Hey Chris congratulations on another great video! Your resilience and positive nature is always evident and I agree fully with your comments and your choice of boat. You and Tanja took a massive hit just one year after purchasing your dream boat. Instead of being permanently dismayed and angry at the world you pushed on determined to live your dream..... Now your using that period of misfortune to honestly and openly let others see how the repair process takes place to everyone’s benefit......All I can say is - Thank you
Thanks Paul, comments like these really mean a lot to us and keep us going. Sometimes on the channel the only things you hear are what you did wrong and sometimes get's a little tired. Very nice to hear something different, appreciate it. No point in moping around about the damage/repair I guess, just gotta move on and make the most of it. I hope all is well with your sailing life also. Cheers, Chris and Tanja
@@SailingAurora I really appreciate the the time and effort that goes into making this sort of content and respect you both for being transparent as possible on an open platform like TH-cam. It's just the Aussie in me that I have to learn to stop taking up the fight when I see the thoughtless comments posted by some of the armchair admirals. I think it's great to have a different point of view and to discuss points of view but some people seem to forget that there are real people invested both financially and emotionally in the discussion. Not only that but they have the privilege of having that discussion thanks to the person that is invested in it! My sailing life is going well. I have our boat on a swing mooring out the front of our house, I am located on Lake Macquarie, NSW, Australia. The lake is so large that you can sail all day and not see that same place twice or you can head out to sea and keep on going..... Pop in when your down under and we will have a beer together :)
Absolutely spot on! Every comment addressed, every one of your thoughts made clear. We are not sure how far ahead you are with progress vs filming but here are a couple of thoughts that may help you out. The limber holes from bilge compartment to compartment; If you have the opportunity, glass in plastic tubes so any water goes from compartment to compartment. Not into the matrix frame where it takes forever to remove. We did a video on bilge pumps. We came to the conclusion that we wanted an alarm that notified us if water was in the bilge regardless... We fitted moisture alarms in the bilges in addition to auto bilge pumps. Should the worst happen and lets say you hit a submerged container on an ocean crossing.... By adding latteral force strengthening from the keel to the matrix frame it is just about impossible for the keel to "fall off", Cheeki Rafiki style. By adding two simple Stainless Steel angle plates from the top of the keel plates to the matrix frame. Our frame has internal wood laminate reinforcement (plywood) But after reading the MCA report on the Cheeki Rafiki, we added these custom made parts for around £200. PM us and we will send you photos and cad drawings. Again, cracking video. Any help or thoughts we can offer should you need them just shout us! Sail Safe Guys, Ant, Cid & the pooch crew.
Wow! Awesome advice guys, thanks. After this I will be laying off any work to do with the grid for a while but if you have the time, please send over some info about the plates, I will drop you a PM. Good idea with the plastic tubes, the issue is the water sometimes comes through other channels behind the engine so it's easier if it ends up inside the grid and then I can suck it out. Great idea though, it it works in your boat, fantastic. As for the bilge pumps, it's a good idea with the alarms, will definitely be adding that also, even a system that will SMS me when I am not on the boat. I hope to catch up a little more with your channel but there is so much going on at the moment :) I hope you are well in these covid times. Again, really appreciate the advice. Cheers, Chris
Hanse, Jeanneau, and Beneteau all build good boats. Yes, they are all built to a cost and that it is okay. With proper care all of these boats will serve their owners well. My Beneteau First 265 has served me well since 1994. I grounded my boat once many years ago on Lake Michigan and I did not have any issues with the grid being damaged. Granted, I hit sand, not rock. Even custom built have issues with a bad grounding, Nigel Calder hit bottom with his Malo sailboat and it had extensive damage. Custom or production boats can suffer damage. I've looked at the Hanse 348 and really like it, but may go with a Jeanneau 349 as my next boat. If I could afford one I would either get a Hallburg Rassy or a Sunbeam yacht. The repair to your boat is looking great sir, enjoy many years on the water with her once she's launched again.
Hi Eric. Thank you so much, we are really looking forward to get her back in the water and for a new season in the Stockholm Archipelago. And you are absolutely right with a bad grounding all boats have issues. Good luck on finding your next boat, and happy sailing. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Thank you Chris for an interesting episode. I actually grounded my Linjett 32 (built at Rosättra Boatyard) when captain (me) and crew all tried to solve an hoist issue with the main sail. Thus, everybody was involved and no one was looking at navigational chart. There was "only" one rock in the bay, and of course we hit that. One propeller blade lost when we tried to revers out. It was not a to bad hit, maybe 2-3 knots. We sailed into the Bullandö marina later that day. There were no hull integrity damages and we got an upgrade to our prop by the insurance. So lesson learned, always have one person take charge and focus only on the navigation, directly after pulling up the anchor. I also enjoy the story telling part of your channel (I'm Swedish). Locking forward to every episode and what wonderful anchorages you find. Congrats to you and Tanja for a refreshing good sailing channel. Cheers.
Sounds like an interesting story. In England we call situations like this "Sods law", sometimes meaning that something will go wrong at the worst possible time. I've hear Linjett have been making swinging keels now that are really resistant to groundings. There is a video of a Linjett hitting the rocks on TH-cam at 8 knots with no damage if you haven't seen it already, pretty good idea. Sounds like you got lucky when you hit the rocks though, good for you :) Thanks for the compliment, maybe see you out on the water. Skål, Chris
Congrats!!! These videos are really amazing. It is knot easy making these kind of videos, specially on our own boat..... Big Congrats and keep them coming!
Thanks very much. It's not easy making the videos, the technical ones are a little easier though, it depends on how far you want to go with them. Happy that you are enjoying them :)
Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge about the keels on production boats Chris. That’s my one concern about buying one. I’ve been looking for a Luders (US) sloop that was built in 1959 using diagonally laid up 1/4 inch cold molded plywood strips embedded in epoxy. Not sure of the framing connection to the hull on this type of construction. Need to study this more. Doesn’t have all the comforts of the newer boats but can take a grounding much better. Full keel design obviously. Will still probably settle for a newer production boat in the end. Thanks again for sharing.
The Hanse 418 is a great yacht and Aurora will be better than new. Thanks Chris for a very informative video. Don’t charter her as no one looks after her better than you. Here’s to sailing around the world one day😊 Best regards P&J
Thanks Peter, once again appreciate comments like these. Just can't wait for summer now and your right about the charter. It hurt us a lot last year, I know it's only a boat but for us it's something very special and we enjoy taking the best care of here. All the best, Chris & Tanja
I don't know, being an east coast of Scotland sailor where it's guaranteed the water will disappear and if you're 2 minutes late getting back "home" it is pretty normal to bounce off a few rocks on the way back to the mooring. Never had any issues with delamination, keel pressure. My boat was built in the late 70s before CAD was available. Maybe consider owning an older boat instead of getting a mortgage which costs you thousands after 1 year (2019 -> 2020). Seriously why not go back to the company that built the boat using basic consumer rights?
i completely agree with your comment on the vinylester bonder to the hull. It's plenty strong for its purpose - heck even windmill blades are glued together with it! And yes it's brittle, because that's where you get compressive strength, which is exactly what you would want between the hull and the grid. Think of it the same way as when using balsa core between 2 laminates. Balsa is cut and laid end grain, because of its compressive strength in that direction. The idea of a Sandwich construction is to have flexible layers on both sides of a non compressive core. Flexible hull - rock hard vinylester - flexible grid = perfect sandwich construction. In my opinion it's not even worse than "hand built" its an upgrade from it! Especially when you witness the damage on a "rigid hand built" hitting a rock at those speeds as i have. This is salvageable because it's built much like a car with compression zones - hand builds are not. Compare wrecking in a brand new Vw to a Ford T Ohh and bttw, your boy there certainly know what he's doing, in case that wasn't obvious to you.
Hi there. Thank you so much for your comment and explanation. This subject have certainly created a lot of debate, which is great:-) Yes, Patrick is really good and very experienced, it's a joy to watch. Cheers, Cris & Tanja
Thanks for sharing, the repair process is really fascinating, especially having Expedition Evans to compare and contrast to. When I first saw their damage - I put it down to production boats ‘ cheaping out’ - however my thoughts now are - maybe not. However although I am a Marine Engineer with an appreciation of hull structure I am no Naval Architect. In essence, I do not believe you can design a fin keel boat that is ‘strong’ enough to impact with a rock at 5 + knots without damage. My thoughts now are the grillage has two jobs: To transfer dynamic keel loads evenly to the hull structure and act as support to interior furniture and soles. In essence what appears to be a cheap bonding process may, by design, be entirely adequate to deal with the loads demanded of it. Indeed it may also be acting as a ‘structural fuse’ when subjected to grounding forces to avoid more serious hull damage. Basically you can calculate the energy of the impact, the total surface area of the bonded surfaces and the strength of the binding goo will be part of the product data sheet. The impact energy has to be dissipated somehow. Hopefully a good Naval Architect can chip in and give a view. But probably only Hanse can give the design philosophy and calculations.
I agree. In fact if the matrix didn't give and flex a bit when a grounding occurs there would surely be a greater risk of ripping the keel off - all that energy has to go somewhere! When the matrix failed on my boat last year, she remained afloat on her mooring for 6 weeks before she was hauled out for repairs.
Hi Norman, excellent comment. I had a conversation with a smart guy at the yard the other day and we concluded that the force multiplies a lot with every additional knot added, basically into 100's of tonnes when a grounding happens. You are absolutely right
First of all great choice of boat, I really like it even if I own a Bene myself ;) For your information I know a HR who did a hard grounding in Canaries last year. They had to spend months of repair in Las Palmas after that. I don't think you should focus too much on production/non production boats. The forces on a full speed hard grounding will have a serious impact on any boat, except maybe a full keel where you end up on top of the rock. Thanks for the great videos. I'm also looking forward to see when you start full time/long distance cruising. Cheers!
Thanks Magnus, your right about the groundings, unless the keel is significantly longer with more surface contact to the hull and shallower you will end up with a repair anyways, it's unavoidable. Good advice, I appreciate comments like these, cheers
Great video. Just subscribed. Finally a great description why to use polyester over epoxy. So many people say they would never use polyester over epoxy. HELLO, the boat is built out of polyester! If you think polyester isnt strong enough your on the wrong boat! Just a side note. On the bilge something to consider and always a pet peeve of mine. Why would anyone want to subject and immerse an electric motor to water, especially salt water? Well most bilge pumps do just that. Its a great business for sure, production car mentality. Do t build it to last too long lol. This is my set up. - Big Gulper diaphragm pump (3.7 gal per min.) - bronze scupper with solid state electronic switch attached - one way check valve on scupper end 3/4" connection - 3/4 " hard pvc tube connection up from bilge (3.5 ft deep bilge in keel) - 3/4 " hose to aft lazaret connected to the big gulper mounted to the bulkhead. - 3/4 " hose out of big gulper to through hull in stern above the water line. - pump wired to switch in cabin. Switch has auto-off-on - second float switch placed about 12 " above first switch and connected to "high water in bilge" alarm Ive had this installed for 12 years now and the only thing I replaced was a faulty float switch(went solid state) and bilge on off switch. The pump is easily accessible but I haven't ever needed to do anything to it. Yes more expensive but in the long run much better. That thing will suck anything through too ( screws, bits of cloth, oil, dirt etc) Its a very clean system. Just keep the oil off the solid state sensor and your golden.
Awesome comment Craig, I can see the attraction to epoxy and people are mostly looking at the strength characteristics but that's not everything. Our hull is made from vinylester but I confident the Iso polyester will do great, it's also an upgrade from normal polyester. Looks like you have an awesome pump setup there and seems to last well, taking notes. Cheers, Chris
“If you never ground these boats” point me to a boat thats never been grounded. Im a full or skeg keel kinda guy speed and performance isn’t my thing but definitely a pretty boat, very interesting fix and documentation.
Chris , great video narrative. Lot of progress. About Hanse crossing oceans, I can assure you they are well capable. Keep it up, and keep the videos coming.
Thanks very much, it's nice to get some reassurance sometimes also :) We think she would handle a sea pretty nicely. Glad you are enjoying the channel. Cheers, Chris
And if you hit something smaller than a baby whale on passage the entire boat rigidity is compromised, perfectly capable until something serious happens xD
Good comprehensive video. Kudos for that. As to the bilge pump outflow pipe, you mentioned having an inverted U-tube trap above the heeled water line. Just make sure this is well above the waterline and it is vented to atmosphere with a check valve so that you cannot turn the line into a siphon. You probably have the same setup on other above water outlets on the side of the boat. I'm sure that some of the yacht manufacturing associations have specifications on the dimensions. Don't take my word on this however and check this one with the associations.
Thanks for the complement, appreciated. I will do some research on this a little and have a good look around the boat to see what is possible. Sound advice you are giving there, noted :)
It's a gorgeous boat. I'm sorry for your troubles, but I hope you have safe, joyful travels. THanks for the entertaining and informative video. (As for: Kitchen vs. galley? I'm going to go ahead and guess that English isn't your first language, so if you fall down ever-so-slightly on "nautical English", well, that's not much of a sin.)
Hello guys! Have been following you since the beginning but have not commented earlier. We have read some of the comments on the previous section and feel we need to write something now. Some of the comments you get are so unnecessary and sometimes downright condescending... We really appreciate your channel, you are open with what you know and what you don´t and it really feels like everything is genuine. We think you did exactly the right thing by following your dream and buying your dream boat! In addition, it is incredibly valuable to be able to follow the process when you repair Aurora. So continue with what you are doing, you are really appreciated! Try to remember the compliments and forget the insults (and if you succeed in doing that, tell me how ;) Lots of love! Petter and Chatrin
Hi Chatrin & Petter. Thank you so much for following and for you very kind and warm heartfelt words, cannot tell you how much that means to us! We will follow you advice and we are also trying to get the best out of the situation, by learning as much as we can in the process. We are now half way in the repair (hopefully:-)) and there is light at the end of the tunnel. We cannot wait until Aurora is back in the water and we again can be off on new adventures. Take care and stay safe, Chris & Tanja
Looking good. Was expecting that new glass will go over the structure making everything connected in one peace. (I bet, Patrick knows what he is doing)
Thanks, yup they have done many repairs like this, he has been with Plastskador for over 10 years. the grid itself is strong, so no need. Just need to get it to be strong against the hull. BR Chris
About the bilge pump. My opinion is, that if you ever need that size of pump to run. A seacock is the most anoying thing to be faffing about with. I would run the outlet a fair bit above waterline, with a u bend and one way valve. But it needs to be the choice that you are most comfortable with :)
Great advice, as soon as I get access to the bathroom and have a better look around it will help me make a decision. I think you could be right there, probably no point with a seacock on the fitting. Decisions, decisions....
Question: I understand why you start the lamination with a couple of layers of 900g chop-strand followed by triaxial. But why do you (Patrick) repeat the process after curing, again with chop-strand + triaxial, instead of continuing with i.e. 3 layers of triaxial. Adding the chop-strand on top of the cured and fairly smooth surface of triaxial will just potentially introduce air pockets and/or complicate the lay-up. What am I missing?
If i had to take an unqualified guess, i would guess it's because of the compressive strength of the chop, and the tensile strength of the biaxial - Laying them alternating you create a Sandwich construction within the laminate.
Look at MJ sailing on U tube they are also constructing their Multihull the same way as explained in the comments as it makes the hull and bulkheads stronger !
As you say; the perennial balance. Production plastic and bolted vs older long keel. I saw a wonderful center cockpit long keel example from the 70's that I keep lusting for. Then I found that it has a balsa sandwich HULL. Now I'm just very conflicted.
Hi Patrick. Thank you so much for your kind words! We are just working out the financial details, but we hope not. Chartering is for sure paused for 2021, but hopefully never again. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
What do you think about the installation forward-looking sonar, maybe this will help to avoid such situations. Оr is it expensive to install and does not justify the cost?
I think you nay have been spying on me :) I have just bought a forward scan sonar, it will be fitted at the end of the repair process. It is fairly expensive, it costs around €700, but I think it could be worth it. The installation will be quite easy on our boat as the hull just in front of the keel is almost level with the waterline, it's just a question of drilling a hole and installing the throughhull well. I don't think it will work to well undersail and moving a fast speeds but it will be great using it going into unknown harbours or poorly charted areas. Especially around here in Stockholm where there are a lot of rocks. Watch this space, I will do a review on this. Cheers, Chris
Having a beutiful classic sailing yacht, Nicolson design, with a long keel stem to stern, which to me is the perfect design. The modern fin keel with bolts into the skeleton matrix supports, to me is awful and so prone to damage as we see in this video. If your buying a sailing yacht always go traditional long keel yacht safe and secure in a very unforgiving sea!
Great to see some progress Chris. Will you be putting her back into Charter afterwards or taking a breather? Hard I suppose if your using the income to offset the marina costs. One tip for the saildrive. If you took it down to bare metal -best treatment is alodine before coating application but wear gloves. One of my yachts is aluminium - painting ally is a pain unless its deoxidised and converted.
Hi there, thanks for the comment. It's tough to say at the moment, if a grounding were to happen again and take another sailing year away from us, I don't know what we would do. This may sound stupid, but It's really our passion and we have to think about our mental health also. We can live without the charter income, would be nice to have but not essential. Good tips on the sail drive, aluminium can be funny indeed, will have to look it up. All the best, Chris
I see in the previous video your guy had to drill those backing plates out (where the keel bolt washers/nuts sit), to be able to move the keel bolts. Were those backing plates replaced?
Hi, the keel bolts run through holes in the keel plate, these holes are slightly bigger so the keel can be alligned exactly with the boat. It's been a while since this was done so you are testing my memory a little. when the bolts come up through the holes sikaflex is put between the hull and keel and a special glass compound is set in the holes around the bolts. The nuts are then put on and tightened down. I hope that answers your question. Cheers, Chris
I see the only way to avoid potential groundings is to get a swing keel such as on the Southerly’s. Fortunately, I’m only in the “what would I buy one day if” stage. Our 6’5” keel often causes me concern... so far we’ve only had 2 soft/slow groundings!
Yup, would definitely think about buying one of those if they weren't so darned expensive. They are build like tanks though according to Sailing Ruby Rose. We had 1 soft grounding at around 1 knot, it was enough
re bilge pump: be aware that even with a loop above the water line will not prevent water from siphoning back into the boat, the one way valve will not stop the flow entirely, it will leak and you will always have a wet bilge, go out the transom, don’t drill any more holes in your hull. :-)
Hi Guy. Thank you for your comment. We have been debating our two options and did decide to go out through the transom, so thanks for confirming our choice:-) Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Thanks, its called Crestafix 90 85 PA, closest datasheet I could find is this one www.scottbader.com/wp-content/uploads/Crestafix-90-80PA_ENG_TDS_Feb18-1.pdf
Thank you Chris for these videos. We are in the same situation as yourself and bought a similar new sailing boat in 2019 and these videos are a great help to me in the process of equipping our boat. You probably have considered it, but I wonder if the way you describe installation of the bilge pump can create a siphon effect and lead water back into the vessel as soon as the pump stops. Could be there is a need for a ventilation hole at the top of the u-bend, or to have the outlet above the water line?
Thanks very much your welcome. I haven't put huge thought into this as I need to do a bit more exploring around the head once all of the plastic is down from the repair. Good thinking though, didn't actually get as far as the siphoning part, but a one way valve should take care of this. I am now considering installing the tube a lot higher up the hull side. Still pondering it, thanks for the tip. Cheers, Chris
@@SailingAurora backflow preventing valves don't seal perfectly for ever. After a while they will leak. Their main purpose is to prevent the water in the exhaust hose from running back & causing the pump to run again & again. Unless you run that hose to the transom (not likely to be covered by sea water-although it can happen with a following sea) you must use a siphon break fitting at the top of the high spot of the hose to prevent siphon caused by the water in the hose from draining back & pulling sea water into the boat.
This matrix and bolt on keel construction method tied to the relative thinness of fin keels and the forces exerted on the keel /hull joint don't fill me with confidence. I'm looking at an encapsulated keel. Probably full or modified with skeg gor the rudder. Preferably in steel. Slow but a battleship.
Sorry. I answered my own question: www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=6498616 it depends on what flexible conduit you buy. I got mine from an auto supply store.
I am quite surprised they cut the longitudinal beams running along the keelson. These are providing both twisting and longitudinal structural support and without them, my guess is the whole hull rigidity is now compromised. The twisting forces transferring from keel to hull are rated in the ton, and my guess, the reason these box beams were designed in the first place. Interesting decision to cut them out...
They had to be cut out to lay more glass inside and repair the damage, they were then put back in and glassed stronger than they were before. Cutting inspection holes is necessary to do the repairs properly
@@SailingAurora That makes sense. Great video! Just bought a boat (Coranado 35) with seriously rusted keel bolts and plates. I have a feeling I will be doing a lot of similar work.
You want an extra bulge pump incase you get unwanted water in the boat. I support your thinking. Can you imagine your feeling, if you are solely depending on the small factory installed pump...... however, One of the causes of getting water in your boat is broken or leaking through hulls. So it would look like you create an extra risk by installing an extra pump!?! Use the existing through hulls that are already on the boat, by creating a manifold. Or install them above the waterline or even in the cockpit, would be my advice.
The flanges should have been cut off to laminate the floors directly to the hull. This would have eliminated possible air pockets in the edges and more importantly make a better less flexible bond. Also the brittle polyester glue would have been removed and replaced.
Most of the bad glue was knocked out, probably may have been a little stronger with the flanges cut out but it's more than strong enough. Another Hanse with the same repair just ran aground again. The area where the repair was done did not crack in the slightest, the damage spread further away from the back of the keel. The repair is more than strong enough
The new pump will have to work harder if the outlet is under the see level. Why? Has to overcome the outside sea pressure than exert more pressure to open the one way valve. I think having the outlet Obote the waterline would mean your pump will last a lot longer. How much longer? May be twice as long, but you have to have the through hole at the back of the boat so it is not fighting the oncoming waves and sea. Just my view.
Sound advice there, I am taking all I can get. Don't forget the waves can also come from the stern. I will have a good look around when all the plastic is down and see what works and also what is aesthetically pleasing to the eye on the hull, the through hull is at least 38mm for the small size. Cheers, Chris
Great videos of your restoration (will have to check the others out later). BTW, I'm looking to buy a boat in the range 39-44ft 1997-2010.. ish . If you happen to know of a project boat (damaged of some kind), please be sure to throw me a line!
Oh man... what an undertake. All power to ya. But I really hope you won't stop the charter. I want to charter Aurora first 2021. After that you can do whatever 😉... Good luck and can't wait for next episode... cheers...
Thanks for the nice comment, really appreciated. I'm sorry to disappoint but I think the charter almost broke us inside last year, we maybe looking to stop it. All the best, Chris
Manifactures build boat with polyester or vinyl resin, people think they build with epoxy . But I realy don't know what is the different between vinyl or polyester?
-vinylester is epoxy based - so when manifactures say that they build with Epoxy, they are not wrong if they use vinylester. Here's a more detailed comparison between the two (vinylester/polyester) Polyester resins are formed by the reaction between polyols such as glycol or ethylene glycol with dibasic acids such as phthalic acid or maleic acid. These unsaturated resins are combined with other chemicals sometimes called hardeners or catalysts. This changes the molecular structure and the resulting compound cures, generating heat in the process. Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide ('MEKP') is one such 'hardening' agent. Vinyl ester resins are produced by the reaction ('esterification') between an epoxy resin and an unsaturated monocarboxylic acid. Essentially they comprise a base of polyester resin strengthened with epoxy molecules in the backbone of the molecular chain. Vinyl esters also use peroxides (e.g. MEKP) for hardening. Both resins can be 'thinned' by reaction with chemicals such as styrene.
The hull is vinylester. I understand where your coming from and why people think that way. Plastskador have been using this method some time now and with the polyester accelerant (Crestafix) they have had no problems with any of their repairs over the years and have a great reputation also. Otherwise the insurance companies would not be working with them. Epoxy can be a difficult resin to work with also as it is not as easy to wet out and the conditions need to be right for it. There are a few hidden advantages of polyester that no one is talking about such as the finish also, with epoxy you have to be very careful with applying gelcoat over the top of it, in some cases you may get a very bad finish. BR Chris
Hi J D. The charter program is a bareboat charter programme, where we are chartering/renting out Aurora to a group of maximum 9 people. At least two members of the crew a captain and a co captain needs to be qualified to skipper a sailing yacht above 12 meter. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
I've been thinking of that but it's pretty far over the water line, maybe a massive wave might bring some in but then I believe the flow would just stop. Will do some more research
I still don’t know why most European manufacturers insist in using iron keels. I know that it will keep the manufacturing price lower, but a lead keel will absorb a lot of that hit with no doubt. I’ve seen a 45’ production boat hit a rock at full speed that left the keel with a dent on the leading edge with the shape of a football, but not a single crack on the gelcoat from the grid/hull joint.
Lead can't protect the vessel. The lead would just transfer the impact force upward. For fin keel boats it's where the fin keel are mounted to the hull. Iron aren't used, except as scrap metal with concrete as ballast. A hard metal like steel is excellent for structural integrity, e.g. a full keel, because of its high tensile strength, and has very good elasticity (returns back to its previous shape as if nothing had happened). In a collision the impact force will often be so low that the metal will only bend without breaking - that is called ductility. A fiberglass boat experiencing the same impact force will break it - not bend without breaking All metals are also isotropic - i.e. equally strong in all direction (equally strong in 3D space). GFRP (Glass Fiber Reinforced Plastic) / FRP (Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic) aren't isotropic.
1/2 I had recently read a story about a collision which involved a steel boat. Some time ago - very close to a shoreline - a vessel broke loose from where it was anchored. It when pushed a steel boat toward the coastline (owners of both boats was onshore), which when pushed another Fiberglass boat towards the coat. The steel boat was now sandwiched between the 2 fiberglass boats. When the 3 boats hit ground both fiberglass boats got a serious amount of damage from the impact, but the steel boat almost nothing
I would not be putting a bilge pump outlet below the surface I agree with prior comment about sea water pressure applying back pressure You want to be able to see water leaving the boat to confirm pump is working and that no line blockage exists With the outlet in the water, barnacles and other organisms will likely block the outflow to some degree You do not want seacock in line........seacocks can and do break or get stuck plus you might not have time to access it Always minimize number of thru hulls below surface. Do not create one unless absolutely unavoidable
Hi Geoff, thanks for the input. I was looking to put it just above the water line, where the sink outlet is, never below the waterline. I am now thinking of mounting it as high as possible on the hull side, while making a U bend, but I will have to see how everything looks.
Chartering out my boat;that sentence has the same feel as saying, 'chartering out my wife' ;there's something dirty about it.With my boat I could say "Let me use her until the 'thrill' is gone and I might consider chartering her out.I'd never do that to my Wi...Hmm,on the Other hand...(I mean,the thrill's been gone since our pet dinosaur died)....Wow!elderly sex trafficking....is that the right term for a woman with a 'walker'?...Wow again,this got Real Deep/shallow real fast huh?
Hahahahah, hi Dean thanks for the comment, made me chuckle on a tough day. You have some truth there though. We hate when the boat goes out for charter. I don't think we can continue with this open relationship with our boat. She needs to commit to us
Have the tabs of the grid been bedded on something where the factory "glue" came out? Just looking at th-cam.com/video/tG5jUQXUGLk/w-d-xo.html and wondering if that glass has air bubbles in or it is against some kind of bedding compound/adhesive. P.S. I don't know anything about boat repairs but like others watching Expedition Evans, they re-sealed/glued the gap between the grid and hull before glassing.
Hi There, no worries. This is where the Crestafix is spead over just before the first layer of glass, it acts both as a filler and adhesive. You can see it more later in the videos. The crestafix description is here if you are interested: www.scottbader.com/wp-content/uploads/Crestafix-90-80PA_ENG_TDS_Feb18-1.pdf Hope that helped, we are watching Expedition Evans also. Cheers, Chris
Thanks for the tip, it will only be in the sea when heeled. But I'm starting to lean towards raising the outlet to near deck level after some good thinking 🤔
@@SailingAurora Engineer, you know, can't help it. My pump evacuates out on deck. The other, main disaster, strait out in the cockpit. Just an idea :-)
Be careful not to damage the resale value of your boat lol. You are reinforcing the area around the keel plate but not under it. Would it have been better to remove the keel plate and built up the entire area? The new glass has made the surrounding area stronger and thicker, but the keel attachment points are the same strength as they were before the repair. In my opinion, you strengthened areas that didn't really need it as much and didn't touch the areas that needed it the most.
Thanks for the advice, and I can see where you coming from but I'm going to trust Plastskador on this one, they have been doing this for 20+ years and have perfected the technique. No boats have come back in due to a bad overall repair
Don't apologise, most production boats all take the cheap way out, and still charge you an arm and leg. Tell Hanse, to do the job right in the first place. Or put out a disclaimer, benauteu are no better, check out expeditionevans.
Hi Dean. We are also following Expedition Evans, and the great work that they are doing. Yes most of the production boats are build in a similar way. And the construction was not a surprise to use, as we have been to the Hanse factory to see how they are built. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
@@lovropirkl2672 never tried them, would love to compare though. I don't have any experience with them but alot of people are calling them fishing net catchers.
Every boat is a compromise. Not boat is built to run aground, or worse on the rocks. And with speed disaster will strike with any kind of boat. People ask us if we’re not scared in the middle of the sea. Our answer: we’re more scared where land meets the sea......
Why does each of these "repair" videos include the statement "Patrick is not here"? Are you sure Patrick is doing the work, and not some magic bilge elves? The glass up schedule is very good. You will have a much stronger attachment of the grid to your hull than the manufacture had. Of course you will still have the same weak point. The plate that the keel attaches to is still bonded to the hull, and not the grid. Using layered glass to tie the keel plate to the hull and bring that glass up on the grid boxes would make the hull, grid and keel plate one exceedingly strong structure. Keel to Hull using bonding paste would not be the course I would take. Nor would I use Sikaflex. Bonding paste is very hard and brittle when cured. BUFA 0588 is made for bonding GRP to itself. As long as it is not exposed to heavy loads. Sikaflex is a sealant, it is flexible. If I need a flexible sealant on my keel to hull bond, then I have a bigger problem. The keel to hull joint should not be flexible. That joint should be extremely ridged. I understand what the yard is doing. They are doing a good job. They are not doing what I consider a great job. 3M 5200 I fully agree with you. Do not hit the ground. LOL! This comment like all my comments are my opinion. I am not a FACSE! (Fat Ass Couch Sitting Expert) HANSE makes a good, well sailing, well made sailboat! With a CE A Rating (highest rating for non cargo ships) you sure as hell can trust and take your HANSE anywhere you like. With only one exception, you do not have an ice ratine, so no ice busting for you. Be happy, be safe.
"Should the boat be handbuilt intended to cross Oceans, maybe, but LOOKS." ~Millennials “Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
This video series is just another confirmation of boats of really poor quality. They may be cheaper initially but always ending being much more expensive.
Hear what you are saying, but doesn't have to be, if it didn't have a hard grounding and the responsible captain had actually paid attention to what he was doing. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
![REFITTING a SAILBOAT: Fibreglass Work [S4E28]](/img/n.gif)
Hey Chris congratulations on another great video! Your resilience and positive nature is always evident and I agree fully with your comments and your choice of boat.
You and Tanja took a massive hit just one year after purchasing your dream boat. Instead of being permanently dismayed and angry at the world you pushed on determined to live your dream..... Now your using that period of misfortune to honestly and openly let others see how the repair process takes place to everyone’s benefit......All I can say is - Thank you
Thanks Paul, comments like these really mean a lot to us and keep us going. Sometimes on the channel the only things you hear are what you did wrong and sometimes get's a little tired. Very nice to hear something different, appreciate it. No point in moping around about the damage/repair I guess, just gotta move on and make the most of it. I hope all is well with your sailing life also. Cheers, Chris and Tanja
@@SailingAurora I really appreciate the the time and effort that goes into making this sort of content and respect you both for being transparent as possible on an open platform like TH-cam. It's just the Aussie in me that I have to learn to stop taking up the fight when I see the thoughtless comments posted by some of the armchair admirals. I think it's great to have a different point of view and to discuss points of view but some people seem to forget that there are real people invested both financially and emotionally in the discussion. Not only that but they have the privilege of having that discussion thanks to the person that is invested in it!
My sailing life is going well. I have our boat on a swing mooring out the front of our house, I am located on Lake Macquarie, NSW, Australia. The lake is so large that you can sail all day and not see that same place twice or you can head out to sea and keep on going..... Pop in when your down under and we will have a beer together :)
fabulous explanation and walk through. The silver lining here is that you are in a shop with excellent experience and know how.
Hi Tim. Thank you so much! Yes, feels really safe to be in good hands of the professionals. Best, Chris & Tanja
Absolutely spot on! Every comment addressed, every one of your thoughts made clear. We are not sure how far ahead you are with progress vs filming but here are a couple of thoughts that may help you out. The limber holes from bilge compartment to compartment; If you have the opportunity, glass in plastic tubes so any water goes from compartment to compartment. Not into the matrix frame where it takes forever to remove. We did a video on bilge pumps. We came to the conclusion that we wanted an alarm that notified us if water was in the bilge regardless... We fitted moisture alarms in the bilges in addition to auto bilge pumps. Should the worst happen and lets say you hit a submerged container on an ocean crossing.... By adding latteral force strengthening from the keel to the matrix frame it is just about impossible for the keel to "fall off", Cheeki Rafiki style. By adding two simple Stainless Steel angle plates from the top of the keel plates to the matrix frame. Our frame has internal wood laminate reinforcement (plywood) But after reading the MCA report on the Cheeki Rafiki, we added these custom made parts for around £200. PM us and we will send you photos and cad drawings. Again, cracking video. Any help or thoughts we can offer should you need them just shout us! Sail Safe Guys, Ant, Cid & the pooch crew.
Wow! Awesome advice guys, thanks. After this I will be laying off any work to do with the grid for a while but if you have the time, please send over some info about the plates, I will drop you a PM.
Good idea with the plastic tubes, the issue is the water sometimes comes through other channels behind the engine so it's easier if it ends up inside the grid and then I can suck it out. Great idea though, it it works in your boat, fantastic. As for the bilge pumps, it's a good idea with the alarms, will definitely be adding that also, even a system that will SMS me when I am not on the boat. I hope to catch up a little more with your channel but there is so much going on at the moment :) I hope you are well in these covid times. Again, really appreciate the advice. Cheers, Chris
Hanse, Jeanneau, and Beneteau all build good boats. Yes, they are all built to a cost and that it is okay. With proper care all of these boats will serve their owners well. My Beneteau First 265 has served me well since 1994. I grounded my boat once many years ago on Lake Michigan and I did not have any issues with the grid being damaged. Granted, I hit sand, not rock. Even custom built have issues with a bad grounding, Nigel Calder hit bottom with his Malo sailboat and it had extensive damage. Custom or production boats can suffer damage. I've looked at the Hanse 348 and really like it, but may go with a Jeanneau 349 as my next boat. If I could afford one I would either get a Hallburg Rassy or a Sunbeam yacht. The repair to your boat is looking great sir, enjoy many years on the water with her once she's launched again.
Hi Eric. Thank you so much, we are really looking forward to get her back in the water and for a new season in the Stockholm Archipelago. And you are absolutely right with a bad grounding all boats have issues. Good luck on finding your next boat, and happy sailing. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Thank you Chris for an interesting episode. I actually grounded my Linjett 32 (built at Rosättra Boatyard) when captain (me) and crew all tried to solve an hoist issue with the main sail. Thus, everybody was involved and no one was looking at navigational chart. There was "only" one rock in the bay, and of course we hit that. One propeller blade lost when we tried to revers out. It was not a to bad hit, maybe 2-3 knots. We sailed into the Bullandö marina later that day. There were no hull integrity damages and we got an upgrade to our prop by the insurance. So lesson learned, always have one person take charge and focus only on the navigation, directly after pulling up the anchor. I also enjoy the story telling part of your channel (I'm Swedish). Locking forward to every episode and what wonderful anchorages you find. Congrats to you and Tanja for a refreshing good sailing channel. Cheers.
Sounds like an interesting story. In England we call situations like this "Sods law", sometimes meaning that something will go wrong at the worst possible time. I've hear Linjett have been making swinging keels now that are really resistant to groundings. There is a video of a Linjett hitting the rocks on TH-cam at 8 knots with no damage if you haven't seen it already, pretty good idea. Sounds like you got lucky when you hit the rocks though, good for you :) Thanks for the compliment, maybe see you out on the water. Skål, Chris
You watch all the best channels and always make interesting comments
Sgt-Bond 👍
@@SVImpavidus thanks very much, I have been following you guys also, especially on the engine side of things. You've got a great channel :)
@@SailingAurora Thank you! Sail Safe Guys, Ant, Cid & the pooch crew.
Looks like they are doing a great job, Aurora will be really strong when it's done!
PS. Love the way you do these episodes, really informative! DS.
Thanks very much, appreciate comments like these, they keel us going :)
Congrats!!! These videos are really amazing. It is knot easy making these kind of videos, specially on our own boat.....
Big Congrats and keep them coming!
Thanks very much. It's not easy making the videos, the technical ones are a little easier though, it depends on how far you want to go with them. Happy that you are enjoying them :)
Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge about the keels on production boats Chris. That’s my one concern about buying one. I’ve been looking for a Luders (US) sloop that was built in 1959 using diagonally laid up 1/4 inch cold molded plywood strips embedded in epoxy. Not sure of the framing connection to the hull on this type of construction. Need to study this more. Doesn’t have all the comforts of the newer boats but can take a grounding much better. Full keel design obviously. Will still probably settle for a newer production boat in the end. Thanks again for sharing.
You are more than welcome, sorry for the delay in reply. I guess you have bought that boat now?
The Hanse 418 is a great yacht and Aurora will be better than new. Thanks Chris for a very informative video. Don’t charter her as no one looks after her better than you. Here’s to sailing around the world one day😊 Best regards P&J
Thanks Peter, once again appreciate comments like these. Just can't wait for summer now and your right about the charter. It hurt us a lot last year, I know it's only a boat but for us it's something very special and we enjoy taking the best care of here. All the best, Chris & Tanja
I don't know, being an east coast of Scotland sailor where it's guaranteed the water will disappear and if you're 2 minutes late getting back "home" it is pretty normal to bounce off a few rocks on the way back to the mooring. Never had any issues with delamination, keel pressure. My boat was built in the late 70s before CAD was available. Maybe consider owning an older boat instead of getting a mortgage which costs you thousands after 1 year (2019 -> 2020). Seriously why not go back to the company that built the boat using basic consumer rights?
An alarm on the bilge pump is a must. Make sure you can hear this in the cockpit on a windy day.
Yup, thanks. Haven't had to use the alarm for real yet luckily.
A flashing light, too.
Holy cow. Keep up the good work. It seems she will be a better vessel when she's done. I view this as a "how to video".
Thanks very much. I'm sure she is gonna be great 👍
your comments at the end , awesome and realistic !
Thank you so much 😀 appreciated
i completely agree with your comment on the vinylester bonder to the hull. It's plenty strong for its purpose - heck even windmill blades are glued together with it!
And yes it's brittle, because that's where you get compressive strength, which is exactly what you would want between the hull and the grid. Think of it the same way as when using balsa core between 2 laminates. Balsa is cut and laid end grain, because of its compressive strength in that direction. The idea of a Sandwich construction is to have flexible layers on both sides of a non compressive core.
Flexible hull - rock hard vinylester - flexible grid = perfect sandwich construction.
In my opinion it's not even worse than "hand built" its an upgrade from it! Especially when you witness the damage on a "rigid hand built" hitting a rock at those speeds as i have.
This is salvageable because it's built much like a car with compression zones - hand builds are not. Compare wrecking in a brand new Vw to a Ford T
Ohh and bttw, your boy there certainly know what he's doing, in case that wasn't obvious to you.
Hi there. Thank you so much for your comment and explanation. This subject have certainly created a lot of debate, which is great:-)
Yes, Patrick is really good and very experienced, it's a joy to watch. Cheers, Cris & Tanja
Hi - very informative video. All the best.
Thanks, we try our best
Thanks for sharing, the repair process is really fascinating, especially having Expedition Evans to compare and contrast to. When I first saw their damage - I put it down to production boats ‘ cheaping out’ - however my thoughts now are - maybe not. However although I am a Marine Engineer with an appreciation of hull structure I am no Naval Architect.
In essence, I do not believe you can design a fin keel boat that is ‘strong’ enough to impact with a rock at 5 + knots without damage. My thoughts now are the grillage has two jobs: To transfer dynamic keel loads evenly to the hull structure and act as support to interior furniture and soles. In essence what appears to be a cheap bonding process may, by design, be entirely adequate to deal with the loads demanded of it. Indeed it may also be acting as a ‘structural fuse’ when subjected to grounding forces to avoid more serious hull damage.
Basically you can calculate the energy of the impact, the total surface area of the bonded surfaces and the strength of the binding goo will be part of the product data sheet. The impact energy has to be dissipated somehow. Hopefully a good Naval Architect can chip in and give a view. But probably only Hanse can give the design philosophy and calculations.
I agree. In fact if the matrix didn't give and flex a bit when a grounding occurs there would surely be a greater risk of ripping the keel off - all that energy has to go somewhere! When the matrix failed on my boat last year, she remained afloat on her mooring for 6 weeks before she was hauled out for repairs.
Hi Norman, excellent comment. I had a conversation with a smart guy at the yard the other day and we concluded that the force multiplies a lot with every additional knot added, basically into 100's of tonnes when a grounding happens. You are absolutely right
@@SailingAurora if I recall correctly Kinetic energy = 1/2 m x v2. (Kilograms and metres/s)
First of all great choice of boat, I really like it even if I own a Bene myself ;) For your information I know a HR who did a hard grounding in Canaries last year. They had to spend months of repair in Las Palmas after that. I don't think you should focus too much on production/non production boats. The forces on a full speed hard grounding will have a serious impact on any boat, except maybe a full keel where you end up on top of the rock.
Thanks for the great videos. I'm also looking forward to see when you start full time/long distance cruising. Cheers!
Thanks Magnus, your right about the groundings, unless the keel is significantly longer with more surface contact to the hull and shallower you will end up with a repair anyways, it's unavoidable. Good advice, I appreciate comments like these, cheers
Great video. Just subscribed. Finally a great description why to use polyester over epoxy. So many people say they would never use polyester over epoxy. HELLO, the boat is built out of polyester! If you think polyester isnt strong enough your on the wrong boat!
Just a side note. On the bilge something to consider and always a pet peeve of mine.
Why would anyone want to subject and immerse an electric motor to water, especially salt water?
Well most bilge pumps do just that. Its a great business for sure, production car mentality. Do t build it to last too long lol. This is my set up.
- Big Gulper diaphragm pump (3.7 gal per min.)
- bronze scupper with solid state electronic switch attached
- one way check valve on scupper end 3/4" connection
- 3/4 " hard pvc tube connection up from bilge (3.5 ft deep bilge in keel)
- 3/4 " hose to aft lazaret connected to the big gulper mounted to the bulkhead.
- 3/4 " hose out of big gulper to through hull in stern above the water line.
- pump wired to switch in cabin. Switch has auto-off-on
- second float switch placed about 12 " above first switch and connected to "high water in bilge" alarm
Ive had this installed for 12 years now and the only thing I replaced was a faulty float switch(went solid state) and bilge on off switch. The pump is easily accessible but I haven't ever needed to do anything to it. Yes more expensive but in the long run much better. That thing will suck anything through too ( screws, bits of cloth, oil, dirt etc)
Its a very clean system. Just keep the oil off the solid state sensor and your golden.
Awesome comment Craig, I can see the attraction to epoxy and people are mostly looking at the strength characteristics but that's not everything. Our hull is made from vinylester but I confident the Iso polyester will do great, it's also an upgrade from normal polyester.
Looks like you have an awesome pump setup there and seems to last well, taking notes. Cheers, Chris
Love how tidy those work people are,
Hi there, yes you are right, it's always very tidy and cleaned up. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
“If you never ground these boats” point me to a boat thats never been grounded. Im a full or skeg keel kinda guy speed and performance isn’t my thing but definitely a pretty boat, very interesting fix and documentation.
Hi Matt, I can see why you like the strong keels, would give you more peace of mind, that's for sure
@@SailingAurora Thank for the reply been bingeing ur videos on the repair, hoping to see her sail soon!
Thank you for all the insights! Very valuable!
Thank you so much! Stay safe, Chris & Tanja
Chris , great video narrative. Lot of progress. About Hanse crossing oceans, I can assure you they are well capable. Keep it up, and keep the videos coming.
Thanks very much, it's nice to get some reassurance sometimes also :) We think she would handle a sea pretty nicely. Glad you are enjoying the channel. Cheers, Chris
And if you hit something smaller than a baby whale on passage the entire boat rigidity is compromised, perfectly capable until something serious happens xD
Good comprehensive video. Kudos for that. As to the bilge pump outflow pipe, you mentioned having an inverted U-tube trap above the heeled water line. Just make sure this is well above the waterline and it is vented to atmosphere with a check valve so that you cannot turn the line into a siphon. You probably have the same setup on other above water outlets on the side of the boat. I'm sure that some of the yacht manufacturing associations have specifications on the dimensions. Don't take my word on this however and check this one with the associations.
Thanks for the complement, appreciated. I will do some research on this a little and have a good look around the boat to see what is possible. Sound advice you are giving there, noted :)
It's a gorgeous boat. I'm sorry for your troubles, but I hope you have safe, joyful travels. THanks for the entertaining and informative video. (As for: Kitchen vs. galley? I'm going to go ahead and guess that English isn't your first language, so if you fall down ever-so-slightly on "nautical English", well, that's not much of a sin.)
Haha, oh the sailors will get him for it though lol
Hi Karl, thanks! I am English by birth so cannot be excused unfortunately. Appreciate comments like these, cheers
Hello guys!
Have been following you since the beginning but have not commented earlier. We have read some of the comments on the previous section and feel we need to write something now. Some of the comments you get are so unnecessary and sometimes downright condescending...
We really appreciate your channel, you are open with what you know and what you don´t and it really feels like everything is genuine. We think you did exactly the right thing by following your dream and buying your dream boat! In addition, it is incredibly valuable to be able to follow the process when you repair Aurora.
So continue with what you are doing, you are really appreciated! Try to remember the compliments and forget the insults (and if you succeed in doing that, tell me how ;)
Lots of love!
Petter and Chatrin
Hi Chatrin & Petter. Thank you so much for following and for you very kind and warm heartfelt words, cannot tell you how much that means to us! We will follow you advice and we are also trying to get the best out of the situation, by learning as much as we can in the process. We are now half way in the repair (hopefully:-)) and there is light at the end of the tunnel. We cannot wait until Aurora is back in the water and we again can be off on new adventures. Take care and stay safe, Chris & Tanja
Looking good. Was expecting that new glass will go over the structure making everything connected in one peace. (I bet, Patrick knows what he is doing)
Thanks, yup they have done many repairs like this, he has been with Plastskador for over 10 years. the grid itself is strong, so no need. Just need to get it to be strong against the hull. BR Chris
Thank you, Sir !
You are welcome!
Great episode very informative. 👍
Thanks, appreciated
About the bilge pump.
My opinion is, that if you ever need that size of pump to run. A seacock is the most anoying thing to be faffing about with. I would run the outlet a fair bit above waterline, with a u bend and one way valve.
But it needs to be the choice that you are most comfortable with :)
Great advice, as soon as I get access to the bathroom and have a better look around it will help me make a decision. I think you could be right there, probably no point with a seacock on the fitting. Decisions, decisions....
Tks for the videos, one question… why didn’t use peelply on vtr?
Thanks, no peel ply is needed with ISO polyester
Hi Chris,
Tjansk for sharing. Why is Patrick not putting down any peelply to make the life easier?
You are welcome. With polyester peelply is noto really needed, without the wax you can just lay more on top the next day
Question: I understand why you start the lamination with a couple of layers of 900g chop-strand followed by triaxial. But why do you (Patrick) repeat the process after curing, again with chop-strand + triaxial, instead of continuing with i.e. 3 layers of triaxial. Adding the chop-strand on top of the cured and fairly smooth surface of triaxial will just potentially introduce air pockets and/or complicate the lay-up. What am I missing?
Probably best to come from the horses mouth. I will ask on Friday
If i had to take an unqualified guess, i would guess it's because of the compressive strength of the chop, and the tensile strength of the biaxial - Laying them alternating you create a Sandwich construction within the laminate.
Look at MJ sailing on U tube they are also constructing their Multihull the same way as explained in the comments as it makes the hull and bulkheads stronger !
As you say; the perennial balance. Production plastic and bolted vs older long keel.
I saw a wonderful center cockpit long keel example from the 70's that I keep lusting for.
Then I found that it has a balsa sandwich HULL.
Now I'm just very conflicted.
Tough choice, check out Sail Life with Mads, when he had to replace the deck. It was a tonne of work. Hope you find the perfect one
Absolutely GREAT content; thank you. So ... my question ... will you charter it again?
Hi Patrick. Thank you so much for your kind words! We are just working out the financial details, but we hope not. Chartering is for sure paused for 2021, but hopefully never again. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
@@SailingAurora Yes ... that's why I am in the market for a used sailboat ... as late a model year as I can afford.
What do you think about the installation forward-looking sonar, maybe this will help to avoid such situations. Оr is it expensive to install and does not justify the cost?
I think you nay have been spying on me :) I have just bought a forward scan sonar, it will be fitted at the end of the repair process. It is fairly expensive, it costs around €700, but I think it could be worth it. The installation will be quite easy on our boat as the hull just in front of the keel is almost level with the waterline, it's just a question of drilling a hole and installing the throughhull well. I don't think it will work to well undersail and moving a fast speeds but it will be great using it going into unknown harbours or poorly charted areas. Especially around here in Stockholm where there are a lot of rocks. Watch this space, I will do a review on this. Cheers, Chris
@@SailingAurora Nice, I have had a couple of close calls and been thinking if that could help...
@@SailingAurora Ha ha ha. I'm waiting for a video about the installation from you :))
@@МихаилАстафьев-ъ1м I am sure there will be something
@@SailingAurora FLS fairly expensive?...its peanuts compared to the repairs it could save.
Having a beutiful classic sailing yacht, Nicolson design, with a long keel stem to stern, which to me is the perfect design. The modern fin keel with bolts into the skeleton matrix supports, to me is awful and so prone to damage as we see in this video. If your buying a sailing yacht always go traditional long keel yacht safe and secure in a very unforgiving sea!
True, the long keel will always be stronger but you often sacrifice some performance. Swings and roundabouts as we say in the UK
Great to see some progress Chris. Will you be putting her back into Charter afterwards or taking a breather? Hard I suppose if your using the income to offset the marina costs. One tip for the saildrive. If you took it down to bare metal -best treatment is alodine before coating application but wear gloves. One of my yachts is aluminium - painting ally is a pain unless its deoxidised and converted.
Hi there, thanks for the comment. It's tough to say at the moment, if a grounding were to happen again and take another sailing year away from us, I don't know what we would do. This may sound stupid, but It's really our passion and we have to think about our mental health also. We can live without the charter income, would be nice to have but not essential. Good tips on the sail drive, aluminium can be funny indeed, will have to look it up. All the best, Chris
Great videos, thanks for all the effort. Did the insurance cover all the costs?
Thanks very much, yes the insurance covered everything
@@SailingAurora Great to hear they did. What insurance company was it?
@@kevinvisser6538 Atlantica båtförsäkring
Thanks for sharing 😀
You are so welcome, glad you liked it. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Maybe we should install a shock absorber in the keels front? 🤔 like bumper cars?
There is actually a solution for this, I looked it up. Not sure whether I would do it though
I see in the previous video your guy had to drill those backing plates out (where the keel bolt washers/nuts sit), to be able to move the keel bolts. Were those backing plates replaced?
Hi, the keel bolts run through holes in the keel plate, these holes are slightly bigger so the keel can be alligned exactly with the boat. It's been a while since this was done so you are testing my memory a little. when the bolts come up through the holes sikaflex is put between the hull and keel and a special glass compound is set in the holes around the bolts. The nuts are then put on and tightened down. I hope that answers your question. Cheers, Chris
I see the only way to avoid potential groundings is to get a swing keel such as on the Southerly’s. Fortunately, I’m only in the “what would I buy one day if” stage. Our 6’5” keel often causes me concern... so far we’ve only had 2 soft/slow groundings!
Yup, would definitely think about buying one of those if they weren't so darned expensive. They are build like tanks though according to Sailing Ruby Rose. We had 1 soft grounding at around 1 knot, it was enough
Are those keel bolts stainless steel ?
Hi JanHB. Yes the keel bolts are stainless steel. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Great explination.
That's what happened to "Expedition Evans", they have a recent video of them installing their keel.
Thanks. Yes, we are following Expedition Evans and their amazing job as well. Best, Chris & Tanja
re bilge pump: be aware that even with a loop above the water line will not prevent water from siphoning back into the boat, the one way valve will not stop the flow entirely, it will leak and you will always have a wet bilge, go out the transom, don’t drill any more holes in your hull. :-)
Hi Guy. Thank you for your comment. We have been debating our two options and did decide to go out through the transom, so thanks for confirming our choice:-) Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Interesting ! I enjoyed it.
Thank you so much. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
How was it grounded , I can’t find previous vlogs, I found it
Hi David. Glad you found it, hope you enjoy the videos. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Looks good. can you please give me the name / brand of the polyester glue that you started with
Thanks, its called Crestafix 90 85 PA, closest datasheet I could find is this one www.scottbader.com/wp-content/uploads/Crestafix-90-80PA_ENG_TDS_Feb18-1.pdf
@@SailingAurora Thanks
Thank you Chris for these videos. We are in the same situation as yourself and bought a similar new sailing boat in 2019 and these videos are a great help to me in the process of equipping our boat.
You probably have considered it, but I wonder if the way you describe installation of the bilge pump can create a siphon effect and lead water back into the vessel as soon as the pump stops. Could be there is a need for a ventilation hole at the top of the u-bend, or to have the outlet above the water line?
Thanks very much your welcome. I haven't put huge thought into this as I need to do a bit more exploring around the head once all of the plastic is down from the repair. Good thinking though, didn't actually get as far as the siphoning part, but a one way valve should take care of this. I am now considering installing the tube a lot higher up the hull side. Still pondering it, thanks for the tip. Cheers, Chris
@@SailingAurora backflow preventing valves don't seal perfectly for ever. After a while they will leak. Their main purpose is to prevent the water in the exhaust hose from running back & causing the pump to run again & again. Unless you run that hose to the transom (not likely to be covered by sea water-although it can happen with a following sea) you must use a siphon break fitting at the top of the high spot of the hose to prevent siphon caused by the water in the hose from draining back & pulling sea water into the boat.
This matrix and bolt on keel construction method tied to the relative thinness of fin keels and the forces exerted on the keel /hull joint don't fill me with confidence.
I'm looking at an encapsulated keel. Probably full or modified with skeg gor the rudder. Preferably in steel. Slow but a battleship.
Can't say I blame you to be honest, gives you peice of mind
mount the new bilge lower so it's the primary pump and leave the old one as a backup
Yes, that is what we are planning to do. ll cables have been run, now it's 'just' the pipe.
I was using a flexible conduit like that until I read it's not recommended because it's a fire hazard. Is this something you checked?
Sorry. I answered my own question: www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=6498616 it depends on what flexible conduit you buy. I got mine from an auto supply store.
Not really looked into it to be honest, I just bought some conduit from the supply store. I hope it won't cause any issues.
I am quite surprised they cut the longitudinal beams running along the keelson. These are providing both twisting and longitudinal structural support and without them, my guess is the whole hull rigidity is now compromised. The twisting forces transferring from keel to hull are rated in the ton, and my guess, the reason these box beams were designed in the first place. Interesting decision to cut them out...
They had to be cut out to lay more glass inside and repair the damage, they were then put back in and glassed stronger than they were before. Cutting inspection holes is necessary to do the repairs properly
@@SailingAurora That makes sense. Great video! Just bought a boat (Coranado 35) with seriously rusted keel bolts and plates. I have a feeling I will be doing a lot of similar work.
@@audentesfortunailuvat Thanks very much and congrats on the new boat! Wishing you all the best with the work
Love the update videos. Quick question. Who picks up the bill for the repair? Insurance company, charter company, people who ran it aground or you?
Thanks very much appreciated. The insurance will pay for the repair, the charter people will pay the initial payment to the insurance. BR Chris
@@SailingAurora That's excellent news that it won't cost you anything but a nightmare how long you'll be without the boat!
@@bellend69 the time without the boat has passed last summer. She will be in the water again in May :) so excited about that
I meant to include Bilge Pump in the title
Indeed you are right
You want an extra bulge pump incase you get unwanted water in the boat. I support your thinking. Can you imagine your feeling, if you are solely depending on the small factory installed pump...... however, One of the causes of getting water in your boat is broken or leaking through hulls. So it would look like you create an extra risk by installing an extra pump!?! Use the existing through hulls that are already on the boat, by creating a manifold. Or install them above the waterline or even in the cockpit, would be my advice.
Great comment and thinking :) I will take notes on your advice
The flanges should have been cut off to laminate the floors directly to the hull. This would have eliminated possible air pockets in the edges and more importantly make a better less flexible bond. Also the brittle polyester glue would have been removed and replaced.
Most of the bad glue was knocked out, probably may have been a little stronger with the flanges cut out but it's more than strong enough. Another Hanse with the same repair just ran aground again. The area where the repair was done did not crack in the slightest, the damage spread further away from the back of the keel. The repair is more than strong enough
Hi. How much did repair cost??
Around €40,000
The new pump will have to work harder if the outlet is under the see level. Why? Has to overcome the outside sea pressure than exert more pressure to open the one way valve. I think having the outlet Obote the waterline would mean your pump will last a lot longer. How much longer? May be twice as long, but you have to have the through hole at the back of the boat so it is not fighting the oncoming waves and sea. Just my view.
Sound advice there, I am taking all I can get. Don't forget the waves can also come from the stern. I will have a good look around when all the plastic is down and see what works and also what is aesthetically pleasing to the eye on the hull, the through hull is at least 38mm for the small size. Cheers, Chris
Great videos of your restoration (will have to check the others out later). BTW, I'm looking to buy a boat in the range 39-44ft 1997-2010.. ish . If you happen to know of a project boat (damaged of some kind), please be sure to throw me a line!
Hi, thanks for the complement. I will keep an eye out :), Cheers
Oh man... what an undertake. All power to ya. But I really hope you won't stop the charter. I want to charter Aurora first 2021. After that you can do whatever 😉...
Good luck and can't wait for next episode... cheers...
Thanks for the nice comment, really appreciated. I'm sorry to disappoint but I think the charter almost broke us inside last year, we maybe looking to stop it. All the best, Chris
Manifactures build boat with polyester or vinyl resin, people think they build with epoxy . But I realy don't know what is the different between vinyl or polyester?
-vinylester is epoxy based - so when manifactures say that they build with Epoxy, they are not wrong if they use vinylester.
Here's a more detailed comparison between the two (vinylester/polyester)
Polyester resins are formed by the reaction between polyols such as glycol or ethylene glycol with dibasic acids such as phthalic acid or maleic acid. These unsaturated resins are combined with other chemicals sometimes called hardeners or catalysts. This changes the molecular structure and the resulting compound cures, generating heat in the process. Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide ('MEKP') is one such 'hardening' agent.
Vinyl ester resins are produced by the reaction ('esterification') between an epoxy resin and an unsaturated monocarboxylic acid. Essentially they comprise a base of polyester resin strengthened with epoxy molecules in the backbone of the molecular chain. Vinyl esters also use peroxides (e.g. MEKP) for hardening. Both resins can be 'thinned' by reaction with chemicals such as styrene.
Great explanatiion
iv been told before too that Polyester shouldnt be used to repair an existing polyester hull etc but to use Epoxy.
The hull is vinylester. I understand where your coming from and why people think that way. Plastskador have been using this method some time now and with the polyester accelerant (Crestafix) they have had no problems with any of their repairs over the years and have a great reputation also. Otherwise the insurance companies would not be working with them. Epoxy can be a difficult resin to work with also as it is not as easy to wet out and the conditions need to be right for it. There are a few hidden advantages of polyester that no one is talking about such as the finish also, with epoxy you have to be very careful with applying gelcoat over the top of it, in some cases you may get a very bad finish. BR Chris
Hopefully you never use that monster bilge pump . awesome work
No another piece of equipment that we never hope to be using:-) Cheers, Chris & Tanja
What's the charter program?
Hi J D. The charter program is a bareboat charter programme, where we are chartering/renting out Aurora to a group of maximum 9 people. At least two members of the crew a captain and a co captain needs to be qualified to skipper a sailing yacht above 12 meter. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
I would suggest you put a syphon break at the highest point
I've been thinking of that but it's pretty far over the water line, maybe a massive wave might bring some in but then I believe the flow would just stop. Will do some more research
"IF you never ground..." That's a big "if" :-)
I have heard others say it’s not if but when
For sure it's a when
How much did this repair work cost you? Thats alot of fibreglass
Hi there, around $40000 euro's. The work was covered by insurance
Call me old fashion but a full keel skeg protected rudder is the way to go.
Everyone to their own, for world crusing this would definarely be preferred
I still don’t know why most European manufacturers insist in using iron keels. I know that it will keep the manufacturing price lower, but a lead keel will absorb a lot of that hit with no doubt. I’ve seen a 45’ production boat hit a rock at full speed that left the keel with a dent on the leading edge with the shape of a football, but not a single crack on the gelcoat from the grid/hull joint.
Thanks for the comment, interesting to know, I never thought about that before. Do you know how they are repaired? Do they fill it? BR Chris
@@SailingAurora yes, they can be fixed. With epoxy or with lead. Of course this will take some skills to accomplish
Lead can't protect the vessel. The lead would just transfer the impact force upward. For fin keel boats it's where the fin keel are mounted to the hull.
Iron aren't used, except as scrap metal with concrete as ballast.
A hard metal like steel is excellent for structural integrity, e.g. a full keel, because of its high tensile strength, and has very good elasticity (returns back to its previous shape as if nothing had happened).
In a collision the impact force will often be so low that the metal will only bend without breaking - that is called ductility. A fiberglass boat experiencing the same impact force will break it - not bend without breaking
All metals are also isotropic - i.e. equally strong in all direction (equally strong in 3D space). GFRP (Glass Fiber Reinforced Plastic) / FRP (Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic) aren't isotropic.
1/2
I had recently read a story about a collision which involved a steel boat.
Some time ago - very close to a shoreline - a vessel broke loose from where it was anchored. It when pushed a steel boat toward the coastline (owners of both boats was onshore), which when pushed another Fiberglass boat towards the coat.
The steel boat was now sandwiched between the 2 fiberglass boats.
When the 3 boats hit ground both fiberglass boats got a serious amount of damage from the impact, but the steel boat almost nothing
I would not be putting a bilge pump outlet below the surface
I agree with prior comment about sea water pressure applying back pressure
You want to be able to see water leaving the boat to confirm pump is working and that no line blockage exists
With the outlet in the water, barnacles and other organisms will likely block the outflow to some degree
You do not want seacock in line........seacocks can and do break or get stuck plus you might not have time to access it
Always minimize number of thru hulls below surface. Do not create one unless absolutely unavoidable
Hi Geoff, thanks for the input. I was looking to put it just above the water line, where the sink outlet is, never below the waterline. I am now thinking of mounting it as high as possible on the hull side, while making a U bend, but I will have to see how everything looks.
grinded.... ground
Did you bring the skies...🤣😂
Should have, a lot of snow came down that day
Please use a smooth conduit. The corrugated stuff will drive you crazy.
Hi Mark, Thank you for the tip. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Use proper conduit.. That flexi stuff is a nightmare to run cables through.
True... problem was I really couldn't find to buy it anywhere at the time. I wish I would have put bigger conduit in there now but it's doing the job
Chartering out my boat;that sentence has the same feel as saying, 'chartering out my wife' ;there's something dirty about it.With my boat I could say "Let me use her until the 'thrill' is gone and I might consider chartering her out.I'd never do that to my Wi...Hmm,on the Other hand...(I mean,the thrill's been gone since our pet dinosaur died)....Wow!elderly sex trafficking....is that the right term for a woman with a 'walker'?...Wow again,this got Real Deep/shallow real fast huh?
I agree - not into taking the risk with someone using my bost, my homes, or my wife!
Hahahahah, hi Dean thanks for the comment, made me chuckle on a tough day. You have some truth there though. We hate when the boat goes out for charter. I don't think we can continue with this open relationship with our boat. She needs to commit to us
Have the tabs of the grid been bedded on something where the factory "glue" came out? Just looking at th-cam.com/video/tG5jUQXUGLk/w-d-xo.html and wondering if that glass has air bubbles in or it is against some kind of bedding compound/adhesive. P.S. I don't know anything about boat repairs but like others watching Expedition Evans, they re-sealed/glued the gap between the grid and hull before glassing.
Hi There, no worries. This is where the Crestafix is spead over just before the first layer of glass, it acts both as a filler and adhesive. You can see it more later in the videos. The crestafix description is here if you are interested: www.scottbader.com/wp-content/uploads/Crestafix-90-80PA_ENG_TDS_Feb18-1.pdf
Hope that helped, we are watching Expedition Evans also. Cheers, Chris
Spännande att följa arbetet...
Tack Jan, glad att du gillar dessa videon. Bäst, Chris & Tanja
Letting bildge pump pump against the sea, will dramaticly reduse capasity.
Thanks for the tip, it will only be in the sea when heeled. But I'm starting to lean towards raising the outlet to near deck level after some good thinking 🤔
@@SailingAurora Engineer, you know, can't help it. My pump evacuates out on deck. The other, main disaster, strait out in the cockpit. Just an idea :-)
Also, one way valves tend to fail over time. You can o also uso a siphon breaker above water line when heeled.
Be careful not to damage the resale value of your boat lol. You are reinforcing the area around the keel plate but not under it. Would it have been better to remove the keel plate and built up the entire area? The new glass has made the surrounding area stronger and thicker, but the keel attachment points are the same strength as they were before the repair. In my opinion, you strengthened areas that didn't really need it as much and didn't touch the areas that needed it the most.
Thanks for the advice, and I can see where you coming from but I'm going to trust Plastskador on this one, they have been doing this for 20+ years and have perfected the technique. No boats have come back in due to a bad overall repair
Wow almost 3300 subscribers ! :D
Hi Tino, yea growing now. I remember you said about the comments..... there are a lot of comments, haha
Don't apologise, most production boats all take the cheap way out, and still charge you an arm and leg. Tell Hanse, to do the job right in the first place. Or put out a disclaimer, benauteu are no better, check out expeditionevans.
Hi Dean. We are also following Expedition Evans, and the great work that they are doing. Yes most of the production boats are build in a similar way. And the construction was not a surprise to use, as we have been to the Hanse factory to see how they are built. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
We hope that it all comes together, and you get back out on the water . Take care and stay safe. We are looking forward to more of your videos.
8 keel bolts are far from enough. The bavaria 41 has 22 of them!
I have seen an Elan next door with more keel bolts also. They are half the size of these ones
@@SailingAurora I still prefer bulb keels over those old fashioned long keels. Bulb keels are a lot more fun to sail, because they are much faster.
@@lovropirkl2672 never tried them, would love to compare though. I don't have any experience with them but alot of people are calling them fishing net catchers.
This is why I prefer steel hulls.
Can understand that
Every boat is a compromise. Not boat is built to run aground, or worse on the rocks. And with speed disaster will strike with any kind of boat. People ask us if we’re not scared in the middle of the sea. Our answer: we’re more scared where land meets the sea......
Great comment, thanks and veery true
Why does each of these "repair" videos include the statement "Patrick is not here"? Are you sure Patrick is doing the work, and not some magic bilge elves? The glass up schedule is very good. You will have a much stronger attachment of the grid to your hull than the manufacture had. Of course you will still have the same weak point. The plate that the keel attaches to is still bonded to the hull, and not the grid. Using layered glass to tie the keel plate to the hull and bring that glass up on the grid boxes would make the hull, grid and keel plate one exceedingly strong structure.
Keel to Hull using bonding paste would not be the course I would take. Nor would I use Sikaflex. Bonding paste is very hard and brittle when cured. BUFA 0588 is made for bonding GRP to itself. As long as it is not exposed to heavy loads. Sikaflex is a sealant, it is flexible. If I need a flexible sealant on my keel to hull bond, then I have a bigger problem. The keel to hull joint should not be flexible. That joint should be extremely ridged. I understand what the yard is doing. They are doing a good job. They are not doing what I consider a great job. 3M 5200
I fully agree with you. Do not hit the ground. LOL!
This comment like all my comments are my opinion. I am not a FACSE! (Fat Ass Couch Sitting Expert)
HANSE makes a good, well sailing, well made sailboat! With a CE A Rating (highest rating for non cargo ships) you sure as hell can trust and take your HANSE anywhere you like. With only one exception, you do not have an ice ratine, so no ice busting for you.
Be happy, be safe.
I see where you thought the BUFA was for the bonding now... as you said it was just for getting the shape matched to the hull
Unless your boat was designed and built specifically for you, all boats are production boats. Some are just built better than others.
Hi there. Our boat was built for us and with the choices and designs that we chose, but it is still a mass production boat. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
I would rather delay my big escape and work a few more months rather than put her back in to the charter program.
Hi there, yes that is also what we are working on. Charter paused for 2021 and hopefully forever. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
"Should the boat be handbuilt intended to cross Oceans, maybe, but LOOKS." ~Millennials
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
Ditch the charter, it’s just not worth the stress of not knowing if you get a moron driving your baby.
Pretty expensive repair, isn't it.
Well there is a lot of labour involved that's for sure
This video series is just another confirmation of boats of really poor quality. They may be cheaper initially but always ending being much more expensive.
Hear what you are saying, but doesn't have to be, if it didn't have a hard grounding and the responsible captain had actually paid attention to what he was doing. Cheers, Chris & Tanja