300: Mike Israetel & Doug Brignole - Physics Of Resistance Exercise
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ค. 2024
- This week we have a roundtable discussion between Doug Brignole and Mike Israetel about the physics of resistance exercise. These guys are both trying to maximise the stimulus to fatigue trade-off in our training to get the best muscle gains possible. They do however have some slight differences in opinion in regards to exercise selection, range of motion and what’s safe or not in this regard. A fantastic discussion in which be sure to stick around so that you don't miss this fruitful discussion throughout, particularly toward the end!
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
03:44 First statement of agreements and disagreements
10:15 Pec range of motion, exercise selection and intensity
29:15 Spinal compression: Deadlifts and pulls off the floor
34:36 No pec fibre involvement on incline presses?
47:04 SLDL don't cause sufficient stimulus for muscle growth
52:47 The importance of range of motion
59:31 RIsks of top end of range of motion
01:05:35 Repetition ranges when consider mechanical advantageous positions and injury risk
01:18:45 Variations and training hard
01:35:15 Summary
Thanks, please comment, like and subscribe!
COACHING: revivestronger.com/online-coa...
MEMBERSITE: revivestronger.com/team-reviv...
WEBSITE: www.revivestronger.com
MINI CUT MOVEMENT: revivestronger.com/mini-cut-m...
FACEBOOK: / revivestronger
INSTAGRAM: / revivestronger
NEWSLETTER: bit.ly/2rRONG5
__________________________________________________________________
If you want to support us via a donation, that's highly appreciated!
Patreon
• / revivestronger
Don't like Patreon, go to Paypal!
• bit.ly/2XZloJ4
__________________________________________________________________
Our Ebooks!
Ultimate Guide To Contest Prep Ebook:
• revivestronger.com/product/th...
Primer Phase Ebook:
• revivestronger.com/product/th...
__________________________________________________________________
Stay up to date with the latest research and educate yourself!
MASS (Research Review):
• goo.gl/c7FSJD
RP+ Membership:
• ob262.isrefer.com/go/plus/Ste...
JPS Mentorship
• jpseducation.mykajabi.com/a/1...
__________________________________________________________________
Books we recommend!
Muscle & Strength Pyramids
• goo.gl/S8s6tG
RP Books
• bit.ly/2vREaH0
RP + Members site
• ob262.isrefer.com/go/plus/Ste...
For more
• revivestronger.com/library/
__________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________
When you're interested in online coaching, please go visit our website and follow the application form:
www.revivestronger.com/online... - กีฬา
We heard about the tragic news about Doug's passing. Our deepest condolences to Doug's family and friends. Rest in piece Doug.
This was awesome
Regardless of Mike or Doug's views on various subjects, their discussion was done with respect and dignity. Thanks for the great video.
Thank you so much for sharing this, I agree! Thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
Stfu. What are they suppose to do cry and flip out on each other like children? Christ.
Totally agree. That was fantastic . I wish we had more of these discussions in the industry.
Ask and not attack.
REALLY looking forward to this! Thanks for setting this up Steve!
You should have dr mike on your Channel Geoffrey!
Same Here!
@@notacrew69 I'm terrified of this man's lexiconical prowess.
@@GVS i think both can learn a lot and we would love it !! Please try Geoffrey! Wishing you luck
@@GVS well my man your lexiconical prowess is superb as well. By way of using lexiconical prowess lol
Mike's level of confidence in every single debate lmao.
He’s just so nice… As he’s tearing you apart 🤣🤣 Love Dr. Mike.
A proper education and a Strong belief in that education does a Cocky little-man Make :-D
BJJ confidence right there! Control of emotions. Unlike Doug, who is all over the place. Good video.
Thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
That's what you get when you have had to gone through disputation to earn your masters and doctorate after studying the field for years, then teaching and studying the field academically, while also being on the field as an actor to have first hand experience on what you're talking about. You have to learn composure and how to articulate your ideas and thoughts accurately and on a general level, not on a personal level. And you have to have a critical stance on what you're saying if you plan to publish something relevant, which makes you somewhat confident in that you're onto something when you dare to argue for it.
This is by far the best format for advancing someone's understanding of nuanced topics that are best communicated by civil discussion between two experienced professionals rather than individual response videos where the alternative perspective can easily be misrepresented and taken out of context. Steve did a terrific job in making this productive dialogue a reality! If more discussions like this between people with different viewpoints were held in other fields, I think society as a whole would be less polarized and better informed. Much respect to Dr. Mike and Doug!
Yes, calling someone's perspective phony physics does nothing to advance the science.
@@TheCatseyepub Mike said that?
@@mmm-bi1my Kassem Hanson
@@TheCatseyepubAh, ty. Yeah, that's a shame I think. Some of Kas's comments on this vid also I don't think paint a great picture of him, but seems a smart fellow
What a comment, thanks so much for sharing this. Steve is a great host and we’re blessed with awesome guests. Thanks for the support!!
- Coach Jess
What i absolutely love about this video is for about 1.5 hours they clearly are at complete disagreement about a large amount of training BUT…. The last part where they connect and remind us that with our differences we all love the exact same thing which is weight lifting and bodybuilding and that despite disagreements we all actually come from the same community
Right? It was very nice connecting with Doug toward the end. - Dr. Mike
I’m so glad you shared this with us, thank you! Completely agreed. Thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
@@RenaissancePeriodization lol Doug doesn’t know how to incline press. I mean wtf.
@@chip2th this was the most obvious takeaway from the first 45 min
Thanks for this, great discussion - civil, respectful, informative 🙏💪
You’re very welcome, thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
RIP Doug. You were a great man. I'm praying for your friends and family.
Doug's book is truly a masterpiece! A logical approach to strength training! 🏆👍👏💪
Doug knows his stuff
What is the name of the book
The lat exercise Doug recommend has made my lats so big I have to push my arm in That's how perfect that exercise is
I'm glad that works well for you, thanks for sharing this and thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
where does he talk about it?
What exercise?
Me too
Lat pull in
One of the best physique training interviews/discussions ever.
Happy 300th!
Keep up the fantastic work! Love listening to these while training, even if I've already listened to it before 💖💖💖
That's amazing, thanks so much for the support!
- Coach Jess
Guys, GREAT STUFF! Seriously you were all top notch! Thank You!
This is an awesome debate have been waiting for this. Both extremely knowledgeable guys who have a very productive discussion rather than any ego or anything like this involved. Thanks for this.
I’m glad you think so, thank you so much for both the feedback and the support !
- Coach Jess
This is one of the best discussions on fitness. Wow. Absolutely amazing. Thank you RS
You're very welcome, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
- Coach Jess
Gratz on 300, I've been here since the low 100s and it's been a pleasure.
That's amazing to read, thanks so much for the support!
- Coach Jess
What a fantastic podcast. One of the best yet. Very good discussion by Mike and Doug
Thank you so much!
- Coach Jess
Anyone who has never been sore doing stiff legged deadlifts hasn't done stiff legged deadlifts
Hahaha, I kinda agree^^ Thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
The knowledge and teachings Doug brings is the best ever
100% agree
Thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
this was an amazing discussion thank you for providing a great forum for the discussion to occur!
Thanks for tuning in!
- Pascal
When I started benching the way doug brignole explained I finally started to feel my upperchest most + got very sore + way better pumps. Thats just my personal experience. On the other hand I do feel like training the lats like arms close to the body works lats better.
This was great discussion, definetely need more stuff like this in the industry. Good job with the podcast!
That’s awesome to hear, thanks for sharing this with us and thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
How was it that he explained it? Was it decline press
@@juansamudio1171 yeah he says decline is the best, which I agree but I dont have acces to good decline bench. But basically flaring elbows more and bringing the bar/dumbbells higher on the chest. Tho I do agree this can be worse for your shoulders with bar, but doing dumbbells feel good for me or smith machine.
@@juansamudio1171 many science based people nowdays recommend tucking arms quite a lot on bench and dumbbells. I have tried it all but I dont even get a decent pump that way. Dumbbels, smith and dumbbel/cable flys are my favorites.
@@joojotin True, I mean whatever works for you I personally love incline bench and the pump on my chest is great but I’ll definitely try decline would be a new stimulus. Thanks for the heads up!
This is how progress is made 😃 These are the things that just didn’t happen 20yrs ago in the sport. Thanks guys for spending the time!!!
Our pleasure, I'm glad you find this helpful. Thanks for the support!
- Coach Jess
Thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, props to you fellas
Thank you so much, glad you enjoyed it!
- Coach Jess
Listened to the audio podcast today. Thanks for making this happen, Steve & Pascal! Refreshing to have some civil discourse these days!
Awesome to read, thanks for sharing and thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
Awesome video! Much respect to all three gentlemen!
Thanks!
Dr. Mike is just way too intelligent when it comes to training. It’s amazing
Doug's too ..he is answering on every question of Mike perfectly!
He's only matched by Kassem Hanson.
@@tzahi12370 if by perfectly you mean editing the statements in his book everytime then sure
@@TheNietzschian YES YES YES
@Simon Palmer I've used pretty much every single one of his recommended exercises for weeks, months, and years in my training. Many of them are excellent! Unfortunately, Doug is of the opinion that ONLY his chosen exercises are excellent which I don't think is true, you know? - Dr. Mike
I get the feeling that Doug Brignole is the creative sort of person that gets a lot wrong but also winds up having a positive impact because of the gems hidden in the ideas. It fits well with Mike Israetel's approach of taking all the best ideas, ditching the bad ones, and putting them together into practical guides and workouts. Kind of a nice match-up.
Thanks for sharing this and thanks for watching :)
- Coach Jess
@Brian Z Doug's idea that we can load the muscles just as well with less weight by fiddling with our leverage is correct. But on every point Mike Israetel brought up, Mike is correct in the criticism. For an obvious example, the low-incline bench press does indeed work the upper chest.
@Brian Z a very big thing doug gets wrong is he puts too much emphasis on the contraction part of a movement however loaded stretch is very important when it comes to hypertrophy
@Brian Z also he claims dips don’t work the triceps well. dumbest thing i ever heard
@@chip2th I think what he says is that your triceps don't get that much attention doing dips relative to the effort. His argument is that you can go straight to the tricep with FAR less weight. Some people's shoulders or elbows also cannot withstand dips because even if you only use body weight it's still a strenous exercise.
A number of months ago I switched most of my training over to more of Doug's philosophy and it has helped me tremendously especially inside of element which had really stalled out due to some health issues with my hips to be able to switch over to more of a knees over toes type guy stuff my thighs are probably within 80% of what they were when I was 30 years younger and squatting over 500 lb where I don't believe I can squat 80% of 500 right now... And I'm also almost 60 years old
That's great to hear!
- Pascal
I'd rarely ever sit long enough to listen to an hour-plus video, but this was interesting. Thanks for the respectful discussion - it was good to see open-mindedness and questions being posed (though Mike never let on if he agreed with Doug's responses, I didn't think). I did find myself wishing several times that Mike had read Doug's entire book before cherry-picking some statements to ask him about.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for sharing this and thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
That was absolutely brilliant. You can see that both of these guys are extremely passionated about this stuff, and are truly open to other ideas, and looking to always learn. This is why they know so much right now.
That's awesome feedback, thanks for the support!
- Coach Jess
@@ReviveStronger No problem, that was honestly a very very good discussion. You're doing a brilliant job by the way.
Great video. Great summation.
Two extremely intelligent people. Like usual, more commonalities than disagreements. Well done 💪🏻
Absolutely! Thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
I play this when I try to sleep listening to Doug puts you in a deep sleep within 10 minutes
Awesome podcast. Thanks for bringing those guys
Thanks for listening!
- Pascal
Congratulations on 300 episodes
Thank you so much!
- Coach Jess
Classy men intelligent and passionate agreeing to disagree - great content.
I did not know this two had debated! So excited to watch this! Just subscribed to your channel.
Welcome to the party, hope you get a tonne of value from it, and thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
Awesome video! They seemed to have more in common vs what they disagree with.
Great discussion (NOT ARGUMENT). Very well done. Wish Doug answered mike’s questions a little more directly. I appreciate both standpoints, but for as much as Mike “didn’t read the whole book” Doug isn’t really listening (or comprehending) to mike’s counterpoints.
Thanks for sharing this with us and thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Really enjoyed the discussion! 👍🙏
To understand concepts from a different perspective, one has to be open minded and avoid dogma. Understanding doesn’t necessarily mean you agree, but one has to be willing to change one’s mind.
Agreed! Thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Great content as always!
Thank you so much for the support!
- Coach Jess
I'm only on the 44th minute only but honestly, despite the quotes in the book being a bir one-sided, doug brignole is making much more sense than I thoight
I was very sceptical about Doug at first but wanted to try his methods as what his book said made a lot of sense. I really wish I'd discovered it sooner to be honest. I have massive respect for Mike as well as have followed him for years. I think what I take away is the differe ce between optimal and what still works very well and would work for most people. Doug agrees a lot of other exercises are on a sliding scale of good. It isn't just black and white. It's a case of better (in terms of muscle recruitment combined with early phase loading and injury risk prevention) and worse, not right and wrong.
the man the legend VASIL
Thank you for sharing this, and thank you for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
Thanks for sharing, and watching 😊
- Coach Jess
My man vasil of the smith machine the fluff and pumper
Thanks for setting this up made for interesting viewing. Subbed.
So glad to hear this, welcome to the party!
- Coach Jess
Great conversation 👍
Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
The incline press section was quite comical 😝 Dr.Mike was nearly astonished. I did quite enjoy the ending and how gracious they both were
54, lifting since mid 20's, goal now is to stay healthy. I'm a big fan of both of these guys. I bought Doug's book and have subscribed to it's principles for exercise seletion for about 3 years now. I feel great and no injuries. I also give a lot of weight to what Mike, Brad S., Bret C., and Chris B. have to say. We're lucky to have people so passionate about fitness and a willigness to share their insights.
This is such a great comment, thank you so much for sharing that with us!
- Coach Jess
It went really well, i enjoyed it a lot!
Glad you did, thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Amazing discussion props to both parties for taking their time to do this and props to British guy for hosting and moderating with professionalism
Thanks for watching :)
- Coach Jess
I like how Mike just ask questions about very specific "claims". He basically read straight from Doug's book on spinal compression and Doug essentially admitted that he overstated it in the book. No need to argue that anymore. Doug needs to go back and edit that part of his book.
No. 😑
Time 34:00 you need to rewatch. 😑
Amen Paul
Ticky tac
Yes agree. But also a very tiny specific part of the discussion to focus on.
See it is in the differences that we can learn from each other, all whilst keeping dignity by way of civility and respect. Well done. Btw I try the single lat pull down that Doug uses. Works really well at contracting the lats!
Thanks for sharing this :)
- Coach Jess
I get uncomfortable at times when Mike is debating people. He is polite and nice but I still feel bad for the other guys.
Yup feel bad for the other guys having to deal with Mike's lack of knowledge.
Haha, that's how we grow and evolve though!
Thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
He holds back a lot lmao
A great conversation.
Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for the support!
- Coach Jess
I have Mike's book and I have Dougs book . I have read both and understand their principles.
I like both of these guys .
Taking emotion out of it I must say that Doug wins the debate handsdown .
The problem is that most of his critics have not taken the time to read and understand his message I guarantee you Dr Mike did not read his book and definitely did not try any of Dougs exercises .
Great debate and very educational.
Thankyou .
This was a great video. I’ve trained for over 35 years. What I noticed when I used to incline press was I would naturally arch my spine so that my incline was actually a modified flat bench. Almost everyone does it. If you’re back was flat on the bench during an incline it would be all front deltoid and triceps. Take a look at Mike’s demo. As Doug said “looks like you’re doing a flat bench to me.”
You’re 100
percent right, most people are actually doing a flat press due to the back arch
And this is why flat bench is a better exercise than any incline bench press.
But regardless it’s still a different degree it “looks” like a flat bench but doesn’t mean the resistance is the same I know people who always do flat bench and have a lagging upper chest and then they started inclined and they grew
Thanks for sharing this and thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
I do enjoy the push for learning or finding more efficient exercises for training, maximizing the stimulus, and minimizing the fatigue caused to joints and other muscles. I think it comes with issues in the message and a lot of beginners are majoring In the minors. Volume, intensity, frequency, overload, etc.. are far more important than exercise selection and that needs to be stated, regardless of the perfect exercises you do if the growth-promoting variables arent in place your just pissing in a big fire.
Thanks for sharing that and thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
If Doug’s argument holds up, how did people get big hamstrings before they invented machines? Back in the day, people only had free weights, and it certainly didn’t impede their hypertrophy or strength.
Thanks for sharing this and thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
As Doug stated in the video, stiff-legged deadlifts do work the hamstrings... only that not as optimally as other movements would.
Doug is only very good at marketing, but he is completely lacking in scientific knowledge. He is not only a 'nice-talker', but also a fake natty.
@@_Sam62 Greetings Brother. I suggest you read his book. Just because the majority in the fitness industry have a different perspective , doesn't mean Doug's perspective is wrong.
Awesome podcast steeve thank you
Thanks for the support!
- Coach Jess
doug brignole was everybody's dad
Yes! Clicked with the quickness
Way to go!
- Pascal
I thought that Doug was going to get eaten alive, but I think he really responded well. In fact, both guys had wonderful points and helped move this conversation forward for the rest of us
Happy to hear that you liked it!
- Pascal
I knew he wouldn't be eaten alive because at it's fundamental core, everything Doug says is perfectly logical...
The way Steve does these it's like he's a member of the audience sitting with us watching and enjoying the conversation.
He probably is enjoying and taking it all in but I know he’s also paying attention haha. Thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
He probably is enjoying and taking it all in but I know he’s also paying attention haha. Thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Holy shit! Clash of Fitness Marvel vs DC lol :) Thanks guys - just starting watching, but I already have great expectations :)
real question is who is Marvel and who is DC :))
Doug is 100% Batman lol
We all know the dark knight series is the best.
Hope you enjoyed the episode, thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
@@ReviveStronger oh yes, I definitely did :)
So, I have been following Doug for years. I starting following Mike a few months ago. They have both been very helpful in my progress. When I watched Mike's assessment of Doug's book I could tell Mike did not read Doug's book and got a lot of things wrong. It kind of made me sour on Mike.. I was so excited when I saw this.. Both made some really great points. I love the back and forth and the responses. Also you can really hear the difference between someone with a PHD and someone self taught.
Thanks for sharing this and thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
We’ll to be fair Mike probably didn’t have time to finish the entire thing
Phd is nonsense
@@ohno837 Doug’s biomechanics are all over the place now that doesn’t mean his principles are bad they definitely work and there’s some truth to it but it’s not a 1 size fits all
@@juansamudio1171 name just one way where he is incorrect
It’s so true, regardless whatever method you choose (heavy weight low reps or higher reps with less weight) there is no way around the discomfort.
There’s been times I’ve looked at a loaded bar and am scare to lift it, but on the opposite side of things…there is no way I can describe the last 6 or so reps of a 15-20 rep set to failure other than utter hell.
The discussion we’ve all been waiting for with two of the best minds in bodybuilding.
Just one. Doug.
@@rockon8174 haha seriously?
@@rockon8174 laughable
@@oabh1808 lol ok. You can’t be serious?
@@oabh1808 that was a long reply. I understand why you’re saying, but disagree. I don’t know why you said almost everyone who does some form of bodybuilding gets injured, that’s incorrect. I don’t have the paper/study right now but there was a huge meta analysis showing bodybuilding and lifting weights in general is one of the least injurious activities a person can do, when compared to almost all other recreational and professional sports. More people are injured playing sports than lifting weights. Also you are correct in saying scientists do not know why compounds cause such tremendous growth, they’re still trying to work it out. The fact is compounds do create the most growth. And in conjunction with isolation exercises people can potentiate the most muscle. Scientists aren’t sure why squats cause the best leg development, they also aren’t certain why full range of motion causes the most development. It simply does. The best bodybuilders (natural and I handed) do compounds. Are they the best because they do compounds? Or are they all simply freaks? The science is still working on it.
Would have loved for Coach Kassam to be on this roundtable too. Still going to be a banger though.
Doug refuses to have a discussion with me. But happy to cover any questions.
@@N1education As happy as you are to delete inconvenient comments 😂?
We would have liked it too!
Thanks for watching :)
- Coach Jess
@@N1education not sure why he refuses but I mean you are a beast lmao. But do you agree on Doug’s point on incline not being good for upper chest? And the loaded stretch how Doug doesn’t really agree with it being stimulative?
@@juansamudio1171 I think incline DB is a good upper chest exercise with the arms more adducted, for the stretched position. All free weight pressing is limited in terms of the short portion of the range because the pecs are not being loaded in the plane of their adduction. So Doug is partly correct in that at a certain point of flexion the upper pecs are no longer being loaded efficiently, but in the bottom position they are being loaded very efficiently, which is the position that correlates more with hypertrophy if we reduce it to that metric.
Very nice and cordial discussion! I don't see the drama everyone is seeking or inventing over nothing on TH-cam these days at all.
Agreed, thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Love these 2
Thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
I think they both did very well, they're closer to each other than they realise.
Right? Thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Lol no mike disagrees with everything, hes just trynna be nice
Doug Brignole gives the best explanation. And why not do the best exersices.
Thanks for sharing your opinion, and thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
Doug is only very good at marketing, but he is completely lacking in scientific knowledge. He is not only a 'nice-talker', but also a fake natty.
Great to see Doug here, he's helped redefine my hypertrophy for the better.
Glad to read this, thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
Let’s put Mike vs Lyle. That one would be for the record books
We had them both on together. Episode 142 and it was tense!! Not only the podcast but leading into it and the time after 😅
- Pascal
@@ReviveStronger Yeah, I’ve watched it; quite entertaining. The aftermath subsequent thereafter has been incredibly entertaining with Lyle’s response videos and Mike’s subliminals. I think Lyle got the best of Mike. Anyways, It’s very entertaining watching them throw jabs at each other and I know the Revive viewership would love to see it!
Love the debate, I love how ideas get tested through debates. Format is great, maybe some more intervention from you would be nice just an idea it seems like a free for all in there but overall love the whole idea
That’s awesome to hear, thanks for sharing!
- Coach Jess
Thank you.
You're so welcome, hope you enjoyed it!
- Coach Jess
Mikes SFR is related to Doug’s ideas of exercise efficiency with a different balance applied to the risk/reward ratio. Love hearing different ideas emerge to make us all think more about what we’re doing.
Totally different things, however there are instances of overlap. Efficiently of loading doesn’t correlate to stimulus all the time. Be careful conflating the two things.
@@N1education Conflating is combining. I like to think of them in a related way but not the same. For example if I pick a variation of tricep extensions for my training block because I get a wicked pump, easy to recover from (higher SFR) I’ll look at my options to do them (bodyweight, dbells, KB, bands, etc) and balance that decision with how my joints feel. These days barbells feel more stressful on my joints than they would have 20 years ago so I’ll pick the option that gives me the best reward for the lowest risk so I can also string together more productive workouts together more consistently. Before I had an arthritic condition and great info coming out like you all out out the only thing I’d think about was “what option allows me to use the most weight?”
Thanks for sharing this and thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
@@TheMunst conflating is combining two things into "one" which would be a mistake. However combining the ideas on top of each other as you are describing in more of a two step decision tree manner is a fine idea.
Incline BB and DB presses as well as Overhead presses have helped my upper chest development. I also understand that elbow position and scapular stability (depression/elevation) are important factors with how much the upper pecs are involved. I'm not knocking on Doug Brignole and how he's contributed to the industry, but some of the points he's made are little myopic. On the bit about stiff legged deadlifts, I would hope Doug understands that there are hamstrings that cross the hip joint and hamstrings that cross the knee joint. IF we want to talk about an exercise that works both functions (hip extension and knee extension), then let's throw the Glute Ham Raise in the mix am I right? Great video none the less
Here too ;)
I believe there is an old video somewhere where Doug states that you can replicate the desired effect of the incline bench simply by shifting your scapula on a flat bench but do not quote me on that. What you said about hamstrings complements the discussion. It is not only Doug's myopia though; why did not Mike bring that rebuttal up if it is a good one? So maybe Doug is wrong in implying that hamstrings are like other muscles. In that case people should just use the machine to take the awful spinal stretching out out of the movement and not hope to Luck out deadlifting health wise. In any case Doug alleges anecdotal evidence that leg curls are enough and whatever causes people to avoid deadlifts is good for health.
Great conversation for those who are open minded.
Doug answered Mike's questions in great details, I'm sure Mike won't move from one question to the next unless he's convinced or the answer made sense to him, his not a light weight to leave a point unanswered.
That’s not how debates work at all.
I appreciate your comment. For full transparency, I found the vast majority of Doug's answers to be HIGHLY unconvincing. I moved on once there was no more exposure of ideas to be done. I figured my job was to ask the questions that allow Doug to explain what he was saying as well as he could or as well as he liked. If you know a pretty small amount of biomechanics, you can clue in to the realization that much of what he said in the quotes and in the explanations was wrong. For example, while his book warned of glenoid dislocation for bench presses, he said in the interview that he was 1.) Not aware of a high (or perhaps any) incidence of that injury. 2.) Much more concerned about pectoral muscle or tendon rupture than dislocation (and that was not mentioned in that section) and 3.) Only worried about such injuries when the load was at around 4RM or less, which he admitted was not overly productive for bodybuilding anyway. Thus, the big question I'll ask here and did not ask on the video itself because I found it would be rude is: why include that section in the book? With all due respect of course. And the big reason I raised all the points I did was: people will read the book and take those points to heart. But if Doug retracted and/or heavily modified most of the points, we have to ask how much of the book is really full of, well, not-so-great advice? - Dr. Mike
@@RenaissancePeriodization not sure why you would come on a podcast and not fully read the book... Seems unfair.. As much as someone reading something you authored and parsed certain passages without putting it into it's proper context.
@@TheCatseyepub I did read the book! The whole thing! Also, can you give an example of where Doug's book quotes are better understood through more in-text context? Let me know! - Dr. Mike
@@RenaissancePeriodization sure... Doug has always said that exercises are not black and white, it's degrees of good and not so good. You can read where Doug says a db kickback is a poor tricep builder in comparison to a skullcrusher, but never says it won't build triceps. Doug admits to doing db deadlifts but knowingly admits that its not a great bicep femoris exercise
It's just a matter of degrees of good and not so good.
Upper chest is also a weak point for me. I did as Doug suggested and stopped doing inclines, which TBH never felt comfortable or gave a good pump. Declines and flat dumbbell have absolutely been better for my gains, pump , and comfort. Just one man's experience.
Thanks for sharing this and thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Same!! Brig 20 ftw
EXCELLENT!!!
Awesome to hear, thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Awesome to hear, thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Awesome man
Hope you enjoyed it, thanks for the support!
- Coach Jess
Best thumb nail of dr mike for sure
Right?! Thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
2 of my favs! Get the knees over toes guy and you have the trifecta
Noted, thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Great talk.
I see what Mike was doing. He was using Doug's logic against himself...but opened minded and respectful of Doug's knowledge
But I feel Mike is curious enough to try his method. Doug has real life experience and is logical. Mike is a smart meathead and wants results. Great dudes great podcast ty!❤
Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for the support!
- Coach Jess
loved it
Gymnasts have big biceps from straight arm movements primarily
I was watching this on iTunes, but it sounded far too entertaining so had to switch to TH-cam. Great decision, loved the debate !
Awesome to hear, thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
I Appreciate both mike and Doug for this ! I do believe Doug has good foundational ideas for longevity.
Thanks for sharing this and thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Awesome discussion! I’ve tried many of Doug‘s techniques and I do believe there is merit in them but sometimes I feel like the whole body does in fact need stress from lifting in a more compound way in order for it to be synergistically challenged and grow appropriately. Sometimes Doug‘s approach feels like he is dissecting individual muscles and trying to train them in a vacuum and I think there is a place for isolation but I don’t feel like it is optimal for overall growth. At least in my uneducated meat head opinion.
Thanks so much for sharing this and thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
I used to think the same but have gradually moved away from that belief over time...
Even before I discovered Doug’s work, I was doing about 70 % isolation exercises. Now, it’s about 90 %. I share his analytical approach to bodybuilding. I love focusing on what I am doing, one thing at a time - and I don’t listen to music, for instance, because that would bother me ; I even close my eyes most of the time for better sensations. Single joint exercises motivate me much more than most compound ones. For a long time, I thought that this was the main reason why my muscles were growing bigger and faster than with multijoint exercises. Since I have heard Doug Brignole, I think that it is mainly because isolation exercices are just more efficient.
Doug is only very good at marketing, but he is completely lacking in scientific knowledge. He is not only a 'nice-talker', but also a fake natty.
@@_Sam62 A "fake natty" is one who claims they don't use drugs when they do... Doug never claimed to be natural and none of the shows he entered are "natural" competitions either.
It would be nice to see you face off against him and show the world how he lacks "scientific knowledge"... sounds like you should be able to do it very easily.
Lots of folks are interested in the BEST EXERCISE but they don’t realize that the best is like 5 things that need to be varied. Imagine an alien coming down to modern day Earth and saying, “what is the BEST car?” and your like, “ugh what do you mean best?” You give him a Bugatti and he is like, “this car does not have any space to store things.” Your like, “Aww that would be a truck!” He’s like, “so truck is the best?” And your like, “you just doesn’t understand, there is no best. There’s cars that are for different uses, and there’s cars you get tired of driving and soon you’ll be wanting to drive another kind of car. So really there’s ten cars that are really great and you should use them all.” And then the alien would be like, “oh okay, I get it, so that’s the same thing with exercise.” ❤️😘Mike
False equivalent
@@rockon8174 it may be a weird analogy but I don’t believe it’s a false equivalence. It’s true that there’s no best exercise in practical application. On paper there may be but that’s different. On paper most people would say the dumbbell bench press is the best for chest. But someone cannot simply just do that exercise and that one only. It’s ‘best’ to add barbell bench, dips, flys, machine press, etc with it. Doesn’t have to be 10 different chest exercises but doing 3 certainly is superior to 1
@@douglasschrift4453 what you believe is not relevant to the fact it's a false equivalent.
@@douglasschrift4453 There are a number of optimal exercises, it's not about choosing 1 instead of 2 or 3. Barbell bench is suboptimal for the chest because of the fixed path, it can be replaced with the dumbbell variation and you can then do an incline db press or the cable version amongst a few other exercises. For hypertrophy, barbells are a poor choice - Coach Kassem, Paul Carter, Mark Carroll have all done great content about this, theory and practical.
@@rockon8174 you disagree with Mike? If are a big big fan, like I am, of Mike and Steve then You would remember Mike, himself, saying this in Episode 278 at 36:47 into the video. I love Mike’s analogies and Revive Stronger 😘
One of the interesting things about Doug Brignole and his book, it is sort of like Vince Gironda and his book. Both are groundbreaking, and both are ahead of their time. New and better ideas hit a system of old ideas. I also find it interesting how a guy with a PHD apparently did not even read the book. His loss.
RIP 🪦 Doug
The talk we’ve all wanted. Awesome~
Doug is exactly what the entire bodybuilding realm needs, but doesn’t want or deserve. Lol
Barbells are subpar for the vast majority of movements that can maximally stimulate hypertrophy, but gymbros will fight for the barbell until the day they die 😆
So you think "gymbros" appreciate the barbell for what? Some macho stuff? No reason at all? Or could it be that maybe everyone who ever trained noticed most of their progress while getting strong in the basics?
So would Mike. And me. Most people actually use shorter ROM on DB bench then close grip bench which is probably the best chest hypertrophy movement. Or perhaps a weighted deep dip.
Thanks for sharing this and thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
@@oabh1808 wrong
Completely disagree, but to be clear I'm talking mainly about natural lifters
i like dougs ideas on front shoulder raises.
Glad you took something away from this, thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
Doug made some brilliant points!
I'm glad you think so, thanks for watching!
- Coach Jess
I believe some of the things that Doug was trying to get through like for instance talking about dislocation of the shoulder while bench pressing not that that's a real thing that happens it's more of a pector that happens but it is giving an example of the grinding that occurs on your shoulders how many people do you out there know that I've been lifting more than 15 years that have effed up shoulders I am one of them caused by bench pressing or at least contributed to same with the back compression from squatting or deadlifting how many people out there know someone that hurt their back deadlifting or squatting again and one of those people I wish I had paid attention more to what I was doing while I was lifting heavier weights and perchance changed up some of my exercises and got just as good a growth with a lighter weight emphasizing more things like Sissy squats and leg extensions and flies over standard barbell bench press
This is a perfect example of why mechanistic reasoning alone is not the way to build a philosophy in any line of thinking. Our logical conclusions based on mechanism frequently don’t play out how we’d imagine they would.
Thanks for sharing this :)
And thanks for tuning in.
- Coach Jess
I completely disagree with Doug on the incline pressing but 100% agree with his stance on conventional deadlifts.
Deadlifts have a terrible risk/return profile for everyone except powerlifters.
Thanks for sharing this with us, and thanks for tuning in!
- Coach Jess
We’ll if you learn how to program them properly they can be pretty rewarding, in fact my erectors grew so much when I started doing more deadlifts and also instead of going heavy on deadlifts why not add bands to make more torque instead of adding heavier load which would make it more fatigued
In reference to 29:15, I would be curious to know whether it's the axial/compressive loading of the spine present in exercises like Squats & Deadlifts that strengthens the spine or the force created by muscles like the spinalis & iliocostalis pulling on the spinous and transverse processes of vertebrae that make the spine stronger & is there any research on that particular topic?
Because theoretically, if one could produce the same rehab/prehab effects with exercises that create tension in the musculature that support the spine without the axial load/compression component (as in exercises like back extensions, lumber extension machines, etc.) it could potentially be better for people with certain injuries or contraindications that prevent them from using heavy axial loads or potentially be better for the general population in strengthening the spine & associated musculature without the potentially detrimental effects of heavy axial compression?
Zyzz: Just shut up and eat your protein brah
@@ashraffaridharis5570 RIP Zyzz. 🙌
I can't use links but if you look in to the link between spinal strength and injury prevention, heavy axial loading is beneficial for ossification of the actual vertabrae and using a variety of exercises in different angles and deep ranges of motion would be best for the erector spinae. Years of heavy squats has been shown to improve vertabrae density but movements like flexion rows and round back good mornings are awesome for the muscles and ligaments
Thanks so much for sharing this :)
- Coach Jess
Tearing your biceps during deadlifts. Wasn't sure what he was getting at with that. It doesn't happen very often (like less than 1% of powerlifters and strength athletes). It's completely avoidable as it comes from a bad habit of flexing the arms while deadlifting instead of keeping the arms straight. If you flex your triceps while deadlifting, your biceps have to turn off so that's one way. Another factor for tearing biceps during heavy pulls is that it's usually when a mixed grip is employed and the supinated arm experiencing the injury. This can also be from a lack of shoulder mobility in the form of external rotation. Again, something that can be addressed and worked on. Just shedding some light on this small topic. Okay thnx for reading!
Thanks for writing and listening!