I think a major issue left unaddressed in this video is that villains in Super don’t have any major side villains that service the main antagonist of the arcs. For example in Z, Vegeta had Raditz and Nappa. Frieza had Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, and the Ginyu force. Cell had Android’s #19, #20, #17, and #18. Buu had Babidi, Dabura, as well as Babidi’s minions. Each side villain not only acts as an obstacle for the protagonists, but also to further develop the main antagonist. Raditz acts as an almost insurmountable obstacle for the heroes in the beginning, and then reveals that the other saiyans are FAR more powerful than him, creating a sense of worry and dread. Nappa then inspires much fear in the heroes as well as the audience, before revealing that Vegeta is not only stronger than him, but also more merciless and terrifying. Cui showcases how far Vegeta has come, showing how he can instantly defeat someone who was at his level only a short time prior. Dodoria further’s frieza’s character by telling how he destroyed planet Vegeta. Zarbon furthers Frieza’s character by introducing transformations. The ginyu force operates for Frieza much the same as how Nappa did for Vegeta. Android #19 doesn’t help Cell a ton, but Android #20 serves as Cell’s creator, and foreshadows Cell’s sneakiness and skills of evasion. Androids #17 and #18 not only serve as Cell’s goal, but demonstrate how fearsome cell is. If the Androids were powerful and scary enough to lay waste to the future timeline, and Cell was supposed to be even worse, then he must be absolutely horrifying. Buu kinda serves as the opposite as previous villains. Buu isn’t a mastermind or a leader, he’s a timebomb that no one is capable of controlling. Dabura tries to subjugate Buu to Babidi’s will and is immediately destroyed by him. Babidi, who gladly allows his minions to die, is killed by Buu, which lets the monster be able to do anything he wants. These all show how scary and unpredictable Buu is, and how he’s unstoppable by both physical and mental means. Now as for Super Villains, Beerus is unstoppable from the get go and his only partner is Whis, who is generally a pacifist. Frieza returns and only really has the Frieza force, who are largely without any personality. Hit has no personal connection to the rest of the universe 6 group. Goku Black and Zamasu are the same people and are there from the beginning of the arc to the end, so no side villains. Jiren has a connection to Toppo, but really no one else. However, aside from power, no one else is able to further Jiren’s own character aside from the fact he doesn’t really care about his friends. Broly has Paragus with the father-son connection, and it’s honestly the best characterization of an “antagonist” in all of super. Paragus is abusive and harsh, but it’s shown how much Broly loves him in his own way. Moro has the Moro corps but they got like no characterization to them. Granolah has nothing to him, and Gas has the rest of the Heeter family, but they’re non combative and don’t really offer much. Cell Max is completely mindless and the rest of the villains of the super hero arc don’t have any personal connection to him.
Did you even read the Granolah arc!? Granolah was a complicated antagonist who almost lost himself to his anger! Instead of complaining about lack of villain why not appreciate how well written granolah is?
Dude I normally don't read these long essays. But what you said is true to the book. There are no side villains there to emphasize how dangerous the main villains are. I mean even we know frieza is dangerous but there's no deep description how bad his gold form is in the beginning and beerus being strong at the start is like introducing cell final form and him having the cell games immediately. There's no build up. No growth that slowly draws towards this big climax. I mean if goku black had maybe 3 henchmen who serve under him to destroy the planet and goku and vegeta need to work hard to beat them in order to grow towards fighting goku black and zamasu. That would be nice. For me the only super arc I enjoyed was the Moro arc. There was a steady growth and build up and as he retained his youth, there was a bit of fear to this. You knew after he left namek that we were truly in danger and needed more help. But yea. There needs to be growth and slow push to the main villain
A member of the frieza force helped him to improve leaps and bounds ahead of where he was before in terms of power and we can't forget the other member who literally brought him back to life. Granolah had monaito who served as his guardian and part of his moral compass. Gas brother was an abusive person who used him for selfish reasons. The character and his relations are right in front of us.
Good villains started in Dragonball King Piccolo is a OG I feel bad for people who do not start at the start of the story you miss out on so much and have a better understanding of everything.
Its the typical shonen problem. Once the characters have done all they need to, the villains can't challenge the characters in any way beyond just using strength. So the show becomes a monster of the week type deal. Frieza was able psychologically compete with Vegeta because of their past. And he was able to compete with Goku because all the morals and lessons Goku learned in the past were actually completely nullified by frieza. Relying on friends? Useless. A fighter can become an elite if he trains hard enough? Hahahaha. Anyone can be a teacher? Goku used all his techniques and none of them worked. Cell had less interactions with the characters but the android's strength forced Vegeta and Trunks into a psychological corner. Buu? Is a monster of the week but Vegeta and Gohan had their development Super's villains are just "Im strong, get stronger so you can beat me"
But why lie like that ? Granola is literally the same as old Vegeta making their fight let us notice that and Jiren directly contradicts Goku’s way of strength. He believes strength from one’s self is Absolute. That’s why Jiren acknowledges Vegeta first before Goku because he never relied on others. Jirens philosophy of strength is shown well. So you saying Super Villans are just “ I’m strong , get stronger so you can beat me” is a lie .
@@kaienglish271 That's like saying Beerus believes the earth should be destroyed and Goku doesnt in the BoG arc. The fight happens, the villain leaves, the main characters are exactly the same as they were before the saga happened except they're stronger now. Contrast this with the cell Saga where Gohan started as a kid that happened with odd jobs and ended as earth's protector. Jiren's way of strength was different to Goku's but Goku didn't care. Goku probably doesn't even know. At the end of the day the only thing about Jiren that caused Goku trouble was his strength. And Granola??? Meh, haven't read it really.
@@thedead073 But that’s not the case. Goku and the rest of the show acknowledge his way of strength. They mention trust a lot in the TOP. Just because it doesn’t force Goku to change like it did in the Namek saga or Cell saga doesn’t mean it’s not important. The Super villains are completely opposite to Z villains. The Suoer Villans actually have Vaild reasons to do the actions or have the beliefs that they do for example Zamasu/ Goku Black his point of View is not wrong from the position he was in.
Granolah had vegeta reflect on his past and relate to him on some level and brought forward his self destructive tendencies, which was the very thing whis taught him to avoid. It got to the point that even goku called him out. Rof arc is actually a bit different because the roles were reversed. While goku was the one being challenged mentally in z, frieza was challenged in this arc. He was used to being the strongest but then goku came along and beat him. He came back with enhancements and still lost to another saiyan. This arc had him change his mentality by actually training his body to surpass his foil. But his flaw still prevailed (once he got stronger, he never trained the form). And then he learns from this as reflected not just in the top but granolah arc as well. The point you brought up about relying on friends confuses me. Do you mean that even with friends, goku couldn't stand up to frieza? Because the minute goku stepped into the battlefield, he told everyone to leave. And then there's the fact that he did rely on piccolo to stall and it helped him gather energy.
@thedead073 jiren is a foil to goku that nobody else in this series could ever be. Jiren is pretty much the ideal of how goku wanted to achieve his strength. But later in the ToP he realizes that's not the way to go and relied on his friends instead. Jiren may not be the most well written character backstory wise but in terms of being a foil to goku there's no other who can rival that.
@IHonestlyDontGAF I agree with you to a degree. But Super has been going on for almost a decade now. The fact that there have only been 2 villains is too far in the opposite direction.
You guys do not have to read super you know! Toyotaro is trying so hard and yet you "fans" continue 2 whine. Also no villains? WTF do you call the heaters or did you all ignored that just to justify your flimsy complaint?!
The main issue with Super Villains is that there are only 3-4 original DBS villains who are actually villains and not just anti-heroes. Hit, Beerus, Jirin, Granolah, Broly, Gamma 1, and Gamma 2 were just misunderstood anti heroes who all end up becoming good. Frieza is just a carried over villain from Z. The only true DBS original villains are Goku Black/Zamasu, Moro, Gas, and Cell Max (Two of which haven’t even been animated yet). Goku Black, Moro, and Zamasu all function incredibly well as villains and I personally think that they all fit in perfectly with the Z villains. But Gas and Cell Max are very hollow attempts at being true villains, as yes they are evil, Cell Max is just a mindless beast while Gas is just mistreated.
I also would like to add for Gas and Cell Max is that they were both ponds for their true main villains in their respective stories. Elec being the true main villain of the Granolah the Survivor saga, and Magenta being the main villain of the Superhero saga.
The problem is, DBZ is story written, story always came first fights and transformations came second to last. Dragon Ball Super on the other hand rushes straight to fights without making any kind of story, it's a hype train made for attracting kids and nothing else
Moro was huge wasted potential, especially his final form with 73. I really wanted more original villains of different species like Z had with the big 3.
Yeah, he wasn't evil, he is justice given form! He is the world! Now venerate the most noble, most splendid, immortal, and supremely powerful god: Zamasu!
Nah, Zamasu wasn't evil. Misguided, definitely. He genuinely believed that mortals were a plague on his world and didn't deserve the world the gods gifted to them. In his mind, he was enacting justice. His intentions were pure, so much so that he is confirmed to have the ability to fly the nimbus cloud.
@@PotatoSlices its metaphord with the tea he serves gowasu. he was darkening and no longer pure. he became evil. as gowasu states does he truly desire to be an insane lonely mishapen god in an empty cosmos? because thats how far warped he became. he murdered even those he saw as equals or superiors
Moro is probably the only super Villian I really like. Has an interesting story, has a reason to be as strong as he is, awesome design and isn’t a bore to listen to
I mean, I not really bothered by the fact that Super has more antagonist than actual villains. In the OG series, while we did have villains like the Pilaf gang and the red ribbon army, they were more like obstacles than an actual threat compared to King Piccolo and his son.
Goddamn Vegeta was intimidating asf in the saiyan saga. Watching the Z fighters getting off'd one by one against Nappa was just painful. Then we found out there's a dude who's far stronger than him in Frieza. Back then, the villains are so intimidating that I couldn't picture of a way for the good guys the win. Even with Goku. The stacks against them seems insurmountable. That's how you know Toriyama made great villains early in the series. Even King Piccolo was great. Part of the problem for Super is it just focused on a repetitive formula of power creeping and the abuse of dragonballs. There's hardly any stakes anymore or sense of dread. It's like death is just a minor inconvenience. They regurgitate the same formula of introducing newer and more powerful villains. Then the good guys train to achieve a new form.
Super only has had THREE new villains in 10 years+ thats insane 1. Frieza (old villain from Z) 2. Zamasu, Goku Black 3. Moro and his goons 4. Gas and the Heaters (no Granolah doesn't count, he is a antagonist)
The problem with Super's villains is that they only really had one in Zamasu and it felt like it started at the final fight too early. There is no build up to the villains at all the way Z did. The villains never really feel like a growing threat the way Freeza did, or the Androids and Cell were heavily built up to. Or how Buu became more of a worsening threat as the arc went on and they build up the fear in his Kid form way before the final fight.
What i remember about DBS: Introduction of Beerus and whis was nice but it almost never felt like a threat. Frieza arc felt like fan service and an excuse for another form Tournament n1 Zamasu Tournament n2
As somebody who actually enjoys DBS' villains (except the Heeters and Jiren) I think the problem is the way the DBS villains are defeated/pacified is at odds with their character/story: Beerus is supposedly obsessed with the SSJG prophecy, but spends the series more concerned about food than the Saiyans. Freeza not only has a deeper realtionship with Vegeta than Goku, but RoF as a whole focuses more on Vegeta's character development, yet Goku is the one who gets the win in the end. Hit's story was about embracing the thrill of the fight over the cold efficiency of the kill, yet his final decision is heavily based on an inability to use his killing techniques. Zamasu was defined by his hatred for mortals, yet was defeated by the immortal Zeno. Jiren prioritised brute strength over cooperation and friendship, but the central reason for his defeat was UI Goku beating the crap out of him with pure power. Broly was supposed to be a good person struggling to control his rage, but showed no sign of fighting his monstrous side and was punched out by Gogeta rather than being reasoned with or shown empathy for his predicament. Moro was supposed to be a trickster more concerned with satiating his evil appetite over fighting for the sake of fighting, but suddenly insists on testing his martial arts skill in a relatively fair fight once on Earth. Granolah was supposedly defined by his desire for revenge, but underwent a character arc offscreen and completely ignored the subject of his desires as soon as he showed up (Freeza). He also showed no concern over the death of the Heeters despite having overcome his desire for revenge. The Heeters (the worst villains in Dragon Ball) were supposedly more focused on information rather than brute strength, only to wish for more power and directly confront the heroes in physical combat just like all the other villains. Gas also has no real reaction to being betrayed by his brother, instead continuing to follow his orders like a fool. Freeza is supposed to be irredeemably evil and a threat to the multiverse, yet our heroes are completely unconcerned and go off to eat lunch like nothing happened after having the crap beaten out of them by him. Super Hero's story actually already concluded before Cell Max showed up, that was just spectacle for the sake of spectacle separate from the actual conflict between the characters of the movie
For me the problem in super is how power creep has been so severe that they are too powerful. A sneeze can destroy a solar system at this point. Hard to make those 2 characters fight and ANYTHING survive. How do u animate or tell a story on such an unreachably high scale. We are almost past terms we can relate to
Zamasu and Goku Black are Z level villains, likely even better but especially the ending of the arc made them and the rest appear less good. The logic problems and horrible ending make many people think worse of the entire arc and the two of them. If the ending was better, basically 80% of the arc would have been fixed.
The whole universe space and time shattering immortal that can't be beat but will destroy all reality sounds cool in theory but in practice it was such a disappointment. A whole timeliness wiped clean? Meh
@@WizArtChelo It had an amazing start though too bad it just resorted too just fighting like the rest of the dbs arcs no story after the start of the arc
How did you manage to not talk about the dbs villains at all this whole video other than saying they suck cause not all of them are evil that’s a pretty lame criticism tbh
DBZ had a story. DBS has things to set up fights. Having a story or plot or villains with any decent motivations (though Zamasu seemed evil to me) takes time that DBS doesn’t have apparently
WTF do you call the Moro arc? That had plenty of time and build up to me at least within the arc where they built up the final clash with Moro and the events from that arc set up the next arc. You guys will find anything to complain instead of just reading something else or just get lives!
@@zemox2534 Wow. I’ll be generous and say maybe 3 arcs out of 8 arcs possibly had a story. One was a retelling of a previous story in Super Hero and Moro seemed very much like the Piccolo arc but I honestly don’t remember the Moro arc much. As for the don’t read it if you don’t like it sentiment don’t reply to comments you don’t like. That doesn’t make sense. You can disagree with someone or something and want it to be better so you voice the concern. If someone doesn’t have that concern that’s great and they can voice that too.
@@zemox2534 Moro didnt have build up like Z thats the point they fight him straight away train and beat him in a very rough retelling every other saga before hand had story that build up to eventually the climax when goku would fight them thats the difference
DBS villain list(I'm not counting small villain like copy vegeta and others): 1)Beerus: but he is not evil 2)Friza:evil but Z villain 3) Zamasu: finally we got a villain 4)Hit and Jiren: just opponent not villain 5)Moro: second villain 6)in granola saga, elec is main villain but he didn't fight, Gas did fight but he is just a servant of Elec.
Zamasu and Goku Black are absolutely villains and not just antagonists. They killed other Kais and were willing to kill other mortals ( including a version of Goku’s family!) just to prove themselves superior above all else and validate their own warped viewpoint. That’s one of the textbook qualifications for being a villain!
The difference between Z and Super is that in Z, it was a personal matter between the Z fighters and villains, i.e vengeance, protection, etc. And someone died in each arc, which made the whole series intense. In addition, to beat the villain, the fighters had to tap into higher power by necessity. The battles were intense with a feel of dread and hopelessness at the beginning. On the other hand, in Super, there was no personal motives to be stronger other than “I need to fight a strong opponent”… ok for what? No one died, no imminent danger, villains become allies, they have help from whis, beerus and zeno, etc. Villains are not scary, no intense periods, build ups were minimal, etc. And it didn’t seem like the fighters gave their all to beat the villains. The closest to a Z villain would have been black goku/zamasu until the end part. They could have made it more interesting if it was like the androids/Cell arc. All in all, Z is for adults and Super is for kids who watch Pokémon, Yugiho, PJ Mask, etc. Hence we couldn’t feel the seriousness in Super. Z felt organic; Super felt like plastic, made in china.
You can't say protection as a point because goku and the fighters were fighting beerus, jiren and the other universes, moro and black to protect their ppl as well. Trunks came back for goku and vegetas help after his mother and girl had just been killed (well he thought she died). He was there not just for protection but vengeance. The z fighters fought in the top to protect their universe from destruction and ultimately others as well (in the end). They fought moro for the same reason as well. And to honor a friend who died (merus). Granolah fought for vengeance against people who he wrongfully directed his anger to. And goku and vegeta fought him because they were tricked by the heeters into thinking he was an enemy (and because they wanted a fight). Vegeta fought beerus in the beginning of super to protect his family and get revenge for his wife (when beerus hit her). Broly fought goku and vegeta because he was manipulated into it (goku even tells him not to fight if he doesn't want to, because he ultimately saw that his heart wasn't evil).
And yes z had deaths but they were easily reversed by getting the dragonballs (even if piccolo died, they have the ones on namek). Krillin died twice and that should've been the end of him but no, they brought him back.
I personally don't have much of a problem with the villians in DBS. I guess we do have more antagonists, but I honestly still like characters like Beerus, Hit, and Granolah. And the villain-villains are just as great to me. Frieza, while not being as intimidating as he was on Namek, still has a lot to enjoy about his character and especially the stakes he brings due to his untrustworthiness. Goku Black and Zamasu had a very interesting philosophy and motivation and the sheer destruction he brought was permanently impactful, made even more intriguing by the fact that he technically has a pure heart. Then there's Moro, a very powerful and dangerous magical villain, which was a nice addition to the roster of villains, his fight with Goku was absolutely brutal and the sheer despiration of him trying to absorb the Earth itself shows how dangerous he can be.
Tien & Piccolo jr are also “antagonists” fans still call them villains in their arcs Hit & Granola are probably the only 2 real good ones, Beerus kinda got ruined by his infinitely raising power now above MUI which is an asspull. Now with “real” villains that also becomes a problem you know part of the reason why Freeza wasn’t intimidating coming back ? An Angel or GoD could just one shot him easily, it’s hard to take even the well written villains seriously when you also have things like the Zeno button to delete everything.
@@DADRB0B55 frieza was never going to be intimidating coming back even back in z. He was not as intimidating when he came to earth just to get one shot by trunks.
Goku black started great but didnt cook enough to be an icon like he needed more fights like being jumped by Goku, Vegeta and Trunks at once, battle damaged costume, seeing him getting to his corner but zamazu kinda was there to make sure he was safe with his imortality and fusion so he fell off flat afterwards, Morro started great as concept and became a cell ripoff with fusion and senzu bean. JIREN IS NOT A VILLIAN.
I guess the only real villain in Super (the anime) was Zamasu, and even he felt like what he was doing was for 'the greater good'. He was insane, but he never considered himself purposely evil lik Freeza or Cell would, and Buu was pretty much evil taken form. I'm thinking the only real villains for Super (other than Zamasu), were ironically in the manga, Moro and Gas.
Revealing a multiverse and clearly showing that there are beings worlds above the main cast takes away from the stakes since they can clean up the mess when they feel like it
I generally agree with your point. Dragon Ball Super's villains more are villains of circumstance rather than true villains that need to be dealt with. Obviously Moro is an exception and is my favorite villain of the Super series. I'd even put Moro above Buu as a villain. Granted they are above some OG DB and most GT villains like Pilaf and Super 17. Although antagonists to Goku aren't really a problem as I loved Broly in DBS Broly movie and how his fight was more spurred on by Paragus and then Frieza killing Paragus. Villains like Freiza, Tao Pai Pai, Demon King Piccolo, Vegeta, and Baby stood out for a reason. Not only were they powerful, they gave some incredible fights that forced Goku to push himself to the limit otherwise he risks losing everything he loves
Black and Moro are pretty good villians. But an issue they can’t change is the fact that you have Beerus who is stronger than any villain they fight, and a story in super that’s right before the End of Z. So even if Cell or Buu don’t have much depth they are written as the end boss which raises the tension
It seems to me that in super everything is controlled and playful, zeno could repair any mistake and win for the cast, beerus and whis can help etc it s like staged
Super has better stories. Z would take up to 20 chapters just start a fight with a henchman let alone the main villain. Jiren is not a villain he is a competitor in a tournament.
a lot of the problem is in most of Super there are no actual bad guys. beerus and jiren are NOT evil. then the 2 actual evil bad guys are frieza, which is just a Z bad guy and Goku Black, which is just evil Goku. now in the manga we have Moro and Gas, which are bad guys but, they kinda suck. Moro is decent but i did not really like Gas at all. and even then the arc ends with Frieza anyway so its like who even give a shit about Gas now. even in the films Broly is NOT evil, the Gammas are NOT evil and Cell Max is just a mindless monster thats not even a real character. all of the bad guys from DBZ where actual characters who were actually legitimately evil, Super has very little of this.
I think the villains in DBS have been pretty great, with the best being Moro and Goku Black. I like the direction they are going with, by including a few pure evil villains (Moro, Frieza, Goku Black) and then having a few sympathetic/misunderstood antagonists (Jiren, Granolah, Gas, Broly, etc). It's a more unique direction then every antagonist being straight up evil
@@herohunter5961 gas is not braindead as he knew what he wanted to do and that was to help his brother no matter what and kill the saiyans and granolah even if it cost him his life.
If you dont count Zamasu (Black) there is non in super...and i kinda like it....most of the Super was spinning around the tournament of Power and why would you need a villain in there ? Isnt that obvious that in tournament of power betwen universes will be strongest mortals you can find in every single universe? It was nice at once to see that there are just fighters with their own reasons why they want to survive and not only watch another super mega giga strong villain after another trying to wipe out galaxy..
Valid points all throughout the video up until you got to Super's problems imo. Not labelling Zamasu as a villain is bizarre, he was going to commit mass genocide/extinction and impose tyranny. Hitler had ideals too, following them does not make you immune to being evil. And then you touched on villains vs. antagonists. Anything to do with Beerus, Hit, Jiren, or Granolah for sure need to be evaluated differently. Personally I think this is something DBS does well. The "pure evil for no reason" shtick cant be repeated forever. The antagonists in DBS may not be as "good" as the ones in DBZ, but they are much less black and white which is a major improvement to the writing and story.
Honestly it's about the setting there's a before and after every villain was defeated in DBZ. There was the Frieza force era, then the red ribbon army resurgence, then the majins and the kais who the z fighters overcame. In DBS the villains feel like they were just there because and it feels like there's no effect on the story because well everything's already defined at the end of z. If there was an angel rebellion against GoDs and mortals like in Kakumei DBS would be changed significantly in the plot and there'd be a before and after making the story much more significant.
Yes Zamasu and Goku Black were villains. Just because they saw their vision as pure and right doesn't change that. The Z fighters have been fighting people caused the same kind of carnage for ages. Those two killed everyone in their way for their vision of a pure world while Cell Frieza and Buu did it for fun but the difference in motive doesn't really change the fact that that's some villainous stuff. IMO those two are great villains in the world of dragonball but the way the arc ended was ass, kinda taking away how good everything before it was. The others you mentioned (Hit and Jiren) were just antagonists like you said a kin to Tien in og dragonball just fighting in a tournament. Beerus can go either way as he was such a major threat to the world of dragonball as we know it but he was too chill leading up to the climactic fight to be considered a real villain.
Super's villians are cool yes but kinda one note one trick ponies. Zamasu was the most interesting as he was a Kai gone rouge. Now, IMO Black Frieza is the dumbest most half brained idea that has come out of the franchise. The final villain should have been an Angel that has been corrupted almost in the same vain as Zamasu. Frieza should have been revived yes but at the same time should have just been pushed into the background. Maybe he shows up svery now and then to witness Goku's and Vegeta's feats and takes notes. How would a Arc as Black Frieza realistically conclude? Will Goku defeat Frieza yet again? Its just become a stale contrast of yin and yang. If anything for goodness sake let Vegeta have the win when I honestly feel like a creation such as Black Frieza is unbeatable. Unless (which this is the only way I can see a win for the Z fighters) Goku and Vegeta fuse releasing Ultra Instinct. I fear Black Frieza will unfortunately make Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast look like fodder.
Personally, I disagree. This is more of a video on "Why Dragon Ball Z villains are better" than "The Problem with Villains in Dragon Ball Super". I agree that Dragon Ball Z had better villains, but Super also had great villains as well. And since it was a different series from Z, the formula for the villains had to be different. In Dragon Ball Z, antagonists like Frieza, Cell and Buu were evil just for plot or just for the sake of being evil. The antagonists in Super like Goku Black and Jiren, are against the protagonists and believe in a lie, but they believe they're doing the right thing. Dragon Ball Z mag be considered all around better than Super, but that comparison makes people overlook the things Super did right. The villains in Super shouldn't be compared with the ones in Z, because outside of that comparison, the Dragon Ball Super antagonists were very great. Beerus was a villain whom Goku and Vegeta spend several sagas trying to catch up to and surpass and introduced a whole new realm of power. Goku Black was a very evil and sadistic villain that gave fans what they wanted to see, that they being an evil Goku. He had a very good reason for wanting to kill everyone, and the Black Saga in general is very good. The soundtracks, the battles, the plot and so many scene like Vegito's return were all great. But whenever someone criticizes the Goku Black Saga, they'll immediately compare it's flaws to what Dragon Ball Z did right which I don't think is fair. Jiren may be argued to a plot device, But Goku really did have to fight and do everything to catch up with him. Dragon Ball Super is great in my opinion.
I feel like Zamasu/Goku Black is a pretty iconic villain from the new era of Dragon Ball tho. Moro and Gas/Heathers are still pretty unknown for the fact that they're manga only characters. Most people don't read the manga.
I think Super is missing a villain that has lots of minions to cause trouble to not only Goku and Vegeta, but the rest of the good guys as well (think of the ginyu force, turles allies, cooler squad etc). It would keep the viewer entertained wondering what everyone would do next. Because Goku is having way, WAY TOO MUCH ADVANTAGE, to the point nobody is surprised anymore that he wins. It's been a long time since we saw someone leading a group to battle the good guys. And this would also bring the classic, serious leader type Goku that we saw in Z.
Bro! I get some of the points you make, and I know DBS has its problems, but you SEVERLY under-played Zamasu! Yeah, he's not just a dark force of evil like Frieza or Cell, but if you watch or read the Goku Black Arc I think it can be easily deduced that he is VERY CLEARLY a villain! Yes, the arc had a terrible ending, and Frieza might be fun to watch because he's just a tyrant for the fun of it (and he is still my favorite DB antagonist), but Zamasu was such a W! He had an actual motive this time while still being ruthless and disgustingly evil! And before anyone tries to argue about how flawed his philosophy was, that was the entire point! Trunks even points out how much Zamasu contradicts himself during their fight, because Zamasu is a psychopath! There are plenty of people in the fandom who put him up there with the big three of DBZ because he was actually a good antagonist!
I think it has a lot to do with the characters introductions too. Raditz is under Vegeta and he is under Frieza. This is all established really early on. Cell is a oart of the Red Ribbon Army which we knew to be a threat to kid goku. Like, it's always built on established lore in the show. Even Berus just comes out of nowhere. Buu suffers from this too but its a lot easier to dismiss since it was the first time Toriama did it.
I believe there is no wait Super's villains, because they were rushed out to the market. The characters need to something else during their arc, whether that be enjoying peace before the villain shows up or fighting their minions or other minor villains first.
The best way to craft a villain is to layout what makes them evil or what motivations would drive them to do evil. Dragon Ball's villains worked simply because many of them had common goals involving supremacy and sometimes vengeance. Dragon Ball Z's villains worked simply because they were always evil & posed a much bigger threat to all life, Piccolo was the first of the major villains to embody that trait despite first appearing in Dragon Ball. As far as Dragon Ball Super goes, the only villains that come close to those layouts other than Frieza were Moro and The Heeters.
Goku black was clearly a villain dawg...knock it off. Personally i have no major issues with the antagonists in super. They don't all have to be inherently evil all the time, it was a good change up from the typical.
They could easily stall the whole power up thing by creating a new character that eventually gets involved with the Z cast…by also introducing a whole new villain.
I'm not sure I agree with the criticism. Your problem is that the antagonists in Super don't follow a similar formula to Z villains. I see this as a good thing, not a bad thing. It would have gotten stale if Super's antagonists were like Z villains. Zamasu/Goku Black was especially a breath of fresh air, because he was a villains who saw himself as righteous. Dragon Ball was severely lacking in this tyoe of villain. I don’t think Dragon Ball needs anymore "just plain evil" villains anymore.
I think the thing is most fans love Dragonball Z villains/hero/story that of classic Dragonball. Although it's same Manga but from Saiyan Saga, the story and character writing took a whole different stage. Dragonball Super was written in a similar way to original dragonball and not Dragonball Z. Most antagonist in Dragonball were not big time villain like Freeza, Cell, Buu. Actually Piccolo and somewhat Red Ribbon Army where the big villains of the DB story. Most other villains/antagonist like Pilaf, Tien, mercenary Tao were written as characters before villain. Hit is similar to Roshi/Jackie Chan in 21st world martial arts tournament as his purpose was to show the growth of Goku's power after his training with Roshi. Tien was similar to Jiran as they have significant character development during their fight against Goku.
I have to disagree. I really like DBS villains. The writing is definetly mediocre, but the concept is really good. It changes the narrative from ever villain being evil to the "villain" not really being a villain, more so there is a conflict of interest, so it proposes a moral dilemma. The on real villains in DBS so far were Zamasu and Moro (and Frieza of you count him), the others were just antagonists. Jiren was fighting to save his Universe and Granolah and Gas wanted to take revenge on the Sayans a Frieza and their motives were absolutely valid. I think it creates a more i teresting narrative because it's not black and white thinking, there isn't a clear good and evil
About the whole: "is Zamasu a villain or an antagonist"? What I think the point is, is that MORTALS would look at Zamasu as evil. He sees himself as the universe's hero by purifying it from it's greatest sin and failure. Since we got his point of view and philosophy too, not just Trunks's experience, the whole "he is evil" - "he is not evil" discussion is controversial. He believes in his goal but his ways and deeds are absolutely horrofying. he feels like "the end justifies the means" kind of guy. Some people would view him as antagonist for his own idea of the "perfect world" and the fact that his actions are not as mean spirited as they seem to us, since we are too inferior to understand him fully, while others would emphasize his misdeeds and crimes against living creatures just for existing, "as the villain he is". That is why his whole character is wonderful to me! He's not another COMPLETELY irredeemable villain or another pure evil as portrayed in Z. (as seen in the manga, he was questioning his own actions and belifes for a brief moment while he was lectured by Gowasu, which shows a little chance for a change in him.) he has more layers and is more complex, with more depth than seen on the surface. And he didn't do it to show how strong he is, to flex his power or for the sake of killing, nor did he ignore his feelings. He took matters to his own hands and took action for the greater good as he sees it. What he did is both GOOD and BAD rather than taking a simple path. It's all just a matter of perspective. As I see it, he did earn the place in the "villain" category. You are allowed to disagree, and forgive me if there are spelling or grammer mistakes. Thank you for reading!
I dont think theres an issue with the antagonists of super. They are not all meant to be villain's. Antagonists are not exclusively "bad guys" Dengen in Frerien is an antagonist during the first part of the mage exam. Hit is not a villian, jiren isnt either. Moro was. Goku black and Zamasu 100% were. They didnt do anything wrong, but they were. I think a lot of super hasnt been actually fighting evil. Its been just setting up the multiverse. 3 of the major arcs are centered around another universe. TOP, Goku Black was from U10, and the U6 v U7.
Hmmm I suppose the biggest problem I have with the main antagonist of Super is the lack of a fulfilling and concise ending for each major arc. I'd say most of the villains start off strong, interesting and impactful, but wane as the series progresses until their ending felt unsatisfying. Goku Black created so much massive intrigue that fans couldn't stop speculating about who he was, how Goku turned out Evil and how were things going to progress. However once it was revealed it was Zamasu inside of Goku's body, fused with an alt timeline Zamasu and then became so powerful Trunks's entire timeline had to be erased, making his entire journey up to that point in Z, pointless left a bad taste in many people's mouths. He wasn't defeated by a protagonist, Vegito's fusion was not only retconned, but also extremely shortlived to the point of having no purpose to the story and let's be real here, Zamasu didn't have much interesting to say. Moro was kind of in the same boat. Guy started off incredibly interesting. He was a fighter who didn't rely on martial arts or brawling to win, but his magic and creativity. He used the environment of the planet he was on to fight, which was extremely different from prior protagonists that came before, making him extremely unique. This is on top of his incredible design that, while humanoid, was more anthro than anything else, helping him feel more alien compared to the Z-Fighters. However his motivations was very poor to the point where many don't remember what his ultimate goal real was, the wish he made that had many fans on edge for months on end, turned out to be something extremely lame and mondane where a magical reality altering dragon really wasn't needed to make it a reality and the way he got humiliated by Goku near the end left most fans going "Meh" from what I was told. Then there's Jiren, who started off somewhat intriguing as well, but the more that was revealed about him, the more boring and lame he felt. He started off as this strong, mysterious and imposing figure that even most other Gods of Destruction feared for his power, that he had this massively tragic backstory that made most afraid to talk about it, but its later revealed he's a guy who was orphaned at a young age by a space-pirate, then had his master and friends killed by said space-pirate again, only to then think that because people around him kept dying, that he could only rely on himself.... I guess? No one hears a backstory that generic and thinks "Aww man, so cool and deep. I've never heard that before for a character." Its lame and by-the-books for a stoic character. Jiren wasn't even betrayed so his mistrust in others don't feel valid. It would make more sense if he was afraid of connecting with others simply because he's so used to experiencing death that he's jaded by the idea of companionship that will never last. Either way, the villains tend to start off strong, but slowly drag to a finish that feels dissatisfying in many ways. I could have gone far deeper but don't want to write even more of an essay than I already did. When the payoff for a antagonist doesn't linger, doesn't feel satisfying or enticing, no one cares or bothers to remember.
As much as I dislike DBS as a whole, I will say that Zamasu (as well as Goku black and fused) was a pretty neat villain, his believes may have been twisted and Gowasu was sort of the catalyst for causing the whole thing, but I enjoyed how much more racist he can be over Frieza He couldn't have been redeemed, his only goal was to exterminate all mortals, and it was pretty refreshing to see an irredeemable villain
Most of this video is just recap of the series which I already seen a million times🙄 I would have preferred a more direct comparison of the two series cause you do have a point that the Super villains are different. The new villains are more complex compared to the usual evil for evils sake villains dragon ball usually has
Now I’m ngl I love DBZ more than super but to say super villains aren’t on par with Z is not correct first off there is really only 1 villain in super and that’s Zamasu/Goku Black everyone else was not a villain but just a wall that had to be overcome so I wouldn’t say Hit or Jiren are villains because they are fighting the Z fighters as they wouldn’t be fighting if there universes wasn’t on the line by a 3rd party. Zamasu on the other hand is a villain and he has his reasons way more reasons than any of the Z villains. Frieza was evil because he was the strongest at wanted to conquer everything. Cell was evil because of his creator designing him to be evil. Buu was evil because of his creator Zamasu has his reasons he saw humans as a blight to the universe and flaw that the gods created and wanted to change that I would definitely put Zamasu on the same tier as Z villains if not better than Buu maybe Cell. And I like Z more than super and I can admit this. For the record my series ranking goes Z Super DB GT
I mean, Cell had a motivation too - he wasn't only limited to his programming from Dr. Gero, but looked beyond that, to what he'd do next once he got those androids absorbed. Cell didn't really CARE about killing Goku specifically - that was Dr. Gero's concern - instead, Cell's Frieza and King Cold DNA came out and he planned to move on to other planets after earth, conquering and terrifying the universe - out of pure boredom with being so strong he had no equals in battle once he'd destroyed the earth. IF he had won, the only one in the universe who would pose a threat to him one day would be Beerus or Broly - and he'd be unlikely to ever meet either. Buu would never be revived, and Cell would have the same ability as Frieza, to both get FAR stronger from a minor amount of training and survive in space, he'd live basically forever, and unlike Frieza he has saiyan DNA telling him to TRAIN and get stronger. So one day, Cell may have gone well beyond SSJ blue level with very little effort on his part. And that's the thing - CELL is carrying Vegeta AND Goku's DNA with him - which means he has the same motivators THEY do - to fight and get strong and to fight for sport and fun (the whole reason he HAD the Cell games) - and Frieza's cruelty and arrogance and desire for conquest. So he had TWO big drivers behind his actions. Dr. Gero's dream was just a stepping stone to ambitions Gero never dreamed when creating him. Dr. Gero only wanted to kill Goku to get revenge for what he did to his Red Ribbon Army - he couldn't have imagined Cell would instead say "let's play a game" and then if he won, destroy the whole planet and fly off to destroy countless others in his search for a good fight. After all, Dr. Gero, you have to remember, did NOT intend on destroying the earth. He was still ALIVE until 17 killed him - and he had no intention of killing himself, so Cell deciding to destroy earth was way beyond what he had intended from him. If 17 had not killed Gero, Cell would have, the moment he tried to give him orders. That whole "destroy the earth" thing was the Frieza in him.
I think it’s because before we didn’t just rely on goku. We’d rely on every one. Of course goku was superior to krillin, but we still needed every drop of help. Now days it’s like we’re only relying on goku and vegeta.
You are wrong. DB was all about power levels almost from the beginning. At first it was supposed to be an adventure comedy, later Toriyama slowly shifted his focus on adventure part. About Red Ribbon Army stakes got real, introduction of Piccolo Daimao already changed the series entirely. The rest, the progress was a simple power escalation. And during tournaments power levels mattered too, but the biggest difference was that fighters were more evenly matched so they had to rely on their tricks and techniques to gain a leverage over their opponents. In Z part of the story, techniques didn't disappeared: There was Kaioken, Kienzan, Genki Dama, KI Control, Kamikadze Frieza Ball, etc. I agree that Earthlings became irrelevant, and that could be fixed, but it wasn't power levels fault.
Another issue I have is the lack of originality in Moro. He is just so lame. For one his design didnt really feel like a Toriyama villain to me, and second, him just become a bad Cell clone completely took away his agency as a villain. Down to how the fights played out. Like come on.
I believe super can't truly have any villans because they introduced the strongest beings and the strongest being Zeno so you have a sense of security that nothing will go wrong and villains can't actually be developed long term
The funny thing about this conversation is that is shows the real issue with super overall. It's exactly like you said, super doesn't have true villains, just antagonists to Goku. One exception is Goku black, and funny enough, when having the conversation of which arc in super is the best, most will say the Goku Black arc, which is also the only arc with an actual villain. See how that works? Super was still enjoyable, but imo, it's the weakest out of all dragon ball arcs, and lacking actual worth while villains is a main reason. And no, I will not accept Jiren as a villain, he's not even close to being a villain.🤷♂️
Granolah could've been such an interesting character with vegeta. Both were manipulated by people who used their power over them to make them do as they wanted. Except Gas compared to frieza just becomes a mid mindless fight machine, wouldve been alot better if Elec stole Gas' power using his ability ( which i just created he has nothing special ) because Elec is more interesting, someone selfish with no care for anyone even if hes been with them for decades. The way he manipulated Gas was cool but it led nowhere. And then freiza shows up and kill all the tension for shock factor sake. Such a shame for a pretty decent arc untill Gas arrived.
I think a major issue left unaddressed in this video is that villains in Super don’t have any major side villains that service the main antagonist of the arcs. For example in Z, Vegeta had Raditz and Nappa. Frieza had Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, and the Ginyu force. Cell had Android’s #19, #20, #17, and #18. Buu had Babidi, Dabura, as well as Babidi’s minions. Each side villain not only acts as an obstacle for the protagonists, but also to further develop the main antagonist.
Raditz acts as an almost insurmountable obstacle for the heroes in the beginning, and then reveals that the other saiyans are FAR more powerful than him, creating a sense of worry and dread. Nappa then inspires much fear in the heroes as well as the audience, before revealing that Vegeta is not only stronger than him, but also more merciless and terrifying.
Cui showcases how far Vegeta has come, showing how he can instantly defeat someone who was at his level only a short time prior. Dodoria further’s frieza’s character by telling how he destroyed planet Vegeta. Zarbon furthers Frieza’s character by introducing transformations. The ginyu force operates for Frieza much the same as how Nappa did for Vegeta.
Android #19 doesn’t help Cell a ton, but Android #20 serves as Cell’s creator, and foreshadows Cell’s sneakiness and skills of evasion. Androids #17 and #18 not only serve as Cell’s goal, but demonstrate how fearsome cell is. If the Androids were powerful and scary enough to lay waste to the future timeline, and Cell was supposed to be even worse, then he must be absolutely horrifying.
Buu kinda serves as the opposite as previous villains. Buu isn’t a mastermind or a leader, he’s a timebomb that no one is capable of controlling. Dabura tries to subjugate Buu to Babidi’s will and is immediately destroyed by him. Babidi, who gladly allows his minions to die, is killed by Buu, which lets the monster be able to do anything he wants. These all show how scary and unpredictable Buu is, and how he’s unstoppable by both physical and mental means.
Now as for Super Villains, Beerus is unstoppable from the get go and his only partner is Whis, who is generally a pacifist. Frieza returns and only really has the Frieza force, who are largely without any personality. Hit has no personal connection to the rest of the universe 6 group. Goku Black and Zamasu are the same people and are there from the beginning of the arc to the end, so no side villains. Jiren has a connection to Toppo, but really no one else. However, aside from power, no one else is able to further Jiren’s own character aside from the fact he doesn’t really care about his friends. Broly has Paragus with the father-son connection, and it’s honestly the best characterization of an “antagonist” in all of super. Paragus is abusive and harsh, but it’s shown how much Broly loves him in his own way. Moro has the Moro corps but they got like no characterization to them. Granolah has nothing to him, and Gas has the rest of the Heeter family, but they’re non combative and don’t really offer much. Cell Max is completely mindless and the rest of the villains of the super hero arc don’t have any personal connection to him.
Did you even read the Granolah arc!? Granolah was a complicated antagonist who almost lost himself to his anger! Instead of complaining about lack of villain why not appreciate how well written granolah is?
Welcome to am I reading all that,choose your response to the question am I reading all that:
a. No
b.Yes’nt
c.absolutely not
@@zemox2534There was nothing complicated about him wanting revenge on Frieza or the Saiyans lol. He wasn’t even the main antagonist of the arc
Dude I normally don't read these long essays. But what you said is true to the book. There are no side villains there to emphasize how dangerous the main villains are. I mean even we know frieza is dangerous but there's no deep description how bad his gold form is in the beginning and beerus being strong at the start is like introducing cell final form and him having the cell games immediately. There's no build up. No growth that slowly draws towards this big climax. I mean if goku black had maybe 3 henchmen who serve under him to destroy the planet and goku and vegeta need to work hard to beat them in order to grow towards fighting goku black and zamasu. That would be nice. For me the only super arc I enjoyed was the Moro arc. There was a steady growth and build up and as he retained his youth, there was a bit of fear to this. You knew after he left namek that we were truly in danger and needed more help. But yea. There needs to be growth and slow push to the main villain
A member of the frieza force helped him to improve leaps and bounds ahead of where he was before in terms of power and we can't forget the other member who literally brought him back to life. Granolah had monaito who served as his guardian and part of his moral compass. Gas brother was an abusive person who used him for selfish reasons. The character and his relations are right in front of us.
Good villains started in Dragonball King Piccolo is a OG
I feel bad for people who do not start at the start of the story you miss out on so much and have a better understanding of everything.
Not really,king piccolo was fine
But I prefer everything that happened with Tao pai pai and red ribbon
I cant believe i clicked on a dbs villains video to be given a 7 minute summary about dbz
😂
7/8 Minutes of the Video is just Z Glazing Bruh
Its the typical shonen problem. Once the characters have done all they need to, the villains can't challenge the characters in any way beyond just using strength. So the show becomes a monster of the week type deal.
Frieza was able psychologically compete with Vegeta because of their past. And he was able to compete with Goku because all the morals and lessons Goku learned in the past were actually completely nullified by frieza.
Relying on friends? Useless.
A fighter can become an elite if he trains hard enough? Hahahaha.
Anyone can be a teacher? Goku used all his techniques and none of them worked.
Cell had less interactions with the characters but the android's strength forced Vegeta and Trunks into a psychological corner.
Buu? Is a monster of the week but Vegeta and Gohan had their development
Super's villains are just "Im strong, get stronger so you can beat me"
But why lie like that ? Granola is literally the same as old Vegeta making their fight let us notice that and Jiren directly contradicts Goku’s way of strength. He believes strength from one’s self is Absolute. That’s why Jiren acknowledges Vegeta first before Goku because he never relied on others. Jirens philosophy of strength is shown well. So you saying Super Villans are just “ I’m strong , get stronger so you can beat me” is a lie .
@@kaienglish271 That's like saying Beerus believes the earth should be destroyed and Goku doesnt in the BoG arc. The fight happens, the villain leaves, the main characters are exactly the same as they were before the saga happened except they're stronger now.
Contrast this with the cell Saga where Gohan started as a kid that happened with odd jobs and ended as earth's protector.
Jiren's way of strength was different to Goku's but Goku didn't care. Goku probably doesn't even know. At the end of the day the only thing about Jiren that caused Goku trouble was his strength. And Granola??? Meh, haven't read it really.
@@thedead073 But that’s not the case. Goku and the rest of the show acknowledge his way of strength. They mention trust a lot in the TOP. Just because it doesn’t force Goku to change like it did in the Namek saga or Cell saga doesn’t mean it’s not important. The Super villains are completely opposite to Z villains.
The Suoer Villans actually have Vaild reasons to do the actions or have the beliefs that they do for example Zamasu/ Goku Black his point of View is not wrong from the position he was in.
Granolah had vegeta reflect on his past and relate to him on some level and brought forward his self destructive tendencies, which was the very thing whis taught him to avoid. It got to the point that even goku called him out.
Rof arc is actually a bit different because the roles were reversed. While goku was the one being challenged mentally in z, frieza was challenged in this arc.
He was used to being the strongest but then goku came along and beat him. He came back with enhancements and still lost to another saiyan. This arc had him change his mentality by actually training his body to surpass his foil. But his flaw still prevailed (once he got stronger, he never trained the form). And then he learns from this as reflected not just in the top but granolah arc as well.
The point you brought up about relying on friends confuses me. Do you mean that even with friends, goku couldn't stand up to frieza? Because the minute goku stepped into the battlefield, he told everyone to leave. And then there's the fact that he did rely on piccolo to stall and it helped him gather energy.
@thedead073 jiren is a foil to goku that nobody else in this series could ever be. Jiren is pretty much the ideal of how goku wanted to achieve his strength. But later in the ToP he realizes that's not the way to go and relied on his friends instead. Jiren may not be the most well written character backstory wise but in terms of being a foil to goku there's no other who can rival that.
The problem is that there are barely any villains.
No actually
Facts, moro and goku black are the only ones that even feel like villains
Actually better, villains every arc is boring, I much rather have a regular neutral or moral antagonist
@IHonestlyDontGAF I agree with you to a degree. But Super has been going on for almost a decade now. The fact that there have only been 2 villains is too far in the opposite direction.
You guys do not have to read super you know! Toyotaro is trying so hard and yet you "fans" continue 2 whine. Also no villains? WTF do you call the heaters or did you all ignored that just to justify your flimsy complaint?!
The main issue with Super Villains is that there are only 3-4 original DBS villains who are actually villains and not just anti-heroes. Hit, Beerus, Jirin, Granolah, Broly, Gamma 1, and Gamma 2 were just misunderstood anti heroes who all end up becoming good. Frieza is just a carried over villain from Z. The only true DBS original villains are Goku Black/Zamasu, Moro, Gas, and Cell Max (Two of which haven’t even been animated yet). Goku Black, Moro, and Zamasu all function incredibly well as villains and I personally think that they all fit in perfectly with the Z villains. But Gas and Cell Max are very hollow attempts at being true villains, as yes they are evil, Cell Max is just a mindless beast while Gas is just mistreated.
I also would like to add for Gas and Cell Max is that they were both ponds for their true main villains in their respective stories. Elec being the true main villain of the Granolah the Survivor saga, and Magenta being the main villain of the Superhero saga.
@@xanderg.1070, good point
Yeah gas and cell Max are pretty boring
cell max is also just a copy of cell, and so is moro, the entire moro arc was a parallel of the cell arc
@@roywempor8395 Morro is basically a rehash of king Piccolo Morro sucks
Zamasu saga in DBZ would be soo dope!
The problem is, DBZ is story written, story always came first fights and transformations came second to last. Dragon Ball Super on the other hand rushes straight to fights without making any kind of story, it's a hype train made for attracting kids and nothing else
Facts
didnt GT have arguably the best villain however yeah
@@solomonogbe-d9xBaby is the best villain I agree
Tell most of the anime community this DBZ is apparently just fighting and goku beating villains that pop up. Which is OG ball more then anything
@user-gd9vp9lg4d who tho? Don't even say baby his ass ain't besting Vegeta or Cell
Moro was huge wasted potential, especially his final form with 73. I really wanted more original villains of different species like Z had with the big 3.
Saying zamasu wasn’t evil is a bit of a stretch 😭
He's not evil broo He just had a different perspectiveee duhh
@@nood1leYou’re talking about the man who smiled while killing millions of innocent people, assuming they’re all the same?
Zamasu glazing is crazy
Yeah, he wasn't evil, he is justice given form! He is the world! Now venerate the most noble, most splendid, immortal, and supremely powerful god: Zamasu!
Nah, Zamasu wasn't evil. Misguided, definitely. He genuinely believed that mortals were a plague on his world and didn't deserve the world the gods gifted to them. In his mind, he was enacting justice. His intentions were pure, so much so that he is confirmed to have the ability to fly the nimbus cloud.
@@PotatoSlices its metaphord with the tea he serves gowasu. he was darkening and no longer pure. he became evil. as gowasu states does he truly desire to be an insane lonely mishapen god in an empty cosmos? because thats how far warped he became. he murdered even those he saw as equals or superiors
Good stuff. Always appreciating the points you make in your videos.
Moro is probably the only super Villian I really like. Has an interesting story, has a reason to be as strong as he is, awesome design and isn’t a bore to listen to
I mean, I not really bothered by the fact that Super has more antagonist than actual villains. In the OG series, while we did have villains like the Pilaf gang and the red ribbon army, they were more like obstacles than an actual threat compared to King Piccolo and his son.
Goddamn Vegeta was intimidating asf in the saiyan saga.
Watching the Z fighters getting off'd one by one against Nappa was just painful.
Then we found out there's a dude who's far stronger than him in Frieza. Back then, the villains are so intimidating that I couldn't picture of a way for the good guys the win. Even with Goku. The stacks against them seems insurmountable.
That's how you know Toriyama made great villains early in the series. Even King Piccolo was great.
Part of the problem for Super is it just focused on a repetitive formula of power creeping and the abuse of dragonballs. There's hardly any stakes anymore or sense of dread. It's like death is just a minor inconvenience. They regurgitate the same formula of introducing newer and more powerful villains. Then the good guys train to achieve a new form.
Super only has had THREE new villains in 10 years+ thats insane
1. Frieza (old villain from Z)
2. Zamasu, Goku Black
3. Moro and his goons
4. Gas and the Heaters (no Granolah doesn't count, he is a antagonist)
Doesn't dbz also have only 3 main villains with the main villains just having a bunch of minions
OG73 still out there
@@artvandelay94 bro is a super hero in his home universe, dude is a Antagonist
The problem with Super's villains is that they only really had one in Zamasu and it felt like it started at the final fight too early. There is no build up to the villains at all the way Z did. The villains never really feel like a growing threat the way Freeza did, or the Androids and Cell were heavily built up to. Or how Buu became more of a worsening threat as the arc went on and they build up the fear in his Kid form way before the final fight.
So much great content
You need more subs my man
What i remember about DBS:
Introduction of Beerus and whis was nice but it almost never felt like a threat.
Frieza arc felt like fan service and an excuse for another form
Tournament n1
Zamasu
Tournament n2
As somebody who actually enjoys DBS' villains (except the Heeters and Jiren) I think the problem is the way the DBS villains are defeated/pacified is at odds with their character/story:
Beerus is supposedly obsessed with the SSJG prophecy, but spends the series more concerned about food than the Saiyans.
Freeza not only has a deeper realtionship with Vegeta than Goku, but RoF as a whole focuses more on Vegeta's character development, yet Goku is the one who gets the win in the end.
Hit's story was about embracing the thrill of the fight over the cold efficiency of the kill, yet his final decision is heavily based on an inability to use his killing techniques.
Zamasu was defined by his hatred for mortals, yet was defeated by the immortal Zeno.
Jiren prioritised brute strength over cooperation and friendship, but the central reason for his defeat was UI Goku beating the crap out of him with pure power.
Broly was supposed to be a good person struggling to control his rage, but showed no sign of fighting his monstrous side and was punched out by Gogeta rather than being reasoned with or shown empathy for his predicament.
Moro was supposed to be a trickster more concerned with satiating his evil appetite over fighting for the sake of fighting, but suddenly insists on testing his martial arts skill in a relatively fair fight once on Earth.
Granolah was supposedly defined by his desire for revenge, but underwent a character arc offscreen and completely ignored the subject of his desires as soon as he showed up (Freeza). He also showed no concern over the death of the Heeters despite having overcome his desire for revenge.
The Heeters (the worst villains in Dragon Ball) were supposedly more focused on information rather than brute strength, only to wish for more power and directly confront the heroes in physical combat just like all the other villains. Gas also has no real reaction to being betrayed by his brother, instead continuing to follow his orders like a fool.
Freeza is supposed to be irredeemably evil and a threat to the multiverse, yet our heroes are completely unconcerned and go off to eat lunch like nothing happened after having the crap beaten out of them by him.
Super Hero's story actually already concluded before Cell Max showed up, that was just spectacle for the sake of spectacle separate from the actual conflict between the characters of the movie
For me the problem in super is how power creep has been so severe that they are too powerful. A sneeze can destroy a solar system at this point. Hard to make those 2 characters fight and ANYTHING survive.
How do u animate or tell a story on such an unreachably high scale.
We are almost past terms we can relate to
Zamasu and Goku Black are Z level villains, likely even better but especially the ending of the arc made them and the rest appear less good. The logic problems and horrible ending make many people think worse of the entire arc and the two of them. If the ending was better, basically 80% of the arc would have been fixed.
Goku Black arc is just a fight from begining to end against the main villain. There is no arc like that in DBZ. A bit boring to me personally.
The whole universe space and time shattering immortal that can't be beat but will destroy all reality sounds cool in theory but in practice it was such a disappointment. A whole timeliness wiped clean? Meh
@@WizArtChelo It had an amazing start though too bad it just resorted too just fighting like the rest of the dbs arcs no story after the start of the arc
@@WizArtChelo not too mention the whole story make sense at all when you think about it and it got too complicated
How did you manage to not talk about the dbs villains at all this whole video other than saying they suck cause not all of them are evil that’s a pretty lame criticism tbh
Dragon Ball's Greatest Villains Are Cell And Frizea
Amazing job on the video
DBZ had a story. DBS has things to set up fights. Having a story or plot or villains with any decent motivations (though Zamasu seemed evil to me) takes time that DBS doesn’t have apparently
WTF do you call the Moro arc? That had plenty of time and build up to me at least within the arc where they built up the final clash with Moro and the events from that arc set up the next arc. You guys will find anything to complain instead of just reading something else or just get lives!
@@zemox2534 Wow. I’ll be generous and say maybe 3 arcs out of 8 arcs possibly had a story. One was a retelling of a previous story in Super Hero and Moro seemed very much like the Piccolo arc but I honestly don’t remember the Moro arc much.
As for the don’t read it if you don’t like it sentiment don’t reply to comments you don’t like. That doesn’t make sense. You can disagree with someone or something and want it to be better so you voice the concern. If someone doesn’t have that concern that’s great and they can voice that too.
@@zemox2534 Moro didnt have build up like Z thats the point they fight him straight away train and beat him in a very rough retelling every other saga before hand had story that build up to eventually the climax when goku would fight them thats the difference
@@zemox2534 Moro arc overall was still pretty good though even though it has alot of problems but for dbs standards it was good
Zamasu was a great villain with a motive and the only Super arch that really made me binge the anime like crazy
DBS villain list(I'm not counting small villain like copy vegeta and others):
1)Beerus: but he is not evil
2)Friza:evil but Z villain
3) Zamasu: finally we got a villain
4)Hit and Jiren: just opponent not villain
5)Moro: second villain
6)in granola saga, elec is main villain but he didn't fight, Gas did fight but he is just a servant of Elec.
I think they could've done lot with goku black/zamasu arc.
Like what else?
Zamasu and Goku Black are absolutely villains and not just antagonists. They killed other Kais and were willing to kill other mortals ( including a version of Goku’s family!) just to prove themselves superior above all else and validate their own warped viewpoint. That’s one of the textbook qualifications for being a villain!
The difference between Z and Super is that in Z, it was a personal matter between the Z fighters and villains, i.e vengeance, protection, etc. And someone died in each arc, which made the whole series intense. In addition, to beat the villain, the fighters had to tap into higher power by necessity. The battles were intense with a feel of dread and hopelessness at the beginning.
On the other hand, in Super, there was no personal motives to be stronger other than “I need to fight a strong opponent”… ok for what? No one died, no imminent danger, villains become allies, they have help from whis, beerus and zeno, etc. Villains are not scary, no intense periods, build ups were minimal, etc. And it didn’t seem like the fighters gave their all to beat the villains.
The closest to a Z villain would have been black goku/zamasu until the end part. They could have made it more interesting if it was like the androids/Cell arc.
All in all, Z is for adults and Super is for kids who watch Pokémon, Yugiho, PJ Mask, etc. Hence we couldn’t feel the seriousness in Super.
Z felt organic; Super felt like plastic, made in china.
You can't say protection as a point because goku and the fighters were fighting beerus, jiren and the other universes, moro and black to protect their ppl as well.
Trunks came back for goku and vegetas help after his mother and girl had just been killed (well he thought she died). He was there not just for protection but vengeance.
The z fighters fought in the top to protect their universe from destruction and ultimately others as well (in the end).
They fought moro for the same reason as well. And to honor a friend who died (merus).
Granolah fought for vengeance against people who he wrongfully directed his anger to. And goku and vegeta fought him because they were tricked by the heeters into thinking he was an enemy (and because they wanted a fight).
Vegeta fought beerus in the beginning of super to protect his family and get revenge for his wife (when beerus hit her).
Broly fought goku and vegeta because he was manipulated into it (goku even tells him not to fight if he doesn't want to, because he ultimately saw that his heart wasn't evil).
And yes z had deaths but they were easily reversed by getting the dragonballs (even if piccolo died, they have the ones on namek). Krillin died twice and that should've been the end of him but no, they brought him back.
I personally don't have much of a problem with the villians in DBS. I guess we do have more antagonists, but I honestly still like characters like Beerus, Hit, and Granolah. And the villain-villains are just as great to me. Frieza, while not being as intimidating as he was on Namek, still has a lot to enjoy about his character and especially the stakes he brings due to his untrustworthiness. Goku Black and Zamasu had a very interesting philosophy and motivation and the sheer destruction he brought was permanently impactful, made even more intriguing by the fact that he technically has a pure heart. Then there's Moro, a very powerful and dangerous magical villain, which was a nice addition to the roster of villains, his fight with Goku was absolutely brutal and the sheer despiration of him trying to absorb the Earth itself shows how dangerous he can be.
Tien & Piccolo jr are also “antagonists” fans still call them villains in their arcs
Hit & Granola are probably the only 2 real good ones, Beerus kinda got ruined by his infinitely raising power now above MUI which is an asspull.
Now with “real” villains that also becomes a problem you know part of the reason why Freeza wasn’t intimidating coming back ? An Angel or GoD could just one shot him easily, it’s hard to take even the well written villains seriously when you also have things like the Zeno button to delete everything.
@@DADRB0B55 frieza was never going to be intimidating coming back even back in z. He was not as intimidating when he came to earth just to get one shot by trunks.
nujabes bgm is a big W. subbed
great video bro
Nice video
Moro and black are actually good villains
I didn't like Black that much. His arc is just a long fight against Goku and Vegeta with a bit of future Trunks.
A good handful of people don't like Goku Black....
@@truthspreader1996most people like Goku black and zamasu even if they have problems with their arc
@@ausgod538 I heard of some love for Zamasu but I gotta tell you the news around Black is pretty negative.
More is fr just "oh no main boo but lamer"
Goku black started great but didnt cook enough to be an icon like he needed more fights like being jumped by Goku, Vegeta and Trunks at once, battle damaged costume, seeing him getting to his corner but zamazu kinda was there to make sure he was safe with his imortality and fusion so he fell off flat afterwards, Morro started great as concept and became a cell ripoff with fusion and senzu bean. JIREN IS NOT A VILLIAN.
I guess the only real villain in Super (the anime) was Zamasu, and even he felt like what he was doing was for 'the greater good'. He was insane, but he never considered himself purposely evil lik Freeza or Cell would, and Buu was pretty much evil taken form.
I'm thinking the only real villains for Super (other than Zamasu), were ironically in the manga, Moro and Gas.
Zamasu was a great villain, I was hoping for a more dramatic saga at the begining of Super and it perfectly matched my expectations.
Zamas and Moro are good villains. Hell even Granolah was a good antagonist until he got upstaged
Revealing a multiverse and clearly showing that there are beings worlds above the main cast takes away from the stakes since they can clean up the mess when they feel like it
I generally agree with your point. Dragon Ball Super's villains more are villains of circumstance rather than true villains that need to be dealt with. Obviously Moro is an exception and is my favorite villain of the Super series. I'd even put Moro above Buu as a villain. Granted they are above some OG DB and most GT villains like Pilaf and Super 17. Although antagonists to Goku aren't really a problem as I loved Broly in DBS Broly movie and how his fight was more spurred on by Paragus and then Frieza killing Paragus.
Villains like Freiza, Tao Pai Pai, Demon King Piccolo, Vegeta, and Baby stood out for a reason. Not only were they powerful, they gave some incredible fights that forced Goku to push himself to the limit otherwise he risks losing everything he loves
So are you saying that you don't like sympathetic villains?
@@zacharyarons6950 Not really
@@crestofhonor2349 What's the issue with all those "Villains of circumstance?"
@@zacharyarons6950 Sympathetic VIllains are fine but in dbs its way too overdone
@@zacharyarons6950 Dragon ball as a series doesnt suit sympathetic villains too well apart from some like broly
Black and Moro are pretty good villians. But an issue they can’t change is the fact that you have Beerus who is stronger than any villain they fight, and a story in super that’s right before the End of Z. So even if Cell or Buu don’t have much depth they are written as the end boss which raises the tension
zamasu was aight tbh
moro is peak for dbs till now
If Moro ever gets an anime adaptation it's going to be so hype. He's honestly my favorite villain in the whole series
It seems to me that in super everything is controlled and playful, zeno could repair any mistake and win for the cast, beerus and whis can help etc it s like staged
Super has better stories. Z would take up to 20 chapters just start a fight with a henchman let alone the main villain. Jiren is not a villain he is a competitor in a tournament.
I 100% agree though I think the problems with Zamasu have more to do with his ending rather than the beginning
a lot of the problem is in most of Super there are no actual bad guys. beerus and jiren are NOT evil. then the 2 actual evil bad guys are frieza, which is just a Z bad guy and Goku Black, which is just evil Goku. now in the manga we have Moro and Gas, which are bad guys but, they kinda suck. Moro is decent but i did not really like Gas at all. and even then the arc ends with Frieza anyway so its like who even give a shit about Gas now. even in the films Broly is NOT evil, the Gammas are NOT evil and Cell Max is just a mindless monster thats not even a real character. all of the bad guys from DBZ where actual characters who were actually legitimately evil, Super has very little of this.
I think the villains in DBS have been pretty great, with the best being Moro and Goku Black. I like the direction they are going with, by including a few pure evil villains (Moro, Frieza, Goku Black) and then having a few sympathetic/misunderstood antagonists (Jiren, Granolah, Gas, Broly, etc). It's a more unique direction then every antagonist being straight up evil
You can argue that gas is more evil than kid buu since gas knows what he is doing
Gas isn't sympathetic bros just braindead
@@herohunter5961 gas is not braindead as he knew what he wanted to do and that was to help his brother no matter what and kill the saiyans and granolah even if it cost him his life.
I would say dbz had villains and dbs had opps
If you dont count Zamasu (Black) there is non in super...and i kinda like it....most of the Super was spinning around the tournament of Power and why would you need a villain in there ? Isnt that obvious that in tournament of power betwen universes will be strongest mortals you can find in every single universe? It was nice at once to see that there are just fighters with their own reasons why they want to survive and not only watch another super mega giga strong villain after another trying to wipe out galaxy..
Valid points all throughout the video up until you got to Super's problems imo.
Not labelling Zamasu as a villain is bizarre, he was going to commit mass genocide/extinction and impose tyranny. Hitler had ideals too, following them does not make you immune to being evil.
And then you touched on villains vs. antagonists. Anything to do with Beerus, Hit, Jiren, or Granolah for sure need to be evaluated differently. Personally I think this is something DBS does well. The "pure evil for no reason" shtick cant be repeated forever. The antagonists in DBS may not be as "good" as the ones in DBZ, but they are much less black and white which is a major improvement to the writing and story.
Honestly it's about the setting there's a before and after every villain was defeated in DBZ. There was the Frieza force era, then the red ribbon army resurgence, then the majins and the kais who the z fighters overcame. In DBS the villains feel like they were just there because and it feels like there's no effect on the story because well everything's already defined at the end of z. If there was an angel rebellion against GoDs and mortals like in Kakumei DBS would be changed significantly in the plot and there'd be a before and after making the story much more significant.
Yes Zamasu and Goku Black were villains. Just because they saw their vision as pure and right doesn't change that. The Z fighters have been fighting people caused the same kind of carnage for ages. Those two killed everyone in their way for their vision of a pure world while Cell Frieza and Buu did it for fun but the difference in motive doesn't really change the fact that that's some villainous stuff. IMO those two are great villains in the world of dragonball but the way the arc ended was ass, kinda taking away how good everything before it was. The others you mentioned (Hit and Jiren) were just antagonists like you said a kin to Tien in og dragonball just fighting in a tournament. Beerus can go either way as he was such a major threat to the world of dragonball as we know it but he was too chill leading up to the climactic fight to be considered a real villain.
Super's villians are cool yes but kinda one note one trick ponies. Zamasu was the most interesting as he was a Kai gone rouge.
Now, IMO Black Frieza is the dumbest most half brained idea that has come out of the franchise. The final villain should have been an Angel that has been corrupted almost in the same vain as Zamasu. Frieza should have been revived yes but at the same time should have just been pushed into the background. Maybe he shows up svery now and then to witness Goku's and Vegeta's feats and takes notes. How would a Arc as Black Frieza realistically conclude? Will Goku defeat Frieza yet again? Its just become a stale contrast of yin and yang. If anything for goodness sake let Vegeta have the win when I honestly feel like a creation such as Black Frieza is unbeatable. Unless (which this is the only way I can see a win for the Z fighters) Goku and Vegeta fuse releasing Ultra Instinct. I fear Black Frieza will unfortunately make Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast look like fodder.
Personally, I disagree. This is more of a video on "Why Dragon Ball Z villains are better" than "The Problem with Villains in Dragon Ball Super". I agree that Dragon Ball Z had better villains, but Super also had great villains as well. And since it was a different series from Z, the formula for the villains had to be different. In Dragon Ball Z, antagonists like Frieza, Cell and Buu were evil just for plot or just for the sake of being evil. The antagonists in Super like Goku Black and Jiren, are against the protagonists and believe in a lie, but they believe they're doing the right thing.
Dragon Ball Z mag be considered all around better than Super, but that comparison makes people overlook the things Super did right. The villains in Super shouldn't be compared with the ones in Z, because outside of that comparison, the Dragon Ball Super antagonists were very great.
Beerus was a villain whom Goku and Vegeta spend several sagas trying to catch up to and surpass and introduced a whole new realm of power.
Goku Black was a very evil and sadistic villain that gave fans what they wanted to see, that they being an evil Goku. He had a very good reason for wanting to kill everyone, and the Black Saga in general is very good. The soundtracks, the battles, the plot and so many scene like Vegito's return were all great. But whenever someone criticizes the Goku Black Saga, they'll immediately compare it's flaws to what Dragon Ball Z did right which I don't think is fair.
Jiren may be argued to a plot device, But Goku really did have to fight and do everything to catch up with him.
Dragon Ball Super is great in my opinion.
I feel like Zamasu/Goku Black is a pretty iconic villain from the new era of Dragon Ball tho.
Moro and Gas/Heathers are still pretty unknown for the fact that they're manga only characters.
Most people don't read the manga.
pokémon music caught me off guard great shit
People saying Zamasu isn’t evil when he takes genuine pleasure in torturing and murdering people.
I think Super is missing a villain that has lots of minions to cause trouble to not only Goku and Vegeta, but the rest of the good guys as well (think of the ginyu force, turles allies, cooler squad etc). It would keep the viewer entertained wondering what everyone would do next. Because Goku is having way, WAY TOO MUCH ADVANTAGE, to the point nobody is surprised anymore that he wins. It's been a long time since we saw someone leading a group to battle the good guys. And this would also bring the classic, serious leader type Goku that we saw in Z.
I still wish we knew what Nappa would say if he could see the world today.
Bro! I get some of the points you make, and I know DBS has its problems, but you SEVERLY under-played Zamasu! Yeah, he's not just a dark force of evil like Frieza or Cell, but if you watch or read the Goku Black Arc I think it can be easily deduced that he is VERY CLEARLY a villain! Yes, the arc had a terrible ending, and Frieza might be fun to watch because he's just a tyrant for the fun of it (and he is still my favorite DB antagonist), but Zamasu was such a W! He had an actual motive this time while still being ruthless and disgustingly evil! And before anyone tries to argue about how flawed his philosophy was, that was the entire point! Trunks even points out how much Zamasu contradicts himself during their fight, because Zamasu is a psychopath! There are plenty of people in the fandom who put him up there with the big three of DBZ because he was actually a good antagonist!
I think it has a lot to do with the characters introductions too.
Raditz is under Vegeta and he is under Frieza. This is all established really early on. Cell is a oart of the Red Ribbon Army which we knew to be a threat to kid goku. Like, it's always built on established lore in the show. Even Berus just comes out of nowhere. Buu suffers from this too but its a lot easier to dismiss since it was the first time Toriama did it.
I believe there is no wait Super's villains, because they were rushed out to the market. The characters need to something else during their arc, whether that be enjoying peace before the villain shows up or fighting their minions or other minor villains first.
I like how Beerus is considered "not a villain" just because he's a god and he doesn't want to destroy earth at this time.
The best way to craft a villain is to layout what makes them evil or what motivations would drive them to do evil.
Dragon Ball's villains worked simply because many of them had common goals involving supremacy and sometimes vengeance.
Dragon Ball Z's villains worked simply because they were always evil & posed a much bigger threat to all life, Piccolo was the first of the major villains to embody that trait despite first appearing in Dragon Ball.
As far as Dragon Ball Super goes, the only villains that come close to those layouts other than Frieza were Moro and The Heeters.
Goku black was clearly a villain dawg...knock it off. Personally i have no major issues with the antagonists in super. They don't all have to be inherently evil all the time, it was a good change up from the typical.
moro got the things you described from 6:25 to 6:49. Why he is not a great villain?
They could easily stall the whole power up thing by creating a new character that eventually gets involved with the Z cast…by also introducing a whole new villain.
I'm not sure I agree with the criticism. Your problem is that the antagonists in Super don't follow a similar formula to Z villains.
I see this as a good thing, not a bad thing. It would have gotten stale if Super's antagonists were like Z villains. Zamasu/Goku Black was especially a breath of fresh air, because he was a villains who saw himself as righteous. Dragon Ball was severely lacking in this tyoe of villain.
I don’t think Dragon Ball needs anymore "just plain evil" villains anymore.
I think the thing is most fans love Dragonball Z villains/hero/story that of classic Dragonball. Although it's same Manga but from Saiyan Saga, the story and character writing took a whole different stage.
Dragonball Super was written in a similar way to original dragonball and not Dragonball Z. Most antagonist in Dragonball were not big time villain like Freeza, Cell, Buu. Actually Piccolo and somewhat Red Ribbon Army where the big villains of the DB story. Most other villains/antagonist like Pilaf, Tien, mercenary Tao were written as characters before villain. Hit is similar to Roshi/Jackie Chan in 21st world martial arts tournament as his purpose was to show the growth of Goku's power after his training with Roshi. Tien was similar to Jiran as they have significant character development during their fight against Goku.
If you think about it, every ark from dragon ball Z is just goku fights, gets decommissioned, comes back stronger to fight the bigger badder person
I have to disagree. I really like DBS villains. The writing is definetly mediocre, but the concept is really good.
It changes the narrative from ever villain being evil to the "villain" not really being a villain, more so there is a conflict of interest, so it proposes a moral dilemma. The on real villains in DBS so far were Zamasu and Moro (and Frieza of you count him), the others were just antagonists.
Jiren was fighting to save his Universe and Granolah and Gas wanted to take revenge on the Sayans a Frieza and their motives were absolutely valid.
I think it creates a more i teresting narrative because it's not black and white thinking, there isn't a clear good and evil
About the whole: "is Zamasu a villain or an antagonist"?
What I think the point is, is that MORTALS would look at Zamasu as evil. He sees himself as the universe's hero by purifying it from it's greatest sin and failure. Since we got his point of view and philosophy too, not just Trunks's experience, the whole "he is evil" - "he is not evil" discussion is controversial.
He believes in his goal but his ways and deeds are absolutely horrofying.
he feels like "the end justifies the means" kind of guy.
Some people would view him as antagonist for his own idea of the "perfect world" and the fact that his actions are not as mean spirited as they seem to us, since we are too inferior to understand him fully, while others would emphasize his misdeeds and crimes against living creatures just for existing, "as the villain he is".
That is why his whole character is wonderful to me! He's not another COMPLETELY irredeemable villain or another pure evil as portrayed in Z. (as seen in the manga, he was questioning his own actions and belifes for a brief moment while he was lectured by Gowasu, which shows a little chance for a change in him.)
he has more layers and is more complex, with more depth than seen on the surface.
And he didn't do it to show how strong he is, to flex his power or for the sake of killing, nor did he ignore his feelings. He took matters to his own hands and took action for the greater good as he sees it.
What he did is both GOOD and BAD rather than taking a simple path.
It's all just a matter of perspective.
As I see it, he did earn the place in the "villain" category.
You are allowed to disagree, and forgive me if there are spelling or grammer mistakes.
Thank you for reading!
7:35 gas is a villain
Dbs Villains: 🚫
Ops:☑️
OP villains suck. Just slap a goofy laugh on them and call them evil 😂
Naruto:✔️
@@Fazbearingtonthe3rd You mean the villains that get reformed by a 16 year old? Nah
Good one
W Nujabes background music
I dont think theres an issue with the antagonists of super. They are not all meant to be villain's. Antagonists are not exclusively "bad guys" Dengen in Frerien is an antagonist during the first part of the mage exam. Hit is not a villian, jiren isnt either. Moro was. Goku black and Zamasu 100% were. They didnt do anything wrong, but they were. I think a lot of super hasnt been actually fighting evil. Its been just setting up the multiverse. 3 of the major arcs are centered around another universe. TOP, Goku Black was from U10, and the U6 v U7.
Exactly I stopped taking this guy seriously the moment he said buu is a better antagonist than anyone in super😂😂😂
We heard about jiren way before we seen him in action so they tried it
Hmmm I suppose the biggest problem I have with the main antagonist of Super is the lack of a fulfilling and concise ending for each major arc. I'd say most of the villains start off strong, interesting and impactful, but wane as the series progresses until their ending felt unsatisfying.
Goku Black created so much massive intrigue that fans couldn't stop speculating about who he was, how Goku turned out Evil and how were things going to progress. However once it was revealed it was Zamasu inside of Goku's body, fused with an alt timeline Zamasu and then became so powerful Trunks's entire timeline had to be erased, making his entire journey up to that point in Z, pointless left a bad taste in many people's mouths. He wasn't defeated by a protagonist, Vegito's fusion was not only retconned, but also extremely shortlived to the point of having no purpose to the story and let's be real here, Zamasu didn't have much interesting to say.
Moro was kind of in the same boat. Guy started off incredibly interesting. He was a fighter who didn't rely on martial arts or brawling to win, but his magic and creativity. He used the environment of the planet he was on to fight, which was extremely different from prior protagonists that came before, making him extremely unique. This is on top of his incredible design that, while humanoid, was more anthro than anything else, helping him feel more alien compared to the Z-Fighters. However his motivations was very poor to the point where many don't remember what his ultimate goal real was, the wish he made that had many fans on edge for months on end, turned out to be something extremely lame and mondane where a magical reality altering dragon really wasn't needed to make it a reality and the way he got humiliated by Goku near the end left most fans going "Meh" from what I was told.
Then there's Jiren, who started off somewhat intriguing as well, but the more that was revealed about him, the more boring and lame he felt. He started off as this strong, mysterious and imposing figure that even most other Gods of Destruction feared for his power, that he had this massively tragic backstory that made most afraid to talk about it, but its later revealed he's a guy who was orphaned at a young age by a space-pirate, then had his master and friends killed by said space-pirate again, only to then think that because people around him kept dying, that he could only rely on himself.... I guess? No one hears a backstory that generic and thinks "Aww man, so cool and deep. I've never heard that before for a character." Its lame and by-the-books for a stoic character. Jiren wasn't even betrayed so his mistrust in others don't feel valid. It would make more sense if he was afraid of connecting with others simply because he's so used to experiencing death that he's jaded by the idea of companionship that will never last.
Either way, the villains tend to start off strong, but slowly drag to a finish that feels dissatisfying in many ways. I could have gone far deeper but don't want to write even more of an essay than I already did. When the payoff for a antagonist doesn't linger, doesn't feel satisfying or enticing, no one cares or bothers to remember.
Hit is the best “villain” in super if you could even call him that
As much as I dislike DBS as a whole, I will say that Zamasu (as well as Goku black and fused) was a pretty neat villain, his believes may have been twisted and Gowasu was sort of the catalyst for causing the whole thing, but I enjoyed how much more racist he can be over Frieza
He couldn't have been redeemed, his only goal was to exterminate all mortals, and it was pretty refreshing to see an irredeemable villain
The heck black goku,Moro are famous villain
Dragon ball super has villains like Black, Zamasu and Moro
So yeah villains do exist in it
Most of this video is just recap of the series which I already seen a million times🙄 I would have preferred a more direct comparison of the two series cause you do have a point that the Super villains are different. The new villains are more complex compared to the usual evil for evils sake villains dragon ball usually has
Other than Goku Black the super villains don’t have a villain presence to them whatsoever
Now I’m ngl I love DBZ more than super but to say super villains aren’t on par with Z is not correct first off there is really only 1 villain in super and that’s Zamasu/Goku Black everyone else was not a villain but just a wall that had to be overcome so I wouldn’t say Hit or Jiren are villains because they are fighting the Z fighters as they wouldn’t be fighting if there universes wasn’t on the line by a 3rd party. Zamasu on the other hand is a villain and he has his reasons way more reasons than any of the Z villains.
Frieza was evil because he was the strongest at wanted to conquer everything.
Cell was evil because of his creator designing him to be evil.
Buu was evil because of his creator
Zamasu has his reasons he saw humans as a blight to the universe and flaw that the gods created and wanted to change that I would definitely put Zamasu on the same tier as Z villains if not better than Buu maybe Cell. And I like Z more than super and I can admit this.
For the record my series ranking goes
Z
Super
DB
GT
Gas
rose black
zamasu
moro cell max
Red ribbon
Excluding
(broly/granolah/frieza/jiren/beerus)
I mean, Cell had a motivation too - he wasn't only limited to his programming from Dr. Gero, but looked beyond that, to what he'd do next once he got those androids absorbed. Cell didn't really CARE about killing Goku specifically - that was Dr. Gero's concern - instead, Cell's Frieza and King Cold DNA came out and he planned to move on to other planets after earth, conquering and terrifying the universe - out of pure boredom with being so strong he had no equals in battle once he'd destroyed the earth. IF he had won, the only one in the universe who would pose a threat to him one day would be Beerus or Broly - and he'd be unlikely to ever meet either. Buu would never be revived, and Cell would have the same ability as Frieza, to both get FAR stronger from a minor amount of training and survive in space, he'd live basically forever, and unlike Frieza he has saiyan DNA telling him to TRAIN and get stronger. So one day, Cell may have gone well beyond SSJ blue level with very little effort on his part.
And that's the thing - CELL is carrying Vegeta AND Goku's DNA with him - which means he has the same motivators THEY do - to fight and get strong and to fight for sport and fun (the whole reason he HAD the Cell games) - and Frieza's cruelty and arrogance and desire for conquest. So he had TWO big drivers behind his actions. Dr. Gero's dream was just a stepping stone to ambitions Gero never dreamed when creating him. Dr. Gero only wanted to kill Goku to get revenge for what he did to his Red Ribbon Army - he couldn't have imagined Cell would instead say "let's play a game" and then if he won, destroy the whole planet and fly off to destroy countless others in his search for a good fight.
After all, Dr. Gero, you have to remember, did NOT intend on destroying the earth. He was still ALIVE until 17 killed him - and he had no intention of killing himself, so Cell deciding to destroy earth was way beyond what he had intended from him. If 17 had not killed Gero, Cell would have, the moment he tried to give him orders. That whole "destroy the earth" thing was the Frieza in him.
I think it’s because before we didn’t just rely on goku. We’d rely on every one. Of course goku was superior to krillin, but we still needed every drop of help. Now days it’s like we’re only relying on goku and vegeta.
You are wrong. DB was all about power levels almost from the beginning. At first it was supposed to be an adventure comedy, later Toriyama slowly shifted his focus on adventure part. About Red Ribbon Army stakes got real, introduction of Piccolo Daimao already changed the series entirely. The rest, the progress was a simple power escalation.
And during tournaments power levels mattered too, but the biggest difference was that fighters were more evenly matched so they had to rely on their tricks and techniques to gain a leverage over their opponents. In Z part of the story, techniques didn't disappeared: There was Kaioken, Kienzan, Genki Dama, KI Control, Kamikadze Frieza Ball, etc.
I agree that Earthlings became irrelevant, and that could be fixed, but it wasn't power levels fault.
Moro's design is so wack. Bro literally looks like a fanmade character. Only good DBS villain was Zamasu
Another issue I have is the lack of originality in Moro. He is just so lame. For one his design didnt really feel like a Toriyama villain to me, and second, him just become a bad Cell clone completely took away his agency as a villain. Down to how the fights played out. Like come on.
I know it’s from Pokémon, but song at 5:22 ?
Beerus was cool before turning into a friend
Jiren was not a villain but antagonist and we had to wait a pretty long time to see him fight
I believe super can't truly have any villans because they introduced the strongest beings and the strongest being Zeno so you have a sense of security that nothing will go wrong and villains can't actually be developed long term
The funny thing about this conversation is that is shows the real issue with super overall. It's exactly like you said, super doesn't have true villains, just antagonists to Goku. One exception is Goku black, and funny enough, when having the conversation of which arc in super is the best, most will say the Goku Black arc, which is also the only arc with an actual villain. See how that works? Super was still enjoyable, but imo, it's the weakest out of all dragon ball arcs, and lacking actual worth while villains is a main reason. And no, I will not accept Jiren as a villain, he's not even close to being a villain.🤷♂️
It went from show into advertising show
Granolah could've been such an interesting character with vegeta. Both were manipulated by people who used their power over them to make them do as they wanted.
Except Gas compared to frieza just becomes a mid mindless fight machine, wouldve been alot better if Elec stole Gas' power using his ability ( which i just created he has nothing special ) because Elec is more interesting, someone selfish with no care for anyone even if hes been with them for decades. The way he manipulated Gas was cool but it led nowhere. And then freiza shows up and kill all the tension for shock factor sake. Such a shame for a pretty decent arc untill Gas arrived.