Did Rhaegar marry Lyanna in the books??? 👀 Because I mostly approach Jon's character from the books and I don't think that Rhaegar married Lyanna in there. Also, in Fire and Blood, we learn that septons are very reluctant to annul marriages, and Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell at the time that Lyanna would've conceived Jon. So, in order to marry Lyanna, his marriage with Elia would've needed to be annulled first. Therefore, Jon was most likely born out of wedlock still.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Unless if they simply performed a Northern Marriage in front of the Weirwood Tree instead, so that their marriage would be recognized under the Old Gods as opposed to the Seven. Just a theory though.
@@brunoperez5062 I think septons would've been reluctant to officiate such a marriage, even though the Targaryens were exempt from most of the laws of Westeros. 🤔 When it came to marriages, most septons (at least throughout Fire and Blood) greatly opposed officiating any second marriages between the Targaryens (or between them and anyone else for that matter). Maegor literally had to intimidate the church to allow for it, and he is seen as an abomination for that, so I don't think that Rhaegar would've done something like that nor that a septon would've presided over it. But maybe. I guess we'll just have to keep reading in order to find out. 🤷🏾♂
@@thecriticalmaester9702 This hadn’t been confirmed in the books. But I agree with you that a lot of evidence backs up what you say. Great video as always dude!
If a bastard only stay on the sides and do not betray his brother he hardly will be remembered. Just like peasants. If he is evil and traitor, he will.
I hear you. Everybody sins and does wrong, but since there's a stigma on bastards they're wrongdoings stand out. People notice them and see them as proof of their evilness. One comment said that "it's a self fulfilling prophecy". I saw that and I agreed. They're damned no matter what they do. 🙁
Bastards are only 'bad' because they were marginalized and made desperate. Jon being raised openly by his own house as a bastard was a rarity. I'm sure there were many bastards in Dorne with less desperate outcomes.
lol this video reach Mya Stone & Gendey seemed perfectly line. Jon is more morally grey but he driven by duty to do such actions. Tommen & Mycrella seem like delightful children. Ellaria Sand actually doesn’t want more bloodshed against Lannisters in books. Joffrey was a spoiled brat raised by a psychopathic narcissistic women in Cersei. Ramsay was Ramsay some characters are just evil. Reason why bastards are hated & distrusted is probably due to succession. If you admit bastards are normal people then that opens up door for them to challenge true born heirs.
Your putting bastards and giving the worst examples,what about the robert bastards most of them are good,and also the account that mushroom fell in love with sara is the least reliable out of the three narrators also it doest fit with his character
A kid grows up and for whatever reason is raised constantly being told he is a thief. Not only that, but society treats him like one. No shops will sell him any food or clothes, no friends will lend him anything, out of fear of not getting it back. Even his parents hide their valuables from him. This kid, out of desperation or frustration or whatever, does eventually steal something. Say, a loaf of bread. Suddenly, he really is a thief. Were they right to treat him that way? Was society correct in their condemnation? No. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
There's Tommen and Myrcella. Though you do have a point, I wouldn't generalize. I personally believe that some traits of character may be shared from parent to child, but it's up to child whom to be. And society does play a great role.
Im sure there were plenty of bastards that went on to do great things. There was that one Stark bastard that was going to off Aegons 3 dragons with weirwood arrows.
Hey bro, I have a small theory about this "If you treat someone as if they are evil and when they try to act otherwise you disagree and imply that this is not their nature is it a surprise that they turn out evil?' Another thing is that their parents matter, Joffery's mother had a direct impact on the way he acted, she coddled him so much that he believed there's no consequences for his actions and his father didn't even try to discipline him in a correct way, Ramsay was mentally abused by Roose, yes both of them had done f'd up things as kids but that could be addressed by good parents, Jon Snow was raised by the paragon of honor Ned Stark and he turned out well.
The only "good" bastard in the show is Jon Snow. Then we learn that his parents officially married before he was born and he's about as much a bastard as Robb Stark. I suppose Myrcella and Tommen could count for good bastards, but legally, they were counted as legitimate, so they never got the stigma of bastardry no matter how much Stannis and Ned would've imposed it on them.
All of those characters are pretty good... on the show. But in the books, it's quite a different matter. Jon is a lot more morally gray in the books than he is ever presented to be in the show. He swaps Gilly's baby with Mance's and he is prepared to sacrifice him to Melisandre's fires. Jon even encourages his fellow brothers to join him in inciting an insurrection against the Boltons, which is an act of treason in Westeros, especially by men of the Night's Watch. Also, though Tommen is only a child and is being controlled by his mother in the books, he might grow up to be a weak-willed king. Cersei will never let him make decisions for himself, so he could grow up to be very dependent on his mother's council to rule, which is not something that medieval cultures want from their kings. Such behaviors are seen as signs of weakness. A king should be strong and should be able to make their own decisions. Tommen might grow up to not be a strong king in the way that Westeros would normally appreciate. We see this especially on the show, because on there Tommen is definitely a weak king, easily swayed by those around him. His weakness leads to the rise of a group of religious fanatics and the undermining of his House's legacy. Also, note that *being weak-willed is also a characteristic that's associated with bastardy.* We haven't gotten to know Myrcella enough to know her character that well in the books, and Gendry seems to be pretty decent so far... but he's story isn't yet complete. I mean, he is a part of a group of brigands, so who knows how he's story could end up turning out. 👀
I just try to start a conversation and ask questions about things that fascinate me about this world and story. I love it when people don't take my videos in bad taste but rather engage in them in a logical and intellectual way. Anyway, thank you for noticing and taking interest. ❤🙌🏾
Good video but not mentioning some things like Ramsey and Jofrey are probably the way they are more than anything because of how they were raised and their family. Sersey is almost as bad as Jofrey but she restrains herself more and thinks about the consequences. and the bolton family has always been evil. Besides, both Jon and Jacaerys are teenagers, saying that they are more lustful because they are bastards does not make much sense, especially when there are legitimate people like King Robert Barateon or King Aegon IV or other lords who had dozens of bastards.
Boltons aren't evil, they are just more prominent in the northern culture, is not like the glovers umbers karstarks or even starks are any better than the biltons
I don’t think Jon is truly a bastard, the old tradition of a Targaryen taking two wives will 100% come back into the story in my opinion, Rhaegar was trying to create a prophecy child and *”The Prince Who Was Promised”* he simply wouldn’t have fathered a bastard, it goes against his goals and his visions. Also, Rhaegar and Lyanna were in Dorne during their whole relationship, where they’re known to be quite understanding of weird sexual situations…no matter how I look at it, everything lines up to Rhaegar taking Lyanna for a second wife in Dorne.
Maybe. But I just don't see any septon officiating that marriage. Also, since Rhaegar was already married to Elia, I don't think that any Dornishman would participate in a ceremony in which Rhaegar was betraying a member of their royal family. The Dornish are too loyal to their own and would never do that, especially for a Targaryen. Unbowed, unbent, unbroken. 🤔
This is the type of video that will have people easily commenting, and I accepted that that is something that you might want. HOWEVER (😊) it doesn't really seem to have such a good point as most your videos. If anything your video shows that bastards are as bad and vicious as most characters in Westeros, as well as just as brave, kind or naíf. There isn't one single thing you say that puts bastards in a particular place, because of their origin of birth. Bastards are considered worst and they could've been seen as better, but they're just like the rest of the people of Westeros.
When I made the video, I wanted to see if the people of Westeros had a point about the nature of bastards. They seem to think that bastards are evil people who are treasonous, lustful and violent in nature; so I wanted to explore the validity of that superstition by exploring the behaviours of some of the bastards that we know from the story... HOWEVER (😅), someone did point out (just as you have) that bastards probably commit wrongdoings just as much as everyone else, but when they do it people will point those actions out more because of their status as bastards. The same people might not be so quick to point out something good that a bastard does in society. So I understood it in that way. Someone else pointed out to me that since bastards are treated so badly in this society, the generalizations made against them almost become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think I can get behind that, too. But then is that how it was with for Ramsay and Joffrey??? Maybe I need to make a video exploring that. 🤔
In conclusion, no westerosi's are not right cuz there's more than enough true born ppl doing the same and worse. It's most likely bastardphobia is really a thing amongst nobility because of alliances and succession coming under threat cuz of them. small folk probs don't care all that much, and the faith looks at it badly similarly to our real world religions which preach against it: issues like parenting, cheating and flouting of laws, not to mention purity culture. in fact, i don't think most people in westeros even think bastards are inherently evil, only those who have something to gain against said bastard (alicent). with joffrey and ramsey, it's clear their upbringing played the biggest part
This was thought provoking. I love that about your work. In my opinion, it 's a self fulfilling prophecy on the part of the Westerosi. If you're repeatedly traumatized as a child for something that was not your choice, it's likely you won't grow into a well adjusted adult. They live a tortured existence. You are raised by your father but made to feel like a stranger and a villain right from birth. The more psychotic the environment, the worse the treatment and hence the more psychologically damaged the bastard becomes. Treachery by bastads likely comes from this and the lack of belonging. The lordling bastards also have close proximity to power but can only exercise it away from family and against ordinary folk. Jon is accepted by these savages in a way that he wasn't by his family. It colors his perception of them. He's also young and inexperienced thus misinterpreted Aemond's advice of "killing the boy."
This whole concept is motivated by the fear that bastards are potential rivals to their legitimate heirs. It's propaganda that's indoctrinated into them to supress their individual ambitions thus keep them in check. It backfires because one can only put up with so much. They eventually blow up proportionately to the level of cruelty they've witnessed and endured.
You focus only on a handful of bastards that seem to confirm the prejudices, but there are also examples that don't, e.g. Robert's bastards: Gendry, Edric Storm and Mya Stone seem to be decent people, and Dunk who considers himself to be a bastard is a prime example of chivalry. On the other hand, Jon is not a bastard in the books and most likely neither in the books, although he is perceived as such.
With Jon - Rhaegar and Lyanna probably never got married, so Jon could still be a bastard. A Targaryen bastard, but a bastard nonetheless. And then with Robert's bastards - Gendry is literally a part of a group of brigands and outlaws, so he could be seen as a traitor of the crown, which is in keeping with his bastardy. We don't know much about Edric Storm and Mya Stone to make a judgement on them, though. 🤔
@@thecriticalmaester9702 So far we can neither confirm nor reject the hypothesis that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The TV version is a hint, but we do not know anything for sure and therefore we shouldn't list Jon as a confirmed bastard. And while Gendry is with the brotherhood, he seems to be a decent person and commits no atrocities for all we know, while e.g. Arya kills people.
But is Jon Snow truly a bastard?
Did Rhaegar marry Lyanna in the books??? 👀 Because I mostly approach Jon's character from the books and I don't think that Rhaegar married Lyanna in there.
Also, in Fire and Blood, we learn that septons are very reluctant to annul marriages, and Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell at the time that Lyanna would've conceived Jon. So, in order to marry Lyanna, his marriage with Elia would've needed to be annulled first. Therefore, Jon was most likely born out of wedlock still.
@@thecriticalmaester9702he could.just taken lyanna as a second wife
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Unless if they simply performed a Northern Marriage in front of the Weirwood Tree instead, so that their marriage would be recognized under the Old Gods as opposed to the Seven. Just a theory though.
@@brunoperez5062 I think septons would've been reluctant to officiate such a marriage, even though the Targaryens were exempt from most of the laws of Westeros. 🤔
When it came to marriages, most septons (at least throughout Fire and Blood) greatly opposed officiating any second marriages between the Targaryens (or between them and anyone else for that matter). Maegor literally had to intimidate the church to allow for it, and he is seen as an abomination for that, so I don't think that Rhaegar would've done something like that nor that a septon would've presided over it.
But maybe. I guess we'll just have to keep reading in order to find out. 🤷🏾♂
@@thecriticalmaester9702 This hadn’t been confirmed in the books. But I agree with you that a lot of evidence backs up what you say.
Great video as always dude!
If a bastard only stay on the sides and do not betray his brother he hardly will be remembered. Just like peasants. If he is evil and traitor, he will.
I hear you. Everybody sins and does wrong, but since there's a stigma on bastards they're wrongdoings stand out. People notice them and see them as proof of their evilness.
One comment said that "it's a self fulfilling prophecy". I saw that and I agreed. They're damned no matter what they do. 🙁
Bastards are only 'bad' because they were marginalized and made desperate. Jon being raised openly by his own house as a bastard was a rarity. I'm sure there were many bastards in Dorne with less desperate outcomes.
lol this video reach Mya Stone & Gendey seemed perfectly line. Jon is more morally grey but he driven by duty to do such actions. Tommen & Mycrella seem like delightful children. Ellaria Sand actually doesn’t want more bloodshed against Lannisters in books.
Joffrey was a spoiled brat raised by a psychopathic narcissistic women in Cersei. Ramsay was Ramsay some characters are just evil.
Reason why bastards are hated & distrusted is probably due to succession. If you admit bastards are normal people then that opens up door for them to challenge true born heirs.
Your putting bastards and giving the worst examples,what about the robert bastards most of them are good,and also the account that mushroom fell in love with sara is the least reliable out of the three narrators also it doest fit with his character
Yeah this video is just kind of strange
Nope; this would be blaming the children for the "sins" of their parents. It's ridiculous.
A kid grows up and for whatever reason is raised constantly being told he is a thief. Not only that, but society treats him like one. No shops will sell him any food or clothes, no friends will lend him anything, out of fear of not getting it back. Even his parents hide their valuables from him.
This kid, out of desperation or frustration or whatever, does eventually steal something. Say, a loaf of bread. Suddenly, he really is a thief. Were they right to treat him that way? Was society correct in their condemnation? No. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
There's Tommen and Myrcella. Though you do have a point, I wouldn't generalize. I personally believe that some traits of character may be shared from parent to child, but it's up to child whom to be. And society does play a great role.
Im sure there were plenty of bastards that went on to do great things. There was that one Stark bastard that was going to off Aegons 3 dragons with weirwood arrows.
There was Orys Baratheon as well. He founded an entire house and showed mercy and strategy politically and in battle.
Hey bro, I have a small theory about this "If you treat someone as if they are evil and when they try to act otherwise you disagree and imply that this is not their nature is it a surprise that they turn out evil?'
Another thing is that their parents matter, Joffery's mother had a direct impact on the way he acted, she coddled him so much that he believed there's no consequences for his actions and his father didn't even try to discipline him in a correct way, Ramsay was mentally abused by Roose, yes both of them had done f'd up things as kids but that could be addressed by good parents, Jon Snow was raised by the paragon of honor Ned Stark and he turned out well.
The only "good" bastard in the show is Jon Snow. Then we learn that his parents officially married before he was born and he's about as much a bastard as Robb Stark. I suppose Myrcella and Tommen could count for good bastards, but legally, they were counted as legitimate, so they never got the stigma of bastardry no matter how much Stannis and Ned would've imposed it on them.
Gendry is also good
All of those characters are pretty good... on the show. But in the books, it's quite a different matter. Jon is a lot more morally gray in the books than he is ever presented to be in the show. He swaps Gilly's baby with Mance's and he is prepared to sacrifice him to Melisandre's fires. Jon even encourages his fellow brothers to join him in inciting an insurrection against the Boltons, which is an act of treason in Westeros, especially by men of the Night's Watch.
Also, though Tommen is only a child and is being controlled by his mother in the books, he might grow up to be a weak-willed king. Cersei will never let him make decisions for himself, so he could grow up to be very dependent on his mother's council to rule, which is not something that medieval cultures want from their kings. Such behaviors are seen as signs of weakness. A king should be strong and should be able to make their own decisions. Tommen might grow up to not be a strong king in the way that Westeros would normally appreciate. We see this especially on the show, because on there Tommen is definitely a weak king, easily swayed by those around him. His weakness leads to the rise of a group of religious fanatics and the undermining of his House's legacy. Also, note that *being weak-willed is also a characteristic that's associated with bastardy.*
We haven't gotten to know Myrcella enough to know her character that well in the books, and Gendry seems to be pretty decent so far... but he's story isn't yet complete. I mean, he is a part of a group of brigands, so who knows how he's story could end up turning out. 👀
I always appreciate that you often ask questions most people would consider in bad taste. Always say what others are afraid say themselves.
I just try to start a conversation and ask questions about things that fascinate me about this world and story. I love it when people don't take my videos in bad taste but rather engage in them in a logical and intellectual way. Anyway, thank you for noticing and taking interest. ❤🙌🏾
not buying it, sorry
Great video as always but I cannot believe you didn't mention the sand snakes. They definitely would have been the perfect fit for this video.
I only thought about them as I was editing the video. Trust me, I was pinching myself the whole way through. 🤦♂😭
Robert's bastards, Gentry, Mia and Difficult all seem pretty chill.
You make great content bro! Keep going!
👍🏾⭕️👌🏾
Thank you, bro. Will do. Stay tuned for more 😉💯
Holy shit. Did you even read the same book as the rest of us?
Yes??? 👀😅 What do you disagree with, champ???
As a bastard myself, I say yes 😈
Good video but not mentioning some things like Ramsey and Jofrey are probably the way they are more than anything because of how they were raised and their family. Sersey is almost as bad as Jofrey but she restrains herself more and thinks about the consequences. and the bolton family has always been evil. Besides, both Jon and Jacaerys are teenagers, saying that they are more lustful because they are bastards does not make much sense, especially when there are legitimate people like King Robert Barateon or King Aegon IV or other lords who had dozens of bastards.
Boltons aren't evil, they are just more prominent in the northern culture, is not like the glovers umbers karstarks or even starks are any better than the biltons
I don’t think Jon is truly a bastard, the old tradition of a Targaryen taking two wives will 100% come back into the story in my opinion, Rhaegar was trying to create a prophecy child and *”The Prince Who Was Promised”* he simply wouldn’t have fathered a bastard, it goes against his goals and his visions.
Also, Rhaegar and Lyanna were in Dorne during their whole relationship, where they’re known to be quite understanding of weird sexual situations…no matter how I look at it, everything lines up to Rhaegar taking Lyanna for a second wife in Dorne.
Maybe. But I just don't see any septon officiating that marriage. Also, since Rhaegar was already married to Elia, I don't think that any Dornishman would participate in a ceremony in which Rhaegar was betraying a member of their royal family. The Dornish are too loyal to their own and would never do that, especially for a Targaryen. Unbowed, unbent, unbroken. 🤔
@@thecriticalmaester9702 He could always marry her in the traditions of old Valyria. Targaryens were known to do that sometimes.
Great video, what is the backround music though? it 's awessome.
Check the description. Thank you for watching 💯
This is the type of video that will have people easily commenting, and I accepted that that is something that you might want. HOWEVER (😊) it doesn't really seem to have such a good point as most your videos.
If anything your video shows that bastards are as bad and vicious as most characters in Westeros, as well as just as brave, kind or naíf. There isn't one single thing you say that puts bastards in a particular place, because of their origin of birth. Bastards are considered worst and they could've been seen as better, but they're just like the rest of the people of Westeros.
When I made the video, I wanted to see if the people of Westeros had a point about the nature of bastards. They seem to think that bastards are evil people who are treasonous, lustful and violent in nature; so I wanted to explore the validity of that superstition by exploring the behaviours of some of the bastards that we know from the story... HOWEVER (😅), someone did point out (just as you have) that bastards probably commit wrongdoings just as much as everyone else, but when they do it people will point those actions out more because of their status as bastards. The same people might not be so quick to point out something good that a bastard does in society.
So I understood it in that way. Someone else pointed out to me that since bastards are treated so badly in this society, the generalizations made against them almost become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think I can get behind that, too. But then is that how it was with for Ramsay and Joffrey??? Maybe I need to make a video exploring that. 🤔
No there you go
Clearly not, Joffrey the Gentle was a great and noble king!
Joffrey the Gentle is innocent. I might make a video on that 😅
In conclusion, no westerosi's are not right cuz there's more than enough true born ppl doing the same and worse. It's most likely bastardphobia is really a thing amongst nobility because of alliances and succession coming under threat cuz of them. small folk probs don't care all that much, and the faith looks at it badly similarly to our real world religions which preach against it: issues like parenting, cheating and flouting of laws, not to mention purity culture. in fact, i don't think most people in westeros even think bastards are inherently evil, only those who have something to gain against said bastard (alicent). with joffrey and ramsey, it's clear their upbringing played the biggest part
Jacaerys wasn't married to Baela in the books. They were just engaged like in the show.
Imagine the situation of night king if Ramsay was the three eyed raven😂
This was thought provoking. I love that about your work. In my opinion, it 's a self fulfilling prophecy on the part of the Westerosi. If you're repeatedly traumatized as a child for something that was not your choice, it's likely you won't grow into a well adjusted adult. They live a tortured existence. You are raised by your father but made to feel like a stranger and a villain right from birth. The more psychotic the environment, the worse the treatment and hence the more psychologically damaged the bastard becomes. Treachery by bastads likely comes from this and the lack of belonging. The lordling bastards also have close proximity to power but can only exercise it away from family and against ordinary folk. Jon is accepted by these savages in a way that he wasn't by his family. It colors his perception of them. He's also young and inexperienced thus misinterpreted Aemond's advice of "killing the boy."
This whole concept is motivated by the fear that bastards are potential rivals to their legitimate heirs. It's propaganda that's indoctrinated into them to supress their individual ambitions thus keep them in check. It backfires because one can only put up with so much. They eventually blow up proportionately to the level of cruelty they've witnessed and endured.
You focus only on a handful of bastards that seem to confirm the prejudices, but there are also examples that don't, e.g. Robert's bastards: Gendry, Edric Storm and Mya Stone seem to be decent people, and Dunk who considers himself to be a bastard is a prime example of chivalry. On the other hand, Jon is not a bastard in the books and most likely neither in the books, although he is perceived as such.
With Jon - Rhaegar and Lyanna probably never got married, so Jon could still be a bastard. A Targaryen bastard, but a bastard nonetheless.
And then with Robert's bastards - Gendry is literally a part of a group of brigands and outlaws, so he could be seen as a traitor of the crown, which is in keeping with his bastardy. We don't know much about Edric Storm and Mya Stone to make a judgement on them, though. 🤔
@@thecriticalmaester9702 So far we can neither confirm nor reject the hypothesis that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The TV version is a hint, but we do not know anything for sure and therefore we shouldn't list Jon as a confirmed bastard.
And while Gendry is with the brotherhood, he seems to be a decent person and commits no atrocities for all we know, while e.g. Arya kills people.