen die einfach nur durch die Tür und werfen die dann zu... Gruselig.
Would be interesting to compare 'filled' materials, be it wood, metal, carbon or glass fiber...
what about printing in the cold?
Makes sense. Consider high carbon hardened (tool) steel, that hasn't been tempered (yet). Through-hardened steel is extremely strong, but with _minimal_ ductility. A sharp edge can shave and cut through large amounts of lesser hardened steel without dulling, but even fairly large cross-sections will shatter if exposed to impact or significant ductility loads. Tempering restores significant rates of ductility at the expense of _a little_ bit of hardness, but the end product is still _relatively_ brittle.
Interesting work. I suppose with a ton of effort we could find a ductility transition temperature for the materials. At first I thought you were going to put the printer in the cold and test the effects of ambient temperature on prints. That would also be interesting, and is relatively uncharted as far as I know.
You could also search for DTMA ( shear modulus depending on temperature ) data and you will see the transition temperatures for the different types of polymer.
You should do an SLA version of this. LOL
Do you have Simplyfy3D? if so can you share your settings with me? I am struggling with that! Plus, ever since I replaced my nozzle to a hardened one, I now print 230C PLA...
Just download the profile from the Prusa forum. Works great!
CNC Kitchen thanks
also, do you recommend going with a 0.25 or a 0.3 size nozzle over the 0.4 stock Prusa nozzle or do you foresee any future problems like calibrating print settings?
I've been doing some prints with smaller nozzles but never had a really great experience. If you don't have the necessity for very small details 0.4mm would still be my go-to choice!
I find this a very interesting video because I have had to deal with this in Minnesota since I could not put my printer in my house and had to put it in the garage :/
You should make a video on PRINTING in these temps. Because I have noticed that that is unmarked territory
interesting tests, I thought pla would just brake like crazy :)
Idle question: Printing depends of a good bond between the layer being printed and the previous layers, no?
You might get away with low ambient temperature printing with a modified printing head.
Yes, you still have your extruder and all that, but by adding a low powered laser [500 mw-ish], you could heat the previous layer directly ahead of the printing path.
Previous layer would get softened/melted, fuses well with new printed layer.
As a bonus it would not require the model to be at an elevated temperature during the entire print.
Since only a very small volume of the model is heated at any one time, could warping be lessened? Eliminated?
More interesting, would rapid cooling due to low ambient temps affect the properties of the plastic being printed?
Metals have grain boundaries and all that. Hardening, tempering and annealing all re-shuffle those grainy guys.
Do plastics have such tendencies?
Does really fast cooling make the plastic denser, or less so?
Post processing at low temps?
There are 'cryogenic steels', their grain structure compacted by liquid nitrogen soaking after fabrication.
Great methodology, by the way!
I think I've read some time ago that somebody made efforts to actually use a laser to warm up the previously printed layer. Would need to do some research, but maybe somebody else knows something about that?
I wonder how an already very brittle material would change in low temperatures. Perhaps a fiber filled pla or similar would be unchanged?
You should have tried printing in cold enviroment like outside or unheated garage.
I get the cold air would significantly improve the overhangs and the part cooling
Overhangs and part cooling do get better, but curling get significantly worse. PLA and PETG do ok, but abs gets nearly unprintable.
Thought this was going to be about printing parts that cold - as in using the printer in an unheated workshop.
I thought you meant you printed them with the chamber at low temperature. That would have been a much more interesting
I wonder how the laws of conservation of energy applies to this in a macro scale, also for different fill (maybe even 100% or molding out the materials used) to see the actual material capabilities in addition to 3d printed environment. As far as I can logically see it, you apply gradual strain on a part it'll introduce heat until that part deforms, if the part is cool enough it won't be able to deform as elastically as in hot environment meaning less energy is converted, that made me think it'll 'convert' less energy to elastic and instead will make the material snap, although at a higher point because freezing, well, like water, makes liquid form into more sturdy material.
This causes a somewhat of a threshold effect, the material cannot stretch, so it has to snap.
Also, on impact the forces are generally higher so you reach that threshold instantly, while a 'hotter' print acts as sort of dampner, so it changes it shape on micro level to compensate for the forces being applied to it.
I also wonder what the temperature readings on the parts would be in such scenarios under the stress tests
Not sure if any of what I've said here is true, just was having a small thought.
Thanks for a great informational video, subscribed
This video has good content that (as far as I know) is not anywhere else (such as your data on PC-Max). It would be good to post a summary of the testing data somewhere. Also, It would be interesting if you used your CNC machine to make a hook out of solid polycarbonate and compare that to the 3D printed version. That way we will understand what penalty there is to 3D printing a plastic part compared to molded or tooled part.
Can you redo the test with a bath in water with antifreeze chilled by dry ice to say -40°C?
Really hard to get dry ice here in Germany if you're not living in a big city.
Where can we get the designs for the tensile and impact testers?
Haven't put them anywhere yet. Send me a mail and I'll provide the CAD models.
-40 is a bit extreme. Before windchill i don’t think it has ever been that cold where i am in canada.
overall PCMAX for the win, great tension strength, and great brittle strength overall. PLA a good second place with great tension strength but much more brittle than the others. I noticed on their website: "When printing with PolyMax™ PC it is recommended to use an enclosure. Recommended to use a heated chamber.
Recommended to anneal the printed part right after the printing process to release the residual internal stress.
Annealing settings: 100˚C for 2h" I think this would make it even stronger.
3:20 that graph looks so wrong. Ambient temperature?
Sodium chloride is table salt and is not dangerous. You definitely don't need a gas mask when working with table salt and it will only cause hypertension if you eat lots of it everyday.
I wonder if the parts experiencing temperature decrease shrank in size by a significant amount? It would be interesting to find out which materials experience less shrinkage for precision fit designs.
Just take a look at thermal expansion coefficients. A temperature difference of 40K won't cause huge differences in dimensions.
The parts of Canada where the majority of Canadians live don't often see temperatures as low as -40c, at least not before the windchill factor.
Ian Colquhoun yeahhh but we definitely have a few million who do. And the ones who live on the coasts are Soft and don't really count do they?
We have had at least a couple -40C days this year, some years we have a lot more. All prior to Windchill. Hello for Southern Alberta, Canada.
Ian Colquhoun 🐻🐼🐨🐨🦁
The parts of Canada where the majority of the money is sees -40 C quite frequently. Multiple times a year. Pre windchill. GO 'BERTA!! East of the Rockies and west of the rest.
Try being in Winnipeg during the winter! -40°c BEFORE adding windchill then in the middle of summer we get 35-40°c above zero and watch your cars dashboard ripple and split in the sun
so it increased the tensile strength but after its yield strength was hit there was little to no plastic deformation. Also reducing the overall toughness of the test article.
Versuche mal ABS mit ultraschall zu behandeln, die mechanischen Eigenschaften verbessern sich. Was auch interessant wäre in einem Vakuum oder Stickstoff Atmosphäre zu drucken. Der Oxidationsprozess wäre dadurch unterdrückt. Wär mal was wa. ;)
Servus Stefan ich komme auch aus DE
Beware of the Tafelsalz ^. ^
Why 0.165 layer heights? i usually print at 0.18 or 0.2
Because I use 3x0.44mm perimeters which makes an 1.32mm wall. 8 layers 0.165mm is also 1.32mm so I get an even wall thickness. Usually I also print with 0.15 or 0.2mm layers.
отличино и наглядно, понял без перевода)
Fear the Sodium Chloride!!
I think you could remove many variables if you tested just raw filament
how about printing in Sub zero conditions
I LIVE IN CANADA AND WITERS ARE ONLY -17 AT VERY BAD TIMES