Massad Ayoob - Red Dot Sights on Carry Guns? Pros and Cons of Carry Optics - Critical Mas EP46
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มิ.ย. 2024
- There are strengths and weaknesses to Carry Optics on handguns. Massad Ayoob gives his pros and cons to Red Dots. Are they here to stay? He answers that question, plus gives some tips to finding the dot, defoggers and more.
See Ken Hackathorn's take on Red Dots - • Ken Hackathorn analyze...
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Critical Mas(s) with Massad Ayoob is a show that provides expert analysis over a wide range of contemporaneous topics related to civilian and law enforcement self-defense, the use of force, and second amendment issues, provided by a renowned and established author with a career spanning decades in training law enforcement officers and the public at large, who is frequently called upon to provide expert witness testimony.
ABOUT MASSAD AYOOB:
Massad Ayoob has been handgun editor of GUNS magazine and law enforcement columnist for AMERICAN HANDGUNNER since the 1970s and has published thousands of articles in gun magazines, martial arts publications, and law enforcement journals. He is the author of some twenty books on firearms, self-defense, and related topics, including “In the Gravest Extreme” and “Deadly Force,” widely considered to be authoritative texts on the topic of the use of lethal force.
The winner of the Outstanding American Handgunner of the Year Award in 1998, Mas has won several states and regional handgun shooting championships. Ayoob was the first person to earn the title of Five Gun Master in the International Defensive Pistol Association. He is the current President of the Second Amendment Foundation. He served 19 years as chair of the Firearms Committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, and several years as a member of the Advisory Board of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association. In addition to teaching for those groups, he has also taught
for the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors and the International Homicide Investigators seminars.
Mas has received judicial recognition as an expert witness for the courts in weapons and shooting cases since 1979, and served as a fully sworn and empowered, part-time police officer for 43 years, mostly at supervisor rank. Ayoob founded the Lethal Force Institute in 1981 and served as its director until 2009, and now trains through Massad Ayoob Group. He has
appeared on CLE-TV delivering continuing legal education for attorneys, through the American Law Institute and American Bar Association, and has been retained to train attorneys to handle deadly force cases through the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Ayoob served for two
years as co-vice chair of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He also appeared in each episode of Personal Defense TV (Sportsman’s Channel).
0:00 - Red Dot Opinion
1:30 - Carry Optics
3:00 - The Advantages
4:00 - The Learning Curve
5:15 - Techniques to Find the Dot
8:25 - Personal Experiences
9:55 - They are here to stay
#MassadAyoob #WilsonCombat #CriticalMas - กีฬา
What is your opinion? Should a carry gun have a red dot?
For me yes but be prepared if you seriously EDC all day to go through batteries like no one's business.
*KIS principle*
For defensive use I would say they are more trouble than they are worth, as are white lights and lasers, as they violate the KIS principle. If you are using Jim Cirillo's coarse-aim shooting technique (point shooting) the sights are just a training aid and will not be used in a close range defensive encounter when you are focused on the target, not trying to find the irons or a red dot (which could be out of alignment, broken, have a flat battery, or have a window that is cracked or covered in dirt, mud, wet sand, dust, water or condensation that also stops you using your irons). I find that once I have shot a pistol enough using the sights only slows me down, so why slow down and try to find the sights that could be non-functional when I have a split second to save a life? A handgun is not a rifle so should not be treated as such.
I see no downside, and numerous upsides, assuming one puts the time in and trains accordingly. Too many people try to use a dot once or twice at the range, struggle with it, and then consider themselves some sort of authority on how dots are for the range but in the real world, iron sights are better." No, you just haven't put the time in to learn a new (and in many ways superior) sighting system.
@@bsmithhammer They make the gun bigger, they make the gun more fragile, they have glass that can shatter, they have chinese circuit boards that can fritz out, they need to be checked to make sure the batteries aren't dead, the sighting point gets lost during recoil. Those are a bunch of downsides just off the top of my head.
@@66smithra Have you personally experienced a modern, quality optic failing on you? Have you experienced a dead battery, and if so, how regularly do you swap them out? Curious to hear if these are personal experiences you've had, or are you just repeating common speculative arguments.
"The sighting point gets lost during recoil?!?" Ok, that's truly ridiculous. That is no more true than it is with a front iron sight, unless you are inexperienced.
Mr. Ayoob, I am Andy Cannon's eldest daughter, Kat Cannon Hobza. I remember all the articles you wrote about Dad's work, I have several of them framed :) It's so nice to hear Dad's name mentioned still in the gun world -- if I have one regret in life, it is that I never had Dad teach me how to pistol-smith! (He did teach me how to shoot competitively, however!!) My sisters and I miss Dad a lot, and it's nice that his skill and legacy are remembered!
Hi Kat. I never met your dad, but read about him many times in Mas's articles, and regret I never had a chance to have him work on my guns. Really cool to see your post here, as I am a father of daughters myself.
@@59gaperry Thank you for your comment! Dad has been gone for 17 years now, it's so nice to know how his name and work lives on!!
Kat, I was too young and too broke to afford any custom guns but I would have given my eye teeth for one of your dad's guns! He is definitely remembered. Thanks for sharing your content.
Wait, you have a double barrel surname instead of forcing your husband to take the surname Cannon? Who wouldn't want their surname to be Cannon?
My grandfather had a custom S&W from your father and now I own it. It is still a tack driver and it holds very fond memories for me, as it was the first pistol I ever shot. The fact that it was with my grandpa is just icing!
My father is an older man in his 70's, and a red dot sight really helps him out while aiming his pistol. As a younger whipper snapper myself, I prefer the old iron sights.
Nash Bridges, Don Johnson used a rear optic on his pistol in the recent USA tv movie. He ran around SF with it. 😎
Follow n pops foot steps! Red dots for the W!
irons are not naturel for human combat. we fight threat focus.. irons fight that instinct to look at the target, RDS lets you do that while you just move the dot into the line of sight...
What are you gunna do in low light/darkness?
@@omardevonlittle3817 flashlight
After shooting iron sight for over 40 years, 30 of those years with both iron sights on my duty pistol and later my duty AR15, I finally had to go to a red dot (green in my case) optics on both because of my diminished eye sight. WHAT A GAME CHANGER!! Definitely a learning curve for us old dogs, but well worth the time and effort. Thank you for the video Sir!!
That's what I've heard from others, as your eyesight goes dots help out. I'm used to irons on M1 down to my Taurus "church gun". Only my A-bolt w/BOSS is the only thing I run optics on. 😂 The only one I'd take a shot on 4" steel at 1000y. The rest mostly come down to muscle memory at the ranges I'd be using them, I shoot with both eyes open till about 25y on pistols and 50-100y on rifles. Since I'm catching up to you, I may have a new learning curve coming 😢🤣
As another “old guy” with decades under his belt of duty and service irons and now with old eyes, I found the learning curve to be almost zero!
I found that by simply presenting exactly the same as I’ve done a million times, bingo! There she is.
Game changer for sure!
@Daddy53751 yeah, there's really no learning curve at all for most
25 year LEO & Firearms Instructor, I remain intrigued by RDS but not convinced… you fellas push me a little closer to being convinced… lol
@@sgtjrr9771 when you finally “pull the trigger” and get one, you’ll wonder why you waited so long.😂(I did)
On my next one, I will say I’ll get a closed emitter. For no other reason than they are offering them at livable prices nowadays.
Different strokes for different folks as we used to say. I love red dots on rifles, but I’m not there yet on handguns. Mas is awesome and truly a 2A treasure. Thank you for having him on this channel.
Yep, and I found some of the reasons given in the comments section ridiculous. If I'm in a shooting situation at my house or out on the town, I'm not planning on going out into a forest or urban area at night (or in the daytime) to hunt somebody down. That's no longer self-defense, that's going on offense. The legal risk is way too high.
I’m almost 52. I won a gun raffle back in December and I decided to get a couple of pistols with a red dot and suppressor iron sights. After acclimating myself to the new system I must say I absolutely love them. Yes I still draw the same way and I look for the front sight. I have found that if you set the brightness of the red dot to the appropriate amount of ambient lighting, brighter in the daytime, the red dot will pop into your vision before your iron sight is fully on target. Also to keep the lenses from fogging I just rub plain unscented barbersol shaving cream on the lenses then buff off with a camera cloth. The shave cream works well on motorcycle helmets with face shields too:)
couldn't help but think of Jurassic park. haha
Tried red dots and three different pistols, and didn’t like them. I think it’s a solution in search of a problem. Generally most people are not much faster at finding the site and when it comes to combat shooting I think it’s very little game for a lot of potential problems. The red dot on one of my cherry guns fogged up daily and every time I took it out of the holster I had to clean the red dot off if I needed it to depend on my life. I would’ve been in a lot of trouble.
I'd highly recommend taking a red dot course with Scott Jedlinski. It was an eye opener for me as it is for just about everyone who takes his course.
Some idiot hasn’t heard of closed-emitters, obviously.
uhh problems with irons are known and pretty serious ...
main one being threat focus which either makes you lose focus on actual threat by focusing on the sights OR lose sight picture if not focusing on sights... especially since natural reaction for high stress situation is threat focus ...
if you think speed is the goal of RDS then you didnt understand what its for ... red dots dont give you speed, they give you ACCURACY you simply cant get with irons and ability to look at what you are shooting at instead of squinting at irons.
it also helps that RDS forces people to keep both eyes open, because i have seen far too many people close one eye when trying to shoot with irons which is BAD habit...
I came to the same conclusion you did. I have owned an RMR, Deltapoint, ACRO P1 and several Holosuns (open and enclosed emitters) and I trained with all of them to the point of proficiency. They have been mostly mounted on Glocks via their MOS system with Forward Control plates and I have had several slides milled. My carry gun was a Sig P365XL with a Holosun 507k direct mounted. After several years, a few thousand dollars and thousands of rounds in training, I went back to iron sights on all of my pistols. I found that I was just as fast and accurate with irons out to about 15 yards. The benefits of a red dot were definitely noticeable past 15 yards but statistically I will likely never encounter a self defense shooting farther than that. Ken Hackathorn had a great point from a recent video about red dots where he insisted that you train for probabilities rather than possibilities. Red dots make a lot of sense for law enforcement or military applications but I don't think the red dot is going to be the deciding factor in the outcome of a self defense shooting for your average citizen.
@@johnm3659 if you train for "probabilities" and not "possibilities" then you DONT NEED A GUN ... because PROBABILITY that you will ever need it is so miniscule that its statistically pointless ...
but guess what, we do carry because we want to be ready for POSSIBILITY that we will need to defend someones life however NOT PROBABLE it is that it will happen ...
ill say it again, go ask Eli Dickens if he ever though he will have to take shots at 40 yards ... but guess what, he had to.
I am an old guy, who started in law enforcement with an S&W Mdl 10, back when speed loaders were the new technology, and our total loadout was 18 rds. I now carry a Red Dot on all my carry guns, [but] they all have backup irons and I train with both. I will not carry any gun with a red or green dot alone. I have had the dot sight fail on me right when I needed it. There was no, “hold on I have to change the battery.” My first failure was right in the middle of a LE qualification and the other was during a timed shoot - don’t shoot qualification. In both cases I qualified, but only because I had backup irons to go too. As for anti-fog I have had good luck with BreakThrough anti-fog. I am 68 with severe astigmatism. In low light I have to really turn down the power on the dot to keep from seeing multiple circles that obscure the target. Also, for me I have to keep both eyes open, which greatly reduces eye strain and really helps me get sight on target. For anyone that really wants to carry a red dot, I highly recommend training with Scott Jedlinski, Modern Samurai Project. In my opinion MSP is the best training you can get if you are going to carry a red dot.
As always, sage advice. Much to my chagrin, I am now an old fart myself, complete with astigmatism AND cataracts that aren't quite ripe enough to have fixed surgically. You mention that you're getting fond of the green dot. Well, I learned with my very first AR-15 optic, a Vortex Strikefire II, that the green dot was the perfect solution for me. I don't get the oblong, blotchy disk with all the rays emanating in every direction and completely distracting me from proper focus. Since then, every optic I've purchased is a green dot. My preferred EDC pistol is the Smith & Wesson Equalizer with the Holosun 407K-GR X2 sight, and my marksmanship has seen a profound improvement. I was also both stunned and pleasantly surprised that you endorse the "dot acquisition" method I've used which is to use my jaw against my upper right arm. I get the dot on target now so much faster than I ever could with my Hi Power and its Hi Viz tritium "light pipe" sights. Thanks for a great video. I'd been wondering what your opinion of pistol optics has been for a long time.
I have always had a non-prescriptive approach in life, and I spent 28yrs in the Army. How can that be? Surely you are a lockstep guy Mike. NO! Everyone is an individual. What motivates one may not motivate another. Let us go to firearms. Sure, we trained to standards, but I always looked at the guys who were really good shots and darn it, several of them had variations in positions, whatever, just doing it their way. I NEVER messed with them, given the fundamentals were present. I remained results oriented. I had a kid that did not want the ACOG. He shot expert time and time again with open sights. He grew up shooting open sights and had better than average eyesight and was a natural. Give him more reins, an old Texas term for let the horse do what the horse does. Those guys are not the "average". The Army was designed for average folks.
Myself? On my personal carry gun, I am not adding an optic. I have a laser in my grip and iron sights. That works for me. We all face Mother Nature and Father Time in our WWE match called life and at anytime one of them can come and piledrive you from the turnbuckle. I spent a good 2 years trying, very hard, even seeking professional instruction twice with different people, to do the red dot. Rounds, time, effort, I wanted it to work. I realized it was not to be. With the laser and irons, I have no issues. My shooting is decent.
You are an individual. You decide what fits you. I can tell you wear this boot because I said so, or you can figure out what boot works for your foot, the width, the length, arch support yes or no, etc. Only you can determine that. I would say if a dot works for you use it. For the guys who like the iron sight, yes, use them. At the end of the day, we all have to be honest with only one person for this question: do you feel ready right now to place your life on the line with your system? If you are sure, rest easy. If not, get to work and fix it.
I'm 52 & saw many "fads" gimmick stuff; 1980s 1990s 2000s. Mostly ammunition & add-ons. CT lasergrips were popular for around 10yr. Then 1913-rails came out, then newer, more robust 🔦 rolled out. As did night sights & "fiber optics" 😏. The 9x19mm rose & fell(hard) then rose again 📈. Optics are fine but I'm in no major rush to slap down $400-700.00 for rear pistol optics.
Just giving you a 👍for a well written comment.
@@DavidLLambertmobileget a holosun for $300
Well said, Mike!
@@Dont_Tread_On_Me I just did and I’ll never go back lol Since getting an optic with my compensator my shooting has improved twice as much
Massad I love your channel. I would never use an optic on a handgun. My opinion comes from 5 years working as a private contractor for the US government. I worked the border of Mexico to the near tip of Tierra del Fuego. I have been in dozens and dozens of gunfights, more than Id care to admit. I have personally seen two men killed on seperate occasions using optics on their pistols. Both times they went dry on their primary and had to resort to their backup handgun. One gentleman was wounded and blood covered his optic and he was killed trying to wipe it off. The second had his optic lens cracked by shrapnel from stucco bursting from a building hit with automatic fire. In a gunfight with automatic weapons I cannot describe how much shrapnel is flying around, its everywhere. He was last seen trying to knock the optic off on a windowsill.
Optics are fine if your aging and have tired eyes and/or in competition. They make you look like a pro on the range. But in the field Im a hard no on optics and personally would never use one. Far too many unseen forces can cause those things to fail. Practice with iron sights you find best to acquire the target and then practice some more.
Thats my humble opinion Massad. I love your channel and wish you and all viewers well.
I totally agree 👍
Very good points that I never thought of. Thank you for sharing. I carry a red dot that cowitness with Iron and practice mostly iron. Never thought of an obstruction as you mentioned.
Excellent take on red dots. Much better than some other folks at Wilson Combat.
I love the Old Fart reference since I'm one of them. But honestly I'm quickly becoming a believer, especially since it works very well with my astigmatism. Thanks for the perspective and your views on this subject it's much appreciated.
@nighthawkron •
That is quite true, as I get older I may change from my customary cap & ball Revolver.
😇
@@2007vwbeetle For the Shield Plus (same slide as the equalizer) i use a Riton Mprd 2. It's shake awake, auto brightness, 2 Moa dot, it's a pretty good sight. If there were one thing I'd change it would be adjustable brightness, it sometimes is a little too intense and appears to look like a star rather than a dot.
I've personally carried with a dot for a couple years now. I find they work great personally, but I understand why some people would be hesitant about using them.
New vs old, metal vs polymer.
I got one and I'm happy with it.
I currently use a non-optic sighting system when shooting handguns that works well with stress physiology when the sympathetic (fight or flight) nervous system kicks in. Both eyes open, isosceles (turret) stance, semi-crouch, focus on threat, target above sights, front sight above rear sights, sights in peripheral vision, allowing you to see the entire bad guy torso.
The traditional target method of one eye open one eye squinting, semi-weaver, sights obscuring bottom half of torso target, carefully lining up the sights, and focusing on front sight is not how the human brain and body operate when the fight or flight adrenaline response kicks in.
It becomes very natural and intuitive with moderate range practice, with very good rapid fire accuracy at combat handgun distances.
I'm 63 with severe astigmatism (as well as the presbyopia that comes with age!). Adding a green dot optic to my pistols and AR's was a game changer. But it DID take time to make the transition from iron sights. And all of my guns have iron sights that co-witness with the green dot, just in case!
As a retired Range master/armorer for a southern California sheriff's department I have ( for years now ) enjoyed your expertise. Recently I have observed my ex department changing over to red dot sights on their duty Glocks which for the most part mild conditions is a very good match in mt humble opinion. I however have moved out of that state to one where the firearms mentality is not so restrictive and am finding the carry red dot sights great for my seventy six years as a proud American - thank you again for your expertise and thanks to Wilson Combat for sponsoring your series .
Carried with an RMR for 3 years. Last month I took off my red dot and returned to the irons. Got a G19 slide and RMR to sell now.
How come? I’m back and forth on milling my Glock for one
Personally I think there is a place for both. Just as I have different weapons I carry for differing occasions. Definitely have to put in the time for using a red or green dot. If I’m at church or somewhere I might need a longer shot,I carry the dot. Thanks for all the great videos and as for some of the detractors in these comments, wow. Lol
Great comment sir. I have some guns without optics. Putting several red dots on my two main carry guns I want a dot for longer shots to. Some of us do need that option.
I do the same. Carry a gun with a dot if I'm going to be in a crowded place like Church. Carry a gun with irons for other circumstances like cold weather.
Trijicon rmr type 2s are rugged in extreme weather.
Wow!! That’s awesome. Never thought about it like this! 😂 you gotta “dress” for the occasion
Well, You have an abundance of common sense, and I like it!
I recently got a Sig 365xl with Remeo zero. Did I mention I'm 69 years old. Never had any red dot experience. This was also my first striker fired handgun. I hated both the gun and site. I was spraying bullets all over the target. But after some practice things got better. Had to train for better trigger control and shoot with both eyes open. My groups tighted up considerably. Finally switched grip module to the Wilson combat frame on the 365
Wow, what a difference. I'm shooting better than I ever did with Iron sites. I now love the pistol and red dot. May consider a better red dot in the future but for now the Remeo zero will do. You have to train and burn ammo to get used to anything new. The downside is it is expensive but necessary.
Quicker site acquisition and being able to focus on the target were good enough reasons for me to switch to red dots. Just make sure you buy a quality one that will be durable. If you're going to cheap out on a red dot, you should probably stick with your irons.
Perfectly said
Very well said James!
You can target focus with irons as well. Works even better with a dot though.
Cheap pistol dots are only good if you’re not sure about them and want to try it out. But honestly if budget is a problem, I’m a slut for Holosun. Their EPS is fantastic. They’re also pretty damn durable from the tests I’ve seen done.
@@michaels5210 Holosun's are great tbh! Perfect for people who want to try our reddots but want something that doesn't sacrifice quality.
Thank you Mas. Happy holidays to you and your family.
When I got my Walther PDP full size, and I put a green dot on it, Walter simply said to find the dot squeeze your pinky that's holding the handle of the pistol and it'll come right into play. I used that and it definitely helped.
Damn best gun advice ever! It works!
A BIG benefit of the reflex sight is its easy acquisition in low light.
Hello Massad Ayoob great to see you're still active, I remember reading your articles in Guns and Ammo during the eighties. I am surprised to see some of your shooting techniques differ so much from Jerry Miculek, namely pushing your head forward to meet the sights and putting your right arm out stiff with your bicep against your cheek. He shoots both red dots and iron sights Exceptionally Fast, says bring your gun to your eye, head erect, grip slightly off center and keep your elbows kind of flexed. It is interesting to see different techniques all over. I though wouldn't want to get in any kind of gun fight with Jerry or even his daughter Lena for that matter. PS I would love to try a red dot on my Springfield XD 9mm but on my old trusty 1911 45s, I'll just stick with fixed combat irons; I shoot both eyes open on everything except scoped rifles. Good Presentation Mr Ayoob and good day.
Profoundly educating.
I'm old so it's iron sights for me and i still wheel gun it with my back up G45 9m
Another great commentary! These video's are always so informative
Thanks for sharing your evaluation.
Excellent analysis, as always! At 74, my eyesight isn't what it once was, and I find it difficult to view the front sight and target sharply enough to get a decent sight picture. All of my carry pistols now have a green dot sight AND a green laser. Using the laser gives me the ability to literally shoot from a low ready position and reliably hit the target center mass at 25 yds. I have three different green dot sights; a Holosun circle-dot on my Springfield XDM, which gives me a large circle to quickly acquire the dot when presenting the weapon; a Primary Arms/Holosun on my CZ P01, which uses an even larger circle to allow you to quickly acquire the targeting chevron, and a Swampfox Sentinel on my Springfield Hellcat, which has only a 3-MOA center dot, but which partially co-witnesses with the original sights which makes for quicker sight acquisition. Cannot emphasize enough: Practice, practice, practice presenting your weapon so that you naturally are in position to see the dot, and keep focused on the target, looking through the dot sight or at the laser beam, to see whether your opponent is drawing a weapon or a cell phone. 👍👍👍
What's crazy is at 74 you use the 3 same pistols id use.. lol
I can't afford a nice cz pistol but I got a nice EAA witness I came up on cz clone, I have a xdm9 and a HS2000 (basically a xd9) and the hellcat is a little out of the budget but I got a wannabe hellcat (xds9)
Solid points. I have red dots on most of my carry guns and still can’t say they’re totally worth it for concealed carry. For duty or competition pistols, I’m more pro red dot. I can say (for me) that when things get “dynamic” is where dots shine. I recently took a advanced pistol class and I was a bit slower with the dot from within 10 yards where neither the target or myself were moving. However, when we started to move, shoot from awkward positions, or shots beyond 10 yards, the dot was a big help.
I'm one of those Old Farts and my new Sig P320 shoots like a dream right out of the box with the red dot. Love It
Great Video, thank you!
Awesome video and info. Love listening to Massad, one of the true great mentors of the gun craft
Hes rinsed. Boomer. Fudd. Weve been using the same red dot tech on rifles for decades... its not complicated. Its a better way of aiming. He wouldnt say we need to wait and see if our carbine reddot batteries die in the cold or that theyre jus as effective as irons.
@@omardevonlittle3817 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
@@p.doetsch6209 the truth hurts huh old man? They used red dots in Nam lol. Gotta vet em for another 50 years. Not sure if good
I’ve been waiting for more of those comedic impressions, and you did not disappoint. 😂
Great content and delivery
Mas like you I'm an old guy and with aging eyes a red dot is very appealing. I decided to take a red dot on a pistol slow. I've been using a red dot on my AR for 20 years so I'm no stranger to the benefits. What I've done is put a red dot on my 22 pistol so I can afford to practice a lot before it becomes a carry option. I've got to say I'm impressed. I was hitting steel at distances I never thought I could hit and quickly. Like you I would still want iron sights as I do on my ARs. BTW I still review my class notes from Judicious Use of Deadly Force at TR and then mail a copy.
I'd put it on a SHTF pistol, but as far as everyday carry? It not really necessary, and here's my take:
IF you're not a LEO, special operator or in a SHTF scenario, there's almost never going to be a a time where you're in a bad situation where you'll have adequate time to aim _that_ well with the red dot to make it count. I've seen enough Active Self Protection videos with gun defenders/offenders firing *AND* moving to know that you're probably not going to have time to aim _any_ pistol like you do at the range with a full presentation within defensive distances (less than 10 yards)
I see Red dots definitely could benefit SpecOps, LEOs and SHTF survivors more than an everyday carry, but do what you want.
I loved the story about his cataracts preventing him from using red dots, and the quip about fireworks with cataracts being "awesome".
He was joking.
I appreciated that story, too! And that explains my initial issues with red dot
Thanks for making the vid.
Very educational. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
As an older shooter, I find that a red dot is extremely useful. I did have to, and still do, train myself to pick up the dot quickly. Just like all tools, we have to learn how to use them properly.
I started having trouble with my eyes as I got older and it really impacted my ability to aquire and align iron sights. My accuracy was going south fast and the time it took to squeeze off a shot was going north. I decided to give a red dot a try. I knew from the first shot that the red dot was my answer. It did take a bit to get used to it but "seeing" how accurate I could be with it and being able to shoot like I used to gave me the incentive to put in the reps. I don't think about it anymore , the gun comes up and the dot is there! I have suppressor height irons on it too just in case. Us old guys don't trust technology as much as we trust good ol steel !
I've been having trouble with my eyesight as I age as well. I can see clearly to arms length but past that, things get quite blurry. Since most of life happens past arms length, I wear glasses to see distance. Once the glasses are on, the iron sights are a blurry mess and therefore unusable. The red dot allows me to see the target and the dot with my glasses on! If my glasses should get knocked off, that's okay because my irons now become crystal clear.
Great advice, Uncle Mas !!
I Always enjoy your opinion - and updates.
I started using a green dot on my EDC around six months ago and I really love it! I've been shooting for about 25 years, and pistol shooting for about 15 years and it really has been an awesome addition to my pistol shooting technique.
I will totally agree that the learning curve can be a steep one if you have been shooting with irons for a long time. I was really struggling to get mine zeroed when I first installed it on my EDC, but once I wrapped my head around that task, I had it shooting right where I wanted very easily. The thing that I was struggling with was figuring out the parallax (even high end dots have some parallax). It definitely took me some time to get used to having the irons in a different sight picture than normal. Now, I can transition between my dot and my irons easily without thinking about it.
Now, it can be very expensive to try it out. A lot of slides don't come pre-cut to accept a dot, and getting them milled can be pricey. You also have the cost of any adapter plates, and the dot itself to contend with. I would suggest seeing if a friend has one that you can test drive, or see if any ranges have dots installed on their rentals. That way, you're not making a larger financial commitment on something you might not like.
TLDR is this. My recommendation is to definitely give it a solid try, even if you aren't entirely sold on the idea. You might just be surprised at how well you shoot with it. Also, practice, practice, practice. This is even true if you are using irons. If you put the time and effort in, I think you'll really enjoy the end result.
For those curious, my EDC is a Kimber R7 Mako with the Holosun 507K. It's a great combination and I love carrying it every day.
The voice change killed me.
what I needed to hear, thank you
This was a great video and balance of both opinions.
Good discussion, Mas! Always appreciate your level-headed and fair approach.
Love your work at ASP and ASPextra especially the podcasts, great to hear from someone who has lived through it then just someone telling someone else’s story.
Thanks for listening
I use to shoot with open sights and have also competed with open sights. Today I have eye damage and the red dot helps. I practice at home learning to locate the red dot, on the range I use the red dot exclusively now. It helps greatly in my accuracy.
Thank you Mr. Ayoob well stated and informative. Much appreciated
Outstanding videos!
This man knows his stuff. Period.
I just started swapping over to the red dot. I’m 65 and it definitely helps me. But like you say there is a learning curve. I am using the backup sights
Great review
Absolutely can’t get enough of Massad!!!!! Love his videos!!!!👍🇨🇦
I'm 65 and got my first red dot. A Leupold pro point on a Walther PDP compact 5. Definitely a learning experience. I have no access to training for this sight and am going through exactly what you talk about here. This video has been more helpful than anything so far. I do need to find some iron sights that will co witness with the red dot. I tend to put Tru GLO on all my pistols except for the Walther.
I am eager to get trained on the red dot so I can carry the Walther.
Thanks for the video, and Merry Christmas to you and yours.
I've thought if I'm in a shootout, %95 of the time, it would occur so fast and too close for me to use any sights but in about the other %5 ,where target is more distant and incident more drawn out, a red dot can give me an advantage.
BINGO!
Always love your opinion Mass, been following you for 20+ years for information and direction , Top job mate.
Thank you for your objective discussion. Food for thought.
I’m 39 years young and I’ve been trained with iron sights since I was eight… I wouldn’t say I’m old, but I am a fan of traditional sights.
Just works best for me…
Great video 👍
53 same here!
I personally carry a Canik TP9 SFX with a holosun 407c green dot. I absolutely love it I’ve only shot about 20 rounds with it on so far definitely need more practice with it. Most definitely will, just bought a 1000 rds of 124g 9mm on Black Friday.
Btw love the videos, information and advice you give. It definitely would take me a lifetime to even learn some of the stuff Ik now compared to 10-15 years ago just by word of mouth and books.
Open or CC? That's is a big gun to carry, no?
thank you, sir. grateful for your metered, thoughtful perspective.
There is very much to learn from this man!
I'm a Fudd who just went red dot recently, and I gotta say they're awesome. I'm still not exactly sure how they'd work without irons because I use my front sight to orient against the dot. But yes, my accuracy has improved. There's definitely a brightness, though, where it blooms out with my old eyes.
Have you tried a green dot? It's supposed to help with Astigmatism.
Depends on the day and the situation. I use both. As my eyes age I find myself preferring the red dot.
@@2007vwbeetle I have Trijicon RMR's on my M&P 9mm compacts and they are great. If I were you, I'd either get the RMRcc (it's for smaller pistols) or the Holosun 507K. Either will serve you well and they are both well vetted.
@@2007vwbeetle Holosun 507 is what I use.
As always great content I'm in the process of changing to a red dot . Thank you for your imput
Well done, thank you! 👍
I’m a 28yr police ofc, Firearms Instructor & Idpa master class shooter. I switched to all red dots on all my pistols 3yrs ago. I use Holosun & Swampfox. The advantages to me clearly outweigh any negatives. You can see so much more of what’s going on, you get to stay target focused with both eyes open, makes far shots easier, helps aging eyes & they’re great in low light. You do have to use the correct threadlocker on the screws & use an in/lbs torque wrench. You do need to set a battery schedule. The good ones only need 1 battery/year anyway. I used scopes & red dots on hunting & patrol rifles for years, so what’s the problem? Some people don’t like change. It took time to get used to the target focus shooting & consistently finding the dot. You do have to practice. But now I don’t think about it. The dot just appears where I’m looking & point the gun.
The “problems:” they make no difference at combat ranges. May even be slower for some. They make the gun bigger. Abs harder to conceal. They fog and may not work great in rain. You need to hack up your gun to put one on. You can’t forget to change batteries. They run on a Chinese circuit board. There are others. I like simple pieces of steel that will never fail for a SD gun. Those are all the reasons why red dots aren’t used by millions of people.
@@66smithra Hmm, so far, after thousands of rounds, I’ve had no fogging, loose optics or dead batteries. To each his own, if you only like irons that’s fine.
@@chrisb9478 agreed. Just saying that there ARE problems with them that don’t exist with irons. I have no problems hitting with irons out to 20 yards so I have no need to introduce more complexity and points of failure. You may disagree, but these are logical, valid reasons why many will never use optics on their carry gun.
@@66smithra 1. they make HUGE difference at any range as tehy allow you to focus on the target instead of squinting at the front sight
2. they make no difference for concealability ... for CC the GRIP is what makes the gun "print" not small piece of metal tucked at the edge of your belt and holster
3. they dont fog if treated properly and if you are super concerned about it there are fully enclosed units that work in any condition
4. current "go-to" brands have all +- 5 years battery life ... and thats without motion sensing tech or solar panel secondary source ... change battery once a year and you are going to be just fine
5. 95% of stuff anyone uses is "made in china" and frankly there is significant part of those 5% left that are WORSE quality xD Pick a brand that has reputation for quality product and it doesnt matter one bit where it was made, just how WELL its made ...
6. ah yes because simple piece of steel cant get bent or covered in mud and is sooo great in low light conditions ... guess what, you can have BOTH on your gun - i certainly do ...
@@Asghaad there’s no need for a red dot on an SD gun. Performance in practical shots at practical sd distances will be exactly the same unless you are older and have bad eyes. That’s the bottom line.
As a person used to using iron sights and shoots rather well with them, I'll stick with em. When I worked in a gunshop, many of my coworkers were trying to get me in on the fad but I never got past using iron sights and never saw a need for an rds and I don't like the idea of depending on something that can fail when I would need it most.
…. You understand iron sights can fail, too, yeah? Tell me you’re a stubborn fudd without telling me.
@@0Snare0Affair0 tell me you don't know the meaning of the word fudd without telling me
@@Full_Otto_Bismarck Fudd (plural Fudds) (derogatory) A gun-owner who supports traditional hunting guns but favors gun control for other guns such as handguns or tactical rifles.
…. Sir, where is the confusion? Traditional beliefs would fall into this, like ‘irons never fail’ or ‘red dots are a fad’
AKA that’s something a fudd would say
@@0Snare0Affair0 It has nothing to do with what guns or accessories someone prefers, it's about supporting gun control based on the belief that only hunting is a legitimate use for firearms.
Find something more productive than trolling the comments section.
as a young, old man (50) I absolutely love Massad's perspective and comments on getting old.
Massad, you are the best. Thank you for teaching us the ways.
Interesting video. For me, I’ll stick to iron sights as that is what I trained with and it is effective for me.
Do you like & use a red dot on your AR? If you do , case closed.
You should give the red dot a chance, once you train to it, they are unbelievably fast
@@garymatney9344 …. Lol no. Not even close. Totally different use cases. Unconcealed weapon with 16” barrel radius for 50+yd vs concealed weapon with 3-6” for 3-10yd point and shoot scenarios. And You shouldn’t be relying on a red dot for an AR in a CQB setting either.
@Keith Rabun ah, a ‘scene rip’/statistic person… statistics offer little comfort to the man that was just stuck by lightning. Homie compared an AR dot to a red dot on a pistol to stress how it still makes things easier, faster, and more accurately IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE AND IMPROVE ON THAT ASPECT. Stop bringing bullshit ‘scenerio’ talk and agree where we are trying to agree: it’s the future, with the typical battery life being OVER 40,000 hrs, it’s easier to shoot and maintain a better target-focus since it’s a dot superimposed over the target vs 3 different focal-planes(rear, front, and target). Just stop and bite your fudd tongue, for the love of god.
*scenario
Excellent perspective.
This channel’s content is awesome!
I’ve watched Ken’s Red dot video and the rebuttal from John Correia. In the comments of John’s video there was a remark that stated, “If you can see your sights, you’ve already been shot”.
The stats appear to say that in a self defense gunfight you have a few seconds to assess and respond with your firearm. I don’t own that experience, and God willing I never will, so my perspective is limited.
My sense is that if the person commenting was sharing an experience that they owned, then when you’ve been ambushed, and are able to find an opportunity to access your weapon and respond to the threat, milliseconds are the measure of time in that scenario.
When your eyes lock on to a point on the threat, and give the go signal, the instant the muzzle clears your body the trigger timing must begin; the sights are irrelevant, it’s all muscle memory and body mechanics at this point.
If your training has been focused on a static firearm, target and sight picture, you may need more time to pull off a successful response.
That is my train of thought exactly. I practice muscle memory and try to ignore my sights. Have found that a bright front sight helps once the gun gets jumping I just keep the front sight vertical with my target. If you can't mag dump a torso target at at least 10y with no sights then you are practicing wrong imo. Everyone thinks they are a bad ass gun slinger till the heat is on. Police practice all the time and still hit only 20% of their shots. Many interviews I have seen have said the same thing, when the shit hits the fan you are just shooting of instinct. You can't ask the bad guy to hold still while you line up on his head lol
My concerns include, the red-dot assembley getting caught on clothing when drawing; failing to turn on; not bright enough in daylight situation, etc.
All of which are evidence that you don't have much experience with them. I've never once had a variety of red dots, on a variety of different pistols, get hung up on clothing when drawing from concealment. A beavertail, or a hammer, is more likely to snag. As for not being bright enough for daylight situations, you do know that you can adjust the brightness on just about any red dot, right? Just turn it up a few clicks before you leave the house in the morning, turn it down a few clicks in the evening - it's no big deal.
Sorry those are non concerns if you get dust rated RDS and train
I keep my RMR dot typically 1 click below max brightness which for me is bright enough for even the sunniest day. In lower light, you can still shoot with it but in the evenings if its darker I'll discreetly click down I more on the brightness. I like that with the RMR, the + and - buttons are on opposite sides of the housing which makes adjusting the brightness by feel thru clothing very easy.
lack of training
though i dont bash anyone who just wants irons
I ain’t gonna convince you otherwise, but this is a nonissue. Just about all of it.
My 2 cents, nothing wrong with iron sights, and frankly I'm getting a little put off with adding more and more battery-operated this that and the other to my life. That disposable battery isn't infallible, and I'm not thrilled with the idea of needing to add batteries to my ammunition rotation strategy (new/unused plus what's in the optic). I kind of feel that this militant gospel for red dots for self defense is like saying fidget spinners alleviate anxiety - it's a psychological security blanket
@@naaapologist4789 That's probably why *I'm* still alive in 2022 😜
99.9% of pistols with optics still have…guess what…functional iron sights.
@@donovanchilton5817 yeah ok, perfectly valid and solid argument; let me ask the bad guy to hold off on shooting me while I quickly remove the dead optic and have a fair do over. Ugh
I am in agreement the many other comments regarding the need to train with red dots (as is the case with any piece of equipment). Also important are drills designed to simulate malfunctions and breakage. Those are important too!
Mass is a super class act!
Great video Mass, to each his own. I guess if you need a crutch, then do it, but in a high stress situation, you don't want to think, did I change the battery? I stick with tried-and-true irons, thank you!
Once a year battery change is too much for some people. Better stick with velcro laces too.
"To each his own". Shoot an IDPA or USPSA match and compare your score vs the carry optics competitors.
That's why no one was putting red dots on combat arms 24 years ago, but technology marches on.
@@jessegpresley not talking about competition, this is about self-defense
You can build a better mousetrap but I'm going to keep the cat. Love the new technology but I'll stick with iron sights on my carry gun. As always thank you and I wish you seasons greetings and a merry Christmas
Yeah who'd want a sighting system designed for a target focus?
@@jessegpresley I like red dots but i also shoot irons target focused so that argument doesn't matter for everyone.
@@jessegpresley as long as the battery isn’t dead, the glass is clean, the bolts didn’t come loose, etc. you guys make mountains out of molehills for shooting 10 yards or closer. You need a computer and Chinese circuit board strapped to your gun to make a 25 foot shot.
@@jessegpresley in a defensive situation you’re going to be unconsciously point-shooting while target-focused. Training reps with iron sights allow you point the weapon very accurately at close ranges. Keep in mind that the vast majority of carry shootings are at 3-5 yards or less. With reasonable training you could have completely satisfactory accuracy with no sights at all.
@@66smithra I use my acro for shooting c-zone targets from 0-100 yards
Thanks for your Experience and Opinions!!! Appreciate You!!!
I always listen to Massad Ayoob for solid serious advice. I really didn’t expect to laugh my ass off in the middle of the video! 4:15 👍😂👍😂👍
Something I always state is that not all iron sights are created the same. A $150 iron sight upgrade can make all the difference. Second, the red dots made for carry pistols today can do-witness to the point where you can use both at the same time. It’s not a mutually exclusive decision to make. I find the red dot to be frustrating and then very awesome after I train with it. But overall I think both dots and sights can co-exist. The caveat being that, in most self defense situations for civilians, a red dot probably won’t help but it may not hurt either. It then becomes an added expense. So i guess it all depends on what your goal is.
Co witness is useless if your dot is dirty or covered in blood. I love them but removed them from my edc for this reason. If you have a clean city lifestyle they might be ok but mine stays on my hip 24 7 and always found it almost unusable when I would pull it out for some fun or practice. But like I said I'm out here covered in mud and blood most of the time so my red dot was too haha
I’ll stick with my old iron sights. Most self defense shootings are a few yards and stressful I don’t want to take time to look for a little dot. A long gun is totally different
Red dots literally take sight alignment out of the picture. They are significantly better than iron sights.
Found the old guy 😂 jk
Please go into how a long gun is totally different. When it comes to sights.
@user-yj7ph9vk2k well having those sensitive electronics on a fighting pistol might not be the the best for highly physical situations
That’s why you train. If you’re not willing to train don’t put a dot on. But literally your logic is the opposite of reality. To shoot iron sights by the book you press out, focus on the front sight so that the rear sight AND YOUR TARGET are out of focus. Iron sights are antithetical to what’s natural, which is being threat focused. When shooting with a dot you just keep both eyes open, focus on the target, and shoot when ya see the dot on the target. The idea that it’s MORE work than irons is nonsensical.
Ed McCourt
Massad: Spot on!!! regarding the R.D.S.=Red Dot Sight, I'm a retired Marine and Retired LEO Instructor, With a fair amount of Combat experience , I'm ANCIENT at (87) and still
shoot Competition Granted only Bulls Eye because I am allowed to sit in a chair and /or my VA issued Walker, since an 1967 spine wound finally came back to haunt me about
(5) yrs ago. I had to quit (3) gun and other tactical competition. As an NRA , Tactical shooting Inst since 1955, and an IALEFI member since 1990, Master CCW instructor ,
Collecting many
I relate shooting to golf, Guys tell me they spend a lot of time on the Driving range and putting greens, and are still not doing very well. I explain like shooting if you practice wrong
you tend to get real GOOD at being real BAD!
Semper Fi
Ed McCourt
Capt USMC (ret)
1952-1972 USMC
1973-1994 LEO
Like every video,well thought through gun wisdom and brilliantly articulated,and i love the minora blade sharp pieces of humour thrown in , much appreciated!
it's all a gimmick. like electronic music.
Thank you for all the informative video's.i find myself parched for more information !
Most EXCELLENT content and presentation ! Thank you !!!
You're very welcome!
Massad, as always you rock! And excellent review!
Thanks again!
I love them both, the only issue I ran into with irons was suppressor heightened sights with a flash light caused my shots to go low, so I put a holosun red dot on to adjust for the low shots, otherwise I would use irons only for carry
I am really enjoying your videos. Just started watching them. Great content.
Welcome aboard!
We love ya. You have got droll down!
It's always an honor to hear your robust and studious opinion, sir! I have a holosun acss red chevron sight on my carry gun and I absolutely love it! It is so much faster for me to acquire my target with it. Definitely takes training, but it's absolutely worth it.
Always get some nuggets from each segment. Good info.
A very good overview of Red Dot sights for carry guns. Spot on!
11:24 thanks you for the teaching
May god bless you and keep you in good health 🎉😊
I've been entertaining getting a Sig 365 with a red-dot. Thanks for the great video as always!