What I don't understand is that in HOTD they had black characters like nettles they could choose from, but decided to not use them, but race swap other characters.
I still don't understand the decision to cut an original black character that is so integral to the storyline like Nettles is, but idk... let's see how the season unfolds. Maybe they'll include her in the third season and find a way to fit her into the story line, like they're doing with Daeron. 🤷🏾♂
What?!?!?? They cut out Nettles?!?! That makes no sense. They are so desperate from black characters that they swap silver haired white character into black characters and cut out the actual black characters? Make it make sense!?!?!?!?
I heard it was to help identify characters more easily…having 15+ white poeple with white hair floating on and off the screen could easily get confusing, especially when they have groups of characters that sound like they have the same name. Breaking them up into dark brown, light, brown, and beige makes it easier on the casual viewer.
@@didyallseethat499 that's the excuse they used, but it's definitely not the real reason. No one had an issue recognizing who was who in the original show. Your characters should be good enough and distinct enough that the audience can tell them apart. That's honestly just insulting the viewers' intelligence
They introduced black velaryons to erase the targaryens’ taste for racism and valyrian superiority, and erased characters like nettles because they show precisely that part of them. Can’t have the all powerful queen rhaenyra calling a black girl ‘a common creature’ and other insults and make her seem likable for a modern audience at the same time.
The Velaryons being black just makes everyone look like idiots for going along with the lie of Rhaenyra's kids parentage. The hair being the tipoff worked for Game of Thrones; it would've worked here, too, as a subtle clue. Speaking of hair, the Velaryons' hair just looks goofy imo. Easily the fakest looking hair in the live-action franchise. Bad enough to make a Tyroshi do a spit take.
Lol. Yeah, the wig department is not doing a good job on the black character's wigs. They don't look good. And I agree with your former argument too. Everyone looks dumb going along with Rhaenyra's lie, most of all Corlys Velaryon. Part of the reason, I suspect, that he's book-counterpart was so cool going along with everything was because of the fact that there was at least some plausible deniability in the books. But on the show... bro looks like an idiot. 🤦🏾♂🤦🏾♂🤦🏾♂
I appreciate you bringing up this topic-it's something I've been eager to see being addressed in your videos…It's disheartening to see the show removing or killing off black characters in games of thrones. Even though HOtD tried to address the diversity issue, it felt like it’s being treated as a checkbox rather than being authentic to the story. Do they truly believe the show wouldn't be as good with the original black characters included? Looking forward to more discussions. Love your work💖🔥🔥
Thank you for watching the videos and I'm glad that you enjoy them. 😭🧡🧡 Yes, I agree with you, I like the fact that HotD tried to at least address the diversity issue, but I still think that they might've gone about it the wrong way. 🤔 Cutting out original black characters was not a good move. Race-swapping characters is not the move either (in my opinion) because they could've invented original black characters with more prominent roles in the story. It would've worked. But I don't know... maybe they didn't believe that it would. 🤦🏾♂️😤😤
@@SinazoNdzamela the reality is, there is no ‘diversity issue’ in the book series or game of thrones. There’s a diversity issue in House of the Dragon.
Honestly, a part of what makes this world George has created feel so real, is how realistic even things like this are, the races tend to be regional just like in real life. This is what all these modern adaptations of fantasies tend to get wrong nowadays, they just have everyone everywhere on mass and it really hurts the world building…like Rings Of Power, or the Witcher on Netflix, there’s no thought put into it and you can tell it’s done for the purposes of ticking a box, and only for that purpose.
Totally agree. And George was so intentional and meticulous with all his worldbuilding, so much so that there's a major ripple effect when even the littlest things are changed. I mean, look how many questions the race of the Velaryons now raises. How will Daeron I and Baelor the Blessed look in the tv show??? Are Aegon and his sisters also gonna be black? If the Velaryons weren't _ALWAYS_ black, then when did they _BECOME_ black??? Why is Corlys so okay with Rhaenyra siring bastards instead of having children with his son and heir, Laenor??? 😤🤦🏾♂️
@@monie3558 name more than 5 black characters in westeros then.... I'll wait. I'll give you a head start..... The two prostitutes in kings landing and the exiled Prince. Who else is there? Or are you one of those people that try and say dornish people are black?
I really missed Brown Ben Plumm in the show, although he's mixed more than anything. A fun character and his affinity with Dragons was very interesting.
@@TraditionalCrusaderOldtown was founded as a trading port for valyria, the summer isles and the first men, so a black population in oldtown makes very much sense.
Summer Islanders living in Oldtown does make sense to the story. Oldtown is a trading port, so there would be some black people in that region. 💯 The Velaryons, though... 🤔
@@Tgsva352 what I’m thinking is that every house will be diverse from here on out. In the books the only character of Westerosi origin that is black is nettles.
The craziest thing to me is that Grrm has always been a woke and progressive guy. It makes no sense that HBO treats his books like they were written 200 years ago and need to be made politically correct for our times.
I think they wanted to have diversity like American diversity... where they could have people who look different, but all have the same culture. They are scared of showing different cultures.
@@somegirl2537 I think diversity is very important to include in historical fiction. But it should be historically authentic diversity. Obviously Rome and medieval England were not 20th century America. But they did have their own sort of diversity. It's important to show that in an accurate way not to shoe horn in modern demographics.
@@KohanKilletzI agree. It’s a very good point you make. I just hadn’t considered it before you pointed it out. Instead of possibly pissing off a certain portion of the audience with their attempt at portraying the fictional culture of a “minority” ethnic group of people, they may have just felt it safer to race swap a white family. It is unfortunate that they did that. In today’s social climate, I guess I understand their reluctance/fear. At the end of the day, they want people to watch the show and not possibly boycott it. Easier to just stick with the popular, overly politically correct world view.
@@KohanKilletzWell the black characters from the main series that were cut, sound horrible. Nettles being cut hasn't been confirmed by anyone official. Also all 3 of the people in Kings Landing would've been taken as racist. Two black females who are prostitutes. That sounds horrible & I guarantee there would've been a backlash to that. Pretty much all the black people they had on the show were slaves & that was criticized.
@@keitht24 I can see that from your perspective. I'm guessing that George did not intend it to be stereotypical or negative because he personally has a great deal of admiration for the sex trade, assuming that the women are treated fairly. I'm also surmising that Alayaya is very likely inspired by the real life, historical figure, black bess from 16th and 17th century England. She was a famous courtisan who was desired by most of London, including William Shakespeare. I feel like it's difficult for white authors to win with portrayals of black characters... to not include them is considered a sin, including the wrong way, is a sin. Personally I find the show more objectionable than the books. People also overlook how Middle Eastern characters are portrayed in such media... in Game of Thrones, Middle Eastern actors were primarily portrayed as antagonists, slavers and pirates. Sympathetic characters from essos are typically portrayed by black or mixed race actors.
I knew Nettles would get shafted years ago before season 1 dropped when they cast the Valeryons, look i get it, the Valyrons look cool as shit with the white hair and all that but it's not enough. Id much rather they kept the Valeryons accurate to the books and then EXPANDED heavily on Nettles as an authentic black character than have 7 throwaway characters that are aesthetically black but are coded culturally white. How cool would it have been to have a side story seen only from nettles perspective? But I guess quantity is more important than quality when it comes to representation. They raceswap Corly's and somehow we still get stuck with the deadbeat dad trope LOL
@@thecriticalmaester9702 maybe HBO will beg for more episodes making the show runners go into Aegon lll reign. Maybe they'll tease by showing Viserys ll surviving the battle of the gullet?
I think it’s funny how black characters written by white authors are almost always described as being as black as possible without any differing shades of black people considered lol. But when it comes to the modern velaryons in hotd specifically they can easily say that down the line after aegon the first they married a noble house from the summer isles since this is more than a century later. Also corlys and vaemond are the only full black characters the rest are literally biracial
Westeros and the western part of Essos is based on Medieval European fantasy, George RR Martin havde stated that several times. And there were no or very few coloured people there during that time. That is why there were backlash when the Velaryons were casted as black instead of having resemblance to the Targaryens but with purple eyes. And remember Game of Thrones is the biggest tv show ever even without diversity casting.
Daemon and Laenas daughter is named Rhaena Targaryen not Rhaela Valaryon. Funny how people keep forgetting Rhaena and Baela are Targaryens even tho they know Daemon is their father I wonder why?, 🫡 smh
I think it's because they look NOTHING like him but very much like their mom and the Valaryon side of the family. Why not give at least one of them straighter hair like dad? That might have helped cause even I forget.
My biggest complaint is if all members of House Velaryon are Black, then shouldn't all Targaryen descendants appear black as well? Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys had a Velaryon mother (Valaena) and the entire house from then on is descended from half Targaryen, half Velaryons.
As a show fan 1st I didn’t feel a way about he lack of diversity because I’ve come to expect it & it was a medieval fantasy based on European monarchies. I didn’t like how the people of color were portrayed like Dothraki & the people of Yunkai but liked Xaro from Quarth & Messandei & Grey worm. But once I read the books waiting for season 8 I was shocked that more black charters existed & were cut and/or race swapped. When I 1st heard the Velaryons would be black I was sad cause I know what happens to them. & then it kinda messed up book descriptions. But the racism hate that Steve got personally was ridiculous & uncalled for he didn’t write it or cast himself. I hate that Nettles was cut I was really looking forward to seeing her & a softer side of Daemon. But the show is tryna make Rhaenyra a saint like you said in the whitewash video. So now I just look at the show as fan fiction of the dance 🤷🏾♀️😂
Most of these black characters are not very important and based upon several long held black stereotypes such as the Harlot/Jezebel; the exotic other or the black man who gets SA by a dominant male white male figure. I’m happy the black characters in HOTD are prominent within the world and story and are not based upon racial caricatures. Martin in generally writes poc coded characters in a hyper sexual and exoticized manner I’m glad HOTD is not doing that. I like Needles but she’s not too important in the overall world of ASOIAF. Giving her story to a Targaryen princess who is apart of the dynasty at war is a better idea and will make Rhaena a better character who impacts the story.
this is bullshit and the laziest way to do diversity, to make them "white coded" instead? as if black people weren't exotic and different especially in the time period ASOIAF is inspired by
One thing that I constantly point out is that Daemon Veleryon's branch of the family is never explicitly described by George. Yes, they've been depicted in artwork, but it's extremely plausible, if not definite that House Veleryon had traditional Valyrian features, as described in the books. This is up until Deamon Veleryon married a dark skinned woman, let's say from the Summer Isles for the sake of arguing, and then his mixed race son Corwyn Veleryon did the same thing and also book a wife from the Summer Isles. This then explains how Aegon I and Jaeheries I both have Veleryon mothers, yet appear to be white.
That wouldn’t happen though. A great amount of access and status was granted to house Velerion because they were desirable mates for breeding with the Targ royal family. Why? Because they had maintained the features/physiology of old Valyria through careful breeding. Incest was preferable to diluting the blood. So the summer islander thing, maybe a 4th son of little significance, but the heir to driftmark, much less 2 heirs in a row? No no.
@@krystalccameron7689 - Well it clearly did happen. There's literally no other explanation. We don't know how much HBO has tweaked small things (Vaemond being Corly's brother). So perhaps Deamon Veleryron wasn't the oldest brother after all. Or, perhaps he was but didn't care and married a woman from Summer Isles nobility anyway,. Alyssa Veleryon (who we 1000% know is light-skinned) had already married into the Targaryens and was the matriarch of the royal family. We know she had younger brothers and uncles, so there are ample members of House Veleryon with traditional Valyrian features for the royal family to marry into, should they need to. There's no reason the most senior member of the house (presuming that's what Daemon Veleryon was) wouldn't be able to marry who he pleases. As the head of Driftmark, there are numerous reasons why a marriage alliance with the Summer Isles would be beneficial.
@@lucaschapel7197 it clearly didn’t happen. Occam’s razor. The show is an adaptation, the book is canon. Yes, the book isn’t definitive about events, but the descriptions of people are well established. House Velerion is white, not black. 2 heirs in a row and we don’t know what they’ve derived from the arrangement with summer islands. No no.
@@krystalccameron7689 - I'd say Occa's razor dictates that the Summer Isles is literally the only option. What's the alternative? There isn't another option. Deamon and Corwyn Veleryon must have married noble women from the Sumer Isles. There's plentiful references to trees on the isles, which a small fraction of would have been used towards to Veleryon fleet; plus all the potential trade connections. Having a port to land in there would be ideal before sailing further into Essos. Whilst it's rare, heads of important houses to marry into unexpected houses, even house Targaryen do this from time to time. Bealor Breakspear, the air to THE IRON THRONE married into house Dondarrion, with literally no Valyrian blood at all.
@@lucaschapel7197 Baelor brought Dorne into the realm and finished Aegon’s conquest. Can you tell me what driftmark has gained from the summer isles? Occam’s razor says the show runners have changed details during adaptation so the book is the book and the show is the show. As far as canon goes, Corlis is white with silver hair and purple eyes.
This is a much better explanation than "The race swap would create continuity issues." If they earnestly wanted proper diversity, they could've recycled or expended already known black characters. I have yet to see many shows or movies to date where expanding on characters was a bad idea as long as their written in a way that makes sense and add to the existing story.
Race of characters has recently become a huge issue, but you gotta understand that ASOIAF was written by a white guy, so of course a majority of the characters are gonna be white lol what it crazy is Hollywood will just race swap a character instead of making or adapting a series that has black characters
That was essentially my point in the video - that there are original black characters in this story, but for some reason they are constantly either removed from the story entirely, or they are race-swapped into white characters. So since the showrunners and writers are so adamant to introduce diversity into the story, where are those original black characters from the books???
I think the issue is they look at black characters like Nettles and say 'not central enough. We need black main characters.' For the same reason, this is probably why gay characters were removed, so Rhaenyra could be portrayed as bi instead. Its very cynical.
I knew Nettles would get shafted years ago before season 1 dropped when they cast the Valeryons, look i get it, the Valyrons look cool as shit with the white hair and all that but it's not enough. Id much rather they kept the Valeryons accurate to the books and then EXPANDED heavily on Nettles as an authentic black character than have 7 throwaway characters that are aesthetically black but are coded culturally white. How cool would it have been to have a side story seen only from nettles perspective? But I guess quantity is more important than quality when it comes to representation. They raceswap Corly's and somehow we still get stuck with the deadbeat dad trope LOL
So u meant say an Intelligent character irrespective of her skin tone who could prove that she can overcome the so called inheritance based Dragon Bond was cut to make a character in her place who deserves the dragon coz "mah birth right victimhood".
It's a shame House of the Dragon seems to have cut Nettles out, considering she's such a fan favorite from the book. But yeah, for their talk of diversity, it is pretty ironic how they cut or changed the black characters who were already established.
Being that Valyria is located in Essos where melanated people are, “black” Targaryens would exist…..they just wouldn’t look like Corlys……they would look like Laenor(the way they look in the show)….if the Dragon Magic made the ancient Valyrians’ skin so pale its white, hair so pale its silver and eyes from normal to purple…..then the Velaryons on the show should have the same features as the rest of the Valyrians….im sure there are light skinned black actors that could’ve played the roles….so that at least this shit could make sense.
The black people were more likely from Summer Isles. The white people of Westeros originally came from west Essos so why would that be any different for Targaryens. You’re looking at the GOT world like it’s our modern day world.
Can't forget Salladhor Saan, whom was in GoT, but his role was significant diminished and was completely forgotten about after Stannis & his family were all dead (the show as a whole got over Stannis very quickly).
Yeah, he is a great character too in the books. I wanted to include him in this list, but I felt like the list would've been convoluted or too long. I was a sweet summer child then lol. I should've included him... but maybe I'll make a seperate video on him. 🤔
I really enjoy your videos But can you state if you're going to spoil cuz Cregan stark's video really slapped me with the big spoiler Thank you very much for you effort
Moqorro was not important to the story of the show because Victarion is not there. The "White woman" who replaced him was also not an important character.
This dude really just made a video suggesting having black female characters as prostitutes were good characters. He can't be serious? I'm glad those characters weren't included. With Missandei, you'd have 3 black female characters. One a slave & two prostitutes. The Red Priest sounds interesting. But I think those characters were cut, because George didn't really make good black characters.
House of the Dragon should've gone All in and made Jaehaerys dark complected. Because his mother, great grandmother and great great grandfather were all Velaryon.
I haven't read the books but the concept of dragon seeds is so interesting and I feel so robbed that we didn't get Nettles. Honestly the changes in GOT were definitely racism, but with HOD, I think the budget and amount of episodes have led to them cutting out a lot of significant side stories in order to simplify the plot.
I honestly dont have too much of an issue making house velaryon black- except that they are so intermarried with the Targaryens that both houses should have similar coloring. The conquerors' mother was half velaryon. Also- it frustrates me that they are choosing to condense nettles into rhaena when if they HAD to cut the cast down and saw her as "not important enough" they could have fused her with the dragon riding Hull twin- making her MORE important and impactful, not less.
Given that EVERY single commercial on television is filled with black representation now, and how diversity is fetishized and put on a pedestal, I don’t mind a fantasy based on medieval Europe reflecting the homogeneous European demographics of the time.
my personal pet peeve was making the valyrians and melisandre white. like ik they're pale, but pale skinned POC ethnic groups do exist, and them looking foreign would've made the targaryens' conqueror status seem richer imo
Quhuro and Kojja Mo and Xhondu Dhoru aboard the Cinnamon Wind are some of my favorite tertiary characters in the series. Shame you didn't mention them in this video.
I understand the need to condense storyline but as people have said Nettles is a key character. Her absence will affect other key characters’ storylines. In terms of ‘race swapping’ characters, broadening the quantity of actors eligible to be cast is perfectly fine. Adapting a character from novel to film should involve questions like: does this character need to be female/male? white/black/asian? Young/old/middle aged? If those traits are unchangeable for the character to remain recognisable that should be respected. If a little change here or there does nothing to affect the character’s plotline no big deal.
Yeah but its an long term industry issue to cut OG POC characters and replace them with race-swapped characters (rhaena for example isnt even black she a 1/4 black). Especially when Nettles is such more important than Rhaena & Baela or other dragonseed. Her story is irreplaceable.
They’re all about diversity and representation in HOTD which is why they race swapped the Velayrons even if it barely made any sense. Yet they exclude a canonically black character Nettles because they don’t want to show just how bad and sick Daemon is. The fans all think Rhae and Daemon are a real true love, when in reality they were super super toxic. He no doubt groomed from a young age as she grew up with a hero worship of him. His love for Laena was completely downplayed. The fans were so shocked he choked Rhaenyra. What did you expect?! He’s reckless and violent a horrible influence on Rhaenyra and the Greens were even more motivated to rebel because they feared Daemon whispering in her ear. At least if Aegon ruled he’d be fine being a figurehead whilst competent and experienced leaders like Otto and Alicent ruled for him. Daemon would turn the realm into a bloodbath. It was even written in the books, those negative qualities like that he’d totally burn the realm down so he could be king of the ashes. He was interested in the looks and innocence of young girls. Rhaenyra’s too old for him now. They just don’t want to show just how evil Daemon can be and his affair with Nettles because part of the appeal of the Blacks is they have the “epic love story” trope which makes them entertaining. Showing him bedding Nettles and Mysaria whilst being married to Rhaenyra will ruin that for fans.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Yea they kinda wrote themselves in a corner there . But having black in you doesn’t necessarily make one black . As far the show I don’t think real world genetics matters. For example Baela and Rhaena would be technically a quarter black and they would not look that black like in the show with daemon as the father . But as far as Aegon ,. They can just say that his mother was half black so that why aegon looks full white. Velaryons must have bred with other houses over time ,their not Targaryen’s .
It makes sense, but has the show confirmed that??? I think Condal made the Velaryon's black saying that their ancestors were always black and that they were a part of the Freehold. If that's the case then it would mean many Targaryen characters are supposed to be black. But the show hasn't confirmed this yet. If Corlys' father did marry a Summer Islander then it would make better sense, though.🤔 But excluded Nettles is crazy. I don't understand that decision at all. She's too important to the story...and she's an original, black, female character that's already beloved by book fans. Why change that??? 😒
@@thecriticalmaester9702 no thats just what ive been going with in my head especially with the fact that corlys would look even lighter than laenor if the black ancestor was that far back after all the marriages with the targaryens also we dont know nettles is cut yet she may show up in season 2 we see a black girl in raggedy clothes that may be her or she may show up in season 3 because it takes longer for her to tame sheepstealer i also have a whole theory that she never existed that i might make a video on
You are just throwing out technicalities, there's a HUGE difference between the very few black side characters we get in the books (c-d characters in almost every case) The black character in comparison to the white character of the books of very miniscule with no storylines that don't revolve around aiding a white person. No not siding. But literally being a side character to their storyline. Having the Valaryeons as a prominent sea faring house AND black does a lot for this world.
George was a big fan of Tolkien and yes in all six film peter Jackson excluded the black people I don't know why the stories between to to creators are similar to each other and I like both of the franchises I was just making a point nothing more nothing less you didn't have to insulte me or humiliate me over a remark in the original Star Wars movie there wasn't one single black person and it either peace!
@@MellowFellow.247 No no no, I wasn't insulting you. I was genuinely asking. I actually haven't read Lord of the Rings yet, so I really didn't know. But if they did exclude black characters then that's messed up. That's my point in this video. There are black people that are already in these stories, so why do the writers adapting the source material exlcude them? 🤔 I don't understand. If they're all about diversity and inclusion, then why don't they just keep them in the story.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 if not first episode they’re definitely adding her later on because they’re gonna be doing the new dragon riders pretty early, but aye that’s jus my opinion cuz nun of us know
Oh ffs. Where’s the Chinese people? The Polish? The Inuit? The Aboriginals? The Suomi? The South Pacific Islanders? Why is it always the professional victims that get this??
Yi Ti (china) exist in this world. but just like history, Asian people very rarely visited England in those days just like Westeros. Hence why there are so few Asian people. I also get what you’re saying, but I had a feeling Dorn was a mixture of Muslim and Hispanic culture. Meaning there aren’t many Hispanic representation and I am Hispanic myself. But you don’t hear me bitching about it. I acknowledge the show is a reflection of englands history which is mostly white. So I see no reason to complain
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What I don't understand is that in HOTD they had black characters like nettles they could choose from, but decided to not use them, but race swap other characters.
I still don't understand the decision to cut an original black character that is so integral to the storyline like Nettles is, but idk... let's see how the season unfolds. Maybe they'll include her in the third season and find a way to fit her into the story line, like they're doing with Daeron. 🤷🏾♂
What?!?!?? They cut out Nettles?!?!
That makes no sense. They are so desperate from black characters that they swap silver haired white character into black characters and cut out the actual black characters?
Make it make sense!?!?!?!?
I heard it was to help identify characters more easily…having 15+ white poeple with white hair floating on and off the screen could easily get confusing, especially when they have groups of characters that sound like they have the same name. Breaking them up into dark brown, light, brown, and beige makes it easier on the casual viewer.
@@didyallseethat499 that's the excuse they used, but it's definitely not the real reason. No one had an issue recognizing who was who in the original show. Your characters should be good enough and distinct enough that the audience can tell them apart. That's honestly just insulting the viewers' intelligence
They introduced black velaryons to erase the targaryens’ taste for racism and valyrian superiority, and erased characters like nettles because they show precisely that part of them. Can’t have the all powerful queen rhaenyra calling a black girl ‘a common creature’ and other insults and make her seem likable for a modern audience at the same time.
The Velaryons being black just makes everyone look like idiots for going along with the lie of Rhaenyra's kids parentage. The hair being the tipoff worked for Game of Thrones; it would've worked here, too, as a subtle clue.
Speaking of hair, the Velaryons' hair just looks goofy imo. Easily the fakest looking hair in the live-action franchise. Bad enough to make a Tyroshi do a spit take.
Lol. Yeah, the wig department is not doing a good job on the black character's wigs. They don't look good. And I agree with your former argument too. Everyone looks dumb going along with Rhaenyra's lie, most of all Corlys Velaryon. Part of the reason, I suspect, that he's book-counterpart was so cool going along with everything was because of the fact that there was at least some plausible deniability in the books. But on the show... bro looks like an idiot. 🤦🏾♂🤦🏾♂🤦🏾♂
GRRM: “Here have some Black characters from my original work to cast” Larry Fink and BlackRock telling HBO what to do: “It’s about the message…”
Fink huh? Sounds like a smol hat
I appreciate you bringing up this topic-it's something I've been eager to see being addressed in your videos…It's disheartening to see the show removing or killing off black characters in games of thrones. Even though HOtD tried to address the diversity issue, it felt like it’s being treated as a checkbox rather than being authentic to the story. Do they truly believe the show wouldn't be as good with the original black characters included? Looking forward to more discussions. Love your work💖🔥🔥
Thank you for watching the videos and I'm glad that you enjoy them. 😭🧡🧡
Yes, I agree with you, I like the fact that HotD tried to at least address the diversity issue, but I still think that they might've gone about it the wrong way. 🤔 Cutting out original black characters was not a good move. Race-swapping characters is not the move either (in my opinion) because they could've invented original black characters with more prominent roles in the story. It would've worked. But I don't know... maybe they didn't believe that it would. 🤦🏾♂️😤😤
“Diversity issues” yeah cause we can have a fantasy based entirely on medieval Europe but can’t have too many white people. What a joke.
@@SinazoNdzamela the reality is, there is no ‘diversity issue’ in the book series or game of thrones. There’s a diversity issue in House of the Dragon.
Kinda ironic how the show got rid of Nettles but added black Velaryons
Honestly, a part of what makes this world George has created feel so real, is how realistic even things like this are, the races tend to be regional just like in real life.
This is what all these modern adaptations of fantasies tend to get wrong nowadays, they just have everyone everywhere on mass and it really hurts the world building…like Rings Of Power, or the Witcher on Netflix, there’s no thought put into it and you can tell it’s done for the purposes of ticking a box, and only for that purpose.
Totally agree. And George was so intentional and meticulous with all his worldbuilding, so much so that there's a major ripple effect when even the littlest things are changed. I mean, look how many questions the race of the Velaryons now raises. How will Daeron I and Baelor the Blessed look in the tv show??? Are Aegon and his sisters also gonna be black? If the Velaryons weren't _ALWAYS_ black, then when did they _BECOME_ black??? Why is Corlys so okay with Rhaenyra siring bastards instead of having children with his son and heir, Laenor??? 😤🤦🏾♂️
Except there’s black people in Westeros in the book…… sounds like your incorrectly saying there’s not.
@@monie3558there are like 5 black people in a country of millions. You sound dense.
@@jaycee2070 no there’s not 😂😂
@@monie3558 name more than 5 black characters in westeros then.... I'll wait.
I'll give you a head start..... The two prostitutes in kings landing and the exiled Prince. Who else is there? Or are you one of those people that try and say dornish people are black?
I really missed Brown Ben Plumm in the show, although he's mixed more than anything.
A fun character and his affinity with Dragons was very interesting.
Their being black people in house of the dragon but none in Westeros in Game of Thrones makes it seem like they were all killed off.
Not really, House Velaryon is no longer relevant in the main story.
@@glensaldivar3169 In the house of the dragon trailer I noticed black people in the Hightower army and the black maester too.
@@TraditionalCrusaderOldtown was founded as a trading port for valyria, the summer isles and the first men, so a black population in oldtown makes very much sense.
Summer Islanders living in Oldtown does make sense to the story. Oldtown is a trading port, so there would be some black people in that region. 💯 The Velaryons, though... 🤔
@@Tgsva352 what I’m thinking is that every house will be diverse from here on out. In the books the only character of Westerosi origin that is black is nettles.
The craziest thing to me is that Grrm has always been a woke and progressive guy. It makes no sense that HBO treats his books like they were written 200 years ago and need to be made politically correct for our times.
yeah he's woke, is his writing, tho? lot of grape
I think they wanted to have diversity like American diversity... where they could have people who look different, but all have the same culture. They are scared of showing different cultures.
Interesting point.
@@somegirl2537 I think diversity is very important to include in historical fiction. But it should be historically authentic diversity. Obviously Rome and medieval England were not 20th century America. But they did have their own sort of diversity. It's important to show that in an accurate way not to shoe horn in modern demographics.
@@KohanKilletzI agree. It’s a very good point you make. I just hadn’t considered it before you pointed it out. Instead of possibly pissing off a certain portion of the audience with their attempt at portraying the fictional culture of a “minority” ethnic group of people, they may have just felt it safer to race swap a white family. It is unfortunate that they did that. In today’s social climate, I guess I understand their reluctance/fear. At the end of the day, they want people to watch the show and not possibly boycott it. Easier to just stick with the popular, overly politically correct world view.
@@KohanKilletzWell the black characters from the main series that were cut, sound horrible. Nettles being cut hasn't been confirmed by anyone official. Also all 3 of the people in Kings Landing would've been taken as racist. Two black females who are prostitutes. That sounds horrible & I guarantee there would've been a backlash to that. Pretty much all the black people they had on the show were slaves & that was criticized.
@@keitht24
I can see that from your perspective. I'm guessing that George did not intend it to be stereotypical or negative because he personally has a great deal of admiration for the sex trade, assuming that the women are treated fairly. I'm also surmising that Alayaya is very likely inspired by the real life, historical figure, black bess from 16th and 17th century England. She was a famous courtisan who was desired by most of London, including William Shakespeare. I feel like it's difficult for white authors to win with portrayals of black characters... to not include them is considered a sin, including the wrong way, is a sin. Personally I find the show more objectionable than the books. People also overlook how Middle Eastern characters are portrayed in such media... in Game of Thrones, Middle Eastern actors were primarily portrayed as antagonists, slavers and pirates.
Sympathetic characters from essos are typically portrayed by black or mixed race actors.
I knew Nettles would get shafted years ago before season 1 dropped when they cast the Valeryons, look i get it, the Valyrons look cool as shit with the white hair and all that but it's not enough. Id much rather they kept the Valeryons accurate to the books and then EXPANDED heavily on Nettles as an authentic black character than have 7 throwaway characters that are aesthetically black but are coded culturally white. How cool would it have been to have a side story seen only from nettles perspective? But I guess quantity is more important than quality when it comes to representation. They raceswap Corly's and somehow we still get stuck with the deadbeat dad trope LOL
Shandoq the shadow is my favorite black character in all the books.
He does seem like a badass in the book. I hope they adapt him 🙌🏾💯
@@thecriticalmaester9702 maybe HBO will beg for more episodes making the show runners go into Aegon lll reign. Maybe they'll tease by showing Viserys ll surviving the battle of the gullet?
Great video once again❤❤❤!! The question stands, WHERE ARE THEY?
Good question! Where ARE THEY indeed. 🤔
I guess we gonna have to wait for Season 2 to find out if this finally gets addressed properly... Crossing fingers🤞❤
@@zanelendzamela596 🤞😭
woow lmao the current showrunners are doing the exact same thing the previous showrunners were doing
This is great. Thanks for posting
Glad you enjoyed it! Subscribe for more 🧡💯
I think it’s funny how black characters written by white authors are almost always described as being as black as possible without any differing shades of black people considered lol. But when it comes to the modern velaryons in hotd specifically they can easily say that down the line after aegon the first they married a noble house from the summer isles since this is more than a century later. Also corlys and vaemond are the only full black characters the rest are literally biracial
Making them black was stupid.
Westeros and the western part of Essos is based on Medieval European fantasy, George RR Martin havde stated that several times. And there were no or very few coloured people there during that time. That is why there were backlash when the Velaryons were casted as black instead of having resemblance to the Targaryens but with purple eyes. And remember Game of Thrones is the biggest tv show ever even without diversity casting.
Daemon and Laenas daughter is named Rhaena Targaryen not Rhaela Valaryon. Funny how people keep forgetting Rhaena and Baela are Targaryens even tho they know Daemon is their father I wonder why?, 🫡 smh
I think it's because they look NOTHING like him but very much like their mom and the Valaryon side of the family. Why not give at least one of them straighter hair like dad? That might have helped cause even I forget.
My biggest complaint is if all members of House Velaryon are Black, then shouldn't all Targaryen descendants appear black as well? Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys had a Velaryon mother (Valaena) and the entire house from then on is descended from half Targaryen, half Velaryons.
As a show fan 1st I didn’t feel a way about he lack of diversity because I’ve come to expect it & it was a medieval fantasy based on European monarchies. I didn’t like how the people of color were portrayed like Dothraki & the people of Yunkai but liked Xaro from Quarth & Messandei & Grey worm. But once I read the books waiting for season 8 I was shocked that more black charters existed & were cut and/or race swapped. When I 1st heard the Velaryons would be black I was sad cause I know what happens to them. & then it kinda messed up book descriptions. But the racism hate that Steve got personally was ridiculous & uncalled for he didn’t write it or cast himself. I hate that Nettles was cut I was really looking forward to seeing her & a softer side of Daemon. But the show is tryna make Rhaenyra a saint like you said in the whitewash video. So now I just look at the show as fan fiction of the dance 🤷🏾♀️😂
A white actor replaced Strong Belwas scene in the book where he fights Meereen’s champion
Most of these black characters are not very important and based upon several long held black stereotypes such as the Harlot/Jezebel; the exotic other or the black man who gets SA by a dominant male white male figure. I’m happy the black characters in HOTD are prominent within the world and story and are not based upon racial caricatures. Martin in generally writes poc coded characters in a hyper sexual and exoticized manner I’m glad HOTD is not doing that. I like Needles but she’s not too important in the overall world of ASOIAF. Giving her story to a Targaryen princess who is apart of the dynasty at war is a better idea and will make Rhaena a better character who impacts the story.
this is bullshit and the laziest way to do diversity, to make them "white coded" instead? as if black people weren't exotic and different especially in the time period ASOIAF is inspired by
One thing that I constantly point out is that Daemon Veleryon's branch of the family is never explicitly described by George. Yes, they've been depicted in artwork, but it's extremely plausible, if not definite that House Veleryon had traditional Valyrian features, as described in the books. This is up until Deamon Veleryon married a dark skinned woman, let's say from the Summer Isles for the sake of arguing, and then his mixed race son Corwyn Veleryon did the same thing and also book a wife from the Summer Isles.
This then explains how Aegon I and Jaeheries I both have Veleryon mothers, yet appear to be white.
That wouldn’t happen though. A great amount of access and status was granted to house Velerion because they were desirable mates for breeding with the Targ royal family. Why? Because they had maintained the features/physiology of old Valyria through careful breeding. Incest was preferable to diluting the blood. So the summer islander thing, maybe a 4th son of little significance, but the heir to driftmark, much less 2 heirs in a row? No no.
@@krystalccameron7689 - Well it clearly did happen. There's literally no other explanation.
We don't know how much HBO has tweaked small things (Vaemond being Corly's brother). So perhaps Deamon Veleryron wasn't the oldest brother after all.
Or, perhaps he was but didn't care and married a woman from Summer Isles nobility anyway,.
Alyssa Veleryon (who we 1000% know is light-skinned) had already married into the Targaryens and was the matriarch of the royal family. We know she had younger brothers and uncles, so there are ample members of House Veleryon with traditional Valyrian features for the royal family to marry into, should they need to. There's no reason the most senior member of the house (presuming that's what Daemon Veleryon was) wouldn't be able to marry who he pleases. As the head of Driftmark, there are numerous reasons why a marriage alliance with the Summer Isles would be beneficial.
@@lucaschapel7197 it clearly didn’t happen. Occam’s razor. The show is an adaptation, the book is canon. Yes, the book isn’t definitive about events, but the descriptions of people are well established. House Velerion is white, not black. 2 heirs in a row and we don’t know what they’ve derived from the arrangement with summer islands. No no.
@@krystalccameron7689 - I'd say Occa's razor dictates that the Summer Isles is literally the only option.
What's the alternative? There isn't another option.
Deamon and Corwyn Veleryon must have married noble women from the Sumer Isles.
There's plentiful references to trees on the isles, which a small fraction of would have been used towards to Veleryon fleet; plus all the potential trade connections. Having a port to land in there would be ideal before sailing further into Essos.
Whilst it's rare, heads of important houses to marry into unexpected houses, even house Targaryen do this from time to time. Bealor Breakspear, the air to THE IRON THRONE married into house Dondarrion, with literally no Valyrian blood at all.
@@lucaschapel7197 Baelor brought Dorne into the realm and finished Aegon’s conquest. Can you tell me what driftmark has gained from the summer isles? Occam’s razor says the show runners have changed details during adaptation so the book is the book and the show is the show. As far as canon goes, Corlis is white with silver hair and purple eyes.
I super excited about Aegon's Black friend, hope they expand on his character's personality.
This is a much better explanation than "The race swap would create continuity issues." If they earnestly wanted proper diversity, they could've recycled or expended already known black characters. I have yet to see many shows or movies to date where expanding on characters was a bad idea as long as their written in a way that makes sense and add to the existing story.
Interesting topic ! Thank you
Race of characters has recently become a huge issue, but you gotta understand that ASOIAF was written by a white guy, so of course a majority of the characters are gonna be white lol what it crazy is Hollywood will just race swap a character instead of making or adapting a series that has black characters
That was essentially my point in the video - that there are original black characters in this story, but for some reason they are constantly either removed from the story entirely, or they are race-swapped into white characters. So since the showrunners and writers are so adamant to introduce diversity into the story, where are those original black characters from the books???
I think the issue is they look at black characters like Nettles and say 'not central enough. We need black main characters.'
For the same reason, this is probably why gay characters were removed, so Rhaenyra could be portrayed as bi instead. Its very cynical.
I knew Nettles would get shafted years ago before season 1 dropped when they cast the Valeryons, look i get it, the Valyrons look cool as shit with the white hair and all that but it's not enough. Id much rather they kept the Valeryons accurate to the books and then EXPANDED heavily on Nettles as an authentic black character than have 7 throwaway characters that are aesthetically black but are coded culturally white. How cool would it have been to have a side story seen only from nettles perspective? But I guess quantity is more important than quality when it comes to representation. They raceswap Corly's and somehow we still get stuck with the deadbeat dad trope LOL
So u meant say an Intelligent character irrespective of her skin tone who could prove that she can overcome the so called inheritance based Dragon Bond was cut to make a character in her place who deserves the dragon coz "mah birth right victimhood".
Yep 🤦🏾♂️😭
They're in Essos (or Dorne).. where they come from. Same for the white people belonging to westeros 😒
Dornish people aren't black. They are mediterranean/north african
I laugh every time I see those "Velaryons" in House of Dragons. It really takes one out of the programme.
Great video, bro!
Thank you, bro. Glad you liked it. 💯🙌🏾
It's a shame House of the Dragon seems to have cut Nettles out, considering she's such a fan favorite from the book. But yeah, for their talk of diversity, it is pretty ironic how they cut or changed the black characters who were already established.
Ironic and quite a shame. Nettles was a great character. 😔
pretty sure missandei and the naathi are supposed to be polynesian.
Being that Valyria is located in Essos where melanated people are, “black” Targaryens would exist…..they just wouldn’t look like Corlys……they would look like Laenor(the way they look in the show)….if the Dragon Magic made the ancient Valyrians’ skin so pale its white, hair so pale its silver and eyes from normal to purple…..then the Velaryons on the show should have the same features as the rest of the Valyrians….im sure there are light skinned black actors that could’ve played the roles….so that at least this shit could make sense.
The black people were more likely from Summer Isles. The white people of Westeros originally came from west Essos so why would that be any different for Targaryens. You’re looking at the GOT world like it’s our modern day world.
@@douglaskelley4486 when I say darker people I’m referring to the ancestors of the darker Dornish people who lived around western Essos
Can't forget Salladhor Saan, whom was in GoT, but his role was significant diminished and was completely forgotten about after Stannis & his family were all dead (the show as a whole got over Stannis very quickly).
Brown Ben Plume is a black dude from westeros
Yeah, he is a great character too in the books. I wanted to include him in this list, but I felt like the list would've been convoluted or too long. I was a sweet summer child then lol. I should've included him... but maybe I'll make a seperate video on him. 🤔
@thecriticalmaester9702 I hope you do! Looking forward to it!!
He was also the blood of the dragon- Danerys dragons LOVED him
I really enjoy your videos
But can you state if you're going to spoil cuz Cregan stark's video really slapped me with the big spoiler
Thank you very much for you effort
I got you. Sorry for that btw. 😅🙏🏾
Summer islanders ?
Chataya and Alayaya are from the Summer Isles. 👀
Moqorro was not important to the story of the show because Victarion is not there. The "White woman" who replaced him was also not an important character.
Still would have been interesting to see him and Victorian
This dude really just made a video suggesting having black female characters as prostitutes were good characters. He can't be serious? I'm glad those characters weren't included. With Missandei, you'd have 3 black female characters. One a slave & two prostitutes. The Red Priest sounds interesting. But I think those characters were cut, because George didn't really make good black characters.
@@keitht24 Sex work is real work!
House of the Dragon should've gone All in and made Jaehaerys dark complected. Because his mother, great grandmother and great great grandfather were all Velaryon.
I haven't read the books but the concept of dragon seeds is so interesting and I feel so robbed that we didn't get Nettles. Honestly the changes in GOT were definitely racism, but with HOD, I think the budget and amount of episodes have led to them cutting out a lot of significant side stories in order to simplify the plot.
I honestly dont have too much of an issue making house velaryon black- except that they are so intermarried with the Targaryens that both houses should have similar coloring. The conquerors' mother was half velaryon.
Also- it frustrates me that they are choosing to condense nettles into rhaena when if they HAD to cut the cast down and saw her as "not important enough" they could have fused her with the dragon riding Hull twin- making her MORE important and impactful, not less.
Given that EVERY single commercial on television is filled with black representation now, and how diversity is fetishized and put on a pedestal, I don’t mind a fantasy based on medieval Europe reflecting the homogeneous European demographics of the time.
Martin doesn't see black characters to be important as white characters like most people but they'll wrong
Black Jon Snow is gonna be drinking Hennessy instead of wine or ale. Instead of walking in snow, he's gonna be distributing it. Do u guys want that?
my personal pet peeve was making the valyrians and melisandre white. like ik they're pale, but pale skinned POC ethnic groups do exist, and them looking foreign would've made the targaryens' conqueror status seem richer imo
Because they are forced in the cast.
Quhuro and Kojja Mo and Xhondu Dhoru aboard the Cinnamon Wind are some of my favorite tertiary characters in the series. Shame you didn't mention them in this video.
Don't forget the Black Pearl, Bellegere Otherys.
I understand the need to condense storyline but as people have said Nettles is a key character. Her absence will affect other key characters’ storylines.
In terms of ‘race swapping’ characters, broadening the quantity of actors eligible to be cast is perfectly fine. Adapting a character from novel to film should involve questions like: does this character need to be female/male? white/black/asian? Young/old/middle aged? If those traits are unchangeable for the character to remain recognisable that should be respected. If a little change here or there does nothing to affect the character’s plotline no big deal.
Yeah but its an long term industry issue to cut OG POC characters and replace them with race-swapped characters (rhaena for example isnt even black she a 1/4 black).
Especially when Nettles is such more important than Rhaena & Baela or other dragonseed. Her story is irreplaceable.
They’re all about diversity and representation in HOTD which is why they race swapped the Velayrons even if it barely made any sense.
Yet they exclude a canonically black character Nettles because they don’t want to show just how bad and sick Daemon is. The fans all think Rhae and Daemon are a real true love, when in reality they were super super toxic. He no doubt groomed from a young age as she grew up with a hero worship of him. His love for Laena was completely downplayed. The fans were so shocked he choked Rhaenyra.
What did you expect?! He’s reckless and violent a horrible influence on Rhaenyra and the Greens were even more motivated to rebel because they feared Daemon whispering in her ear. At least if Aegon ruled he’d be fine being a figurehead whilst competent and experienced leaders like Otto and Alicent ruled for him. Daemon would turn the realm into a bloodbath. It was even written in the books, those negative qualities like that he’d totally burn the realm down so he could be king of the ashes. He was interested in the looks and innocence of young girls. Rhaenyra’s too old for him now.
They just don’t want to show just how evil Daemon can be and his affair with Nettles because part of the appeal of the Blacks is they have the “epic love story” trope which makes them entertaining. Showing him bedding Nettles and Mysaria whilst being married to Rhaenyra will ruin that for fans.
Leave it to Hollywood to solve racism in the story by actually being racist with the casting.
I want NETTLES
Booooooooo 🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅
This means that Aegon and his sister wives were Black cuz their Mom was A Valeyron
in the books the velaryons are white.
Yep, though it will depend on the explanation that the show ends up giving for the Velaryon's race-swap.
They're white in the books.
@@thecriticalmaester9702I mean the show Gives us the impression that the Valeyrons have always been black since the beginning
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Yea they kinda wrote themselves in a corner there . But having black in you doesn’t necessarily make one black . As far the show I don’t think real world genetics matters. For example Baela and Rhaena would be technically a quarter black and they would not look that black like in the show with daemon as the father . But as far as Aegon ,. They can just say that his mother was half black so that why aegon looks full white. Velaryons must have bred with other houses over time ,their not Targaryen’s .
What if Coryls’ dad married a summer islander? I couldn’t find who Corwyn velaryon married and it makes sense both being extremely sea faring people
and 3 generations of marrying into targaryens later theyre still black? nah the real reason is because of the agenda....
It makes sense, but has the show confirmed that??? I think Condal made the Velaryon's black saying that their ancestors were always black and that they were a part of the Freehold. If that's the case then it would mean many Targaryen characters are supposed to be black. But the show hasn't confirmed this yet.
If Corlys' father did marry a Summer Islander then it would make better sense, though.🤔 But excluded Nettles is crazy. I don't understand that decision at all. She's too important to the story...and she's an original, black, female character that's already beloved by book fans. Why change that??? 😒
@@thecriticalmaester9702 no thats just what ive been going with in my head especially with the fact that corlys would look even lighter than laenor if the black ancestor was that far back after all the marriages with the targaryens also we dont know nettles is cut yet she may show up in season 2 we see a black girl in raggedy clothes that may be her or she may show up in season 3 because it takes longer for her to tame sheepstealer i also have a whole theory that she never existed that i might make a video on
@@thecriticalmaester9702 it's cheaper to not pay another actor
Wasn’t Taena tanned ?
Yes, Taena is described as being a beautiful olive-skinned woman from Myr & Myrish people are considered exotic-looking by Westerosi standards.
Could you make a video of barristan being a traitor to the targaryen dynasty
You think Barristan is a traitor??? How so??? 🤔👀
What? Seriously?
You clearly don’t read the books
No it’s where are the Asians
There is a region in the world called YiTi, which is a Westerosi and fantastical version of China in medieval times. 🤔
They only worry about the races that scare them.
You are just throwing out technicalities, there's a HUGE difference between the very few black side characters we get in the books (c-d characters in almost every case)
The black character in comparison to the white character of the books of very miniscule with no storylines that don't revolve around aiding a white person. No not siding. But literally being a side character to their storyline.
Having the Valaryeons as a prominent sea faring house AND black does a lot for this world.
@@noturmum7967 what does it do for the world exactly?
@@noturmum7967 what does it do for the world exactly?
Weres the black people in Middle Earth Lord of the Rings hmm?
Idk 😅 Did Tolkien include black people in his story or lore??? 👀Because George RR Martin definitely did. Which is the point of my video.
George was a big fan of Tolkien and yes in all six film peter Jackson excluded the black people I don't know why the stories between to to creators are similar to each other and I like both of the franchises I was just making a point nothing more nothing less you didn't have to insulte me or humiliate me over a remark in the original Star Wars movie there wasn't one single black person and it either peace!
@@MellowFellow.247 No no no, I wasn't insulting you. I was genuinely asking. I actually haven't read Lord of the Rings yet, so I really didn't know.
But if they did exclude black characters then that's messed up. That's my point in this video. There are black people that are already in these stories, so why do the writers adapting the source material exlcude them? 🤔 I don't understand. If they're all about diversity and inclusion, then why don't they just keep them in the story.
first of all nettles hasn’t even come into the story yet in HOTD. I wouldn’t doubt her being introduced the first episode of season 2
First episode? Doubt it. But we'll see for the rest of the season. I doubt that, too, though. 🤔
@@thecriticalmaester9702 if not first episode they’re definitely adding her later on because they’re gonna be doing the new dragon riders pretty early, but aye that’s jus my opinion cuz nun of us know
The show lacks Hispanic or Asian characters and you don’t hear us bitching about it. The irony
Watch the video before you embarrass yourself. He's not asking or bitching about anything.
Oh ffs. Where’s the Chinese people? The Polish? The Inuit? The Aboriginals? The Suomi? The South Pacific Islanders? Why is it always the professional victims that get this??
Did you watch the video before commenting? Or do you just have the emotional strength of an 11 year old?
Watch the video first, bro, and then formulate a better question. I think you missed what was said. 😅
Yi Ti (china) exist in this world. but just like history, Asian people very rarely visited England in those days just like Westeros. Hence why there are so few Asian people.
I also get what you’re saying, but I had a feeling Dorn was a mixture of Muslim and Hispanic culture.
Meaning there aren’t many Hispanic representation and I am Hispanic myself. But you don’t hear me bitching about it.
I acknowledge the show is a reflection of englands history which is mostly white. So I see no reason to complain