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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 พ.ค. 2024
- Dragon Ball is known for its many different transformations, but I think that some of the newer forms don't have the same impact that some of the older forms used to have. In this video I break down why I think that is.
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Tldr: plot driven transformations vs marketing driven transformations
I couldn’t agree with this comment more! 100%
Agreed
At the same time though. Goku and vegeta got their SSJ1 by themselves without any outside help. God was made from a ritual which I guess makes sense, but I don’t hate blue considering they already had super saiyan and god which is just a combination of the two and they were being trained by literal gods and angels to achieve that transformation
@@ggemcee5903 ssjbe ssjgui ui mui perfect blue muisusano true ui beast just a lot of bullshit forms for no reason dawg ssjg and blue where fine but none of this shi makes sense anymore but hey atlest its fun
@@yoh-tu4zmwhat do you mean?
Only beast doesn't makes sense?
I really loved GT for how Super Saiyan 4 was portrayed. Instead of the Super route where they'd unlock a new form and it became redundant quickly, 4 was the peak of power in GT and nothing above it- minus Fusion of course. It just felt like this immovable power whereas a godly state of Super Saiyan just felt... average.
Peak of power sure, but Goku used ssj4 against everyone, literally had to transform to lift a building
@Santzu Because he was a child still, after he first unlocked SS4 it should have permanently reverted his body back to an adult especially since people were tired of kid Goku
@@DADRB0B55 Yeah because Goku was definitely a normal kid right? GT kid Goku is still a multi star buster, he should not need to transform to lift a building
on the contrary i feel no one has a bad thing to say about SSJ4 whereas to me i feel like i should scrutinize it in some form
SSJ4 is mostly praised for returning saiyans back to their primal roots, but tbh besides its origins in the Great Ape forms, its got very little difference again w the Super forms w being "another stronger one". Functionally its just a way to keep Goku in his adult form again and alot of Oozaru elements arent really utilized. Secondly, I feel that returning to "saiyan roots" is a misstep in the characters of both Goku and Vegeta. Like they use their genetics and pretenatural talents to get stronger sure, but by now hardly any part of their growth is related to being a Saiyan. Goku spent his whole childhood adventures barely living up to any Saiyan and hes so much stronger than any Saiyan in both GT and Super that his lineage doesnt even matter anymore. Same goes for Vegeta really, that royal blood hasnt done him good since the Saiyan saga, every other meaningful step in his growth was outside the Saiyan heritage.
The martial arts angle of post Broly DB Super of largely similar power levels, but different mindsets like UI and UE are probably exactly what i wouldve done and what i feel r perfect ways to progress either goku or vegeta.
@@Santzu_ L
“Super Saiyan 3 never won a fight”
Wrath of the Dragon: Am I a joke to you?
It's sad that Movie is overlooked
When they hit you with the "its non canon"
(Iam currently holding a gun to my head)
@@XenoVerse_Goku there are several different Dragon Ball continuities, so it is canon. the question is which canon does it fit into? the answer is GT canon since Goku uses the Dragon Fist in both stories. it also fits nicely into the 10 year time skip between the fight with Kid Buu and the fight with Uub.
@brandonking5111 yeah he is just calling out the stereotypical reply canontards always come up with, which is funny because they honestly don’t even know the real “canon” as much as they want to claim usually they skipped the OG dragonball & only watched Z & super.
Yeah definitely and before someone says “ oH BuT iTS nOt CAnoN” shut up it still counts and your opinion on it not being canon doesn’t count
R.I.P. Akira Toriyama
Stop using his death to milk likes now please
@@phantaflame2889He’s not
@@eeeeee4414 People are just commenting it on every single video now. Don’t get me wrong, love Akira and everything he’s done for us but I can tell when these things slowly begin to shift where people only comment it because they know it’ll get them likes
@@phantaflame2889You get the rights to use that logic in 5 more days
For now it's aceptable and you're just overreacting, like dude. 💀
Using someone's death to get likes on videos is absolutely fucked up and all but they get nothing from saying "Rest in peace Toriyama" on comments. No fame whatsoever just a random comment on a random video.
I wish we got more techniques and less power ups, also R.I.P Akira Toriyama
Agreed. Unique abilities are more interesting vs just can destroy planets easier than they already could. But only if the abilities actually matter and aren't the guy "I've restrained the enemy" the enemy just powers through it by screaming really loud.
I mean, we still got a lot of techniques too. Goku learn Ultra Instinct, Mafuba, and briefly learns hakai in the manga's goku black arc , while Vegeta learns spirit fission, instant transmission, Ultra Ego, etc. Honesly, there was more of a focus on techniques here than in DBZ. The only techniques goku learns in DBZ is spirit bomb and instant transmision, and vegeta exclusively only learns new forms instead of techniques in DBZ
Agreed it shouldn't be about rainbow colors. That's why the og super saiyans are still best ss1,ss2,ss3 and ss4.
@@thebrightestknight6714kaioken?
@@thebrightestknight6714 goku does not learn hakai he tries to do it once and fails and never tries again, mafuba he learn, used once and never tried it again, ui as a technique was great, but they gave it white hair and made it a transformation so its not a technique in the end. vegeta (not only all those things are from manga and the video is about the anime) but he doesnt know how to use instant transmision, he used it once and said he would not be capable of doing it again, spirit fission was used once and was just a plot device to save earth, 0 use after that fight i even forgot he had that until now, ego is a transformation, instead of spamming blue vegeta now spams ego, in the end its the same shit but diferent colour (the more damage i take stronger i get is bad since vegeta ends up taking to much damage and passes out). so yeah we have almost no techniques and too many forms that are all to similar, just a diferent hair colour.
Maybe this is just me being cynical, but I think a big contributing factor to why we have so many new forms in Super is to help with toy sales.
Edit: Good to know I'm not being cynical.
It also keeps, let’s face it, stupid people invested in the series. Why bother with good writing when the fanbase will spawn a million videos overnight about “how strong is the new form? Can he beat Beerus?? What’s the multiplier??? Does this colour represent the rage of a Tibetan monk when his balls itch just before he reaches enlightenment????” It’s pathetic. Consoom new form and get excited for next form.
@@sigiligus dragon ball super fans are such stimulation depraved monkeys it ain’t even funny :(
That’s not even being cynical its the literal truth
@@sigiligus idk if a new form is coming due to recent news…
@@sigiligusok and? Do you seriously think Dragon Ball would be as entertaining if they were all constantly base? Goku getting UI broke the internet for a reason. The forms are interesting. True they didn’t know how to handle moving from God to Blue correctly but thats like the one issue
What I liked about GT is that ssj4 was the best form, but Goku would still be losing to villains even in that form. The way to overcome villains wasn’t to get a form stronger than ssj4, it was with strategy & the idea that everybody has a weakness. Figuring out the villain’s weakness & exploiting it is usually what gave the win. Not including fusion of course. They could go back to beating villains with that recipe so forms don’t become monotonous
It's not like Goku already fought energy-absorbing androids in the cell saga and should realize Super 17 has that ability quickly instead of repeatedly using ki blasts and not even trying melee attacks.
Goku doesn’t win in SSG ,SSBK or Ui when first introduced. Vegeta doesn’t win with UE so. The only person Goku beat with tactics was 17
This is really tough. Dragon Ball is about self improvement, with becoming the best being the prize for that. When you lose the prize, the message gets a bit lost. I personally think ToP played with the idea better by making Jiren represent Goku’s goal of becoming the strongest, but Goku rejects Jiren’s method by doing it alone, so he requires help to win. With GT it missed that extra layer of subtext to connect back to the premise
That’s correct, but also realize that new forms=new merchandise. They can’t sell toys based off of techniques & maneuvers, but they can sell another Goku with purple hair. The bulk of Dragon Ball profit that Toei rakes in will always be in the toys, statues, etc.
Imo we should've had ssg in both movies but then have blue in the universe 6 and Goku black arcs
Agreed
I agree, and Freeza's golden form should be another color. Red versus yellow doesn't look as good as blue versus yellow.
@@JotonioIIIhonestly, they should’ve swapped Golden for Black in the RoF and ToP arcs, and THEN when Black Frieza would show up, it would instead be Golden Frieza
@@joshuatorres2950 Golden Freeza looks much better than Black Freeza.
@@JotonioIIIgolden frieza is just fine being gold
The people who work on Dragon Ball Super (at least the show and manga) saw that Z introduced a new SS form every arc, copied that, but didn’t understand why, and didn’t understand that they need to show the training they went through.
And not only that. Every sayan transformation was a result of an emotional trauma. Somebody had to DIE so that a transformation could happen. The stakes where much higher before
Yea and they really used every form in the best way but DBS a new villian appears that somehow beats the best form out of nowhere.
My issues with each form:
SSJG: Should've gotten more time to shine.
SSJB: Should've been introduced later and given more unique abilities.
UI: I actually have no issues with this form, I actually really like how it's foreshadowed. 🔥
I even really like the Saiyan Instinct of TUI.
What about SSJB Kaioken and SSJB Evolution
Goku should have been in god form in goku black ark then ssjb should have been introduced in the rage boost moment
@@Goku_animations567 what about SSJB Kaioken?
SSJG should've been Saiyan God. SSB should've been SSJG
@@CloneGamerz289 SSJBK is fine.
It's just SSJB with Kaio-Ken on top. I like the aura.
I actually like SSJBE, it's an interesting form that's unique to Vegeta.
One of the biggest issues is that they would soon be facing guys that were instantly able to compete with/outclass these impossibly strong forms.
The annoying thing here is Super wrote the solution, and then ignored it. It introduced Beerus, Whis, and the other universes and never really capitalized on it. Only 2 story arcs had other universes as threats, Goku surpassed Beerus like 3 times and the goal post keeps moving, most universes have now been made irrelevent, Frieza is the next villian again, and Beerus and Whis seem to be getting close to being surpassed (with Goku beating Moro who has Merus’ abilities and strength). So every concept it added to prevent this issue it messed up or ignored
@nerdcorner2680 I think you're totally right. I also feel they expanded the world, only to quickly then shrink it all. They limited Universe 7 with the "28 planets with life" comment (which is absurd); and they brought out the supposed toughest fighters of most of the universes, with only one having fighters actually strong enough - too strong, honestly - to challenge 7's best. And with them even approaching/surpassing the destroyers, I half expect them to introduce someone above Zeno who oversees multiple groups of universes lol.
Goku getting as strong as a destroyer should be an eternal goal that he never achieves; or if he does, it should be the end of the series. In the meantime, they should try and rediscover that you can have the heroes fight and overcome a foe even if they aren't at the same power; that actually makes it more exciting (Zamasu stuff almost gets it right).
In the original manga almost every 2 years there was a new transformation for the Saiyan's. Super Saiyan came out in 1991, Super Saiyan 2 came in 1993, Super Saiyan 3 appeared in 1994(1 year transformation). So this is just consistency with the series especially going from Super Saiyan god to Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan(Super Saiyan Blue). There are a lot of forms but that's how these big companies want to capitalize on merchandise sales toys, clothes, video games, etc. etc.
100% nailed it
In Dragonball Kai they removed the filler, so In the same episode span of Super, they introduced Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3 & Fusion
It's all to sell toys and merchandise at the end of the day. Although Toriyama did say he came up with Super Saiyan so he and his editor could save time by not colouring Goku's hair black
R.I.P Akira Toriyama
@@po72644 It's funny that the "not coloring in hair" fact gets brought up, since he still had to ink in Goku's shirt, which was there for most of the fight.
Bro the problem is ssg and ssb happened literally 1 short arc apart. That's like 8 eps apart and we barely seen ssg.
Yea but the difference is that all of the android and cell arc happened before super saiyan 2
@@sky-oq5mrthe the toys mah toytyys mah moni
I have a love hate relationship with the forms cause I liked how originally the super saiyan forms had grades and each grade had their own draw backs and advantages
But I honestly don’t see or feel the difference in super saiyan blue from just regular super saiyan’s. To many of the forms are just “it makes you stronger and nothing else like beast gohan, I love gohan but it’s just like…..what? Like what does this do?
But here comes the love cause broly’s forms are what actually feels like a natural saiyan evolution, harnessing the power of the great ape while in human form was honestly one of the most delicious bits of saiyan lore we’ve ever gotten cause the great ape form rocks and GT was right to incorporate it into the super forms.
And things like ultra instinct & ego, they actually operate on different mentalities and actively changes how the user fights. With ultra instinct being more evasive and ego being a giant pain sponge
Honestly the SSG form was a missed opportunity to let non-Saiyans catch up a bit in power. I like the idea that the first God form Goku attains is a completely new form detached from Super Saiyan, and throughout Super he can try and combine the two ability (which creates the blue form)
I don’t think there’s too many forms, I just think they feel way too easily gained now. It should be more of a struggle for these power ups to happen but they honestly seem like random chance.
I think super saiyan blue, super saiyan god, and rose are unnecessary. Its just too many colors man. It feels like they exploited the idea of changing hair colors. Too many colors. I wish they kept it simple. Like ssj1,2 and 3 and Ultra instinct as the final form
Just cut out Super Saiyan Blue and Make Rose a variation on Super Saiyan God, to sell toys maybe have Goku Black cycle through Super Saiyan 1-3
@@tobin2.0Nah just nuke the god bullshit and go straight to ultra instinct. Ego and Instinct fit Goku and Vegetas characters. The god xformations are garbage.
@@kengxiWhy are they garbage? How can you go from regular ssj 3 with drawbacks to a divine technique the gods and angels use?
I like how Super is trying to get everyone to go their own unique way of getting stronger, and would keep that concept. Goku should have gone down the path of an Angel by training with Whis to master SSJ3 first, then he is trained in the arts of Divine Ki to obtain SSJG, and after that focus on Ultra Instinct. It should be a gradual evolution where he stays with these forms for a while to master them as a way of mastering himself.
Vegeta should follow a similar progression, but going down the path of a God of Destruction. Instead of getting SSJG like Goku, he should get SSJB, a mutation of Divine Ki that will set him on the tracks of unlocking his God of Destruction Mode. Instead of becoming a complete God like Goku, Vegeta wants to retain as much of his lineage as possible, going against the harmonious nature of an Angel. He can still keep the grades of SSJB, but once he has figured out how to go beyond that form, it evolves into Ultra Ego, a huge step into uncovering his God of Destruction Mode. After some training from Beerus, he eventually reaches the true potential of his path to power.
Piccolo should have been had at least one new form in Z, but since we're keeping to Super, I would have Piccolo also training with not only Whis, but Beerus as well, achieving two forms that differ from each other. His ultimate form a result of his training with Whis and his Orange form a result of his training with Beerus in their versions of Divine Ki.
Bulma can just upgrade the Androids with Divine Ki and/or Magic to give them an easy boost while upgrading their cybernetic parts with more powerful and durable materials.
I hate Beast Gohan and would prefer it if they continued for him to go down the path of a human with his Unlocked Potential form. So, instead of getting a new form, he just further develops what he has and possibly even learns magic to acquire a true Mystic form. I'm not completely sold on the idea myself, but it could be interesting.
That is to say, all of these should be built up over plenty of chapters/episodes to give a larger satisfaction in watching these characters achieve new levels of power. Perhaps after Goku goes SSJG against Beerus and loses, everyone puts it back into gear in fear and excitement of there being even more powerful beings out in the cosmos beyond their comprehension. Goku is trying to figure out ways to further SSJG on his own, but Vegeta takes the humble approach to be mentored by Whis and Beerus, being brushed off by the latter until Vegeta stands against Whis's methods of training in order to maintain what little pride he has left in his heritage. This catches the attention of Beerus who takes an interest in Vegeta's resolve to find his own way to power, begrudgingly taking the Prince of All Saiyan's under his wing.
With everyone on Earth still trying to find a way to increase their power, Frieza arrives, having been brought back to life by the Dragon Ball's from a subordinate or maybe even Cooler (who has been keeping to his own side of the universe until the death of his family, keeping a critical eye on the Z-Fighters, gathering information while preparing his plan to take them all out). Aware that Goku has obtained a new power that puts him in the realm of the Gods, Frieza had been training his ass off since his revival, equaling the power of the Z-Fighters (minus Goku in his SSJG form). Having prepared for his eventual defeat at the hands of the Saiyan Born on Earth, Frieza leads them all into a false security of defeat, allowing Frieza's secret weapon (or just Cooler) to take Goku out. With the Dragon Team on the verge of defeat, Vegeta arrives in his SSJB form to defeat Frieza and his forces.
Following this event, Goku and Piccolo, maybe some others, opt to learn Divine Ki as well. Goku wants to learn from Whis, believing the Angel would be the best teacher to help him master SSJG, while Piccolo decides to learn from both, applying their versions of Divine Ki to himself. Whis forces Goku to master SSJ3 first, while teaching Piccolo on how to obtain and control Divine Ki.
I'm not entirely sure which arc I'd want them to master their current forms and then achieve new ones, but it should all be foreshadowed and built up for the audiences enjoyability.
yap
Well said.!
@@supreme_died People are right, us Dragon Ball fans cannot read I guess.
@@r-o-k I actually agree with this, but it would only be possible with a reboot of DBZ, which I'd be fine with.
I thought Beast Gohan was a great Idea, But poor in execution. My idea would be that the beast transformation would be something like a Super Saiyan 4 + Ultimate form type transformation, Which would give Gohan great power, But the draw back would be that the longer he stayed in the form, the more he loses control of himself and become an out of control beast. The next arc would be for Gohan to train and learn to control and stay in the form for longer periods without losing control.
I'm glad I found your channel. I'm always happy to support a brotha. Toriyama definitely created a great thing for people all over the world to bond on. Your commentary is great, keep the heat coming 🔥🔥🔥
I think that now it will start to slow down for characters like goku, vegeta, Gohan, piccolo and even Broly. They all might even not get another form and the story might shift from them to the next generation. But that is my head canon
We will get Ultimate Warrior Kuririn and 4 eyed Tenshinhan in 2025
@@HustlerHorstRuedigerThats so funny!!!! 😂
Broly's probably going to get another form you know? are you caught up on super? he's training with goku and vegeta, his great ape infused super saiyan (full power super saiyan or something) is not going to be his main form
@@theonetruefusion8533bro just an idea cause when you say great ape induced super saiyan…..I mean we could easily get super saiyan 4 if they delved into that just saiyan 😂
@@randomDLo super saiyan 4?
besides, considering broly can use his great ape power in base probably because he has no power, he could mix it in with his super saiyan, he just accidentally did it mid fight
R.I.P TORIYAMA-SENSEI
Yes😢
BROOOO THAT OUTRO SONG BROUGHT BACK MEMORIESSS. SONICCCCC. THE NOSTALGIAAAAA
The real reason why sjb couldn't replace sj as the defacto transformation, is that it failed to have the same impact. And no, impact doesn't just mean the initial introduction to the form (although it helps), or the amount of battles against main villains won (although it helps, a lot).
It has more to do with the fact that DBZ had some low budget gems of animation dedicated to sj for what should have always been just a mainstream shonen. Dragon Ball was never conceived with 12-24 episodes in mind, so asking for peak 90's shonen animation was too much, but when we think of sj, we remember only the highlights in animation, even though 95% of it was actually pretty bad.
But we had some highlights of sj throughout the series and that's what counts. sjb has only had a couple of animation highlights during ToP and that's it. It wasn't consistent, it wasn't long and it never shone at an important time. So we always were more pumped whenever regular sj showed.
That's the excuse for sjb, and that's why it constantly had to be improved upon and ultimately replaced by mng. But every other form had another problem, which is that super's manga is monthly, so that is x4.33 times less manga. So when you have a saga with a main villain that should've introduced at least a couple more forms in Z in the span of a year (52 chapters), you have just as many new forms in just 12 chapters.
I only see that as an issue for Goku and Vegeta though. Give everyone something, please. The manga isn't called "The Adventures of Goku and Vegeta". Super has done a decent job of making everyone relevant again, which is something that hadn't been seen to that extent since the saiyan saga in Z. But it's not enough. Everyone is having more moments, that's just great and Gohan and Piccolo have finally become interesting alternatives, paving the way to end of Z's Goku decision to leave Earth in capable hands (for the second time, but now for real).
And on that note, all of these had to be achieved in just 4 years (3 so far) of story, because end of Z happens 4 years into Super. So saying Dragon Ball Z got 7 transformations in the span of 13 years of story and Super got 14 in just 4 years cannot be used as an argument. It is valid argument, it's just not a good enough one.
Not sorry for the long comment.
Ngl despite all the issues with the show, I still like Dragon Ball Super. Especially Lord Berry’s, in my humble opinion I think he was one of the best characters in the entire series, he’s definitely of favorite character out of all of them. And as for Goku’s SSJG and SSJB forms.. I feel like the release time between the both of them should have been further apart like by at least 1 one year.
"Lord berry" 🤣
darn autocorrect@@Sole_x_animations
You are right and thank you for explaining that because I had similar thoughts about the transformations too.
Interesting video, I like your takes and agree we should spend more time with each transformation.
I thought the way the manga explored ultra instinct was great but not enough. I like seeing the power evolve into a higher grade, learning the pros and cons of a transformation and how it can be improved upon.
On a side note, at least ultra ego feels right for Vegeta, but the writer really needs to choose if Vegeta as a character needs to go past his ego to reach new heights (ultra instinct?), or fully accept his ego and go on his own path of power.
Remember, the average screen can show up to 16 million colors, we have room for a few more transformations
The human eye can only make out like 300
@@SCHMALLZZZ the fuck? “The visible spectrum for humans falls between ultraviolet light and infrared light. Scientists estimate that humans can distinguish up to 10 million colors”
@@SCHMALLZZZ that's enough for like 2 arc's
there gonna be a super saiyan for each color in the rainbow frfr
I personally think they should have explored the concept of god ki and SSG a lot more, the same way they did with super saiyan.
For example, there was a reason why super saiyan always felt grounded and down to earth before the buu saga. We understood how it worked. You needed a surge of emotion to unlock it, and most of the time, that surge came in the form of rage. After that, a saiyan would learn how to control their rage to activate the form at will, and control it much better. You can see how much control helps when you look at how Goku beat Trunks with a single finger. Then you get all the grades and how each grade has both upsides and downsides, until you get to grade 4 which is essentially ultimate control over super saiyan.
They could have done something like this with super saiyan god. A route of calmness and tranquility, that not only allowed them to tap into god ki at will, but would eventually lead them down the route of ultra instinct.
Maybe give us a God of a Creation sort of awakening. or have some of the non-saiyans seek out a path to god hood now that they know it's possible so that other characters are useful.
Goku and Vegeta both obtained god ki as part of their being, after simply absorbing the divine energy. And characters can give energy gifts to each other all the time. Is it unreasonable for Goku to just have Krillen drain all his energy to zero and have Goku gift him god ki, even if just to experiment if it would work. or to try to copy the ritual for the others, it wasn't really even all that hard for Goku to transform the first time, get five people to stand in a circle and think good thoughts, why not repeat that for Gohan or any one else? For Super being so focused on the gods, and mortals reaching their level, why only Goku and Vegeta>?
Future Trunks got robbed of his Super Human God form of just it being super saiyan but with a spirit-bomb sword. I would have liked to see some potential for non saiyans (even if he's half) to get something to achieve or reach for.
3:50-3:52 It’s always made sense in my head that the more powerful a saiyan is when they create a child, the more powerful and capable they’ll be at birth. By the time Gohan was born Goku was already the strongest on Earth (plus Gohan grew up in Battle), while by the time Goten and Trunks were born both Goku and Vegeta had already basically mastered Super Saiyan 1. It just makes sense that genetically speaking they’d already be born more powerful than natural
This is a great video and I couldn't agree more.
Its so annoying just how close a lot of these forms get to being really good. Dragon ball forms now need to be unique to stand out from the rest, and have a reason to exist. Super never quite hits both at the same time and it’s so frustrating.
God - needs a ritual to get to, which clashes with Goku’s character, which is great. Makes the form unique by using God Ki which is great. But then God Ki never gets any depth, and Goku has regular ki in God form…for some reason. The manga and ToP anime try to make it a little bit more unique, but it is too little too late
Blue - Anime gives it perfect Ki control, which a few times becomes relavent, but for the most part becomes a non factor. God + Super Saiyan is also enough to warrent its’ existance. Manga does it a lot better, with Perfected SSB being one of the coolest parts of Super and really sells the concept. But it overstays its’ welcome and gets boring in both by not keeping up with these concepts
UI - the transformation itself doesn’t make any sense, but it honestly doesn’t matter because the focus is on the technique itself. The imperfected UI is actually a lot cooler because the lack of perfect movement makes the perfect movement noticable. When every attack is supposed to be natural in Mastered UI, it stops feeling that way (just compare MUI Goku vs Jiren and Goku vs Frieza and point out what the difference is).
Ultra Ego - By far best transformation in Super, finally connects Vegeta to Beerus (the whole premise of Super), great gimmic, ties into his character arc perfectly
Beast Gohan - worst transformation in Super. No explaination on it, no interesting gimmic with it (the manga already turned the anger of it into a joke), it’s just bland
Also didn’t mention all the super gimmicy transformations like Rosé, Blue Evolution, and Trunks’ but honestly all of them are such blatant gimmics that impact nothing that they are not worth going any deeper with
The rapidness of the new forms is literally just to sell merch. That’s why they’re just palette swaps. It’s simple, change the hair color from yellow to blue to silver. And fans eat that shit up.
Super Saiyan 3 I believe to be the only exception to the form problem, because Goku says the form is stupid and doesn't like using it because how draining it is, when he has other options. Goten and Trunks using it while fused makes sense, because the Fusion is a short term thing to begin with and they want to maximize their power output to the maximum during it.
Great topic. I liked the vid.
For my own thoughts, I would take the problem you brought up here a step further. The problem started in early DBZ when characters were mostly judged by simply their power levels - this threw out the window other advancements a player can go through such as learning new techniques. To the end of the Cell saga and somewhat into the Buu saga, this problem was handled well enough I thought - what with new techniques still playing a vital role (instant transmission, time freeze etc). But the simple focus on power levers which DBZ handled well enough, was completely mishandled in Super - which is why SSG (red) and SSJ3 are useless. One could say the same about SSJ1 in the Cell saga, that it is useless, but again individual technique still played a role and as you said the transformations in DBZ were handled over a longer time and so seemed well earnt and fleshed out nicely to the audience.
What I think they should have done with Super is stop the idea of transformations = only a power boost, but instead transformation = some power difference but mostly technique differences. So - SSJ3 is great for ki attacks but not for stamina nor longevity. SSG (red) better for hand to hand combat but in straight up ki against SSJ3 is at a disadvantage. SSGB (blue) offers a slight power boost over SSG red but more a match for SSJ3 for ki. UI is super fast but against a well trained SSGB still has to be careful. Even SSJ2 could still be useful as a well trained SSJ2 is just the best allrounder of ki, hand to hand, stamina, stamina regain and so on, but is the weakest. That way all forms feel useful and I think it would be awesome to see a character switch between the transformations in a battle depending on how the battle was going and the strengths of the opponent. Combine this with techniques and would make for some awesome variety in battles I think.
They kind of had something with super saiyan 3. The focus of the arc could have been how to prolong the transformation. In the cell saga, the problem of achieving super saiyan 2 was overcome when Goku taught Gohan how to *naturally* sustain super saiyan form. The buu saga could have somehow spent more time with the development of super saiyan 3. The weakness was never overcome.
That's actually a great idea! If SSJ3 was actually given development, we wouldn't have needed all the other random power ups like the 2 fusion methods and ultimate gohan. Granted, those are still cool, but they wouldn't have been necessary if SSJ3 was handled better as a climatic form.
Ty Toriyama
What were the background songs used throughout the video??
W vid my brother
Idc what nobody say, ssj 4, ssj god and ultra instinct is my favorite transformation to come out of db.
No weight, no power behind, nothing
I have to agree.
The new forms in Super feel more like hand-outs, compared to the train and push the body to the limit/get put in a life or death situation.
The latter is always the better option, especially when you consider how new levels of power are achieved from the effort.
I do like the Ultra Instinct form, and I also like Kale's Berserker form, since it plays into her early depiction in the Tournament of Power, so I kind of want to see how her form works once she learns to control it.
So glad u make this video bro, i LOVE dbz but it does have its flaws and when i say what u say in this video they think i’m crazy lol
I'm someone who eats all the new transformations in any shows but for me they need to be actual transformation that give them something and not just blatant recolors. I'm sick and tired of these disco rainbow hair colors, they have run out of colors to give now so what next? Super saiyan rgb lights?
One thing i love about SSJ4 is that it has first of an unique look, the hair is longer and stays black, there is a tail and half of his body is covered in fur. Second the meaning behind it, i love how they went back to the saiyans history with the great ape and used that as a base as a sort of controlled form and how it was reached by having pan remind an out of control giant ape what he is actually fighting for and the way goku reached towards earth like he was homesick. Just beautifully done. Now super transformation are all the same, got his ass beaten and out of wazoo dyed his hair, well ss god as a bit unique as in he needed 4 saiyans but ehh that was reather anti climatic compared to every transformation before
they still got Orange.
@@ghoulchan7525 Orange Pickle
@@inferstrike3544 ah crap. Yeah.
Though it's not been used as a color for a Saiyan transformation so it's still unused.
@@ghoulchan7525 Yep, I hope we get Super saiyan Orange Pickle soon.
So don't like god and blue but like ssj2 wich changes almost nothing and 3 wich makes eyebrows disappear out of nothing and just grow hair? Also, there's no toriyama style in ssj4, an over complicated form in it's design. God, blue and ui are more similar to the og super saiyans and to toriyama's simplistic style
Quick correction. Not anyone can learn the Kaiken. It takes a special individual to learn it
@@r-o-k He's not kidding, not everyone can learn kaioken
In one year, Yamucha, Kurilin, and Tenshinhan got to Raditz's level, something Gokū couldn't do in eight years. Yamucha spent 130 days with Kai'ō-sama. Tenshinhan and Chaozu spent 260. What's Toriyama's excuse for not giving them the technique?
Goku wasn't even as strong as Raditz by the time he learned kaioken. The humans and Piccolo were already beyond Raditz by the time they died in the saiyan saga, so they should easily have been able to handle at least kaioken x2. Also, aren't the strongest humans in the world special individuals for being able to keep up with elite saiyan warriors, who were some of the strongest beings in the universe (at this point in the story before other characters were introduced)?
I believe the reason why they are giving all of the characters these giant buffs is because there's gonna be a way bigger threat in the future
I definitely agree with your idea about letting the characters have more time to improve their transformations. Why not give them a form, and let them evolve in it? Don’t need to give them another form just for a power boost. This happens with ui in the manga, there’s many progressions with the transformation, though it felt like it all happened too fast.
I wont lie my by biggest problem with Super Sayain is how unearned it made so many fights feel. Like think about Jiren for example. If Jiren had a power boost like Super Sayain then Goku would never have won, he wouldn't have even gotten far enough to unlock UI but even if he did he wouldn't win the fight. And I wont lie, it kinda annoys me when I see Goku and Vegeta training day in and day out, relentlessly, but they still can't compete with quite a few characters without relying on transformations. It also comes down, to me not being able to mentally picture how a lot of those characters got so strong, I mean even in the manga they have to introduce alternative methods for characters to become powerful, like using the dragon balls, or absorbing planets.
As an edit, I don't dislike the transformations entirely, I just hate the fact that if you want to beat Goku you have to be like 500x stronger to be on par when he's transformed. I actually really liked Super Sayain 1 and also Super Sayain God (But personally I don't see the need to link the god form to Sayains).
Jiren gets a power boost when he gets naked
@@FazeRustyNuts Everyone does, if someone attacks you get naked, I'm sure it throw them off.
I completely agree on your point about the god forms not being linked to saiyans. Saiyans as a species are already overpowered enough compared to Namekians, Androids, or especially humans. Making the pinnacle of divine power in the dragon ball multiverse a race exclusive thing is ridiculous. The only way I could see that working is if it was angel exclusive, since they're designed to be completely overpowered, to the point its a divine law that they can't go all out or else they get erased. Granted other races have ways of getting stronger, but Saiyans have unique access to divine forms exclusive to their race. SSG and SSB are saiyan forms that use god ki, but no other species in dragon ball has a race specific god ki form. I guess it's gotten better with more powerful forms and abilties for other races in some respects. Namekians can gain more power from the dragon balls than other races with a little extra, androids are consistently shown to be able to be created and improved beyond power thought possible at any given time, and, (while seemingly mutant exclusive,) the frieza race can achieve higher forms that can rival the gods.
Well this video was a big nothing sandwich
You gonna eat that?
I like the idea of having forms that are more of a side grade than a straight upgrade. Like making them more situational with different strengths and weaknesses
One easy fix to God forms was to make them have specific abilities and not relay them to just being power multipliers. Like how in the movie Goku survived a piercing strike from Beerus by seemingly regenerating with SSG.
The way this could’ve been handled down the road with Blue would be to make the opposite and finally be able to deal with character that can regenerate or something to do with blocking an opponent’s ki control like how the form is constantly boasted about from having « superior » ki control.
Overall all transformations could be useful and not be written into a corner if they weren’t tied to a drama timer and made unique on their own rights.
Its called Super Sayjan Blue.
Super Sayjan God Super Sayjan is literally a gag term. A joke. Going super sayjan while being a God is the path on how to get super sayjan blue, but that makes it not its name. I repeat, in the manga the term "super sayjan god super sayjan" is a term used as a joke. In the same scene they settled on calling it "Super Sayjan Blue", its true name. Throughout the anime its also only called "Blue" or "Super Sayjan Blue"
What? SSGSS is just what it is. SSj blue is just shorter
@@viciousv5395 No, ppl act like the forms actual name is super sayjan god super sayjan, while the primary main canon name for the form is super sayjan blue
@@dazedd-fi4yxliterally everyone and thier mother calls it super saiyan blue or SSGSS. It doesn't make a difference.
@@nobunaga4720 again, ssgss is a joke term
@@dazedd-fi4yx It doesn't matter wether you think its a joke term or not. Is someone going to die if they say it? Your being a hardass over smth completely irrelevant.
I feel like if SSJ4 is reintroduced into Super, it should be exclusive to Broly and be his final form. It just makes sense as Broly has the most “Saiyan” transformations amongst the main cast.
I think one of the main problems is a lack of narrative cohesion, while SSJ1 - 3 & God are justified within the narrative and often a crucial part of the story forms like super saiyan blue, rage, evolution, etc simply do not and show up out of nowhere. The only form in dragon ball super with any form of build up or narrative focus is ultra instinct - After goku uses it the arc is focused on how goku can obtain that power again and even though they're exclusively in super's version of BOG & Ressurection F there are scenes that foreshadow ultra instinct ( in episode 5 goku's body instinctually reacts to beerus , in the whis training arc whis describes how the end goal for goku should be to have his body move without thinking. ) however the story never really puts enthasis on it as goku randomly re-unlocks the form whenever it's time for a cool fight scene.
The manga is a lot better at introducing new forms at least since it will foreshadow, build up to and give a narrative justification for the new form to be achieved rather than super where the characters just get angry and pull a new one out of their ass even if the new forms are goofy aah like ultra ego ( literally just smash bros ) or true UI ( defeats the purpose of the technique )
Too soon man.
Also, probably agreed with most of your points, until you mentioned that Orange Piccolo was just way too much. It's one of the most inspired (aside from Frieza's), cool (aside from super saiyan) and long time coming (because my boy had only had great namekian for 30 years) transformations in the series.
I'm not sure why the humans didn't learn kaio ken. There could have been a lore reason why humans are much better suited to using kaio ken than saiyans allowing them to get higher multipliers. Still SSJG is my favorite form in the series. I didn't like it being replaced so quickly. In fact I think that SSJB should have been an alternative form. Two sides of the same coin. SSJG being the more defensive and tanky form while SSJB has lower defensive abilities but is more offensive oriented. Would have been cool to have seen a transformation that has two sides that they must balance.
Because the humans were forgot about long ago. They are basically furniture at this point. It's just the Goku and Vegeta show
Goku is a very special case
the kiyoken thing is really simple and explained in anime first humun dont know how to use ki secont who is teaching them kayoken 3 and last theyir body cant handle it like thats why goku had to train for it even then he could not use it for long time. i guess dbz fans really dont watch dbz
@@obito4168 There's a reason why Goku is the only person in history to have it, even king kai himself hasn't mastered it
@@obito4168 I think you need to work on your english. Also there is no reason why the humans didn't learn kaio ken other than King Kai not teaching them when they were on his planet. Yes it does put strain on the body but that would only limit the multiplier they can use
So we not gonna talk about SSJ4? The disrespect is insane since that was a solution in it of itself.
Had a conversation about this where the answer I reached was God Ki shouldn't have been used for new forms but instead as the ammunition for unique abilities (God abilities of you will) things like the Winnie the pooh guy who teleports any force that hits him, or Hit and all his time shenanigans. Just make it that God abilities cannot be blocked by normal ki and every fight in super gets increasingly more interesting.
Could you please post the links to the 3 PNGs used at 6:54?
Here comes an controversial but correct opinion…
They never should’ve created Blue.
It should have been just Super Saiyan God, to introduce the concept of "God Ki," followed by Ultra Instinct. Also, if UI was less of a "transformation" and more just being "in the zone" like Black Flash in JJK I think it would have been cooler.
haters gon' hate
Coper gonna cope
Skaters gonna sk8
i really liked this and agree with what you said about ssb. it was introduced way too fast and there was basically no more screentime of ssg besides it being in the movie and shown that one time. i feel like a build up to ssb wouldve been better and focusing on ssg more, gauging its strength and weaknesses would also have been better. it's also why I like ssg more than ssb, it just looked and sounded majestic. love the video brother!
In my opinion. SSG should have been the standard transformation going into DBS. With SSGSS being a powerup that came during a critical moment in the story. Then we could have also gotten SSGSSxKK and SSBE, each with their own wins to show off their power. I would have saved UI and UE entirely into the Moro arc which would have increased the time where each transformation was relevant.
Toriyama just died and you guys are finding problems in the dragon ball super form
Ikr , it’s distasteful
Not attacking him personally. These problems have existed for a long time already.
I normally don't respond to these kind of comments, but first of all the video was made before his passing. I have expressed NUMEROUS times on this channel that I love Dragon Ball and have for years. I also have expressed that I love Akira Toriyama as a writer. What I discussed in this video is my personal opinion about forms in a series that he was not as heavily involved in. We all reserve the right to discuss the series how we see fit. Toriyama wrote a legendary story and shared it with the world, and with that comes some positive opinions and some negative opinions. NO ONE is perfect. I truly hope you have a great day.
@@ItsBigTune Tell em bigtune
Lmao what
I personally think it makes sense. Goku is based on Sun Wukong, the many form=72 transformations, mui=enlightenment.
I thought the same thing. I agree 100 percent with the video. It seems like transformations don’t mean much in super. The one thing I liked about GT was super saiyan 4 which was the only transformation from saiyans and they had to learn how to use that form.
I think another reason for the quick transformations in super is the fact that Goku and vegeta has special training from whis and beerus which in DBZ vegeta never had someone training him. Which may explain Gokus power ups. He had king Kai to train him.
Unpopular opinion: I think the transformations make sense, because with the introduction of the gods, Super Sayain 2 and 3, for example, are simply no longer sufficient for the new threats.
Personally, I'm hype about it, and I'm happy with it. Of course nothing's perfect, for example the power scales are sometimes strange, but overall it's cool, and I really like the ultra instinct.
RIP Akira Toriyama
I think right now they're handling the forms well. We have forms that make multiple characters relevant and we're emphasizing different ways of using the forms with UI, and everyone is kinda just getting better at doing what they're doing. It was a bit retcon oriented with the granola arc, but I think we're in a good spot.
Odd facts abt These forms;
- SSJ Rose (Anime-Only) is Black's SSJ1, meaning DB Heroes's Super Saiyan Rose 3 is technically canon?
- SSJ Blue Shinka (Vegeta dark Blue form in the Tournament), is supposed to be the SSJ Grade 2-3, but for Blue. Some people thought it was SSJ2 Blue, so i'm clearing that out.
As a throwback he even did the Super Vegeta pose and did a Final Flash during this form like the Cell Saga.
Ultra instinct has been hinted at even early on, once when goku fought beerus, and again when whis was training goku and Vegeta, goku has been training and training to get to ultra instinct for all of super
One power scale factor you are missing is that the more pure a saiyan heart the more strenght potential they have,
Each transformation up to the end of the Cell saga had meaning, effort and ordeals associated with it. After that, they felt like "show business" as Old Kai described it. Which is why "Mystic Gohan" (or Pure Gohan, as I call him) is supposed to be a return to simplicity.
I never understood why super saiyan 3 wasn’t mastered like ssj2
I honesty don’t like transformations. He fewer the better. I’d have been much more happier if it was just regular ssj 1&2 and the characters got stronger within their forms & the story focused around meaningful reasons for fights rather than fights being there to facilitate a transformation. It’s become a crutch. But it’s too late now. It is what it is.
One thing I hope they expand on with gohan is that it’s essentially similar to Broly’s power - he’s still using mystic, but is channeling that saiyan ape transformation as well
I think something that could've made the exessive amount of forms make sense is to give each one their own unique strength.
For example, Super Saiyan god would act as a base for those god level transformations. Its a straight up power boost that has a well rounded set of abilities. Then there could be different versions of super saiyan god that amplify specifc aspects of goku/Vegeta's abilities while weakening others. Meaning they would need to pick the right form depending on the situation.
And for something like SSB, it could require intense focus and tranquility to maintain. (Kind of like how instant transmission requires focus to do)
So it could create an intresting dynamic where goku/vegeta would need to control themselves very carefully or else they could get distracted and lose the form.
perfected SSB in the manga requires this kind of intense focus or else the ki explodes within the body and the user dies, but that doesn't really deny your idea its validity.
Totally agree, it's like they never give the forms room to breathe before inducing a new one. Also does anyone else think it is odd we are still getting dragon Ball z games and not branded dragon ball super games?
I feel like the issue with the new transformations is that, besides the ultra instinct, there are no way to tell how each new level is more powerful than the previous one, except in context of the other transformation not being enough to beat the villain in turn.
Character specific transformations with CLEAR rules and definitions that reflect the character in some way is the way to go
what is kakarot gonna do when he is clapped while in master ultra instinct?
unlock super ultra instinct?
I think something that could help is if they were more clear as to the weaknesses or specializations to each form.
Ssjg deserves more love it’s one of the best forms in anime and dragon ball super
6:30 I absolutely loved national Park theme from Pokemon gold growing up
I personally think that every new form shown other than ssjb and ssgss is like a way to spice up the anime.
Showing the characters choosing a new path for power in their own way sounds interesting
that's just my perspective tho
One thing super has done well is elevate base forms. Krillin, 17, Roshi, etc can all hang in unchanging forms just through training
They need to go back and somehow introduce different uses for the DBS forms besides just pure power increases. The manga did have the "God to Blue switch" with SSG have much less Ki drain than Blue, but something more than that inherent to the forms themselves would be cool.
Like SSG being faster than Blue despite being a bit weaker, or being more compatible with Ultra Instinct than Blue or even the normal Super Saiyan forms are due to God being more focused on calmness than rage.
If you ask me, would have been better of Vegeta regrew his tail and mastered the base Super Saiyan forms, then unlocked 4. Let Goku have the God forms and have Vegeta go down the route of a pure Saiyan.
Bro got that Scall Ad Callum music in the back
I think you forget that they were in uncharted territory with the super saiyan form where they had to learn how to use it on their own where as with the newer forms, they have help from whis plus the mixture of knowledge obtained from what they learned about the super saiyan form. An example of this is how SS Blue is a mix of super saiyan and god Kai. Whis had a direct hand in teaching goku ultra instinct
What's the background music on the ultra instinct part?
Did you ever find it?
@@phantomboi5673Nope :,(
Give the characters more movesets and techniques with each transformation to make it stand out. Some techniques can only be used during certain transformations
I feel like super saiyan blue version that goku and vegeta shouldn’t be the mastered version but they work into mastering it. Which would have different benefits/negative (for each different form)
DB Super (both manga and anime) had some really great moments where both Goku and Vegeta used strategy and their experience as warriors and martial artists to overcome their adversaries, and that made me hopeful that the rest of the series will take more time with how they introduce us in to another level up.
During the U6 vs U7 tournament, we saw Vegeta loosing to Hit in his SSB because he powered up to SSB twice in quick succession, so he couldn't draw out the form's full potential anymore, so Goku knew he'd have to figure out his opponent and fight him in 'base' SSG to preserve his stamina, before goin all out. That was sweet.
Likewise Vegeta tricked Zamasu on one occasion, fighting him in SSG, switching into SSB in a flash only whenever he needed to land blows. Again, strategizing, careful planning based on the experience of a seasoned warrior who knows their limits. Much like!
I really liked most of the Moro's arc.
For me, it was at the tail end of this arc where the writing took a direction that was too wild and too many ass-pull forms and techniques started to pop for everyone to the point where I honestly can't tell who and why can or can't use which form anymore.
Vegeta attained a new form that is closer to the god of destruction, but he makes some very uncharacteristic of him mistakes and looses because "he's not worthy".
Meanwhile, Goku masters UI, but it's "not good enough" cuz he needs emotions, so sign (omen..?) is now the real deal, because he can be smug again while he fights.
Don't even get me started on Gohan's "beast" thing, because it's such an obvious memberberrie wannabe power up that it's just sad to watch.
And Piccolo, rather than doing something smart just asks Shenron for help and "get's a little extra" sounds more like his pusher was having a good day, rather that something earned too.
Ultra instinct is my biggest problem going forward. What else would he ever use other than ui going forward? Theoretically ui is just a state of mind, and can be used with any transformation, but in the anime its its own transformation.
Will say this, the idea of Saiyans creating a spiritual ritual that uses their souls pushed beyond its limits through the super saiyan form then harnessing that energy into a person - SSJ God
And being able to push that energy into this calm yet aggressive blue flame of spiritual God ki - SSJ Blue
Then essentially becoming so enlightened and spiritually focused that your essence leaves your body, becoming tendrils that sense the world around you while your body becomes a quiet machine that only runs on instinct - Ultra instinct
With the reverse being allowing your soul to bend and break, causing it to lash out and thrash making your body become weapon fueled by the violence and darkness that pain creates - Ultra Ego
Are pretty interesting, I even enjoy the idea that the dark rage Gohan always had locked away inside only taping into it here and there, only truly being able to not only pull it out but command it when his child’s life was on the line, really showing that parent child connection that DB likes to touch on, is powerful story telling in my book…though I think golden Frieza is a bit questionable lol
I suppose I would like if the some of the forms cost something. Like SS3 was supposed to when it was introduced, as Goku was going to burn through all his time on Earth. I think it would be cool, for instance, if a character died as a consequence of using SS3, so it CAN be done but at great risk, and characters come back all the time but it could be dramatic and add some tension.
The manga pretty much treated the forms better. They managed to make ssg able to have more time and strategies to defeat the antagonist (like ss4). They also treat blue quite better than the anime, making it seem goku was going to go all out. The black arc was definetly popular when it comes to the manga because the strategy both goku and vegeta used against the antagonist
325 chapters = 325 weeks.
102 chapters = 102 x 4 to match up to the real life time passed = 408 weeks
While 14 saiyan transformation, there are some footnotes to keep in mind:
- 2 opponents were saiyans themselves that weren't part of the heroes that got part of these new forms. To just look at new saiyan forms instead of heros to villain ratio seems inappropiate when considering the change of opponents being saiyans themselves now which is new and previous comparison being made with hero vs villain new forms ratio in mind to justify new saiyan transformations
- If you look at the weeks passed for each manga, you could argue that there has been enough time per each new hero transformation/level up since the new forms spread out over the real life time passed time is pretty much the same in Super as it is in Z, with Super now being ahead in form count due to lasting for 83 weeks longer, a timeframe, if applied on Z would've probably resulted in the same amount of new forms/level-ups as it did now for Super. Though one could argue over what's most impactful and important for a new transformation: real life time passed or amount of chapters passed, i could see both having its importance, though ideally more chapters for binge readings / when not following the story month by month probably.
- Different growth paths undertaken by the saiyans. A stray away from Z where saiyans largely tried copying each other
That all said, i'm not necessarily disagreeing w the video. I just felt like the way the comparison in forms between Z and Super was laid out seemed a bit misleading and could use more nuance
My problem is that there was a struggle and mountain to climb to finally reach peak to ssj1, 2, but in Super, there's so many and so fast and they barely matter and everything feels so insignificant when they get a new transformstion and there's a sudden copout for a power creep to get a new transformation to beat the antagonist
I always seen the kaioken as more of a temporary state or technique. Since its used to amplify energy and not a full transformation like SS staying in that untill he decides to turn it off.
It would've been so vool to see the depts of ssg. The healing factor / god bind? / absorption of energy. Instead of giving blue, they should've given ssg properties that are unique to that form alone. Making the characters hone those properties/techniques.
Ssj3 was annoying to animate and the new ssj forms were simply to make more money in merch. It's all business. Toriyama was always ready to accomadate these business requirements in his stories. He was so legendary that he able to make the fans all happy while making everyone involved very rich. Now that he is gone, db is Sadly just a cash machine to milk us fans dry for the rest of our lives. 😢