I agree with you on the Viper change. Why? Zergs cant choose a different building or transfuse? Also EMP isn't the reason mothership sucks. Vipers yank it and it's -400/-400
As a diamond terran that struggles to use ghost effectively in zvt i worry about the nerfs. But the patch overall seems like it has some good idea's so i'm optimistic overall. If you could find someone good to play against on the test patch that would be interesting!
By the way as for the viper i'm sure that vipers killing their own buildings is a bigger deal for lower level players. Seems fair enough to make that happens less easily for them?
Just published the balance test branch of the Advanced Unit Tester to include these changes so everyone can easily test them. There's both an extension mod and an arcade map version.
I don’t think the math changes at all on storm vs banelings. Since it will still take 4 ticks of 10 damage as the bane will regenerate 1 hp, 12:35. Now after 3 ticks of storm banes will have 1 HP instead of 6. Which is really not impactful imo
I think its weird that gabe does only mention PvZ as I believe TvZ has the biggest impact. I think this might even be an extreme nerf to Zerg in the matchup. It is essentially ling bane vs bio in most of the games and also about sniping banes.
Think mothership might benefit from not requiring fleet beacon to build, but requiring fleet beacon to use certain abilities, so you can rush to a mothership, hide it in a proxy location, defend against an early attack at home, then use mothership recall for a surprise counter-attack, but you won't have cloak or time warp in the early game without building a fleet beacon. Bit of cheeky aggression with the possibility of getting out via mass recall if it goes wrong. If mass recall is even still a thing, I haven't played sc2 in such a long time xD
I legit had a dream that i made 2 cyclones and was chasing an overseer across the map for a minute without being able to kill it because the range and dps and speed was too low XD
I like buff Protoss in PvT. Maybe except nerfed disruptors. 1. Minedrop red drop will be bigge. 2. Longer guardian shield. 3. More usable mothership. 4. Immortal Barriere working properly, blocking literally FIRST 100 damage.
it seems to me , many of the zergs players went to the balance team and cried for terran nerf , once it is nerfed who the hell gonna play it ?right now the only thing need to do is to buff protoss, then the 3 races balanced
Hey man, as a Protoss (Diamond 3) I am curious what you think about the Caduceus Reactor upgrade to Medivac? I feel like it is in the same vein as the Viper buff in the sense that it adds something to a unit that is not showing weakness. I was mentioning this on Winter's video and I got dogpiled by Terrans telling me that it doesn't matter because you never see empty medivacs anyway. But then I just wonder: "If this is already the case, why have an upgrade to double it?" It just feels weird to me. I think a 100% bonus to something that is already considered a "non-problem" by Terrans should then just not be part of it, right? Thanks!
The patch definitely has some interesting moves in it, some I like and some I am a little skeptical on. I am curious to see how the cyclone change in action though.
Some alternatives Non pros who cant push the units and game state to the level of balance/imbalance relevance. Developers who barely play the game at any level Biased content creators (a lot of the balance proplayers play all races) Utilizing pure math and data on a spreadsheet to project mathematical harmony...in a game with human interaction and ghosts in the machine (bugs, exploits, unintended interactions not considered) The military officers use senior enlisted advisors who are lower rank than them but have 10x the experience to help keep perspective. Without a crystal ball and powers of god. Ill take pros having opinions and influence on the balance team every day every time.
Amazing video. Thanks as always for the content. I think they nerfed the Terran a little to hard. Without early matrix how can you put two base pressure on a Protoss's third that has colossus and a battery. I guess the answer is cyclones, but then range decreased.
The Cyclone does 18 dmg flat right now, doesn't it? To me the Cyclone changes seem to be nerfs in total. PiG said that it will now be able to have 4 Cyclones locked on 1 zergling since they simply lock on the closest unit and there can be multiple lock ons on the same unit which reduces their dps even more.
It’s a big buff. The attack speed was buffed greatly, lock on has no CD. It just trades well against all gateway units now as a core unit. Also, it’s the price of a stalker now lol
lock on has no delay. so isnt really an ability anymore and basically just means that cyclones can attack while moving like battlecruisers can. so them all locking on to the same unit if it comes in range is fine, thats what every other unit in the game currently does with their auto attacks so why does the cyclones autoattack need to be different?
Only a terran would see a tripled attack rate, a move speed faster than a stimmed marine or zealot with legs, no cooldown on its ability, cost reduced to that of a stalker, and being able to pop two out at a time, and call it a nerf.
@@SeeAndDreamify pointed out zerg specifically because the nerf would've saved the viper from being one shotted ghosts and HT still die even without the pisonic dmg up
honestly, it's a minor change to make it easier to use. won't change much on pro level and will help on lower levels, where viper DEFINITELY isn't overused. So I don't see a problem.
There's a potential conflict of interest; pros might be motivated to skew balance in their own race's favor. I think that's somewhat balanced by having pros from different races participate and agree on changes, but I totally respect HeroMarine feeling weird about it.
Also, balancing the game for the top 200 players doesn’t always mean it balances itself for the other 99% of players. World of Warcraft has been struggling with this line for years now. Those players are just on a different level playing a different game.
Its speed is not buffed. Its acceleration/deceleration is changed, meaning it reaches its top speed quicker, and slows down to a halt quicker, making kiting with it much more responsive. Which you know, is kinda what it does, except it does it pretty crappily.
Wow, how much of their prize money did Serral and Reynor pay you to say nice things about this TERRAN EXTINCTION PATCH? Just kidding. HeroMarine has so much integrity he won't even participate in the patches. I love you HONEST GABE
The terran buffs don't seem very significant, only making the cyclone maybe a bit more usable but not necessarily meta. Which is really nice gameplay wise though. maybe we can sometimes see more creative builds even if they aren't meta. They sure got some nerfs though considering how much they depend on ghosts.
I wonder why, maybe because all maps are terrible for protoss and they can't even compete? Like, even as a terran player it's just sad to see one race being clearly useless.
I don't think any race got buffed or nerfed in a significant way, except maybe Banelings against Protoss. All seems relatively harmless which it should be since balance at the moment is pretty alright
What are your thoughts on the new patch? Should I set up some games on the Test Mod?
I agree with you on the Viper change. Why? Zergs cant choose a different building or transfuse? Also EMP isn't the reason mothership sucks. Vipers yank it and it's -400/-400
As a diamond terran that struggles to use ghost effectively in zvt i worry about the nerfs. But the patch overall seems like it has some good idea's so i'm optimistic overall. If you could find someone good to play against on the test patch that would be interesting!
By the way as for the viper i'm sure that vipers killing their own buildings is a bigger deal for lower level players. Seems fair enough to make that happens less easily for them?
as a battlemech abuser, i’d like to see how the cyclone fairs in the mid to late game.
maybe some more terrans should join the balancing team :) @HeroMarineSc2
Just published the balance test branch of the Advanced Unit Tester to include these changes so everyone can easily test them. There's both an extension mod and an arcade map version.
thank you for your work!
I don’t think the math changes at all on storm vs banelings. Since it will still take 4 ticks of 10 damage as the bane will regenerate 1 hp, 12:35. Now after 3 ticks of storm banes will have 1 HP instead of 6. Which is really not impactful imo
I'm wondering what the snipe damage nerf changes it seems very intentional
@@ksisniper1601 you need an extra snipe to kill ultras
I think its weird that gabe does only mention PvZ as I believe TvZ has the biggest impact. I think this might even be an extreme nerf to Zerg in the matchup. It is essentially ling bane vs bio in most of the games and also about sniping banes.
Think mothership might benefit from not requiring fleet beacon to build, but requiring fleet beacon to use certain abilities, so you can rush to a mothership, hide it in a proxy location, defend against an early attack at home, then use mothership recall for a surprise counter-attack, but you won't have cloak or time warp in the early game without building a fleet beacon. Bit of cheeky aggression with the possibility of getting out via mass recall if it goes wrong. If mass recall is even still a thing, I haven't played sc2 in such a long time xD
The new mothership seems to be a strictly worse version of the sc1 arbiter
Somewhere out there.... Artosis is inexplicably screaming.
I legit had a dream that i made 2 cyclones and was chasing an overseer across the map for a minute without being able to kill it because the range and dps and speed was too low XD
I like buff Protoss in PvT. Maybe except nerfed disruptors.
1. Minedrop red drop will be bigge.
2. Longer guardian shield.
3. More usable mothership.
4. Immortal Barriere working properly, blocking literally FIRST 100 damage.
it seems to me , many of the zergs players went to the balance team and cried for terran nerf , once it is nerfed who the hell gonna play it ?right now the only thing need to do is to buff protoss, then the 3 races balanced
I am interested to see Terran open cyclones against Protoss with the new update
shhhh, the protoss players may be able to read.
So is the cyclone getting more and more similar to vultures
Really interested in the mothership changes, really thankful for the ghost changes
Big Gabe has a YT channel? Lezz go!
Hey man, as a Protoss (Diamond 3) I am curious what you think about the Caduceus Reactor upgrade to Medivac? I feel like it is in the same vein as the Viper buff in the sense that it adds something to a unit that is not showing weakness.
I was mentioning this on Winter's video and I got dogpiled by Terrans telling me that it doesn't matter because you never see empty medivacs anyway. But then I just wonder: "If this is already the case, why have an upgrade to double it?"
It just feels weird to me. I think a 100% bonus to something that is already considered a "non-problem" by Terrans should then just not be part of it, right?
Thanks!
The patch definitely has some interesting moves in it, some I like and some I am a little skeptical on. I am curious to see how the cyclone change in action though.
I would like to see a slight nerf to the parasit bomb. In general the patch looks interesting.
Im mostly ok with all of it MINUS the cyclone rework. ive played it, and wow WAY too strong holy crap.
Sold at "pros shouldn't balance the game" your head's screwed on Gabe
Some alternatives
Non pros who cant push the units and game state to the level of balance/imbalance relevance.
Developers who barely play the game at any level
Biased content creators (a lot of the balance proplayers play all races)
Utilizing pure math and data on a spreadsheet to project mathematical harmony...in a game with human interaction and ghosts in the machine (bugs, exploits, unintended interactions not considered)
The military officers use senior enlisted advisors who are lower rank than them but have 10x the experience to help keep perspective.
Without a crystal ball and powers of god. Ill take pros having opinions and influence on the balance team every day every time.
Amazing video. Thanks as always for the content. I think they nerfed the Terran a little to hard. Without early matrix how can you put two base pressure on a Protoss's third that has colossus and a battery. I guess the answer is cyclones, but then range decreased.
The Cyclone does 18 dmg flat right now, doesn't it? To me the Cyclone changes seem to be nerfs in total. PiG said that it will now be able to have 4 Cyclones locked on 1 zergling since they simply lock on the closest unit and there can be multiple lock ons on the same unit which reduces their dps even more.
The buffed attack speed and reduced delay compensate for that a fair bit, but you would want hellions instead for dealing with lings anyways.
but the lock on has no cooldown anymore, they can instantly lock on the next target and the lock on has no more attack delay
It’s a big buff. The attack speed was buffed greatly, lock on has no CD. It just trades well against all gateway units now as a core unit. Also, it’s the price of a stalker now lol
lock on has no delay. so isnt really an ability anymore and basically just means that cyclones can attack while moving like battlecruisers can. so them all locking on to the same unit if it comes in range is fine, thats what every other unit in the game currently does with their auto attacks so why does the cyclones autoattack need to be different?
Only a terran would see a tripled attack rate, a move speed faster than a stimmed marine or zealot with legs, no cooldown on its ability, cost reduced to that of a stalker, and being able to pop two out at a time, and call it a nerf.
Pfff prevent mothership being hard countered by emp? Its already being countered by detection.
funny that they nerfed snipe dmg but specifically still the same for zerg spell casters
I think all spell casters, not just zerg spell casters.
@@SeeAndDreamify pointed out zerg specifically because the nerf would've saved the viper from being one shotted
ghosts and HT still die even without the pisonic dmg up
@@nytmaire74 aah
BIggest Gabe
Un-nerf the Raven auto turrets. They're total pants.
When they nerf widow mines.
As a Protoss I gotta agree. I used to fear them. Now I don't even respond. Feels like a pointless ability now.
You are too precious for this world.
The Viper change *facepalm* I agree with HeroMarine here, zero reason to buff it. The Cabal is back in action!
honestly, it's a minor change to make it easier to use. won't change much on pro level and will help on lower levels, where viper DEFINITELY isn't overused. So I don't see a problem.
It's a quality of life change, it really changes nothing for the games played.
@@swing9170 yeah right any buff on zerg is for lower level ppl , pros not affected
#fuckyouzergcraft
But ghosts still crush everything of zerg.
Yes, the zerg cabal must be behind this...
Still no scrouges.... The anti Zerg hate is real.
Please do not nerf banelings!
no terran will be able to beat zerg late game with bio if this happends
Why is that?
Why do you want to beat your opponents in late game with only one branch of techs while your opponents open up all the techs?
Oh no, you'll have to use your unit roster.
Why shouldn't pros balance the game?
There's a potential conflict of interest; pros might be motivated to skew balance in their own race's favor.
I think that's somewhat balanced by having pros from different races participate and agree on changes, but I totally respect HeroMarine feeling weird about it.
@@linksIegend Yeah, I mean as long as there's an equal amount of representation from all 3 races, I feel that would be okay.
Also, balancing the game for the top 200 players doesn’t always mean it balances itself for the other 99% of players. World of Warcraft has been struggling with this line for years now.
Those players are just on a different level playing a different game.
Their job is to win the most money, so they are (probably) extremely biased in their argumentation.
@@linksIegend you could maybe also make rules that they can only propose nerfs to their own race and buffs to other races.
Rip banelings 😓
Personally I dont like the tempest speed buff. It should remain a siege unit and already has good micro potential with air targeting priority.
Its speed is not buffed. Its acceleration/deceleration is changed, meaning it reaches its top speed quicker, and slows down to a halt quicker, making kiting with it much more responsive. Which you know, is kinda what it does, except it does it pretty crappily.
Wow, how much of their prize money did Serral and Reynor pay you to say nice things about this TERRAN EXTINCTION PATCH? Just kidding. HeroMarine has so much integrity he won't even participate in the patches. I love you HONEST GABE
Tell me about this Extinction patch?
I agree with his sentiment, but honestly if top players from other races are participating he should give them some pushback to keep things balanced.
oh look, a terran main thinking his race is underpowered and everyone has an ez gg game against them unless they better than perfect. xD keep crying
No wonder you don't trust progamers to do balance... Of all the analyses I've seen, this has been the most oblivious and self-serving😂
Patchnote made by protosses. Terran : Some ups, some nerfs / Zerg : NERF NERF NERF / Protoss : UP UP UP UP
so what exactly went up for toss? Get reall.
@@Eraz0rZ the common opinions from all the pros I've seen so far is that they got some good buffs but they're not enough.
The terran buffs don't seem very significant, only making the cyclone maybe a bit more usable but not necessarily meta. Which is really nice gameplay wise though. maybe we can sometimes see more creative builds even if they aren't meta.
They sure got some nerfs though considering how much they depend on ghosts.
I wonder why, maybe because all maps are terrible for protoss and they can't even compete? Like, even as a terran player it's just sad to see one race being clearly useless.
I don't think any race got buffed or nerfed in a significant way, except maybe Banelings against Protoss. All seems relatively harmless which it should be since balance at the moment is pretty alright