Because the surveyor found dry laminate in the hull keel pocket then I would advise you guys to pull the rudder while the boat is out of the water and go through the rudder & steering system very thoroughly. In particular I would check the rudder blade for water ingress and the integrity of the stock. Many of the produvtion boats I deliver have steering issues. Most of the production boats with stainless stocks have rudders full of water. Many of the FRP stocks have problems too with overtorqued clamps or dry laminate. On almost half of the Beneteaus I have delivered there have been steering system failures.
I agree - but I have another concern: Many of the production boats have relative weak construction around the rudder shaft. So my advice, ask the surveyor what can / should be done there. I heard about many boats (some even lost) because of hard impact on the rudder - then crashing the shaft basis. So if the glass is all around perhaps doing some enforcement.
Have you both watched "Expedition Evans"? They bought a damaged boat where the inner frame had separated from the hull. they had to remove the keel as well. Took some time, but they have since travelled the Caribbean and sailed the Atlantic and are now in the Med
Exact same issue with Evans... poor manufacturing leaving it vulnerable to easy damage through grounding or poor yard work. A lot of work... one difference with Evans is that they saved the money because they knew what they were getting into. Between your insurance and the yards insurance, let them have it and buy something you can sail... unless you want to do the work. I am also going to unsubscribe if videos keep being 2 parts click-bait, 3 parts emotion and only 1 part actual story content. Compare to Uma... they are almost all story content, even if it is a side-quest hike or a truck project... it is all content and when there is something emotional, they do it with intellectual honesty, not hamming it up for the camera.
I just wanted to say that your both are great and I can't imagine the stress you are going through, but maybe it helps to know that there are people like myself that send you all the best wishes for the future and your boat. Keep your chin's up and stay strong together.
Your young strong positive minds will get you thru this mess. Before you know you are watching the sunrise over the ocean again. Thanks for sharing & best wishes.
Me alegro mucho por vosotros pues creo que ha llegado el momento en el que pueden ver con claridad hacia el futuro. El análisis de los especialistas es por lo visto muy preciso y esto hace posible que luego de los arreglos tengáis un velero mejor aún que uno nuevo. Sigo manteniendo los dedos cruzados para que todo salga bien. Mis felicitaciones por vuestra actitud siempre tan positiva! 🤞🙂
Gracias por tu comentario y tus deseos. También nos entusiasmó mucho el trabajo de los expertos, que pusieron mucho empeño en ello. Ahora trabajaremos para hacerlo aún mejor que antes. ⛵🙂
Perhaps the correct questions to the insurance company is 'When the fixes are done, will you put in writing that you will continue to insure the boat?", and 'how will the fixes affect the title?". Now to any future, potential buyers, "how would finding out that these fixes were done affect your offer, would you walk away, lower offer, raise offer? "
We have already asked the insurance company this question and received a positive response. We will probably only be able to clarify all other questions in the future.
@@patandfrankieIt's not difficult to effect a repair that is substantially better than new. In part that is a reflection of the poor quality of the original build, with most production boats opting for low cost solutions that are in my view and that of many others, not fit for purpose. Some do it properly: take a look at X-yachts keel attachment. This is why fin keel & spade rudder boats have a bad name: there is nothing inherently wrong with fin keels and spade rudders, but so often they are very badly engineered and constructed.
Good that the surveyor is thorough and is getting the whole story on what needs to be fixed. Hope the insurance company will step up and settle things so you can move forward. Cheers!
It's one thing to have a keel touch and to cause a few issues. I think every surveyor will agree that the keel touch did not cause all of the damage and the failure to bond in multiple areas is a failure by the manufacturer. They should be involved at some point. And if they say it's wear and tear or it's age then they're basically saying that their boats have a "use by date". Best of luck in all this.
Thanks for your evaluation. Unfortunately, you see this issue with almost all products these days, that some of them are no longer built the way they were a few years ago.. Thank you for your wishes!
Pat and Frankie, Hello again. Your surveyor seems like he might know his stuff which I am happy to see. It's great that he found the dry glass in the keel pocket area since you certainly want to fix that. Maybe as a part of getting to know your boat and to better understand the project you should get in there with your own hammer and tap and mark any questionable areas? As you have likely already figured out, good glass will have a sharp "ring" and delaminated or dry glass will create a dull sound when you tap it so there isn't much magic to the process. Production boats will always have some defects in the layup. There unfortunately seems to be a lot more dry glass issues with the resin infusion type methods than with the old tried and true hand lay ups. Your repair work will likely be mostly hand laid so there will be the opportunity to get a good look at the layup. Freshly ground surfaces are essential for a good bond between the new and the old. Also where the original shell is damaged, your new material needs to be "scarfed" into the original material. This is also pretty simple. Scarfing is simply grinding the original glass back to a taper which greatly increases the bonding area. I like when possible to go 10:1 in structural areas, (you will likely be told that a more shallow angle is ok. If you have any concerns layup some samples of old and new glass and break them to see how the joint between the new and the old glass is holding and then decide on the scarf angle that you want) if your original shell is being cut completely through and is 1/2" thick, the scarf would be 5" long. What you said about it being possible to repair this boat so that she is stronger than new is certainly possible and given your sailing plans, why not make this the primary objective? To build back stronger you will need to add weight but this is going down deep in the hull so at least is not raising the CG but it will raise your confidence in the boat if done right. Wishing you both the best. J&J
Hi Jim, Thank you very much for your comments and advice, which we are happy to take on board. This will certainly help us to better understand and monitor the further process. Nice to have you with us. Best Pat & Frankie
If you can secure a good settlement from the insurance company, then consider this a valuable experience in truly understanding the toughness and seaworthiness of your boat. I’ve sailed all my life and currently keep my boat in the Algarve in Portugal. From experience , when you’re out in bad weather, there is no better reassurance than knowing you’re aboard a strong, ship type vessel. That’s exactly what you’ll have once the work is complete. Have faith in your boat and the journey ahead. Wishing you the best of luck. Safe Sailing !
Well, this was eye opening, having a week spot on the keel foundation is unacceptable. However, I believe this can be restored even stronger than the original build, but at what cost and how much time. I am very impressed with how you two are handling this. At least you will know every aspect of your boat literally inside and out.
OK, this boat is economically repairable for the insurance company, which means that they'd rather pay 150,000 euros for the repairs than reimburse you for a total loss of 280,000 euros (for example). With this ‘solution’, you'll end up with a boat that can never be sold, and you'll be the one to suffer a huge loss in value. Take my word for it: negotiate with the insurance company for a sum somewhere between these two extremes, take the money and buy a real sailing yacht, more modest but more seaworthy and less expensive, like an HR39 that can be found for 140 KE. It's not the size of the yacht that makes the quality of the trip.
I disagree that the boat won't be sellable. If all the damage and repairs are well documented and disclosed, you may need to give the boat a 10% or 20% (more?) discount, but hell you can sell anything.
The boat when repaired will be better than new. As these guys have found out the build quality of most production yachts is horrible. If the repair is documented properly with photos and documents the boat may we'll be worth more than a standard boat. Anyone who knows about boats will seek a boat like this out. I have seen so many production boats with cracked grids and keel problems. This method of keel attachment is not fit for purpose. The grid should be glassed in, not just bonded, and the keel bolts should go through high density load transmitting stiffeners
@@jasonmcintosh2632 Yes someone will perhaps buy that boat as every now and than someone stupid comes along. As an oceangoing sailing vessel this boat has some serious faults from the beginning.
I'm feeling for you. In a past life I did a lot of offshore sailboat racing in what was then called ULDBs. In rough seas, going up wind, the pounding is relentless. My gut feel is that your boat can be repaired and made stronger than it was supposed to be.
I would say the choice is not between fin keel and full-length keel or integral keel. You need to look at the length of the root of the keel vs it's death and imagine the forces at play. You WILL run aground if you plan to have the yacht for a long time and go along distance and also you may well hit a whale log or sunfish or something else. The root of the keel is far too short and the aspect ratio too high for the structure to survive long-term with these sorts of events which inevitably will happen. The keel root is also on an extremely large flat portion of the hull which is also not good. If it were me I would not think that this type of boat is safe for circumnavigation. Actually it is also not very well suited to some beautiful areas of the world which are quite shallow. Especially those with coral reefs. There are also many many areas which are not properly chartered and amazingly some of these areas have very well travelled such as the barrier reef in Australia and certainly French Polynesia. I would be getting a different boat with a considerably larger ratio of the root of the keel to it's depth and also one which is not as flat on the bottom because flat surfaces are weak and flex much more than something with a little bit of wine glass shape. Yes this type of boat may not have quite as much room inside and will be a little slower and may not point quite as well but it will keep you safe. There are a whole spectrum of designs between very old style full-length keels (which is an extreme I am not suggesting) and the extreme type of shape which you now have. I believe you can do a much better trade-off between speed and safety which would keep you happy. In the long-term and not cause you excessive stress when there was bad weather or after you inevitably run a ground however softly. Good luck! PS I would also not be risking lung cancer doing an enormous amount of fibreglass work as even the best protective gear lets some dust past particularly where the mask meets your face .@@energiegeek5465
Happy and sad for you at the same time. I smiled and shed a tear or two. Lifelong sailor here that has limited experience with fiberglass work. It is tedious, it is uncomfortable, but it is doable by even a novice, as long as you have an instructor. Find out who the best fiberglass worker on the site is and hire him/her as a mentor. I started watching just before the two episodes that you took down. I've watched your progression. You've got this, it can be done. Your boat isn't the only one manufactured with the defects you've found and yet there aren't boats just spontaneously slinking. Once you complete the repairs your boat will be strongest Grand Soleil 46 on the water. I look forward to seeing more.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us and thank you for your compassion too. 🙂 We will have the work carried out by a specialist company in coordination with our experts. We also hope that after the repair she will be better than before! We are happy that you are here! ⛵️
I can tell you mine was repaired 8 years ago glassed in now instead of glued and is rock solid not a noise or creak down below .Like I said before to get the matrix back to the hull the boat must be hung to close up those cracks . The master yatch builder who repaired mine said it was 10x stronger then factory he also found glue that never touched during manufacturing .He would personally sail it across any ocean
Sounds great and we are happy for you! This feeling is exactly what you want to have after such a repair. It's so sad to hear about the fact that you also found poorly built areas.
Great video, respectfully suggesting you only repair using epoxy resin, having grounded our boat is North Sumatra, epoxy resin repairs made our boat stronger for the rest of our circumnavigation. We also sanded the hull and painted it with two coats of epoxy resin, protecting the hull in any future groundings. You can make her stronger than before.
Sure, it will be repaired to be stronger than it was before it went into the yard, but that was clearly a defective boat. HERE IS THE TRUTH: IT WILL NOT BE STRONGER!!!! than the design. If the boat was built properly to the design, any repair would be weaker. Fact is, a repair, even with epoxy, is just a mechanical bond. The original was a chemical bond. When laying fiberglass, the whole thing becomes one bond. When you repair, you just have a surface mechanical bond. You can grid off the old glass and add more layers than before, but all that new glass is still just connected to the old glass with a surface level mechanical bond, which is a lot weaker. Don't take my word for it. Look it up. Do your own research. It's your life.
@@dodystiller3718 Prove it. I get my information directly from fiberglass repair shops. One thing you have to remember when getting information from inspectors or repair shops or insurance companies is they tend to have a biased due to business reasons. My source had no reason to be biased as they didn't have time to do my repair anyway.
The accident may have been a blessing in disguise, as it revealed the defects that otherwise would have gone unnoticed. It's unsettling to consider the potential consequences if the hull had given way at sea. Once repaired, your vessel will be improved and more secure.
Sorry to tell: Around all stringers that have to be repaired you have to remove everything - hoses, cables and other installations. So if there is some more waiting time - there are jobs to fill in.
Disappointing to see that the lamination had dry spots but good to hear that the surveyors had confidence in repairs. It's quite a roller coaster you've been riding on. 🐬👍
First of all I wish you all the best and I feel sorry for you. What I do not understand is the fact that you seem to accept the poor built quality ! The fact that there are dry cloths in one of the most structutaly important parts of the boat ( keel area), should make you wonder about the rest of the hull/ deck. If they ( Grand Soleil) paid so little attention to the one of the most important parts of the boat ( quality control) , how much attention do you think they gave the rest of the boat? Maybe you should have asked the surveyor how to repair dry cloth throughout the hull, without knowing where the dry cloth is ( except the little part they found during the survey).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This has been on our minds as well. Having spoken to several knowledgeable people as well as the surveyors, unfortunately it seems to be a common theme now. The positive thing is that the boat will most likely be much more stable after the repair than before.
Yep. What I've come to hate about the modern boats is that you can't see what is broken. Older boats took longer to build but they are so much better....even after 40 years assuming you didn't get one that was poorly maintained and has water damage.
@@FranklinGray I think anyone who knows what they are looking for can see this kind of damage. In 2013 I went to the Caribbean to buy a boat. I looked at 8 boats, 7 of which had exactly this damage from grounding. I bought the 8th boat, A Hanse 430e which itself had little or no attachment of the main bulkhead to the boat for which I deducted a substantial sum & fixed it before sailing the boat to NZ. It was clear the bulkhead was never attached to the boat from new. There were many other problems with the Hanse all of which I fixed.
Most repair work on these mass production boats ends in a far more stronger boat than when it left the factory !!!... They say everything happens for a reason, better now than later...🤔 Set a goal and aim for it, and it will be so !!!.. Good luck, I will be watching in anticipation of the launch. ❤👍⛵
@@patandfrankiewhich is a sad indictment of production boat build quality standards of which you guys are just starting to become aware. It's worse than you can imagine. All production boats with few exceptions have terrible build "shortcuts". Even boats such as Oysters have some build quality issues, though not the keel attachment.
I really do feel for you both, you are both strong and I sincerely hope that the end result of this will be positive for you. Having said that, I am sure it's not just me who is really enjoying your content. Good luck both in whatever comes next.
NO I think, you will not bring her back to her shape - after a good repair it will be much sturdier. What I saw with Aurora showed a repair far beyond good. For me Aurora is now much better that it ever was.
No big deal dig out the unconsolidated material and bond and tab in anything that is not connected. Production boats that rely on bonded connections are junk unless they are epoxy. Still a good boat just use epoxy and biaxial cloth.
Ultra sound testing when the gel is still on can test for any other voids in the rest of the hull, cost £2-300. We did this on a 49 footer, found 20+ areas with delimitation, discounted the purchase price, had the gel striped, voids cut out, filled and faired then a full extra layer added of 400g bisexual glass, she is better than new, and for resale is proven to be sound. Took 8 weeks and £20k, but well worth it.
You want me to tell you; after that, I'm not ready to buy a Grand Soleil! Might as well take an old Jeanneau, Dufour or Beneteau or even Amel from before 1998 or after 2002! From what I was told, this period corresponds to the time when French manufacturers tried to increase their margins by reducing the proportions of resin before adding some after 2002! Maybe for Grand Soleil, the Italian manufacturer, this corresponds to another era
good news ? maybe ..would i trust the boat with my life ? not so sure .....has this type of damage been repaird before ?.and is the repaired vessel still sailing ?.....i would need a gurrantee of some kind for the repair for years to come ...good luck guys x
Thank you for your message and your wishes. We have of course asked ourselves these questions too and we have now heard from some sailors and specialists that they have had very good experiences with this kind of repair. The boats are mostly all stronger and better than before.
The right way to view it is that you are converting a production boat into a seaworthy vessel. The poor production quality is common. The damage is common. The repair should not be seen as a repair, but as an upgrade, except you previously did not know to need that. Any other boat of that class may look the same.
That is exactly what we have learned during this time. You speak from our souls and we assume that this repair will make the boat better than ever before. 🙂
Seriously. Buy a proper boat designed for offshore sailing. This type of manufacturing fault will be throughout the whole hull and it's your lives you are risking. There are many well made yachts available. Why sail one that's badly made. The oceans are a dangerous playground.
Hey guys, sorry to hear about your boat. Fixing it might be a good thing as modern boats are NOT being built as strong as years ago due to the constant pressure on saving on build costs. It would help if you looked at the following channel, as they had a comparable issue and had to get their boat fixed. He documented it and is also available to reach out for advice and help. www.youtube.com/@SailingAurora. Good luck, and keep us posted!!
Do not walk away from this boat. RUN AWAY!. Poor build quality will not be limited to the keel grid. Cheap building is chap building across the building process. Even if you rebuild it better you still have an unsuitable design for blue water sailing. In some jurisdiction the law provides that if the damage is 50% or more of the insured value then at the owner's option they can recover the full amount of the policy. Find a lawyer who knows maritime insurance law and find out what your options are.
This is the best advice I have seen. I have worked for 4 different style boat builders (Wood, hand lay up, resin infusion and chop gun) and there is no way I would cross oceans in a boat with that type of damage repaired.
If it was delaminated under the keel, how can you be certain there are not other weak and poorly manufactured areas which have not been tested? The lack of quality control is very concerning.
Ultra sound testing when the gel is still on can test for any other voids in the rest of the hull, cost £200-300. We did this on a 49 footer, found 20+ areas with delimitation, discounted the purchase price, had the gel striped, voids cut out, filled and faired then a full extra layer added of 400g bisexual glass, she is better than new, and for resale is proven to be sound. Took 8 weeks and £20k, but well worth it.
Lack of resin is not to make it light it's a faulty lay up and was not wet out properly. It could also be the manufacturer trying to control resin amounts too closely for profit reasons. Whatever the reason it is unacceptable and obviously poor workmanship.
@@patandfrankie I am not sure what happened to my post explaining why it will not be stronger. I came back to explain it in more understanding terms but it's gone. Think of this repair as gluing together 2 pieces of wood. What would be stronger? A 2 inch thick board or two 1 inch boards glued together? When you build a boat, the final result, due to Chemical bonds, is 1 solid piece. When you repair a boat, the final result is 2 pieces (new glass is 1 piece and the old glass is the other piece) glued together with a mechanical bond. It doesn't matter how thick the new glass is, it's still just glued to the old glass. So which do you think is really stronger? This sounds to me like the insurance company is going to be putting somebody's life in danger, whether it is yours or the person you sell the boat too.
Erstmal hallo ihr 2. Und mein Beileid für das Disaster. Wenn ihr Bootsbauerhilfe für eure Reparatur braucht, dann fragt gerne. Schöne Grüße aus Kiel. Paddy
You are where the previous owner of the Project Evans boat was before they bought it. The method of joining the hull to the grid is not adequate for heavy use. Their boat was grounded and broke the grid out too. They had to remove the keel, remove the grid, force the grid down onto the hull, then glass it in place. I wouldn't want to take a factory fresh Beneteau across the oceans and into shallow water. But I wouldn't be concerned about buying and operating one that I had seen properly glassed together. Beneteau should be on the receiving end of a class action for their poor construction. But then I am not a naval architect, or a boat builder, so don't rely on my opinion. Looking forward to seeing your boat properly repaired.
So if I understand correctly, your boat was poorly built by Grand Soleil and that's why everything cracked when they made the keel touch? Did you contact Grand Soleil?
The result of the survey showed us that there are some parts of the boat that were poorly built. We learned that this is sadly not unusual with the so called "production boats" and it astonished us. As mentioned in the video it was probably a combination of different factors that led to this damage and not only the building quality. Please understand that is not possible to point out one particular reason and we do not want to blame somebody at this point. We try to get in contact with them.
@@patandfrankieI would be looking very carefully at the surveyor you employed when buying the boat. I have seen so many instances of this damage from undeclared grounding. I have seen one tragedy where a boat lost its keel and the previous owner was sued - unsuccessfully- for manslaughter for not declaring a grounding when selling the boat.
@@deerfootnz Thanks for the tip. If we ever sell our Hi, we will definitely be open about the repaired damage. For us, the repair is more of a strength than a weakness.
I have been following your adventures for a short time now and I thank you for it. A question: where do these serious problems with the hull come from? What accident? Courage to you both!
Thanks for your message and for following us. As mentioned in the video, it's probably a combination of things. However, as we are still in the middle of the overall process, we can't say anything about this at the moment. Thank you for your understanding!
Hi Pat, Frankie What a nerf breaking story! But look forward! [ ] Your learn very much even by dismanteling your boat. [ ] I follow the Parlay Survival TH-cam channel as well. This is something you must see. This boat became much, much stronger after own repairs. [ ] It looks like the repairs ended in two parts: the damage repairs covered under insurance and the bad structure layers under the keel. [ ] I really hope that also this repairs will be covered by the insurance or the company who made this error. [ ] Maybe you both can be of any assistance to lower the costs of repair. [ ] But the really good point is, not only the boat, but also you both, will come out stronger after repairs. You even know your boat better! [ ] Stay positive, save, and look forward what next year brings. Best regards Dirk
Hi Dirk! Thank you for your positiv and uplifting words! We are learning a lot on the way. Best from us! 🙂
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You can repair the boat better than new perhaps . But if and when you run the boat aground ,say hitting a rock at 7 knots or even drying out alonside a wall with a swell the keel martrix will break again and the boat will most likely sink . Sure i know bulb high aspect ratio keels have sailed many miles but do you know many experianced sailors who have not had a grounding of one sort or another ? In a decent yard this type of hull / keel design would sit in its own custom cradle with very little weight taken on the keel . The design is a problem and try not to be seduced by the Ikea modern styling of this boat which seems so liveaboard friendly
Worrying to see here the old claims that deep blade keels and no-skeg rudders on shallow hulls are not for crossing oceans. 100s of these types of boat do it every year; try looking at the ARC entries, or similar. Even Clipper Around the World boat hulls are flat and twin blade rudder. True the ride may not be as smooth as a long deep keel on a narrow hull. But it’s just not true to say current design production boats are not suited to ocean crossing. P&F, if you want some reference material supporting my view, let me know.
Thank you for your opinion on this topic! We also think that it is possible with a wide variety of boats and they all have their advantages/disadvantages and everyone has to choose what suits them best. Nevertheless, this process teaches us a lot and that is the positive thing about it!
When you two start the retrofit process, your new ideas and design choices will become more important as you get closer to putting your boat back into the water. A newer version of your yacht. Have great memories as you go forward.
After all of this I would have some serious questions to ask the manufacturer of your boat! If the boat can't be hauled and rested on its keel, there is some serious Mistakes made in the deisgn and engineering of a that as a cruising sailboat
This is absolutely correct. That boat is a total loss. Their best bet is to walk away. I cannot believe they paid 280,00 Euros for it. They could have had Swan or Contest or Oyster for that kind of money.
@@bobgranafei6809Neither of you know what you are talking about. As an experienced sailor with an engineering degree and 206,000 miles, 11 transatlantics and 5 pacific crossings I much prefer fin keel and spade rudder boats. It comes down to the detail of exactly how they are built. I would NOT prefer any production boat, but there are boats such as the Schumacher designed Outbound 46 or the Paine designed offerings from Morris yachts. My own Sundeer 60 is a full spade rudder and fin keel but is as safe as houses in any grounding plus has two watertight bulkheads. If this boat is repaired competently then it's much stronger than new
I would negotiate with the insurance company and start again, a repaired boat will never have a good resale value. Look for a proper ocean crosser ,they are far more comfortable when you are hundreds of miles from land in a blow.
That might not be such a blessing if they can't properly wet out a fiberglass lamination during manufacture. At this point I'd be more inclined to work with the trouble I know about than jumping onto the ride of another mystery tour. Manufactures should have to fully document the production of their boats much as the aircraft industry does with planes. I'd want to see pictures and check sheets and test results of every aspect of the hull construction and fit out.
Hi Pat & Frankie, I'm so glad to hear this. Personally I don't believe there was dry glass between the keel bolt on plate and hull. That is an extremely easy part of the lamination process to do, dead flat and really in front of your eyes, no shadows no obstructions, no tricky bits to laminate. It's easy to blame the manufacturer but seeing the internals of your yacht, it's very well built, far above the average. The leverage from your keel in that accident was incredible, the entire weight of the boat multiplied by the leverage affect of the length of your keel which is metal against fiberglass. That same leverage bent those super strong bolts! That is not dry glass, it's sheered glass, the force has torn it apart, delaminated by incredible sideways force. In appearance it looks like the glass is dry but in fact it's layers of shattered glass fiber. This is easily repaired, dusty yes, as you'll need to grind out all the damaged areas but a very basic repair job. You'll need to rip out the stringers and rebuild them, at least that's what I would do, so that you 100% know the integrity has been replaced with as good or better than new condition. Now it's just a matter of hard dusty, sweaty, smelly and hot work to get it done. But once done you'll be so very proud and on your way to make your dreams once again come to life! I honestly believe your yacht was and remains an exceptionally well built yacht. One look at the floor structure tells you how much thought was put into it. Dong be too hard on yourselves, you bought well and that yacht will look after you for decades to come! Cheers guys 🍻🍻
Thank you for your opinion and the encouraging words. Thank you for your positive words. We also believe that our yacht is of a high standard for this class. We don't want to blame anyone, but it's frightening that it's probably more often the case these days - where people work, mistakes are made and that's part of it. Cheers!
@patandfrankie That particular area of the hull during the manufacturing /laminating process is typically resin rich and many thin laminates /passes made. Its extremely unlikely in the highest order that there was dry glass, if there was it would have been like a sponge, you would have seen water slowly dripping/leaking from the water logged dry glass which would have turned black in color by now. Put your mind at rest, you've got a beautiful well built yacht that's experienced a tragic accident and now will be repaired. Onwards and upwards 😃😃
That whole grid / matrix is coming out. Do not try to repair that boat. Do not accept the claim. Please get your money and get something other than a Beneteau…lesson learned
Thank you for your opinion. We will definitely repair her as best as possible - that was also the result of the survey. And we would also like to inform you that it is not a Beneteau.
Not good news about the delamination in the keel area steming from poor building. Also, if the job is covered by insurance why are you working on it? Good luck
It is not yet clear if everything is covered and since it is our boat and our home, we would like to be part of the process. And there is probably no other way to learn as much as in this case. Thank you!
More story content please. Less click bait and theatrical emotion use... This is a decision around what insurance will cover and what you want to do personally.
Sail across the Atlantic?? I wouldent sail across a lake in this boat! What else is hidden? The build quality is obviously very poor, due to exreamly poor lamination in such a critical area as the keel plate, and this is not a blue water sail boat with the awful blade keel. Scrap it and get a long keel true blue water sailor, we are talking about a notoriously dangerous stretch of water, the Atlantic!
"How can that be"? IMHO, French production boats are junk. I would never cross an ocean on one. Sure, people do it all the time, but some don't make it.
@@jefersonerbrad4461 Thanks for the clarification, but it is clear the boat is made for the light winds of the Med Sea, not for crossing oceans and the quality is clearly lacking for even that.
I told you repairing this boat does not make sense, get the money and throw it away. Even for the resell point of view in case you will repair and at the end of your journey decide to sell nobody will buy this wreck
@@ForTheReels It's true though. If you grew up at the edge of the ocean you'd have a much different view of the sea and of boats than the general public has. The sea is relentlessly welcoming you to your imminent death. Don't think of it as your "buddy"...still, there is a lot of recreational enjoyment to be had.
Out of experience with our C&C 41; 2 Months after the first grinders hit the boat you get your boat back. Our boat was better (more stiff) after the repair and 14 years later we still have the boat (about 11000 offshore miles)
Yes you can probably get some carbon fiber and do a repair, but what will this hull look like 5-10 years from now? Where will it delaminate next? I don't understand why this isn't a write-off, how can you even sell it in the future?
Because the surveyor found dry laminate in the hull keel pocket then I would advise you guys to pull the rudder while the boat is out of the water and go through the rudder & steering system very thoroughly. In particular I would check the rudder blade for water ingress and the integrity of the stock. Many of the produvtion boats I deliver have steering issues. Most of the production boats with stainless stocks have rudders full of water. Many of the FRP stocks have problems too with overtorqued clamps or dry laminate. On almost half of the Beneteaus I have delivered there have been steering system failures.
Thank you for your advice.
p.s. This is not a Beneteau.
I agree - but I have another concern: Many of the production boats have relative weak construction around the rudder shaft. So my advice, ask the surveyor what can / should be done there. I heard about many boats (some even lost) because of hard impact on the rudder - then crashing the shaft basis. So if the glass is all around perhaps doing some enforcement.
#1 you both are safe and secure and in no danger !
THATS A GREAT STARTING POINT !
Have you both watched "Expedition Evans"? They bought a damaged boat where the inner frame had separated from the hull. they had to remove the keel as well. Took some time, but they have since travelled the Caribbean and sailed the Atlantic and are now in the Med
Thanks! Yes, we watched them! 😉
Exact same issue with Evans... poor manufacturing leaving it vulnerable to easy damage through grounding or poor yard work.
A lot of work... one difference with Evans is that they saved the money because they knew what they were getting into.
Between your insurance and the yards insurance, let them have it and buy something you can sail... unless you want to do the work.
I am also going to unsubscribe if videos keep being 2 parts click-bait, 3 parts emotion and only 1 part actual story content.
Compare to Uma... they are almost all story content, even if it is a side-quest hike or a truck project... it is all content and when there is something emotional, they do it with intellectual honesty, not hamming it up for the camera.
I just wanted to say that your both are great and I can't imagine the stress you are going through, but maybe it helps to know that there are people like myself that send you all the best wishes for the future and your boat. Keep your chin's up and stay strong together.
Thanks a lot for your kind words-it does help to know that you (& others) are thinking about us and cheering us on! 🙂All the best to you too!
Your young strong positive minds will get you thru this mess. Before you know you are watching the sunrise over the ocean again. Thanks for sharing & best wishes.
Thank you for this uplifting words! 😀
Now you can take a somewhat deep breath. Sailing Uma is doing an entire refit of their boat. Keep smiling you two!
Thank you! We do 🙂
Me alegro mucho por vosotros pues creo que ha llegado el momento en el que pueden ver con claridad hacia el futuro. El análisis de los especialistas es por lo visto muy preciso y esto hace posible que luego de los arreglos tengáis un velero mejor aún que uno nuevo. Sigo manteniendo los dedos cruzados para que todo salga bien. Mis felicitaciones por vuestra actitud siempre tan positiva! 🤞🙂
Gracias por tu comentario y tus deseos. También nos entusiasmó mucho el trabajo de los expertos, que pusieron mucho empeño en ello. Ahora trabajaremos para hacerlo aún mejor que antes. ⛵🙂
Perhaps the correct questions to the insurance company is 'When the fixes are done, will you put in writing that you will continue to insure the boat?", and 'how will the fixes affect the title?".
Now to any future, potential buyers, "how would finding out that these fixes were done affect your offer, would you walk away, lower offer, raise offer? "
We have already asked the insurance company this question and received a positive response. We will probably only be able to clarify all other questions in the future.
@@patandfrankieIt's not difficult to effect a repair that is substantially better than new. In part that is a reflection of the poor quality of the original build, with most production boats opting for low cost solutions that are in my view and that of many others, not fit for purpose. Some do it properly: take a look at X-yachts keel attachment. This is why fin keel & spade rudder boats have a bad name: there is nothing inherently wrong with fin keels and spade rudders, but so often they are very badly engineered and constructed.
Good that the surveyor is thorough and is getting the whole story on what needs to be fixed. Hope the insurance company will step up and settle things so you can move forward. Cheers!
Thank you 🙏🏼 We hope so too, but there is no final result yet.
It's one thing to have a keel touch and to cause a few issues. I think every surveyor will agree that the keel touch did not cause all of the damage and the failure to bond in multiple areas is a failure by the manufacturer. They should be involved at some point. And if they say it's wear and tear or it's age then they're basically saying that their boats have a "use by date".
Best of luck in all this.
Thanks for your evaluation. Unfortunately, you see this issue with almost all products these days, that some of them are no longer built the way they were a few years ago..
Thank you for your wishes!
Pat and Frankie, Hello again. Your surveyor seems like he might know his stuff which I am happy to see. It's great that he found the dry glass in the keel pocket area since you certainly want to fix that. Maybe as a part of getting to know your boat and to better understand the project you should get in there with your own hammer and tap and mark any questionable areas? As you have likely already figured out, good glass will have a sharp "ring" and delaminated or dry glass will create a dull sound when you tap it so there isn't much magic to the process. Production boats will always have some defects in the layup. There unfortunately seems to be a lot more dry glass issues with the resin infusion type methods than with the old tried and true hand lay ups. Your repair work will likely be mostly hand laid so there will be the opportunity to get a good look at the layup. Freshly ground surfaces are essential for a good bond between the new and the old. Also where the original shell is damaged, your new material needs to be "scarfed" into the original material. This is also pretty simple. Scarfing is simply grinding the original glass back to a taper which greatly increases the bonding area. I like when possible to go 10:1 in structural areas, (you will likely be told that a more shallow angle is ok. If you have any concerns layup some samples of old and new glass and break them to see how the joint between the new and the old glass is holding and then decide on the scarf angle that you want) if your original shell is being cut completely through and is 1/2" thick, the scarf would be 5" long. What you said about it being possible to repair this boat so that she is stronger than new is certainly possible and given your sailing plans, why not make this the primary objective? To build back stronger you will need to add weight but this is going down deep in the hull so at least is not raising the CG but it will raise your confidence in the boat if done right. Wishing you both the best. J&J
Hi Jim,
Thank you very much for your comments and advice, which we are happy to take on board. This will certainly help us to better understand and monitor the further process.
Nice to have you with us.
Best
Pat & Frankie
If you can secure a good settlement from the insurance company, then consider this a valuable experience in truly understanding the toughness and seaworthiness of your boat. I’ve sailed all my life and currently keep my boat in the Algarve in Portugal. From experience , when you’re out in bad weather, there is no better reassurance than knowing you’re aboard a strong, ship type vessel. That’s exactly what you’ll have once the work is complete. Have faith in your boat and the journey ahead. Wishing you the best of luck. Safe Sailing !
Thank you for your words!
Well, this was eye opening, having a week spot on the keel foundation is unacceptable. However, I believe this can be restored even stronger than the original build, but at what cost and how much time. I am very impressed with how you two are handling this. At least you will know every aspect of your boat literally inside and out.
Thank you! 🙂 Yes, it has definitely given us more clarity and we also believe that we can make them much stronger than before.
OK, this boat is economically repairable for the insurance company, which means that they'd rather pay 150,000 euros for the repairs than reimburse you for a total loss of 280,000 euros (for example).
With this ‘solution’, you'll end up with a boat that can never be sold, and you'll be the one to suffer a huge loss in value.
Take my word for it: negotiate with the insurance company for a sum somewhere between these two extremes, take the money and buy a real sailing yacht, more modest but more seaworthy and less expensive, like an HR39 that can be found for 140 KE.
It's not the size of the yacht that makes the quality of the trip.
Someone speeking with sense!
I disagree that the boat won't be sellable. If all the damage and repairs are well documented and disclosed, you may need to give the boat a 10% or 20% (more?) discount, but hell you can sell anything.
The boat when repaired will be better than new. As these guys have found out the build quality of most production yachts is horrible. If the repair is documented properly with photos and documents the boat may we'll be worth more than a standard boat. Anyone who knows about boats will seek a boat like this out. I have seen so many production boats with cracked grids and keel problems. This method of keel attachment is not fit for purpose. The grid should be glassed in, not just bonded, and the keel bolts should go through high density load transmitting stiffeners
@@jasonmcintosh2632 Yes someone will perhaps buy that boat as every now and than someone stupid comes along. As an oceangoing sailing vessel this boat has some serious faults from the beginning.
I'm feeling for you. In a past life I did a lot of offshore sailboat racing in what was then called ULDBs. In rough seas, going up wind, the pounding is relentless. My gut feel is that your boat can be repaired and made stronger than it was supposed to be.
We are pleased to hear that you share this opinion.
@@patandfrankie FWIW - An easy to read article regarding some pros and cons of a fin keel - author Herb Benavent 2016.
@@patandfrankie Personally, I have no doubts about that either!
I would say the choice is not between fin keel and full-length keel or integral keel.
You need to look at the length of the root of the keel vs it's death and imagine the forces at play. You WILL run aground if you plan to have the yacht for a long time and go along distance and also you may well hit a whale log or sunfish or something else. The root of the keel is far too short and the aspect ratio too high for the structure to survive long-term with these sorts of events which inevitably will happen. The keel root is also on an extremely large flat portion of the hull which is also not good.
If it were me I would not think that this type of boat is safe for circumnavigation. Actually it is also not very well suited to some beautiful areas of the world which are quite shallow. Especially those with coral reefs. There are also many many areas which are not properly chartered and amazingly some of these areas have very well travelled such as the barrier reef in Australia and certainly French Polynesia.
I would be getting a different boat with a considerably larger ratio of the root of the keel to it's depth and also one which is not as flat on the bottom because flat surfaces are weak and flex much more than something with a little bit of wine glass shape. Yes this type of boat may not have quite as much room inside and will be a little slower and may not point quite as well but it will keep you safe. There are a whole spectrum of designs between very old style full-length keels (which is an extreme I am not suggesting) and the extreme type of shape which you now have. I believe you can do a much better trade-off between speed and safety which would keep you happy. In the long-term and not cause you excessive stress when there was bad weather or after you inevitably run a ground however softly.
Good luck!
PS I would also not be risking lung cancer doing an enormous amount of fibreglass work as even the best protective gear lets some dust past particularly where the mask meets your face .@@energiegeek5465
I'm very amazed by your spirit through all this, Bless you both.👍🏻🙏🏻
Thanks 😊
You guys are so strong!!
🙏
Happy and sad for you at the same time. I smiled and shed a tear or two. Lifelong sailor here that has limited experience with fiberglass work. It is tedious, it is uncomfortable, but it is doable by even a novice, as long as you have an instructor. Find out who the best fiberglass worker on the site is and hire him/her as a mentor. I started watching just before the two episodes that you took down. I've watched your progression. You've got this, it can be done. Your boat isn't the only one manufactured with the defects you've found and yet there aren't boats just spontaneously slinking. Once you complete the repairs your boat will be strongest Grand Soleil 46 on the water. I look forward to seeing more.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us and thank you for your compassion too. 🙂 We will have the work carried out by a specialist company in coordination with our experts. We also hope that after the repair she will be better than before! We are happy that you are here! ⛵️
I can tell you mine was repaired 8 years ago glassed in now instead of glued and is rock solid not a noise or creak down below .Like I said before to get the matrix back to the hull the boat must be hung to close up those cracks . The master yatch builder who repaired mine said it was 10x stronger then factory he also found glue that never touched during manufacturing .He would personally sail it across any ocean
Sounds great and we are happy for you! This feeling is exactly what you want to have after such a repair. It's so sad to hear about the fact that you also found poorly built areas.
Great video, respectfully suggesting you only repair using epoxy resin, having grounded our boat is North Sumatra, epoxy resin repairs made our boat stronger for the rest of our circumnavigation. We also sanded the hull and painted it with two coats of epoxy resin, protecting the hull in any future groundings. You can make her stronger than before.
Thanks! We are pretty sure that she will be stronger after the repair 🙂 We'll make sure to use epoxy!
Sure, it will be repaired to be stronger than it was before it went into the yard, but that was clearly a defective boat.
HERE IS THE TRUTH: IT WILL NOT BE STRONGER!!!! than the design. If the boat was built properly to the design, any repair would be weaker.
Fact is, a repair, even with epoxy, is just a mechanical bond. The original was a chemical bond. When laying fiberglass, the whole thing becomes one bond. When you repair, you just have a surface mechanical bond. You can grid off the old glass and add more layers than before, but all that new glass is still just connected to the old glass with a surface level mechanical bond, which is a lot weaker.
Don't take my word for it. Look it up. Do your own research. It's your life.
@@FranklinGraythe mechanical bond using Epoxy is as strong if not even stronger than the original polyester.
@@dodystiller3718 Prove it. I get my information directly from fiberglass repair shops.
One thing you have to remember when getting information from inspectors or repair shops or insurance companies is they tend to have a biased due to business reasons. My source had no reason to be biased as they didn't have time to do my repair anyway.
@FranklinGray the manufacturer, West System.
The accident may have been a blessing in disguise, as it revealed the defects that otherwise would have gone unnoticed. It's unsettling to consider the potential consequences if the hull had given way at sea. Once repaired, your vessel will be improved and more secure.
Sorry to tell: Around all stringers that have to be repaired you have to remove everything - hoses, cables and other installations. So if there is some more waiting time - there are jobs to fill in.
Disappointing to see that the lamination had dry spots but good to hear that the surveyors had confidence in repairs. It's quite a roller coaster you've been riding on. 🐬👍
It is definitely disappointing..
Thanks for being here with us 🙂
First of all I wish you all the best and I feel sorry for you. What I do not understand is the fact that you seem to accept the poor built quality ! The fact that there are dry cloths in one of the most structutaly important parts of the boat ( keel area), should make you wonder about the rest of the hull/ deck. If they ( Grand Soleil) paid so little attention to the one of the most important parts of the boat ( quality control) , how much attention do you think they gave the rest of the boat?
Maybe you should have asked the surveyor how to repair dry cloth throughout the hull, without knowing where the dry cloth is ( except the little part they found during the survey).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This has been on our minds as well. Having spoken to several knowledgeable people as well as the surveyors, unfortunately it seems to be a common theme now. The positive thing is that the boat will most likely be much more stable after the repair than before.
It would be good to mount load cell sensors on those pesky stringers to monitor any future movement.
Oh wow, we haven't heard of that. Thanks for the idea!
People out there crossing oceans all the while having no idea they are on the cusp of sinking...
Yep. What I've come to hate about the modern boats is that you can't see what is broken. Older boats took longer to build but they are so much better....even after 40 years assuming you didn't get one that was poorly maintained and has water damage.
@@FranklinGray I think anyone who knows what they are looking for can see this kind of damage. In 2013 I went to the Caribbean to buy a boat. I looked at 8 boats, 7 of which had exactly this damage from grounding. I bought the 8th boat, A Hanse 430e which itself had little or no attachment of the main bulkhead to the boat for which I deducted a substantial sum & fixed it before sailing the boat to NZ. It was clear the bulkhead was never attached to the boat from new. There were many other problems with the Hanse all of which I fixed.
You just have to think: it's better to discover the damage on dry land than halfway across the ocean. Good luck with the further steps.
So true - we are absolutely happy about this fact. 👍🏼Thanks!
Most repair work on these mass production boats ends in a far more stronger boat than when it left the factory !!!... They say everything happens for a reason, better now than later...🤔 Set a goal and aim for it, and it will be so !!!.. Good luck, I will be watching in anticipation of the launch. ❤👍⛵
Thanks for your kind words! We also believe she will be stronger than before. We are looking ahead and thanks for your support! 🫶🏼
@@patandfrankiewhich is a sad indictment of production boat build quality standards of which you guys are just starting to become aware. It's worse than you can imagine. All production boats with few exceptions have terrible build "shortcuts". Even boats such as Oysters have some build quality issues, though not the keel attachment.
Hi to Hi
das sied ja fast wie in einem OP Saal aus. Wünsche euch viel Kraft für die Zeit bis ihr wieder auf dem Wasser seid.🥰
Ja, so kommen wir ins auch manchmal vor. Dankeschön ❤️
I really do feel for you both, you are both strong and I sincerely hope that the end result of this will be positive for you. Having said that, I am sure it's not just me who is really enjoying your content. Good luck both in whatever comes next.
Thanks for your positiv feedback and your kind words. 🙏🏼
Next weeks is optimism…. But months of work makes it possible!!! Good luck and we will follow ❤ stay optimistic and push through 🎉
Thank you! 🫶🏼
NO I think, you will not bring her back to her shape - after a good repair it will be much sturdier.
What I saw with Aurora showed a repair far beyond good. For me Aurora is now much better that it ever was.
You must make a repare plan agreed with all parties involved, manufacture, repaireshop, designer ensurance.
What was the re-sale value before this happened, what is the re-sale value now (both before and after being repaired)?
No big deal dig out the unconsolidated material and bond and tab in anything that is not connected. Production boats that rely on bonded connections are junk unless they are epoxy. Still a good boat just use epoxy and biaxial cloth.
Keel bolts bent, the plate and surrounding structures damaged, indicates there was a grounding sufficient to displace the keel.
We didn’t have a grounding and had the boat lifted multiple times and inspected by a surveyor just one year ago when we purchased it..
Ultra sound testing when the gel is still on can test for any other voids in the rest of the hull, cost £2-300. We did this on a 49 footer, found 20+ areas with delimitation, discounted the purchase price, had the gel striped, voids cut out, filled and faired then a full extra layer added of 400g bisexual glass, she is better than new, and for resale is proven to be sound. Took 8 weeks and £20k, but well worth it.
bisexual glass! you're a beautiful one!
@ haha. sb biaxial, but too funny to edit out. Tx.
@@antonysmyth2464 🤣
@@antonysmyth2464Its bisexual glass for ever more in my mind...
You want me to tell you; after that, I'm not ready to buy a Grand Soleil!
Might as well take an old Jeanneau, Dufour or Beneteau or even Amel from before 1998 or after 2002!
From what I was told, this period corresponds to the time when French manufacturers tried to increase their margins by reducing the proportions of resin before adding some after 2002!
Maybe for Grand Soleil, the Italian manufacturer, this corresponds to another era
good news ? maybe ..would i trust the boat with my life ? not so sure .....has this type of damage been repaird before ?.and is the repaired vessel still sailing ?.....i would need a gurrantee of some kind for the repair for years to come ...good luck guys x
Thank you for your message and your wishes. We have of course asked ourselves these questions too and we have now heard from some sailors and specialists that they have had very good experiences with this kind of repair. The boats are mostly all stronger and better than before.
The right way to view it is that you are converting a production boat into a seaworthy vessel. The poor production quality is common. The damage is common. The repair should not be seen as a repair, but as an upgrade, except you previously did not know to need that. Any other boat of that class may look the same.
That is exactly what we have learned during this time. You speak from our souls and we assume that this repair will make the boat better than ever before. 🙂
Seriously. Buy a proper boat designed for offshore sailing. This type of manufacturing fault will be throughout the whole hull and it's your lives you are risking. There are many well made yachts available. Why sail one that's badly made. The oceans are a dangerous playground.
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
Hey guys, sorry to hear about your boat. Fixing it might be a good thing as modern boats are NOT being built as strong as years ago due to the constant pressure on saving on build costs. It would help if you looked at the following channel, as they had a comparable issue and had to get their boat fixed. He documented it and is also available to reach out for advice and help. www.youtube.com/@SailingAurora. Good luck, and keep us posted!!
Thanks for your comment and following our journey!
We watched the channel 😊
Do not walk away from this boat. RUN AWAY!. Poor build quality will not be limited to the keel grid. Cheap building is chap building across the building process. Even if you rebuild it better you still have an unsuitable design for blue water sailing. In some jurisdiction the law provides that if the damage is 50% or more of the insured value then at the owner's option they can recover the full amount of the policy. Find a lawyer who knows maritime insurance law and find out what your options are.
This is the best advice I have seen. I have worked for 4 different style boat builders (Wood, hand lay up, resin infusion and chop gun) and there is no way I would cross oceans in a boat with that type of damage repaired.
If it was delaminated under the keel, how can you be certain there are not other weak and poorly manufactured areas which have not been tested? The lack of quality control is very concerning.
Our experts have worked very thoroughly and we will try to check and optimize as much as possible in this process.
What is just as concerning is the lack of resin. These production boat companies go so far to make them light that it makes them unsafe.
Ultra sound testing when the gel is still on can test for any other voids in the rest of the hull, cost £200-300. We did this on a 49 footer, found 20+ areas with delimitation, discounted the purchase price, had the gel striped, voids cut out, filled and faired then a full extra layer added of 400g bisexual glass, she is better than new, and for resale is proven to be sound. Took 8 weeks and £20k, but well worth it.
Lack of resin is not to make it light it's a faulty lay up and was not wet out properly. It could also be the manufacturer trying to control resin amounts too closely for profit reasons. Whatever the reason it is unacceptable and obviously poor workmanship.
@@patandfrankie I am not sure what happened to my post explaining why it will not be stronger. I came back to explain it in more understanding terms but it's gone.
Think of this repair as gluing together 2 pieces of wood. What would be stronger? A 2 inch thick board or two 1 inch boards glued together?
When you build a boat, the final result, due to Chemical bonds, is 1 solid piece.
When you repair a boat, the final result is 2 pieces (new glass is 1 piece and the old glass is the other piece) glued together with a mechanical bond. It doesn't matter how thick the new glass is, it's still just glued to the old glass.
So which do you think is really stronger?
This sounds to me like the insurance company is going to be putting somebody's life in danger, whether it is yours or the person you sell the boat too.
Erstmal hallo ihr 2. Und mein Beileid für das Disaster. Wenn ihr Bootsbauerhilfe für eure Reparatur braucht, dann fragt gerne. Schöne Grüße aus Kiel. Paddy
Vielen Dank Paddy! Gerne kommen wir darauf zurück, falls Bedarf besteht. Beste Grüße nach Kiel, Pat & Frankie
You are where the previous owner of the Project Evans boat was before they bought it. The method of joining the hull to the grid is not adequate for heavy use. Their boat was grounded and broke the grid out too. They had to remove the keel, remove the grid, force the grid down onto the hull, then glass it in place. I wouldn't want to take a factory fresh Beneteau across the oceans and into shallow water. But I wouldn't be concerned about buying and operating one that I had seen properly glassed together. Beneteau should be on the receiving end of a class action for their poor construction. But then I am not a naval architect, or a boat builder, so don't rely on my opinion. Looking forward to seeing your boat properly repaired.
Thank you for your opinion and for joining us on the journey 🙂
So if I understand correctly, your boat was poorly built by Grand Soleil and that's why everything cracked when they made the keel touch?
Did you contact Grand Soleil?
The result of the survey showed us that there are some parts of the boat that were poorly built. We learned that this is sadly not unusual with the so called "production boats" and it astonished us.
As mentioned in the video it was probably a combination of different factors that led to this damage and not only the building quality. Please understand that is not possible to point out one particular reason and we do not want to blame somebody at this point.
We try to get in contact with them.
@@patandfrankieI would be looking very carefully at the surveyor you employed when buying the boat. I have seen so many instances of this damage from undeclared grounding. I have seen one tragedy where a boat lost its keel and the previous owner was sued - unsuccessfully- for manslaughter for not declaring a grounding when selling the boat.
@@deerfootnz Thanks for the tip. If we ever sell our Hi, we will definitely be open about the repaired damage. For us, the repair is more of a strength than a weakness.
Have your boat ultasounded to determine if any other areas of delaminations ord lack of fussion in the fiberglass.
I have been following your adventures for a short time now and I thank you for it.
A question: where do these serious problems with the hull come from? What accident?
Courage to you both!
Thanks for your message and for following us.
As mentioned in the video, it's probably a combination of things. However, as we are still in the middle of the overall process, we can't say anything about this at the moment. Thank you for your understanding!
Hi Pat, Frankie
What a nerf breaking story!
But look forward!
[ ] Your learn very much even by dismanteling your boat.
[ ] I follow the Parlay Survival TH-cam channel as well. This is something you must see. This boat became much, much stronger after own repairs.
[ ] It looks like the repairs ended in two parts: the damage repairs covered under insurance and the bad structure layers under the keel.
[ ] I really hope that also this repairs will be covered by the insurance or the company who made this error.
[ ] Maybe you both can be of any assistance to lower the costs of repair.
[ ] But the really good point is, not only the boat, but also you both, will come out stronger after repairs. You even know your boat better!
[ ] Stay positive, save, and look forward what next year brings.
Best regards Dirk
Hi Dirk! Thank you for your positiv and uplifting words! We are learning a lot on the way.
Best from us!
🙂
You can repair the boat better than new perhaps . But if and when you run the boat aground ,say hitting a rock at 7 knots or even drying out alonside a wall with a swell the keel martrix will break again and the boat will most likely sink . Sure i know bulb high aspect ratio keels have sailed many miles but do you know many experianced sailors who have not had a grounding of one sort or another ? In a decent yard this type of hull / keel design would sit in its own custom cradle with very little weight taken on the keel . The design is a problem and try not to be seduced by the Ikea modern styling of this boat which seems so liveaboard friendly
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
@@patandfrankie What utter nonsense. If repaired properly the boat will be much stronger than new. What an idiot.
Worrying to see here the old claims that deep blade keels and no-skeg rudders on shallow hulls are not for crossing oceans. 100s of these types of boat do it every year; try looking at the ARC entries, or similar. Even Clipper Around the World boat hulls are flat and twin blade rudder. True the ride may not be as smooth as a long deep keel on a narrow hull. But it’s just not true to say current design production boats are not suited to ocean crossing. P&F, if you want some reference material supporting my view, let me know.
Thank you for your opinion on this topic! We also think that it is possible with a wide variety of boats and they all have their advantages/disadvantages and everyone has to choose what suits them best.
Nevertheless, this process teaches us a lot and that is the positive thing about it!
When you two start the retrofit process, your new ideas and design choices will become more important as you get closer to putting your boat back into the water. A newer version of your yacht. Have great memories as you go forward.
Thank you!
A traditional, full keel boat with an enclosed keel has inherently more strength. Tradition happens over time.
After all of this I would have some serious questions to ask the manufacturer of your boat! If the boat can't be hauled and rested on its keel, there is some serious Mistakes made in the deisgn and engineering of a that as a cruising sailboat
1 Day at the time
Yes.. 🙂
Unfortunately even when repaired it is an inappropriate boat for circumnavigating. Deep draft bulb keel, unprotected spade rudder and prop are risks.
This is absolutely correct. That boat is a total loss. Their best bet is to walk away. I cannot believe they paid 280,00 Euros for it. They could have had Swan or Contest or Oyster for that kind of money.
@@bobgranafei6809Neither of you know what you are talking about. As an experienced sailor with an engineering degree and 206,000 miles, 11 transatlantics and 5 pacific crossings I much prefer fin keel and spade rudder boats. It comes down to the detail of exactly how they are built. I would NOT prefer any production boat, but there are boats such as the Schumacher designed Outbound 46 or the Paine designed offerings from Morris yachts. My own Sundeer 60 is a full spade rudder and fin keel but is as safe as houses in any grounding plus has two watertight bulkheads.
If this boat is repaired competently then it's much stronger than new
I would negotiate with the insurance company and start again, a repaired boat will never have a good resale value.
Look for a proper ocean crosser ,they are far more comfortable when you are hundreds of miles from land in a blow.
We don’t think this is possibly. Our goal is to make her stronger than before.
Buy a good old Quality Boat ! Longkeel for that what you plan !
Sell your modern Coast Cruiser…the next rock is waiting !
Viel Glück 🍀👍
Thanks for your wishes!
if it happens, the Grand Soleil sales department will replace your boat with another one!
That might not be such a blessing if they can't properly wet out a fiberglass lamination during manufacture. At this point I'd be more inclined to work with the trouble I know about than jumping onto the ride of another mystery tour. Manufactures should have to fully document the production of their boats much as the aircraft industry does with planes. I'd want to see pictures and check sheets and test results of every aspect of the hull construction and fit out.
We don't think so..😉
Hi Pat & Frankie, I'm so glad to hear this.
Personally I don't believe there was dry glass between the keel bolt on plate and hull.
That is an extremely easy part of the lamination process to do, dead flat and really in front of your eyes, no shadows no obstructions, no tricky bits to laminate.
It's easy to blame the manufacturer but seeing the internals of your yacht, it's very well built, far above the average.
The leverage from your keel in that accident was incredible, the entire weight of the boat multiplied by the leverage affect of the length of your keel which is metal against fiberglass. That same leverage bent those super strong bolts!
That is not dry glass, it's sheered glass, the force has torn it apart, delaminated by incredible sideways force. In appearance it looks like the glass is dry but in fact it's layers of shattered glass fiber.
This is easily repaired, dusty yes, as you'll need to grind out all the damaged areas but a very basic repair job.
You'll need to rip out the stringers and rebuild them, at least that's what I would do, so that you 100% know the integrity has been replaced with as good or better than new condition.
Now it's just a matter of hard dusty, sweaty, smelly and hot work to get it done. But once done you'll be so very proud and on your way to make your dreams once again come to life!
I honestly believe your yacht was and remains an exceptionally well built yacht. One look at the floor structure tells you how much thought was put into it.
Dong be too hard on yourselves, you bought well and that yacht will look after you for decades to come!
Cheers guys 🍻🍻
Thank you for your opinion and the encouraging words. Thank you for your positive words. We also believe that our yacht is of a high standard for this class. We don't want to blame anyone, but it's frightening that it's probably more often the case these days - where people work, mistakes are made and that's part of it.
Cheers!
@patandfrankie That particular area of the hull during the manufacturing /laminating process is typically resin rich and many thin laminates /passes made. Its extremely unlikely in the highest order that there was dry glass, if there was it would have been like a sponge, you would have seen water slowly dripping/leaking from the water logged dry glass which would have turned black in color by now.
Put your mind at rest, you've got a beautiful well built yacht that's experienced a tragic accident and now will be repaired. Onwards and upwards 😃😃
That whole grid / matrix is coming out. Do not try to repair that boat. Do not accept the claim. Please get your money and get something other than a Beneteau…lesson learned
Thank you for your opinion. We will definitely repair her as best as possible - that was also the result of the survey. And we would also like to inform you that it is not a Beneteau.
Not good news about the delamination in the keel area steming from poor building. Also, if the job is covered by insurance why are you working on it? Good luck
It is not yet clear if everything is covered and since it is our boat and our home, we would like to be part of the process. And there is probably no other way to learn as much as in this case. Thank you!
Did you do survey when you bought the boat ??
Yes, we have done a survey.
May God bless you both in the name of Jesus Christ Amen❤
🙌🙌🙌
More story content please. Less click bait and theatrical emotion use...
This is a decision around what insurance will cover and what you want to do personally.
Sail across the Atlantic?? I wouldent sail across a lake in this boat! What else is hidden? The build quality is obviously very poor, due to exreamly poor lamination in such a critical area as the keel plate, and this is not a blue water sail boat with the awful blade keel. Scrap it and get a long keel true blue water sailor, we are talking about a notoriously dangerous stretch of water, the Atlantic!
"How can that be"? IMHO, French production boats are junk. I would never cross an ocean on one. Sure, people do it all the time, but some don't make it.
I agree with the general thrust of your comment, but ‘Grand Soleil’ is an Italian brand.... Which is not better.
@@jefersonerbrad4461 Thanks for the clarification, but it is clear the boat is made for the light winds of the Med Sea, not for crossing oceans and the quality is clearly lacking for even that.
I told you repairing this boat does not make sense, get the money and throw it away. Even for the resell point of view in case you will repair and at the end of your journey decide to sell nobody will buy this wreck
No wonder you are in so much trouble. You both are clueless !!!
Wtf is this supposed to mean??
Don't spit without explaining it is called trolling.
@@ForTheReels It's true though. If you grew up at the edge of the ocean you'd have a much different view of the sea and of boats than the general public has. The sea is relentlessly welcoming you to your imminent death. Don't think of it as your "buddy"...still, there is a lot of recreational enjoyment to be had.
Does everybody have to be a specialist!?!
Out of experience with our C&C 41; 2 Months after the first grinders hit the boat you get your boat back. Our boat was better (more stiff) after the repair and 14 years later we still have the boat (about 11000 offshore miles)
Yes you can probably get some carbon fiber and do a repair, but what will this hull look like 5-10 years from now? Where will it delaminate next?
I don't understand why this isn't a write-off, how can you even sell it in the future?