If you enjoy or learn anything from the content in this video, then Please SHARE the vid!!! And Like, and comment your thoughts below. My goal was to give new knowledge to the community and make the game's future better as a result. Also guys, dont feel limited to ONLY these strategies. Example aerials aren't always bad (but the landing lag is reactable and also sonic's invincibility destroys it), etc., but my main goal was to give new perspectives that you guys may not have otherwise known. Everything (or most things) has counterplay, and thinking outside the box and considering risk/rewards and conditioning(helps to know all your options and their options and also habits for this to be as effective as possible) can all be helpful. Smash is much more deep than people realize. One big tip is to observe your opponent, and counterplay accordingly. Having expanded knowledge/understanding of smash, theorycraft, matchups, or your opponent does makes this easier though. Completely unrelated - feel free to check out the TH-cam description for my monthly events (this Friday is an Ultimate major stacked event with a 13-stage ruleset!), affiliate links or my Merch(shirts etc.) if you wanna help me out directly, etc. See you guys on Twitch! Esp this Friday
I can see why people choose complaining since sonic needs so much to both master and work against.Sonic is mix ups the character and most of the time it is a guessing game.Though working on the match up is helpful.
Yea that was my life before "balance patches" for pm/smash4/ultimate made people just wanna ban either whoever wins / who they dont like / who they are told by others is op. Old days were about just learning to overcome stuff and studying your options.
@@agentcheriee No I mean you are right, the fact that you play against sonic is not an excuse to loose but the way you say it is basically like there are a bunch of stupid peoples who spamm online and that they could just destroy sonic player super easily. It is just a formulation problem I guess.
Smash players forgot how to play smash, so here’s m2k teaching smash players how the game works: EVERYTHING HAS COUNTERPLAY, you don’t have to ask for bans when you can do MUCH MORE. Thanks MVG!
The memes aside, I hope *at least* one thing from this video will help people out in the Sonic Match Up. Offline OR Online. It's better and more productive than complaining on Twitter.
And better than backlashing those who Main him like if they were rapists or child molesters. Yeah yeah, He can be Annoying, but what if You learn the MU and adapt instead of death threatening someone or complaiming in r/smashrage
I'm a Sonic main, and I have to say, THANK YOU. It's refreshing to have these weaknesses exposed, to show he does indeed have counter-play. Every time I tell people that Sonic isn't that great in the grand scheme of things, that if you just knew how to counter-play him you'd have such an easier time, they always think I'm lying and act like "hurr durr Sonic online OP." The things you've spoke are the majority of weaknesses I would tell people to abuse, but they never figure it out - especially when mix-ups come into play. I also play aggressive Sonic, so I very much depend on smooth gameplay, so if anything my Sonic does worse online - Overall, it's peoples inexperience that make it easier than it should be, and make them think he's impossible to fight online. I would argue other characters are far worse to fight online. Here's my opinions on the matter of his weaknesses, should folks want an insight from someone who mains him (but not to any pro-like level, these are from my experiences, my opinions of his weaknesses) First off - the Spindash: I have always told people "just challenge it." Just like you said, run up and Dash attack. I guarantee a campy Sonic isn't thinking you'll do it, and I win against campy Sonic's by doing just that. On top of that, swords and projectiles will easily beat out or prevent Spindash and Spincharge moves - either by being disjointed enough to hit Sonic mid-roll, or in the case of projectiles, covering the ground to prevent the movement. On the flipside, it's cool to see how effective the I-frames are - as it's something I usually only pull off by accident. But that's still something more situational online, I feel, especially considering my less campy playstyle, and the natural input delay of releasing the button VS the move actually releasing. If players know that's what you're going for every time, then in theory it's something you can adapt to and avoid (and maybe punish) - just like fast OoS options. But most folks rather complain about it than learn it. (Also, the hitbox is half the size of the ball - same with homing attack and nair, basically. This is why swords are great, you'll hit hurtbox before hitbox) Secondly - Shielding: Shielding is great, because once Sonic hits you, his options are grossly limited. If he spindashed into you, you know he's always going to be behind you in the upper corner, with his best options after that being a homing attack, a back-air, or to run away. B-air, depending on the shield stun, is just laggy enough to be beaten out. Homing attack can be rolled away from to force him to hit the ground and have crazy lag (or shielded further, making his best option afterward a f-air or u-air as he attempts to land from the shield hit). If Sonic hits your shield with f-tilt, he can be grabbed right after (depending on character, etc - I've been grabbed by Link when doing this on shield). Dash attack is also pretty poor on shield, and if you shield all of f-air, he's kind of stuck. And D-air is also quite punishing if he lands too close without hitting, or hitting just shield. Basically... Once you learn how ineffective most of his kit is against shield, you'll learn how to punish it. He's not safe with most moves. A lot of what I said was echoed by Mew2King, but I wanted to ensure I wrote what I thought personally, and in my own way. Other hints I could give would be to, once again, run away from ledge if you think Sonic will lock-on with Homing Attack to recover (so many people just let it happen). You can also spot dodge, roll, etc. He also REALLY isn't fast in the air, so juggle that sucker. His landing options are fairly limited, so get him above you and go to town. And if he's camping you out, you just have to accept you'll have to adapt to him landing from his up-b. It's no different than trying to time attacks on characters who b-reverse mid-air, you gotta adapt to how he's running away and punish those landings - he can't stay in the air forever. Also, watch out for Spring gimps under the stage. Recover far if he keeps doing it right at the lip, then air dodge to the ledge. He'll still be the in air and unlikely to punish the airdodge. Or, just recover under the stage, and get pushed up the wall - the timing is likely not precise enough to catch you right as you slide up to the ledge.
Thank you very much for this detailed comment. It really helps an inexperienced player like myself understand how to deal with the character a bit better. Plus, lots of respect to you for sharing advice that could potentially increase your competition.
@@claudiafreeman1670 Game's no fun if it's too easy, and even less fun if people just get upset fighting a character they don't enjoy. So if I can help in any way by explaining what, in my opinion, helps take him down - I'm all for it. (Not to mention, as a Sonic player, I usually disagree with the complaints people have, and I wanna explain why). Lord knows I certainly have characters like that myself that are just so painful to fight, so I sympathise ^_^ I hope some of the tips help! Of course, it's all "easier said than done," but having an idea is better than none at all. I can't tell you how many people don't even know the difference between down-b and side-b - that alone shows me they don't know how to fight it. If they only knew a few small things, it will go so much better :)
@WeeAddy briefly talk about how good wolf is against Sonic. I say that because I hear one side saying that wolf is good, and the other saying that wolf is Sonic's easiest matchup. I think that the second one is wrong. Also, Tweek says that Wolf is good against Sonic. Along with Travplay.
As a Sonic main, this is a great video! I’ve been trying to tell people how to counter play spin dash and homing attack but they never really believe me. But this video is amazing proof. Also helped me learn more about the flaws of using spin dash and homing attack and now I’ll try to be smarter when using them. Great job with this video!
i keep meeting this dude who joins my arenas, he charge spin mid air, if i shield then it lowers my shield so i cant shield 2 in a row. when i threw out a neutral air (i had randomed ganon) it never hit. all i ever hit him with were down bs after he had knocked me into the air. i had no idea how to handle him i just felt i couldnt do anything because this guy was never on the ground and my aerials didnt work. im usually kinda chill but i wanted to throw this kids switch out the window or rip his b button off his controller. to the point that im here asking u. as sonic, who do u feel u cant touch? cus i will find this guy and 3 stock him lol, when i havent randomed ganon lol
@@Auron710 I'm a Sonic who loves aggressive gameplay and I've seemed to make that playstyle work against all the characters but it is still never easy for some. I think whether the Sonic is very defensive and offensive, characters with speed and zoning tools are simply the best. My personal least favorite is ZSS. Very tricky to hit and edge guard if they're spacing me out. Otherwise Pikachu and Inkling are always solid in my opinion. If you're good at aggressive playstyle, playing as Roy or Fox is good because they got the speed and the moves that mostly stopped/counter spinning
This is one of the most amazing videos I've seen hands down. Also.. the music that was edited in really brought back a good feeling of nostalgia. Thanks MVG!
Hey Jason, thanks for this guide. I was able to beat a notable sonic named Phoenix in bracket offline literally because of this guide. It’s extremely helpful.
Ahmad Kazan Yeah what’s even the point of elite smash anyways? Like it doesn’t even change anything except for the fact that almost everyone you play will be a camper or a spammer just so they can gain a slight amount of GSP
@@potatsalad1389 yep. And I'd like to add this: although battle arenas are better, they aren't better by much because of troll rulesets, rules that most people don't use, sometimes entering into a one v.s one battle will get you the message "a communication error has occurred", and some people who you want to rematch but don't want to rematch you after a win.
Makes sense. The better you know your weaknesses and shortcomings, the better you can compensate and strategist around them to minimize them which can only strengthen your play.
This is super awesome. I've always loved your commentary about smash. You are so even keeled and knowledgable. Its seriously so helpful! I hope you decide to do more characters. I have never been more enthralled by a 30 minute video on TH-cam.
I think this video is great but funnily enough, I hardly see sonic online anymore. Heck, I hardly see any of the classic WiFi characters like Ganondorf, King K. Rool, Little Mac, Banjo & Kazooie, Yoshi, Ike, Mega Man, Mr. Game & Watch, Inkling, Simon/Richter, Incineroar, Wii Fit Trainer, Zelda, King Dedede, Hero, Piranha Plant, Snake, R.O.B, Lucina, and Mii Gunner. What I see online the most nowadays is Lucas/Ness, Jigglypuff, Mario/Dr. Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Samus/Dark Samus, Roy/Chrom, Pac-Man, Mii Brawler, Bayonetta, Cloud, Terry, Joker, Bowser Jr, Bowser, Diddy Kong, Captain Falcon, Duck Hunt, Wolf, Falco, Shiek, Marth, all the Links, and Corrin. Of the characters I see the most nowadays, the 5 most common ones for me are Lucas, Captain Falcon, Young Link, Cloud, and Jigglypuff. Of the classic WiFi characters, the 5 I see the least nowadays are Zelda, Sonic, Inkling, Snake, and Ganondorf. Has the online meta for the characters changed or something? Or is it just me?
@@ojutay8375 I play sonic and I think I can understand why people doesn't plat as him more,. 1-you get a character that one of his good options is to camp 2-No matter how you play(really, I sometimes tried to be more agressive instead of playing optimal), you won't get rematched, in the recent months, I think I had like 4 rematch for like 20 fights. So you feel like you are hated.
Thank you, M2K! Very well put together! I'm a heavy audio and graphic cue player and would like to share some further advice. It's important to differentiate between Spin Dash (downB) and Slingshot Spin Dash (sideB) as quick as possible. Spin Dash - He will stay stationary while charging. There is more White 'comic' sparks and more smoke around Sonic while charging than sideB. For audio cue, you will hear a constant buzzing while they charge (a beep for every downB press). Slingshot Spin Dash - Sonic will slide backward a bit as he charges. For audio cues, it will be a single, prolonged beep. A non-FullCharge Slingshot Spin Dash will ALWAYS have a 'lob shot' or bounce before it grounds itself again and shoots forward. During the rise of this, Sonic has i-frames. Respect this part (this was explained in depth in the video).
@Hermaphrodeity yeah,getting a big combo on some stupid plays is hilarious.Especially when your opponent is left believing sonic is best in game. I'd say he also has decent to good approach options like homingnattack and his aireals (up and back) are safe on shield.
Hiya, Sonic main here and I'd like to give my two cents on this Spindash when fully charged can gain 6 more i-frames upon turning around Also it might be better to simply be ready for homing attack to lock on, spot dodge for an easy punish
I think it is a god send for other characters that sonic's hit box is like 10 times smaller than his hurt box so I think you can use grabs or throw smash attacks to counter an option of spindash.Though spindash is just free options and your just guessing.
I love you for this. Not because I have counterplay to sonic, but because of your amount of knowledge and the general statements you made about counterplay in general, habits, and the like.
i’m lucky i play sheik, since she does well against sonic. it’s very difficult for sonic to whiff punish sheik, she has great burst options to interrupt the charge, and above all, needles are just an amazing anti-sonic tool that no other character has
True shiek espicially can counter sonic,if she was faster(Like captin falcon) she would be his worst match up.I still kinda feel bad for shiek mains when I air dodge out of there combo and land an uncharscd f-smash to get the lead back.
What an absolute unsung hero you are for posting videos like this. Patch culture has conditioned too many people to complain until things are changed, instead of just learning and understanding what characters do.
As a Sonic main, it makes me SO happy to see this. Thanks to M2K for clarifying that getting better at matchups is better than simply always complaining and in more extreme situations banning the character and his mains from having any fun period.
Good video Mew2King! Personally as you mention in the video, your best friend will be the shield, as it protects you from many options of Sonic, playing camping helps quite a lot, mostly waiting for the opponent to make a mistake that costs him 20 or 30% damage... In my case being Main Isabelle, the game changes a bit as the Down B makes Sonic either jump the seed or stay on the other side of the stage, giving me the opportunity to attack in the distance with the Fair or Bair, is a game from far and a bit late because if you want to play aggressive, you can lose the match... I hope this video will help other people who find it difficult to play against this character! 🎉
Brilliant tips, I've struggled against B move spamming sonics for a while, but never did the research and looking at his frame data. Now I have things to focus on depending on what he does. Very helpful guide!
So pretty much just roll on Stage or F-Air jump up from ledge if you're at early percent to avoid Short Hop N-Air and use ledge Jump at high percents to avoid being F-Smashed :) Basically it's like most of your decisions should be based on your percent correct?
@@kArchenOFFICAL I would agree but just look at the video. Sonic's moves can stall your opponent (play mind games with you) and attack whenever he sees an opening. Its not adaptable if the move is inconsistent. Can't shield too much or your shield breaks, can just shield out early because you get hit, you only have a couple frame window to shield right or parry specially with the lag online.
wow... ngl this is actually crazy good. most people on mu's explain it in such a 4Head way like "shield more lol" but m2k explained it really well and i found out a lot of new things here
If anyone is looking for a counterpick character against Sonic, I suggest Link. Use his remote bomb to divide up the stage in half. Sonic players will often jump over it with spindash to approach. Link's Nair will almost always beat Sonic in the air. If he jumps or runs past you, throw out a boomerang. If he is across the stage and charging spindash for a long time, hit him with an arrow. Not to mention, he can KO Sonic much earlier than Sonic can KO him. I'm telling you all, Link does really well against Sonic.
I play Link and just spam my wonderful nair as they spam spin dash and homing atk straight into it! Any character with a long lasting aerial hitbox can destroy sonic mains who DONT think. Even Dr. Mario works! Try it!
Honestly, the best strat against them, is just standing still, they literally have a mental breakdown. Sonic rellies heavily on responding after you, and not starting an attack, and then just escaping. Ive beaten every single Sonic as DDD(my main) like this, just wait for them to get close to you, they'll eventually have no other option. Also, you can use their lack of combo creativity as an advantage, they will almost always use a forward air after charging at you, wich makes them predictable and an easy target for a spike.
My Duck Hunt is Sonics worst nightmare. I just shower them with gunman, cans and clay pigeons from accross the arena. So many projectiles makes a campy Sonic hard to get in. The cans are especially effective since it makes Sonic hard to spindash jump over the arena. Also, u need to add in a few smash moves to mix up his strategy. The clay pigeons make it hard for Sonic to run in for the grabs. If Sonic manages to get close, then the best strategy is to double jump out of there and quickly run to opposite side of arena and restart the same projectile strategy. Just rinse and repeat. Eventually, they will get frustrated and stop using the charged spindash move and will try running in with charging homing attack. Thats when u start mixing up smash atacks.
16:28 Roll intangibility does not linger as long as spotdodge intangibility. Always, universally, for every character, spotdodges are safer against Homing Attack.
As a person who plays sonic sometimes I second a little bit of this only thing is lag will make you go into a grab early and BOOM sonic has you also lag will give sonic mains a chance to do something entirely different
how to fight luigi: 1- Don't get grabbed so you have to be very safe playing, very defensive 2- ou have to assume that down b does what it wants. 3- when you are a up-b percent, don't do aerial that are not fast, you are just asking luigi to do it
Great explanations and very useful. I didn’t even recognize the different moves. Learnt a lot for this MU, thanks. More stuff like this on difficult MUs will be very appreciated, I am thinking about snake, richter, bayonetta... That’s characters we don’t see so often but can be very annoying if we don’t know what they are doing and how to counter.
Awesome jason make this a series. Learned so much about little mechanics I wouldn’t have otherwise. Also the top level play mentality stuff was super interesting.
I see a “How to beat” series coming up 😃 Terry Luigi Snake Megaman Palutena Joker PacMan ROB Little Mac (yes, not everyone knows) EVERYONE except like echoes
How long does it take you to get all this information and study all this stuff on average? Just wondering. Edit: Oh and also how would you test these things in your own?
I'm glad I now know what I should be doing against him however I'm sad cause he still is gonna be a big pain to deal with. There was no easy solution here just alot counter play options. Oh well I just will need to find a good sonic main to practice against uhgg
I used to struggle against sonic until I met a good sonic player at a local. We played a lot and I realize that sonic is very punishable if you know how his moves work. Now I find him easy to fight, but yeah it took a lot of mu practice and learning his moves before I could fight him at all.
Honestly, as a Sonic main i'd think this would be a viable trick against sonics but it all depends on timing. Not to mention sonic does have other tools to rack up damage as well, which i thoroughly abuse as well. But i will say that not every sonic player plays like me.
I'm not really sure how many characters this applies to, but if you have at least one or two projectiles, try to use them more often. In my case I use Luigi's fireballs and plunger, they usually just hit sonic out of any spindash move, which will force them to eventually approach with other moves at some point. From there you can go on and fight like normal. This is usually more helpful when fighting sonics who like to s p i n a lot more than usual. You could also maybe try a move that covers a lot of space or one that stays out for a long time. Then again this is just from personal experience, so I'm sorry if this doesn't help much.
As a sonic main I see people do that a lot, and I usually counter this easily considering a non-fully charged side b bypasses projectiles for a few starting frames, it’s usually fast enough to get to the other character afterwards aswell
Thank you M2K for being so neutral in this video! I'm a sonic main who only plays in offline tourney's and doesn't like the character online. A lot of people don't realize that high level sonic is based on a reaction game while online sonic is based on camping and abusing opponent mistakes. A lot of this is the same advice I give to my friends on the match up! Great video
If you enjoy or learn anything from the content in this video, then Please SHARE the vid!!! And Like, and comment your thoughts below.
My goal was to give new knowledge to the community and make the game's future better as a result.
Also guys, dont feel limited to ONLY these strategies. Example aerials aren't always bad (but the landing lag is reactable and also sonic's invincibility destroys it), etc., but my main goal was to give new perspectives that you guys may not have otherwise known. Everything (or most things) has counterplay, and thinking outside the box and considering risk/rewards and conditioning(helps to know all your options and their options and also habits for this to be as effective as possible) can all be helpful.
Smash is much more deep than people realize. One big tip is to observe your opponent, and counterplay accordingly. Having expanded knowledge/understanding of smash, theorycraft, matchups, or your opponent does makes this easier though.
Completely unrelated - feel free to check out the TH-cam description for my monthly events (this Friday is an Ultimate major stacked event with a 13-stage ruleset!), affiliate links or my Merch(shirts etc.) if you wanna help me out directly, etc.
See you guys on Twitch! Esp this Friday
Uwu
shut up mew2king impostor. Everyone knows he doesn't use his main channel!
RT'd and shared with my local scene :) good video!
i need those guys to learn the mu so they stop whining about it lmao
Please do Steve next he needs to be banned so bad.
working on mu’s>>>>complaining on twitter
I can see why people choose complaining since sonic needs so much to both master and work against.Sonic is mix ups the character and most of the time it is a guessing game.Though working on the match up is helpful.
Yea that was my life before "balance patches" for pm/smash4/ultimate made people just wanna ban either whoever wins / who they dont like / who they are told by others is op. Old days were about just learning to overcome stuff and studying your options.
@@TheRealMew2king a good skill to have
Mew2King ok boomer
@@olie567 learn how to play
Online spammers HATE him.
Learn how he easily countered the lag with one simple trick.
The trick: *L A N* *A D A P T E R*
Yes mkleo is clearly an online spammer and true players shouldn't have any problem with the sonic matchup online.
Artimist 03 when did I say MKLeo?
@@artimist0315 *wait-*
@@agentcheriee No I mean you are right, the fact that you play against sonic is not an excuse to loose but the way you say it is basically like there are a bunch of stupid peoples who spamm online and that they could just destroy sonic player super easily. It is just a formulation problem I guess.
“Don’t do aerials, you will lose”
Little Mac - I see this as an absolute win
As a mac main. That's why I'm hear
@@TheGameMan76 hear?
Please do olimar next
this is a really good video idea, you should make videos like this for other characters
He shouldn't do one for Pikachu 🙃🙃🙃
Agreed. One for Samus/Dark Samus would be kinda nice. I always get rekt :(
Yes please
Agreed!
HUGE AGREE. This would help a ton for learning matchups.
Instructions unclear, BECAME a sonic main.
Send help, everyone is destroying me with counter-play.
Smash players forgot how to play smash, so here’s m2k teaching smash players how the game works: EVERYTHING HAS COUNTERPLAY, you don’t have to ask for bans when you can do MUCH MORE.
Thanks MVG!
I mean. M2k has always came out with the data to show us love. This usual lol.
this is why im subscribed to yt and twitch. such good content
No
@@theSato ?
@surut arat there is always a negative side of a positive.
Mewtwo King: It has 1 through 6 invincibility- 1 through 6 invincibility means 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 22
Me, a filthy causal: ???
lool he means on the 17th frame of the move. i.e. the counter is going after your press the button of the move
CPU on the 6th frame of invincibility: I'm fine
CPU after missing homing attack:totally in advantage,
I just noticed that the sunflower rotation is actually a optical illusion.
i always saw it going left and right
@@Vertigo547 that's how it goes, but the illusion is that it looks like it's rotating.
@@brinst_ar well the reflextion doesn't make it work . It is not a illusion . It literally does not even look like it's rotating
@@sticlavoda5632 it does. If you take out the reflection, it really look like it's rotating, but that's just what i think tho.
I THOUGHT IT WAS ROTATING
This video: exists
Me, a Sonic main: “Tell me more about what to look out for now.”
Agreed, as I'm a sonic main as well
Me: The best way to win is to know you and your enemy's weakness. Exploit, destroy, and redo.
Muahaha
Bars of soap, mainly.
The memes aside, I hope *at least* one thing from this video will help people out in the Sonic Match Up. Offline OR Online.
It's better and more productive than complaining on Twitter.
Absolutely agree with this.
Faxx
And better than backlashing those who Main him like if they were rapists or child molesters.
Yeah yeah, He can be Annoying, but what if You learn the MU and adapt instead of death threatening someone or complaiming in r/smashrage
Mew2king’s game knowledge is so thorough. Plus he’s good at explaining things. If he became a coach, he’d do well in the role.
M2K is best coach!!
I'm a Sonic main, and I have to say, THANK YOU. It's refreshing to have these weaknesses exposed, to show he does indeed have counter-play. Every time I tell people that Sonic isn't that great in the grand scheme of things, that if you just knew how to counter-play him you'd have such an easier time, they always think I'm lying and act like "hurr durr Sonic online OP." The things you've spoke are the majority of weaknesses I would tell people to abuse, but they never figure it out - especially when mix-ups come into play. I also play aggressive Sonic, so I very much depend on smooth gameplay, so if anything my Sonic does worse online - Overall, it's peoples inexperience that make it easier than it should be, and make them think he's impossible to fight online. I would argue other characters are far worse to fight online. Here's my opinions on the matter of his weaknesses, should folks want an insight from someone who mains him (but not to any pro-like level, these are from my experiences, my opinions of his weaknesses)
First off - the Spindash: I have always told people "just challenge it." Just like you said, run up and Dash attack. I guarantee a campy Sonic isn't thinking you'll do it, and I win against campy Sonic's by doing just that. On top of that, swords and projectiles will easily beat out or prevent Spindash and Spincharge moves - either by being disjointed enough to hit Sonic mid-roll, or in the case of projectiles, covering the ground to prevent the movement. On the flipside, it's cool to see how effective the I-frames are - as it's something I usually only pull off by accident. But that's still something more situational online, I feel, especially considering my less campy playstyle, and the natural input delay of releasing the button VS the move actually releasing. If players know that's what you're going for every time, then in theory it's something you can adapt to and avoid (and maybe punish) - just like fast OoS options. But most folks rather complain about it than learn it. (Also, the hitbox is half the size of the ball - same with homing attack and nair, basically. This is why swords are great, you'll hit hurtbox before hitbox)
Secondly - Shielding: Shielding is great, because once Sonic hits you, his options are grossly limited. If he spindashed into you, you know he's always going to be behind you in the upper corner, with his best options after that being a homing attack, a back-air, or to run away. B-air, depending on the shield stun, is just laggy enough to be beaten out. Homing attack can be rolled away from to force him to hit the ground and have crazy lag (or shielded further, making his best option afterward a f-air or u-air as he attempts to land from the shield hit). If Sonic hits your shield with f-tilt, he can be grabbed right after (depending on character, etc - I've been grabbed by Link when doing this on shield). Dash attack is also pretty poor on shield, and if you shield all of f-air, he's kind of stuck. And D-air is also quite punishing if he lands too close without hitting, or hitting just shield. Basically... Once you learn how ineffective most of his kit is against shield, you'll learn how to punish it. He's not safe with most moves.
A lot of what I said was echoed by Mew2King, but I wanted to ensure I wrote what I thought personally, and in my own way. Other hints I could give would be to, once again, run away from ledge if you think Sonic will lock-on with Homing Attack to recover (so many people just let it happen). You can also spot dodge, roll, etc. He also REALLY isn't fast in the air, so juggle that sucker. His landing options are fairly limited, so get him above you and go to town. And if he's camping you out, you just have to accept you'll have to adapt to him landing from his up-b. It's no different than trying to time attacks on characters who b-reverse mid-air, you gotta adapt to how he's running away and punish those landings - he can't stay in the air forever. Also, watch out for Spring gimps under the stage. Recover far if he keeps doing it right at the lip, then air dodge to the ledge. He'll still be the in air and unlikely to punish the airdodge. Or, just recover under the stage, and get pushed up the wall - the timing is likely not precise enough to catch you right as you slide up to the ledge.
Thank you very much for this detailed comment. It really helps an inexperienced player like myself understand how to deal with the character a bit better. Plus, lots of respect to you for sharing advice that could potentially increase your competition.
@@claudiafreeman1670 Game's no fun if it's too easy, and even less fun if people just get upset fighting a character they don't enjoy. So if I can help in any way by explaining what, in my opinion, helps take him down - I'm all for it. (Not to mention, as a Sonic player, I usually disagree with the complaints people have, and I wanna explain why). Lord knows I certainly have characters like that myself that are just so painful to fight, so I sympathise ^_^
I hope some of the tips help! Of course, it's all "easier said than done," but having an idea is better than none at all. I can't tell you how many people don't even know the difference between down-b and side-b - that alone shows me they don't know how to fight it. If they only knew a few small things, it will go so much better :)
@WeeAddy briefly talk about how good wolf is against Sonic. I say that because I hear one side saying that wolf is good, and the other saying that wolf is Sonic's easiest matchup. I think that the second one is wrong. Also, Tweek says that Wolf is good against Sonic. Along with Travplay.
This would be a great series of videos for all characters. So much content to talk about and a superb/knowledgable player giving us this content
Please do a video on Steve next
This guide's really handy, thanks!
Not on a top level though.Top Sonics can still easily work over this.
@@ahmadkazan7994 There's counterplay to everything lol.
@@DKStorms64 almost everything
@@strato9873 what isn't there counterplay too?
@@DKStorms64 your opponent un-plugging their switch
As a Sonic main, this is a great video! I’ve been trying to tell people how to counter play spin dash and homing attack but they never really believe me. But this video is amazing proof. Also helped me learn more about the flaws of using spin dash and homing attack and now I’ll try to be smarter when using them. Great job with this video!
Sonic killed me so much that I picked him up...he's so fun to play with I don't hate him anymore
i keep meeting this dude who joins my arenas, he charge spin mid air, if i shield then it lowers my shield so i cant shield 2 in a row. when i threw out a neutral air (i had randomed ganon) it never hit. all i ever hit him with were down bs after he had knocked me into the air. i had no idea how to handle him i just felt i couldnt do anything because this guy was never on the ground and my aerials didnt work. im usually kinda chill but i wanted to throw this kids switch out the window or rip his b button off his controller. to the point that im here asking u. as sonic, who do u feel u cant touch? cus i will find this guy and 3 stock him lol, when i havent randomed ganon lol
@@Auron710 I'm a Sonic who loves aggressive gameplay and I've seemed to make that playstyle work against all the characters but it is still never easy for some. I think whether the Sonic is very defensive and offensive, characters with speed and zoning tools are simply the best. My personal least favorite is ZSS. Very tricky to hit and edge guard if they're spacing me out. Otherwise Pikachu and Inkling are always solid in my opinion. If you're good at aggressive playstyle, playing as Roy or Fox is good because they got the speed and the moves that mostly stopped/counter spinning
@@coolsdebristv489 but when someone plays him against you
Is he fun?
@@Ego-Fiend yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I go to replays nicely.
This is one of the most amazing videos I've seen hands down. Also.. the music that was edited in really brought back a good feeling of nostalgia. Thanks MVG!
Hey Jason, thanks for this guide. I was able to beat a notable sonic named Phoenix in bracket offline literally because of this guide. It’s extremely helpful.
I would go online and see a sonic with a 3 minute ruleset with 2 stocks and he would just time me out..
I get such sonic's but they don't even camp me out.I can't believe some people are still rushing to reach elite smash.
Ahmad Kazan Yeah what’s even the point of elite smash anyways? Like it doesn’t even change anything except for the fact that almost everyone you play will be a camper or a spammer just so they can gain a slight amount of GSP
@@potatsalad1389 yep. And I'd like to add this: although battle arenas are better, they aren't better by much because of troll rulesets, rules that most people don't use, sometimes entering into a one v.s one battle will get you the message "a communication error has occurred", and some people who you want to rematch but don't want to rematch you after a win.
@@grotto185 thats why u play friendlies with people on discord.
@@grotto185 public battle arenas are even more of a meme then elite smash
Informative and pleasantly edited, good stuff.
As a sonic main I appreciate the info you have others so I can change my gameplan
I think this taught me how to get better at PLAYING Sonic too Lmao
Right 😂
Makes sense. The better you know your weaknesses and shortcomings, the better you can compensate and strategist around them to minimize them which can only strengthen your play.
SAME LMAO
Agreed
Yessurrrr
I’d love to see a video like this for Samus/Dark Samus
Shield, jump, roll
These are good tips against most cheesy, low level sonic play. Great video as always M2K
everyone online: sonic is so broken, he must be banned
M2k: sonic players hate this trick
This is super awesome. I've always loved your commentary about smash. You are so even keeled and knowledgable. Its seriously so helpful! I hope you decide to do more characters. I have never been more enthralled by a 30 minute video on TH-cam.
Thanks!
Sonic mains HATE him! Find out how he does it in 3 steps. Number 2 will make you SD in real life.
As a Sonic Main, I HATE him!
I think this video is great but funnily enough, I hardly see sonic online anymore. Heck, I hardly see any of the classic WiFi characters like Ganondorf, King K. Rool, Little Mac, Banjo & Kazooie, Yoshi, Ike, Mega Man, Mr. Game & Watch, Inkling, Simon/Richter, Incineroar, Wii Fit Trainer, Zelda, King Dedede, Hero, Piranha Plant, Snake, R.O.B, Lucina, and Mii Gunner. What I see online the most nowadays is Lucas/Ness, Jigglypuff, Mario/Dr. Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Samus/Dark Samus, Roy/Chrom, Pac-Man, Mii Brawler, Bayonetta, Cloud, Terry, Joker, Bowser Jr, Bowser, Diddy Kong, Captain Falcon, Duck Hunt, Wolf, Falco, Shiek, Marth, all the Links, and Corrin.
Of the characters I see the most nowadays, the 5 most common ones for me are Lucas, Captain Falcon, Young Link, Cloud, and Jigglypuff. Of the classic WiFi characters, the 5 I see the least nowadays are Zelda, Sonic, Inkling, Snake, and Ganondorf. Has the online meta for the characters changed or something? Or is it just me?
People who played those characters may have been forced to change. People who saw them in a match could have dropped the match
@@ojutay8375 I play sonic and I think I can understand why people doesn't plat as him more,.
1-you get a character that one of his good options is to camp
2-No matter how you play(really, I sometimes tried to be more agressive instead of playing optimal), you won't get rematched, in the recent months, I think I had like 4 rematch for like 20 fights. So you feel like you are hated.
11:15
The knuckles in the background. Lol
oh wtf lol
Calm ya quills ppl it was just a small edit m2k made, Knux is fine.
Actually sonic's f-smash can cover Wii fit's ledge roll too.
Yeah the move is that good.
And it can outrange byleth.
Some might call him a Distance Demon
If your talking about her F smash that's just because she sticks her arm out. Normally it has less range but kind of silly there is no sour spot.
@@Zak-Z-Ninja I think it is mainly because sonic leans out when charging making byleth miss.Then takes a step in that increases his range.
@@ahmadkazan7994 that to
Outrange Byleth's what?
Jason is extremely good at explaining, really impressive
thanks!
Thank you, M2K! Very well put together!
I'm a heavy audio and graphic cue player and would like to share some further advice. It's important to differentiate between Spin Dash (downB) and Slingshot Spin Dash (sideB) as quick as possible.
Spin Dash - He will stay stationary while charging. There is more White 'comic' sparks and more smoke around Sonic while charging than sideB. For audio cue, you will hear a constant buzzing while they charge (a beep for every downB press).
Slingshot Spin Dash - Sonic will slide backward a bit as he charges. For audio cues, it will be a single, prolonged beep. A non-FullCharge Slingshot Spin Dash will ALWAYS have a 'lob shot' or bounce before it grounds itself again and shoots forward. During the rise of this, Sonic has i-frames. Respect this part (this was explained in depth in the video).
I like how this video's main objective is to teach people the Sonic MU but what it does for me is teach me to understand MY character better!:)
How to destroy sonic
1 - chili dogs to distract him
2 - call eggman
THANK YOU!!!! I’ve been waiting for something like this for forever
I hate how sonic is the ONLY fast character that doesn't excel at approaching.AND the only one may I add.AND the fastest.
@Hermaphrodeity yeah,getting a big combo on some stupid plays is hilarious.Especially when your opponent is left believing sonic is best in game.
I'd say he also has decent to good approach options like homingnattack and his aireals (up and back) are safe on shield.
Hiya, Sonic main here and I'd like to give my two cents on this
Spindash when fully charged can gain 6 more i-frames upon turning around
Also it might be better to simply be ready for homing attack to lock on, spot dodge for an easy punish
This is a good representation of how fights become conversations
I think it is a god send for other characters that sonic's hit box is like 10 times smaller than his hurt box so I think you can use grabs or throw smash attacks to counter an option of spindash.Though spindash is just free options and your just guessing.
The hurtbox of sonic is a mystery tbh. It randomly varifies depending on his actions.
@@unlikejay0 true,you don't if your attack going to clank,win or lose.
I love you for this. Not because I have counterplay to sonic, but because of your amount of knowledge and the general statements you made about counterplay in general, habits, and the like.
Sonic is a technical character
13:37
Mew2king kinda syncronized with Sonic
5:20 also with Ganondorf and i think incineroar sideB comand grab you can Just take Sonic without damage even if he jumps
Tho it Is Fairy difficult
I think command grabs can beat spindash.It's hit box is surprisingly really small so even normal grabs can work.
falcon side b
M2K “Sonic is also bad in lag, not just good”
Sonic Banners “I’m gonna choose to not hear that”
i’m lucky i play sheik, since she does well against sonic. it’s very difficult for sonic to whiff punish sheik, she has great burst options to interrupt the charge, and above all, needles are just an amazing anti-sonic tool that no other character has
True shiek espicially can counter sonic,if she was faster(Like captin falcon) she would be his worst match up.I still kinda feel bad for shiek mains when I air dodge out of there combo and land an uncharscd f-smash to get the lead back.
I’ve never lost to a sheik ever lmao I didn’t know they were supposed to have an advantage against sonic
I love this format. Have you considered making this for more characters? If yes, Pikachu and/or Pichu would be great!
I never liked playing against sonic in smash since brawl😂
I'm not hating, the hedgehog is too fast.Or maybe I'm just too slow lol
He is too fast even for his own frame data.
Ur 2 Slow
Lol
YOU'RE TOO SLOW!
Play Snake
What an absolute unsung hero you are for posting videos like this. Patch culture has conditioned too many people to complain until things are changed, instead of just learning and understanding what characters do.
Great video! Could be a really nice series for multiple characters
This isn't the video we wanted, but the video we needed
*Mew2King thoroughly explaining sonic's weaknesses*
me: *trying to figure out what direction the sunflower in the background is spinning in*
Sonic mains when you punish any attack (and recovery) with forward smash: "i outsmarted your outsmarting" (neutral B)
As a Sonic main, it makes me SO happy to see this. Thanks to M2K for clarifying that getting better at matchups is better than simply always complaining and in more extreme situations banning the character and his mains from having any fun period.
Mkleo in this moment: "WRITE THAT DOWN! WRITE THAT DOWN!!"
Why?
Is this a 30th anniversary present?
High-level matchup analysis like this is precisely the kind of TH-cam content the Ult community needs
I'm pretty confident that Sonic Mains are gonna watch this, and realize they
are in trouble-
Fantastic video! Now I know what no to do as Sonic lol
Good video Mew2King!
Personally as you mention in the video, your best friend will be the shield, as it protects you from many options of Sonic, playing camping helps quite a lot, mostly waiting for the opponent to make a mistake that costs him 20 or 30% damage... In my case being Main Isabelle, the game changes a bit as the Down B makes Sonic either jump the seed or stay on the other side of the stage, giving me the opportunity to attack in the distance with the Fair or Bair, is a game from far and a bit late because if you want to play aggressive, you can lose the match...
I hope this video will help other people who find it difficult to play against this character! 🎉
Sonic is a *good* character in Smash Ultimate.
Brilliant tips, I've struggled against B move spamming sonics for a while, but never did the research and looking at his frame data. Now I have things to focus on depending on what he does. Very helpful guide!
Ayy this is great! Thanks! Also, there is an option in training to display invincibility, so that might help with presentation.
So pretty much just roll on Stage or F-Air jump up from ledge if you're at early percent to avoid Short Hop N-Air and use ledge Jump at high percents to avoid being F-Smashed :)
Basically it's like most of your decisions should be based on your percent correct?
me who has low GSP with him: thanksssssssssssss
gsp does not mean anything
Yeah you could’ve got destroyed by little Timmy with his 1 stock ganondorf no rematch
If you are losing with Sonic online, I really don't know what to tell you....
Nota Robot well doesn’t spamming a few moves become adaptable?
@@kArchenOFFICAL I would agree but just look at the video. Sonic's moves can stall your opponent (play mind games with you) and attack whenever he sees an opening. Its not adaptable if the move is inconsistent. Can't shield too much or your shield breaks, can just shield out early because you get hit, you only have a couple frame window to shield right or parry specially with the lag online.
wow... ngl this is actually crazy good. most people on mu's explain it in such a 4Head way like "shield more lol" but m2k explained it really well and i found out a lot of new things here
M2k saving the online community
If anyone is looking for a counterpick character against Sonic, I suggest Link. Use his remote bomb to divide up the stage in half. Sonic players will often jump over it with spindash to approach. Link's Nair will almost always beat Sonic in the air. If he jumps or runs past you, throw out a boomerang. If he is across the stage and charging spindash for a long time, hit him with an arrow. Not to mention, he can KO Sonic much earlier than Sonic can KO him. I'm telling you all, Link does really well against Sonic.
Thk you. Time to tip the scales against the Blue blur
Thank you wise one, thank you
I play Link and just spam my wonderful nair as they spam spin dash and homing atk straight into it!
Any character with a long lasting aerial hitbox can destroy sonic mains who DONT think.
Even Dr. Mario works! Try it!
Honestly, the best strat against them, is just standing still, they literally have a mental breakdown.
Sonic rellies heavily on responding after you, and not starting an attack, and then just escaping.
Ive beaten every single Sonic as DDD(my main) like this, just wait for them to get close to you, they'll eventually have no other option.
Also, you can use their lack of combo creativity as an advantage, they will almost always use a forward air after charging at you, wich makes them predictable and an easy target for a spike.
Sonic benefits from lag on WiFi and lag on your attacks
thanks jason, i've finally learned how sonic works
My Duck Hunt is Sonics worst nightmare. I just shower them with gunman, cans and clay pigeons from accross the arena. So many projectiles makes a campy Sonic hard to get in. The cans are especially effective since it makes Sonic hard to spindash jump over the arena. Also, u need to add in a few smash moves to mix up his strategy. The clay pigeons make it hard for Sonic to run in for the grabs. If Sonic manages to get close, then the best strategy is to double jump out of there and quickly run to opposite side of arena and restart the same projectile strategy. Just rinse and repeat. Eventually, they will get frustrated and stop using the charged spindash move and will try running in with charging homing attack. Thats when u start mixing up smash atacks.
Duck and hunt has alot of tools to fight sonic but sonic is the real nightmare here when he lands a hit on you.
16:28
Roll intangibility does not linger as long as spotdodge intangibility. Always, universally, for every character, spotdodges are safer against Homing Attack.
Heavy characters: *sad noises*
How do you comment almost immediately on any smash video
HugLife hear me out, this might be crazy to hear but:
*N O T I F I C A T I O N S*
It's the Justin Y of Smash
Bowser has sliding ftilt at least, I'm sure the others have something (except Ganon cuz he sucks lol)
17:10 Keep in record Mew2King said fighting Sonic is cool :O
sonic main does anything:
people who watched this: ʰᵃʰᵃ ⁱ ᵉᵛᵉⁿ ᵈᵃʳᵉ ʸᵒᵘ ᵗᵒ ᵇʳᵉᵃᵗʰᵉ
As a person who plays sonic sometimes
I second a little bit of this only thing is lag will make you go into a grab early and BOOM sonic has you also lag will give sonic mains a chance to do something entirely different
As a Luigi main. I think you should make one of these on Luigi haha. Some people just have no idea how to fight him. Great vid! Very helpful
how to fight luigi:
1- Don't get grabbed so you have to be very safe playing, very defensive
2- ou have to assume that down b does what it wants.
3- when you are a up-b percent, don't do aerial that are not fast, you are just asking luigi to do it
Great explanations and very useful. I didn’t even recognize the different moves. Learnt a lot for this MU, thanks. More stuff like this on difficult MUs will be very appreciated, I am thinking about snake, richter, bayonetta... That’s characters we don’t see so often but can be very annoying if we don’t know what they are doing and how to counter.
Awesome jason make this a series. Learned so much about little mechanics I wouldn’t have otherwise. Also the top level play mentality stuff was super interesting.
I see a “How to beat” series coming up 😃
Terry
Luigi
Snake
Megaman
Palutena
Joker
PacMan
ROB
Little Mac (yes, not everyone knows)
EVERYONE except like echoes
How long does it take you to get all this information and study all this stuff on average? Just wondering.
Edit: Oh and also how would you test these things in your own?
There’s a website with all characters frame data listed
Eventhough I'm more of a `Sonic player` and less of a `Sonic hater`, I have to admit, I learnt alot.
I'm glad I now know what I should be doing against him however I'm sad cause he still is gonna be a big pain to deal with. There was no easy solution here just alot counter play options. Oh well I just will need to find a good sonic main to practice against uhgg
I used to struggle against sonic until I met a good sonic player at a local. We played a lot and I realize that sonic is very punishable if you know how his moves work. Now I find him easy to fight, but yeah it took a lot of mu practice and learning his moves before I could fight him at all.
Honestly, as a Sonic main i'd think this would be a viable trick against sonics but it all depends on timing. Not to mention sonic does have other tools to rack up damage as well, which i thoroughly abuse as well. But i will say that not every sonic player plays like me.
I actually played against m2k on elite and im super excited to get even better
I came looking for what to avoid when I’m playing as sonic, thank you
Sonic mains have a sense of pride. You have to crush that pride
You should do one of these for Palutena
I'm not really sure how many characters this applies to, but if you have at least one or two projectiles, try to use them more often. In my case I use Luigi's fireballs and plunger, they usually just hit sonic out of any spindash move, which will force them to eventually approach with other moves at some point. From there you can go on and fight like normal. This is usually more helpful when fighting sonics who like to s p i n a lot more than usual. You could also maybe try a move that covers a lot of space or one that stays out for a long time. Then again this is just from personal experience, so I'm sorry if this doesn't help much.
As a sonic main I see people do that a lot, and I usually counter this easily considering a non-fully charged side b bypasses projectiles for a few starting frames, it’s usually fast enough to get to the other character afterwards aswell
I'm a Sonic main learning how to counter the counter, thanks M2K
This video ALONE is worth making an ENTIRE PLAYLIST for this *1* VIDEO, lol!
Thank you M2K for being so neutral in this video! I'm a sonic main who only plays in offline tourney's and doesn't like the character online. A lot of people don't realize that high level sonic is based on a reaction game while online sonic is based on camping and abusing opponent mistakes. A lot of this is the same advice I give to my friends on the match up! Great video
All you have to do is play keep away.
I main Peach and Zelda and I can switch between a rushdown and a keepaway style pretty fast though.
hopefully he do this for more characters.
The guide we all needed.
What a hero.
M2K is an actual theory crafting god. This video is amazing!
thanks!
This type of videos are golden
More of this