@@pepeepupoo he's been openly talking recently about how he worries his legacy won't stand for much more time after his passing because he fears he won't be able to finish the books. Seriously, look it up. I believe his realisation of the value of legacy is the reason why he's been so much more triggered about HOTD than he ever was about GOT.
@@donovan4222 I think it was both, cause the arc he went on in the show was to ultimately let Cerci go and kill her. The showrunners however made him do a complete 180 and die with Cerci without properly writing it to make sense.
People often forget the line Ned Stark says to Jamie in the throne room when they’re talking about the mad king “you served him well, when serving was safe”. That suggests to me that Neds issue isn’t just that Jamie killed his king but that he is a snake that betrayed the king he was sworn to protect once it became clear he was on the losing side of the war. It needs to be remembered that Ned never had the context that we had about Jamies motives as the only person Jamie told about what actually happened was Brienne when Ned had already died.
Yeah, but at the same time, Ned also still knows the same about Ser Barristan; like Jaime, Ser Barristan was ALSO right there in the room when Ned's brother and father were burned, and like Jaime, Barristan conveniently didn't intervene then. Sure, Barristan didn't backstab the Mad King, but Barristan also obviously didn't object to Robert becoming his new king to serve either. Yet Ned heaps Ser Barristan with respect as a fellow warrior, while also treating Jaime with total disdain. I love Ned, but he's still a big hypocrite in this case.
@@mrreyes5004 Barristan's service and experience in the Kings guard was vastly different from Jamie. The mad king wasn't always mad. For the first 2 decades of his rule it was actually quite peaceful and Barristan even describes him as even-tempered and fair. But in the last decade he became demented and obsessed with prophecy, dragons and fire. Barristan had pinned most of his hopes on Rhaegar and was simply trying to endure Aerys' last years as King while protecting the Royal Family he swore to serve. Barristan was also in the army fighting against Robert with Rhaegar at the Trident and was badly wounded in the fighting. By the time Barristan recovered from his wounds the rebellion was over and the royal family was all but slain. When Jamie killed the Mad King, all of the other Kingsguard were elsewhere, and Jamie was being kept as Aerys' personal guard because they thought it would help sway Tywin to siding with the Targaryen's since his son was in the Keep. From the bits of dialogue we have it's probably safe to assume that most of the Kingsguard probably wouldn't have done what Jamie did if they had been there. Most of them remembered Aerys before the madness set in and most of them liked Rhaegar and believed in him. Hightower even chastised Jamie after Neds father and brother were executed by reminding Jamie of his oath and telling him not to judge the King for his actions in burning the two men alive. I don't think Ned is quite being a hypocrite here. Jamie's character is hypocritical, cynical, and doesn't take his oaths too seriously up until after his hand is cut off. That is essentially his entire arc. Moving from a life of expediency and convenience to one where his word matters and his honor matters. If Jamie couldn't abide by the King's actions, it's just as dishonorable to wait for the "perfect moment" after swearing an oath. Ned's criticism is always "If you knew he was mad, then why did you swear to protect him?" Why lie? Because Jamie (admittedly as a boy) wanted to be a dashing knight and saw that as the easiest path to it without actually caring about what he was swearing to do and then he essentially took the easy way out as soon as it presented itself to him. He has always taken the easy way out of things. One wonders if his service to Robert had been more difficult and not just involved minor rebellions, would Jamie have upheld his oath, or would he have broken that too as soon as it got difficult? Jamie's growth is about doing the hard things even if the outcome might be bad for him. This is the true definition of a hero, and I expect that whenever George finally releases the next book we'll see the culmination of Jamie's arc when he is brought before Lady Stoneheart. A good knight will emerge.
The difference between Jaime and Barristan at the end of the day, from Ned's perspective, is that (at the time especially) Barristan was much more fundamentally a good hearted individual, whereas Jaime was not. If Barristan killed the mad king, I think Ned would have been far more generous to him, because Ned knew Barristan to be a good man. Ned, correctly I might add, viewed Jaime as an evil man...and I believe firmly that at the time, Jaime totally was an evil man...the bath house scene and corresponding book moment are not so much a reveal as a character change...with Jaime realizing through introspection that he buried the emotions he felt about the situation, and ultimately made the declaration that he killed the mad king for the people, not for his evil dad like he told himself at night to go to sleep in a backwards Lannister pride "the people are sheep" sortof way that was at the time so deeply engrained in Jaime. The point is Ned was 100% correct, Jaime just changed, and Ned probably would have respected it in time upon seeing this change in action. In d&d terms, the lawful good paladin openly disliked for very justifiable reasons the neutral evil rogue, but didn't outright murder him because at least the rogue accidentally carried out justice on behalf of the paladin's family...but the paladin still recognized the rogue for what he was, neutral evil. The rogue, of course, through hardship and actualization, works to change his alignment and live up to the expectations of a man many agreed to be far far more good than himself.
Season 3 Jaime-*Cries about being ordered to stand by as innocents are murdered by his insane king" Season 8 Jaime: "To be honest, I never really much cared for them. Innocent or otherwise" Fuck season 8
Tbh I don't really mind it. I kind of like how he actually sticks to the woman he genuinely loves even if she's bad for him. The problem is everything else around it that has him act completely out of character
@@lokenontherange Him going back to Cersei is completely out of character. At the end of S7 he finally comes to terms with how she is too far gone on the path of revenge and power, with her refusal to help fight against the army of the dead being the final straw. So he abandons Cersei to fight for something truly honorable again. To do all that, defeat the White Walkers and find happiness with Brienne (the actual woman he ought to love genuinely), it then makes virtually no sense for him to say fuck it and go back to Cersei except for cheap shock value or because D&D had a vendetta against him.
@@dahannes6739 Justifying people doing questionable things that are out of character because they're 'acting irrationally' or 'not thinking straight' is a pretty nothing argument unless said character has actually gone insane. Jamie knew that Cersei needed to be stopped, it's why there are so many theories that he will be the one to kill her in the books, she's a power hungry tyrant who will burn hundreds of her own people to get what she wants. If they wanted him to go back to King's Landing, it would've been more in character if he went back to ring the bells of surrender or kill her himself and prevent innocent deaths.
@MrLeapFrog It's not though. He leaves Cersei to keep his oath. He then returns to her because he loves her. None of that is against the character that is Jaime Lannister. It's against his character to sleep with Brienne. Against his character to show no consideration for the smallfolk at all. But it's not against his character to accept and love Cersei. The only people who it doesn't make sense to are people who are too caught up in fan theories.
like if in the book he got killed by Euron while killing him in the process it would be stupid but it would be really cool at least since Euron is THE BIGGEST threat outside of the white walkers
You're being very unfair to Ned. No, Ned *doesn't* know that proclaiming Stannis king will lead to war. From Ned's perspective, once the truth is out everyone will fall in line except probably Tywin - and the Lannisters *by themselves* won't start a war they couldn't possibly win. Ned is flawed and he makes mistakes, but GRRM's hand is also heavily on the scales to shape the plot to the point where Ned is executed. Ned makes three mistakes - telling Arya and Sansa they're leaving, giving Cersei a warning; and trusting Littlefinger - and the last one isn't even entirely his fault. He trusts *his wife* who is the one making the mistake of telling Ned to trust Littlefinger. Ned believes he has the City Watch on his side. Ned believes that Renly will support Stannis (people always forget that Renly doesn't make his own plans clear and declare himself king until *after* Ned is imprisoned). Ned believes seizing Cersei and Joffrey will be quick and bloodless, and that Stannis will get to King's Landing before Tywin. Also, the 'rightness' of Ned's honour is shown much later, in his legacy. The show completely ignored this, so maybe that's colouring your take on Ned, but his honourable treatment of his bannermen in the North fosters loyalty in them that lasts long after his death. Even the Northern Mountain Clans, who are basically wildlings, respect Ned so much that they side with Stannis to save someone they believe to be Ned's daughter. The Boltons are facing collapse because Ned's leadership created a far more effective power base than Tywin could foster with his allies. You're bang on that Jaime is the best character, though. Particularly in the books / if we ignore the mess the show became.
Something I always like to point out: multiple people warned Ned that Stannis would "break the realm" if he were king, but every single one of them was the kind of liar and schemer Stannis would've sent to the Wall and had done with. Ned was very definitely doing the right thing for the realm by supporting Stannis, despite the proclamations of, for example, Varys and Littlefinger.
To be fair, Littlefinger actually gave Ned *smart* advice. The moment he betrayed Ned and threw his lot in with the Lannisters was done out of exasperation rather than glee. He was *genuinely* disappointed how Ned's honor made him ignore every smart move he COULD have made and lead to things escalating the way they did. So, ironically, if Ned had trusted Littlefinger when it mattered things would have turned out FAR better
Yeah. Ned has flaws and faults, but he is not completely wrong. I mean pretty much late into the books. It is clearly shown that Ned still holds an enduring legacy, with his entire kingdom willing to fight for him. But also along with many in the Riverlands, the Vale, and even back at the Stormlands. Even other characters throughout the books acknowledge that Ned's so called foolish honor is also his greatest strength, as he pretty much is remembered even past his death as one of the greatest men of westeros. Even the mountain clansmen of the Vale are willing to march with Stannis to Winterfell, not for Stannis' claim to the throne. But for Ned's memory and to possibly save his girl (It is Jeyne though, but they didn't knew that) Meanwhile Tywin? He is pretty much forgotten or hated by everyone Like pretty much none of his bannerman and vassals on the West has made no extra effort to save Cersei, Tyrion or Jaime in Kings Landing. They all pretty much just breathed a sigh of relief when they heard Tywin died Only Kevan Lannister is some of their close family actually misses Tywin. But not the entire Westerlands and such. The West pretty much abandoned Tywin and his legacy
Jamie's arc is about rediscovering his nobility. When he was a child he idolized knighthood and the ones who bore the title, Barristan Selmy, Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, in fact, had Jamie been born to any noble family other than the Lannisters he would have been basically Arthur Dayne's little brother. But, between his own family's machinations and the realities of serving an unworthy and cruel king he became jaded and cruel himself. As he travels with Brienne though, he starts to remember all the things that inspired him to knighthood to begin with, all the ideals worth fighting for, worth dying for, and he begins to be that man he saw himself becoming when he was a boy.
“The human heart in conflict with itself” or “Love is the death of duty” are often used as ways to express the central tenant of the series; but I really liked the way you rephrased it as The worth of a character not being in how the follow a code, but in when they’re willing to break that code and why. Love how much George gets out of putting his characters outside of their comfort zones and seeing how they react to having their buttons pushed
And then having the power of will not to despair or simply kill yourself, just to keep your "honor". I think that's an important part as well. Jaime acted. He did something. He knew he was lost but at least he wanted it to mean something even if no one ever would acknowledge that.
He's called Kingslayer because he murdered King he swore to protect. He could kill pyromancer and capture the king. Since he was member of Kingsguard, killing his king was worst crime he could commit. If he captured the king and held him till dust settles after sack of kings landing, he wouldn't have such reputation. Also that way he wouldn't have to go kill his father as mad King told him to do. Jamie's action and Lannisters actions during sack of the kings landing showed Ned there are without honor because Tywin and his army came with lie of helping the Targaryens and after death of Mad King Jaime rested his arse on Iron Throne. Ned was right in his judgement. Also Mad Kng wanted him and Robert dead so they have no choice than to uprise against him but Ned nor Starks would do things that Lannisters did. And yes Stannis is rightful heir since Robert's kids are not his and if Robert found out, there wouldn't be big war. Robert if he wasn't poisoned by again dishonourable Lannisters would smash Lannisters as soon as he found out the truth. Lannisters by their actions started the war and they only won because of Renly who thought he has right to be king although as Robb says, older siblings is the heir, no one else. Also Greyjoys' dumb tactics attacking poor North instead of rich Lannisport and westerlands as Robb and Theon wanted. Still in book Lannisters are done and if Edmure wasn't glory hunger, Robb would capture Tywin and brought end the war against them
You have to remember he was a 16 or 17 year old boy who has just been ordered by his to kill his own father and who had already seen docens of men got killed by that same king, who is also about to order the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. It's understandable that his first instinct is killing the king even if you can see a possible better alternative in hindsight. Even then we can't be sure Aerys wouldn't have been able to give the order to another person if Jaime kept him alive. The person who found Jaime was Ned Stark, but another Targaryen fanatic could have come through that door and obey the king's orders. Jaime didn't have the reader's knowledge. And again, he was a terrified 17 year old.
@@AgusSkywalker Terrified 17 year old? Boy of 17 in that world is what man of 30s is in real world. He had an army in city that would protect him so no he wasn't terrified. He could incapacitated King and kill his fanatics as they come if any would. He's Kingsguard. His 1st rule is not to kill his own king. He killed him because that was easier same as Lannisters killed Elia children. They wanted to get rid of problems as soon as they could. Hindsight have nothing with this. If he is kingsguard, he knows his duties and even if he knows time is up, he still shouldn't done what he did. Real honourable Kingsguard would force King to run from the city to protect him because that's job hes doing. As Barristan Selmy said. Jaime Lannister, men best known by killing king he swore to protect. Or Blackfish in Tv show word from Kingslayer is like building on sand. Entire realm sees him as dishonourable, not just Ned.
@@michaelstark8720realistically there’s always a loophole/better way of going about things. But GRRM specifically wrote that part of the Mad King and Jaime to where Jaime only had 2 options. And which of those 2 options he would choose. Obviously later when he’s older he is more competent in creating better solutions (when he took back Riverun) but even then he had way more time to discuss his options. The Mad King situation was literally no time to think and to just choose.
You fundamentally don't understand the feudal oaths. You swear loyalty to the king, the king swears to defend your lands and people and to rule justly. When one breaks the oath the other is invalid. It's not blind loyalty to a king.
This was the crux of Robert's Rebellion. The king had broken the "social construct" of the feudal system. His son kidnapped the daughter of a Great Lord (Duke equivalent/direct vassal to the king). When the woman's family rightly came to the capital and asked for justice, they were murdered without trial. So if even the highest lords of the land can't get justice from the royal family... then who can? And that was just the final nail in the coffin. The king was a tyrant that would not flagrantly abuse his own laws while grossly mismanaging the realm. He was only protecting his own interests at the expense of the realm, and thus, the rebellion was justified. This is what Renly, and so many braindead fans of his, get wrong about the rebellion. Robert wasn't a representation of "might makes right," as his legitimacy was ultimately predicated on the Targaryens squandering theirs first. Remember, it wasn't just Aerys either: the crown prince had just kidnapped one of the highest-born daughters of the realm. Before that point, there was talk of a quiet coup where Aerys would be forced to step down and let his son take the throne early. But then Rhaegar had to go and cock things up, quite literally, which destroyed the remaining shred of legitimacy the royal family had. Then, and only then, was Robert's use of force seen as a justified way to claim the throne. Had his cause really just been "fuck you, I have more swords," that would set an extremely dangerous precedent where any petty Lord can just raise an army and challenge the king. For a historical example... see the later years of the Roman Empire. The "Crisis of the 3rd Century" saw something like 3 dozen emperors in the span of barely a century. This included a single year with three different emperors.... it was truly a mess where there was no "illusion" of power nor shred of legitimacy left in the Throne, and as such, chaos reigned. Such anarchy wouldn't have immediately resulted from Renly's actions, but it would have set a very dangerous precedent and further destabilized the throne's 'illusion of power' worse than it already was. So yes, that is the perceived difference between Ned and Jamie. In Ned's eyes, Jamie only sided against the King when the war was already over. This is why Robert initially refused to marry Cersei as it was clear Tywin was only opportunistically betraying the king to score some last minute brownie points with the inevitable winner. In private, Tywin freely admits this and just assumed that Jamie was following his lead by betraying the king while Tywin was storming the gates. (Although this ignores how Jamie was effectively a hostage throughout the war, as that was the reason he was specifically kept by Aerys's side. Tywin's neutrality was essentially him not wanting to risk his son's death, but at the same time unwilling to swallow his pride and help out Aerys after he humiliated Tywin repeatedly. Thus, one can only assume Tywin knowingly risked his son's life when choosing to betray Aerys. He was still being ruthlessly pragmatic, but this puts a few more wrinkles into the equation that simultaneously make Tywin look better and worse.)
@@duncanlutz3698 Then the much lauded theme of conflicting oaths is contradicted by the world-building, where the Lord-vassal bond is broken allowing for the canceling of oaths is understood for Robert but then ignored to give Jamie his drama. Which seems natural enough for Martin to do; Robert’s rebellion is the premise and historically lifted; Jamie’s arc is from Martin’s own mind.
@@xenophon5354It’s not contradicted, Jamie points out multiple times how unfair it is that some people are punished for breaking oaths more than others and how the rules aren’t consistent. Martin is aware of this and explores it. The reason people don’t see the rebellion as dishonorable is because the rebellion won, history is written by the victor. And history decided that Robert’s rebellion was justified while blaming all the ugly “dishonrable” bits on Jamie and the Lannisters. In reality, Jamie didn’t do anything worse than the others in the rebellion, but since he’s the one who stabbed the king none of that matters, he’s the scapegoat who takes the fall to appease the “honor” gods.
@@donovan4222 If Martin’s goal is to meaningfully explore Medieval oath culture then he has failed to do so. Jamie’s rejoinder is simple: Aerys violated his feudal obligation and thus nullified his oath. Ned may or may not believe him so drama can be happily maintained, but this is not the justification Jamie professes when the audience is given the revelation. The same would be true of Ned and Rob: their rebellion can absolutely justified in a medieval context, as the king violated his feudal obligations and thus nullified them. They didn’t violate any oaths, those oaths were broken by the king. Martin’s, and thus Jamie’s, perspective of moral concerns (innocent or otherwise lives being spared, Justice for the lords of Winterfell) conflicting with oaths is a modern one with a medieval paint job. Martin is exploring something: duty vs utilitarian moralism, but it is exploring a modern not medieval perspective. This is the problem I’m highlighting. The story is wearing a medieval skin suit without understanding feudal culture. That’s fine, but the video, and many folks, treat these works as explorations of that old dusty morality of our past. It isn’t.
Love your stuff but a little bit of Ned defense here. Ned and Robert didn’t rebel to rule. They rebelled cause the Mad King called for their heads as well as trying to get back Lyanna (who as far as they knew had been kidnapped by Rhaegar.) Robert had the best claim to the throne after the Targs were overthrown as he was the oldest Baratheon and had a closer link to the Targs blood wise then anyone else. Do I think Ned was doing the right thing to get Stannis the Mannis as king? Yes. Because Joffrey was a monster who would cause thousands of deaths no matter what. It was both the honorable and moral thing. He just trusted the wrong man. Someone his wife, had told him to trust. And had been working with him for weeks to months in finding out the truth about Joffrey. Great video overall and I do really like Jaime but the Ned slander needs to be countered.
The show shaped people’s perception of Ned as an honorable fool way too much, while also portrayed Jaime way too positively until they chose not to. Ned and Jaime’s relationship is much more complicated than that and we shouldn’t forget that Ned cannot read Jaime’s mind like us so he saw Jaime as everyone else in this universe saw him.
@@nont18411 Indeed. Ned didn't know any of Jaime's reasoning because Jaime stupidly, stubbornly, didn't tell anyone about the wildfire caches and generally because of Jaime's reflexive antagonism. Ned arrived at King's Landing finding the city sacked by the Lannisters, Rhaegars family slaughtered by Clegane and Jaime lounging on the Iron Throne as if it was his. I'm thinking he was too preoccupied by his worries for Lyanna to investigate in detail what had happened, so he chalked Jaime's deed up as something he solely did for his father and then rushed off to the Tower of Joy. Imagine a world in which Jaime killed Aerys and had the awareness to ensure Elia's safety. Ned would have been significantly less harsh in his judgement of the guy. Or even a world where Jaime revealed the wildfire caches. Instead Jaime wallowed in a strange mixture of arrogance and self-pity, too proud to explain himself, fueling the fires of people assuming the worst of him.
@@dschehutinefer5627 To top that, when the Blackfish said that Jaime broke his oath to Catelyn by orchestrating the red wedding, Jaime’s inner monologue was something like he wanted to explain to Blackfish that he had no parts in it but somehow the words stuck in his mouth so in the end, Jaime didn’t defend himself. Maybe it’s a mixture of his Lannister pride and his guilt. He might tried to defend himself but his subconscious acknowledged that he’s also guilty and they’re right to condemn him. But, honestly, Jaime should have told his side of the story more to make people understand his point and hate him less.
@@nont18411 This is likely because Jamie is trying to emulate Tywin. I don't remember if "A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep" is in the books or not but even if its not explicitly said its clear that Tywin believes this and the sheep are not just the peasantry. Explaining your actions can be considered to be an act of vulnerability because you are admitting that you have at the very least failed to portray yourself accurately and possibly have made a mistake and you also have to admit that other people's opinion of you matters. The latter means that if said people wished they could refuse to believe you simply to make a power play. This is why when people apologize in the midst of getting canceled it makes it worst because the type of people who spend all day on twitter looking for blood have smelt their next meal. Denying any wrongdoing or better ignoring any accusations is much better because then your political enemies don't have an interlocuter in the debate. This is of course super toxic and is only a valid strategy when the mistnuderstanding party doesn't actually care about the truth of the matter. To be fair to Jamie, that is laregely true in King's landing. Ned is likely the only one honest enough to genuinely treat him differently if he knew the truth and even then I don't think he would be able to get over the Lannister Stark rivalry, The Blackfish wouldn't care at all.
Really good analysis. And I agree with your point that ice and fire isn’t just dark edgy realistic storytelling with no meaning or theme. It absolutely has them, and thankee for pointing that out. I really enjoyed the video
It was actually Ned's LACK of honor that sealed his fate. He concealed the truth of Joffrey's parantage and forged Robert's decree by writing "rightful heir" instead of "my son, Joffrey." Ned should've told Robert the truth and then bargained for the lives of the bastard children, advocating for their banishment to Casterly Rock or The Wall. Then, if Robert insisted on the children being killed, Ned could resign to preserve his honor as he did with the hit on Daenerys. Cersei would be executed and Jamie would become an outlaw with no choice but to flee Westeros or join the Night's Watch to avoid his own execution. Then Stannis would be installed as king and Ned would return to Winterfell with his family. With Robert dead, and Tywin's only remaining legitimate heir being Tyrion, Tywin would have no reason to start a war with the Baratheons. He might even be inclined to give Tyrion a chance since he would be the only hope for the Lannister legacy. Ned really fumbled the bag by allowing Robert to die believing that Joffrey was his legitimate son and heir.
I’m not sure it would have made a difference, because they end up completely ignoring all of Robert’s wishes anyways. Cersei tears up his final decree and captures Ned. In between the time Ned had to talk to Robert and when he died, I don’t think there was much they could do to change the public perception of Joffrey being the heir. I’m not sure things would go any differently…
@donovan4222 but if Robert found out and publicly declared his children bastards and at least put all those things into motion BEFORE his death then it would be extremely hard to pull off a mutiny.
A good thing to remember is its virtually impossible to make a entirely "morally correct choice" when the situation and circumstances have moved so far past moral as to be unreachable. So you do the best you can
Sheev, this is why i like the TV show Babylon 5 so much., it really explores morality in complex terms. One of the main characters of the show does a lot of horrible things but also a lot of it is done to benefit his own people so the show explores morality from different perspectives.
Technically, Ned never swore an oath to Aerys. He never had a chance to, since he inherited his seat as a result of the very actions that led him to war. I'm not saying that doesn't make his view of ironclad honor any less inconsistent, but it is a fact that would have mattered to Ned and kept him from growing beyond his hidebound mindset.
I have only passively absorbed information on GRRM's works (I think I can vaguely place Battle [X] and character arc [Y] on a timeline with decent accuracy) and viewed very little of your catalogue, but I believe this to be an inspiring essay. For all the voices crying in frustration at GoT, I'm glad I got to hear some praise for it on a scale I can recognise. Thank you, Chancellor.
I'm not a fan of GoT, but I'm here enjoying this video because it's nice to see Sheev enjoying something too. It's good to be critical of media, but it's also often better to give an example of what we think is good rather than endlessly critiquing everything else, and I can appreciate Sheev doing that. I'd love to see more shorter videos about things that are done well, as much as I enjoy the longer breakdowns of why stuff sucks.
I think GRR martin wrote it in a way that allowed that kinda killing in the beginning, but in the end you cant get away with complete tropes since ur story wouldnt exist anymore
this is nice, I like this. The long, thorough, gutting of something only really works when I personally find the source material either boring or actually bad.
I'd argue that "Good overcoming evil" at the end of the story won't mean commiting genocide on a weird-looking subspecies of human. Martin really tipped his hands about how the white walkers aren't really evil when he called them "The Others" and had the tropes they're being demonized with overlap so much with the free folk (stealing children from their beds and such). On an unrelated note, great video.
I think Jon will turn himself into the Night’s King to lead the white walkers and keep them away from the realm of men, which is why he got his “going north” ending. Plus, it fits with Azor Ahai as well. Azor Ahai himself didn’t exterminate all the white walkers, only kept them at bay for 8000 years. This time, Jon, the second coming of Azor Ahai will pick up where the OG Azor Ahai left off. Like Alliser Thorne said in the show: “I’ve fought. I’ve lost. Now I rest. But you, Lord Snow, you will have to fight these battles forever.” Jon’s resurrection is not a blessing. It’s a curse. Now thanks to his inability to die and his strong sense of duty, he has to do this duty forever to save the mankind and might one day unleash the long night again to cleanse the greed and corruption that humankind descended into. The white walkers will never die out because they are an allegory for climate change. Human damaged the environment too much that they can’t stop it anymore, only tolerates it or keeps it at bay. This is how Jon’s story will end (or in this case, continue forever).
What? It's maybe overly simplistic to call The Others 'evil', but I don't think that means they're just misunderstood either. They represent an alien, existential threat. They're more like climate change than a faction of sapient people with beliefs and consciences. Their purpose is to represent the real threat to the world that's going ignored while humans carry on with their petty bullshit (again, I don't think I'm reaching to say they're a climate change analogy). I don't know that they need to be wiped out for the story to have a conclusive, 'good' ending but they are absolutely a threat to be stopped. The only vague outcome I'm inclined to predict is that Bran will stop them, and something in the means of stopping them as a threat will regulate Westeros' seasons - make winter and summer equal and regular.
I'd need to read more of the books, since I'm definitely stuck between deciding if the series is Nihlistic or Optimistic (if that would even be the right word). Heroics are subverted, sure, but people who do awful shit get what's coming to them.
Ned isn't contradictory or hypocritical for despising Jaime. He sees Jaime as a coward who only chose to do the right thing once he knew he could get away with it. Ned Stark's one theme is that he does what he thinks is right regardless of the risks or odds. He is a warrior. Jaime by comparison slowly learns how to have 'moral courage': the strength to do the right thing even when it leads to his death. We see this when he stands up for Brienne and later when he charges Daenerys. Jaime's arc is that in the beginning he sees Ned as an idiot, but as he gets older and becomes a better person he becomes more and more like Ned, taking bigger risks for the sake of what's right. I personally believe that Jaime is written to face the wrath of the Targararyens one last time, allowing himself to be burned alive to save an innocent person (I would predict Sansa or Myrcella) to redeem himself for his cowardice in the court of the Mad King. But a man can dream
@@wisdommanari6701 Nobody is saying that Jaime did harm by killing Aerys. Secondly Stannis was already going to claim the throne anyway. What Ned was trying to do was prevent another war by taking Cersei into custody before the Lannisters could get thousands of troops into Kings Landing. If it wasn't for Littlefinger Stannis would have Ned holding the Cersei and her children hostage so no funny business from Tywin until Stannis could march in with an army and no war of the 5 kings. He knew there was a risk but the only mistake he made was trusting the goldcloaks.
Regarding all the people wondering whether or not G.R.R. Martin will ever finish Game of Thrones, consider the following two points: 1. Some people think that the final season of the TV show did hit all the important plot points and story beats G.R.R. Martin plans/planned to hit and now he can't bring himself to finish it, given how many people ended up disliking it. 2. Personally, I'm more convinced that George Martin simply can't bring himself to finish the story the way he has written it so far. He has said that when he started Game of Thrones, he started with the plan to subvert everything about Lord of the Rings, but now he has arrived at the point in the story where the obvious conclusion is that "Prophecised Heroes and True Good actually do exist" and Jon Snow's eventual triumph over the Forces of Evil would justify all the horrible shit that has happened. But that's not the story Martin wants to wrtie. And so, he doesn't write it.
Jaime is so much more interesting in books. Jaimes charcter started to break when they took him to kings landing too soon, in end of season 3. Like why did he and brienne do nothing with sansa.
Excellent essay about Jaime Lannister, the most interesting character in ASOIAF. He is a commentary on a blind honor that may bring suffering and it is not an answer. I would love hearomh your thoughts on Daenerys Targaryen and her role in this story. Even though many people believe the show's ending is her ultimate book ending, the books don't portray her as such. She is always aware of what suffering her dragons may bring if she is forced to use them and still the care for the innocent is her core personality value. It become stronger after she experienced what it was like to be a slave herself. She views small folk as slaves who deserve something better in life and ruler who wouldn't abuse them. I think her bittersweet ending would've been taking King's Landing from Cersei but at great cost because the true Mad Queen, Cersei, blew up the city with wildfire to deny the victory. She'd become the Queen of Ashes but she'd have spent the rest of her reign to make up for the lost innocent life. So, she'd have broken the wheel at last. I wonder if she won the throne, she'd establish some kind of council ruling to avoid another civil war but I dunno. I think what fans deserve is that a it Tolkien-like ending where the ones who were lusting for power for their own gain, would pay the consequences for it. The ones who fight for the living like Jon and Daenerys would show that being a hero is not easy but the world needs them still. Ahh... If we only could reset Game of Thrones to the ending of Season 6 at least and restart 2 last seasons, give it 10 episodes each and have that epic war against the Night Walkers at the end.
4 months ago, I started reading GoT again. I read all 5 books, along with The Hedge Knight, The Sworn Sword and The Mystery Knight, which I finished 2 days ago. It feels strangely empty with no Winds of Winter to pick up and read. I fear we'll never get a finished product... just an incomplete novel.
While it was interesting & entertaining the 1st few great seasons, the postmodern crap was finally defeated in my eyes at the end of s7e4 "The Spoils of War" (in the thumbnail) when i found myself genuinely being moved by Jamie's charge at Danny, & couldn't help desperately wanting him to get her -or even the dragon; to be a heroic knight like you might see in classic fantasy
Ned hated Jamie not because he betrayed the mad king, Ned himself was a rebel so it would be an obvious hypocrisy. Ned hated Jamie because from his perspective Jamie was acting in tandem with Tywin to save his own skin. That’s why Ned doesn’t buy it when Jamie says he was thinking about Brandon and rickon while killing the mad king. He thinks it’s just an excuse to shave off the guilt. Jamie never told anyone the truth because he knew Edward wouldn’t have believed him.
Jamie is also trying to live by Tyrion’s motto, to embrace his flaws and wear it like armor. Unlike Tyrion however (who is blameless for his dwarfism) Jamie’s fate was entirely in his control. He did sit back and watch while the king committed his crimes. He did use honor to shield him from moral responsibility. That’s why it bothers him. That’s why he likes people like Brianne who aren’t afraid to do as their moral compass tells them to do.
@@master_of_the_fort6873 yeah it’s more that he thinks the Lannisters playing both sides out of convenience is dishonorable. With people who honorably served the Targaryens like Barristan, he respects them more than people who joined his side to save their own skin, like the Lannisters.
Ned's actions are justified because the King broke his part of the social contract; he killed his father and brother and demanded that Jon Arryn deliver his head though he was not involved. Jaime OTOH was sworn specifically and irrevocably to the King and was the one to kill him. Ned was in open rebellion, Jaime was not.
Great video, only thing I would point out is when Jamie pushed Bran out the window, I doubt he was thinking it was the option that would lead to the best outcome for the most people, just based on him saying "the things I do for love." If anything he was explicitly thinking about himself and his relationship with Cersei, which led him to do something that can't be justified. But I think this makes his arc even stronger when we later get scenes like his conversation with Walder Frey from season 6, where Walder points out how similar their actions and motivations are (or were for Jamie). It's obvious that Jamie can see himself in Walder and he's disgusted by what he sees.
Really great video Sheev, loved it! And man... just seeing those scenes and images again... I miss when GoT was new and good. Might have to do an incomplete rewatch one day... Also the editing was really on point. The cut to the House of Black and White when saying "black and white" - loved that
And please I need another starwars review from you your my favorite starwars critic and I love your sense of humor it was your clone wars video that opened my eyes to see how much I have been cheated by starwars thank you.
I finished watching season two of House of the Dragon and I decided to watch all of Game of Thrones for the first time just last week. It is trippy how perfectly timed this video was. I was so waiting for Jaimey to have some sort of redemption arc at the end of the show, (boy was that squandered). But the one thing that remained on the back burner of my mind is Daenerys Burning Kings Landing. I already knew that was going to happen because of how much it was talked about, so that part was spoiled for me way early on before I even graduated. Throughout the whole show, I was thinking to myself, (she better have a REAL good reason for burning all of Kings Landing). I heard that season eight was downright horrible, but I at least wanted to find some sort of reason for her actions… but nope! The writers were just like- “Oh but it turns out she just snapped and all Targaryens submit to chaos!” What a fucking cheap and cliché move. Even thought season 6 & 7 are made up for the show, I still think they’re pretty good. Trust me, I went into Game of Thrones blind. I didn’t didn’t look at reviews for the show until after I got done watching it. My friend at work, who’s a Game of Thrones fanatic told me that some of the seasons are made up for the show, so I tried sniffing out which ones were. I thought only 7 & 8 were the made up ones because even though season six did feel slightly different, I thought it still had that Game of Thrones vibe you’d traditionally get from George. However, I definitely felt something different with seven because a lot more characters were surviving and not as many bad things were happening. To be honest, that’s pretty much what I based my entire assumption on for Game of Thrones, lol. But then again, I found that John Snow being resurrected felt a little like the writers not wanting to kill off their most beloved and popular character. As far as season eight goes… yeah it was a shit show, but for ME personally, I thought it was decent the first half of the season. Yeah, yeah, somethings were rushed and felt a bit forced, but I feel like the moment the Night King was killed is when the show started to become real bad. Just a reminder guys, I watched this whole show in just a couple of months, so it’s not like I had a lot of time to think deeply about characters and their actions between episodes. Watching the show for the first time I was only thinking about white walkers, and who’s gonna sit on the Iron Throne at the end of the show because that’s what the show was leading up to. I thought the battle of the white walkers at Winterfell was really cool and well made. I know that people hate season eight… But again, ME personally I thought the first half was decent. NOT GOOD, just decent. What do you guys think? I’d love to hear from you guys’ perspectives after freshly watching this show for the first time.
At the time it was crazy how many people tried to defend and justify the writing of Danys switch. It never ceases to amaze me how people will go to bat to defend rubbish. The mental gymnastics and head cannon employed to basically write the plot for the writers was insane
I mean the guy is a good warlord, but he's not popular, he's stubborn, headstrong, and has little regard for finesse in dealing with politics -- meaning it's his way or bloodshed.
@@srnabooz Stannis is based upon Emperor Tiberius, one of the best emperors of Rome. He is a great military leader, a good administrator, a learned politician and a truly just ruler. He is probably one of the best picks for the throne. He is stubborn and headstrong, but not inflexible. He listens to advise. Davos can convince him to do things the other way. And he is also pragmatic. His inpopularity is just how George sometimes fucks up things. He has his own charisma. He is intelligent and actually funny, but for reason people don't like him, even before the whole conversion to the Lord of Light thing and there is no reason for it in-universe. He was needed to be hated, so he could be the menacing underdog.
@@StalkerQtya While Stannis is my favorite character in the books, there is a reason he is not liked by many and it's because of his abrasive personality. He is way too blunt about things and doesn't temper his discourse. Like in ACOK when he meets Catelyn and one of the first things he says to a grieving woman is how he didn't like her dead husband that much. Why would you do that? lol. Just keep it to yourself. And then kind of threatens to kill Robb instead of trying to be more diplomat. He just doesn't help himself. He also has a problem with holding grudges which other characters remark on. To his credit, he is able to inspire common soldiers to fight and starve for him so there is that. But in terms of building relationships and friendships with other nobles, he is quite bad, at least in ACOK. He gets a little better at this in ADWD (see the mountain clans). That being said, he still is the one true king and, as GRRM puts it, a righteous man.
I happen to also be wrapping up A Feast for Crows again, right now. Definitely not as fun as A Storm of Swords, but I love all the Jamie moments. He’s become one of my favorite characters in fiction - but all of your points about Ned were spot on. It’s one of the lesser parts of the show, because his contradictions are more outright thrown in his face with no real response. It all tends to be more subtle and thoughtful in the books.
And I know it takes you awhile to make a video but I genuinely want to say you're my favorite Star Wars critic if that wasn't clear all ready. There's something about you,the way you talk,edit and dish out criticism that feels authentic and true unlike those others like critical drinker, nerderotic,Ryan etc You are real,based and seem like a nice guy if only a little cynical and that's what I love about you and your channel. if I had money I would be a patron but I am just a student. Anyways keep shining and making this beautiful content, love from Africa, Nigeria.
9:01, The concept of order and good contradicting each other is perhaps one of this franchise's larger themes, with it being very difficulty to be purely good or benevolent in a system that enforces order often at the expense of virtue and compassion, oftentimes opening to door for greedy and cruel individuals to ascend to power.
@@nont18411 Even if that were true, honor itself has literally nothing to do with not being "naive" or "stupid" so this really wouldn't matter i'm afraid..
A similar point is made by Davos to Stannis in the book. Stannis is all about duty and honour but that didn’t stop him joining his brothers rebellion against his king
Fan: You know they ruined Jaime and the finale Me: I'm not questioning the finale I'm denying its existence Becuase in the books Jaime abandones Ceresi to help Brienne True Alpha ❤
Indeed. And the whole Maggy the Frog prophecy, Cersei mentioning that Jaime is actually the younger twin of the two and her repeating "We were born together, we will die together" in her inner monologue quite thoroughly foreshadows that Jaime will be the one killing Cersei as part of a heroic sacrifice, as opposite to... that disgusting nonsense the show supplanted his character arc with.
As usual, a fantastic video. And i do think you need to continue with this as a series. Maybe a character analysis of other characters from GOT. Or even MCU (ex: Tony Stark) or Star Wars (ex: Obi-wan Kenobi) or any other famous complex tv/movie character. I always love a good character analysis video and you did a great job with Jaime's. Looking forward to more of these!
Omg what? WHAT?! Wait does this mean we can't reuse "That" quote anymore? Damn that fine I guess it was played out innocent or otherwise. Also yes this was fantastic Sheeve. I would love to hear your thoughts on other things you enjoy. Maybe Dr. Who?
Martin can't help but make all good and honorable men stupid and naive. That's why he can't finish his books. Not because of facism, but because he knows a good and honorable man must also acquire the wit and intelligence to beat his enemy. He can't come to terms with that
@@Thor12233 naaah. He's had, what.. 12 years since his last book? He's not interested in finishing it. 2 years between each of the first 3 books. Then......
the thing with breaking wheels and “how its beens” is that then there is no agreed upon right. its just whatever you think is, everyone’s individual whims and abilities butting up against everyone elses. without a standard, all you get is littlefinger’s chaos. Its east to break something, its much harder to actually enact an alternative. Without these kings and oaths of westross, it would be continuous war of all against all, like so many petty barbarian tribes fighting against each other even more consistently and even more harshly. Its about constructing on foundations and improving them instead of continuously ripping them apart till you have nothing at all.
I think another big theme of Martin’s story is that in conflict, everyone loses, which works well with your points here. Ned sticks to his lofty principles, and the conflict costs everyone everything. Had Ned taken the more difficult road as had Jamie, things could have been wildly different and likely better all around.
i never watched GoT nor read the books, yet i am extremely interested but don't know where to even start. it seems awfully interesting but i'm a slow reader so i'm not sure. also please continue these character essays more, they give insight on what the author actually wants to tell with the themes and characters of a story, and seeing someone like you openly state that gives me ideas on what i could do with the given examples
its not about subversion its about making a certain outcome feel warranted. its not “what if x…. but y!”, its “given this character trait or situation, what makes sense as an outcome”.
I think if Joffrey had been a rational, honorable heir who wasn't in thrall to Cersei, Ned would have had second thoughts about running to Stannis's side.
Ned definitely had a fear of Cersei, but I don't think he really knew anywhere near the extent of Joffrey's psychopathy. Pretty much all he had shown up to this point was that he was a little bitch. Ned's issue was less his own honor, and more his naive expectation that everyone else would behave honorably. It's why he confronted Cersei. He wanted to give her a chance to do the right thing, and couldn't possibly fathom her hatching her own plan to sabotage him. Renly tried to tell him and he just seemed baffled by the concept.
Varys’ answer to the riddle does not sufficiently deal with Tyrion’s answer of the sell sword. Power obviously does reside in his hands, and all power ultimately boils down to force. The king has power, ultimately, because he is a warrior aristocrat and men follow him. He commands force. If the soldiers refuse, he does not have power any longer (see Roman emperors of the third century; there’s also of course always some lag time because we do indeed abstract the naked truth of power with comforting lies). Minorities (ethnic or classes) who can effectively use force have always ruled, irrespective of where the majority believe power resides.
Also Robb let his mother get away with freeing Jamie with basically a slap on the wrist which cost Robb a lot. But was quick to kill the Karstarks and not even consider handling it in a better way.
My favorite character, I was so pissed off when Jaime took a 180 on his character arc and not caring about innocent lives when that was his most notable character choice when he saved kings landing. He went back to the one person that made him immoral
You may enjoy the content of Glidus and altshiftx, they do really thoughtful analysis of game of thrones. Also please do more stuff on shows you like, I would love a full Andor breakdown with Jolly.
14:41 "I think that's missing the Mark a little bit" and you show edmure missing that shot, you damn savage! But yeah, I agree wtih pretty much everything you say here! Jaime WAS a really good Character, up until the final 3 Episodes and especially his little talk about he never caring about the innocents, basically completely contradicting everything his character ever stood for. It really is a shame that he died down there with Cercei in the Show. I didn't deserve it.
I enjoyed the video about something you like {: honestly I was skeptical of your channel due to the negativity so if this means anything keep it up man I think its great!
Oh my fucking God, I look at the catspaw dagger I remember Arya AND the fucking prophecy being hidden in that blade according to house of the dragon and I just... I can't. Bro, I wish that dagger was just a plothook for who tf sends an assassin with a super fancy weapon like that. Holy fucking shit. That dagger is fucking lightbringer AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I could never get into his character from a storytelling perspective - it's a little too obvious that he's there to subvert our expectations, so I just couldn't find it within myself to care when he did something particularly good or bad
"Nothing about helping Robert usurp the throne from the Mad King abided by the line of royal succession" - this isn't true. The reason it's Robert who becomes king and not Jon Arryn or even Ned himself is that Robert was the grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Rhaegar's children dead, Robert was behind only Viserys and Daenerys in the line of succession
Rob's story is pretty interestingly different than the show. While the show focuses on Rob's mistake is beheading the Karstark, the book pretty harshly thrashes his choice of wife. Which was pretty much a random girl in the Westerlands. Him banging the girl made him feel guilty as the fear of making a bastard like his (presumed) half-brother Jon Snow. The hate his mother had for him and the honor his father upheld convinced Rob that the best decision to do is marry the girl. The Karstarks were already marching home without their lord so his head was up to Rob's decision. Thankfully, it upholds that idea of him killing kin and cursing his line forever from such a terrible crime. The importance of this is to highlight why Rob Stark crumbled. It wasn't because he was to honorable or selfish. He failed because he did the worst thing a character can do in this story. Seek vengeance. This theme. Stoping the cycle of violence by not seeking revenge really connects every single major character death in the books. Ned seeks vengeance for Bran's assassination attempt. Rob seeks vengeance for his father. Jon seeks vengeance for the atrocities Ramsy commits against his kin. Jamie, surprisingly, takes no vengeance. While it doesn't hold up super well with his story in the first book, after the death of Ned you start to hear of all his actions. He seeks to protect. He's willing to threaten and be morally bankrupt, but he staves off his thirst for revenge. He does not command the death of Vargo Hoat. He attempts to protect his capture. So much of his personality is devoted to doing right by other characters and finding the best possible outcome for those he cares about. He's not perfect, he just abides by the laws of the story better than many of the Stark characters.
He's called Kingslayer because he murdered King he swore to protect. He could kill pyromancer and capture the king. Since he was member of Kingsguard, killing his king was worst crime he could commit. If he captured the king and held him till dust settles after sack of kings landing, he wouldn't have such reputation. Also that way he wouldn't have to go kill his father as mad King told him to do. Jamie's action and Lannisters actions during sack of the kings landing showed Ned there are without honor because Tywin and his army came with lie of helping the Targaryens and after death of Mad King Jaime rested his arse on Iron Throne. Ned was right in his judgement. Also Mad Kng wanted him and Robert dead so they have no choice than to uprise against him but Ned nor Starks would do things that Lannisters did. And yes Stannis is rightful heir since Robert's kids are not his and if Robert found out, there wouldn't be big war. Robert if he wasn't poisoned by again dishonourable Lannisters would smash Lannisters as soon as he found out the truth. Lannisters by their actions started the war and they only won because of Renly who thought he has right to be king although as Robb says, older siblings is the heir, no one else. Also Greyjoys' dumb tactics attacking poor North instead of rich Lannisport and westerlands as Robb and Theon wanted. Still in book Lannisters are done and if Edmure wasn't glory hunger, Robb would capture Tywin and brought end the war against them
If Jaime didn’t kill the king, Aerys could continue to do anything he wanted including burning down the city and he could have Jaime killed or arrested at any point because his word is law.
@@JamesDeBall I know right, if he is still alive he could call for other guards to kill Jamie and go right back to sending his pyromancers off the blow up the city
He could incapacitated King and kill his fanatics as they come if any would. He's Kingsguard. His 1st rule is not to kill his own king. He killed him because that was easier same as Lannisters killed Elia children. They wanted to get rid of problems as soon as they could. Hindsight have nothing with this. If he is kingsguard, he knows his duties and even if he knows time is up, he still shouldn't done what he did. Real honourable Kingsguard would force King to run from the city to protect him because that's job hes doing. As Barristan Selmy said. Jaime Lannister, men best known by killing king he swore to protect. Or Blackfish in Tv show word from Kingslayer is like building on sand. Entire realm sees him as dishonourable, not just Ned.
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Personally, I love how Martin masterfully subverted the expectation of a story being finished.
My father always says that George Martin is a master of build-up but that he gas trouble with writing a payoff that will be just as good.
At this point my subversive expectation will be him finishing it. Everyone knows he won't
@@pepeepupoo It would actually blow my mind if A Dream Of Spring is released at some point.
@@Krisliet yeah, Martin may dislike Tolkien, but at least he finished his story
@@pepeepupoo he's been openly talking recently about how he worries his legacy won't stand for much more time after his passing because he fears he won't be able to finish the books. Seriously, look it up.
I believe his realisation of the value of legacy is the reason why he's been so much more triggered about HOTD than he ever was about GOT.
They did Jamie so dirty. All of his character development thrown down the drain for subversion.
They already screwed up his progression from the books after season 4.
@@TheTrueRandomGamer well thanks to facism, we will never know how it actually turns out
To be fair, that’s probably what might happen in the books too, but less rushed. So Jaime is doomed either way.
Is it subversion or just not understanding the character, not knowing what to do with his arc, and being lazy/bad at writing?
@@donovan4222 I think it was both, cause the arc he went on in the show was to ultimately let Cerci go and kill her. The showrunners however made him do a complete 180 and die with Cerci without properly writing it to make sense.
People often forget the line Ned Stark says to Jamie in the throne room when they’re talking about the mad king “you served him well, when serving was safe”. That suggests to me that Neds issue isn’t just that Jamie killed his king but that he is a snake that betrayed the king he was sworn to protect once it became clear he was on the losing side of the war. It needs to be remembered that Ned never had the context that we had about Jamies motives as the only person Jamie told about what actually happened was Brienne when Ned had already died.
Yeah, but at the same time, Ned also still knows the same about Ser Barristan; like Jaime, Ser Barristan was ALSO right there in the room when Ned's brother and father were burned, and like Jaime, Barristan conveniently didn't intervene then. Sure, Barristan didn't backstab the Mad King, but Barristan also obviously didn't object to Robert becoming his new king to serve either. Yet Ned heaps Ser Barristan with respect as a fellow warrior, while also treating Jaime with total disdain. I love Ned, but he's still a big hypocrite in this case.
@@mrreyes5004 Barristan's service and experience in the Kings guard was vastly different from Jamie.
The mad king wasn't always mad. For the first 2 decades of his rule it was actually quite peaceful and Barristan even describes him as even-tempered and fair. But in the last decade he became demented and obsessed with prophecy, dragons and fire. Barristan had pinned most of his hopes on Rhaegar and was simply trying to endure Aerys' last years as King while protecting the Royal Family he swore to serve. Barristan was also in the army fighting against Robert with Rhaegar at the Trident and was badly wounded in the fighting. By the time Barristan recovered from his wounds the rebellion was over and the royal family was all but slain.
When Jamie killed the Mad King, all of the other Kingsguard were elsewhere, and Jamie was being kept as Aerys' personal guard because they thought it would help sway Tywin to siding with the Targaryen's since his son was in the Keep. From the bits of dialogue we have it's probably safe to assume that most of the Kingsguard probably wouldn't have done what Jamie did if they had been there. Most of them remembered Aerys before the madness set in and most of them liked Rhaegar and believed in him. Hightower even chastised Jamie after Neds father and brother were executed by reminding Jamie of his oath and telling him not to judge the King for his actions in burning the two men alive.
I don't think Ned is quite being a hypocrite here. Jamie's character is hypocritical, cynical, and doesn't take his oaths too seriously up until after his hand is cut off. That is essentially his entire arc. Moving from a life of expediency and convenience to one where his word matters and his honor matters. If Jamie couldn't abide by the King's actions, it's just as dishonorable to wait for the "perfect moment" after swearing an oath. Ned's criticism is always "If you knew he was mad, then why did you swear to protect him?"
Why lie?
Because Jamie (admittedly as a boy) wanted to be a dashing knight and saw that as the easiest path to it without actually caring about what he was swearing to do and then he essentially took the easy way out as soon as it presented itself to him. He has always taken the easy way out of things. One wonders if his service to Robert had been more difficult and not just involved minor rebellions, would Jamie have upheld his oath, or would he have broken that too as soon as it got difficult?
Jamie's growth is about doing the hard things even if the outcome might be bad for him. This is the true definition of a hero, and I expect that whenever George finally releases the next book we'll see the culmination of Jamie's arc when he is brought before Lady Stoneheart. A good knight will emerge.
The difference between Jaime and Barristan at the end of the day, from Ned's perspective, is that (at the time especially) Barristan was much more fundamentally a good hearted individual, whereas Jaime was not. If Barristan killed the mad king, I think Ned would have been far more generous to him, because Ned knew Barristan to be a good man. Ned, correctly I might add, viewed Jaime as an evil man...and I believe firmly that at the time, Jaime totally was an evil man...the bath house scene and corresponding book moment are not so much a reveal as a character change...with Jaime realizing through introspection that he buried the emotions he felt about the situation, and ultimately made the declaration that he killed the mad king for the people, not for his evil dad like he told himself at night to go to sleep in a backwards Lannister pride "the people are sheep" sortof way that was at the time so deeply engrained in Jaime. The point is Ned was 100% correct, Jaime just changed, and Ned probably would have respected it in time upon seeing this change in action. In d&d terms, the lawful good paladin openly disliked for very justifiable reasons the neutral evil rogue, but didn't outright murder him because at least the rogue accidentally carried out justice on behalf of the paladin's family...but the paladin still recognized the rogue for what he was, neutral evil. The rogue, of course, through hardship and actualization, works to change his alignment and live up to the expectations of a man many agreed to be far far more good than himself.
BY WHAT RIGHT DOES THE WOLF JUDGE THE LION!
This 🥃
Season 3 Jaime-*Cries about being ordered to stand by as innocents are murdered by his insane king"
Season 8 Jaime: "To be honest, I never really much cared for them. Innocent or otherwise"
Fuck season 8
All my homies hate season 8.
@@yokesplooge2852 That’s not my Jamie Lannister that’s his cousin James Lancaster
Every step Jamie took closer to Cersei in S8 broke my heart a tiny bit.
Tbh I don't really mind it. I kind of like how he actually sticks to the woman he genuinely loves even if she's bad for him. The problem is everything else around it that has him act completely out of character
@@lokenontherange Him going back to Cersei is completely out of character. At the end of S7 he finally comes to terms with how she is too far gone on the path of revenge and power, with her refusal to help fight against the army of the dead being the final straw. So he abandons Cersei to fight for something truly honorable again. To do all that, defeat the White Walkers and find happiness with Brienne (the actual woman he ought to love genuinely), it then makes virtually no sense for him to say fuck it and go back to Cersei except for cheap shock value or because D&D had a vendetta against him.
Well people act irrationally when their loved ones are close to dying.@MrLeapFrog
@@dahannes6739 Justifying people doing questionable things that are out of character because they're 'acting irrationally' or 'not thinking straight' is a pretty nothing argument unless said character has actually gone insane. Jamie knew that Cersei needed to be stopped, it's why there are so many theories that he will be the one to kill her in the books, she's a power hungry tyrant who will burn hundreds of her own people to get what she wants. If they wanted him to go back to King's Landing, it would've been more in character if he went back to ring the bells of surrender or kill her himself and prevent innocent deaths.
@MrLeapFrog It's not though. He leaves Cersei to keep his oath. He then returns to her because he loves her. None of that is against the character that is Jaime Lannister. It's against his character to sleep with Brienne. Against his character to show no consideration for the smallfolk at all. But it's not against his character to accept and love Cersei. The only people who it doesn't make sense to are people who are too caught up in fan theories.
Sheev, you’re giving Euron way too much credit here. Everyone knows a pile of bricks killed Jaime smh
Gravity is a bitch
That wasn't Euron Greyjoy; that was Urine Greyjoy.
like if in the book he got killed by Euron while killing him in the process it would be stupid but it would be really cool at least since Euron is THE BIGGEST threat outside of the white walkers
@@DildoDaggins69Correction, Urine Yellowsadness
“I’m the cook, I’m Man who killed Jaime Lannister”-Euronsenberg
I still adore the power riddle's answer because it's essentially a more succinct version of what Tolstoy figured out in War and Peace.
You're being very unfair to Ned. No, Ned *doesn't* know that proclaiming Stannis king will lead to war. From Ned's perspective, once the truth is out everyone will fall in line except probably Tywin - and the Lannisters *by themselves* won't start a war they couldn't possibly win. Ned is flawed and he makes mistakes, but GRRM's hand is also heavily on the scales to shape the plot to the point where Ned is executed. Ned makes three mistakes - telling Arya and Sansa they're leaving, giving Cersei a warning; and trusting Littlefinger - and the last one isn't even entirely his fault. He trusts *his wife* who is the one making the mistake of telling Ned to trust Littlefinger.
Ned believes he has the City Watch on his side. Ned believes that Renly will support Stannis (people always forget that Renly doesn't make his own plans clear and declare himself king until *after* Ned is imprisoned). Ned believes seizing Cersei and Joffrey will be quick and bloodless, and that Stannis will get to King's Landing before Tywin.
Also, the 'rightness' of Ned's honour is shown much later, in his legacy. The show completely ignored this, so maybe that's colouring your take on Ned, but his honourable treatment of his bannermen in the North fosters loyalty in them that lasts long after his death. Even the Northern Mountain Clans, who are basically wildlings, respect Ned so much that they side with Stannis to save someone they believe to be Ned's daughter. The Boltons are facing collapse because Ned's leadership created a far more effective power base than Tywin could foster with his allies.
You're bang on that Jaime is the best character, though. Particularly in the books / if we ignore the mess the show became.
Something I always like to point out: multiple people warned Ned that Stannis would "break the realm" if he were king, but every single one of them was the kind of liar and schemer Stannis would've sent to the Wall and had done with. Ned was very definitely doing the right thing for the realm by supporting Stannis, despite the proclamations of, for example, Varys and Littlefinger.
lol Sheev really hates Ned
To be fair, Littlefinger actually gave Ned *smart* advice. The moment he betrayed Ned and threw his lot in with the Lannisters was done out of exasperation rather than glee.
He was *genuinely* disappointed how Ned's honor made him ignore every smart move he COULD have made and lead to things escalating the way they did.
So, ironically, if Ned had trusted Littlefinger when it mattered things would have turned out FAR better
Yeah. Ned has flaws and faults, but he is not completely wrong. I mean pretty much late into the books. It is clearly shown that Ned still holds an enduring legacy, with his entire kingdom willing to fight for him. But also along with many in the Riverlands, the Vale, and even back at the Stormlands. Even other characters throughout the books acknowledge that Ned's so called foolish honor is also his greatest strength, as he pretty much is remembered even past his death as one of the greatest men of westeros. Even the mountain clansmen of the Vale are willing to march with Stannis to Winterfell, not for Stannis' claim to the throne. But for Ned's memory and to possibly save his girl (It is Jeyne though, but they didn't knew that)
Meanwhile Tywin? He is pretty much forgotten or hated by everyone
Like pretty much none of his bannerman and vassals on the West has made no extra effort to save Cersei, Tyrion or Jaime in Kings Landing. They all pretty much just breathed a sigh of relief when they heard Tywin died
Only Kevan Lannister is some of their close family actually misses Tywin. But not the entire Westerlands and such. The West pretty much abandoned Tywin and his legacy
Eddard & Catlyn raised at least 3 Kings In The North.
- Rob
- Jon
- Sansa
+ Most likely in the books . . . Rickon
Jamie's arc is about rediscovering his nobility. When he was a child he idolized knighthood and the ones who bore the title, Barristan Selmy, Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, in fact, had Jamie been born to any noble family other than the Lannisters he would have been basically Arthur Dayne's little brother. But, between his own family's machinations and the realities of serving an unworthy and cruel king he became jaded and cruel himself. As he travels with Brienne though, he starts to remember all the things that inspired him to knighthood to begin with, all the ideals worth fighting for, worth dying for, and he begins to be that man he saw himself becoming when he was a boy.
Jamie's arc is about us realizing he was right to kill the king
“The human heart in conflict with itself” or “Love is the death of duty” are often used as ways to express the central tenant of the series; but I really liked the way you rephrased it as The worth of a character not being in how the follow a code, but in when they’re willing to break that code and why. Love how much George gets out of putting his characters outside of their comfort zones and seeing how they react to having their buttons pushed
Imagine being put in a situation where you either become a king slayer or a kinslayer, two titles that where to some worse than death. Crazy
And then having the power of will not to despair or simply kill yourself, just to keep your "honor". I think that's an important part as well. Jaime acted. He did something. He knew he was lost but at least he wanted it to mean something even if no one ever would acknowledge that.
He's called Kingslayer because he murdered King he swore to protect. He could kill pyromancer and capture the king. Since he was member of Kingsguard, killing his king was worst crime he could commit. If he captured the king and held him till dust settles after sack of kings landing, he wouldn't have such reputation. Also that way he wouldn't have to go kill his father as mad King told him to do. Jamie's action and Lannisters actions during sack of the kings landing showed Ned there are without honor because Tywin and his army came with lie of helping the Targaryens and after death of Mad King Jaime rested his arse on Iron Throne. Ned was right in his judgement. Also Mad Kng wanted him and Robert dead so they have no choice than to uprise against him but Ned nor Starks would do things that Lannisters did. And yes Stannis is rightful heir since Robert's kids are not his and if Robert found out, there wouldn't be big war. Robert if he wasn't poisoned by again dishonourable Lannisters would smash Lannisters as soon as he found out the truth. Lannisters by their actions started the war and they only won because of Renly who thought he has right to be king although as Robb says, older siblings is the heir, no one else. Also Greyjoys' dumb tactics attacking poor North instead of rich Lannisport and westerlands as Robb and Theon wanted. Still in book Lannisters are done and if Edmure wasn't glory hunger, Robb would capture Tywin and brought end the war against them
You have to remember he was a 16 or 17 year old boy who has just been ordered by his to kill his own father and who had already seen docens of men got killed by that same king, who is also about to order the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. It's understandable that his first instinct is killing the king even if you can see a possible better alternative in hindsight. Even then we can't be sure Aerys wouldn't have been able to give the order to another person if Jaime kept him alive. The person who found Jaime was Ned Stark, but another Targaryen fanatic could have come through that door and obey the king's orders. Jaime didn't have the reader's knowledge. And again, he was a terrified 17 year old.
@@AgusSkywalker Terrified 17 year old? Boy of 17 in that world is what man of 30s is in real world. He had an army in city that would protect him so no he wasn't terrified. He could incapacitated King and kill his fanatics as they come if any would. He's Kingsguard. His 1st rule is not to kill his own king. He killed him because that was easier same as Lannisters killed Elia children. They wanted to get rid of problems as soon as they could. Hindsight have nothing with this. If he is kingsguard, he knows his duties and even if he knows time is up, he still shouldn't done what he did. Real honourable Kingsguard would force King to run from the city to protect him because that's job hes doing. As Barristan Selmy said. Jaime Lannister, men best known by killing king he swore to protect. Or Blackfish in Tv show word from Kingslayer is like building on sand. Entire realm sees him as dishonourable, not just Ned.
@@michaelstark8720realistically there’s always a loophole/better way of going about things. But GRRM specifically wrote that part of the Mad King and Jaime to where Jaime only had 2 options. And which of those 2 options he would choose.
Obviously later when he’s older he is more competent in creating better solutions (when he took back Riverun) but even then he had way more time to discuss his options. The Mad King situation was literally no time to think and to just choose.
While I have never seen the show definitely a good day when Sheev drops a video
You fundamentally don't understand the feudal oaths. You swear loyalty to the king, the king swears to defend your lands and people and to rule justly. When one breaks the oath the other is invalid. It's not blind loyalty to a king.
Seconded; Martin’s understanding of the Middle Ages is also likewise superficial.
This was the crux of Robert's Rebellion. The king had broken the "social construct" of the feudal system. His son kidnapped the daughter of a Great Lord (Duke equivalent/direct vassal to the king). When the woman's family rightly came to the capital and asked for justice, they were murdered without trial.
So if even the highest lords of the land can't get justice from the royal family... then who can? And that was just the final nail in the coffin. The king was a tyrant that would not flagrantly abuse his own laws while grossly mismanaging the realm.
He was only protecting his own interests at the expense of the realm, and thus, the rebellion was justified. This is what Renly, and so many braindead fans of his, get wrong about the rebellion. Robert wasn't a representation of "might makes right," as his legitimacy was ultimately predicated on the Targaryens squandering theirs first. Remember, it wasn't just Aerys either: the crown prince had just kidnapped one of the highest-born daughters of the realm. Before that point, there was talk of a quiet coup where Aerys would be forced to step down and let his son take the throne early.
But then Rhaegar had to go and cock things up, quite literally, which destroyed the remaining shred of legitimacy the royal family had. Then, and only then, was Robert's use of force seen as a justified way to claim the throne. Had his cause really just been "fuck you, I have more swords," that would set an extremely dangerous precedent where any petty Lord can just raise an army and challenge the king.
For a historical example... see the later years of the Roman Empire. The "Crisis of the 3rd Century" saw something like 3 dozen emperors in the span of barely a century. This included a single year with three different emperors.... it was truly a mess where there was no "illusion" of power nor shred of legitimacy left in the Throne, and as such, chaos reigned. Such anarchy wouldn't have immediately resulted from Renly's actions, but it would have set a very dangerous precedent and further destabilized the throne's 'illusion of power' worse than it already was.
So yes, that is the perceived difference between Ned and Jamie. In Ned's eyes, Jamie only sided against the King when the war was already over. This is why Robert initially refused to marry Cersei as it was clear Tywin was only opportunistically betraying the king to score some last minute brownie points with the inevitable winner. In private, Tywin freely admits this and just assumed that Jamie was following his lead by betraying the king while Tywin was storming the gates.
(Although this ignores how Jamie was effectively a hostage throughout the war, as that was the reason he was specifically kept by Aerys's side. Tywin's neutrality was essentially him not wanting to risk his son's death, but at the same time unwilling to swallow his pride and help out Aerys after he humiliated Tywin repeatedly. Thus, one can only assume Tywin knowingly risked his son's life when choosing to betray Aerys. He was still being ruthlessly pragmatic, but this puts a few more wrinkles into the equation that simultaneously make Tywin look better and worse.)
@@duncanlutz3698 Then the much lauded theme of conflicting oaths is contradicted by the world-building, where the Lord-vassal bond is broken allowing for the canceling of oaths is understood for Robert but then ignored to give Jamie his drama. Which seems natural enough for Martin to do; Robert’s rebellion is the premise and historically lifted; Jamie’s arc is from Martin’s own mind.
@@xenophon5354It’s not contradicted, Jamie points out multiple times how unfair it is that some people are punished for breaking oaths more than others and how the rules aren’t consistent. Martin is aware of this and explores it. The reason people don’t see the rebellion as dishonorable is because the rebellion won, history is written by the victor. And history decided that Robert’s rebellion was justified while blaming all the ugly “dishonrable” bits on Jamie and the Lannisters. In reality, Jamie didn’t do anything worse than the others in the rebellion, but since he’s the one who stabbed the king none of that matters, he’s the scapegoat who takes the fall to appease the “honor” gods.
@@donovan4222 If Martin’s goal is to meaningfully explore Medieval oath culture then he has failed to do so. Jamie’s rejoinder is simple: Aerys violated his feudal obligation and thus nullified his oath. Ned may or may not believe him so drama can be happily maintained, but this is not the justification Jamie professes when the audience is given the revelation.
The same would be true of Ned and Rob: their rebellion can absolutely justified in a medieval context, as the king violated his feudal obligations and thus nullified them. They didn’t violate any oaths, those oaths were broken by the king.
Martin’s, and thus Jamie’s, perspective of moral concerns (innocent or otherwise lives being spared, Justice for the lords of Winterfell) conflicting with oaths is a modern one with a medieval paint job. Martin is exploring something: duty vs utilitarian moralism, but it is exploring a modern not medieval perspective.
This is the problem I’m highlighting. The story is wearing a medieval skin suit without understanding feudal culture. That’s fine, but the video, and many folks, treat these works as explorations of that old dusty morality of our past. It isn’t.
Love your stuff but a little bit of Ned defense here.
Ned and Robert didn’t rebel to rule. They rebelled cause the Mad King called for their heads as well as trying to get back Lyanna (who as far as they knew had been kidnapped by Rhaegar.)
Robert had the best claim to the throne after the Targs were overthrown as he was the oldest Baratheon and had a closer link to the Targs blood wise then anyone else.
Do I think Ned was doing the right thing to get Stannis the Mannis as king? Yes. Because Joffrey was a monster who would cause thousands of deaths no matter what. It was both the honorable and moral thing. He just trusted the wrong man. Someone his wife, had told him to trust. And had been working with him for weeks to months in finding out the truth about Joffrey.
Great video overall and I do really like Jaime but the Ned slander needs to be countered.
The show shaped people’s perception of Ned as an honorable fool way too much, while also portrayed Jaime way too positively until they chose not to. Ned and Jaime’s relationship is much more complicated than that and we shouldn’t forget that Ned cannot read Jaime’s mind like us so he saw Jaime as everyone else in this universe saw him.
@@nont18411 Indeed. Ned didn't know any of Jaime's reasoning because Jaime stupidly, stubbornly, didn't tell anyone about the wildfire caches and generally because of Jaime's reflexive antagonism. Ned arrived at King's Landing finding the city sacked by the Lannisters, Rhaegars family slaughtered by Clegane and Jaime lounging on the Iron Throne as if it was his. I'm thinking he was too preoccupied by his worries for Lyanna to investigate in detail what had happened, so he chalked Jaime's deed up as something he solely did for his father and then rushed off to the Tower of Joy. Imagine a world in which Jaime killed Aerys and had the awareness to ensure Elia's safety. Ned would have been significantly less harsh in his judgement of the guy. Or even a world where Jaime revealed the wildfire caches. Instead Jaime wallowed in a strange mixture of arrogance and self-pity, too proud to explain himself, fueling the fires of people assuming the worst of him.
@@dschehutinefer5627 To top that, when the Blackfish said that Jaime broke his oath to Catelyn by orchestrating the red wedding, Jaime’s inner monologue was something like he wanted to explain to Blackfish that he had no parts in it but somehow the words stuck in his mouth so in the end, Jaime didn’t defend himself. Maybe it’s a mixture of his Lannister pride and his guilt. He might tried to defend himself but his subconscious acknowledged that he’s also guilty and they’re right to condemn him.
But, honestly, Jaime should have told his side of the story more to make people understand his point and hate him less.
@@nont18411 This is likely because Jamie is trying to emulate Tywin. I don't remember if "A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep" is in the books or not but even if its not explicitly said its clear that Tywin believes this and the sheep are not just the peasantry. Explaining your actions can be considered to be an act of vulnerability because you are admitting that you have at the very least failed to portray yourself accurately and possibly have made a mistake and you also have to admit that other people's opinion of you matters. The latter means that if said people wished they could refuse to believe you simply to make a power play. This is why when people apologize in the midst of getting canceled it makes it worst because the type of people who spend all day on twitter looking for blood have smelt their next meal. Denying any wrongdoing or better ignoring any accusations is much better because then your political enemies don't have an interlocuter in the debate. This is of course super toxic and is only a valid strategy when the mistnuderstanding party doesn't actually care about the truth of the matter. To be fair to Jamie, that is laregely true in King's landing. Ned is likely the only one honest enough to genuinely treat him differently if he knew the truth and even then I don't think he would be able to get over the Lannister Stark rivalry, The Blackfish wouldn't care at all.
I like videos like this where you talk about things you like to watch, please make more because seeing you being optimistic warms my heart
Really good analysis. And I agree with your point that ice and fire isn’t just dark edgy realistic storytelling with no meaning or theme. It absolutely has them, and thankee for pointing that out. I really enjoyed the video
Then what is the meaning of ASOIAF?
Really enjoyed this breakdown.
Glad i could be here this early, I'm so glad sheev makes game of thrones content I love listening to his videos while I work
It was actually Ned's LACK of honor that sealed his fate. He concealed the truth of Joffrey's parantage and forged Robert's decree by writing "rightful heir" instead of "my son, Joffrey." Ned should've told Robert the truth and then bargained for the lives of the bastard children, advocating for their banishment to Casterly Rock or The Wall. Then, if Robert insisted on the children being killed, Ned could resign to preserve his honor as he did with the hit on Daenerys. Cersei would be executed and Jamie would become an outlaw with no choice but to flee Westeros or join the Night's Watch to avoid his own execution. Then Stannis would be installed as king and Ned would return to Winterfell with his family.
With Robert dead, and Tywin's only remaining legitimate heir being Tyrion, Tywin would have no reason to start a war with the Baratheons. He might even be inclined to give Tyrion a chance since he would be the only hope for the Lannister legacy.
Ned really fumbled the bag by allowing Robert to die believing that Joffrey was his legitimate son and heir.
I’m not sure it would have made a difference, because they end up completely ignoring all of Robert’s wishes anyways. Cersei tears up his final decree and captures Ned. In between the time Ned had to talk to Robert and when he died, I don’t think there was much they could do to change the public perception of Joffrey being the heir. I’m not sure things would go any differently…
@donovan4222 but if Robert found out and publicly declared his children bastards and at least put all those things into motion BEFORE his death then it would be extremely hard to pull off a mutiny.
@@advancedstupidity5459 True I guess it depends on how much Robert could get done while on his deathbed.
A good thing to remember is its virtually impossible to make a entirely "morally correct choice" when the situation and circumstances have moved so far past moral as to be unreachable. So you do the best you can
This video was a good change of pace from your usual content, I'd love to see more.
to be honest i never really cared for them, innocent or o- (i am sniped by the jolly chap)
“I never really cared about civilians, innocent or otherwise”
-James Lancaster
Jake Lannister
Jack Landscaper
Sheev, this is why i like the TV show Babylon 5 so much., it really explores morality in complex terms. One of the main characters of the show does a lot of horrible things but also a lot of it is done to benefit his own people so the show explores morality from different perspectives.
Londo and G'kar are characters worthy of an examination video in their own right.
Technically, Ned never swore an oath to Aerys. He never had a chance to, since he inherited his seat as a result of the very actions that led him to war. I'm not saying that doesn't make his view of ironclad honor any less inconsistent, but it is a fact that would have mattered to Ned and kept him from growing beyond his hidebound mindset.
I think you're one of very few creators on this platform that actually have someting new and fresh to say. I like that.
I have only passively absorbed information on GRRM's works (I think I can vaguely place Battle [X] and character arc [Y] on a timeline with decent accuracy) and viewed very little of your catalogue, but I believe this to be an inspiring essay. For all the voices crying in frustration at GoT, I'm glad I got to hear some praise for it on a scale I can recognise. Thank you, Chancellor.
I'm not a fan of GoT, but I'm here enjoying this video because it's nice to see Sheev enjoying something too. It's good to be critical of media, but it's also often better to give an example of what we think is good rather than endlessly critiquing everything else, and I can appreciate Sheev doing that. I'd love to see more shorter videos about things that are done well, as much as I enjoy the longer breakdowns of why stuff sucks.
I think GRR martin wrote it in a way that allowed that kinda killing in the beginning, but in the end you cant get away with complete tropes since ur story wouldnt exist anymore
this is nice, I like this. The long, thorough, gutting of something only really works when I personally find the source material either boring or actually bad.
I'd argue that "Good overcoming evil" at the end of the story won't mean commiting genocide on a weird-looking subspecies of human.
Martin really tipped his hands about how the white walkers aren't really evil when he called them "The Others" and had the tropes they're being demonized with overlap so much with the free folk (stealing children from their beds and such).
On an unrelated note, great video.
I think Jon will turn himself into the Night’s King to lead the white walkers and keep them away from the realm of men, which is why he got his “going north” ending.
Plus, it fits with Azor Ahai as well. Azor Ahai himself didn’t exterminate all the white walkers, only kept them at bay for 8000 years. This time, Jon, the second coming of Azor Ahai will pick up where the OG Azor Ahai left off.
Like Alliser Thorne said in the show: “I’ve fought. I’ve lost. Now I rest. But you, Lord Snow, you will have to fight these battles forever.”
Jon’s resurrection is not a blessing. It’s a curse. Now thanks to his inability to die and his strong sense of duty, he has to do this duty forever to save the mankind and might one day unleash the long night again to cleanse the greed and corruption that humankind descended into. The white walkers will never die out because they are an allegory for climate change. Human damaged the environment too much that they can’t stop it anymore, only tolerates it or keeps it at bay. This is how Jon’s story will end (or in this case, continue forever).
What? It's maybe overly simplistic to call The Others 'evil', but I don't think that means they're just misunderstood either. They represent an alien, existential threat. They're more like climate change than a faction of sapient people with beliefs and consciences. Their purpose is to represent the real threat to the world that's going ignored while humans carry on with their petty bullshit (again, I don't think I'm reaching to say they're a climate change analogy). I don't know that they need to be wiped out for the story to have a conclusive, 'good' ending but they are absolutely a threat to be stopped. The only vague outcome I'm inclined to predict is that Bran will stop them, and something in the means of stopping them as a threat will regulate Westeros' seasons - make winter and summer equal and regular.
I'd need to read more of the books, since I'm definitely stuck between deciding if the series is Nihlistic or Optimistic (if that would even be the right word). Heroics are subverted, sure, but people who do awful shit get what's coming to them.
Ned isn't contradictory or hypocritical for despising Jaime. He sees Jaime as a coward who only chose to do the right thing once he knew he could get away with it. Ned Stark's one theme is that he does what he thinks is right regardless of the risks or odds. He is a warrior.
Jaime by comparison slowly learns how to have 'moral courage': the strength to do the right thing even when it leads to his death. We see this when he stands up for Brienne and later when he charges Daenerys.
Jaime's arc is that in the beginning he sees Ned as an idiot, but as he gets older and becomes a better person he becomes more and more like Ned, taking bigger risks for the sake of what's right.
I personally believe that Jaime is written to face the wrath of the Targararyens one last time, allowing himself to be burned alive to save an innocent person (I would predict Sansa or Myrcella) to redeem himself for his cowardice in the court of the Mad King. But a man can dream
Ned does more harm trying to put Stannis on the Throne than Jamie did killing Aerys
@@wisdommanari6701 Nobody is saying that Jaime did harm by killing Aerys. Secondly Stannis was already going to claim the throne anyway. What Ned was trying to do was prevent another war by taking Cersei into custody before the Lannisters could get thousands of troops into Kings Landing.
If it wasn't for Littlefinger Stannis would have Ned holding the Cersei and her children hostage so no funny business from Tywin until Stannis could march in with an army and no war of the 5 kings. He knew there was a risk but the only mistake he made was trusting the goldcloaks.
@@wisdommanari6701only because Joffery was an evil little incest-spawn. Had Jamie and Cersei kept it in their pants, the realm would have been fine.
Regarding all the people wondering whether or not G.R.R. Martin will ever finish Game of Thrones, consider the following two points:
1. Some people think that the final season of the TV show did hit all the important plot points and story beats G.R.R. Martin plans/planned to hit and now he can't bring himself to finish it, given how many people ended up disliking it.
2. Personally, I'm more convinced that George Martin simply can't bring himself to finish the story the way he has written it so far. He has said that when he started Game of Thrones, he started with the plan to subvert everything about Lord of the Rings, but now he has arrived at the point in the story where the obvious conclusion is that "Prophecised Heroes and True Good actually do exist" and Jon Snow's eventual triumph over the Forces of Evil would justify all the horrible shit that has happened. But that's not the story Martin wants to wrtie. And so, he doesn't write it.
“How many lives have you taken, Jamie?”
“And how many have you saved?”
Jaime is so much more interesting in books. Jaimes charcter started to break when they took him to kings landing too soon, in end of season 3. Like why did he and brienne do nothing with sansa.
Excellent essay about Jaime Lannister, the most interesting character in ASOIAF. He is a commentary on a blind honor that may bring suffering and it is not an answer.
I would love hearomh your thoughts on Daenerys Targaryen and her role in this story. Even though many people believe the show's ending is her ultimate book ending, the books don't portray her as such. She is always aware of what suffering her dragons may bring if she is forced to use them and still the care for the innocent is her core personality value. It become stronger after she experienced what it was like to be a slave herself. She views small folk as slaves who deserve something better in life and ruler who wouldn't abuse them.
I think her bittersweet ending would've been taking King's Landing from Cersei but at great cost because the true Mad Queen, Cersei, blew up the city with wildfire to deny the victory. She'd become the Queen of Ashes but she'd have spent the rest of her reign to make up for the lost innocent life. So, she'd have broken the wheel at last.
I wonder if she won the throne, she'd establish some kind of council ruling to avoid another civil war but I dunno.
I think what fans deserve is that a it Tolkien-like ending where the ones who were lusting for power for their own gain, would pay the consequences for it. The ones who fight for the living like Jon and Daenerys would show that being a hero is not easy but the world needs them still.
Ahh... If we only could reset Game of Thrones to the ending of Season 6 at least and restart 2 last seasons, give it 10 episodes each and have that epic war against the Night Walkers at the end.
4 months ago, I started reading GoT again. I read all 5 books, along with The Hedge Knight, The Sworn Sword and The Mystery Knight, which I finished 2 days ago. It feels strangely empty with no Winds of Winter to pick up and read. I fear we'll never get a finished product... just an incomplete novel.
While it was interesting & entertaining the 1st few great seasons, the postmodern crap was finally defeated in my eyes at the end of s7e4 "The Spoils of War" (in the thumbnail) when i found myself genuinely being moved by Jamie's charge at Danny, & couldn't help desperately wanting him to get her -or even the dragon; to be a heroic knight like you might see in classic fantasy
Happy to hear you're making your way though the books! I did my first read-through last year and they're a true treat.
Ned hated Jamie not because he betrayed the mad king, Ned himself was a rebel so it would be an obvious hypocrisy. Ned hated Jamie because from his perspective Jamie was acting in tandem with Tywin to save his own skin.
That’s why Ned doesn’t buy it when Jamie says he was thinking about Brandon and rickon while killing the mad king. He thinks it’s just an excuse to shave off the guilt.
Jamie never told anyone the truth because he knew Edward wouldn’t have believed him.
Jamie is also trying to live by Tyrion’s motto, to embrace his flaws and wear it like armor. Unlike Tyrion however (who is blameless for his dwarfism) Jamie’s fate was entirely in his control. He did sit back and watch while the king committed his crimes. He did use honor to shield him from moral responsibility. That’s why it bothers him. That’s why he likes people like Brianne who aren’t afraid to do as their moral compass tells them to do.
@@master_of_the_fort6873 yeah it’s more that he thinks the Lannisters playing both sides out of convenience is dishonorable. With people who honorably served the Targaryens like Barristan, he respects them more than people who joined his side to save their own skin, like the Lannisters.
Jaime Lannister, the golden knight of honor
Great vid ! Would love to see more like it
Holy fuck a video about my favourite character in fiction I take it all back Sheev you're the least grifting non hack I've ever seen
Ned's actions are justified because the King broke his part of the social contract; he killed his father and brother and demanded that Jon Arryn deliver his head though he was not involved. Jaime OTOH was sworn specifically and irrevocably to the King and was the one to kill him. Ned was in open rebellion, Jaime was not.
Great video, only thing I would point out is when Jamie pushed Bran out the window, I doubt he was thinking it was the option that would lead to the best outcome for the most people, just based on him saying "the things I do for love." If anything he was explicitly thinking about himself and his relationship with Cersei, which led him to do something that can't be justified. But I think this makes his arc even stronger when we later get scenes like his conversation with Walder Frey from season 6, where Walder points out how similar their actions and motivations are (or were for Jamie). It's obvious that Jamie can see himself in Walder and he's disgusted by what he sees.
12:54 I laughed so hard at this bit. 🤣
Really great video Sheev, loved it! And man... just seeing those scenes and images again... I miss when GoT was new and good. Might have to do an incomplete rewatch one day...
Also the editing was really on point. The cut to the House of Black and White when saying "black and white" - loved that
"To belive in an ideal is to be willing to betray it."
Superior Kreia Enjoyer
And please I need another starwars review from you your my favorite starwars critic and I love your sense of humor it was your clone wars video that opened my eyes to see how much I have been cheated by starwars thank you.
He should have been the one to kill the Night King.
“Kingslayer”
From the greatest insult to his greatest achievement. It would have been perfect. 😢
I finished watching season two of House of the Dragon and I decided to watch all of Game of Thrones for the first time just last week. It is trippy how perfectly timed this video was. I was so waiting for Jaimey to have some sort of redemption arc at the end of the show, (boy was that squandered).
But the one thing that remained on the back burner of my mind is Daenerys Burning Kings Landing. I already knew that was going to happen because of how much it was talked about, so that part was spoiled for me way early on before I even graduated. Throughout the whole show, I was thinking to myself, (she better have a REAL good reason for burning all of Kings Landing).
I heard that season eight was downright horrible, but I at least wanted to find some sort of reason for her actions… but nope! The writers were just like-
“Oh but it turns out she just snapped and all Targaryens submit to chaos!”
What a fucking cheap and cliché move. Even thought season 6 & 7 are made up for the show, I still think they’re pretty good. Trust me, I went into Game of Thrones blind. I didn’t didn’t look at reviews for the show until after I got done watching it. My friend at work, who’s a Game of Thrones fanatic told me that some of the seasons are made up for the show, so I tried sniffing out which ones were. I thought only 7 & 8 were the made up ones because even though season six did feel slightly different, I thought it still had that Game of Thrones vibe you’d traditionally get from George. However, I definitely felt something different with seven because a lot more characters were surviving and not as many bad things were happening. To be honest, that’s pretty much what I based my entire assumption on for Game of Thrones, lol. But then again, I found that John Snow being resurrected felt a little like the writers not wanting to kill off their most beloved and popular character.
As far as season eight goes… yeah it was a shit show, but for ME personally, I thought it was decent the first half of the season. Yeah, yeah, somethings were rushed and felt a bit forced, but I feel like the moment the Night King was killed is when the show started to become real bad. Just a reminder guys, I watched this whole show in just a couple of months, so it’s not like I had a lot of time to think deeply about characters and their actions between episodes. Watching the show for the first time I was only thinking about white walkers, and who’s gonna sit on the Iron Throne at the end of the show because that’s what the show was leading up to. I thought the battle of the white walkers at Winterfell was really cool and well made. I know that people hate season eight… But again, ME personally I thought the first half was decent. NOT GOOD, just decent.
What do you guys think? I’d love to hear from you guys’ perspectives after freshly watching this show for the first time.
At the time it was crazy how many people tried to defend and justify the writing of Danys switch. It never ceases to amaze me how people will go to bat to defend rubbish. The mental gymnastics and head cannon employed to basically write the plot for the writers was insane
9:40 Stannis is the best fit. It's a fact.
Stannis the mannis
I mean the guy is a good warlord, but he's not popular, he's stubborn, headstrong, and has little regard for finesse in dealing with politics -- meaning it's his way or bloodshed.
@@srnabooz
Stannis is based upon Emperor Tiberius, one of the best emperors of Rome.
He is a great military leader, a good administrator, a learned politician and a truly just ruler. He is probably one of the best picks for the throne.
He is stubborn and headstrong, but not inflexible. He listens to advise. Davos can convince him to do things the other way. And he is also pragmatic.
His inpopularity is just how George sometimes fucks up things. He has his own charisma. He is intelligent and actually funny, but for reason people don't like him, even before the whole conversion to the Lord of Light thing and there is no reason for it in-universe. He was needed to be hated, so he could be the menacing underdog.
@@StalkerQtya While Stannis is my favorite character in the books, there is a reason he is not liked by many and it's because of his abrasive personality. He is way too blunt about things and doesn't temper his discourse. Like in ACOK when he meets Catelyn and one of the first things he says to a grieving woman is how he didn't like her dead husband that much. Why would you do that? lol. Just keep it to yourself. And then kind of threatens to kill Robb instead of trying to be more diplomat. He just doesn't help himself. He also has a problem with holding grudges which other characters remark on. To his credit, he is able to inspire common soldiers to fight and starve for him so there is that. But in terms of building relationships and friendships with other nobles, he is quite bad, at least in ACOK. He gets a little better at this in ADWD (see the mountain clans). That being said, he still is the one true king and, as GRRM puts it, a righteous man.
Really enjoyed this! Please do more
Good vid! 👍
Also, gotta love the Jedi Ropes Order gameplay at the end
I happen to also be wrapping up A Feast for Crows again, right now. Definitely not as fun as A Storm of Swords, but I love all the Jamie moments. He’s become one of my favorite characters in fiction - but all of your points about Ned were spot on. It’s one of the lesser parts of the show, because his contradictions are more outright thrown in his face with no real response. It all tends to be more subtle and thoughtful in the books.
And I know it takes you awhile to make a video but I genuinely want to say you're my favorite Star Wars critic if that wasn't clear all ready.
There's something about you,the way you talk,edit and dish out criticism that feels authentic and true unlike those others like critical drinker, nerderotic,Ryan etc
You are real,based and seem like a nice guy if only a little cynical and that's what I love about you and your channel. if I had money I would be a patron but I am just a student.
Anyways keep shining and making this beautiful content, love from Africa, Nigeria.
9:01, The concept of order and good contradicting each other is perhaps one of this franchise's larger themes, with it being very difficulty to be purely good or benevolent in a system that enforces order often at the expense of virtue and compassion, oftentimes opening to door for greedy and cruel individuals to ascend to power.
Calling Brienne's morals "naive" is interesting given that she.. kind of is *the* honorable knight
And being honorable = being naive and stupid in Martin’s worldview
@@nont18411 Even if that were true, honor itself has literally nothing to do with not being "naive" or "stupid" so this really wouldn't matter i'm afraid..
I hope you make more videos about things you like. I enjoy them
A similar point is made by Davos to Stannis in the book. Stannis is all about duty and honour but that didn’t stop him joining his brothers rebellion against his king
Great video! I'm about 2/3 through A Dance with Dragons and have my fingers crossed that GRRM finishing TWOW and ADOS!!
I still love Game of Thrones and still recommended to people
Fan: You know they ruined Jaime and the finale
Me: I'm not questioning the finale I'm denying its existence
Becuase in the books Jaime abandones Ceresi to help Brienne True Alpha ❤
Indeed. And the whole Maggy the Frog prophecy, Cersei mentioning that Jaime is actually the younger twin of the two and her repeating "We were born together, we will die together" in her inner monologue quite thoroughly foreshadows that Jaime will be the one killing Cersei as part of a heroic sacrifice, as opposite to... that disgusting nonsense the show supplanted his character arc with.
As usual, a fantastic video. And i do think you need to continue with this as a series. Maybe a character analysis of other characters from GOT. Or even MCU (ex: Tony Stark) or Star Wars (ex: Obi-wan Kenobi) or any other famous complex tv/movie character. I always love a good character analysis video and you did a great job with Jaime's. Looking forward to more of these!
Omg what? WHAT?! Wait does this mean we can't reuse "That" quote anymore? Damn that fine I guess it was played out innocent or otherwise.
Also yes this was fantastic Sheeve. I would love to hear your thoughts on other things you enjoy. Maybe Dr. Who?
He never cared for the oaths, honourable or otherwise.
Martin can't help but make all good and honorable men stupid and naive. That's why he can't finish his books. Not because of facism, but because he knows a good and honorable man must also acquire the wit and intelligence to beat his enemy. He can't come to terms with that
I dont think its as simple as that. I dont even think your reasoning is in top 50 of his problems
@@Thor12233 your opinion man. Why do you think he won't finish it?
@@pepeepupoo hes old and Hes tired.
@@Thor12233 naaah. He's had, what.. 12 years since his last book? He's not interested in finishing it. 2 years between each of the first 3 books. Then......
@@Thor12233 he's had plenty of time and energy to write other stuff, and he has. Just not finishing his main series
Great analysis. I get really annoyed when people start dismissing the series as a whole just because they’re seriously late/won’t finish
the thing with breaking wheels and “how its beens” is that then there is no agreed upon right. its just whatever you think is, everyone’s individual whims and abilities butting up against everyone elses. without a standard, all you get is littlefinger’s chaos.
Its east to break something, its much harder to actually enact an alternative. Without these kings and oaths of westross, it would be continuous war of all against all, like so many petty barbarian tribes fighting against each other even more consistently and even more harshly. Its about constructing on foundations and improving them instead of continuously ripping them apart till you have nothing at all.
I think another big theme of Martin’s story is that in conflict, everyone loses, which works well with your points here.
Ned sticks to his lofty principles, and the conflict costs everyone everything. Had Ned taken the more difficult road as had Jamie, things could have been wildly different and likely better all around.
i never watched GoT nor read the books, yet i am extremely interested but don't know where to even start. it seems awfully interesting but i'm a slow reader so i'm not sure. also please continue these character essays more, they give insight on what the author actually wants to tell with the themes and characters of a story, and seeing someone like you openly state that gives me ideas on what i could do with the given examples
its not about subversion its about making a certain outcome feel warranted. its not “what if x…. but y!”, its “given this character trait or situation, what makes sense as an outcome”.
Good to see a fellow AFFC enjoyer
I can't wait for you to experience A dance with dragons
I KNEW IT WAS COMING. I SAW ALL HIS GOT TWEETS AND KNEW WE’D GET ONE
Please talk about GOT more Sheev, would LOVE to hear your input
I think if Joffrey had been a rational, honorable heir who wasn't in thrall to Cersei, Ned would have had second thoughts about running to Stannis's side.
Ned definitely had a fear of Cersei, but I don't think he really knew anywhere near the extent of Joffrey's psychopathy. Pretty much all he had shown up to this point was that he was a little bitch. Ned's issue was less his own honor, and more his naive expectation that everyone else would behave honorably. It's why he confronted Cersei. He wanted to give her a chance to do the right thing, and couldn't possibly fathom her hatching her own plan to sabotage him. Renly tried to tell him and he just seemed baffled by the concept.
Jaime has Honor! He rides him to the Siege of Riverrun at the end of the books!
more vids like this, ily
Varys’ answer to the riddle does not sufficiently deal with Tyrion’s answer of the sell sword. Power obviously does reside in his hands, and all power ultimately boils down to force. The king has power, ultimately, because he is a warrior aristocrat and men follow him. He commands force. If the soldiers refuse, he does not have power any longer (see Roman emperors of the third century; there’s also of course always some lag time because we do indeed abstract the naked truth of power with comforting lies).
Minorities (ethnic or classes) who can effectively use force have always ruled, irrespective of where the majority believe power resides.
Also Robb let his mother get away with freeing Jamie with basically a slap on the wrist which cost Robb a lot. But was quick to kill the Karstarks and not even consider handling it in a better way.
My totally unbiased opinion is that Stannis would be the best king
My favorite character, I was so pissed off when Jaime took a 180 on his character arc and not caring about innocent lives when that was his most notable character choice when he saved kings landing. He went back to the one person that made him immoral
They did Prince Charming so dirty in this show.
You may enjoy the content of Glidus and altshiftx, they do really thoughtful analysis of game of thrones. Also please do more stuff on shows you like, I would love a full Andor breakdown with Jolly.
Good shit sheev
14:41 "I think that's missing the Mark a little bit" and you show edmure missing that shot, you damn savage!
But yeah, I agree wtih pretty much everything you say here!
Jaime WAS a really good Character, up until the final 3 Episodes and especially his little talk about he never caring about the innocents, basically completely contradicting everything his character ever stood for.
It really is a shame that he died down there with Cercei in the Show. I didn't deserve it.
a Suprise to be sure but a welcome one.
Your videos are so god damn solid every time. I really appreciate them.
I enjoyed the video about something you like {: honestly I was skeptical of your channel due to the negativity so if this means anything keep it up man I think its great!
I love a song of ice and fire 🗣️🗣️🗣️😊
Would love more videos about the GOT books.
Oh my fucking God, I look at the catspaw dagger I remember Arya AND the fucking prophecy being hidden in that blade according to house of the dragon and I just... I can't. Bro, I wish that dagger was just a plothook for who tf sends an assassin with a super fancy weapon like that. Holy fucking shit. That dagger is fucking lightbringer AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Would adore more thrones, hope this doesnt flop!
I'd love to see you make a video about your thoughts on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. whether its the show as a whole or a specific aspect.
I could never get into his character from a storytelling perspective - it's a little too obvious that he's there to subvert our expectations, so I just couldn't find it within myself to care when he did something particularly good or bad
Skill issue
@@wisdommanari6701 You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means
"Nothing about helping Robert usurp the throne from the Mad King abided by the line of royal succession" - this isn't true. The reason it's Robert who becomes king and not Jon Arryn or even Ned himself is that Robert was the grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Rhaegar's children dead, Robert was behind only Viserys and Daenerys in the line of succession
Loved the Video!! Im definitely down for more GoT content!^^‘
Stannis *is* the best fit to be king out of the 5 innital contenders
Rob's story is pretty interestingly different than the show. While the show focuses on Rob's mistake is beheading the Karstark, the book pretty harshly thrashes his choice of wife. Which was pretty much a random girl in the Westerlands. Him banging the girl made him feel guilty as the fear of making a bastard like his (presumed) half-brother Jon Snow. The hate his mother had for him and the honor his father upheld convinced Rob that the best decision to do is marry the girl. The Karstarks were already marching home without their lord so his head was up to Rob's decision. Thankfully, it upholds that idea of him killing kin and cursing his line forever from such a terrible crime.
The importance of this is to highlight why Rob Stark crumbled. It wasn't because he was to honorable or selfish. He failed because he did the worst thing a character can do in this story.
Seek vengeance.
This theme. Stoping the cycle of violence by not seeking revenge really connects every single major character death in the books. Ned seeks vengeance for Bran's assassination attempt. Rob seeks vengeance for his father. Jon seeks vengeance for the atrocities Ramsy commits against his kin.
Jamie, surprisingly, takes no vengeance. While it doesn't hold up super well with his story in the first book, after the death of Ned you start to hear of all his actions. He seeks to protect. He's willing to threaten and be morally bankrupt, but he staves off his thirst for revenge. He does not command the death of Vargo Hoat. He attempts to protect his capture. So much of his personality is devoted to doing right by other characters and finding the best possible outcome for those he cares about.
He's not perfect, he just abides by the laws of the story better than many of the Stark characters.
He's called Kingslayer because he murdered King he swore to protect. He could kill pyromancer and capture the king. Since he was member of Kingsguard, killing his king was worst crime he could commit. If he captured the king and held him till dust settles after sack of kings landing, he wouldn't have such reputation. Also that way he wouldn't have to go kill his father as mad King told him to do. Jamie's action and Lannisters actions during sack of the kings landing showed Ned there are without honor because Tywin and his army came with lie of helping the Targaryens and after death of Mad King Jaime rested his arse on Iron Throne. Ned was right in his judgement. Also Mad Kng wanted him and Robert dead so they have no choice than to uprise against him but Ned nor Starks would do things that Lannisters did. And yes Stannis is rightful heir since Robert's kids are not his and if Robert found out, there wouldn't be big war. Robert if he wasn't poisoned by again dishonourable Lannisters would smash Lannisters as soon as he found out the truth. Lannisters by their actions started the war and they only won because of Renly who thought he has right to be king although as Robb says, older siblings is the heir, no one else. Also Greyjoys' dumb tactics attacking poor North instead of rich Lannisport and westerlands as Robb and Theon wanted. Still in book Lannisters are done and if Edmure wasn't glory hunger, Robb would capture Tywin and brought end the war against them
If Jaime didn’t kill the king, Aerys could continue to do anything he wanted including burning down the city and he could have Jaime killed or arrested at any point because his word is law.
@@JamesDeBall I know right, if he is still alive he could call for other guards to kill Jamie and go right back to sending his pyromancers off the blow up the city
He could incapacitated King and kill his fanatics as they come if any would. He's Kingsguard. His 1st rule is not to kill his own king. He killed him because that was easier same as Lannisters killed Elia children. They wanted to get rid of problems as soon as they could. Hindsight have nothing with this. If he is kingsguard, he knows his duties and even if he knows time is up, he still shouldn't done what he did. Real honourable Kingsguard would force King to run from the city to protect him because that's job hes doing. As Barristan Selmy said. Jaime Lannister, men best known by killing king he swore to protect. Or Blackfish in Tv show word from Kingslayer is like building on sand. Entire realm sees him as dishonourable, not just Ned.