It’s funny how they teased Hercules as Thor’s next adversary, but we all know in Thor 5 it’s just going to be them trying to out-dumb each other in various ways, and will probably become bros by the end
@@yurikendal4868 you nerds have turned into a bunch of tough guys all of a sudden .every marvel movie has to be dark and gritty like batman huh,how is that working out for them fanboys ?
@@mr.cloakofdagger3957 Batman worked amazingly for them, Marvel is failing at the moment and DC will probably surpass them if they keep going this way. Also stop using a space after your question marks and dots, it makes you look like an idiot (which you are).
I absolutely agree ! Christian Bale was completely and utterly wasted. We needed to see Gorr “the god butcher” do god butchering. Also he should have killed valkyrie or some main character ! I also think he should not have been killed off. He’s the god butcher however he had no real impact in the film
I blame the Russo's for not giving Thor or Hulk any purpose or direction in Endgame. Feels like Endgame was made by completely different people. They should have made him an overprotective king, and married to Lady Sif. Then in the 4th film he could have children of his own, and be helping the nine realms deal with the aftermath of the snap. All while being chased by Gorr as he tries to kill the gods. Focusing on the theme of fatherhood. They could have set the tone for phase 4, but instead they doubled down on jokes and the next phase did the same.
I think marvel gave Waitit the reigns based off of how popular Ragnarok was and figured it would be another hit so they let him do whatever he wanted. Well let's hope they learned from their mistake. I miss Thor from Thor 1 and avengers 😞
She and Thor haven't seen each other in 8 years and the first thing they discuss is her "superhero catchphrase"?? Which is like, barely a thing in the MCU. I guess they said Hulk Smash once kinda?
That's true, because Eternity doesn't interfere with the balance of nature, so he definitely wouldn't be giving out a prize to the first person who finds him like it's The Amazing Race or something. Good point!
I saw this movie in the theater on opening weekend because whatever. At first I gave it a 7/10. But then after spending a couple hours discussing it with my room mate, I started to notice a LOT of flaws and issues. Now its a 3/10 for me. People laugh at me for not just enjoying it for what it is. "Bruh, its a comedy, it totally works." No it really doesn't work. Guardians of the Galaxy vol 1 was a comedy that worked. (In my opinion) The entire plot line of this film was flawed and dumb. Gor wants to kill all gods because he believes they are selfish and uncaring about their people. So what does he do? He kidnaps the children of New Asgard to bait Thor out. What.... The introduction of this center of the universe thing. Any wish you want? No. Why did Thanos get the stones when he could have done this instead? Why did the Avengers try to figure out time travel when they could have done this? If Thor can grant his powers to others without reducing his own in the process, why didn't he do that to his fellow Avengers in each movie? If he can tell his hammer to protect his friends and family, why did he not tell the hammer to protect ALL his friends? I feel bad for Captain America. He spent a series of movies proving his worth and dedication to saving lives, and the pay off was him being worthy of the hammer. But Jane, she is worthy just because love. Screw you movie you piece of crap.
I remember , me and friends were laughing throughout the film..but once we left the theatre, it felt kind of blank..like what the hell happened. I didn't felt anything for thor, never felt scared for thor. No emotions except silly ness
Jane cancer scene should have been like Star Lords moms. Now that was a real cancer shot.😶 This was dissapointing. I feel marvel focusing too much on kids. Like 5 year olds. Not 10. Infinity war Thor was the best. That was the right tone for thor. The russos made thor perfect there. After a threat like Thanos. Thor should have been more serious about things...not joking around.🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
If Thor knew about a zone where any wish can be granted, wouldn't that have been useful post-Thanos snap? Wish the people back to life and Thanos can't do shit since he destroyed the stones.
@@Dylasophical the only new things out of Marvel that I enjoyed were Loki,What IF? and Spider-Man Far From Home. At least those shows and movies had a consistent theme of the multiverse that I could get behind
Well I actually really like his films outside of the MCU. He's a talented writer and director, but he completely missed the mark here and I don't think he should touch another comic book movie. He's only interested in making fun of it at this point.
I like a lot of Taika Waititi's work, but I will NEVER forgive him what what he did to HULK in Ragnarok. That was pretty much the beginning of the end of THE INCREDIBLE Hulk. The Gorr storyline is very serious and gruesome. Jane Foster's storyline is also very serious and her Mighty Thor is WAY MORE Savage than Odinson. But of course this is Chris Hemsworth's movie, so he can't be outdone. The MCU productions always had that perfect balance of Action, Drama, Violence with just the right sprinkle of humor. They really messed up this time and made Thor, who should have been one of the few heroes to come full circle, into a Buff Idiot. That's a shame.
This movie felt like Taika Watiti just massaging his ego for 2hrs straight. You can tell he has no interest in Thor and is wasting whatever mythos could be explored with this character. Christian Bale is criminally underused in the film, and for that I can't even give this rubbish film a pass.
So true - all of it. Absolute garbage. This film has singlehandedly put the MCU back bigtime. If Ragnarok was Batman Forever, this is Batman and Robin. I wasn’t a fan of Ragnarok either - I could see then where Taika was going to take Thor if he was given another film to make. My heart sunk more and more the further into the film I got. Utter shite. What the hell is Kevin Feige doing? Why he didn’t see a workprint of this and stop the damn thing?
I hate this movie so much. Zero emotional stakes. Really bad humor that just kept going and going and going. Bad CGI (not their fault, I guess Marvel's treatment of their VFX team blows). Nearly incoherent story. Complete disrespect for the story, characters and lore of the overarching narrative in which this movie exists. What makes it even worse is that there's actually a really awesome story in here, as well as a ton of excellent acting talent who could have told a very powerful story with the themes, plot and subject matter that we were presented, but it was completely and deliberately wasted because it seems like Taika Waititi doesn't give a rip about what he's doing because it's just a paycheck to fund the (admittedly much better) original projects he actually cares about. In making a mockery of all of the characters, it almost feels like he's mocking the audience for wanting and wanting to care about "a classic Thor adventure" like it's embarrassed of what it is while exploiting people's interest in it. This is basically everything wrong with the MCU right now dialed to eleven, and I sincerely hope to God and the spirits of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby that Marvel Studios takes these criticisms to heart and gets its crap together before they completely lose all of the good will that the Infinity Saga earned them (and at this point that good will is slipping away fast). After this movie, I dread the thought of what he has planned for his Star Wars movie, and I truly hope Taika Waititi has nothing more to do with writing or directing the Thor franchise. The 80s rock/metal vibe is cool. That can stay. The stupid, overly self-aware Whedonesque meta humor (for Thor and the MCU in general) needs to goooo. I'm there in a heartbeat if or when they decide to consistently put their best foot forward, but at this point, I don't know if I emotionally invest myself in the MCU anymore. I feel the same about Star Wars too. I'll see it if something looks good, and I'll judge things fairly, because I want to love these franchises, but as of right now, the hype is dead, and they need to get their act together to resuscitate it at this point. Disney in general is an absolute train wreck these days.
A few weeks ago I watched Multiverse of Madness on Disney+, I legit thought what the hell is happening with marvel. I was disappointed at first with Wanda Vision and all that Loki crap we got, but it really went downhill after that. I mean, their purpose earlier was to entertain the audience with a meaningful plot with fiction that really excites us, they were earning a lot back then too, but now it is all about fan service and "the agenda" to lure a certain audience. This one I didn't really bother to go and watch, found a clip on the internet of the first 10 minutes and oh lord how happy I was to not pay for this utter shit. Marvel phase 4 really sucks at some different level, and at the worst time when DC is delivering better movies and we have shows like The Boys.
Casual fans: omg that movie was perfect, better than ragnarok. True fans: umm did you watch a different movie than love and thunder? Disney: just consume products even if it sucks then get red to consume more products. Casual fans: yes master you are never wrong. True fans: I'm out cause you don't care about standards anymore.
I’m a casual fan and I did enjoy this film however I think for the true hardcore fans delight. this time it didn’t even work with most casual fans the box office numbers have been dropping dramatically. So if there is another Thor movie I believe Marvel will go back to serious Thor and say goodbye to Waititi. True fans even though you got a film you hated : well you guys won, since even most casual fans hated the movie so Marvel will listen to you. Now casual fans don’t be worried maybe we find a middle ground. Not too light hearted not too serious. Something like the first IronMan film which was perfectly in the middle. Sure some casual fans like me did enjoy this but we were minority at least that’s what box office numbers say. So in case Marvel does another Thor movie the tone will change again.
There's also a question that's been running through my mind ever since I saw it: If Eternity has the ability to grant wishes, and can bring a deceased child back from the dead, why didn't the Scarlet Witch attempt to reach Eternity and attempt to wish Billy and Tommy Maximoff back into existence?
I guess their reasoning is that only special beings have the ability to find Eternity's location?......I really don't know, because it doesn't show how Gorr found out about it or how he knew where the fuck the center of the universe even was. Lol, Eternity now brings up a lot of questions in retrospect.
@@Dylasophical "Special beings"? You do realize that Wanda Maximoff is the Scarlet Witch, who is prophesized to be the most powerful magic-wielder in existence? Are you trying to tell me that the Darkhold didn't even mention Eternity in passing?
@@Wolffman109 Look, I am just trying to put my mind in the position of the people writing these films. Maybe the Necrosword had some information on it? I don't know lol. I would THINK that because Wanda has so much knowledge about the multiverse, (enough to chase America through it), she might know of something like Eternity. But what's even dumber is that Thor acts like he also knows about Eternity, and he didn't even attempt to mention it during Infinity War or Endgame.
While I'm somewhere in the middle between the shills who can't say anything significantly wrong about recent MCU films and series, and people who absolutely can't find anything good about them, I enjoyed a few parts of the recent ones like this Thor movie, but was also disappointed in a lot of it. A lot of the criticisms your channel, and others, hit home with me. But the movie is more flawed than merely the sheer amount of humor undercutting many scenes - which is about as much as access media and select TH-camrs will admit. There was potentially some good-to-great story left on the cutting room floor here, and a lot that never even filmed, because the director and writers never made it happen. They were too busy ad-libbing or writing irrelevancies into the script. So we got an unfinished product with a lot of promise, that wasn't utilized. I was actually breaking up in tears in the final scene where Gorr was realizing he could wish for his daughter back, instead of killing all the gods, and I think a lot more people could have felt that if his backstory was done better, and the rest of the film wasn't so undermined. I bought into the Gorr scenes more than any other part in the film. I felt the cancer storyline was largely wasted. And I think time was poorly spent on injecting certain political narratives into the product. This isn't a Progressive vs Conservative thing. It's a Progressive vs story, character, and world-building thing. So much money, talent, and effort was put into something that was never created properly.
I like the arc of Thor in Ragnarok (not needing the hammer), and then in infinity war (I thought he was amazing) and in end game (he was alright), but now it’s just…..what the sh*t
Also, basically everything you point out in this review were my fellings after watching the movie, exactly. Particularly, how silly the writing indeed is - how out-of place the firstscene is and how conveniently the god-killing weapon appears before Gorr. It's really as if its was written by some really low-skilled amateur.
I’ll like to know who green light this shit, it fell like a parody of a marvel movie. The cgi is shit, bad jokes thought out the movie, really bad villain almost everything is bad
For real though...its Disney...this is mostly Disneys fault...they are incapable of allowing any serious themes to be explored. Their only message is always, 'love is super good people'
if a film is bad, any self respecting director would blame him/herself, because it's true: it's the director's job to manage all the internal and external factors to create something good out of the chaos. u cant even pass the blame to the writer because taika wrote the script.
The problem is they let taika do whatever he wanted.. Ragnorok was good, because it was written by someone else..someone who knew what they were doing. .taika actually took pride in not knowing ANYTHING about the characters, even said he was making something to piss off the fans!! Ego much!? As a fellow kiwi, I disown him..he's lost to hollyweird, and he's quickly disappearing up his own ass..ifnot tessa's.. just gross, whole disgusting attitude..
Chris Hemsworth, having a room temperature IQ, hates Thor and is a bad influence on Taika. That would explain his fall from grace. Hey, let's just laugh and have fun! - Marvel: "we're in!"
Classic sequel syndrome. "hey, this worked, let's do it again but more of it." Super forgettable movie. As much as I hated waiting for new content in Phases 1-3, the way Marvel is cranking stuff out right now is exposing some seams.
I blame it all on Melissa McCarthy...that woman could make any plot horrible...I swear she has never been in a movie better then a 3...I think she might be a talent vampire.
It's all taika..he wrote it..he made all the decisions.. he fucked this up ..and he meant to.. he wanted to piss off the fans.. who knows why..he said it.. America can have him, he's not a kiwi now.. we aren't up our own asses, sniffing our own farts , like he is nowadays..
Waititi is so ignorant with the lore he’s adapting as well. Valhalla isn’t Heaven. It’s the place where half the fallen warriors of each battle go, selected and guided by the Valkyries, which happens because that’s where they train for Ragnarok. See how many issues that one sentence had? Ragnarok has happened, so Valhalla is not a thing anymore, the Valkyries have supposedly been eradicated save for one, so there’s no one to escort the fallen there, and Jane wouldn’t have a good time at all if she went to Valhalla. She was a regular person for 99.5% of her life, and now she’d be in a place where she’d have to be in battles every single day for the rest of eternity, with no superpowers. That’s hell for a regular 21st century person.
Great point! Ragnarok is done and there are no active Valkyries. I didn't realize this huge storytelling failure. I guess Marvel doesn't give a crap about their own storytelling lore or the myths that they appropriate.
Thor: Love and Thunder is basically a compilation of SNL skits with 1 - 5 jokes per minute most of which docent land, where nobody told Christian Bale that he was staring in a comedy. So you have Chris Hemsworth doing Tropic Thunder type of acting and Christan Bale doing Macbeth the whole thing just comes off as extremely cringe.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Chris Hemsworth isn't someone I would call talentless, or rather the opposite. I think he would have succeeded in anything if he put his mind to it.. Bodybuilding, modeling, acting etc. I think the opposite is true for Christian Bale, I think he would be genuinely unpleased if he wasn't an actor.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Infinity Cones” gag was so Taika could please the Disney Park marketing team. The more toy models he gives, the more money he makes.
T R A S H I used to think only the WB didn't know what to do with it's characters. I was wrong. At least they aren't over producing a constant faucet of trash.
"At least they aren't over producing a constant faucet of trash." debatable: I have not liked anything Marvel/Disney has released in awhile and the upcoming line up looks like more of this trash. She-Hulk: do you really want to watch a hero use a dating app to hook up with a random dude for casual sex? It has no business in a Marvel based show and should be left for Sex in the City. I also do not care to see the characters discuss whether Steve Rogers was a virgin or not. Again sexuality has no business in these shows. I have no interest in that yet that is what they are shoveling because they think it is "funny" but it just isn't.
My mother died too from cancer ! i'm sorry for your loss. I was very uncomfortable how funny they treated cancer.... even cancer to them was a joke ! I miss my mom.
I agree 100% about your opinions on Thor (the character) Thor's “character growth” was barely allowing him to grow as a character. He just stays the same jocky man child he was from the first Thor movie. Having him not learned a damn thing throughout his own arc. It's all just jokes and rock music and alcohol and more jokes and more alcohol and even more jokes... Did I forget to say jokes? Yeah a whole lot of jokes. Even when they try to take something very serious they still have to add a layer of comedy to it. And the final battle was way too cartoony and clownish. Like why would I care about a little girl shooting laser beams out of her teddy bear. This movie doesn't feel like that much of a Thor movie nor does it feel like a “superhero”movie. The writing for this movie feels like fanfiction written and given to the studio by a drunk and toxic fan. Like I said before this movie feels so average.
Due to some of the lack of continuity control in latter day MCU films Thor actually showed all his growth as a hero and was in peak form in Infinity War but yeah everything else since then (and at the same time with Ragnarok, not sure which was first) he's just a dumb jock male bimbo for women to swoon at (or loser in Endgame.)
I’m sick of Marvel and what their doing with the MCU I’ve actually for once skipped a Marvel installment twice. I skipped Ms Marvel, and now I’m skipping this one. I can’t stand what their doing to this once beautiful franchise, over 10 years of build up just to be wrecked in only 2 installments.
Can we stop pretending Waititi is a good director? I mean, seriously, you bring up issues such as “Taika seemed to focus more on comedy rather than what makes sense”, and that was present throughout Ragnarok, then saying “he’s too keen on making fun of Thor”, he made Thor a caricature in Ragnarok too. Or having stupid jokes that get dragged on and on, that’s present throughout his entire filmography, Ragnarok included. “It didn’t make sense in-universe”, again, happened repeatedly in Ragnarok. “This is the love of his life and he barely cares”, that’s in theme with Waititi’s Thor, since he spent a millennium with the Warriors Three, and he didn’t even acknowledge their deaths. That’s what I can’t understand with people, every single issue they seem to have with this, was present in Ragnarok, as well as every other film he’s made.
I'm with you on Ragnarok. Its more bare able but fuck his goofball Thor sucks. I wish he was more like him comic counterpart just tweaked for the movies. He's such a badass and Waititi butchered it. I was so pumped for this movie seeing Zeus but they messed that up too. Thor should have had even ground to stand on since Odin is on the same level as Zeus but ofcourse they want to turn it into a sex party
This, so much this. Ragnarok disgusted me as a project. "But it was a breath of fresh air, they didn't know what to do with Thor, have you watched Dark World" stfu, ass clown is not the only direction to go for a tragic and interesting character like Thor.
This Waikiki guy came out of nowhere I have never heard of him or seen his movies before Ragnarok and now everyone is saying that he is some kind of comedic legend lmao everyone acts like fourth thor is just a miss from legendary director, could someone name me the best movie from this guy? Want to witness his genius directing apart from thors
@@hombre-lobo5673 I’ve seen most of what he’s made, mostly for analytical purposes. He’s a one trick pony who’s one trick is basically setting every scene up as a joke. If you don’t have prior exposure to his stuff, it catches you off guard and can elicit laughs. If you know about it, it becomes obnoxious really fast, it’s why everyone turned on him this time around, despite doing the exact same thing. In order for that to happen, every character has to be turned into a 2D caricature, which is seemingly the only kind of writing he’s capable of. He basically fooled people into liking what he did, and now they’re waking up to it. The one movie everyone turns to to tell you how good he is, is Jojo Rabbit, a movie with the exact same issues, that manages to render Νazis and the Ηοlocaust completely unintimidating. It’s basically more of the same, he just gets away with it there the most because the main character has the same age and maturity his brain is stuck in.
I didn't hate it either but it was sad and Thor deserves better. Gorr was pretty cool though because of Bale's acting and Gorr's powers. I even liked Jane for the most part at least when she had her powers she seemed cool and kinda humble Portman's performance is the good bit. Her randomly having this power makes no sense though and her abrupt power up was rank bullshit.... idk I just liked her in some parts I guess. God Butcher comic was 1000x better. Gorr should've had a longer exposition... and the swords ties to Hella and Knull should have been explained. Wish he got to the part where he crucified a bunch of gods, especially Volstagg. He should have also wanted revenge for his entire species and his personal family. Also why didn't we get Gorr killing gods in the past when Thor was young, or Thor answering people's prayers on Indigar.... only to find Gorr killed Indigar's old gods. The scene where Thor made it rain on that planet and saved a bunch of aliens he knew nothing about and then told the people not to worship him but to take care of each other was beautiful in the book and they didn't put it in.... this movie failed.
I didn't hate the movie, but it sure made me hate Taika Waititi. I've only seen his other movie Ragnarok and that's all I needed, I never need to hear another Taika Waititi joke again.
Taika really needs a cool pill or needs a really good down to Earth assistant for he is way too hyperactive for his own good. If one has seen his interviews, they know what I'm talking about. He is a positive man with good intentions, but needs to grow up some.
i like how people try to defend this movie by saying it's a comedy. i'm like even still it's not funny, you can't honestly tell me you think this movie is funny. fanboys are the worst, they are one the reason that these movies will keep being shit. cause they can't give constructive feedback everything has to be positive with them.
It's a shame coz they had all the Ingredients to make an awesome movie and one of the darkest characters in marvel and played by an incredible actor and they churned out this..
THANK YOU! This movie was a dumb mess AND IT HAS SO MUCH PADDING!? It only got a 120-minute runtime and Taika needed three flashbacks with him narrating it? It's so ridiculous and anaemic like they didn't even write the script before filming. Also why is Thor talking like George of the Jungle? He's not just dumbed down he's horribly out of place in this. I can't believe that no-one in the marvel camp looked at the dailies and went "oh no we need rewrites".
Also yes, you're right why didn't they expand on Bale's characters backstory? They had the time, but they didn't do anything with him. It's just not a good movie overall, all the components are there but the script and the directing let it down immensely.
22:41 so I guess that means Mjolnir was also killing Cap, Vision, Odin, Thor and all the other people that have picked the thing up? Just another of the awful parts to this horrible movie.
Sorry to hear about the panic attacks - I've been through similar recently, which is one of the reasons I've not posted on my TH-cam channel for several months. I totally agree with every point you raised. It feels like there was enough plot threads to have made a trilogy, ideally with the first being the interstella rump with the Guardians of the Galaxy that Endgame promised us. The middle could show Gor in more detail - including him slaying some actual Gods - and the final film as a team-up with Jane as she takes the hammer as the only way to help the man she loves, and gives her life to save him.
The motivation of Gorr fails flat in the middle of the movie. He wants to kill all the gods, because they´re selfish. So his plan is to kidnap children. But if Gods don´t care, why would Thor bother to risk his life to save the Kids? And If Thor does care, doesn´t it prove to Gorr he is wrong? And why do not wish for the ressurrection of his daughter from the begining?
Yep yep. They completely missed an opportunity there. Because Thor could have proven Gorr wrong by showing that not all gods are bad, and reversely, I think Thor should have questioned his place as a God when he found out Zeus was a piece of shit. A lot of missed opportunities for great character depth.
Like for real this movie is hot GARBAGE no argument … go right now watch Thor 1 and tell me how different that movie is. Thor 1 is just designed to entertain you!! it’s emotional, funny and It’s more realistic than you think all the characters grounded and normal. It’s a beautiful movie with heartfelt moments and I probably wouldn’t describe that movie so intensely if the MCU didn’t spiral down so hard like this.I took the first phases for granted.
This movie was horrible. A huge disappointment. A sad attempt of trying to be funny on what should have been a more serious movie considering Gods were actually being killed. Gorr was nothing like this in the comics. Gorrs character development seemed very rushed. The Gods that were alive seemed to be imbeciles. The only thing good were the special effects. Those goats should have been put on a spit over an open fire. Yes they were in the comics but no need for that abnoxious sound through out the entire movie. We get that they are loud. This director should stop making Thor movies. As for the music it's very similar to some animated films that use one artist. Spirit : Stallion of the Cimarron is a good example using Brian Adams for the soundtrack. . Basically it was a very long Guns and Roses video. I am so glad I streamed it and didn't have to shell out movie prices to go see it. To reiterate, it was a huge, no massive disappointment and a disservice to the Thor comic book lore, more so Gorr the God Killer.
Cannot agree more. I’m disappointed this movie has already made as much as it has. Money speaks and I pray that more and more people don't reward Taika 'I'll ruin your mythos in a minute, baby' Waititi and the woke, post Endgame MCU went full unoriginal, lazy, formulaic hack on this one and tried to cash in on and rehash Ragnarok's same exact beats but with the cringe, kiddie humour dialed up to 11 and at the expense of Thor, who was entirely character assassinated.. This is the worst MCU movie I've ever seen. A tonal catastrophe, muddled, far too short, jokes at every single second and, as I say, Thor has been entirely character assassinated to be a bumbling, insufferable (now the Guardians look bored and annoyed whenever he's doing anything), silly idiot who weeps at movies on dates with Jane, calls his hammer like it's a dog and annoys everyone he's around (Heimdall's son gets bored of him and tells him to go away, the Guardians look exasperated by him now being an idiot, Valkryie and Jane look at him like a fool when he, for some random reason, falls out of the Bifrost and destroys part of New Asgard like he accidentally destroys the temple of the people he's trying to save). I am astonished how bad this movie is. You get brief moments where Thor acts like Thor but then he resumes being this new airhead simpleton jock character that Taika and Chris are loving to turn him into. It's such a shame, there's a really brilliant outline here but it's just absolutely saturated, stuffed to the gills with silliness and tension breaking comedy and character assassination (with Thor). Like Gorr. Bale is predictably phenomenal as him but he’s so, so underutilised and they completely avoid some of the best moments of his comic run like the Godbomb and deny him any kind of actual character like: Is he evil or is it just the sword whispering to him and manipulating him, it’s never explained? We literally get an hour and 20 minutes into this movie that doesn’t even reach 2 hours long, before we actually get a meaningful, legitimate conversation between Thor and Gorr, aside from one fight where they throw a few small exchanges with no substance. We see next to none of his brutality against the Gods like in the comic where it’s more of a haunting, murder mystery involving Gods being hunted like prey, tortured extensively and butchered. He’s truly tame here. He kills one God at the beginning of the movie, Thor finds Sif in the aftermath of his next butchering (they don’t even explain why she’s been gone for about 9 years in universe and instead make time for jokes despite her having lost an arm) and then Zeus references some killings. That’s literally it. You get absolutely nothing in terms of actual God butchering. Where was his torture of Thor from the comics? Why didn’t they write it so that Gorr had met Thor years before like in the comics? He’s so disappointingly handled and truly, truly surface level, a Malekith/Ivan Vanko level of mishandling and lack of care by the script. unfortunately for Bale. And again, seriously, why is Thor an absolute bumbling, aloof, head in the clouds simpleton now? Seriously, did he get CTE from all his years fighting bad guys? He acts like someone who's not all there and the joke is that the characters are written and directed to mirror that. Notice how loads of times in the movie, characters look annoyed or bored with Thor, like he's a bad smell, because he's written to act like an annoying, absent-minded screw up? He flies away and then...for some reason...smashes into and breaks one of the pillars in New Asgard, much to the dismay of the people, which already is a copy of an earlier part of the movie where he smashes the sacred temple that the whole point was to preserve? And it's all because of Taika's obsessive need to write jokes for 4-year-olds. It is literally farting in the bathtub, laughing at the bubbles level of humour. Taika Waititi forgot the first rule: Never go full retard. And why did Thor go back to using Mjolnir? Obviously it’s his longstanding weapon in the comics but in the context of the MCU, Stormbreaker (exclusively Beta Rey Bill’s in the comic) was the upgrade, the King’s weapon, why did he regress back to Mjolnir? I'm honestly shocked how awful it is. Thank God I didn't pay money to be disappointed by this and fund the Mouse. Oh, and I adored Ragnarok. Absolutely loved it, aside from the odd one or two goofy moments that encapsulate this entire movie. That's the problem. Taika saw what people loved in Ragnarok (playing popular rock music over Thor - 4 Guns N Roses tracks, 4?!, I love Guns but 4 tracks from the same band as well as a character being named after them and Guns being referenced? - the play scene with Matt Damon, Luke Hemsworth and Sam Neil, Thor shrieking like a little girl at the Grandmaster) and just turned that all up to 11 and repeated it all again but without any rhyme or reason. I haven't seen Eternals, which people gave bad reviews, but this movie is just appallingly bad. It's exactly as advertised though. A spoiled, 6 year old's fever dream of a movie, which is exactly what Hemsworth and Waititi said it would be, that Waititi had the 'imagination of a child' but sadly the MCU, banking on Ragnarok's success, let him have free reign to butcher Thor. Now I know how the people who hated Ragnarok felt for what they saw as Thor being made into a goofy idiot. I didn't feel that there but I 100% felt it here. ‘I’ll ruin your mythos in a minute baby’. Thanks Taika, you did.
completely agree with you. Marvel movies are best when they stay true to who the character is which is why I absolutely love Iron Man 1, Winter Soldier to name some examples. Go read over 50 years of Thor comics ( like I have ) and you will learn he is not a comedic buffoon at all. He is over 1500 years old and I am certain in that time he should have developed wisdom, especially since he needs to exercise his wisdom in order to be the ruler of Asgard (Thor movie #1) but since then he has abandoned that course to become a comedic buffoon. Even the way he talks is annoying; listen to the way he speaks when the unfunny screaming goats are first introduced, very cringe inducing. Why his character is forced in this direction actually makes me very frustrated because of what they could have created.
@@Thynqikan 100%. Thor in the comics is, to me, equal to Captain America as an absolute beacon of hope and goodness. I love when he fights alone against Glory to protect the earth, the planet he most loves, given that he is it's protector and son of Gaea. He is by far my favourite comic character and I am absolutely routinely appalled by how they turn him into a 30 IQ idiot who is simply detestable because he's suddenly had an off-screen aneurysm. Thor in the comics might not be a scientific genius but he is intelligent and wise and his status as a God is something very much respected among the Avengers and other heroes. He's a force to be reckoned with, but also a very real, very useful help, for any in the universe. They've now introduced the Celestials, how amazing would it have been to show Thor alone against the Celestials, battling to save Pangoria from their Judgement? But no. He is now a total clown, an absolutely useless imbecile who confuses and bores the surrounding characters and the audience. You are absolutely spot on, them refusing him to be King in favour of Valkryie 'the enslaver' who twice refused him helping their people in favour of him remaining as a slave for the Grandmaster, before she then actively went to hunt him down only to be guilt tripped by Loki, was a very telling moment for me in Endgame, I was so disappointed. He should have been made King, and it would have coincided perfectly with him becoming King just a few years back. They should be ashamed for plummeting this brilliant character, who rightfully should act as the MCU's bridge to the cosmos, same as he was in the comics.
It's disappointing that Marvel's best project in this Phase was Shang Chi, which i thought was just okay. The Eternals actually looks better and better compared to what's coming out now. Very very sad, and a trend of the main character being sidelined is also ruining the movies, with Thor, Doctor Strange, and black widow.
the all black sword called to gorr and showed him the way to that hidden mirage. it also chose him because of his rage atm. we definitely needed WAY MORE Gorr!!!
I agree with the most disappointing besides Iron Man 3. I've never understood why people liked that film when it had the worst bait-and-switch I've ever seen with the villain, (and the CGI one we got was terrible)... and 75% of the movie was Robert Downey Jr. being swarmy or nice to some random kid and NOT Iron Man. But yeah... this movie actively annoyed me.
remember, taika said in interview that gorr would be the best villain in mcu just before this film came out. by that time the film has been screened for the studio execs, so he would know the reactions were not what he was hoping for. yey he forged ahead saying gorr would be the best, as if trying to convince himself the reactions were wrong. i think the life lesson here is... stay humble and dont talk shit. ragnarok's success and his oscar have made him think he can do the f he wants and people will just love it.
Gorr just finding the sword is kiiiinnndddaaaa how it happens in the comic. He jus gets it from Knull. It's not that dramatic. Not that the way he got it was necessarily bad in the comics but it wasn't some great way either.
So thor and mjolnir can travel a billion miles per hour to the center of the universe to catch up to gorr. Also shouldn't the gods have respect for thor for fighting thanos the being that can kill all of them
Apparently Taika WANTED to make a children's movie that not only appeals to children first and foremost, but feels as if it was MADE by a child. He worked with many child consultants to craft his movie, most notably his own children and Chris Hemsworth's daughter, who IIRC cameos in the movie. He wanted to break the pattern of MCU movies being made for adults and get the children involved to make them feel as if they're a part of the story.
Honestly, Taiki was thinking the wrong way. I mean, CS Lewis once said, "A children's story that can be enjoyed only by children, is not a good children's story in the slightest".
the best part is, its marvel fans who are upset about this film being bad, yet other marvel fans fighting those same fans saying they will just hate on anything.. i dont understand the marvel fandom.....
All your points are 100% correct ! and about his daughter we didin't care.... and about Gorr only killed one God.... and about those fucking goats. This movie is embarrassing indeed !
Dude this was an excellent breakdown. That stupid lightning bolt was never necessary to fight gore, and in the context of the movie, how powerful thor was he didn't need help with gore. We need the Russo's to take on Thor 5
Man, you are absolutely right on everything you said and you make me realize some points of that awful movie that I didn't when I watched it. I am 101 percent with you!
You know how they could have easily avoided any confusion and hurt feelings around "Lady-Thor"? Don't treat "Thor" like a title or a mantle, because it's not, it is the name of the son of Odin. Jane Foster could have come up with her own superhero name or she could have continued the use of her human name. And lets be real here, this isn't about Jane Foster, fictional character, this is about the creators of the femthor character wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted the immediate attention and built-in audience that came with body-snatching an existing character, but at the same time they want to shame and guilt those fans who point out the hypocrisy in trying to create a feminist icon out of a gender-swapped male character.
She was called Mighty Thor in the comics I believe, so they stuck with that. She was one of the best parts of the movie in my opinion, and the return of a classic character, so I'm kinda pissed she was killed off at the end instead of being a part of the future MCU, even if it did make for a great ending. Maybe the stuff with Kang the Conqueror could change that outcome a bit? That's a long shot for sure, but it would be great.
It’s funny how they teased Hercules as Thor’s next adversary, but we all know in Thor 5 it’s just going to be them trying to out-dumb each other in various ways, and will probably become bros by the end
Who the he'll is we stranger ?
Hercules was an after credit scene and as usual yet another Disney character survives a chest stabbing
@@yurikendal4868 you nerds have turned into a bunch of tough guys all of a sudden .every marvel movie has to be dark and gritty like batman huh,how is that working out for them fanboys ?
@@mr.cloakofdagger3957 Dude you have the mindset and writing of an 11 yr old. Delete your comment lol
@@mr.cloakofdagger3957 Batman worked amazingly for them, Marvel is failing at the moment and DC will probably surpass them if they keep going this way. Also stop using a space after your question marks and dots, it makes you look like an idiot (which you are).
This movie is a literal joke. Even Thor the Dark World takes its plot more seriously.
I might rather watch that film again. It's close.
I 100% would watch dark world over love and thunder. I'm never watching love and thunder again.
@@Crazyoldman84 absolutely agree.
@@Crazyoldman84 yep, at least it has some of the best Thor and Loki dialogue in the MCU
Sad but true
I absolutely agree ! Christian Bale was completely and utterly wasted. We needed to see Gorr “the god butcher” do god butchering. Also he should have killed valkyrie or some main character ! I also think he should not have been killed off. He’s the god butcher however he had no real impact in the film
Taika should never direct another Thor movie ever again
Or any movie at all...
@@jay4you853 That would be a service to cinema as a whole
Yeah. He's doing a star wars movie. I think I'll pass on them
@@yurikendal4868 They’ll give those to anyone these days…
@@alexman378 yeah. Incompetent is the new standard in Hollywood
I blame the Russo's for not giving Thor or Hulk any purpose or direction in Endgame. Feels like Endgame was made by completely different people. They should have made him an overprotective king, and married to Lady Sif. Then in the 4th film he could have children of his own, and be helping the nine realms deal with the aftermath of the snap. All while being chased by Gorr as he tries to kill the gods. Focusing on the theme of fatherhood. They could have set the tone for phase 4, but instead they doubled down on jokes and the next phase did the same.
Love and thunder makes me not want dr.doom in MCU treat him like Zeus.
I'm VERY worried about how they'll portray Dr. Doom......
Yep DC did an awesome version of Zeus looks badass like an actual god and we get old fat goofy Russell crow 🤦🏽♂️
agreed
I think marvel gave Waitit the reigns based off of how popular Ragnarok was and figured it would be another hit so they let him do whatever he wanted. Well let's hope they learned from their mistake. I miss Thor from Thor 1 and avengers 😞
They didn't learn anything
She and Thor haven't seen each other in 8 years and the first thing they discuss is her "superhero catchphrase"?? Which is like, barely a thing in the MCU. I guess they said Hulk Smash once kinda?
Eternity was treated as a place as opposed to its own being and agency which would NOT have included giving out wishes.
That's true, because Eternity doesn't interfere with the balance of nature, so he definitely wouldn't be giving out a prize to the first person who finds him like it's The Amazing Race or something. Good point!
@@Dylasophical watiti just didn't care and it shows
I saw this movie in the theater on opening weekend because whatever. At first I gave it a 7/10.
But then after spending a couple hours discussing it with my room mate, I started to notice a LOT of flaws and issues. Now its a 3/10 for me.
People laugh at me for not just enjoying it for what it is. "Bruh, its a comedy, it totally works."
No it really doesn't work.
Guardians of the Galaxy vol 1 was a comedy that worked. (In my opinion)
The entire plot line of this film was flawed and dumb. Gor wants to kill all gods because he believes they are selfish and uncaring about their people. So what does he do? He kidnaps the children of New Asgard to bait Thor out. What....
The introduction of this center of the universe thing. Any wish you want? No. Why did Thanos get the stones when he could have done this instead? Why did the Avengers try to figure out time travel when they could have done this?
If Thor can grant his powers to others without reducing his own in the process, why didn't he do that to his fellow Avengers in each movie? If he can tell his hammer to protect his friends and family, why did he not tell the hammer to protect ALL his friends?
I feel bad for Captain America. He spent a series of movies proving his worth and dedication to saving lives, and the pay off was him being worthy of the hammer. But Jane, she is worthy just because love.
Screw you movie you piece of crap.
Remember when villains didn't have to be corrupted in order to be the villain?
hopefully Dr. Doom won't be emasulated too.
@@portopottybreath9375 don't get your hopes up. He doesn't have good odds
@@portopottybreath9375 he was ruined in the fantastic four movie
I remember , me and friends were laughing throughout the film..but once we left the theatre, it felt kind of blank..like what the hell happened. I didn't felt anything for thor, never felt scared for thor. No emotions except silly ness
I had the same feeling......But with less laughter LOL
Infinity Conez is the MCU equivalent to having a 9/11 themed ice cream shop in New York
YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!
Jane cancer scene should have been like Star Lords moms. Now that was a real cancer shot.😶 This was dissapointing. I feel marvel focusing too much on kids. Like 5 year olds. Not 10. Infinity war Thor was the best. That was the right tone for thor. The russos made thor perfect there. After a threat like Thanos. Thor should have been more serious about things...not joking around.🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Gorr has the potential to be one of the main villains for Phase 4 (introducing many other gods), but noooooooooo Taika made him a mf joke!! WTF
Ikr, Gorr the god butcher? More like Gorr the child kidnapper
If Thor knew about a zone where any wish can be granted, wouldn't that have been useful post-Thanos snap?
Wish the people back to life and Thanos can't do shit since he destroyed the stones.
I think this movie killed the MCU for me.
Totally fair, man. Many people are saying the same thing.
@@Dylasophical the only new things out of Marvel that I enjoyed were Loki,What IF? and Spider-Man Far From Home. At least those shows and movies had a consistent theme of the multiverse that I could get behind
That close up face shot of Bale makes him look like Uncle Fester taking a dump.
Yes, it does indeed. LOLOL
Maybe he pushed out the script!
Ragnarok > Thor > The Dark World >>>>>>>>>>> Love and Thunder
I couldn't believe what I was watching
The fact that they won't even fully cover cancer tell me Daredevil series is in trouble.
Taika Waititi shouldn’t be allowed near ANY MOVIE SET outside of dumb and dumber or ace Ventura. That’s his speed. Maybe
Well I actually really like his films outside of the MCU. He's a talented writer and director, but he completely missed the mark here and I don't think he should touch another comic book movie. He's only interested in making fun of it at this point.
Trash movie. Marvel now thinks that they can get away with anything these days....and so badly written movies and shows keeps piling up in MCU...
Imagine if Gorr was a disillusioned Asgardian and the first god he killed was Lady Sif
Interesting......
I like a lot of Taika Waititi's work, but I will NEVER forgive him what what he did to HULK in Ragnarok. That was pretty much the beginning of the end of THE INCREDIBLE Hulk.
The Gorr storyline is very serious and gruesome.
Jane Foster's storyline is also very serious and her Mighty Thor is WAY MORE Savage than Odinson. But of course this is Chris Hemsworth's movie, so he can't be outdone.
The MCU productions always had that perfect balance of Action, Drama, Violence with just the right sprinkle of humor.
They really messed up this time and made Thor, who should have been one of the few heroes to come full circle, into a Buff Idiot.
That's a shame.
This movie felt like Taika Watiti just massaging his ego for 2hrs straight. You can tell he has no interest in Thor and is wasting whatever mythos could be explored with this character.
Christian Bale is criminally underused in the film, and for that I can't even give this rubbish film a pass.
They need to stop letting T.W. do interviews. Being high AF isn't funny and he always looks like he is a half a line away from going psycho.
We saw him kill just one God in the most anticlimactic way lol. This movie was pure trash.
Someone please tell me this is taika’s last MCU movie😩
So true - all of it. Absolute garbage. This film has singlehandedly put the MCU back bigtime. If Ragnarok was Batman Forever, this is Batman and Robin.
I wasn’t a fan of Ragnarok either - I could see then where Taika was going to take Thor if he was given another film to make. My heart sunk more and more the further into the film I got. Utter shite. What the hell is Kevin Feige doing? Why he didn’t see a workprint of this and stop the damn thing?
Ragnarok was the beginning of the end of the HULK.
The only good thing about this movie is that audiences finally started realizing Waititi is a one trick pony and a talentless one at that
I hate this movie so much. Zero emotional stakes. Really bad humor that just kept going and going and going. Bad CGI (not their fault, I guess Marvel's treatment of their VFX team blows). Nearly incoherent story. Complete disrespect for the story, characters and lore of the overarching narrative in which this movie exists. What makes it even worse is that there's actually a really awesome story in here, as well as a ton of excellent acting talent who could have told a very powerful story with the themes, plot and subject matter that we were presented, but it was completely and deliberately wasted because it seems like Taika Waititi doesn't give a rip about what he's doing because it's just a paycheck to fund the (admittedly much better) original projects he actually cares about. In making a mockery of all of the characters, it almost feels like he's mocking the audience for wanting and wanting to care about "a classic Thor adventure" like it's embarrassed of what it is while exploiting people's interest in it. This is basically everything wrong with the MCU right now dialed to eleven, and I sincerely hope to God and the spirits of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby that Marvel Studios takes these criticisms to heart and gets its crap together before they completely lose all of the good will that the Infinity Saga earned them (and at this point that good will is slipping away fast). After this movie, I dread the thought of what he has planned for his Star Wars movie, and I truly hope Taika Waititi has nothing more to do with writing or directing the Thor franchise. The 80s rock/metal vibe is cool. That can stay. The stupid, overly self-aware Whedonesque meta humor (for Thor and the MCU in general) needs to goooo. I'm there in a heartbeat if or when they decide to consistently put their best foot forward, but at this point, I don't know if I emotionally invest myself in the MCU anymore. I feel the same about Star Wars too. I'll see it if something looks good, and I'll judge things fairly, because I want to love these franchises, but as of right now, the hype is dead, and they need to get their act together to resuscitate it at this point. Disney in general is an absolute train wreck these days.
I gotta give you an.........AMEN.
This movie made me think he's struggling with nihilism.
Because this is what someone makes when they stop believing that anything matters.
It's trash.
He just comes across as a douchebag who thinks he is funny, when he isn't.
A few weeks ago I watched Multiverse of Madness on Disney+, I legit thought what the hell is happening with marvel. I was disappointed at first with Wanda Vision and all that Loki crap we got, but it really went downhill after that. I mean, their purpose earlier was to entertain the audience with a meaningful plot with fiction that really excites us, they were earning a lot back then too, but now it is all about fan service and "the agenda" to lure a certain audience. This one I didn't really bother to go and watch, found a clip on the internet of the first 10 minutes and oh lord how happy I was to not pay for this utter shit. Marvel phase 4 really sucks at some different level, and at the worst time when DC is delivering better movies and we have shows like The Boys.
Casual fans: omg that movie was perfect, better than ragnarok.
True fans: umm did you watch a different movie than love and thunder?
Disney: just consume products even if it sucks then get red to consume more products.
Casual fans: yes master you are never wrong.
True fans: I'm out cause you don't care about standards anymore.
I’m a casual fan and I did enjoy this film however I think for the true hardcore fans delight. this time it didn’t even work with most casual fans the box office numbers have been dropping dramatically. So if there is another Thor movie I believe Marvel will go back to serious Thor and say goodbye to Waititi.
True fans even though you got a film you hated : well you guys won, since even most casual fans hated the movie so Marvel will listen to you.
Now casual fans don’t be worried maybe we find a middle ground. Not too light hearted not too serious. Something like the first IronMan film which was perfectly in the middle.
Sure some casual fans like me did enjoy this but we were minority at least that’s what box office numbers say. So in case Marvel does another Thor movie the tone will change again.
There's also a question that's been running through my mind ever since I saw it:
If Eternity has the ability to grant wishes, and can bring a deceased child back from the dead, why didn't the Scarlet Witch attempt to reach Eternity and attempt to wish Billy and Tommy Maximoff back into existence?
I guess their reasoning is that only special beings have the ability to find Eternity's location?......I really don't know, because it doesn't show how Gorr found out about it or how he knew where the fuck the center of the universe even was. Lol, Eternity now brings up a lot of questions in retrospect.
@@Dylasophical "Special beings"? You do realize that Wanda Maximoff is the Scarlet Witch, who is prophesized to be the most powerful magic-wielder in existence? Are you trying to tell me that the Darkhold didn't even mention Eternity in passing?
@@Wolffman109 Look, I am just trying to put my mind in the position of the people writing these films. Maybe the Necrosword had some information on it? I don't know lol. I would THINK that because Wanda has so much knowledge about the multiverse, (enough to chase America through it), she might know of something like Eternity. But what's even dumber is that Thor acts like he also knows about Eternity, and he didn't even attempt to mention it during Infinity War or Endgame.
@@Dylasophical I agree. Sorry if I sounded hostile; I'm just pissed off.
Thor movie with a 250 million dollar budget
Expectations: God of War Ragnarok
Reality: SNL
That’s all Waititi’s capable of
While I'm somewhere in the middle between the shills who can't say anything significantly wrong about recent MCU films and series, and people who absolutely can't find anything good about them, I enjoyed a few parts of the recent ones like this Thor movie, but was also disappointed in a lot of it. A lot of the criticisms your channel, and others, hit home with me. But the movie is more flawed than merely the sheer amount of humor undercutting many scenes - which is about as much as access media and select TH-camrs will admit. There was potentially some good-to-great story left on the cutting room floor here, and a lot that never even filmed, because the director and writers never made it happen. They were too busy ad-libbing or writing irrelevancies into the script. So we got an unfinished product with a lot of promise, that wasn't utilized.
I was actually breaking up in tears in the final scene where Gorr was realizing he could wish for his daughter back, instead of killing all the gods, and I think a lot more people could have felt that if his backstory was done better, and the rest of the film wasn't so undermined. I bought into the Gorr scenes more than any other part in the film. I felt the cancer storyline was largely wasted. And I think time was poorly spent on injecting certain political narratives into the product. This isn't a Progressive vs Conservative thing. It's a Progressive vs story, character, and world-building thing. So much money, talent, and effort was put into something that was never created properly.
Gorr was such a great villain in the comic. He's nothing in the movie. Just another disposable MCU villain.
The opening scene with Gor and the God is why I don't watch modern movies anymore. Just disgustingly disappointing.
Taika Waititi is equivalent to Amy Schumer. He thinks he's funny and constantly tells jokes, but gets no laughs
Weeeeeeell, his other films are great. He just needs to leave the MCU alone.
I like the arc of Thor in Ragnarok (not needing the hammer), and then in infinity war (I thought he was amazing) and in end game (he was alright), but now it’s just…..what the sh*t
Also, basically everything you point out in this review were my fellings after watching the movie, exactly. Particularly, how silly the writing indeed is - how out-of place the firstscene is and how conveniently the god-killing weapon appears before Gorr. It's really as if its was written by some really low-skilled amateur.
I’ll like to know who green light this shit, it fell like a parody of a marvel movie. The cgi is shit, bad jokes thought out the movie, really bad villain almost everything is bad
Its pure trash.
Disagree
@@serwinzzalot9989 It’s alright, one day you’ll graduate elementary school and you’ll see what we’re saying.
For real though...its Disney...this is mostly Disneys fault...they are incapable of allowing any serious themes to be explored. Their only message is always, 'love is super good people'
if a film is bad, any self respecting director would blame him/herself, because it's true: it's the director's job to manage all the internal and external factors to create something good out of the chaos.
u cant even pass the blame to the writer because taika wrote the script.
The problem is they let taika do whatever he wanted.. Ragnorok was good, because it was written by someone else..someone who knew what they were doing. .taika actually took pride in not knowing ANYTHING about the characters, even said he was making something to piss off the fans!! Ego much!? As a fellow kiwi, I disown him..he's lost to hollyweird, and he's quickly disappearing up his own ass..ifnot tessa's.. just gross, whole disgusting attitude..
No the problem is they apparently really give directors latitude out of respect and or contractual aggreements. But the downside risk is to great.
As an mcu fan, imagine even I found thor extremely annoying.
Chris Hemsworth, having a room temperature IQ, hates Thor and is a bad influence on Taika. That would explain his fall from grace. Hey, let's just laugh and have fun! - Marvel: "we're in!"
Classic sequel syndrome. "hey, this worked, let's do it again but more of it." Super forgettable movie. As much as I hated waiting for new content in Phases 1-3, the way Marvel is cranking stuff out right now is exposing some seams.
Killed the MCU for me. Jumped the shark and Nuked the Fridge.
I blame it all on Melissa McCarthy...that woman could make any plot horrible...I swear she has never been in a movie better then a 3...I think she might be a talent vampire.
It's all taika..he wrote it..he made all the decisions.. he fucked this up ..and he meant to.. he wanted to piss off the fans.. who knows why..he said it.. America can have him, he's not a kiwi now.. we aren't up our own asses, sniffing our own farts , like he is nowadays..
The lady Thor part was so fucking Cringe, get Taika tfo marvel
and get rid of the person above who approved Taika's script and greenlit that film.
Waititi is so ignorant with the lore he’s adapting as well. Valhalla isn’t Heaven. It’s the place where half the fallen warriors of each battle go, selected and guided by the Valkyries, which happens because that’s where they train for Ragnarok. See how many issues that one sentence had?
Ragnarok has happened, so Valhalla is not a thing anymore, the Valkyries have supposedly been eradicated save for one, so there’s no one to escort the fallen there, and Jane wouldn’t have a good time at all if she went to Valhalla. She was a regular person for 99.5% of her life, and now she’d be in a place where she’d have to be in battles every single day for the rest of eternity, with no superpowers. That’s hell for a regular 21st century person.
Great point! Ragnarok is done and there are no active Valkyries. I didn't realize this huge storytelling failure. I guess Marvel doesn't give a crap about their own storytelling lore or the myths that they appropriate.
It kind of seems like making a wish on Eternity is easier than collecting the six infinity stones to make a wish. Less deadly too.
Thor: Love and Thunder is basically a compilation of SNL skits with 1 - 5 jokes per minute most of which docent land, where nobody told Christian Bale that he was staring in a comedy. So you have Chris Hemsworth doing Tropic Thunder type of acting and Christan Bale doing Macbeth the whole thing just comes off as extremely cringe.
"Thor: Love and Thunder is basically a compilation of SNL skits" Wow. Accurate but, Ouch! lol
Tropic Thunder had some pretty good performances
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Chris Hemsworth isn't someone I would call talentless, or rather the opposite. I think he would have succeeded in anything if he put his mind to it.. Bodybuilding, modeling, acting etc. I think the opposite is true for Christian Bale, I think he would be genuinely unpleased if he wasn't an actor.
@@Olebull93 Oh, definitely. Can't really see him as anything other than an actor
@@Olebull93 "We don't negotiate with terrorists."
-Les Grossman
He lost his friends and home. Taika why don't you take Thor friends seriously. Why don't you take losing his home seriously.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Infinity Cones” gag was so Taika could please the Disney Park marketing team. The more toy models he gives, the more money he makes.
T R A S H
I used to think only the WB didn't know what to do with it's characters. I was wrong. At least they aren't over producing a constant faucet of trash.
"At least they aren't over producing a constant faucet of trash." debatable: I have not liked anything Marvel/Disney has released in awhile and the upcoming line up looks like more of this trash. She-Hulk: do you really want to watch a hero use a dating app to hook up with a random dude for casual sex? It has no business in a Marvel based show and should be left for Sex in the City. I also do not care to see the characters discuss whether Steve Rogers was a virgin or not. Again sexuality has no business in these shows. I have no interest in that yet that is what they are shoveling because they think it is "funny" but it just isn't.
Me being a person who's mother died from cancer it was a spit in the face.
Damn man, I'm very sorry
Sorry to hear that buddy. I've also seen cancer, and it ain't this.........I can't even imagine what people who were truly affected by it thought.
My mother died too from cancer ! i'm sorry for your loss. I was very uncomfortable how funny they treated cancer.... even cancer to them was a joke ! I miss my mom.
I agree 100% about your opinions on Thor (the character) Thor's “character growth” was barely allowing him to grow as a character. He just stays the same jocky man child he was from the first Thor movie. Having him not learned a damn thing throughout his own arc. It's all just jokes and rock music and alcohol and more jokes and more alcohol and even more jokes... Did I forget to say jokes? Yeah a whole lot of jokes. Even when they try to take something very serious they still have to add a layer of comedy to it. And the final battle was way too cartoony and clownish. Like why would I care about a little girl shooting laser beams out of her teddy bear. This movie doesn't feel like that much of a Thor movie nor does it feel like a “superhero”movie. The writing for this movie feels like fanfiction written and given to the studio by a drunk and toxic fan. Like I said before this movie feels so average.
Due to some of the lack of continuity control in latter day MCU films Thor actually showed all his growth as a hero and was in peak form in Infinity War but yeah everything else since then (and at the same time with Ragnarok, not sure which was first) he's just a dumb jock male bimbo for women to swoon at (or loser in Endgame.)
@@jbbrolic yeah. Pretty much everything you said.
I’m sick of Marvel and what their doing with the MCU I’ve actually for once skipped a Marvel installment twice. I skipped Ms Marvel, and now I’m skipping this one. I can’t stand what their doing to this once beautiful franchise, over 10 years of build up just to be wrecked in only 2 installments.
Can we stop pretending Waititi is a good director? I mean, seriously, you bring up issues such as “Taika seemed to focus more on comedy rather than what makes sense”, and that was present throughout Ragnarok, then saying “he’s too keen on making fun of Thor”, he made Thor a caricature in Ragnarok too. Or having stupid jokes that get dragged on and on, that’s present throughout his entire filmography, Ragnarok included. “It didn’t make sense in-universe”, again, happened repeatedly in Ragnarok. “This is the love of his life and he barely cares”, that’s in theme with Waititi’s Thor, since he spent a millennium with the Warriors Three, and he didn’t even acknowledge their deaths. That’s what I can’t understand with people, every single issue they seem to have with this, was present in Ragnarok, as well as every other film he’s made.
I'm with you on Ragnarok. Its more bare able but fuck his goofball Thor sucks. I wish he was more like him comic counterpart just tweaked for the movies. He's such a badass and Waititi butchered it. I was so pumped for this movie seeing Zeus but they messed that up too. Thor should have had even ground to stand on since Odin is on the same level as Zeus but ofcourse they want to turn it into a sex party
This, so much this. Ragnarok disgusted me as a project.
"But it was a breath of fresh air, they didn't know what to do with Thor, have you watched Dark World" stfu, ass clown is not the only direction to go for a tragic and interesting character like Thor.
This Waikiki guy came out of nowhere I have never heard of him or seen his movies before Ragnarok and now everyone is saying that he is some kind of comedic legend lmao everyone acts like fourth thor is just a miss from legendary director, could someone name me the best movie from this guy? Want to witness his genius directing apart from thors
@@hombre-lobo5673 I’ve seen most of what he’s made, mostly for analytical purposes. He’s a one trick pony who’s one trick is basically setting every scene up as a joke. If you don’t have prior exposure to his stuff, it catches you off guard and can elicit laughs. If you know about it, it becomes obnoxious really fast, it’s why everyone turned on him this time around, despite doing the exact same thing. In order for that to happen, every character has to be turned into a 2D caricature, which is seemingly the only kind of writing he’s capable of.
He basically fooled people into liking what he did, and now they’re waking up to it. The one movie everyone turns to to tell you how good he is, is Jojo Rabbit, a movie with the exact same issues, that manages to render Νazis and the Ηοlocaust completely unintimidating. It’s basically more of the same, he just gets away with it there the most because the main character has the same age and maturity his brain is stuck in.
@@alexman378 Thanks for detailed reply, I'll watch that rabbit stuff of his just to make sure myself that this guy is overrated.
Gorr felt like a knockoff Pennywise in this film and not the “ god butcher “ .
Man I couldn't take take this movie serious up till the ending... what a waste of resources
I didn't hate it either but it was sad and Thor deserves better. Gorr was pretty cool though because of Bale's acting and Gorr's powers. I even liked Jane for the most part at least when she had her powers she seemed cool and kinda humble Portman's performance is the good bit. Her randomly having this power makes no sense though and her abrupt power up was rank bullshit.... idk I just liked her in some parts I guess. God Butcher comic was 1000x better. Gorr should've had a longer exposition... and the swords ties to Hella and Knull should have been explained. Wish he got to the part where he crucified a bunch of gods, especially Volstagg. He should have also wanted revenge for his entire species and his personal family. Also why didn't we get Gorr killing gods in the past when Thor was young, or Thor answering people's prayers on Indigar.... only to find Gorr killed Indigar's old gods. The scene where Thor made it rain on that planet and saved a bunch of aliens he knew nothing about and then told the people not to worship him but to take care of each other was beautiful in the book and they didn't put it in.... this movie failed.
I didn't hate the movie, but it sure made me hate Taika Waititi. I've only seen his other movie Ragnarok and that's all I needed, I never need to hear another Taika Waititi joke again.
Taika really needs a cool pill or needs a really good down to Earth assistant for he is way too hyperactive for his own good. If one has seen his interviews, they know what I'm talking about. He is a positive man with good intentions, but needs to grow up some.
When korg's god was on a throne of scissors.. i lost it
that joke hit for me
Okay, that was a good moment.
i like how people try to defend this movie by saying it's a comedy. i'm like even still it's not funny, you can't honestly tell me you think this movie is funny. fanboys are the worst, they are one the reason that these movies will keep being shit. cause they can't give constructive feedback everything has to be positive with them.
It's a shame coz they had all the Ingredients to make an awesome movie and one of the darkest characters in marvel and played by an incredible actor and they churned out this..
Yeah its crazy. It probably means Feige doesn't have enough deputies.
2:45
-Philosophical Pickle: Who was he? Where was he?
-A nobody watching this video: Why was he?
Funny! funnier than every single attempt at humor in the entire Thor Love and Thunder movie.
Fantastic!
THANK YOU! This movie was a dumb mess AND IT HAS SO MUCH PADDING!? It only got a 120-minute runtime and Taika needed three flashbacks with him narrating it? It's so ridiculous and anaemic like they didn't even write the script before filming. Also why is Thor talking like George of the Jungle? He's not just dumbed down he's horribly out of place in this. I can't believe that no-one in the marvel camp looked at the dailies and went "oh no we need rewrites".
Also yes, you're right why didn't they expand on Bale's characters backstory? They had the time, but they didn't do anything with him. It's just not a good movie overall, all the components are there but the script and the directing let it down immensely.
22:41 so I guess that means Mjolnir was also killing Cap, Vision, Odin, Thor and all the other people that have picked the thing up? Just another of the awful parts to this horrible movie.
Sorry to hear about the panic attacks - I've been through similar recently, which is one of the reasons I've not posted on my TH-cam channel for several months. I totally agree with every point you raised. It feels like there was enough plot threads to have made a trilogy, ideally with the first being the interstella rump with the Guardians of the Galaxy that Endgame promised us. The middle could show Gor in more detail - including him slaying some actual Gods - and the final film as a team-up with Jane as she takes the hammer as the only way to help the man she loves, and gives her life to save him.
I hope you're doing okay, man! YES, this was definitely three movies shoved into one.
In all fairness, Chalkzone was a badass Saturday morning cartoon
The motivation of Gorr fails flat in the middle of the movie. He wants to kill all the gods, because they´re selfish. So his plan is to kidnap children. But if Gods don´t care, why would Thor bother to risk his life to save the Kids? And If Thor does care, doesn´t it prove to Gorr he is wrong? And why do not wish for the ressurrection of his daughter from the begining?
Yep yep. They completely missed an opportunity there. Because Thor could have proven Gorr wrong by showing that not all gods are bad, and reversely, I think Thor should have questioned his place as a God when he found out Zeus was a piece of shit. A lot of missed opportunities for great character depth.
Like for real this movie is hot GARBAGE no argument … go right now watch Thor 1 and tell me how different that movie is. Thor 1 is just designed to entertain you!! it’s emotional, funny and It’s more realistic than you think all the characters grounded and normal. It’s a beautiful movie with heartfelt moments and I probably wouldn’t describe that movie so intensely if the MCU didn’t spiral down so hard like this.I took the first phases for granted.
Way too much humor! Insulting to Thor.
After watching the Wakanda Forever trailer, This Thor movie is at the Howard the Duck movie level.
Seems like different universes......But I like the diversity of tone and content, it was just handled very poorly.
@@Dylasophical The movie has so many problems sure. It has too many bad jokes and making Thor a bimbo is not edgy and funny anymore.
This movie was horrible. A huge disappointment. A sad attempt of trying to be funny on what should have been a more serious movie considering Gods were actually being killed. Gorr was nothing like this in the comics. Gorrs character development seemed very rushed. The Gods that were alive seemed to be imbeciles. The only thing good were the special effects. Those goats should have been put on a spit over an open fire. Yes they were in the comics but no need for that abnoxious sound through out the entire movie. We get that they are loud. This director should stop making Thor movies. As for the music it's very similar to some animated films that use one artist. Spirit : Stallion of the Cimarron is a good example using Brian Adams for the soundtrack. . Basically it was a very long Guns and Roses video. I am so glad I streamed it and didn't have to shell out movie prices to go see it. To reiterate, it was a huge, no massive disappointment and a disservice to the Thor comic book lore, more so Gorr the God Killer.
Cannot agree more. I’m disappointed this movie has already made as much as it has. Money speaks and I pray that more and more people don't reward Taika 'I'll ruin your mythos in a minute, baby' Waititi and the woke, post Endgame MCU went full unoriginal, lazy, formulaic hack on this one and tried to cash in on and rehash Ragnarok's same exact beats but with the cringe, kiddie humour dialed up to 11 and at the expense of Thor, who was entirely character assassinated..
This is the worst MCU movie I've ever seen. A tonal catastrophe, muddled, far too short, jokes at every single second and, as I say, Thor has been entirely character assassinated to be a bumbling, insufferable (now the Guardians look bored and annoyed whenever he's doing anything), silly idiot who weeps at movies on dates with Jane, calls his hammer like it's a dog and annoys everyone he's around (Heimdall's son gets bored of him and tells him to go away, the Guardians look exasperated by him now being an idiot, Valkryie and Jane look at him like a fool when he, for some random reason, falls out of the Bifrost and destroys part of New Asgard like he accidentally destroys the temple of the people he's trying to save). I am astonished how bad this movie is. You get brief moments where Thor acts like Thor but then he resumes being this new airhead simpleton jock character that Taika and Chris are loving to turn him into. It's such a shame, there's a really brilliant outline here but it's just absolutely saturated, stuffed to the gills with silliness and tension breaking comedy and character assassination (with Thor). Like Gorr. Bale is predictably phenomenal as him but he’s so, so underutilised and they completely avoid some of the best moments of his comic run like the Godbomb and deny him any kind of actual character like: Is he evil or is it just the sword whispering to him and manipulating him, it’s never explained? We literally get an hour and 20 minutes into this movie that doesn’t even reach 2 hours long, before we actually get a meaningful, legitimate conversation between Thor and Gorr, aside from one fight where they throw a few small exchanges with no substance. We see next to none of his brutality against the Gods like in the comic where it’s more of a haunting, murder mystery involving Gods being hunted like prey, tortured extensively and butchered. He’s truly tame here. He kills one God at the beginning of the movie, Thor finds Sif in the aftermath of his next butchering (they don’t even explain why she’s been gone for about 9 years in universe and instead make time for jokes despite her having lost an arm) and then Zeus references some killings. That’s literally it. You get absolutely nothing in terms of actual God butchering. Where was his torture of Thor from the comics? Why didn’t they write it so that Gorr had met Thor years before like in the comics? He’s so disappointingly handled and truly, truly surface level, a Malekith/Ivan Vanko level of mishandling and lack of care by the script. unfortunately for Bale.
And again, seriously, why is Thor an absolute bumbling, aloof, head in the clouds simpleton now? Seriously, did he get CTE from all his years fighting bad guys? He acts like someone who's not all there and the joke is that the characters are written and directed to mirror that. Notice how loads of times in the movie, characters look annoyed or bored with Thor, like he's a bad smell, because he's written to act like an annoying, absent-minded screw up? He flies away and then...for some reason...smashes into and breaks one of the pillars in New Asgard, much to the dismay of the people, which already is a copy of an earlier part of the movie where he smashes the sacred temple that the whole point was to preserve? And it's all because of Taika's obsessive need to write jokes for 4-year-olds. It is literally farting in the bathtub, laughing at the bubbles level of humour. Taika Waititi forgot the first rule: Never go full retard.
And why did Thor go back to using Mjolnir? Obviously it’s his longstanding weapon in the comics but in the context of the MCU, Stormbreaker (exclusively Beta Rey Bill’s in the comic) was the upgrade, the King’s weapon, why did he regress back to Mjolnir? I'm honestly shocked how awful it is. Thank God I didn't pay money to be disappointed by this and fund the Mouse. Oh, and I adored Ragnarok. Absolutely loved it, aside from the odd one or two goofy moments that encapsulate this entire movie. That's the problem. Taika saw what people loved in Ragnarok (playing popular rock music over Thor - 4 Guns N Roses tracks, 4?!, I love Guns but 4 tracks from the same band as well as a character being named after them and Guns being referenced? - the play scene with Matt Damon, Luke Hemsworth and Sam Neil, Thor shrieking like a little girl at the Grandmaster) and just turned that all up to 11 and repeated it all again but without any rhyme or reason. I haven't seen Eternals, which people gave bad reviews, but this movie is just appallingly bad. It's exactly as advertised though. A spoiled, 6 year old's fever dream of a movie, which is exactly what Hemsworth and Waititi said it would be, that Waititi had the 'imagination of a child' but sadly the MCU, banking on Ragnarok's success, let him have free reign to butcher Thor. Now I know how the people who hated Ragnarok felt for what they saw as Thor being made into a goofy idiot. I didn't feel that there but I 100% felt it here. ‘I’ll ruin your mythos in a minute baby’. Thanks Taika, you did.
completely agree with you. Marvel movies are best when they stay true to who the character is which is why I absolutely love Iron Man 1, Winter Soldier to name some examples. Go read over 50 years of Thor comics ( like I have ) and you will learn he is not a comedic buffoon at all. He is over 1500 years old and I am certain in that time he should have developed wisdom, especially since he needs to exercise his wisdom in order to be the ruler of Asgard (Thor movie #1) but since then he has abandoned that course to become a comedic buffoon. Even the way he talks is annoying; listen to the way he speaks when the unfunny screaming goats are first introduced, very cringe inducing. Why his character is forced in this direction actually makes me very frustrated because of what they could have created.
@@Thynqikan 100%. Thor in the comics is, to me, equal to Captain America as an absolute beacon of hope and goodness. I love when he fights alone against Glory to protect the earth, the planet he most loves, given that he is it's protector and son of Gaea. He is by far my favourite comic character and I am absolutely routinely appalled by how they turn him into a 30 IQ idiot who is simply detestable because he's suddenly had an off-screen aneurysm. Thor in the comics might not be a scientific genius but he is intelligent and wise and his status as a God is something very much respected among the Avengers and other heroes.
He's a force to be reckoned with, but also a very real, very useful help, for any in the universe. They've now introduced the Celestials, how amazing would it have been to show Thor alone against the Celestials, battling to save Pangoria from their Judgement? But no. He is now a total clown, an absolutely useless imbecile who confuses and bores the surrounding characters and the audience. You are absolutely spot on, them refusing him to be King in favour of Valkryie 'the enslaver' who twice refused him helping their people in favour of him remaining as a slave for the Grandmaster, before she then actively went to hunt him down only to be guilt tripped by Loki, was a very telling moment for me in Endgame, I was so disappointed. He should have been made King, and it would have coincided perfectly with him becoming King just a few years back. They should be ashamed for plummeting this brilliant character, who rightfully should act as the MCU's bridge to the cosmos, same as he was in the comics.
Thank you for addressing how Jane getting the hammer was so poorly and stupidly done! It was at that moment I realized that this movie is gonna suck.
Yeah, I was surprised that something that should have been very meaningful was essentially glossed over. What a waste of potential epic-ness.
It's disappointing that Marvel's best project in this Phase was Shang Chi, which i thought was just okay.
The Eternals actually looks better and better compared to what's coming out now. Very very sad, and a trend of the main character being sidelined is also ruining the movies, with Thor, Doctor Strange, and black widow.
As if you only have 2k subscribers. Video was so professional. Was expecting to have 50k+ subs
Thanks man! I've been told similar things many times. But I'll take what I can get!
the all black sword called to gorr and showed him the way to that hidden mirage. it also chose him because of his rage atm. we definitely needed WAY MORE Gorr!!!
There should be a refund for everyone who paid their hard earned money for.
Thank goodness I saw it for free.
I agree with the most disappointing besides Iron Man 3. I've never understood why people liked that film when it had the worst bait-and-switch I've ever seen with the villain, (and the CGI one we got was terrible)... and 75% of the movie was Robert Downey Jr. being swarmy or nice to some random kid and NOT Iron Man. But yeah... this movie actively annoyed me.
19:49 "A-Fuck"
"A-Off"
😂
I almost spit my drink out when he said that
remember, taika said in interview that gorr would be the best villain in mcu just before this film came out. by that time the film has been screened for the studio execs, so he would know the reactions were not what he was hoping for. yey he forged ahead saying gorr would be the best, as if trying to convince himself the reactions were wrong.
i think the life lesson here is... stay humble and dont talk shit. ragnarok's success and his oscar have made him think he can do the f he wants and people will just love it.
He can’t produce quality to save his life, when he was saying Gorr was the best villain, I was like “sure he is, buddy, sure he is”.
Gorr just finding the sword is kiiiinnndddaaaa how it happens in the comic. He jus gets it from Knull. It's not that dramatic. Not that the way he got it was necessarily bad in the comics but it wasn't some great way either.
Comic version 1000x better lol
@@luistorres6956 Overall, yes it is
So thor and mjolnir can travel a billion miles per hour to the center of the universe to catch up to gorr. Also shouldn't the gods have respect for thor for fighting thanos the being that can kill all of them
Thor is annoying I agree I can’t stand how stupid they made him Infinity War Thor was the perfect version of Thor.
Raga rock and infinity war thor were so good
Apparently Taika WANTED to make a children's movie that not only appeals to children first and foremost, but feels as if it was MADE by a child.
He worked with many child consultants to craft his movie, most notably his own children and Chris Hemsworth's daughter, who IIRC cameos in the movie. He wanted to break the pattern of MCU movies being made for adults and get the children involved to make them feel as if they're a part of the story.
Nope. This movie is literally hsi EGO. He purposely ruined the movie. He said so himself.
I never said that was a good idea. I think it's bad. I HATED those goats the most.
Honestly, Taiki was thinking the wrong way. I mean, CS Lewis once said, "A children's story that can be enjoyed only by children, is not a good children's story in the slightest".
OK. IS THAT AN EXCUSE TO MAKE A TERRIBLE MOVIE AND RUIN THORS STORY ARC AND FOCUS ON A CHARACTER THAT NO FAN NEEDED CLOSURE TO
@@imgoodaswell9558 it was a terrible idea but this was his idea.
This might be the first MCU movie I didn't like. Seriously, I enjoyed every other MCU movie EXCEPT this one.
I understand completely.....
Even Thor 2 and ironman 2 ?
@@robertrogers074 YES!
the best part is, its marvel fans who are upset about this film being bad, yet other marvel fans fighting those same fans saying they will just hate on anything.. i dont understand the marvel fandom.....
Same in the star wars Fandom. Butthurt people who cant accept that people have opinions and don't like everything they like
All your points are 100% correct ! and about his daughter we didin't care.... and about Gorr only killed one God.... and about those fucking goats. This movie is embarrassing indeed !
Ragnarok is not great.....FAR from it. That was a warning
Dude this was an excellent breakdown. That stupid lightning bolt was never necessary to fight gore, and in the context of the movie, how powerful thor was he didn't need help with gore. We need the Russo's to take on Thor 5
Man, you are absolutely right on everything you said and you make me realize some points of that awful movie that I didn't when I watched it. I am 101 percent with you!
Hell to the yeah.
I lost it when you said that Ragnarok was great
I'm glad you enjoyed that comment LOL
Sorry to hear about the dragons you're up against, mate. Great job on the video. Good points raised.
Thanks buddy!
You know how they could have easily avoided any confusion and hurt feelings around "Lady-Thor"? Don't treat "Thor" like a title or a mantle, because it's not, it is the name of the son of Odin. Jane Foster could have come up with her own superhero name or she could have continued the use of her human name.
And lets be real here, this isn't about Jane Foster, fictional character, this is about the creators of the femthor character wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted the immediate attention and built-in audience that came with body-snatching an existing character, but at the same time they want to shame and guilt those fans who point out the hypocrisy in trying to create a feminist icon out of a gender-swapped male character.
She was called Mighty Thor in the comics I believe, so they stuck with that. She was one of the best parts of the movie in my opinion, and the return of a classic character, so I'm kinda pissed she was killed off at the end instead of being a part of the future MCU, even if it did make for a great ending. Maybe the stuff with Kang the Conqueror could change that outcome a bit? That's a long shot for sure, but it would be great.