How Bad Dialogue Ruined Thor 4
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2024
- Thor 4 has a dialogue problem. Go to nordvpn.com/closerlook to get 2 years of Nord with 4 months extra for free!
Thor Love and Thunder makes a big mistake with its dialogue. In this video essay, I break down why and how they could have done better.
I----------------------------------------------------------------------------------I
My Discord Server: / discord
Support me on Patreon: / henryboseley
Hate me on Twitter: / henryboseley
I----------------------------------------------------------------------------------I
0:00 - Thor 4 Has A Dialogue Problem
1:30 - Rewriting Thor 4's Dialogue
3:09 - When A Movie Has No Subtext
5:32 - Why Narration Is Often Boring
8:20 - Nothing Beats Subtext At Exposition
11:09 - The Main Reason To Use Subtext
12:57 - Outro
I----------------------------------------------------------------------------------I
A massive thank you to my $10+ patrons:
Kyong Kim
LachFlex
Frank D. Lemke
[OG]
Chefda
Dain Bramage
Ed Rivis
ElizabethJustElizabeth
Kent-Andrè Herland
Mike Schmidt
NStarks
Richard Williams
Thomas Feuer
![[TH] VCT Masters Shanghai Swiss Stage DAY 5 // FPX vs TH | FUT vs LEV](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/r61uDZTmu44/mqdefault.jpg)
If you'd like to join my Discord server where we chat about our writing, workshop ideas, and generally discuss the movies/shows we love, here's a link you can use to join.
My Discord: discord.com/invite/aJpYPQX
Keep writing!
- Henry
@The Closer Look, have you seen the new film 'Devotion' yet? Future review of that movie sometime maybe?
Okay, you make a great point and I've been hearing it. It is exquisite in fact, and very true however one thing that glared with me about the movie was the very vital and missing element. A Thor movie without the character of Loki in it, isn't really a fulfilling movie. I am probably alone in this, very likely I am. However, without Loki to play off of, Thor feels incomplete. Thor is not a good character on his own without another character to play off of, and that would be Loki. Loki missing from the film is like peanut butter missing jelly. You can have just a peanut butter sandwich, and it's fine, but without the jelly, it just doesn't snap as well as a peanut butter and jelly sandwich would
Inserting the ad read in your video essay without clearly marking it as an advert used to be cute, but it's getting really really tiresome. Please stop. Have some respect for your viewers.
Link expired.
Feminism ruined Thor
It was just kind of jarring to see Christian Bale acting like his life depended on it then cut to Thor's naked buttcheeks the next scene.
Bale was wasted on this film.
@@TheCloserLook Thor 4 is so bad. The best part about the movie ended being wasted potential.
🤮good I didn't watch it then..
I adore the MCU, but it's depressing to see Bale join the long list of wasted talents as one time villains.
@@AfreenSabah Bale doesn't want to waste commiting himself to MCU project, even if Thor 4 ended to be a good movie he will still be one time movie villain.
In the words of Futurama, “You can’t just have your characters say how they feel! That makes me feel angry!”
Glad someone said it
But what if the character IS someone who's openly emotive?
The music's bad and you should feel bad!
I WANT MY HANDS BACK
@@byronsenior6499 Then thats fine, but it needs to be consistent. This same character can't turn around and suddenly stop talking about emotions when it's convenient, yknow? Thor was established as the sort of character who doesn't talk about his emotions, so that's why people are mad now that he's gone back on that
I watched an interview with Taika where he discussed his writing technique which is to write a script then put it away for two years then come back and completely rewrite it with a fresh mind and "only the good parts" from the first draft that he can recall after the two years. While watching this movie all I was thinking was how there is no way marvel would let him do that, especially with all their last minute changes and trying to fit this into the larger mcu. We've seen his other works. we know what he can do. I wonder what this movie would have looked like if he was given the time (and also not just cashing in that marvel paycheck, respectfully).
He messed up a lot of the backstory for the sake of jokes. For example, korg now has two dads instead of what was mentioned in Ragnarok, all to make that Dwayne the Rock joke at the end.
Yes, we've seen Thor Ragnajoke, an absolute abomination of a movie, which has one of the dumbest plot holes ever committed to a film, which could've been solved had anyone who was making this nonsense bothered to watch the first Thor movie, and then on top of that have character assassinated Thor beyond repair.
@@antona.1327chill out bro you’re under every comment talking shit on Thor ragnarok. It’s just a movie. It can’t hurt you
@@LessPegasus Racknarock was the story from Thor's point of view. This was from Korg's point of view.
@@antona.1327 Thor ragnarok saved the thor franchise, best thor movie with good balance of fun and being serious, but sadly followed by the worst movie.
"I want to die a warrior's death."
"The battle's over."
*Realization*
"Well, come on, help me up."
Yay bad dialogue fixed
Not to mention how the jokes basically overshadowed literally everything in the story. Which sucks because you can tell that Christian Bale and Natalie Portman are trying to make this story work. But it just can't.
Yeah, I did consider making that the main angle, but everyone's already pointed it out so I wanted to say something different
They nerfed Christian Bale.
@@liamphibia I wanted more of him. Still good performance. For me this makes it better than Thor 2 with that desastrous Malikith.
I would have loved to see Christian Bale in a more serious take on the story
it also doesn't help that most of the jokes were kinda bad. like the screaming goats made me audibly groan in the theater
the worst part about the narration is that it's *literally* Taika Waititi telling the audience exactly what's happening in the movie HE MADE
Big Leo energy there!
It’s too anime 😂
@@rileyolson6008 Still. Anime doesn’t really like play like play or skit. There is a bit over dramatization but not enough to take you out of it and it’s still subtle.
I had this video playing in the background, and you’re right, it didn’t sound like korg, it’s literally taika waititi.
@@rileyolson6008
Anime has way higher standards than most of the MCU the f k you on?
Why putting a whole medium on the same bag?
honestly they could have had korg talk about how thor and the guardians went on amazing adventures and talk to us about how it was super fun and epic but what we actually see on screen is Thor getting more and more sad. could have been a cool little thing about how korg idolizes Thor and didn't even realize that Thor was feeling down etc
yes!! parallel structure can be just as telling as a point-blank statement. i think that having something that contrasting would have been wonderful
Wait a second you are an absolute genius
wow that's a great idea! that would've been amazing writing as we go from smiling to start feeling something off and then feeling more uncomfortable by the two different messages. The gradual lead up to that understanding would've been fantastic
As a screenwriter I can tell you there's a real chance the writers originally had these scenes closer to what you describe, but a studio exec may have asked them to bring those emotional sentiments out more, to make them obvious. Removing the subtext may have addressed that note and made the execs happy.
As a fan, I say this is Korg's point of view. He sees things fom his point of view. Let's start a revolution.
Hopefully the Sequel is the same movie but 'What Actually Happened'.@@GothamClive
This video annoys me because he starts by asking if a Space Pirate and an Asguardian Gods dialogue sounds like something you would hear normal people say and the answer is a resounding, NO, of course not they are not normal people. Thor’s world has always been one of thespian dialogue while GOTG are just quirky and out there.
It feels like Taika thought the idea of characters saying what they feel out loud was really funny, and it can be funny in something that is explicitly parody like Naked Gun, or as a one-off joke for a character like Drax. But for some reason he decided to have all the characters talk like this the entire movie, and it really didn't work.
It just struck me that for me, the funniest part of the movie is Stormbreaker, the one "character" that can't speak, the way it just floats into the shot while Thor is gazing at Mjolnir, is way funnier than any of the dialogue.
"You can't have characters just say how they feel! That makes me feel angry!"
Yeah I was gonna say the same thing. I feel like he thinks it’s funny for them to be “self aware” and explicitly state the themes of the movie which it can be but it wasn’t done well here
That’s exactly it
Gods being able to break the fourth wall and change the narrative by hitting Waititi in the nuts could be a way to make silly movie, but they mesh too much genre and it just didn't work
@@typhonviserys8288 Great way to jeopardize the serious parts of the story: Have the characters behave comically all the time
The saddest part is that beneath all the forced humor, there is a genuenly good story. But they wasted Hemsworth, Bale and Portman, who are genuenly trying to make the script work
In fact, Hemsworth in particular has stated his discontent in how Thor's character has been treated lately, which says a *lot*
Wait...he did??? HA! Thats funny considering he kicked and screamed for this new direction for Thor and that shitty Ragnarok movie (which L&T is A LOT like so idk why ppl are having a problem with it NOW 🙄)
@@CUF17 there was seriously a time when I used to love ragnarok and would've probably been in like my top 5 mcu films but I don't know anymore, my recent rewatch after watching love and thunder kinda left me feeling that this is better than love and thunder but not a lot different, love and thunder was just extreme version of what worked for mcu before, honestly I think the best thor film would still be the first thor, and ragnarok is still a good film since it has small tributes to the og score of the 1st thor, let's just forget there was a 2nd one
@@CUF17 there happened iw and endgame between both movies
@@sarveshbane1718 see i love the first 2 Thor movies. I loooove the Shakespeare-like drama it was with HINTS of comedic moments and it stood out from the other marvel movies. Plus i got sooo much great acting/scenes from those two movies. (Loki grieving when his mom died, thor and his father arguing etc etc)
Ragnarok didnt give me shit but a butchered adaption of the comic storyline corny ass slapstick and unfunny ass "humor". L&T was more of the same just turned up to 100 and now im done with thor for good.
@@CUF17 that's because he felt that Thor's character had become boring and derivitive and that Ragnarok was a nice change of pace while not sacrificing the core of his character.
The problem is that Love & Thunder went too far in that *other direction* in that the movie feels the need to *constantly* keep throwing jokes at the wall to see what sticks
Which, again, is a shame because underneath it all is what could have been the best Thor movie *period*
Rocket’s scene with Thor in ‘Infinity War’ where they talk about what Thor’s been through and his chances against Thanos is perfect: Somber, has subtext, and has character development. Plus it ends with the fake eye bit which nicely cuts the tension.
Great nod to Wall-e. It's almost a polar opposite to the Thor film, it manages to convey so much through expression and context where so much of the movie is dialogue free. Imagine Taika had access to just a 10th of the skill of those writers.
And it's expressions THROUGH ROBOTS
He does watch jojoba rabbit he just couldn't care less about this movie
Taika is skilled - I would blame this failure on Disney/Marvel execs.
@@Vesdus what a weird take. This film reeks of Waititi from start to finish, it's all him, it's just...bad. There is history in cinema of films being released that the directors hate the final edit for, this is not one of those films.
@@ozoakI think it’s a combination of both. He does have talent, when he’s placed in the right work environment where he has time to work out the kinks, and other people to stop him when he goes too far. Jojo Rabbit is incredible and What We Do in the Shadows is really very funny, he can create good work, but he isn’t a good fit for Marvel. Marvel need writers who can write a first draft and make it into an instant product. He definitely isn’t one of those.
I think the writers and Taika are aware of this. I think they find characters over explaining things awkwardly hilarious and they are doing it on purpose. The problem is they treat EVERYTHING as a joke, so when the time comes to deliver actual drama or emotion, it fails. Ragnorok balanced this mix much better.
I agree.
The Sif scene really takes the biscuit. Your life long friend is dying and you say 'hate to break it to you...but you're not going to Valhalla because you need to die like this, lol' now compare that to when Loki died or Odin or anyone else important to him did. This movie is such a parody.
Exactly. I think Taika made the film like this on purpose. I guess we will know in the future, the next time we see Thor in an MCU Movie.
You all are really giving Ragnarok a lot of credit, when it did a lot of the same shit Love and Thunder did. It was Ragnarok’s success that led to this, just reminding you.
@@shironasama0445 it did do a lot of the same things, it just did them well. Taika deserved another shot, but he had a miss here. I guess we can’t all be James Gunn.
I also hate how every other line in most modern MCU movies has to be a joke. Completely kills the mood in serious and emotional scenes.
Also... Disney in general
That's something I loved about No Way Home and Wakanda Forever is that when it needed to get serious it was. There were definitely still jokes but not the gratuitous amount that some mcu movies have had and it didn't make the serious scenes cheapened in my opinion.
I feel like this is more of a Thor problem after the 2nd movie. They wanted a complete tonal shift I guess.
It is a creative choice. To hear someone criticize this movie because the characters don't talk like real people (like the video's author does) is pretty stupid because THEY ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE. I mean, it's a choice that the screenwriters have made. To make everyone sound over the top silly and 'funny', yet still in line with what their characters are. You may not like this choice, I certainly don't love any Marvel movies, but I doubt it would work better for me to have silly cartoonish characters meant for children have real, grounded emotional dramas. I don't see 'serious' scenes working dramatically no matter what they do, so simply not going that route seems like one reasonable creative choice.
@@jvjjjvvv9157 if you ever saw these cartoons as a kid thry absolutely got very serious at times. thor was an absolute badass in the cartoons and seeing him in a live action he is just some silly guy is annoying af
I actually really loved how you fixed the dialogue and the scene between Thor and Peter, other than it just made it look better, but also we got to see the guardians bonding even more which I love so much since they are my favorite found family
For a great example of working-for-your-meal dialogue, watch Better Call Saul. I’m watching season six and I’m in awe at how many times characters warp dialogue and fake emotions to manipulate each other. It’s such a fun game to guess why they are saying or doing things and what their endgame is. And when it comes, it’s so satisfying.
The thing that really kills me was when Thor had the "what more could I possibly lose" moment and was on the verge of tears; that really hit me. I was the most intrigued I had been in years by anything in the MCU. Then the follow up we got was overweight-depressed Thor being the butt of a ton of jokes in Endgame and this movie.
Thor Being overweight-depressed after everything he went through made sense to me, the only alternative i could realistically see him take is attempting suicide, however constantly making him the butt of jokes in Endgame was distasteful.
@@jturner2577 yeah like for me, it wasn't that he was fat and depressed, I was mad that it was 'just SO funny'
Thanks for pointing that out, I feel like Endgame got away with a LOT of dumb shit just because it was Endgame.
Agreed 👍
@@Icerope-km9lu agreed, hell even I didn't see the flaws until my probably 5th rewatch last year, haven't been interested in a rewatch since then
The worst thing is that Taika has explicitly stated how campy, silly, and unrealistic the dialogues sounded in Thor comics, and wanted to make them sound more like 'normal people'. Look where we are now...💀💀💀
Because taika thinks the old Norse talk that Thor fans love is silly and unrealistic.
*inserts Thanos monologue about failures coming back to him*
Why Thor was humorous in first two movies is that it made sense: He is oblivious to the customs of (modern) Earth as an Asgardian, he speaks in a more eloquent and outlandish way. The third movie doesn't make any sense for his character.
The thing is, Thor isn't supposed to be 'normal' like us. He is Asgardian ffs.
@@BiBiren yah fr, I agree
@@BiBiren yeah actually I'm glad I'm not alone, coz I was the one who loved the character since I like norse mythology a lot and until infinity war and ragnarok nobody I knew liked him, still I think infinity war did way better job than ragnarok and endgame to portray a great thor and lets just not talk about love and thunder
This is a fine line to balance when writing. Sometimes, people mistake "subtext" with being cryptic or lying all the time, which is not inherently subtext. Sometimes real people, and therefore characters, really do ask for information or honestly express how they're feeling.
The thing with subtext is that every bit of dialogue should be doing something in addition to conveying information. Let's take a scene where somebody is trying to find a MacGuffin. If a character blandly exposits "The MacGuffin is in the warehouse on 6th Street," for the sole purpose of telling the viewer or reader where the thing is, that's boring. The same line, however, in proper context, could be quite subtextual. If an insecure character blurts out, "The MacGuffin is in the warehouse on 6th Street!" in order to try to sound impressive or knowledgeable, that tells you something about the character's desire to be seen as in-the-know and also tells the viewer where the item is.
All of that to say that subtextual writing is relative and doesn't inherently have to be dishonest or cryptic.
Stfu, YOU ARENT A WRITER AND YOULL NEVER BE ONE. LET THE REAL PROS WRITE.
Fantastic vid, Henry! For me, the King of all Subtext would have to be Carl, from Pixar's Up. He says exactly 1 word of dialog in the first 13 minutes of the movie. Sure, he gasps, grunts, and oofs, but only says "Wow!" until the construction scene.
Not to mention the roughly 4.5 minute dialog-free montage of his life with Ellie that makes me bawl like a baby every time I watch it. Curse you, good writing!!!
Its just confusing why movies nowadays feel the need to verbally explain thoughts and feelings instead of having people think and infer them for themselves instead
This comment has got me thinking, maybe it's because of the quantity of media we are consuming? We are more used to being fed information at rapid speeds and are seeing more media than we used to. So many people walked away from Jordan Peele's Nope, not understanding why the Gordy storyline existed. They weren't used to having to think during a movie, play detective, draw connections, aka work for their media. I was left investigating Nope for weeks because I don't consume movies often, and I also deleted my social media. I had nothing new to fill the thought gap and spur me onwards, so I was left to ponder.
It could also have something to do with our lack of nuance nowadays because of political strife and division. Maybe writers are scared of audiences not getting the joke if it's too subtle or not understanding character arcs if they aren't clearly evil and good.
There are many reasons:
1) It's easier. Writing subtext requires basically writing two dialogues at once.
2) It's faster. You do not have to think too hard about it and in a month you git the script down so people can start filming and in about a year you got a movie
3) You make sure the audience doesn't get confused. Have you ever seen a movie and had to rewatch a scene because you didn't understand why characters were doing what they were doing? That is when a writer wants to add subtext but goes overboard and forgets to tell the audience important things.
Because they actively hate the audience, they think all are dumb white racist.
@@OcrimMirco I've seen some hot takes that Arcane's character motivations make no sense, so I think I see why so many screenwriters just blatantly spell it out, sadly.
Maybe it's the anime influence. I have always the feeling in anime it's extremly common.
For me the best written subtext dialogue in film is from Up. When Russell and Carl are by the campfire and Russel is opening up just a little about his dad, he say "Phyllis says I bug him too much". Carl immediately chastises "You call your mother by her first name?" And Russell replies, confused "Phyllis isn't my mom." And that's it. We never get anything further, but that's all we need to hear. That's what Thor 4 doesn't understand.
Pixar is amazing with subtext. Incredibles, up, and finding Nemo are amazing with it
I see u… fellow cinema therapy viewer…
Yes. Very economical writing. In such a short exchange we learn that Russell's parents are divorced, his mom has custody, that he misses his dad who he used to be close to, his dad is remarried to a woman who wants his father to have nothing to do with him anymore and that Russell naïvely doesn't get it.
In a lot of reaction videos to Up, it is surprising how many people can't read between the lines - they think his father is just working too hard to spend time with him or something.
@@dasc0yne honesty I don't think the piece of dialogue revealed that much. It could be that his parents divorced. Could be that his mother died. Could be that his father is too focused on his work. We don't know. But we do know for a fact that Russell doesn't have a reliable parental figure at the moment and that's enough to enjoy the movie.
@@hoangkienvu7572 I agree the details aren't critical, however all the information is there. If the dad was just working hard Russell would be talking about how his dad doesn't have time to spend whenever he sees him at home or that his dad comes home too late every night, but not about having to call him to talk to him. Sure, it is possible to conceive of a more convoluted scenario (e.g. Phyllis is a secretary), but Carl felt bad for Russell only when Russell said, "Phyllis isn't my mom." And that is when he stopped asking questions because he then understood the whole situation.
Also you can see Russell's Asian mom at the end. She is the one who takes him to his promotion so he likely lives with her. Since Russell appears half-Asian I presume his dad is white. It is sad that his father didn't show up to ceremony, but Carl is there to be a paternal figure.
Having the sponsor ad at the end of the video deserves a like on its own. Great video!
The irony of that first little scene rewrite was that it genuinely felt like how the better parts of the MCU are usually written. Bits of levity with the weight of emotion heavy in the subtext.
Or, y’know, how the DCAU is usually written.
I would like to say though that "fake/artificial" dialogue isn't necessarily a bad thing. Often times in Quentin Tarantino's movies people don't really talk like regular people, they're too witty, but it works in that case because everything they say is genuinely interesting/funny.
Basically, if your dialogue isn't realistic it needs to offer something else in exchange to be worthwhile.
It helps that the writing itself in his work plays with your expectations.
I have the same thoughts about Joss Whedon and Aaron Sorkin dialogue. I won't pretend for a moment that it could come from real humans, but it's still enjoyable to listen to.
Also I think when it comes to love and thunder dialogue is the least of my concern coz the story itself had flaws where if you think a little bit, everything falls apart, and yes I agree artificial dialogues aren't necessarily a bad thing
Yeah, Nolan's dialogue is very theatrical as well but I do love it
Fr
I remember watching this and knew that Thor is supposed to be depressed, somewhat introverted, and unsure of himself near the beginning of the movie; however, due to the script given to the actors and how Thor's actor makes it unintentionally seem like he is faking his mood. He comes across as a teenager going through puberty without the voice cracking.
Yes exactly. It doesn't feel real.
very true
Yep, I was expecting a dark version of Thor during Endgame bcus I thought all of his ppl were slaughtered so he bcame "Ronin"-esque
But they make him a punchline, ok let see what happens, then this movie is perfect........for my 10 yrs old
Even an episode of Spongebob more interesting thn this shht
U got mothrfckin C. Bale as a villain, come on🤦
What a waste of talent
Yeah, generally in scenes where characters speak exactly as they feel without subtext, you need some kind of element that makes them break first. Examples are furious, very drunk or some similarly mentally compromised state.
Yeah I couldn't even tell if thor actually had an arc. The first one may be boring for some but he did have an arc
That Sif scene's dialogue (and actually a lot of the dialogue in the film) felt like it was taken from the parody play that Loki (as Odin) was watching in Ragnarok.
That's why I love the tv series "Lost" so much. They leave it to the audience to work it out. It was a near perfect series. They treat the audience as smart and didn't just hand you all the answers. You need to think and work it out yourself. Unfortunately there were many people that complained about not being spoon fed all the answers
This movie expects the audience to work out i's Korg telling the story. He's no Shakespeare.
There were more people pointing out that Abrams and Lindelof did not have the answers after expanding the show from 3 to 6 seasons.
The audience thought they could figure it out and stay ahead of the reveals but season 6 then suddenly diverges from what has been established in the last three seasons.
From there you simply had to accept what the final episodes fed you.
@@michaelklaus tbh I never understood what they meant about the magic box on the island that could offer anyone what they wanted. They mentioned it and never revisited it again lol
"Don't give them 4; give them 2 + 2." That's one of the best explanations of subtext I've ever heard. 👍
Christian Bale was too good for this movie. His acting and storytelling in the movie was so well done, if felt like every time his scenes came on I was watching a different movie.
By far the best part of the whole movie
Haha you worded my thoughts!!
He made a very compelling Marvel villain and was absolutely wasted.
The Gorr character felt like he was from a different movie.
@@jppitch6734
Huge waste of both Gorr and Bales talent.
Now I’m hoping they don’t touch someone like Jack Nicholson, De Niro or Leo because they’ll probably just waste them.
This is a great video! I found the movie entertaining but it also felt like the entire thing was one big joke, a lot of the deeper themes were lost in it. This articulates a lot of what was off about it. I’m learning a lot about stories from this channel, thank you for all your hard work! Makes me want to really start writing again.
Because it IS one big joke. It's the events as told by Korg, the big dumb and lovable goofball of a rock man that he is. The story is just as ridiculous as one should expect it to be as told by him.
Yeah Waititi made the movie a comedy and only paid lip service to the God Butcher threat with a couple of lack luster action scenes that were just CGI green screen garbage. This seemed more like a superhero parody of Thor and just shows Waititi’s contempt for superheroes, the characters and above all the audience.
I’ve written a few books before (never got any published) and this video actually taught me alot. I will try to learn the tool of subtext while writing my next storys.
The script to Jojo Rabbit shows that Taika is a skilled storyteller (i.e., the buildup and the actual ‘red shoe’ scene). He was rewarded with an Oscar for his skill. That makes Love and Thunder even more disappointing since Taika has the ability to do better.
tbh, it doesnt feel like he gave a shit this time. I love Taika's other movies when he actually cares for the project.
The thing about Marvel movies is that they have to be written very fast. So there's no revisions, no second drafts - that's also why there's so much reports of huge chunks of footage being cut in the final edit.
His best work imo jjr and hftw were both fairly faithfully adapted from nevels by remarkable writers, hes an excellent director but im not sure about his writing abilities really, after his god aweful mandalorian episodes too yikes, even what we do in the shadows was co written by jermain clemant
I don't think Taika is flawless, but I think disney might take some important creative freedoms from writers that shouldn't ever be taken. The short times the writers have also play a part in this. Jon Favreau is a skilled storyteller as well, but some Mando storylines feel like Jon wanted to do more with it, but had too little time to properly do it. I think disney should take a step back. The thing that made Rogue One one of the greatest Star Wars movies was that the writers were free to do whatever the hell they wanted. I think that disneys end stage capitalism essentially is what is responsible for the drops in quality. Taika is incredibly talented and Jojo Rabbit was one of the best movies I have ever seen which makes it even more sad that L&T turned out the way it is
@@mondsgesandter I think L&T turned out bad either because disney fiddled too much or/and Taika wasn't 100% on board or interested
I remember in an interview Christian bale said he gets so immersed in character because if a director ever goes “ this scene is bad, we’re doing our own thing” he wants to be able to improv the dialogue on the spot. Imagine if he’d done that.
you should do a research about ironman and you will know MCU won't allowed to make real movies
@@boboboy8189 interesting wdym
@@na.meless The original Iron Man was made without a script. They had to improvise most of it and yet it ended up being one of the best MCU movies. However as the MCU became really popular, the studio executives had more control over the films (Mickey Rourke from IM2 complained that his character was reduced to a one dimensional villain despite the fact he learned fluent Russian and researched Russian criminal mannerisms for the role).
After Disney bought Marvel, the directors are basically hired hands. One director said that the action scenes were already shot by someone else before they even started the film and the producers wouldn't let them change anything in the script. Strangely though, Taika seems to have had complete creative freedom - the first cut of Thor 4 was four hours long.
@@JonnyEarthquake can't remember who made the video but someone was explaining that although Taika is a talented director he actually needs to be kept on a leash so to speak. He can obviously make good movies. Ragnarok is a good example. But he needs to have some of that creativity in check, otherwise it runs rampant and you get a mess like this.
@@JonnyEarthquake really interesting
I think one problem is modern screenwriters might be less versed in dramatic history; i.e: plays. Read enough plays , and you are in a world of dialogue. it's all dialogue and subtext. They need to study the masters more. Also, a lot of mainstream comics writing isn't all that great either.
2:25 this feels way more like a marvel scene than how the actual movie was
Interesting that you brought up Andrew Stanton when talking about hiding exposition as apparently you can watch the entirety of Wall-E in an unknown language and still perfectly understand the story.
Pretty cool
That's not hidden exposition, that's visual storytelling. Different things.
@@UnitSe7en Well filmmaking is the combination of visual and audio to tell a story. So anything is a go to hide exposition as long as it's still functionally a movie.
Anyways it still illustrates how godly Andrew Stanton is if he manages to hide basically all of the exposition in a film.
Didn't realize Wall-E was essentially a silent movie. One advantage of the old silents tho - they had to show not tell, if they didn't want to bore audiences with a ton of intertitles.
I love how you not only critique things but actually always add your own (better) version. That's how it should always be done
Thanks, glad you like it!
Examples, I have started to say, are the life of an essay or disquisition.
@@TheCloserLook Putting 'constructive' in constructive criticism!
Exactly! Not enough review channels do this!! It might be fun to pick apart a movie and point out everything that’s wrong, but it takes thought and skill to actually give a genuine critique and provide solutions. You have to say, “This is how I would have done it, given the chance.” And then you explain why.
@@TheCloserLook I also love that you give examples of other projects who did it right. That way we the audience can examine why we liked one thing and didn't like the other.
I love how he writes one of the best dialogue exchanges I’ve seen in a while and is like “Oh, it isn’t Shakespeare”
The narration in the movie literally sounds like a person reading a children's story book, like the next line will be "and they all lived happily ever after, the end."
This is a prime example of one of the most important rules in writing: Show, not tell.
1000% THIS
i get it but hehe how can you show in writing since its words
@@moonlightshadow9390 Here's how you do it in writing.
Tell: "He's my best friend since we were kids."
Show: "I've been stuck with him even before my voice dropped."
See the difference?
@@mashupotato How to show with "words"
arrange words to form a picture?XD
@@mashupotato Nah dw I understand the point
I just found the saying funny when I thought about it
Sif also could have said something referencing Odin, something like ‘I’ll tell father hello’ and then a sort of anguished look crosses Thor’s face. I think something like that is more thematically appropriate when a character is on the brink of death than a *joke*
They reference Odin like we reference God, I don't think she'd call him 'father'
@@HappyLarry. no I think they meant like, she'd say to Thor "I'll tell [YOUR] father hello" because she was taking to Thor, the son of Odin
@@grantbmilburn you don't need to explain the basics of Norse mythology to me, believe it or not I'm not just talking out of my arse. They are quite clearly not referencing him in the way he is called All-Father, they are talking in a biological sense. If they had literally used All-Father in the comment I wouldn't be responding would I?
@@KateCat420 Or 'All Father'
@@HappyLarry. Suddenly playing victim lol
I think it is a trope in many movies that characters kinda drop their personalities during a dramatic moment, and have this weird dramatic sentimental personality that makes them seem like they're schizophrenic or that another character is talking through them. If they had dialogue and behavior during those scenes, that kept in line more with the personality that had been carefully established beforehand, then it might be way less stilted and even more expansive and a stretching of their personality to see how they would uniquely react to a dramatic or climactic moment.
4:30 I honestly think a combination between what was in the movie and your proposal would have been best for having the joke. "Leave me to die my warrior's death.... I wish to claim my place in Valhalla."
Also thank you for making this argument from the angle of subtext rather than using the phrase "show don't tell" because like... sometimes you do need to be told things. Remembering that subtext is a thing promotes a balance, and that's real nice.
As someone who’s been studying screenwriting for nearly a decade now, almost all of Marvel needs to reevaluate their approach to writing. The problem they have is that they intend to craft scenes around jokes or absurd/awkward moments. That’s not how you write a proper story, and that’s why they’ve fallen short in the emotional aspect of their stories in recent years. Your first draft in any story should work to ensure that the film’s plot is strong enough to carry out all character arcs, subplots, etc. to fruition. From there, your second draft adds more personality to the characters and fine-tunes any interactions so that those arcs, subplots, etc. are strengthened. Then your final revisions should deal with making sure that those moments you just strengthened still allow the story to flow properly. No portion of this film should have been focused on making a joke, especially since so much of it lacked in real character development as well.
Cheers for that story
There are so many times I watch movies these days where I feel like I'm watching a first draft. You watch a scene that you swear was supposed to be a "placeholder" to get from point A to point C, but then they never went back and rewrote a polished point B scene.
Early MCU did subtext well, but new MCU isn't the same. I lost interest after Endgame.
May I ask what you are doing now though… I always wanted to write stories but feel terrified ….
@@applicationpostgraduate7507 If it makes you feel better, you're under no obligation to show your writing to anyone else. Just have fun with it.
It's really sad cause the characters and emotions and compelling story is right within reach. It just seems that Taika wasn't really trying. It's the frustrating mishandling of great stories that has plagued phase 4.
I wouldn't say its necessarily a matter of taika not trying, so much as him being rushed. Taika has always had the same process, write the script, abandon it for a year or so, come back to it, say "who wrote this?" And rewrite it entirely. It's a whole process. While it's super possible he had the time, I heard him talk about editing thor 4 on set the set of our flag means death, still in costume. It's very possible we skipped the "who wrote this?" Step whole sale
There must have been something huge that happened behind the scenes to mess up the production. *Everything* about Love & Thunder felt so sloppy. Like he mentioned in the video, there are some awful dialogue edits, and also some equally bad visual edits or obvious missing/cut scenes. Plus the over-reliance on narration to carry the story. A well-planned film doesn't look like this.
holy shit that first dialogue exchange between Thor and Quill was straight out of Riverdale
This is quite good, and expresses something that I've employed in my own writing without really realizing it or putting a name to it. This is also surely one of the big problems I had with the Thor movie as well as many scenes in modern anime.
Dialogue is the one thing I always make sure to spend a lot of time on; my story might not be expertly crafted, but you can guarantee that the conversations will always feel natural!
I think that's why I loved Everything Everywhere All at Once so much was because it was demanding from the first couple minutes it started. It didn't dumb anything down and it made you pay attention and work for the information. And it was complicated, fun, bonkers creative and I loved it and as soon as I left the theaters I not only wanted to see it again but I wanted to tell everybody about it.
Bruh that movie is so stupid felt like a 4yo watching it what u on about.
Really? I thought Everything Everywhre All at Once just spelled out everything (after the first scene) a million times and just tried to beat your head with the message.
Speaking of which I want to see Henry analyze something fascinating about EEAAO. It's certainly better than how Doctor strange 2 failed at magic.
@@sarasamaletdin4574 oh hardly, that's more what dr strange 2 did
@@sarasamaletdin4574 It's not beating YOU with the message, it's beating the mom over the head with the message. Early on, we learn the main character doesn't understand English well. She doesn't understand anything particularly well. Everything is beating her on the head with the message hoping to make her understand. She doesn't understand what's wrong with her relationship with her daughter. She doesn't understand why her husband wants to divorce. She doesn't understand. So the movie has to beat her on the head with it. Only when it's arguably too late does she start to understand, and only sort of. And then she has to forge her path.
14:20 lmao I love the “even if you’re hyper vigilant” as you’re typing your credit card number into an email.🤣🤣🤣
I'm sure that having to work for Disney played a role in this... Whether because his heart wasn't in it and/or their meddling... Because anyone who's ever seen his works like Boy or Hunt for the Wilder people or Jojo Rabbit know that Taika is MORE THAN CAPABLE of writing with subtext beautifully.
it's sad because I can only imagine how much better Marvel would be if it weren't owned by Disney
Don’t you think that opening scene could’ve been even more impactful if Star Lord was Rocket ?
Since they’ve already had this type of conversation before in infinity war
It’d be interesting if after everything with Thanos to establish Thor is still in the place of ‘what more could I lose?’
Although maybe that would’ve been a slightly different movie
Oh, yeah that would be a great idea.
Taika doesn't care about past meaningful relationships characters built. Sigh
It'd be a much more impactful movie had the Guardians stuck around much longer. There are parallels between the team and Thor, and even parallels between Quill and Jane, that were too good to miss and yet, they were.
That would be assuming that Taika cares about Thor and Rocket's friendship, which he clearly does not.
@@peterfrank3365 But I was happy that the Guardians got to escape this horrible movie and useless manchild Thor. Good for them.
That scene with Sif felt like I was legit watching Superhero Movie or something, as did pretty much the entire movie
Honestly, I think even Superhero Movie took itself more seriously than this
It's like they took the "purposely crap play" joke from Ragnarok, and wrote the whole movie that way
@@tevenpowell8023 They couldn't even come up with a new concept, they just repeated the purposefully crap play again. At least Top Gun switched the beach volleyball for football to make it more unique for an essentially identical scene
The thing that bugs me most about this movie was the tonal inconsistencies; ragnorok was funny to be a one off and make things dark when infinity wars hits, it worked and marvel just said "lets do that again" after thor lost everyone in his family, (especially his recently reconsiled brother) and half the universe because he didnt "aim for the head"
Marvel also realized how strong thor should be, they didn't put him in civil war, they only had him fight hulk for a second and he started annihilating him, he took on thanos and the full power of the stones in seconds, because hes op. When he showed up to wakanda, everyone knew the fight was over. But then they thought "ragnarok was fun lets do that again" and they just completely leave his history
I love how you explained you can do exposition better with subtext. There's a lot of slack about exposition out there, but you actually have an alternative instead of just complaining about it.
1:30 oh my god, that's genius! It would've significantly been less awkward, and for the fans who've been following the mcu's timeline for a while now, that "long silence" would've practically been a nod to the 2 characters' dynamic; both had loved greatly, both had lost greatly. They both understand each other, and that "silence" would've given long-time fans enough information to basically, in a way, "see" the original dialogue exchange between them in the actual movie. Genius.
I'm not going to lie, this movie has way more problems than just bad dialogue. But it was nice that you pointed it out.
I just hope this movie doesn't impede Christian Bale's reputation in any way.
I doubt it will, bale is an accomplished actor and he was easily the best part of the movie
Bale as Gorr was one the best things about Love and Thunder, so I wouldn't worry too much
Yeah right I'm like this movie's dialogues are the least of my problems and I think christian bale is one of those actors who've proved themselves already even a project worse than love and thunder won't have an effect in his reputation, it's like de niro doing that stupid grandpa film, I'm sure nobody thought of him as any less of an actor
@@ea6102 You're probably right.
Pretty much every review of this movie praises his acting as the best part of the movie, so I'd say he's alright. It's to the point that it feels like he's in a completely different movie altogether.
4:17 Lady Stiff
The interesting bit about narration in films - the narration also has to add something to the story. If someone is expositing a story where you can clearly see and hear what is going on, it feels redundant and boring. If the narration, however, tells us, the viewer, something about the characters that the characters don't want to confront or is not revealed in character dialogue or expression, then it becomes witty and adds another layer of dimension to the story.
Character A: "I like red wine," he said to the pretty girl beside him. *Face is grinning, excited while he orders a glass of red*
Narrator: [Character A] Did not in fact like red wine, but he recalled the first time he'd ever looked at a beautiful woman. The lady across the street who always drank red wine matching her lipstick. It wasn't the wine that held his attention. It was her lips. The same lips he now found on the woman across from him he so desperately wanted to please.
The dialogue above is garbage, so forgive me, but the narrator in this example gives us insight to Character A's memories we were not privy to before. Thus adding to the story.
Watching these well thought-out and constructive criticisms, I kept thinking, "Yeah, that would be better if Love and Thunder wanted to be a genuinely dramatic movie, but it just wanted to be an awkward improv parody thing."
I just imagine Taika responding to any of these criticisms with, "Yes, exactly! It's terrible and stupid, and it makes me laugh."
Only issue is he's one of very few actually laughing!
It's crazy how there's children's animated movies with more depth to their characters and dialogue
Well yes because children’s stuff talks in an easy way for people to understand
I've always hated the quips, because they show that the characters don't take the threats seriously. So of course the viewers can't take them seriously either. Viewers loved the quips for a while, but now they've realized that they destroy all the dramatic tension.
Makes sense considering any movie was made by adults, and is the passion of those adults, so you’d hope anyone would be able to enjoy it, not just kids
Children’s stories need to have depth, for the sake of the kids and their adults who bring them. If it’s all brain dead rubbish, we’ll be left with loads of brain dead adults in a decade or so. If they’re challenging and have layers to benefit all ages then you get adults who can enjoy films and might be more empathetic to other view points.
Adult movies just need to keep our mind occupied for two hours, kids movies should be developing theirs.
You speak as if children's animated movies is a handicapp for character depth.
12:04 this reminds me of the tv show Psych, this is probably why it’s such a joy to watch
Basically how to do dialogue
1: the dialogue must have some kind of soul or charm so it doesn’t feel soulless
2: it must tell the audience something without flat out telling the audience
That example at the start had me convinced it was Korg making the dialogue up as part of his narration for a while.
In a meta way it was as Korg *is* Tika Wititi.
Look who it is
Another thing lack of subtext does is make it feel like the writers don't trust the actors' abilities. I believe Chris Hemsworth is capable of showing us how distanced from society his character feels through his expressions and tone. It kind of feels like Waititi doesn't.
I'm currently in the process of penning up a character's backstory for a bio and have them meet a character that is like their past self but has a core philosophy that's different. Basically, the "main" character was a hotshot who neglected her community because she thought she was better than them and could handle herself in dangerous situations only to eat 2 piping hot slices of humble pie before realizing that her reckless behavior only put others at risk, so she wised up and became a team player and grew ever closer to her tightknit community she now lives in after exile from where she grew up. Then comes a newcomer that she rescues from the wild and brings back to get him patched up. When she returns from patrol that evening, she finds that he made a runner while she was gone and thankfully didnt get far before succumbing to his injuries and getting dragged back and she volunteers to watch him through the night despite already having been on patrol all day. She then learns some of his take on the situation: he insists he doesnt need the help and she challenges him to haul himself out of there, naturally he fails. She insists he stay and recover, paralleling when she first arrived and first thing in her mind was leaving since she thought she didnt need the help. They have a back and forth before she tells him to just get some rest. In the morning he's making a fuss, refusing even the food they offer him like a child, just wanting to be rid of this place, then he's released and he runs along. Not a few days later she finds him again in the same situation so she rescues him again and sticks around in order to chat with him once he awakens, having clocked his petulent attitude the last time but not being able to pinpoint an exact cause for such behavior. She tries offering him food, the kind he demanded last time and he insists on not accepting the handout. She tries to pry a little as he only pushes her away more before she gives him a "...because you're me" esc monologue, finally cracking that hard facade, having cornered him in the conversation by telling him exactly how it is, and having him defeatedly mutter a clue of his mindset, that he thinks it'd serve folks right if they got hurt trying to help him. She then pries some more and gets him to spout his fear that they'd just kick him to the curb when he least expects it like everyone else does, finally laying bare his mindset and why he acts how he does.
In previous drafts, the reveal wasnt as built up, instead it was borne of when she dragged him back in the middle of the first day and he just spits out the whole "why bother helping me? I know youre just gonna toss me out when it's convenient so I may as well not let myself be vulnerable to you" nearly completely unprompted and looking back, this video helps explain why that sucked and left no room for her to get a wedge into that hard exterior to help him open up after that.
The other problem with the writing of (recent) Marvel movies is that no emotional scene can exist alone, it is always followed up by some trite, undercutting humor or gotchya
A lot of times when you see a film you realize they went to shooting too soon. The script was not quite ready. These things could have been ironed out in another pass or two. But studios are in a rush to produce. Taika is actually a really good screenwriter. You see what he can do when he has the time. He spent years thinking about JoJo Rabbit. Same with M. Night Shyamalan. The Sixth Sense went through 17 drafts. Nobody was watching their calendar waiting for him. All the movies after that, he's usually been on a tight schedule.
It's crazy to be that professional writers and a crazy budgeted movie, can screw up basic writing techniques. Like, I'm not a writer, but I know that 'show, don't tell' is like a fundamental concept.
yeah lmao first thing i learnt in drama when i was in 6th grade/ year seven was show dont tell
It probably means they did it in purpose, it just didn't land
I think it was intentional, but the joke didn't work...who knows. There are some very bad writers out there lol
I think it was a combination of the rush to make a new movie and a lack of actual love for the project by the writers and director
Trouble is I suspect they adlib a lot of the "jokes" making each other laugh on the day sure but it doesn't make good storytelling.
I read a book that implemented the 2+2 model extremely well. Now i need to tell everyone I DONT read but im trying to get into it slowly so i bought a couple of books, one of them really captivated me because it kept using well placed hooks to keep the reader engaged, its called the silent patient
I like to compose and produce music and never really thought about dialog, as storytelling is not really an artform I've thought about much. However, it's interesting that the weaknesses of Thor are so similar to a lot of issues in music composition. If you feed your audience chords that are too predictable, it bores. You have to make it interestingly enough so it does take a bit of effort to guess what is coming, yet you also do not want to just create anything too chaotic that is incompressible. You have to feed them just the right amount (which is difficult of course, since everyone has slightly different speeds of calculation in their heads). However, the concept is so similar to writing, apparently.
It’s especially egregious in the first scene because someone insecure and socially awkward would not explain their feelings easily and make all subtext text. It might work for Drax because his character is supposed to say everything literally and openly.
As for narration, the director must ask “is there a way to show this? Is there a way for one character to explain it to another?” And most of all “Is this information necessary to convey to the audience?”
Thor 4 seemed so tantalizingly close to being actually really good. Like, a well-considered 5% extra amount of effort could have fixed the dialogue and plot issues and given the actors a chance to really shine through their roles.
If the whole thing was completely rewritten and CGI scenes were polished. Yes.
Portman and Bale, and even Hemsforth were very very good. An interesting premise, a pathetically written script. Yep, the rewrite would have come in handy. I think, Waititi was indulged too much. By studio, by himself. Just no one told him to take it more seriously. Completely wasted time it was for me.
@@CATDHD I found Portman a bland non-entity. Bale was good.
Lmao that is not at all the analysis I would've gone with. It was somehow a worse Thor: Dark World, I don't know how it's supposed to be good
0:30 I was convinced that that was the joke though, that Thor speaks really formally and dramatically whilst Peter is trying to mimic his way of speaking in order to seem as cool as him
Scorsese is the master of utilising narration in his films. Goodfellas and Casino are filled with narration but it adds to the theatricality in clever ways.
You can just tell that Taika is not really comfortable with non-original stuff, not without someone telling him no at least
Idk, Ragnarok seemed to do well with him having their hand on the wheel as well. Reigned him in a bit. Love & Thunder it seems they just let him go full Watiti.
@@ghiggs8389 exactly, I don't hate the guy but he's putting too much of his "style" and himself in the movies for my taste.
@@existentialnihil he turned the movie into an epic Old Spice commercial.
@@existentialnihilbut his style isn’t necessarily the issue, jojo rabbit was both funny and dramatic with good writing. Even thought what we do in the shadows was in no means dramatic it was still well written. This entire movie felt like a caricature of wiatiti’s own style or like some cheap imitation.
@@raahimkamaal5363 He needs to stick to comedy. What We Do In The Shadows was hilarious.
The lack of subtext sometimes feels like being held in contempt by the writer. Almost like they're convinced that the audience in general, and me in particular, couldn't possibly be smart enough to understand their masterpiece without having my hand held the whole way through.
It's more laziness, first drafts often have expositional dialogue
i always thought the scene with starlord was so weird because that was the "joke". Like Thor talks in a weird way so star lord was kind of mimicking that way of speaking either to mock him or communicate with him.
Hey, anyone know what the song in the outro is?
Aint really expecting a reply but might as well ask and hope
This movie was so unbelievable bad, really sad compared to how good the third movie was.
the third was terrible too
@@nalday2534the third one was amazing compared to Thor 1 and 2
@@aperson8420nah it's garbage. first is the only decent thor movie so far
@@nalday2534 Very much agree, so refreshing to hear someone else share this sentiment. 3rd movie was bad, just like the 4th. I won't even mention Dark World lol. 1st was the only movie worth a damn.
Third was a good comedy. But most of the issues in the 4th were present in the third, except the humor was better and its flaws therefore much less egregious.
With the “plumber” line, it can also indicate that she’s in need of some “good news” to picker her up after a bad day of work. The lady in that example is unconsciously giving her partner a chance to lift her spirits with something positive.
Honestly, I enjoyed the narration more than most of the rest of the film. I love Tikas humor in general, and when he's telling you about the film as an omnicient narrator, I thought it worked much better than when the rest of the characters were in the same style. Dialogue like Thor 1 with Tikas narration would be 👌 in my book
I truly enjoyed this video and subscribed. Excellent analysis!!!!
I think there is some confusion between bland dialogue and unrealistic dialogue, though they can overlap sometimes. Indeed this film's dialogue is painfully inhuman to the point that the screenplay needed at least three more drafts, but its issue is in how disconnected it is emotionally in the movie, not just that it's unrealistic. Film characters speak unrealistically all the time, especially in great films (Tarantino and Paul Thomas Anderson, anyone?) but they work to serve the purpose of the whole film, and they are both supported by and complement the story. Thor: Love & Thunder is trying to be 4 movies at once, and the dialogue reflects that: dull, poor, emotionally detached, and yet unwarrantedly bonkers. It just doesn't work.
Thank you for saying this! I keep listening to the first example and (admittedly) I don't know if I hear what makes it more tell than show, as much as it feels stiff -- and I'm guessing that stiffness (based on your comment) is bc there's no real emotion behind it
I didnt mind the bonkers bit. It suggested the idea that for all of Thor's attempts at being in control of his life, he really wasn't and chaos followed him everywhere. I liked that because it reminded me of times in my own life where I wasn't in control of anything, it just happened around me and sometimes I remembered to react to it.
I would like to highlight something my friend told me that really changes how I look at the movie. Korg isn't just the narrator in parts where there is narration, Korg is telling the story the whole time, and Korg is a somewhat unreliable narrator who is a bit silly, and importantly here doesn't really do subtext.
I really think that's what the writers were going for, and that's why this movie is as zany as it is, Korg is telling the whole story, however I also think that was a mistake. They nailed it, they achieved what they wanted really effectively in this scenario, but overall for the audience it just isn't good
I just had an idea. What if the writers cut the silly story at half time and started describing a very very dark reality for the restbof the movie? I mean the vilain is literally killing gods.
I've heard this explanation before, but I think it's just copium to cover for the film's weaknesses. Too many jokes? Korg is a silly, unreliable narrator. Thor acted like a total dumbass? Korg is a silly, unreliable narrator. None of the drama ever landed with any impact? Korg is, again, a silly, unreliable narrator.
I saw people using this same hand-waving when it came to the Birds of Prey movie, where some people felt they could just explain away anything dumb in the film as "Oh, Harley is an unreliable narrator."
And, if that was actually the case, then it would be a really lame way to cover your ass as a writer. If people like the film, hoorah! Oh but if they don't, the writer can just take refuge in "Oh, that was told by an unreliable narrator, the REAL story wasn't quite as silly." It's a unique take, but is little more than a theory meant to explain away any deficiencies the film had.
@@empiricalsmut9419 I totally agree. Even if movie is actually supposed to be unreliably narrated by Korg (which it obviously wasn't), then how about producers find some competent and reliable narrators instead? We don't need explanations, we need a good movie with a solid storytelling. I don't give a spit if it's by Korg or David Fincher, I just need it to be good.
Korg is literally Taika Waititi. Its not even a character. Korg being an unreliable narrator only says about how much of a shitty job Taika did.
@@empiricalsmut9419 Don’t drag B.O.P. into this!!
Taika’s team clearly thought the reason why Ragnarok was successful was because of the humor. I’ve never been more frustrated watching Thor 4, I kid you not every time I’d start to get invested in something happening they’d throw another joke on screen…
One interpretation could be that the story is all from Korg's perspective (given that he narrates both the beginning and ending), and Korg is essentially Taika inserting himself into the movie, which may be why the dialogue and film overall comes off as facetious as it does
It isn't an interpretation that the whole movie is the story being told by Korg. It clearly is. And we know Korg is ridiculous, silly, dumb, and a goofball. So the film is HIS version of events. This is a Korg movie, not a Thor movie.
The Closer Look: subtext
* Disney writers have left the chat *
I HATE when games tell you how to solve a problem when you're figuring it out. Or when you're about to use a skill or attack or shoot a weak spot and right as you're about to do it, the game tells you what to do. That's always irked me. It's like, "come on, man. give me a chance to figure it out on my own!"
You need to avoid Horizon Forbidden West
Thats why I liked Hitman
@@JC-rr4snfellow Hitman enjoyer
God of war lol
YES.
So it's a classic case of "Show, don't tell"
That whole "game ruining the puzzle for you" thing is so frustrating.
Like, when it comes to the Lost Woods in TotK, I was trying to help a friend without spelling it out for them, so I had to pick my words carefully. I went with "You can't drop in, and you can't get in on foot, but there's another way in." And let them figure it out themselves.
If TotK had a Navi character, I feel like they'd say the same thing, and then add, "If only there was a way to get underneath it" or "Maybe there's a secret tunnel" or something that would completely spell out that you need to go into the depths and find a pillar you can ascend through.
The funny thing is, he keeps saying "this dialogue is not exactly Shakespeare", and Shakespeare was actually very, very explicit in his writing (specially on the monologues). It was great though, and there's a reason why it's still relevant today. But... the complexity of his writing wasn't just because it was subtle. Quite on the contrary.
Arcane does an amazing job of this throughout the series, but perhaps especially in the beginning. In a matter of a couple minutes we are introduced to the overarching conflict of the show, the main characters and their history with the conflict, the relationships between these characters, and we even get hints at the toll it all has taken on them.
Spoilers:
Another great example is the Jinx vs Echo fight. Two characters who previously had little interaction are given a fairly fleshed out relationship during a fight scene!
But they had to show up their relationship through the animation of the fight -- A lot of people watched that and were confused bc it felt like "why are we supposed to care that they played as kids when this is the first time we're seeing it -- they could have shown us a hint of that somewhere in the first three episodes")
@milkflavored Good point. We did know they were all friends, but I don't disagree, though I do think it has a certain unique impact, or flavor, by revealing it the way it did.
The primary example of show not tell that comes to my head in film is the Married Life sequence in Up.
I honestly leaned into the sitcomish type of over the top stilted conversations in this movie. Maybe because I had recently went though some stuff in life which changed my perspective about life and the meaning of everything which has resulted in a somewhat positive-nihilism approach to life and have embraced the over the top rediculous side to everything. It is certainly not enjoyable to watch without embracing the zany nature of its mood, and it definitely has some issues with the flow of the story etc etc but I really loved the way the movie embraced humour along with the themes of death and loss. I watched Everything everywhere all at once a few weeks before watching this movie so maybe the glorious insanity of that movie being bresh in my mind allowed me to enjoy this thor more than I should have maybe, I dunno!
I’m glad you said this. I actually felt something quite similar. Like yes the whole story arc didn’t benefit from it but I didn’t hate it. Didn’t love it but I could genuinely laugh at times.
The first (and only) time I saw TLAT, I remember wondering if Chris Pratt and Chris Hemsworth shot scenes separately and the dialogue was edited together later, it felt THAT unnatural.
Better Call Saul is a great example of a show that uses subtext masterfully.
I second that. It's not /quite/ as good as Breaking Bad, but it's an awesome example of great writing nonetheless.
“I can’t even say say that line, I’m not going to redo it” redoes it