What most Instructors don’t mention is that in a true combat situation where your life is in danger YOUR BRAIN WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO TAKE YOUR FOCUS OFF THE THREAT. front sight focus works well for target purists. But combat shooting you will have to focus on the threat so that’s how you need to practice.
I have been a slave to the “front sight focus” dogma from my first training class years ago and after watching this interview went to the range to try and be aware of the sights in general(both front and rear)as well as the target as an altogether sight picture. Groups became more consistent and I was able to be a little more relaxed in acquiring a sight picture using both sights plus target as a package. Always stressed a bit when constantly trying to pick up and focus on a tiny dot. Thanks for the insights from a couple of pros!
Its quite intresting that when shooting clays (shotguns), the focus is always the target (ie, the clay). And if you start to aim the shotgun, you will miss more then you hit. And thats with the basic shotgun sights - just a front sight and no rear sight. clay shooting needs a well fitting shotgun to perform good, but focus is always the clay and the shotgun should just be there. whereas pistol shooting is teached "front sight", but my right eye has a refractive error so in certain lighting conditions the sights gets really hard to focus on. So will try and train this, as it would relax my eyes more. Really insightfull video..
The only thing I've ever been able to do consistently while focusing on my front sight is suck. By focusing on where I want the bullet to go in the target and bringing my sights into line with it, my groups are consistently better.
Sorry, but I am 68 and I only use iron sights----and have generally (at ranges of 3-25 yards) focused on the targets and had the iron sights slightly blurry. It has thus far served me well.
Having shot target archery for many years, I was taught to focus on the spot I wanted to hit and let the pin float. When I started shooting pistols years later I just automatically did the same thing with iron sights. Then having pistol instructors tell me to focus on the front sight, I tried, but just never could get the knack for it. I still focus on the spot I want to hit. It's nice hearing that I was doing it right the whole time. 😁
Great video! Thank you! I started shooting when I was 8 years old, taught by my father. Over 30 years ago I was a pistol instructor for a while. Other than a mandated concealed carry class when I moved to another state I haven't taken any formal training in 30 years, but I do practice. Over the years I have taught a number of people to shoot, especially women, just as a friendly thing to do. Poking around on the internet now I find so much discussion on these matters. The way I learned, the primary focus is always the target and if it isn't you shouldn't even have a finger on the trigger let alone fire the weapon. Whether iron sight, scopes, red dots, pistols, rifles, shotguns, the principle is the same. When I was 8, after putting rounds on paper with a Marlin .22 lever gun, my dad taped the sights over and tossed clay pigeons. I had to learn to shoot those, and I did, with no sights. Over the years I "modernized" my grip and stance, but never lost the focus on the target. It just seems so obvious to me. I was at a commercial range a couple years ago and had a conversation with the young man behind the counter. He criticized me for not taking classes, he was an instructor and assured me things had changed and I had developed bad habits over the years. He hadn't even seen me shoot yet. He was pretty proud of himself, almost arrogant, open carrying a full size duty weapon at work. Then he saw me shoot. Do I have bad habits? Absolutely, but they have more to do with my wife than my shooting. LOL!
Agree always focus on the target and bring the gun up and the sights will be in focus on the target. sorta like shooting clays. follow the bird and bring the gun up to the bird and the sight on the gun will automatically focus on the bird.
@@kennylavay8492 mist be why the original way of shooting a pistol in the military was one handed like the barrel was your index finger and you were pointing
Because the instructors came from a match target shooting background, they taught a style not appropriate for high stress and dynamic gun fights. Shooting 24 MOA under stress with a pistol is more than combat effective but may be easier with two hands and target focus.
Man, I was at the range today, for the second time, wondering why I couldn't make it on paper. I started looking at the target, and it finally came together. Thank you.
As a past US Olympic Rifle Team candidate and ex-military there is a diffence in application to specialities. Pistols and eifles. His explanations are pretty spot on though. He gives good advice.
There's a huge difference between ten ring target shooting (front sight focus ) and combat or action shooting (target and rear sight acquisition focus). Practice, practice, practice for muscle memory and instinctive aiming.
@@the1knifepro169 Simo Häyhä used iron sights, and he used the aim that worked for him. I was shooting the Swedish K when I did my military service and it had iron sights.
I am an older shooter (not competition). Sorry for the long post... I originally learned what is discussed here. At some point (perhaps 10 or so years ago) with a seeming flood of "fierce front sight focus" leaning trends, I focused on learning that method. My aim skills decreased for a while and then ...well,. even after dialing it in, it just never was a fit for me. Not that you do not have to learn/understand about competent/proper sights focus and reacquisition technique, which includes strong front sight awareness, but... Returning to method of greater "target focus" with peripheral sights focus (say 30% or so), I am a more accurate and relaxed shooter (once again). I also feel more apt in environmental and situational awareness and moving, and pointing under pressure. I appreciate the video. There's a few other experts out there (Leatham, Hristov and many others) that discuss very well aspects of either point~shoot and/or other alternative interpretations of "front sight focus methods" that I found helpful (for breaking out of 'fierce front sight focus methods' dilemma /what caused some confusion for me personally [especially the fuzzy target result /thing]). I'm no expert so I have a little trepidation commenting. Many whom I admire (as experts) advocate hard 'front sight focus'. I am just one of those, perhaps due to decades of alternate old-school training, it just did not land for. I "do" (have always) conduct strong focus on the front sight, I simply take "focus" not to mean fixating or "looking directly at". I "look" at the smallest spot possible on what I am aiming at, whether shooting right out of the draw OR with/when gunsights at eye-level. If you are someone reading this, I hope it is helpful.
I got trifocal glasses so I could finally focus on the front sight. Then realized I was faster and more consistent with target focus and soft focused sight picture. Target focus works best for shotguns too.
There is a video of Tim Herron drawing, shooting one round and splitting a playing card in half in 1.3 sec. I have seen him on a lot of podcasts, but I was unaware of his skill level. Some people scoff at trick shooting, but that's a hard shot to make.
Discovered target focused iron sight shooting basically on my own a year or two ago -- primarily because I began to experiment with red dots, and I started to really develop an interest in IDPA where the inefficiencies of front sight focused shooting became painfully apparent. Hearing high level shooters validate this technique is pretty fulfilling. From the very beginning as a new shooter, and as recently as 5 or 6 years ago, the mantra of every instructor I had was "front sight, front sight, front sight". This might be acceptable for slow fire bullseye/accuracy shooting, but for modern shooting sports and defensive type shooting, it's a handicap, yet I still see it being taught as dogma.
I Actually did exactly what he said when I went back to the irons after working with a dot for a while. The target focus approach has me shooting faster and better at close to medium range.
Like Tim and several of the commentors, over the past three years I have found myself naturally gravitating to a more target fucused technique. After decades of hard front iron sight shooting, I began experimenting with red dots while still shooting irons. Initially, as I worked to improve my speed at closer ranges, I realized I was using soft target focus. I fought to maintain a hard front sight focus, but, continued to go to a target focus out five to seven yards. It is now ingrained in my proceedure for closer targets.
I was taught as a kid, always look at the target first. Also, shooting with both eyes open is easier with a reddot, but effective for iron sights. Practice practice.
Man honestly this is exactly what has happened to me recently I put a dot on my carry gun and in the last week shot some of my iron sight guns with the same focus I would with the dot and I was shocked at the speed and efficiency I could use the irons ! Great information
It really depends on the shooting discipline you are competing in. As an experienced Bullseye shooter, for precision accuracy shooting Bullseye out to 50 yards one hand, only "Front Sight" Alignment and "Area Aim" the only way to go! The proof is 10 rounds "Slow Fire" one hand into a 5" group!
The problem is that people are only taught how to shoot the Bullseye way, even for more dynamic types of shooting. The technique isn't wrong, it's how it's taught and implemented that's the issue.
I am working on shooting at longer distances. I have Glock 9 mm’s and 10mm’s. I would like to shoot well at 50 and 100 yards. What ammo is best? Any tips?
@@kensakata5124ight alignment is one of two shooting principles. It is not a technique. Technique is a particular sight picture selected on the shooters confidence of getting consistency from it over others.
Thats encouraging, I naturally use a target focus with the irons as a soft peripheral focus and not had issues until I tried it the way other people taught hard front focus (in the process of trying to absorb all I could to learn and improve from those with years more experience than myself). Never had issues picking up a dot either, especially on platforms I do lots of dry practice with.
This is why the rear gutter sights were and in some cases still are popular. A rear gutter sight will help a shooter align the pistol to a target faster than adjustable rear sights because the sides of the gutter quickly tells the shooter if the gun is aligned left, right or centered!
It'll depend on type of shooting also, if you're training for a defensive purpose, you can assume you'll just automatically go to target focused because you need to know what's going on very intensely
I took 3 of Tim’s classes. I believe he is one of the very best. He backs up his theoretics with his own shooting ability, but more. Tim demonstrates the conventional wisdom vs his revised concepts. His ideas out compete, frankly. And it’s teachable and reachable. It applies to shooters of all three levels.
With my iron sights (no optic in this scenario), I have an immensely difficult time to get rid of the blurry focus with my eyes when trying to focus on a 3 dot iron sight. However, if I’m looking at my target down range and when I go to the iron sights to get precise I found that if I do a quick blink when I’m looking closer at the sights I am able to quickly pick up the iron sight’s dots clearly and quickly align them. But if I’m looking down range and then back At the sight it seems to take 2+ seconds to get rid of that slow re focus if you will. Does this have anything to do with astigmatism, or is this something else, and if so, what? I noticed on sights that are blacked out in the rear and a bright glow front I do better with this, but still have the same issue. Is this bizarre about the quick blink bandaid solution? Btw this is all on a pistol. Thanks for any tips.
Nice video. 👍 me personally I do a combination of front, rear, keeping both eyes open, and focus on my target. That most important thing is you GOTTA get out there and TRAIN, to further your shot placement and learning you firearm and gear.
First time shooting a g19, used this advice where I focused on the target while overlapping it with the sights. Had a tight grip and quickly squeezed the trigger. My groups were within a 3 inches by 3 inches circle, it fucking works.
Yep, he’s good. I think the best thing is to know your gun and get comfortable with it and don’t get wrapped around the axle about any one thing you heard one guy say on TH-cam. Don’t overthink it it’s what I’m saying… I think
I heard Tim say this in a podcast a couple years ago and filed it away under "that's interesting." After shooting red dots for a while I got my iron sight pistol out and sumbitch, that's more or less how it worked.
Just completed Frank Proctor (👍🏻) Pistol - “The Fundamentals of Fast”. Frank covered this with us. Rear - Front - Target seen together. Sharp front sight focus with fuzzy rear and target - BIG NO GO. My ten years of doing it wrong 🤦🏻♂️ But now I’m on the path to improving.
Finally somebody said it. I’m 19 years old and I’ve been shooting my entire life and have always naturally target focused. I worked at a gun range when I had just turned 18 and all the other ranger guys and salesman told me that I was looking at the sights wrong and that I would never be able to shoot correctly. So being the smart ass I am, I challenged them to a match and won. 3 matches in a row. And they still told me I was wrong 😂. Anyways. I can’t believe more people don’t naturally gravitate towards target focus.
Interesting. I just got my Platypus in last week and first trip to the range I really noticed I'm terrible with Irons. Never practiced them the last 2 years since getting into shooting sports. Tested in my house dry firing and I can see trying to stay target focused working better for me. Going to give it a try this weekend out on my range!! Gotta learn something new to me now while I'm waiting for the red dot I want to be released from Primary Arms. Good excuse to finally teach myself irons!!
This is what I’ve taught myself: The firearm is an extension of my body, so when I aim I’m simply looking at the target and waiting for my sights to obscure my vision. Im not overly focused on the sights just like I don’t focus on each of my individual fingers as I lift a cup. I’m barely focused on the sights at all, but once the target I was looking at gets covered by that little bit of red, I fire. And I repeat that process until the mag is empty. I was able to stack rounds from 20 yards out. I EDC a Staccato CS, have been shooting for about a month
Also kinda hard to remain aware of the behavior of the target while you're focused on something at arm's length. A savvy prosecutor may pick at that scab during a trial.
Your distance determines what sight techniques you use. Combat distance, with a handgun (usually less than five yards) You only have time, to point and shoot. Both eyes will be wide open looking at the threat. Adrenaline will kick in.
I gave up buckhorns for peep/aperture sights long ago. The peep let’s me focus on the target and ,as age creeps in, are MUCH easier to see and acquire quickly. I have red dots on some guns, but my levers get peeps and they work well, look through and put the post on the target, not much different than how a dot works.
I’m with ya. Williams peep. As my eyes have grown older, I’ve had to file and narrow my front post to form a point. Huge difference. And add a drop of Testor’s model airplane flourescent paint.
Thanks for this. I'm tossing up persisting with the buckhorn sights or going peeps on my 16" barrel lever gun. The more I read about older guys having trouble with their eyes as they get older, the more I'm leaning towards going with a peep.
I experimented a lot with sight picture when I started shooting, but an old man who trained two professional shooting teams happens to live by me. He stressed not focusing on the front sight and has greatly improved my accuracy. I wish this were more common knowledge, and that the way people were trained would change.
I had someone tell me this a long time ago. Use the notch on the rear sight first as your window on the target. If your target is not in the window. You’re not gonna hit it where you want to. I absolutely agree. Use the rear sight “window“ first then fine tune with the front sight. It’s always worked for me when I see you irons. And for me, the iron sights are almost a blur or appear as a ghost. It’s always been natural for me to target focus rather than front sight focus.
I think one of the best ways to become a good iron sight shooter with a target focus is to shoot rifle with ghost ring sights. The eye needs to learn how to have a near ghost image and what sight alignment/sight picture looks like.
I agree with Tim in general. But I’ll say as a super senior iron sight shooter it also depends a lot on your eyes and your vision in general. As you get older your vision changes and a lot depends on how it has changed. Which is why so many older guys have switched to carry optics. I love iron sights and although I’m a life long “B” shooter as long as I can I’ll stick to it. Btw…I use target focus and always recoiled at FS gospel preachers.
Agree 100%. 62 year old Retired Marine . I have recently went to Optics do to my eyes deteriorate. I have glasses and can still kill game out pass 300 yards. As to not focusing on the front sight is blasphemy to us older shooter LOL. I have learned to shoot my " optic box" for close up Pistol work. The Red Dot on my pistol just makes it easier to shoot from on the ground, on my belly or hiding behind cover. As to long range Rifle or Carbine accuracy, I disagree on the concept of not focusing on the front sight. The reason we " Call" our shots is we're recording where we saw the Front Sight when the round goes off. That helps you know it was good or bad shot from the shooter. Is a sight adjustment needed, or did I shot a bad shot, SHOT ANOTHER ONE. Because our eyes can't focus on two objects of different distances at the same time, at longer distances one gas to make a choice. Having clear Front Sight is critical at distances. I am just getting into Red Dots for longer range shooting. I primarily use my Carbines and Rifles for hunting. Not disavowing the Shooter in the video but shooting evolves and individuals like him are important to advancing the sport and techniques. I would recommend people try it, if it works perfect it by training/ practice. PS: The more important fundamental to me is that TRIGGER ( PULL OR PRESS). If that is screwed up it doesn't matter which sight a shooter focuses on. Semper Fi
I tried the front site thing about week. If you don't have the back site where it is suppose to be you shootin high,low,left, and right. Back to shooting the way I learned. Good video I was right all along.
An interesting take on the iron sights front sight blade debate. The thing is, if you go the "expert" route, there is always a more decorated "expert" that sits on the side opposite to yours. At the end of the day, maybe you should just go with what works best for you. Just an opinion.
I see this is an old post but wanted to thank you for showing the right way to get tighter groups. I never cared about pistols very much but was a rifle fan. I do the target focus first peripheral vision for sights. I go one step farther that being that I use the reflection of light on the post to bury it in the receiver till it starts to disappear and just flickers. Then the bullet heads down range. I have shot, from the bench 1 1/2 " groups at 100 yards using the method you described . I tried to tell others how I shoot but they don't get it? What really has me dumbfounded is some shooters using scoped rifles could not shoot a group that tight?
So, I have been a Master Class shooter since 1978. I have shot in many different types of the sport and maintain around a 90% win record. I have always used iron sights. I still compete and I still win more matches than I loose by a very large percentage even at my advance age. I am not disputing what you or Tim is saying but i think you are going to need to explain it to me a little better. A simple task of aligning the sights and pressing the trigger to get the shot to go where it's intended is not complicated until now. Exactly what are you guys trying to say that is different from what i just said. I don't understand how you cannot focus on the front sight, align the rear and press the trigger. What are you focusing on if not the sights and a tiny area on the target? Please explain.
What Tim is saying is that, instead of trying to focus exclusively on the front sight from the moment you draw and present (which is how it's been taught in every weapons class I've ever taken, by all sorts of instructors that have had civilian, LE, and military experience,) to use both the target and the rear sights of the pistol to get a broad sight alignment, AND THEN use the front sight to fine-tune the sight picture to get rounds on target, which is closer to the red dot technique of focusing on the target, and superimposing the red dot on the target you're focusing on. The issue he brings up is more based on training than anything else, which is not an issue someone with even a fraction of your experience will have, because you've already beaten that bad habit out of your system thanks to actually competing, if you ever had it at all in the first place. I hope that clears up what he was trying to say.
Let’s see ur competition videos. Not hating just curious. They’re not saying not to align the sights and shoot. They’re just debating which posts to focus more on.
After a few decades of shooting irons and loudly resisting red dots, I an getting my 1st red dot set up this weak. Very curious about how well I am going to adjust to it. I dry fire a lot and intend to use dry fire to learn any needed modifications to my presentation to find and maintain the dot. This video has given me new perspective on to the sighting process that I hope will help. Thanks to you both.
It'll take some time to adjust but the it'll help. There'll be a phase where you want your old results back right now. Keep going developing that new skill, absorb all the dot shooting videos. Turn the brightness down so that you barely see the dot. What do you get?
@@onpsxmember Thanks for the input. Glad to know about lowering the brightness. I ordered the new Bushnell rxs 100 because of positive reviews, good user feedback, the price,, and the fact that I am still not 100% convinced that I won't go back to irons. Because of your comments, I will stick with it long enough to learn how to use it correctly, then decide if dots are the future for me.
Being kinda backwards and making 95% of my shooting career as a dot shooter and recently switching to irons…. I can see what he’s saying… like the dot… my sights just appear on the target because I picked up target focus from the dot and it hasn’t been difficult to be decent at it as a a result. Good Stuff
I do not comprehend this at all. This conversation is a non-starter for me for a number of reasons. First, I'm not certain why it's so difficult to look at the front sight and get it on targets reliably and accurately. I do not find it difficult, nor do I experience that issue at all. I've also tried most of this myself. Early on as a new USPSA competitor, I was determined that I could and would learn to do it 'my way'. I had the muscle memory so tight that I drew and had perfect sight alignment immediately, tried soft target focus, tried the rear sight as it is so big and so close, etc., and continued to pattern instead of grouping until I switched focus to the front sight. There may be merit to this, but if so, it's at best usable for quick, loose accuracy at applicable ranges and worst case, it's useful only to folks such as Mr. Herron, who can afford to and have put tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange, while developing specialized techniques that work for them. Interesting video, and I thank you for it!
I'm not criticizing these gentlemen or this video. But, there are a plethora of handgun experts on youtube who profess to know it all. Engaging an armed opponent is a challenging task. Hollywood movies make it look surprisingly easy. Paper targets take all the adrenaline and hyperactivity (stress) out of the reason most of us go armed; kill or disable a human being. I'm an old Vietnam-Era retired Army Airborne Infantryman (E8) who qualified Expert with a 1911A1 every time I had to. But, like I said when the paper target isn't trying to kill you, it is easy to slow down emotionally. I quickly learned to get control of my mind and emotions when facing a threat. Also, too many folks think 40 to 80 yard shots have a place with a pistol. If you're that far away in a civilian encounter you need to duck and cover - not try to exchange shots with a perp.
My eyes won't let me front sight focus; no matter what I do it stays blurry but the target is clear. I just use my peripherals to line the sights up, or use one eye to aim at distance. With optics it's a very natural and easy transition 🙂
Depends on the weapon being used. A shotgun, even when slugging, is rapid and target. A rifle is always front post at distance. 1/3 cowitnessing a T2 on an AR, I find is the dot literally sitting on the tip of the post. It's pretty cool. And accurate.
The front sight won’t kill you. The “threat” will. Jeff Coopers advice predates red dots, and he died in 2006. Much respect for his work, but it’s outdated by a decade and half. And dead people can’t bless anyone.
@@zsacrilege the video was about the use of iron sights. Red dots may have their own doctrine but we are talking here about established doctrine concerning iron sights.
I’ve tried target focus out to ten yards with a blurry front sight and it didn’t make any difference in accuracy. I don’t shoot bows, but it is my understanding that archers use a target focus even when using a sight. It seems like if your junk is aligned and on target it doesn’t really matter what you’re focusing on.
I did notice that point shooting is actually getting a bit respectable these days at really close ranges fast.. or fast for me... I pretty much don't pay attention to the sights. I mean I do but no way do I try to focus on the front sight and the rear sight is just.. well there... for sure it is more in focus without trying to focus on it. Both sights are a blob to me with my eyes but the rear sight is just sharper by default. One thing tho... when I teach new shooters with handguns.... handguns are a steep learning curve and its not much fun if you miss all the time. I tell em to pretty much forget all that stuff. put some full sodas out about 10' or so.. forget stance... forget lining up the sights... forget grip or trigger pull. put the front sight on the can. They have plenty of time to do that. and.... when a full soda explodes? confidence goes up. When I do it at 25 yards they naturally want to do that. At that point we can 'refine' what they are doing. maybe we will move back to 10 yards... With just a little refining of their sight picture they are making some hits. I could be wrong but it sure seem that they learn faster... hell... they become downright competitive.
I was always of the school of thought that front and rear sights were installed on a gun to be used together for aiming. Also they were installed on top of the gun not on the side of the gun. So I've always used both sights and held the gun upright.
Though I may be bending the concept a bit I think the words "co-witnessing" is applicable. Overly focusing on either the front sight, rear sight, or the target individually is counter productive. Being able to see all three in conjunction with each other, i.e. "co-witnessing" those three reference points works best.
I don't have a ton of shooting experience, but I have found that I am way more accurate with the fiber optic front sight on my CZ Shadow 2 than the 3 dot sights on my Beretta 92fs. I know that the Shadow 2 is in a different league than the 92fs, and the trigger pull and other factors are far superior, and my sights might just be off on my Beretta, but is that the general consensus, that fiber optic front sight is easier to use? I use a Vortex Spitfire prism optic on my AR. I've been thinking about trying a pistol with a red dot lately, and doing carry optics division. They have a Canik TP9SFX Viper, with the Vortex Viper red dot, for just $636 cash at a store near me. I just bought the Shadow 2, so I'm not planning on buying another one soon, but I think that's the one I would get. Sorry for the long comment.
If you wear glasses and are near sighted you can peak over your glasses and see a clear set of irons or look through your glasses and see blurry irons and a clear target. Not sure what is meant by soft target. Is he talking about blurry sights with a strong sight of the target or visa versa. Should you lock into the iron sights first and then transition to target focus. If someone that is nearsighted could explain that would be great. Perhaps I need to look at bifocals. That is why I love red dots.
We ve been taught to focus on the front sight, Almost Exclusively, the rear must also be considered, especially at distance, Also at distance,if we are engaged the ranging must change.
This applies to sling shots as well, not that any of you care lol. I was using a slingshot in a apartment for the past few years until I just recently bought an acreage. Took me a while to realize that I needed to just "be one with my target" and then I nail them. If I am trying to "aim" I will get very close. But once i started only looking at the target and then taking the shot I was and am able to hit a fly out of the air. Once you get farther it is quite different bc you have to account for wind and drop and all of that. But you could put a dot anywhere in my apartment and I would smack it. Now I have to go try this with firearms! Never heard someone say this before, but I have noticed that when I do almost like a "quick scope" like one would do in a video game, I actually ended up hitting my target more frequently
I'm not super experienced with pistols, but I feel like when I'm trying to be super accurate, and hit the exact same spot every time, I'm more front sight focused, but I take my time and shift to the target and back. If I'm trying to be fast, I'm more target focused, which is probably more of a real world scenario, but i have more stray rounds. Not by any real significant amount, but instead of tearing a 3 inch hole in the center of the target, there are bullet holes scattered in more of a 9 inch circle.
I shoot open sites as far as 1 mile as close as 15yds. At distance through a peep site you have to find the target first and not allow the front site to block the target. The front sight is never fully in focus. Today I was shooting my SKS at 800 meters with the combat sights I first find the target (Todays Target is 18 inches wide 24 inches tall.) then bring the gun up and allow its natural aim to level the sights on the target yet again nothing is totally in focus but I keep the target more focused than either site. At short distances 15-35 yards its all about the front sight. With my 454 casull or 357 wheel guns as soon as the front sight is on the next target I let the round go. Especially with the magnums if I keep focus on the front sight during recoil its easy to get the natural aim on the next target. One thing I dont hear a lot is talking about the natural aim. My father taught me how to point shoot. And that helped learn how to get a natural aim. Basally everything naturally lines up the 2 sites and the target. I like what he had to say and gives me some food for thought. TY NDR
Like it. Don’t compete, don’t shoot red dots but I am curious. Taught myself how to shoot before TH-cam without reading anything about it. Do pretty good. Good video. thanks
Something to consider: It looks bad when you have a guest on your show providing insight and you are busy playing with your headphone cord. His information was very helpful though!
I don't have red dots on any of my pistols. Shot like that for years without issues. I tend to focus more on my target then my sights though.. If I can keep under fist size at 20ft I'm good with that.
Not just Mark, but some no-name eurotrash shooter Eric Grauffel said he shoots target focus with irons out to about 15 yards or so. BTW, it looks like Mark is shooting up at Prescott there in the action vid!!
I find myself target focused (a specific spot on the target) if I'm under 7 yards to the target and especially when shooting without thinking it out. If I'm conscious of it, I will be front sight focused at those distances but that's unnatural for me and I usually revert to target focused when on autopilot. After 7 yards I find myself automatically and naturally/unconsciously switching to front sight focused. I almost ignore the rear sights in both cases. The three dots have always been very distracting for me and slow me up so now I just black out the dots on the rear sight so that they can disappear and not interfere with my target or front sight focus. That's just me.
That there is more than one sight picture approach shouldn't be a surprise to an experienced competition shooter. The front sight focus maybe makes some sense for very new handgun shooters but it's not hard to figure out that you can hit the A zone with no sights at all out to maybe fifteen yards.
My dad was trying to teach me to shoot guns, and he said to always hold the front sight at the bottom of the target. So I asked him, "If you're trying to shoot an elephant, you should aim at his toenails?"
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Somtimes it's presentation
What most Instructors don’t mention is that in a true combat situation where your life is in danger YOUR BRAIN WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO TAKE YOUR FOCUS OFF THE THREAT. front sight focus works well for target purists. But combat shooting you will have to focus on the threat so that’s how you need to practice.
Very good point, one wouldn't even no this unless he has experience with a threat. Great advice thanks.
Never thought about this. Good thinking tbh
Is it also true that when the adrenaline rush hits, keeping one eye closed is impossible?
Bingo
i always think 'your hitting a baseball, why would you look at your bat?'
I have been a slave to the “front sight focus” dogma from my first training class years ago and after watching this interview went to the range to try and be aware of the sights in general(both front and rear)as well as the target as an altogether sight picture. Groups became more consistent and I was able to be a little more relaxed in acquiring a sight picture using both sights plus target as a package. Always stressed a bit when constantly trying to pick up and focus on a tiny dot. Thanks for the insights from a couple of pros!
Its quite intresting that when shooting clays (shotguns), the focus is always the target (ie, the clay). And if you start to aim the shotgun, you will miss more then you hit. And thats with the basic shotgun sights - just a front sight and no rear sight.
clay shooting needs a well fitting shotgun to perform good, but focus is always the clay and the shotgun should just be there.
whereas pistol shooting is teached "front sight", but my right eye has a refractive error so in certain lighting conditions the sights gets really hard to focus on. So will try and train this, as it would relax my eyes more.
Really insightfull video..
The only thing I've ever been able to do consistently while focusing on my front sight is suck. By focusing on where I want the bullet to go in the target and bringing my sights into line with it, my groups are consistently better.
Sorry, but I am 68 and I only use iron sights----and have generally (at ranges of 3-25 yards) focused on the targets and had the iron sights slightly blurry. It has thus far served me well.
Yes, thats what I'm trying to say, but I usually can focus on the front sight & the target back & forth.
Having shot target archery for many years, I was taught to focus on the spot I wanted to hit and let the pin float. When I started shooting pistols years later I just automatically did the same thing with iron sights.
Then having pistol instructors tell me to focus on the front sight, I tried, but just never could get the knack for it. I still focus on the spot I want to hit.
It's nice hearing that I was doing it right the whole time. 😁
Great video! Thank you! I started shooting when I was 8 years old, taught by my father. Over 30 years ago I was a pistol instructor for a while. Other than a mandated concealed carry class when I moved to another state I haven't taken any formal training in 30 years, but I do practice. Over the years I have taught a number of people to shoot, especially women, just as a friendly thing to do. Poking around on the internet now I find so much discussion on these matters. The way I learned, the primary focus is always the target and if it isn't you shouldn't even have a finger on the trigger let alone fire the weapon. Whether iron sight, scopes, red dots, pistols, rifles, shotguns, the principle is the same. When I was 8, after putting rounds on paper with a Marlin .22 lever gun, my dad taped the sights over and tossed clay pigeons. I had to learn to shoot those, and I did, with no sights. Over the years I "modernized" my grip and stance, but never lost the focus on the target. It just seems so obvious to me. I was at a commercial range a couple years ago and had a conversation with the young man behind the counter. He criticized me for not taking classes, he was an instructor and assured me things had changed and I had developed bad habits over the years. He hadn't even seen me shoot yet. He was pretty proud of himself, almost arrogant, open carrying a full size duty weapon at work. Then he saw me shoot. Do I have bad habits? Absolutely, but they have more to do with my wife than my shooting. LOL!
Agree always focus on the target and bring the gun up and the sights will be in focus on the target. sorta like shooting clays. follow the bird and bring the gun up to the bird and the sight on the gun will automatically focus on the bird.
@@kennylavay8492 mist be why the original way of shooting a pistol in the military was one handed like the barrel was your index finger and you were pointing
Because the instructors came from a match target shooting background, they taught a style not appropriate for high stress and dynamic gun fights. Shooting 24 MOA under stress with a pistol is more than combat effective but may be easier with two hands and target focus.
Man, I was at the range today, for the second time, wondering why I couldn't make it on paper. I started looking at the target, and it finally came together. Thank you.
As a past US Olympic Rifle Team candidate and ex-military there is a diffence in application to specialities.
Pistols and eifles.
His explanations are pretty spot on though.
He gives good advice.
There's a huge difference between ten ring target shooting (front sight focus ) and combat or action shooting (target and rear sight acquisition focus). Practice, practice, practice for muscle memory and instinctive aiming.
@@the1knifepro169 Simo Häyhä used iron sights, and he used the aim that worked for him.
I was shooting the Swedish K when I did my military service and it had iron sights.
Whoever argued combat rear sight focus is wrong. 😅
No there isnt
I would think I someone shot 2 train car loads of ammo, you wouldn't even need sights to get a hit.
I am an older shooter (not competition). Sorry for the long post... I originally learned what is discussed here. At some point (perhaps 10 or so years ago) with a seeming flood of "fierce front sight focus" leaning trends, I focused on learning that method. My aim skills decreased for a while and then ...well,. even after dialing it in, it just never was a fit for me. Not that you do not have to learn/understand about competent/proper sights focus and reacquisition technique, which includes strong front sight awareness, but... Returning to method of greater "target focus" with peripheral sights focus (say 30% or so), I am a more accurate and relaxed shooter (once again). I also feel more apt in environmental and situational awareness and moving, and pointing under pressure.
I appreciate the video.
There's a few other experts out there (Leatham, Hristov and many others) that discuss very well aspects of either point~shoot and/or other alternative interpretations of "front sight focus methods" that I found helpful (for breaking out of 'fierce front sight focus methods' dilemma /what caused some confusion for me personally [especially the fuzzy target result /thing]).
I'm no expert so I have a little trepidation commenting. Many whom I admire (as experts) advocate hard 'front sight focus'. I am just one of those, perhaps due to decades of alternate old-school training, it just did not land for.
I "do" (have always) conduct strong focus on the front sight, I simply take "focus" not to mean fixating or "looking directly at". I "look" at the smallest spot possible on what I am aiming at, whether shooting right out of the draw OR with/when gunsights at eye-level.
If you are someone reading this, I hope it is helpful.
I got trifocal glasses so I could finally focus on the front sight. Then realized I was faster and more consistent with target focus and soft focused sight picture. Target focus works best for shotguns too.
There is a video of Tim Herron drawing, shooting one round and splitting a playing card in half in 1.3 sec. I have seen him on a lot of podcasts, but I was unaware of his skill level.
Some people scoff at trick shooting, but that's a hard shot to make.
Gloyper
Discovered target focused iron sight shooting basically on my own a year or two ago -- primarily because I began to experiment with red dots, and I started to really develop an interest in IDPA where the inefficiencies of front sight focused shooting became painfully apparent. Hearing high level shooters validate this technique is pretty fulfilling. From the very beginning as a new shooter, and as recently as 5 or 6 years ago, the mantra of every instructor I had was "front sight, front sight, front sight". This might be acceptable for slow fire bullseye/accuracy shooting, but for modern shooting sports and defensive type shooting, it's a handicap, yet I still see it being taught as dogma.
100% agree. For anything besides getting a perfectly accurate shot in a controlled environment, it's a handicap.
I Actually did exactly what he said when I went back to the irons after working with a dot for a while. The target focus approach has me shooting faster and better at close to medium range.
Like Tim and several of the commentors, over the past three years I have found myself naturally gravitating to a more target fucused technique. After decades of hard front iron sight shooting, I began experimenting with red dots while still shooting irons. Initially, as I worked to improve my speed at closer ranges, I realized I was using soft target focus. I fought to maintain a hard front sight focus, but, continued to go to a target focus out five to seven yards. It is now ingrained in my proceedure for closer targets.
I was taught as a kid, always look at the target first. Also, shooting with both eyes open is easier with a reddot, but effective for iron sights. Practice practice.
Man honestly this is exactly what has happened to me recently I put a dot on my carry gun and in the last week shot some of my iron sight guns with the same focus I would with the dot and I was shocked at the speed and efficiency I could use the irons ! Great information
@TheMemphis5 Edit your brain it's not a college paper it's a comment on the internet
@TheMemphis5🤣 Lmao bruh
It really depends on the shooting discipline you are competing in. As an experienced Bullseye shooter, for precision accuracy shooting Bullseye out to 50 yards one hand, only "Front Sight" Alignment and "Area Aim" the only way to go! The proof is 10 rounds "Slow Fire" one hand into a 5" group!
The problem is that people are only taught how to shoot the Bullseye way, even for more dynamic types of shooting. The technique isn't wrong, it's how it's taught and implemented that's the issue.
@@aggrodkreg4321 bottomline is try all styles and pick whatever works for you best
@@jamesortega8681 Bottom line is use the techniques that work best for the type of shooting you want to accomplish.
I am working on shooting at longer distances. I have Glock 9 mm’s and 10mm’s. I would like to shoot well at 50 and 100 yards. What ammo is best? Any tips?
@@kensakata5124ight alignment is one of two shooting principles. It is not a technique. Technique is a particular sight picture selected on the shooters confidence of getting consistency from it over others.
Thats encouraging, I naturally use a target focus with the irons as a soft peripheral focus and not had issues until I tried it the way other people taught hard front focus (in the process of trying to absorb all I could to learn and improve from those with years more experience than myself). Never had issues picking up a dot either, especially on platforms I do lots of dry practice with.
Different sight focus, among other things you have covered, is explicated in the classic Brian Enos book "Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals"
Totally noticed the same thing from shooting red dot and switching back to irons - the world is coming together!
This is why the rear gutter sights were and in some cases still are popular. A rear gutter sight will help a shooter align the pistol to a target faster than adjustable rear sights because the sides of the gutter quickly tells the shooter if the gun is aligned left, right or centered!
Well put.
It'll depend on type of shooting also, if you're training for a defensive purpose, you can assume you'll just automatically go to target focused because you need to know what's going on very intensely
I took 3 of Tim’s classes. I believe he is one of the very best. He backs up his theoretics with his own shooting ability, but more. Tim demonstrates the conventional wisdom vs his revised concepts. His ideas out compete, frankly. And it’s teachable and reachable. It applies to shooters of all three levels.
My mind has shifted, will try it out! Thank you for this eye opener advice.
you bring so much value to the table. I get answers when I need them😀
With my iron sights (no optic in this scenario), I have an immensely difficult time to get rid of the blurry focus with my eyes when trying to focus on a 3 dot iron sight. However, if I’m looking at my target down range and when I go to the iron sights to get precise I found that if I do a quick blink when I’m looking closer at the sights I am able to quickly pick up the iron sight’s dots clearly and quickly align them. But if I’m looking down range and then back At the sight it seems to take 2+ seconds to get rid of that slow re focus if you will. Does this have anything to do with astigmatism, or is this something else, and if so, what? I noticed on sights that are blacked out in the rear and a bright glow front I do better with this, but still have the same issue. Is this bizarre about the quick blink bandaid solution? Btw this is all on a pistol. Thanks for any tips.
Nice video. 👍 me personally I do a combination of front, rear, keeping both eyes open, and focus on my target. That most important thing is you GOTTA get out there and TRAIN, to further your shot placement and learning you firearm and gear.
First time shooting a g19, used this advice where I focused on the target while overlapping it with the sights. Had a tight grip and quickly squeezed the trigger. My groups were within a 3 inches by 3 inches circle, it fucking works.
Videos like this help me out so much. I've improved my shooting with your channel more than any other. Thanks for the effort!
Yep, he’s good. I think the best thing is to know your gun and get comfortable with it and don’t get wrapped around the axle about any one thing you heard one guy say on TH-cam. Don’t overthink it it’s what I’m saying… I think
I heard Tim say this in a podcast a couple years ago and filed it away under "that's interesting." After shooting red dots for a while I got my iron sight pistol out and sumbitch, that's more or less how it worked.
Very well put Tim. Thank you and great question I wish more instructors would be challenged on. Just another example why Herron is a real one.
Just completed Frank Proctor (👍🏻) Pistol - “The Fundamentals of Fast”.
Frank covered this with us.
Rear - Front - Target seen together.
Sharp front sight focus with fuzzy rear and target - BIG NO GO.
My ten years of doing it wrong 🤦🏻♂️
But now I’m on the path to improving.
Finally somebody said it. I’m 19 years old and I’ve been shooting my entire life and have always naturally target focused. I worked at a gun range when I had just turned 18 and all the other ranger guys and salesman told me that I was looking at the sights wrong and that I would never be able to shoot correctly. So being the smart ass I am, I challenged them to a match and won. 3 matches in a row. And they still told me I was wrong 😂. Anyways. I can’t believe more people don’t naturally gravitate towards target focus.
Good shooting! (But, I imagine you didn't shoot much in the first 3 years of your "entire life".)
Interesting. I just got my Platypus in last week and first trip to the range I really noticed I'm terrible with Irons. Never practiced them the last 2 years since getting into shooting sports. Tested in my house dry firing and I can see trying to stay target focused working better for me. Going to give it a try this weekend out on my range!! Gotta learn something new to me now while I'm waiting for the red dot I want to be released from Primary Arms. Good excuse to finally teach myself irons!!
I'm glad you put into words of what I've been experiencing with irons after training heavily using a red dot.
I love how they show Tim's truck to qualify his authority.
I listened to the podcast yesterday. But it's nice to have small clips to refer to
this is very interesting and makes total sense.......ive been on the job for 21 years. i cant wait to go to the range
This is what I’ve taught myself:
The firearm is an extension of my body, so when I aim I’m simply looking at the target and waiting for my sights to obscure my vision. Im not overly focused on the sights just like I don’t focus on each of my individual fingers as I lift a cup. I’m barely focused on the sights at all, but once the target I was looking at gets covered by that little bit of red, I fire. And I repeat that process until the mag is empty.
I was able to stack rounds from 20 yards out. I EDC a Staccato CS, have been shooting for about a month
Also kinda hard to remain aware of the behavior of the target while you're focused on something at arm's length. A savvy prosecutor may pick at that scab during a trial.
It's been tried in the 9th Circuit.
Your distance determines what sight techniques you use. Combat distance, with a handgun (usually less than five yards) You only have time, to point and shoot. Both eyes will be wide open looking at the threat. Adrenaline will kick in.
I gave up buckhorns for peep/aperture sights long ago. The peep let’s me focus on the target and ,as age creeps in, are MUCH easier to see and acquire quickly.
I have red dots on some guns, but my levers get peeps and they work well, look through and put the post on the target, not much different than how a dot works.
I’m with ya. Williams peep. As my eyes have grown older, I’ve had to file and narrow my front post to form a point. Huge difference. And add a drop of Testor’s model airplane flourescent paint.
Thanks for this. I'm tossing up persisting with the buckhorn sights or going peeps on my 16" barrel lever gun. The more I read about older guys having trouble with their eyes as they get older, the more I'm leaning towards going with a peep.
I experimented a lot with sight picture when I started shooting, but an old man who trained two professional shooting teams happens to live by me. He stressed not focusing on the front sight and has greatly improved my accuracy. I wish this were more common knowledge, and that the way people were trained would change.
Big Dad Thanks !great video!Iam one of those old school clear front sights guy! Looking forward to putting this to work.
My 73 year old eyes won’t “hard front sight focus” even if I wanted them to.😂
Have fun with it at the range & bet dollars to donuts you’d do fine if you were using your gun for serious business. Take care
Me too. 🤣
I had someone tell me this a long time ago. Use the notch on the rear sight first as your window on the target. If your target is not in the window. You’re not gonna hit it where you want to. I absolutely agree. Use the rear sight “window“ first then fine tune with the front sight. It’s always worked for me when I see you irons. And for me, the iron sights are almost a blur or appear as a ghost. It’s always been natural for me to target focus rather than front sight focus.
I think one of the best ways to become a good iron sight shooter with a target focus is to shoot rifle with ghost ring sights. The eye needs to learn how to have a near ghost image and what sight alignment/sight picture looks like.
I agree with Tim in general. But I’ll say as a super senior iron sight shooter it also depends a lot on your eyes and your vision in general. As you get older your vision changes and a lot depends on how it has changed. Which is why so many older guys have switched to carry optics. I love iron sights and although I’m a life long “B” shooter as long as I can I’ll stick to it. Btw…I use target focus and always recoiled at FS gospel preachers.
Funny you say this... at 57 I can no longer focus on the front sight without readers...lol. focus on the target and balance the fuzz
Agree 100%. 62 year old Retired Marine . I have recently went to Optics do to my eyes deteriorate. I have glasses and can still kill game out pass 300 yards.
As to not focusing on the front sight is blasphemy to us older shooter LOL. I have learned to shoot my " optic box" for close up Pistol work. The Red Dot on my pistol just makes it easier to shoot from on the ground, on my belly or hiding behind cover.
As to long range Rifle or Carbine accuracy, I disagree on the concept of not focusing on the front sight. The reason we " Call" our shots is we're recording where we saw the Front Sight when the round goes off. That helps you know it was good or bad shot from the shooter. Is a sight adjustment needed, or did I shot a bad shot, SHOT ANOTHER ONE.
Because our eyes can't focus on two objects of different distances at the same time, at longer distances one gas to make a choice. Having clear Front Sight is critical at distances.
I am just getting into Red Dots for longer range shooting. I primarily use my Carbines and Rifles for hunting.
Not disavowing the Shooter in the video but shooting evolves and individuals like him are important to advancing the sport and techniques. I would recommend people try it, if it works perfect it by training/ practice.
PS: The more important fundamental to me is that TRIGGER ( PULL OR PRESS). If that is screwed up it doesn't matter which sight a shooter focuses on.
Semper Fi
I tried the front site thing about week. If you don't have the back site where it is suppose to be you shootin high,low,left, and right. Back to shooting the way I learned. Good video I was right all along.
An interesting take on the iron sights front sight blade debate.
The thing is, if you go the "expert" route, there is always a more
decorated "expert" that sits on the side opposite to yours.
At the end of the day, maybe you should just go with what works
best for you. Just an opinion.
I see this is an old post but wanted to thank you for showing the right way to get tighter groups. I never cared about pistols very much but was a rifle fan. I do the target focus first peripheral vision for sights. I go one step farther that being that I use the reflection of light on the post to bury it in the receiver till it starts to disappear and just flickers. Then the bullet heads down range. I have shot, from the bench 1 1/2 " groups at 100 yards using the method you described . I tried to tell others how I shoot but they don't get it? What really has me dumbfounded is some shooters using scoped rifles could not shoot a group that tight?
Tim is the man. Great instructor.
A question? Why is front site shooting wrong? In a defensive situation it’s going to be point shooting- so practice all you can to get muscle memory
So, I have been a Master Class shooter since 1978. I have shot in many different types of the sport and maintain around a 90% win record. I have always used iron sights. I still compete and I still win more matches than I loose by a very large percentage even at my advance age. I am not disputing what you or Tim is saying but i think you are going to need to explain it to me a little better. A simple task of aligning the sights and pressing the trigger to get the shot to go where it's intended is not complicated until now. Exactly what are you guys trying to say that is different from what i just said. I don't understand how you cannot focus on the front sight, align the rear and press the trigger. What are you focusing on if not the sights and a tiny area on the target? Please explain.
Good points!💯✌🏻
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👍🏻
What Tim is saying is that, instead of trying to focus exclusively on the front sight from the moment you draw and present (which is how it's been taught in every weapons class I've ever taken, by all sorts of instructors that have had civilian, LE, and military experience,) to use both the target and the rear sights of the pistol to get a broad sight alignment, AND THEN use the front sight to fine-tune the sight picture to get rounds on target, which is closer to the red dot technique of focusing on the target, and superimposing the red dot on the target you're focusing on.
The issue he brings up is more based on training than anything else, which is not an issue someone with even a fraction of your experience will have, because you've already beaten that bad habit out of your system thanks to actually competing, if you ever had it at all in the first place. I hope that clears up what he was trying to say.
@@aggrodkreg4321 well said my dude!💯✌🏻
Let’s see ur competition videos. Not hating just curious. They’re not saying not to align the sights and shoot. They’re just debating which posts to focus more on.
Tim initially said it depends. What does it depend on? Did I miss it?
After a few decades of shooting irons and loudly resisting red dots, I an getting my 1st red dot set up this weak. Very curious about how well I am going to adjust to it. I dry fire a lot and intend to use dry fire to learn any needed modifications to my presentation to find and maintain the dot. This video has given me new perspective on to the sighting process that I hope will help. Thanks to you both.
I have gotta proof these things better!
It'll take some time to adjust but the it'll help. There'll be a phase where you want your old results back right now. Keep going developing that new skill, absorb all the dot shooting videos. Turn the brightness down so that you barely see the dot. What do you get?
@@onpsxmember Thanks for the input. Glad to know about lowering the brightness. I ordered the new Bushnell rxs 100 because of positive reviews, good user feedback, the price,, and the fact that I am still not 100% convinced that I won't go back to irons. Because of your comments, I will stick with it long enough to learn how to use it correctly, then decide if dots are the future for me.
How did it go ? What is your conclusion on a Red Dot?
Being kinda backwards and making 95% of my shooting career as a dot shooter and recently switching to irons…. I can see what he’s saying… like the dot… my sights just appear on the target because I picked up target focus from the dot and it hasn’t been difficult to be decent at it as a a result. Good Stuff
From his 2-day class - "anchoring the rear sight"...!
Yep
I do not comprehend this at all. This conversation is a non-starter for me for a number of reasons. First, I'm not certain why it's so difficult to look at the front sight and get it on targets reliably and accurately. I do not find it difficult, nor do I experience that issue at all. I've also tried most of this myself. Early on as a new USPSA competitor, I was determined that I could and would learn to do it 'my way'. I had the muscle memory so tight that I drew and had perfect sight alignment immediately, tried soft target focus, tried the rear sight as it is so big and so close, etc., and continued to pattern instead of grouping until I switched focus to the front sight.
There may be merit to this, but if so, it's at best usable for quick, loose accuracy at applicable ranges and worst case, it's useful only to folks such as Mr. Herron, who can afford to and have put tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange, while developing specialized techniques that work for them.
Interesting video, and I thank you for it!
This actually helped allot when i picked up the red dot.
Good info. Also, “right” is the “like” of the 21st century.
Haha. We also added “kind of” as a clause anywhere we can fit it in. Do you kind of know what I mean? Can you kind of think of some other examples?
I'm not criticizing these gentlemen or this video. But, there are a plethora of handgun experts on youtube who profess to know it all. Engaging an armed opponent is a challenging task. Hollywood movies make it look surprisingly easy. Paper targets take all the adrenaline and hyperactivity (stress) out of the reason most of us go armed; kill or disable a human being. I'm an old Vietnam-Era retired Army Airborne Infantryman (E8) who qualified Expert with a 1911A1 every time I had to. But, like I said when the paper target isn't trying to kill you, it is easy to slow down emotionally. I quickly learned to get control of my mind and emotions when facing a threat. Also, too many folks think 40 to 80 yard shots have a place with a pistol. If you're that far away in a civilian encounter you need to duck and cover - not try to exchange shots with a perp.
You think you know but you don’t. The guest in this video trains LEO/MIL
My eyes won't let me front sight focus; no matter what I do it stays blurry but the target is clear. I just use my peripherals to line the sights up, or use one eye to aim at distance. With optics it's a very natural and easy transition 🙂
Depends on the weapon being used.
A shotgun, even when slugging, is rapid and target.
A rifle is always front post at distance.
1/3 cowitnessing a T2 on an AR, I find is the dot literally sitting on the tip of the post.
It's pretty cool.
And accurate.
“Blessed are those who, in the face of death, think only about the front sight.”
Jeff Cooper
The front sight won’t kill you. The “threat” will. Jeff Coopers advice predates red dots, and he died in 2006. Much respect for his work, but it’s outdated by a decade and half. And dead people can’t bless anyone.
@@zsacrilege the video was about the use of iron sights. Red dots may have their own doctrine but we are talking here about established doctrine concerning iron sights.
I’ve tried target focus out to ten yards with a blurry front sight and it didn’t make any difference in accuracy. I don’t shoot bows, but it is my understanding that archers use a target focus even when using a sight. It seems like if your junk is aligned and on target it doesn’t really matter what you’re focusing on.
I am a fan of your channel. Thank you for the content. We need to train to see what works for you as a shooter
Do what's comfortable for you and what works best for you,there is no right and wrong. As long as you hit your target you're good.
I did notice that point shooting is actually getting a bit respectable these days at really close ranges fast.. or fast for me... I pretty much don't pay attention to the sights. I mean I do but no way do I try to focus on the front sight and the rear sight is just.. well there... for sure it is more in focus without trying to focus on it. Both sights are a blob to me with my eyes but the rear sight is just sharper by default. One thing tho... when I teach new shooters with handguns.... handguns are a steep learning curve and its not much fun if you miss all the time. I tell em to pretty much forget all that stuff. put some full sodas out about 10' or so.. forget stance... forget lining up the sights... forget grip or trigger pull. put the front sight on the can. They have plenty of time to do that. and.... when a full soda explodes? confidence goes up. When I do it at 25 yards they naturally want to do that. At that point we can 'refine' what they are doing. maybe we will move back to 10 yards... With just a little refining of their sight picture they are making some hits. I could be wrong but it sure seem that they learn faster... hell... they become downright competitive.
I was always of the school of thought that front and rear sights were installed on a gun to be used together for aiming. Also they were installed on top of the gun not on the side of the gun. So I've always used both sights and held the gun upright.
Though I may be bending the concept a bit I think the words "co-witnessing" is applicable. Overly focusing on either the front sight, rear sight, or the target individually is counter productive. Being able to see all three in conjunction with each other, i.e. "co-witnessing" those three reference points works best.
I don't have a ton of shooting experience, but I have found that I am way more accurate with the fiber optic front sight on my CZ Shadow 2 than the 3 dot sights on my Beretta 92fs. I know that the Shadow 2 is in a different league than the 92fs, and the trigger pull and other factors are far superior, and my sights might just be off on my Beretta, but is that the general consensus, that fiber optic front sight is easier to use? I use a Vortex Spitfire prism optic on my AR. I've been thinking about trying a pistol with a red dot lately, and doing carry optics division. They have a Canik TP9SFX Viper, with the Vortex Viper red dot, for just $636 cash at a store near me. I just bought the Shadow 2, so I'm not planning on buying another one soon, but I think that's the one I would get. Sorry for the long comment.
Good advice! Any advice on sig sauer p365 xmacro tacops for aiming? I was hitting way low and to the right (rookie shooter) (also left handed)
So is Tim saying have a clear target and rear sight with the blurry front sight?
BEST sight video ever!!!
If you wear glasses and are near sighted you can peak over your glasses and see a clear set of irons or look through your glasses and see blurry irons and a clear target. Not sure what is meant by soft target. Is he talking about blurry sights with a strong sight of the target or visa versa. Should you lock into the iron sights first and then transition to target focus. If someone that is nearsighted could explain that would be great. Perhaps I need to look at bifocals. That is why I love red dots.
Do you shoot with both eyes open ?
And how do you feel about a peep rear like on a Mini 14 meaning would you use a large or small aperture ?
We ve been taught to focus on the front sight, Almost Exclusively, the rear must also be considered, especially at distance, Also at distance,if we are engaged the ranging must change.
Great video and fantastic advice, thank you!
This applies to sling shots as well, not that any of you care lol. I was using a slingshot in a apartment for the past few years until I just recently bought an acreage. Took me a while to realize that I needed to just "be one with my target" and then I nail them. If I am trying to "aim" I will get very close. But once i started only looking at the target and then taking the shot I was and am able to hit a fly out of the air. Once you get farther it is quite different bc you have to account for wind and drop and all of that. But you could put a dot anywhere in my apartment and I would smack it. Now I have to go try this with firearms! Never heard someone say this before, but I have noticed that when I do almost like a "quick scope" like one would do in a video game, I actually ended up hitting my target more frequently
Always something useful
Is it more instinctive shooting ?
I'm not super experienced with pistols, but I feel like when I'm trying to be super accurate, and hit the exact same spot every time, I'm more front sight focused, but I take my time and shift to the target and back. If I'm trying to be fast, I'm more target focused, which is probably more of a real world scenario, but i have more stray rounds. Not by any real significant amount, but instead of tearing a 3 inch hole in the center of the target, there are bullet holes scattered in more of a 9 inch circle.
I shoot open sites as far as 1 mile as close as 15yds. At distance through a peep site you have to find the target first and not allow the front site to block the target. The front sight is never fully in focus. Today I was shooting my SKS at 800 meters with the combat sights I first find the target (Todays Target is 18 inches wide 24 inches tall.) then bring the gun up and allow its natural aim to level the sights on the target yet again nothing is totally in focus but I keep the target more focused than either site. At short distances 15-35 yards its all about the front sight. With my 454 casull or 357 wheel guns as soon as the front sight is on the next target I let the round go. Especially with the magnums if I keep focus on the front sight during recoil its easy to get the natural aim on the next target. One thing I dont hear a lot is talking about the natural aim. My father taught me how to point shoot. And that helped learn how to get a natural aim. Basally everything naturally lines up the 2 sites and the target. I like what he had to say and gives me some food for thought. TY
NDR
Line up both sights then focus on the Opp. I've never missed!
Im farsighted do i wear my glasses so i can clearly see the sights or do i want to clearly see the target
A few pictures to illustrate would be most helpful. Possible to visually record what Mr. Herron is recommending?
Like it. Don’t compete, don’t shoot red dots but I am curious. Taught myself how to shoot before TH-cam without reading anything about it. Do pretty good. Good video. thanks
Something to consider: It looks bad when you have a guest on your show providing insight and you are busy playing with your headphone cord.
His information was very helpful though!
I don't have red dots on any of my pistols. Shot like that for years without issues. I tend to focus more on my target then my sights though.. If I can keep under fist size at 20ft I'm good with that.
Not just Mark, but some no-name eurotrash shooter Eric Grauffel said he shoots target focus with irons out to about 15 yards or so. BTW, it looks like Mark is shooting up at Prescott there in the action vid!!
Who’s Mark?
I find myself target focused (a specific spot on the target) if I'm under 7 yards to the target and especially when shooting without thinking it out. If I'm conscious of it, I will be front sight focused at those distances but that's unnatural for me and I usually revert to target focused when on autopilot. After 7 yards I find myself automatically and naturally/unconsciously switching to front sight focused. I almost ignore the rear sights in both cases. The three dots have always been very distracting for me and slow me up so now I just black out the dots on the rear sight so that they can disappear and not interfere with my target or front sight focus. That's just me.
That there is more than one sight picture approach shouldn't be a surprise to an experienced competition shooter. The front sight focus maybe makes some sense for very new handgun shooters but it's not hard to figure out that you can hit the A zone with no sights at all out to maybe fifteen yards.
People need a video on how to use iron sights
Great video!
I'm experiencing what he spoke about at 5:40. I'm learning to shoot irons more efficiently.
Been doing that pretty much from the start. Use my FO sight as an red dot pretty much.
So how do you do it as a new shooter that wants to learn the best or most efficient method
My dad was trying to teach me to shoot guns, and he said to always hold the front sight at the bottom of the target. So I asked him, "If you're trying to shoot an elephant, you should aim at his toenails?"
Depends on how the gun is sighted - old bullseye guns were sighted with a 6 o’clock hold
@@TheHumbleMarksman When my house is invaded by bullseye targets, I'll let you know.