The teaser at the beginning made the promise of seeing you smash a brand-new $2700 billet rotor housing with a hammer, but there was no such demonstration in the video. I want my money back.
pfft ur lucky you dont have to buy Billet cams, titanium springs/retainers. especially when considering quad cam v6/8/10/12. you can easily 5k on just a built 2j cylinder head with light port/polish. now that there is actually a decent aftermarket support for core engine components it makes them a viable option for high horsepower all out builds while being relatively cost effective in that area. the only downside to a rotary in the racing world was durability at higher HP levels.
I honestly don't understand blokes like you. What do you expect your engine to do, be honest with yourself? You think it's reasonable to expect to get 2-3-4-5x more power out of stock parts? Why would you think you're entitled to that? There's absolutely no one forcing you to modify your car, no one at all. If you can't afford it, don't do it.
This part could be manufactured cheaper, simpler and stronger with the correct choice of cast iron. However, if you are looking for the weight savings too, that’s a solution. The cast iron OEM plate is brittle, however nodular cast iron (Durabar) is much stronger, thermally stable, and has vibration damping properties. Durabar 100-70-03 or 85-55-06 is a good choice for this application. Between 55ksi and 70ksi min yield, with low elongation is superior to the common 6061-T6 aluminum specification. This may also be 2024 or 7075, made an assumption. The one piece design does simplify things.
@@lawrencewalraven5137 No, if you look at the Mazda surface under a microscope you can see it has flakes forms of graphite in the matrix. Not nodular cast iron.
I know nothing about metallurgy, so this went straight over my head. I guess the 100-70-03 is some mixture specification? Or is it to do with the hardness, toughness and so on.
Aluminum is not stronger than cast iron. the problem is cast iron is less ductile so it tends to bend rather than flex/bend like aluminum would. also casting impurities and internal stresses from the casting process can cause problems. not saying that these billet aluminum end plates aren't more durable than cast iron, just pointing out that you're incorrect when you say the iron is "weaker"
precise nomenclature in tech. fields (i.e., material sciences) isn't intuitive to lay people Vernacular allows people ignorant of such precise meaning to exchange ideas based on _intuitive_ meaning ... though -- I was writing something somewhat similar -- as I wondered if the metal had been annealed from heat-cycles or just overheated -- increasing the "hardness." Which, of course, is counterintuitive bc 'hardness' sounds analogous to _durable_ -- though, obviously, the whole reason effort to avoid metals "work hardening" is bc (I believe) it becomes more brittle. I was actually a little surprised that aluminum can also be annealed. I have to think through what casting means (like a foreigner counting money) to follow the thought exactly. The video (link below) is a fav of mine ... and happens to have been remade & re-released earlier today. It covers the degree of precision required in manufacturing engine components (not rotary) ... it's a very good video. Same channel has another video on the history of the rotary engine... And overall the channel is excellent. Good! writing; better than most edu programs on TV: Not repetitive, very articulate, explains in depth. th-cam.com/video/Aw-xbs8ZWxE/w-d-xo.html Anyway, thanks for your reply - and to the video maker.
I love all of these material experts in the comments. They seem to forget key aspects of the aluminum that are actually beneficial over cast iron when it comes to thermal stress. Aluminum is a FAR superior thermal conductor compared to cast iron. Strength? 7000 series aluminum is the strongest grade of aluminum alloy on the market, and can be precipitation hardened. This stuff is used in high stress applications like aircraft frames. I wouldn't be worried about it...
A number of people have had objections to the guys in the video saying that aluminum is stronger than cast iron (not realizing that the extra bearing holes are there because it's aluminum). Cast iron is, generally speaking, stronger. ADI would probably make a much better end housing, and it's stronger per unit weight than 6061. The reason a lot of aftermarket parts are made from aluminum is that the aluminum is easily machined because it's so soft.
You realize that aircraft are actually weak as fuck right? They are built to be light and just strong enough not to fall apart in the air. Their frames crack and break and have maintenance intervals that would make people think your paranoid if you did the same for any thing on a road going vehicle.
@@oldleatherhandsfriends4053 that's very undermining, airplanes go through a lot of repairs bc of very very strict laws and regulations for planes to keep them 100% safe at all times and planes suffer way more stress then a engine would usually.
I love that this part has a replaceable iron part that is similar to a piston engine sleeve. An RX-7TT tends to need frequent rebuilds, so this makes perfect sense. Although big diesels tend to go a long time between rebuilds, they have swappable cylinder liners because the manufacturer knows the engine will get rebuilt more than once. 9:00 Iron engine parts are weldable, but it takes a great deal of skill and time. That is why it typically is only used where rebuildable cores are almost non-existent.
The "iron part" is not the rotary "equivalent" of a piston engine cylinder bore. The "aluminum part" it's removable from is. Know what piston engines have aluminum cylinder bores? The "disposable" ones you can't "rebuild" as "affordably" as you can replace the entire engine or "top end" from the crankcase up.
@@murman229 "mighty LS"?? 🤣🤣🤣 Forget "swept volume", actual displacement vs working displacement in a rotary an LS2 in Rob Dahm's RX7 would need to make 2600hp to be just as efficient as his current 20b... How long would that LS hang together 🤣. No water jacket's on meth and needs rebuild between each run down the quarter? lmfao.. Antiquated dinosaur LS is probably the least efficient V8 on the market with the only trump cards being it's capacity and size. Fuck outta here with that pushrod 2 valve bullshit..
@@DStead2239 Hehe. 😝 I have no horse in this race. It is purely entertainment. I did notice how the LS subject became a "dirty word". To be completely honest, and here comes the onslaught, internal combustion engines as a whole are quickly going the way of the dinosaur. You have to admit cars with a fire-breathing dinojuice-fueled precariously-flailing internal combustion contraption will draw the human imagination in. Impossible to match with the clinical feel of machines thrust about using motors of the angry pixie variety. 😀 great times to be alive nevertheless. 🍻
I've always been nervous about using an engine stand on these motors. I've seen irons crack and I could only come up with it spending too much time on the stand. Glad to see a solution that will also help with the weight.
Lets be very clear, billet aluminum is not stronger or more resistant than iron. It can and does warp and is susceptible to stresses like anything else. Cast blocks ect crack, thats their downfall and they are heavier. They also rust. Billet gear is used for race builds they are not practical for road use and longevity for 100k + applications and daily use.
@@RedRampageOSRS Probably due to aluminum being a lot softer than iron. No experience myself with billet aluminum, but aluminum is pretty soft. However, this application seems to be set up so iron takes the wear, so these plates might be useful, even in street engines. Just might want to stock up on the iron replacement plates in case the company decides to go out of business.
@@Antonemachine Take care of it, keep it lubricated, and don't push it too hard and it will last longer than most people suspect before needing a rebuild. Unlike your typical engine, a rotary can be rebuilt rather quickly.
I was actually thinking of buying a Mazda RX8 since they are so cheap but no way after watching these videos. Thanks for saving me thousands of dollars.
dont listen to that guy about doing ls swaps. you'll spend 3 times the amount of money to do an ls swap right. and if you know how to go about getting a new engine for an rx8 it's really not that bad.
I had the same thought, a RX8 can be had for $500 usually because of some engine problem. But then I found 1) The Renesis engine is best left stock actually and throw it in the corner of your garage. Make the later revisions to your engine if you haven't bought the last of the RX8's, it will mean better reliability. 2) REW or 3 rotor swaps are not emissions legal in California. I can find a way around that but then it's expensive to do a 3 rotor swap and then you run into transmission problems. If I were to do one, it would be a REW 2 Rotor (13b) with a big single and T56 transmission, right at 450-500 hp. Not a world beater but would be fairly fast in it's own right.
These parts are primarily designed for Motorsport applications for engine producing over 1000Hp. So not really anything you would need to worry about for a RX-8
What about heat deformation of aluminium compared to steel? Aluminium has a coef of dilatation approx 2 times the coef of steel, don't you think this can be a problem in super hot engines like the rotaries?
Cast iron is good for static charge. It's fragile because of high percentage of carbon (comparing to steel). Like any other material, it has advantages and disadvantages. Thank you for this video!
Why does the ally in the exhaust port not melt, with the high-temp exhaust? I note that Rotron use inconel exhaust pipes, because of high wankel exhaust temperatures. R
You have made a pretty broad statement saying Aluminum is stronger than cast iron. It cant be to bad as there are plenty of engines getting around with cast iron cranks. Aluminum cranks i would say never twice. The rotor chamber end plates on the Aluminum example has steel inserts? So they are secured against end float with a LH/RH threaded bush . Is that all no other locking? The only concern really is the different thermal expansion rates as it is all sandwiched together. I'm thinking end float of the rotors being changed at different temps, water leaks internally. A scratch in the dirt calculation shows Aluminum expands by about 1/3 more than steel at a given temp. About 15~20 years ago the CSIRO created an Aluminum matrix with Silicone Carbide by combining the powders in a ball mill then melting it into a solid. . The stuff was hard and strong enough to make brake rotors out off. It had far better thermal properties than steel but was difficult to machine and tap. This material would take a good ground finish, not need hardening and could be cast the same way as high silicone aluminum (wheels) .
totally agreed, the thing here is equal grain orientation, easy to proceed with thermal treatment You can give to a big block of metal, and them machine it
@ChrisHallett83 Somewhat of a gross generalization. You can create very hard and brittle aluminum. You can create very ductile and durable cast iron. All in the formulation and heat treat.
That isn't broad you took it as being broad. Rotary engines we never designed to withstand 800-900-1000 hp which is why racing teams who NEED reliability have moved to billet engines. Normal drivers have no need for that much power especially if you NEVER compete with it. It's just a waste of money to say you got X amount of power but never use it and don't know how to use it either. Keep your iron based 2 rotor car but don't expect much reliability beyond 500 hp, which is plenty of power for an FD/FC/RX2 whatever.
@@dj4monie Nah, he's right. It is a broad statement. Some aluminum is stronger than some cast iron. And the opposite can also be true. Nobody is disputing the fact that high horsepower engines need stronger parts. But the statement that aluminum is stronger than cast iron is simply not universally true.
Interesting. What makes you say that? Where can I find the Gerber file? Or do you mean that somebody has a Cosmo 13B end housing CAD file out there somewhere?
While the billet part is a beaut, and I wish I could afford them, to be very real: 1. The reason for all those bolts is because it is aluminum rather than Iron and it simply needs more bolts.. aluminum deflects a LOT more than iron around that circumference. 2. Regarding your comments on strength, an Iron part is (without question) stronger than an identically dimensioned aluminum part. - The key here seems to be rather that: 1. the aluminum part is not as stiff (e.g.: it can bend more than its iron equivalent, meaning it will take equivalent shock loads without cracking) and 2. it is easier (and more cost effective) to bolster the dowel loading area with more (shock resistant aluminum) material in the billet part without exacting a weight/mass penalty (i.e.: rather than a casting, it is less work/cost to "add material" with billet simply by not removing material where it is not impinging upon some other dimension, since machining is an extractive process). Also, it should be said that production restrictions/requirements are vastly different than custom parts... in Production, a few pennies of savings in one area may save the whole production line.. or enable some other (completely unrelated to the specific part) element to be incorporated (into the car, as a whole). The blissful disregard the aftermarket gets to wield, compared to the constraints of the factory, is wonderfully non-compromising in functionality (at the cost of...well, cost). :-) None the less, you guys do a great job of explaining and detailing all the ins and outs of these engines. THANK YOU for keeping the dream alive :-)))
i mean its not gonna break as easy cast iron shatters its not that its weak it just doesn't flex but aluminum accumulates fatigue and will fail eventually anyways regardless of the stress on it
*GREAT explanations. Robust, DURABLE parts don't create power* *But they do ... enable power you can create ... to be created reliably* *What good is being temporarily 'first' provide if you can't finish the race..?* *Curious: Were the CAST plate BRAND NEW ... would it still be that brittle..?* *Did heating cycles ..? induce a change in material properties (annealing / work hardened) ..?* *If the latter, can aluminum undergo a similar change (annealing I believe) ..?*
12:55 Jordo and Broomy. 🤣😂 I'm dying from that boys, that was hilarious!! 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂 Holesaws and JB Weld FTW!! 😎😎😎 That split plate though, what a shame. That bridgeport looks huge and beautifully ported too. 😖
I believe that the Racing Beat aluminum 13B end housing is probably a better way to go than the Billet Pro. It's actually a cast aluminum part with a flame sprayed face - the flame spray is much harder and, because it's ceramic, reflects some of the heat back into the combustion chamber.
@@fullboost people don't use the because you don't offer it ;). I'd prefer to keep obd2 and stock ecu, im, throttle body. You yourself said it's for reliabilityvrather than power.
So technically you can replace the plate with pre cut bridge port plates etc? Also why bother with the normal intake ports when going billet instead of just going full PP from the get go?
That bridge port on the cracked block is so skinny on the bridge, wouldn't have done the corner seals any favours, impressive that it split the whole housing like that !
I owned a Mazda RX-8 for nine years. It was a cool car, but I eventually got sick of it. The two things that I got most sick of were the exhaust noise and the fuel economy. Yeah, it's a sports car, who cares about fuel economy, right? But when a piston engine car can make the same power with greater reliability and 50% better fuel economy...all I can say is my enthusiasm for rotary engines only extends so far.
when someone makes a billet rotor or rotor housing ill be impressed. Problem with rotories is your hampered by a lot of factory parts still needing to be used. I'm no fanboi but i do like rotories for what they and the results people have gotten out of them is impressive
So true guys with the billet stuff i caught my 626 on fire when the front plate decided to crack on 30psi by mistake but fuck it went hard 5th gear wheel spinning. great watch as usual thanks
An important fact to remember when comparing the materials is that aluminium is far less stiff than cast iron and steels. Strength is not the only concern
And "stiff" and "stiffness" are not "engineering terms" applicable to generic, random and unspecified "aluminum" or "cast iron" or "steels". Aluminum is also "industry standard" for all pistons in all "modern" spark-ignition and most compression-ignition "high compression" piston engines regardless of "performance level" and fuel type with even heavy-duty "articulated" diesel pistons having aluminum skirts with steel crowns. All of them in engines that aren't "disposable" run in cast-iron cylinder blocks or cylinder sleeves and are installed on forged steel connecting rods with tool steel wrist pins. So obviously "aluminum" whether cast, forged or hypereutectic is plenty "stiff" for piston engines.
Aluminium has poor wear characteristics compared to cast iron and is NOT stronger, the demonstration shows the brittle characteristics of iron, which is also the reason they crack. One of the problems a rotary has, is two different heat zones on the same plane, cast iron handles temperature and wear extremely well. When rebuilding a rotary you should always check the iron plate hasn't warped, so how they solved this for billet, I'm not sure. In saying this, the wear wouldn't be a problem if you're pulling the engine apart frequently, or are doing some treatment method not mentioned in the video. Hopefully someone is working on a ceramic insert or even chrome plating like the housings (no apex chatter to worry about).
@@thitran2098 Can't understand you Tran. Breaking off a thin piece of cast iron material doesn't prove one is better than the other, did they do the same thing on the billet plate? No. Even if they did, what does that prove? Ceramics are harder than steel but try hitting your dinner plate with a hammer and see what happens. The only real advantage I can see to using billet is making it "beefier" around damage prone areas (which studding an engine fixes anyway), porting and obviously weight. Again, did they address wear or surface hardness? How about the manufacturer answers this question..
Nothing wrong with billet parts if you need them. As they said is for reliability if you want reasonable power over 500hp ect. In the long run would be cheaper instead replacing parts blocks ect.
Have you priced out replacing iron and rotors? It's only a little bit more to go billet over money and TIME especially spent constant pushing the envelope. The problem is the average enthusiast can't do both. So if you have an older non-Turbo car it would be hard to justify the additional cost. Or you can choose to keep the power level within limits of the OE hardware and focus more on working on lap times or reducing 60 ft or 330 times at the strip.
@@dj4monie I'm on about if you just keep replacing parts constantly as I said in the long run it would be cheaper so it would be worth to take that extra bit of time and save up a little bit more instead of doing things cheaper and then 6 months time spend the same amount of money again. Fair enough for the older models that aren't looking for much power and are doing the old cars and carby set ups. As I said I was on about people who are wanting more power and wanting the reliability over 500 so on so forth.
Nice! But really it's a performance part. Even in the world of V8s aluminum cylinder heads mean cooler temps and the ability to run much higher compression than stock cast iron heads. I'd compair them to a set of aluminum cylinder heads Not a billet crankshaft. You can get a billet excentric shaft even a 3 piece in case you'd rather run roller bearings in stead of big Babette bearings just saying. Hello 15k rpm
Mazda has improved the GM Wankel quite a bit. GM gave up the Wankel because of a few major issues they saw, sealing and fuel consumption were the main reasons. I think if the tunners found a way to make them compete with an LS in terms of reliability and fuel mileage, then you truly would have the holy grail of HP in your hands due to the power/weight ratio and size of those rotary's.
GM Wankel??? Felix Wankel developed the engine while he was a employee at NSU. GM was just one of many that bought a license to make the engine.Mazda (who also bought a license) improved the engine to something far more usable than NSU themselves or any other license owners managed to do. GM improved nothing, they just gave up when they discovered that they had bought a license to something that was not ready to use.
That billet steal insert should be a ceramic insert for longevity and while there all wear surfaces should and can be ceramic but I suspect no one will do that . Can you imagine longevity then and cooling issues would almost be not worth worrying about again
Sealing can be an issue thou. Look, this kind of stuff has been done wirh piston engines before. Even using ceramic coatings on pistons helps, but people tend to shy away from coating combustion chambers because it makes it harder to hear detonation...
Doesn't cast iron have a more lubracating effect on the rotor/piston. Wouldn't this aluminium sideplate just make the engine even more unreliable. There is a reason why aluminium piston engines have cast iron inserts in the cylinders.
Imagine the delivery guy "hey mate, here’s your brake discs." "Nah mate, that’s my engine block"
😂😂😂😂💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼👍🏻
Does it have oil in jection????
The teaser at the beginning made the promise of seeing you smash a brand-new $2700 billet rotor housing with a hammer, but there was no such demonstration in the video. I want my money back.
post-click bait
@apache tyson: Yeah... 😕
Just when sinking all your money into the rotary game couldnt be easier they up the stakes...
pfft ur lucky you dont have to buy Billet cams, titanium springs/retainers. especially when considering quad cam v6/8/10/12. you can easily 5k on just a built 2j cylinder head with light port/polish. now that there is actually a decent aftermarket support for core engine components it makes them a viable option for high horsepower all out builds while being relatively cost effective in that area. the only downside to a rotary in the racing world was durability at higher HP levels.
I honestly don't understand blokes like you. What do you expect your engine to do, be honest with yourself? You think it's reasonable to expect to get 2-3-4-5x more power out of stock parts? Why would you think you're entitled to that? There's absolutely no one forcing you to modify your car, no one at all. If you can't afford it, don't do it.
I love you guys so much, keeping the rotary engine alive and making it better!
This part could be manufactured cheaper, simpler and stronger with the correct choice of cast iron. However, if you are looking for the weight savings too, that’s a solution. The cast iron OEM plate is brittle, however nodular cast iron (Durabar) is much stronger, thermally stable, and has vibration damping properties. Durabar 100-70-03 or 85-55-06 is a good choice for this application. Between 55ksi and 70ksi min yield, with low elongation is superior to the common 6061-T6 aluminum specification. This may also be 2024 or 7075, made an assumption.
The one piece design does simplify things.
fukin super nerd lol wow you hurt me brains
You don’t think that the stock plate would be a nodular iron?
@@lawrencewalraven5137 No, if you look at the Mazda surface under a microscope you can see it has flakes forms of graphite in the matrix. Not nodular cast iron.
Adam Laycock interesting! Thanks for the input.
I know nothing about metallurgy, so this went straight over my head. I guess the 100-70-03 is some mixture specification? Or is it to do with the hardness, toughness and so on.
Aluminum is not stronger than cast iron. the problem is cast iron is less ductile so it tends to bend rather than flex/bend like aluminum would. also casting impurities and internal stresses from the casting process can cause problems. not saying that these billet aluminum end plates aren't more durable than cast iron, just pointing out that you're incorrect when you say the iron is "weaker"
Yes thank you we know that. 👍
precise nomenclature in tech. fields (i.e., material sciences) isn't intuitive to lay people
Vernacular allows people ignorant of such precise meaning to exchange ideas based on _intuitive_ meaning ... though -- I was writing something somewhat similar -- as I wondered if the metal had been annealed from heat-cycles or just overheated -- increasing the "hardness."
Which, of course, is counterintuitive bc 'hardness' sounds analogous to _durable_ -- though, obviously, the whole reason effort to avoid metals "work hardening" is bc (I believe) it becomes more brittle.
I was actually a little surprised that aluminum can also be annealed.
I have to think through what casting means (like a foreigner counting money) to follow the thought exactly.
The video (link below) is a fav of mine ... and happens to have been remade & re-released earlier today. It covers the degree of precision required in manufacturing engine components (not rotary) ... it's a very good video. Same channel has another video on the history of the rotary engine... And overall the channel is excellent. Good! writing; better than most edu programs on TV: Not repetitive, very articulate, explains in depth.
th-cam.com/video/Aw-xbs8ZWxE/w-d-xo.html
Anyway, thanks for your reply - and to the video maker.
Rob dahm wants to know your location.
I love all of these material experts in the comments. They seem to forget key aspects of the aluminum that are actually beneficial over cast iron when it comes to thermal stress. Aluminum is a FAR superior thermal conductor compared to cast iron. Strength? 7000 series aluminum is the strongest grade of aluminum alloy on the market, and can be precipitation hardened. This stuff is used in high stress applications like aircraft frames. I wouldn't be worried about it...
aluminum accumulates fatigue even small amounts of stress eventually causes failure even aircraft eventually fracture and have to be replaced
@@TWEAKLET which is ductile fatigue, a much different stress than these frames are going to encounter.
A number of people have had objections to the guys in the video saying that aluminum is stronger than cast iron (not realizing that the extra bearing holes are there because it's aluminum). Cast iron is, generally speaking, stronger. ADI would probably make a much better end housing, and it's stronger per unit weight than 6061. The reason a lot of aftermarket parts are made from aluminum is that the aluminum is easily machined because it's so soft.
You realize that aircraft are actually weak as fuck right? They are built to be light and just strong enough not to fall apart in the air. Their frames crack and break and have maintenance intervals that would make people think your paranoid if you did the same for any thing on a road going vehicle.
@@oldleatherhandsfriends4053 that's very undermining, airplanes go through a lot of repairs bc of very very strict laws and regulations for planes to keep them 100% safe at all times and planes suffer way more stress then a engine would usually.
I love that this part has a replaceable iron part that is similar to a piston engine sleeve. An RX-7TT tends to need frequent rebuilds, so this makes perfect sense. Although big diesels tend to go a long time between rebuilds, they have swappable cylinder liners because the manufacturer knows the engine will get rebuilt more than once.
9:00 Iron engine parts are weldable, but it takes a great deal of skill and time. That is why it typically is only used where rebuildable cores are almost non-existent.
The "iron part" is not the rotary "equivalent" of a piston engine cylinder bore. The "aluminum part" it's removable from is. Know what piston engines have aluminum cylinder bores? The "disposable" ones you can't "rebuild" as "affordably" as you can replace the entire engine or "top end" from the crankcase up.
paging Rob Dahm....
He'd find a way to blow it up. 😎
I hear he moved up to bigger and better things. The mighty "LS"
@@murman229 Nah, he's shoving the 20B in the C5. 😈
@@murman229 "mighty LS"?? 🤣🤣🤣
Forget "swept volume", actual displacement vs working displacement in a rotary an LS2 in Rob Dahm's RX7 would need to make 2600hp to be just as efficient as his current 20b...
How long would that LS hang together 🤣. No water jacket's on meth and needs rebuild between each run down the quarter? lmfao..
Antiquated dinosaur LS is probably the least efficient V8 on the market with the only trump cards being it's capacity and size.
Fuck outta here with that pushrod 2 valve bullshit..
@@DStead2239
Hehe. 😝 I have no horse in this race. It is purely entertainment. I did notice how the LS subject became a "dirty word". To be completely honest, and here comes the onslaught, internal combustion engines as a whole are quickly going the way of the dinosaur. You have to admit cars with a fire-breathing dinojuice-fueled precariously-flailing internal combustion contraption will draw the human imagination in. Impossible to match with the clinical feel of machines thrust about using motors of the angry pixie variety. 😀 great times to be alive nevertheless. 🍻
#BILLETTHEWORLD 😁
Fullboost are u guys planning to put billet 13b for ur red car
CAREFUL the Ls boys aren't going to be happy
@Ron F what year cosmo ? Also did u buy it brand new ?
yes brand new 13B cosmo front plate jdm-planet.com/product/genuine-mazda-cosmo-13b-front-side-housing-plate-19901995-oem/
@@jmoore9806 why would the LS guys care? You can buy billet LS blocks, cyl heads and cranks too... I don't get that comment
Be good to see a comparison with Billet Pro, Billet by Pac , Billet Boss and Billet inc.
Be good to have a million dollarydoo's.. but do we all?
Mazda_Media We would be happy to put up the Billet Pro plates for independent compassion reviews
Billet by Pac! Is the way to go
That’s SICK!!!! Keep the rotary alive!!! Thank you
Thanks Fullboost keep on pumping these vids!
Rotary parts are so compact, why not just forge everything? :o
That would be stronger... no doubt... the parts are so simple...
or combine the iron with a housing
Same goes for the boxer 4 engines
I've always been nervous about using an engine stand on these motors. I've seen irons crack and I could only come up with it spending too much time on the stand. Glad to see a solution that will also help with the weight.
Lets be very clear, billet aluminum is not stronger or more resistant than iron.
It can and does warp and is susceptible to stresses like anything else.
Cast blocks ect crack, thats their downfall and they are heavier.
They also rust.
Billet gear is used for race builds they are not practical for road use and longevity for 100k + applications and daily use.
aluminum has better cooling properties as well.
how do you figure that its not suitable for daily driving?
@@RedRampageOSRS Probably due to aluminum being a lot softer than iron. No experience myself with billet aluminum, but aluminum is pretty soft. However, this application seems to be set up so iron takes the wear, so these plates might be useful, even in street engines. Just might want to stock up on the iron replacement plates in case the company decides to go out of business.
Man.. No rotary is practical for longevity 😁
@@Antonemachine Take care of it, keep it lubricated, and don't push it too hard and it will last longer than most people suspect before needing a rebuild. Unlike your typical engine, a rotary can be rebuilt rather quickly.
That's not what the aluminium is going to be stressed with in an engine tho?
Another good video, you are killing me sliding that virgin aluminum end plate across that crappy steel topped bench, who doe,s that ?
I was actually thinking of buying a Mazda RX8 since they are so cheap but no way after watching these videos. Thanks for saving me thousands of dollars.
Buy it and drop a LS motor as rotary engine is really expensive
dont listen to that guy about doing ls swaps. you'll spend 3 times the amount of money to do an ls swap right. and if you know how to go about getting a new engine for an rx8 it's really not that bad.
I had the same thought, a RX8 can be had for $500 usually because of some engine problem. But then I found 1) The Renesis engine is best left stock actually and throw it in the corner of your garage. Make the later revisions to your engine if you haven't bought the last of the RX8's, it will mean better reliability. 2) REW or 3 rotor swaps are not emissions legal in California. I can find a way around that but then it's expensive to do a 3 rotor swap and then you run into transmission problems. If I were to do one, it would be a REW 2 Rotor (13b) with a big single and T56 transmission, right at 450-500 hp. Not a world beater but would be fairly fast in it's own right.
These parts are primarily designed for Motorsport applications for engine producing over 1000Hp. So not really anything you would need to worry about for a RX-8
Avoid the 8... get a 7
Dear God! “50+ pounds of boost” ! Insane power levels!
What about heat deformation of aluminium compared to steel? Aluminium has a coef of dilatation approx 2 times the coef of steel, don't you think this can be a problem in super hot engines like the rotaries?
Cast iron is good for static charge. It's fragile because of high percentage of carbon (comparing to steel). Like any other material, it has advantages and disadvantages. Thank you for this video!
Question. How many miles can the the average Billet Rotary FD take on a daily driven RX7 before the engine goes out?
Why does the ally in the exhaust port not melt, with the high-temp exhaust?
I note that Rotron use inconel exhaust pipes, because of high wankel exhaust temperatures.
R
You have made a pretty broad statement saying Aluminum is stronger than cast iron. It cant be to bad as there are plenty of engines getting around with cast iron cranks. Aluminum cranks i would say never twice.
The rotor chamber end plates on the Aluminum example has steel inserts? So they are secured against end float with a LH/RH threaded bush . Is that all no other locking? The only concern really is the different thermal expansion rates as it is all sandwiched together. I'm thinking end float of the rotors being changed at different temps, water leaks internally. A scratch in the dirt calculation shows Aluminum expands by about 1/3 more than steel at a given temp.
About 15~20 years ago the CSIRO created an Aluminum matrix with Silicone Carbide by combining the powders in a ball mill then melting it into a solid. . The stuff was hard and strong enough to make brake rotors out off. It had far better thermal properties than steel but was difficult to machine and tap. This material would take a good ground finish, not need hardening and could be cast the same way as high silicone aluminum (wheels) .
totally agreed, the thing here is equal grain orientation, easy to proceed with thermal treatment You can give to a big block of metal, and them machine it
@ChrisHallett83 Somewhat of a gross generalization. You can create very hard and brittle aluminum. You can create very ductile and durable cast iron. All in the formulation and heat treat.
That isn't broad you took it as being broad. Rotary engines we never designed to withstand 800-900-1000 hp which is why racing teams who NEED reliability have moved to billet engines. Normal drivers have no need for that much power especially if you NEVER compete with it. It's just a waste of money to say you got X amount of power but never use it and don't know how to use it either. Keep your iron based 2 rotor car but don't expect much reliability beyond 500 hp, which is plenty of power for an FD/FC/RX2 whatever.
@@dj4monie Nah, he's right. It is a broad statement. Some aluminum is stronger than some cast iron. And the opposite can also be true. Nobody is disputing the fact that high horsepower engines need stronger parts. But the statement that aluminum is stronger than cast iron is simply not universally true.
Not trying to be nit picky but when i hear of how strong Titanium is and its on a par with may be mild steel at it's best.
*Do they Forge the Aluminum before milling the Billet..?*
What about rotars ? Are people just using rx8 rotars or do billet make them now too ?
Cheers.
Are these the equivalent of a solid no dry drag race only block?
wew didnt expect those feels. rip rich piana
Sorry I don't hardly know anything about rotarys. So these are the end plates? Can you get the rotor housings out of billet?
Happy to see aftermarket for these quirky engines. Will there be rotor housings availible as well?
The machining model is open source for that plate too so can easily be machined at home...
Interesting. What makes you say that? Where can I find the Gerber file? Or do you mean that somebody has a Cosmo 13B end housing CAD file out there somewhere?
While the billet part is a beaut, and I wish I could afford them, to be very real:
1. The reason for all those bolts is because it is aluminum rather than Iron and it simply needs more bolts.. aluminum deflects a LOT more than iron around that circumference.
2. Regarding your comments on strength, an Iron part is (without question) stronger than an identically dimensioned aluminum part.
- The key here seems to be rather that:
1. the aluminum part is not as stiff (e.g.: it can bend more than its iron equivalent, meaning it will take equivalent shock loads without cracking) and
2. it is easier (and more cost effective) to bolster the dowel loading area with more (shock resistant aluminum) material in the billet part without exacting a weight/mass penalty (i.e.: rather than a casting, it is less work/cost to "add material" with billet simply by not removing material where it is not impinging upon some other dimension, since machining is an extractive process).
Also, it should be said that production restrictions/requirements are vastly different than custom parts... in Production, a few pennies of savings in one area may save the whole production line.. or enable some other (completely unrelated to the specific part) element to be incorporated (into the car, as a whole).
The blissful disregard the aftermarket gets to wield, compared to the constraints of the factory, is wonderfully non-compromising in functionality (at the cost of...well, cost). :-)
None the less, you guys do a great job of explaining and detailing all the ins and outs of these engines. THANK YOU for keeping the dream alive :-)))
Rich Piana is actually a good metaphor for the longevity of the rotary engine. Godammit..
Now hit the billet one to compare
i mean its not gonna break as easy cast iron shatters its not that its weak it just doesn't flex but aluminum accumulates fatigue and will fail eventually anyways regardless of the stress on it
If he hit the billet one at exactly same place it would've also snapped off so not really a fair hammer test,guess they sponsored by billet pro 😭
*GREAT explanations. Robust, DURABLE parts don't create power*
*But they do ... enable power you can create ... to be created reliably*
*What good is being temporarily 'first' provide if you can't finish the race..?*
*Curious: Were the CAST plate BRAND NEW ... would it still be that brittle..?*
*Did heating cycles ..? induce a change in material properties (annealing / work hardened) ..?*
*If the latter, can aluminum undergo a similar change (annealing I believe) ..?*
$2700 isn’t a bad price. A billet rAce V8 block is what $20,000-$30,000?
Heavy hauling Idaho A complete billet Rotary is even more $$$$$$$🤑🤑
12:55 Jordo and Broomy. 🤣😂 I'm dying from that boys, that was hilarious!! 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂 Holesaws and JB Weld FTW!! 😎😎😎
That split plate though, what a shame. That bridgeport looks huge and beautifully ported too. 😖
Whats the weight differance between fd block and your aluminium block?
I wonder how much a resurfacing would cost. I'm guessing less than $2700. Also how much is a new insert for the billet?
I believe that the Racing Beat aluminum 13B end housing is probably a better way to go than the Billet Pro. It's actually a cast aluminum part with a flame sprayed face - the flame spray is much harder and, because it's ceramic, reflects some of the heat back into the combustion chamber.
Do you produce these for the msp without the side exhaust ports? Any plans for msp rotor housings with a periferal port exhaust and 3 oil injectors?
No. Most people building a high powered rotary engine don't use MSP parts...
@@fullboost people don't use the because you don't offer it ;). I'd prefer to keep obd2 and stock ecu, im, throttle body. You yourself said it's for reliabilityvrather than power.
We don’t use them due to the design and temperature issues with the side seals in performance engines.
So technically you can replace the plate with pre cut bridge port plates etc?
Also why bother with the normal intake ports when going billet instead of just going full PP from the get go?
So excited cause BILLET = fullBOOST fullBOOST fullBOOST fullBOOST
If I would want to run naturally aspirated 500HP or 600HP reliably, should I buy billet plates or stick with the cast plates ??
You're going to need a 3 or 4 rotor engine to do that. Expensive either way.
Could buy a LS and hang a turbo off the side, for the price of the rotary engine and make half the power what's the point?
Billet rotors and eccentric shaft would probably make more power tho right? Should be alot less weight to move around.
That bridge port on the cracked block is so skinny on the bridge, wouldn't have done the corner seals any favours, impressive that it split the whole housing like that !
I owned a Mazda RX-8 for nine years. It was a cool car, but I eventually got sick of it. The two things that I got most sick of were the exhaust noise and the fuel economy. Yeah, it's a sports car, who cares about fuel economy, right? But when a piston engine car can make the same power with greater reliability and 50% better fuel economy...all I can say is my enthusiasm for rotary engines only extends so far.
Rotary 4 life
so the rotary wont breakdown with the billet?
Have you tried to 3D print a Titanium one? Aussie has the tech...
Straya - World leaders in tech 😂
How long does a Billet rotary engine last in driven kilometers without being rebuilt ??
And how much is this kit I know when I went for lower compression rotors it was stupid expensive
when someone makes a billet rotor or rotor housing ill be impressed. Problem with rotories is your hampered by a lot of factory parts still needing to be used. I'm no fanboi but i do like rotories for what they and the results people have gotten out of them is impressive
LandRoverLife these are in testing by a few companies right now
th-cam.com/video/PBNbCTMpA54/w-d-xo.html
Billet housings anyone? 🤘🤘🤘
The centre insert is replaceable? seems like something to work its way loose.
asambi69 it’s physically impossible for the centre but to come loose inside the engine to to the way the insert and locking nut is designed 😉
@@stevencockerill748 Sorry but it doesn't seem that way. its just torqued in place.
asambi69 I’m telling you it can’t move by its design.🙂 The nut uses a left and right thread to pull the insert down in to place.
If apex seal and housing were made of stronger metal would it be any better
With the kind of weight to power ratio along with their reliability, I'm wondering why your not seeing them in experimental aircraft.
Can I get this in the US ?
you really sold me, I'm getting one for my corolla
What is the weight difference?
Does anyone make billet MSP parts? All i can find are billet REW parts and to be honest i'm not keen on switching to REW.
I highly doubt anyone will ever make them. Unleass you're after some real power the OE parts are fine.
Do they offer bridgeport inserts?
Rob K Yes we do
So true guys with the billet stuff i caught my 626 on fire when the front plate decided to crack on 30psi by mistake but fuck it went hard 5th gear wheel spinning. great watch as usual thanks
Where can I buy a billet dunny?
What about a titanium rotary?
Show the boost increase difference on the Billet
how do they put the Chrome on aluminium?
Do they make these for Rx8 engines?
Nope, the RX-8 design is not suited for high hp.
However I'm sure you could put one of these in an rx8 by using a 13b rew swap kit.
hope the material specs are correct .. else it will suffer pitting and warping
"why you need to give us your whole wallet"
isn't a line bore with all new larger studs better ?
Sure would Love to bring My 78 FJ40 & 04 RX-8 Down Under for some Relaxation ! Fine Craftsmanship Folks , save Me a Couple BARRA'S TOO 😄🏁 Thanks Jimmy
How cost the engine (short block)
Bridge port/ Street port inserts? Peripheral ports?
Cody Call they can be ported to suit at purchase. If you wanted to suit a PP they would come solid. Seen them done before 👍🏻
We can supply all of the above
How to make a small fortune in auto racing: Start with a large one!
An important fact to remember when comparing the materials is that aluminium is far less stiff than cast iron and steels. Strength is not the only concern
And "stiff" and "stiffness" are not "engineering terms" applicable to generic, random and unspecified "aluminum" or "cast iron" or "steels".
Aluminum is also "industry standard" for all pistons in all "modern" spark-ignition and most compression-ignition "high compression" piston engines regardless of "performance level" and fuel type with even heavy-duty "articulated" diesel pistons having aluminum skirts with steel crowns. All of them in engines that aren't "disposable" run in cast-iron cylinder blocks or cylinder sleeves and are installed on forged steel connecting rods with tool steel wrist pins.
So obviously "aluminum" whether cast, forged or hypereutectic is plenty "stiff" for piston engines.
Aluminium has poor wear characteristics compared to cast iron and is NOT stronger, the demonstration shows the brittle characteristics of iron, which is also the reason they crack. One of the problems a rotary has, is two different heat zones on the same plane, cast iron handles temperature and wear extremely well. When rebuilding a rotary you should always check the iron plate hasn't warped, so how they solved this for billet, I'm not sure. In saying this, the wear wouldn't be a problem if you're pulling the engine apart frequently, or are doing some treatment method not mentioned in the video. Hopefully someone is working on a ceramic insert or even chrome plating like the housings (no apex chatter to worry about).
@Brad Viviviyal Cast iron is garbage? As in 2JZ, RB26, Bara, S54 and every cylinder liner on the market?
Sir! They are tuner they know what are they saying acurately. Iron cast holding temp more then ali and flexi.
@@thitran2098 Can't understand you Tran. Breaking off a thin piece of cast iron material doesn't prove one is better than the other, did they do the same thing on the billet plate? No. Even if they did, what does that prove? Ceramics are harder than steel but try hitting your dinner plate with a hammer and see what happens. The only real advantage I can see to using billet is making it "beefier" around damage prone areas (which studding an engine fixes anyway), porting and obviously weight. Again, did they address wear or surface hardness? How about the manufacturer answers this question..
this is helpfull video .
Thanks Dude!
Man RIP Rich Piana, had to do him dirty like that.
Nothing wrong with billet parts if you need them. As they said is for reliability if you want reasonable power over 500hp ect. In the long run would be cheaper instead replacing parts blocks ect.
Have you priced out replacing iron and rotors? It's only a little bit more to go billet over money and TIME especially spent constant pushing the envelope. The problem is the average enthusiast can't do both. So if you have an older non-Turbo car it would be hard to justify the additional cost. Or you can choose to keep the power level within limits of the OE hardware and focus more on working on lap times or reducing 60 ft or 330 times at the strip.
@@dj4monie I'm on about if you just keep replacing parts constantly as I said in the long run it would be cheaper so it would be worth to take that extra bit of time and save up a little bit more instead of doing things cheaper and then 6 months time spend the same amount of money again. Fair enough for the older models that aren't looking for much power and are doing the old cars and carby set ups. As I said I was on about people who are wanting more power and wanting the reliability over 500 so on so forth.
It's not like you'll have these old cars as your daily all the time.
When they smash embin? Thank
It must cure a lot of the water seal problems that are caused by different expansion rates of cast iron and aluminium.
Put some ceramic coating on the insert, micro holes holding enging oil. More mileage to go.
Nice! But really it's a performance part. Even in the world of V8s aluminum cylinder heads mean cooler temps and the ability to run much higher compression than stock cast iron heads. I'd compair them to a set of aluminum cylinder heads Not a billet crankshaft. You can get a billet excentric shaft even a 3 piece in case you'd rather run roller bearings in stead of big Babette bearings just saying. Hello 15k rpm
One problem with aluminum is that its easy to strip threads
Helicoils
Yeah but oversizing holes is no good on parts like this, want to avoid ideally
🤔shit
Mazda has improved the GM Wankel quite a bit. GM gave up the Wankel because of a few major issues they saw, sealing and fuel consumption were the main reasons. I think if the tunners found a way to make them compete with an LS in terms of reliability and fuel mileage, then you truly would have the holy grail of HP in your hands due to the power/weight ratio and size of those rotary's.
GM Wankel??? Felix Wankel developed the engine while he was a employee at NSU. GM was just one of many that bought a license to make the engine.Mazda (who also bought a license) improved the engine to something far more usable than NSU themselves or any other license owners managed to do. GM improved nothing, they just gave up when they discovered that they had bought a license to something that was not ready to use.
Another fantastic video. Keep up the good work FB and RRC
Who makes billet pro plates?
Isn't billet cast then forged metal?
The Billetpro website says it's suspended.
Just use FB instead.
The billet aluminum gains you lighter weight, its not really stronger then properly made steel, but it is easier to machine...
Man that boxing is sexy I'd buy the plate even if i don't have a rotary
the on thing I thought about is, cabon oxide tempered steel block & mill it down ( gonna be $4600 for one plate, )
These plates are $AUD 2950.
That billet steal insert should be a ceramic insert for longevity and while there all wear surfaces should and can be ceramic but I suspect no one will do that . Can you imagine longevity then and cooling issues would almost be not worth worrying about again
Sealing can be an issue thou. Look, this kind of stuff has been done wirh piston engines before. Even using ceramic coatings on pistons helps, but people tend to shy away from coating combustion chambers because it makes it harder to hear detonation...
Cool video. Thanks for this information. I would love to see more.
There will be a time when they start producing end plates with 3d sintering.
Man i'm buying another RX. Miss the rotary world so much!
how a maksium hp a billet blok
I love that you can remove the face of it, great engineering
Doesn't cast iron have a more lubracating effect on the rotor/piston. Wouldn't this aluminium sideplate just make the engine even more unreliable. There is a reason why aluminium piston engines have cast iron inserts in the cylinders.
ViivoHD The plate has a removable cast Insert