It should have been a top player of each race. Then the terrain can complain about how aggressively lurkers ruin terrain stuff and force out expensive counters.
The entire Warp Prism commentary is hilarious, with Harstem not thinking it's that good, and the incredulous looks that Lambo and Scarlett are sharing XD
harstem on his youtube video: the raven is the best unit in the game. it's a detector, it can disable units. it can apply -4 armor in huge AOE, it can deal heavy damage with auto turrets, and those turrets range and armor can be upgraded. they should make disable cost 225 energy, which is more than the raven is born with, that's how strong they are. roughly quoted, to elaborate on OP's comment
@@bobby4tw I also felt that way. They shouldn't have skipped overlords and workers either. Those are units that impact the game. They should be ranked. Especially considering some workers are better than others.
That picture of the raven sticks out a bit with the white background. There is another reason it catches my eye: I made that picture, over a decade ago. I took a screenshot of it and cropped it then uploaded it to Liquipedia. It's nice to see it still being used all these years later. It might be a minuscule legacy, but, hey, that's my work there. (And I'm still using a green raven as my avatar to this day, lol.)
You should definitely do a Scarlett, Lambo, Harstem podcast! I loved this! I'd love to see more in depth discussions on how everyone feels about the "cutting edge" of the ever-changing SC2 Meta.
This was super fun, it'd be great if you could do one with a Terran player too, so then if there's disagreement on a races unit the player who mains that race can be the tiebreaker always :) Edit: but you can't remove Lambo or Scarlett so it'd need to be 4; your 3's chemistry is too good
I always wished Mothership could not be abducted. It's a hero unit and massive. It's immune to some spells, I think an argument could be made to make it immune to abduct. But maybe then it's too good? I dunno, I just wish Mothership was more used...
I love that y’all took on the absurd task of ranking starcraft2 units - love y’all. Also S:“Didn’t Clem win against carriers?” H:“Wooh, against me” 😂 that exchange killed me.
Even though I had a few disagreements with your list, I just want to say I appreciate the heck what you, Scarlett and Lambo does for the SC2 community! I love this game so much and thank you for keeping it what it is after 12 years! Still entertaining :)
And I would appreciate more if they can share some progress about the "Balance Committee" that they have been working on. Since the lastest patch of nerfing double SG Voidray and Queen Walk, there has been zero further information about wheres that heading next.
At first I was thinking that the video was too long, then I started watching. Before I even noticed, an hour went by. Great stuff, and really fun. Cheers!
Lambo has much theoretical knowledge of the game and decent mechanics, although there are a lot of other players who are better mechanically (multi-tasking and speed) but his mindset is incredibly weak compared to the rest. That's why he's gonna perform well on ladder and in games in usual but will perform infinitely worse in any tournaments or if he knows he's playing high-calibre players. Sad thing tbh, i wish him more success in tournaments.
The medivac is used in (early-) mid- and lategame in all 3 matchups. The micropotential is insane and drops can decide games single handedly. It is an easy S-tier. I'd put it above the oracle.
Watching Uthermal challenges regularly made this list very strange. Truly goes to show how different the game is between high level games and top level games. Uthermal is not bad but he isn't playing against the best so he can still make units work where normally they shouldn't. Very interesting video.
uThermal plays masters and below in all of his challenges, his challenges usually end pretty soon into GM because players get too good. Seeing a GM beat up small league players really doesn't say ANYTHING about balance. Also his tournament wins with silly stuff are usually vs players a lot worse than him, if they're near his level, the weird stuff most often doesn't work anymore because it's not played for a reason.
I think this tier list is really good. I enjoyed watching you three argue over things a bit and get swayed by each other, I think that was a lot more interesting than just having one person make a list and explain it as they go. My only complaints are that I think it would have benefited from having a pro terran there too, and I still maintain that the viper has to be S tier. You need it in every matchup, it's incredibly powerful in every one, it's useful against a large variety of strategies.
I think they did the tier list thinking heavily about how popular some things are. Instead I would lean more towards how crucial the unit is for the health of the race. For example any unit without which the race falls apart in at least one of the matchups would have to be S tier by default. I think this is true for Viper in ZvT there is no way that matchup is healthy without it. Also I think it is obvious mirror matchups should be excluded from the discussion. There is really no point to make tiers of units thinking about mirror matchup, its just silly. So yea I agree with you. Viper has to be S tier. also the 2/3 rule is BS. If a units is only used in 1 matchup but it is critical for that matchup it should still be considered an S tier even if the other non mirror matchup is F. Maybe they should have just made tiers for separate matchups.
Thank you for bringing some intelligent people to your channel. It makes me feel smarter. People with low IQ, like you and I, can make ourselves seem smarter when we surround ourselves with intelligent people. We can let them spout their brilliant ideas and then we pretend those ideas were our own original thoughts. This is what makes you and I absolutely brilliant. Also I may have made the masterly decision to use a thesaurus, because I cannot think of other words for intelligent by myself. This is the highest IQ move I can think of.
I know this is late to the discussion, but I think the cyclone is pretty interesting because I see it a lot in early game play for shutting down all ins, sniping queens or ravagers or individual protoss units. I'm glad its above the banshee. I find the disruptor commentary to be very interesting as well. I think the disruptor is high value, not necessary because it "does really well" so much as it completely shuts down non-micro playstyle. It forces a player to look at the fight the entire time because if they look away, they lose 4-8 units per shot. I feel that some units just fundamentally alter the physical mechanics of playing the game.
On the other hand if your micro is below par you just don't play bio. Tanks, mines, storms and lurkers are all made to counter bio. Splash damage is a staple in all 3 matchups. If you can't deal with the splash then the army should be at least a big part made of mech. But the disruptor has to be that lethal because mines are just that lethal and bio is very high dps. That's the design they wanted for the game and I personally don't like that insane of a lethality.
I think this Tierlist shows pretty well how great SC2 is balanced. How many units are useable and viable in different situations, got pros/cons and even some which arent often used, got somehow their place where you want to know them in your arsenal for any situation. Absolutly great :)
It's so wild watching after coming back from a huge SC2 break. I haven't watch in ages, and haven't seen any tournaments post LOTV. The tier list is almost reverse of what people used to play
How can you not love Harstem? He's a world class SCII player, he's absolutely hysterical, he helps ban cheaters at the highest level, he partakes in SCII reworks with the developers, he brings pros together on his channel in a format that is both educational and hilarious making the community stronger. If Frost Giant was smart they would hire harstem to make their game the best it could be.
Love the video, I think it would be S+ tier if Thermy was here. To me, the medivac belongs right after the stalker. Reaper is D tier, I think you’re undervaluing scouting and you can make 5 of them in TvT
Reapers can outright win the game in TvT with proxy 2 rax which was the justification for some other A and S tier units. Otherwise, I agreed with most things, even if it was slightly biased against Terran ;)
I'm so glad they're putting the immortal where it belongs. I watched someone do a ranking recently, I think maybe it was tasteless, and he put the immortal in S tier. I was just sitting here thinking "It's not 2012 any more". I'd have gone low B probably, but calling the immortal S tier absolutely blew my mind.
It's mind-boggling to me that the adept is rated so highly with their logic. The unit itself is used for scouting only and for 2-3 all-ins against zerg, nothing else. It being higher rated than a phoenix and a raven or even an immortal is incomprehensible to me :D Adepts are higher than reapers but otherwise identically useless as soon as the game timer hits 7 minutes. They're not even used in lategame glaive runbys, although they could be. Vipers also need to be higher imo, their potential is super good and their cost-effectiveness usually very high because the spells have so much range.
Banes not being S is crazy. If you removed banes from the game, zergs would have a 0% win rate vs terran. You recognize that Marines are the best unit, but their biggest counter in the whole game is overlooked. Other than that, I think the list is pretty good. I think Hellbats get a bad rep because people use them incorrectly, not because they are bad, but I can live with that.
what they mentioned at the end is what i actually wanted to see ranked: how good is a single unit, regardless of where it's played or cost. if a unit the moment you make it ends the game, it should be s, regardless of in games if you get to that point.
My S tier would be different: Marines still #1, because they can do everything; Lings #2, since their DPS per mineral is huge, ling runbys are a constant threat, and they can burrow to delay the opponent expanding, you might be able to pure-ling up to masters; queens #3, because they're the Zerg crutch unit - tanky healers, great anti-air, quick wall-off, they're powerful because the devs didn't give Zerg a good early-game anti-air, ghosts #4 because many people complain how OP they are, but also how necessary they are; Vipers #5 because 'yoink!', parasitic bomb > storm, and the 'no tanks allowed' spell - they make expensive units a waste of money; infestors #6 because neural motherships and thors, chain fungals vs. air or cloaked units, just don't move-command them into the opponent's army; Disruptors #7 because they zone and harass so hard; and swarm hosts (with nydus) #8 because a decently sized locust wave can take out a base, and that same sized wave can stall an opponent's attack long enough for you to reinforce, retreat, base trade, etc. for low APM and low risk. The basic idea for the S-tier in my mind is that when they come out, the game becomes a test of whether or not the opponent can stop that unit. Can they stop your vipers before you yoink their army into oblivion? Can they find your infestors before you fungal their marines and get a traitor ghost to EMP the rest of them? Can they stop your disruptors before their income drops too low to recover? The exceptions would be the marine, zergling, and queen - since they're always present, they characterize the matchup as opposed to recharacterizing it.
Immortals are absolutely an A+ unit. All-in, all-in defense, cheese, cheese defense, excellent in the mid-game, great late game against heavy units and buildings…
I was thinking about this and it's just because they don't get their shots off. If the sentry would be popular again the immortal might return as well.
The only glaring issue is that it is a Robo unit, meaning you have to make either Immortal or Disruptor, and passing mid-game pretty much everyone would make Disruptor over Immortal, other than against Ultra. By itself as a unit, Immortal is needed to break down the opponent defensive point, or creating the anchor point for the army. So I think thats should already put them on the same level with the Adept/Archon, aka the B-tier.
I think Tempests are actually underrated as a lategame option. So many times protoss players run 5+ carriers into a bunch of anti air. Idk I’m a noob but in pro matches it often looks like tempests are pretty strong.
It's great watching these 2 professional gamers and this professional idiot (Harstem) in this video together. Got to see my fave starcraft 2 player again as well which is great. Alongside Harstem and lambo of course. Don't worry Harstem, I also identify as a professional idiot.
I don't know how colossi made it above D tier. for the time to build and overall cost each, and the number you need for them to even be useful(which is usually about 5 or so), you might as well have made carriers instead(and they would have performed better overall). sure with a prism you can micro them back, but if they manage to snipe the prism with the colossi in it you kinda just auto-lose with that push, no? especially if terran has any number of vikings, a raven or two and a tank line. idk, to me, like muta and phoenix, it's too niche of a unit for C tier. I feel like those three belong in D. top of D for sure, but still just D. 🤷
I think the best way to organize a tier list that is this long is to organize the units into their lettered categories, and then sort each lettered category on its own.
This tier list is really off with some units. Banelings are easily S, same with Vipers. Ghosts are great but only used in two matchups, how can it be S? More like A. A lot of examples like this lol.
I can't believe Harstem said the tank is worse than the colossus in pvt lol. The tank is just like the colossus in that it helps you survive against pushes, but you can actually do legitimately scary pushes based around the tank as well.
to put the carrier, a unit that requires minerals to rebuilt interceptors, above the battle cruisser, a unit that can teleport and yamato units, it's a travesty! Most PvZ late games end up with protoss loosing to Zerg when choosing carriers because they get abducted and distroyed, or simply end up without any funds to rebuilt interceptors due to the hydra- fungal combination, and the lack of minerals on the map. In fact, it's the only unit in the whole game twhich after is being built, requires extra minerals in order to be used. This makes it a solid F unit.
Lol, even in pro games carrier can literally carry the game. They are much easier to use than counter. And in the lower leagues they stomp most players while requiring zero skill to use.
Awesome video! Could anyone point to a good video, or article/blog that goes more into depth on units. When to use them, when to not and why, how to use them etc? Thanks!
Isnt lib im PvT super vital? With range and +2 you need to build the terrible tempest and in TvT it pushes the tank lines away. In TvZ the tank performs better but you can mix in a few of them. I think D is a bit low considering PvT, lib ghost is insane
I understand the arguments against Mutalisk, but I would rate it mid B Tier. The unit is very expensive, but the real determining factor is the APM requirements of the unit. To use the Mutalisk effectively you need to be playing "Archon" mode because a Mutalisk requires very high APM and baby sitting because they die so easily, and cost so much gas to replace.
Am I the only one impressed with how it's comfortable for Lambo to sit with his hand(s) up behind his back? He sits like this for like 3/4 of the video with small changes. xD
I was expecting Prism to be highest S. You can dodge seeker missiles. If you're good enough 3 stalkers can kill 8 marauders and never get hit. It's mobile after the upgrade. 0 gas. You can warp in gateway units near it for all your charges. It makes blink stalker even more obnoxious. It enables DT to be useful without the blink. It only delays building the worst unit in the Protoss roster (colossus). Every unit is so much better and can get lots more value with a Prism nearby. The way people play against Prism they treat it like a liberator, never go near the field without critical mass. Keeps every player on their toes even more than medivac drops cuz zealots aren't made of paper.
Also, it’s ridiculous that you don’t put reaper in. It’s not the same as observer. It’s similar to (but worse than) adept- used for scouting and harassment, falls off hard after the early game. Can be used as an all in. I’d give a D tier
![The Complete Story of Destiny! From origins to Shadowkeep [Timeline and Lore explained]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9mbDXvDNqTU/mqdefault.jpg)
Harstem trying to convince two top Zergs about the capabilities of the Lurker feels like an episode of Shark tank
"And when you're not fighting, it even works as a can opener!"
S tier comment
It should have been a top player of each race. Then the terrain can complain about how aggressively lurkers ruin terrain stuff and force out expensive counters.
As a protoss I believe the lurker is B tier, very annoying to play against
@@michaelwicker9538 oh no they force out the ghost we toooootally didn't want any of those
A German, Canadian, and Dutchman walk into a bar.
Everybody has a fantastic time.
Totally, Not just the the peeps joining the bar, but everyone else in the bar as well.
Only if the music is too loud.
Adept 0:30
Archon 1:41
Baneling 3:26
Banshee 5:03
Battlecruiser 6:34
Broodlord 8:41
Carrier 10:53
Colossus 13:36
Corruptor 15:21
Cyclone 17:03
Dark Templar 18:24
Disruptor 19:46
Drone 22:00 (removed afterwards)
Ghost 22:29
Hellbat 24:13
Hellion 25:31
Swarmhost 27:02
Hydralisk 28:30
Immortal 30:54
Infestor 32:49
Liberator 35:12
Lurker 36:50
Marauder 39:54
Marine 42:33
Medivac 43:56
Mothership 45:26
Mutalisk 47:57
Observer 51:08 (removed afterwards)
Oracle 51:39
Phoenix 53:23 (overlord and overseer skipped)
Warp Prism 55:03
Queen 57:57 (probe skipped)
Ravager 59:41
Raven 1:00:21
Reaper 1:01:21 (skipped)
Roach 1:02:14
Sentry 1:03:08 (scv skipped)
Stalker 1:04:53
Siege Tank 1:06:34
Tempest 1:07:34
High Templar 1:07:53
Thor 1:09:42
Ultralisk 1:10:19
Viking 1:11:08
Viper 1:12:09
Void Ray 1:13:41
Widow Mine 1:14:12
Zealot 1:16:16
Zergling 1:17:54
REVIEW 1:18:29
Thank you, sir.
All praise the time stamp guys!!!!
If you don't have time to watch them all, choose the Lurker.
Goat
ty brother
The entire Warp Prism commentary is hilarious, with Harstem not thinking it's that good, and the incredulous looks that Lambo and Scarlett are sharing XD
Harstem in ladder streaming: Raven must be an S tier unit.
Harstem in discussion of units: Raven may be an B tier
harstem on his youtube video: the raven is the best unit in the game. it's a detector, it can disable units. it can apply -4 armor in huge AOE, it can deal heavy damage with auto turrets, and those turrets range and armor can be upgraded. they should make disable cost 225 energy, which is more than the raven is born with, that's how strong they are.
roughly quoted, to elaborate on OP's comment
I am more amazed of how they chose to skip Reaper. It's an amazing scout and can do some very good early harass.
@@flappy7373 Between timestamp 1:18:30 to 1:19:00 Harstem actually says that Raven is way too low Tier and he want it at a higher Tier.
Siege tanks are in every single terran game ive ever seen. How are they not s tier?
@@bobby4tw I also felt that way. They shouldn't have skipped overlords and workers either. Those are units that impact the game. They should be ranked. Especially considering some workers are better than others.
Harstem is sticking to his words of never befriending a Terran player
Based
we demand an update, but with special!
@@yugonostalgia8961 or just gay
@@4utoxic Also based
That picture of the raven sticks out a bit with the white background. There is another reason it catches my eye: I made that picture, over a decade ago. I took a screenshot of it and cropped it then uploaded it to Liquipedia.
It's nice to see it still being used all these years later. It might be a minuscule legacy, but, hey, that's my work there.
(And I'm still using a green raven as my avatar to this day, lol.)
Also, fun fact: that raven has a white Protoss decal on the side because I've always been a Protoss player. Hehe, I had forgotten I'd done that.
wow
Cool info :)
I’d be cool if they make a hero unit in the editor with your name.
You should definitely do a Scarlett, Lambo, Harstem podcast! I loved this! I'd love to see more in depth discussions on how everyone feels about the "cutting edge" of the ever-changing SC2 Meta.
This was super fun, it'd be great if you could do one with a Terran player too, so then if there's disagreement on a races unit the player who mains that race can be the tiebreaker always :)
Edit: but you can't remove Lambo or Scarlett so it'd need to be 4; your 3's chemistry is too good
and possibly this video could be 3hr long :)
wish there would be a terran player too
Pretty sure mr harstem has all Terran players blocked 😂😭
"Siege Tank can't be good" lol
If special was here this video would be 3 hours of comedy gold
I always wished Mothership could not be abducted. It's a hero unit and massive. It's immune to some spells, I think an argument could be made to make it immune to abduct. But maybe then it's too good? I dunno, I just wish Mothership was more used...
I love that y’all took on the absurd task of ranking starcraft2 units - love y’all.
Also S:“Didn’t Clem win against carriers?” H:“Wooh, against me” 😂 that exchange killed me.
Yeah that was great self - depricating humor
Even though I had a few disagreements with your list, I just want to say I appreciate the heck what you, Scarlett and Lambo does for the SC2 community! I love this game so much and thank you for keeping it what it is after 12 years! Still entertaining :)
And I would appreciate more if they can share some progress about the "Balance Committee" that they have been working on. Since the lastest patch of nerfing double SG Voidray and Queen Walk, there has been zero further information about wheres that heading next.
At first I was thinking that the video was too long, then I started watching. Before I even noticed, an hour went by. Great stuff, and really fun.
Cheers!
happened to me too. When Harstem said "it was a good hour and a half" i thought "¿what?" felt like 20 minutes.
me too man, would watch another hour easily
You 3 together are a riot, please do more collaborations!
Never really watch Lambo but he sounds like he has a lot of Starcraft IQ . Very smart player and understands the game very well
They call him "the Professor" in EU scene, he seems to know about every single build, their timing and how to scout them out.
Especially after he coached Reynor to the win!
Lambo has much theoretical knowledge of the game and decent mechanics, although there are a lot of other players who are better mechanically (multi-tasking and speed) but his mindset is incredibly weak compared to the rest. That's why he's gonna perform well on ladder and in games in usual but will perform infinitely worse in any tournaments or if he knows he's playing high-calibre players.
Sad thing tbh, i wish him more success in tournaments.
Those tournaments during the pandemic with harstem and lambo casting were SS tier
No Terran player gets a voice.... just like it should always be 😌😌
W video captain
The medivac is used in (early-) mid- and lategame in all 3 matchups. The micropotential is insane and drops can decide games single handedly. It is an easy S-tier. I'd put it above the oracle.
100% agree its probably the beast unit in the game since marines are reliant on the medivac
Harstem always feels like he overstates the Protos unit capabilities while understating the rest.
Watching Uthermal challenges regularly made this list very strange. Truly goes to show how different the game is between high level games and top level games. Uthermal is not bad but he isn't playing against the best so he can still make units work where normally they shouldn't. Very interesting video.
any unit could be s tier if controlled by a pro vs a casual player
uThermal plays masters and below in all of his challenges, his challenges usually end pretty soon into GM because players get too good.
Seeing a GM beat up small league players really doesn't say ANYTHING about balance. Also his tournament wins with silly stuff are usually vs players a lot worse than him, if they're near his level, the weird stuff most often doesn't work anymore because it's not played for a reason.
@@asdfasdf-mn8iu What are you talking about? Who said anything about balance?
@@jacobsvensson8193 what are YOU talking about, you fkin goof? the balance has always been in this topic.
I think this tier list is really good. I enjoyed watching you three argue over things a bit and get swayed by each other, I think that was a lot more interesting than just having one person make a list and explain it as they go. My only complaints are that I think it would have benefited from having a pro terran there too, and I still maintain that the viper has to be S tier. You need it in every matchup, it's incredibly powerful in every one, it's useful against a large variety of strategies.
I think they did the tier list thinking heavily about how popular some things are. Instead I would lean more towards how crucial the unit is for the health of the race. For example any unit without which the race falls apart in at least one of the matchups would have to be S tier by default. I think this is true for Viper in ZvT there is no way that matchup is healthy without it. Also I think it is obvious mirror matchups should be excluded from the discussion. There is really no point to make tiers of units thinking about mirror matchup, its just silly.
So yea I agree with you. Viper has to be S tier.
also the 2/3 rule is BS. If a units is only used in 1 matchup but it is critical for that matchup it should still be considered an S tier even if the other non mirror matchup is F.
Maybe they should have just made tiers for separate matchups.
Thank you for bringing some intelligent people to your channel. It makes me feel smarter. People with low IQ, like you and I, can make ourselves seem smarter when we surround ourselves with intelligent people. We can let them spout their brilliant ideas and then we pretend those ideas were our own original thoughts. This is what makes you and I absolutely brilliant. Also I may have made the masterly decision to use a thesaurus, because I cannot think of other words for intelligent by myself. This is the highest IQ move I can think of.
The three of you should do more videos together
I know this is late to the discussion, but I think the cyclone is pretty interesting because I see it a lot in early game play for shutting down all ins, sniping queens or ravagers or individual protoss units.
I'm glad its above the banshee.
I find the disruptor commentary to be very interesting as well. I think the disruptor is high value, not necessary because it "does really well" so much as it completely shuts down non-micro playstyle. It forces a player to look at the fight the entire time because if they look away, they lose 4-8 units per shot. I feel that some units just fundamentally alter the physical mechanics of playing the game.
On the other hand if your micro is below par you just don't play bio. Tanks, mines, storms and lurkers are all made to counter bio. Splash damage is a staple in all 3 matchups. If you can't deal with the splash then the army should be at least a big part made of mech.
But the disruptor has to be that lethal because mines are just that lethal and bio is very high dps. That's the design they wanted for the game and I personally don't like that insane of a lethality.
I would love to see a terran as uthermal or reynor in here
If you guys would do a SC2 podcast i would tune in every episode. Love you guys!
Love to see more Scarlett collabs, I love the energy/vibe she brings to the conversation.
I think this Tierlist shows pretty well how great SC2 is balanced.
How many units are useable and viable in different situations, got pros/cons and even some which arent often used, got somehow their place where you want to know them in your arsenal for any situation. Absolutly great :)
I wish PiG was part of this podcast. This was already extremely entertaining, I feel like PiG would have made it that much better
So goooooooooooooooooooood, loved this pro team
Man we're lucky we had Scarlett and Lambo, I feel like if we had harstem alone making the tier list it would have been a disaster lol
Had this pop up on my feed. We need more of these group discussions, hope you guys are able to get together again soon for something like this.
It's so wild watching after coming back from a huge SC2 break. I haven't watch in ages, and haven't seen any tournaments post LOTV. The tier list is almost reverse of what people used to play
How can you not love Harstem? He's a world class SCII player, he's absolutely hysterical, he helps ban cheaters at the highest level, he partakes in SCII reworks with the developers, he brings pros together on his channel in a format that is both educational and hilarious making the community stronger. If Frost Giant was smart they would hire harstem to make their game the best it could be.
I was entertained by this. Lambo was only willing to accept S tier for warp prism.
"can morph into Hellbats, that's a down side" 10/10, best joke
I love the casual vibe.
so much high level discussion that falls out of a tier list, so fun to listen to
You've interrupted my Winter cast with this banger, I have no choice but to watch right away
You'll never know what the Bronze League Heroes did this time.
ive played SC2 3 times and I enjoyed this immensely.
Normally i skip to the end of tier lists, but i really loved this one. Watched the whole thing
You should make tier list for every matchup PvP, PvT, PvZ, TvZ, TvT, ZvZ
Love the video, I think it would be S+ tier if Thermy was here. To me, the medivac belongs right after the stalker. Reaper is D tier, I think you’re undervaluing scouting and you can make 5 of them in TvT
Reapers can outright win the game in TvT with proxy 2 rax which was the justification for some other A and S tier units. Otherwise, I agreed with most things, even if it was slightly biased against Terran ;)
I'm so glad they're putting the immortal where it belongs. I watched someone do a ranking recently, I think maybe it was tasteless, and he put the immortal in S tier. I was just sitting here thinking "It's not 2012 any more". I'd have gone low B probably, but calling the immortal S tier absolutely blew my mind.
Harstem: higher?
Lambo: definitely lower
Scarlett: I think lower
Harstem: higher it is
25:18 Harstems look to the camera says enough about Scarlett claim 😂
28:03 scarlett I feel you. Always trying swarmhosts cause theyre fun and cute. But in Platin theyre actually working some time : )
Right when I thought I'd seen it all SC2 wise, Harstem makes this!
Awesome.
i know it's a meme, but Drone, Probe and SCV are all S tier, cuz they are the most important units in the game.
SCV is S tier because 5 more HP and can repair other units, damn thor SCV pushes
Probe and Drone B tier lol
@@knoxtibia3330 Using that logic, probe is S tier for cannon rush
Harstem: I think the prism is worse than a bailing.
Lambo: What? Are you high?
Scarlett: lol
Me: lmfao
It is definitely worse than banes... Look at serrals games...
One unit in and I'm already laughing, harstem hovers over D tier while the other two are singing the adept's praises. Peak comedy
I love this "can one shot every single unit in the game, except some"
I really hate how colosus can be so bad. It either needs a reduction in mineral/gas cost, or at least up the shield/hp
MAKE A SECOND ROUND OF THIS!!! things have changed. plus its nice to watch peeps geeking out on SC2
Scarlet is forever the hive queen!
Very enjoyable video! Usually I dont watch these 1h+ videos, but this time the cast was too good to pass! 5/5 would watch again
Great Vid, i bet Marc would be a great guest as well! Terran repres. ^^
It's fun how much the ranking changes depending on skill level. "Masters league or below, carrier is DOUBLE S tier" KEKW
It's mind-boggling to me that the adept is rated so highly with their logic. The unit itself is used for scouting only and for 2-3 all-ins against zerg, nothing else. It being higher rated than a phoenix and a raven or even an immortal is incomprehensible to me :D Adepts are higher than reapers but otherwise identically useless as soon as the game timer hits 7 minutes. They're not even used in lategame glaive runbys, although they could be. Vipers also need to be higher imo, their potential is super good and their cost-effectiveness usually very high because the spells have so much range.
Haven't played sc2 since HotS, just finished LotV campaign and this list is completely mind blowing.
I loved this! Very wholesome and informative!
Banes not being S is crazy. If you removed banes from the game, zergs would have a 0% win rate vs terran. You recognize that Marines are the best unit, but their biggest counter in the whole game is overlooked. Other than that, I think the list is pretty good. I think Hellbats get a bad rep because people use them incorrectly, not because they are bad, but I can live with that.
Zerg (14)
S: 2
A: 3
B: 1
C: 6
D: 1
F: 1
Protoss (17)
S: 2
A: 3
B: 7
C: 2
D: 1
F: 2
Terran (15)
S: 2
A: 5
B: 1
C: 3
D: 3
F: 1
Thanks Harstem Scarlett and the other guy
This was awesome
I'm shocked the reaper wasn't rated. You can do all-in's with it.
How could they disrespect their teammate Byun's signature unit like that!?
it was mainly for the current pro meta i'd say.
THEY HEAL!
but the unit itself is trash tho. all-in`s are pretty weak. u just need it to scout
@@cornelionjukes5879 And you don't even need it to scout, it's quite useful but unnecessary. I think D is exactly where it belongs.
what they mentioned at the end is what i actually wanted to see ranked: how good is a single unit, regardless of where it's played or cost. if a unit the moment you make it ends the game, it should be s, regardless of in games if you get to that point.
I really like videos like these. It's just, we love the game, but it don't have to be only about watching the actual thing though
My S tier would be different: Marines still #1, because they can do everything; Lings #2, since their DPS per mineral is huge, ling runbys are a constant threat, and they can burrow to delay the opponent expanding, you might be able to pure-ling up to masters; queens #3, because they're the Zerg crutch unit - tanky healers, great anti-air, quick wall-off, they're powerful because the devs didn't give Zerg a good early-game anti-air, ghosts #4 because many people complain how OP they are, but also how necessary they are; Vipers #5 because 'yoink!', parasitic bomb > storm, and the 'no tanks allowed' spell - they make expensive units a waste of money; infestors #6 because neural motherships and thors, chain fungals vs. air or cloaked units, just don't move-command them into the opponent's army; Disruptors #7 because they zone and harass so hard; and swarm hosts (with nydus) #8 because a decently sized locust wave can take out a base, and that same sized wave can stall an opponent's attack long enough for you to reinforce, retreat, base trade, etc. for low APM and low risk. The basic idea for the S-tier in my mind is that when they come out, the game becomes a test of whether or not the opponent can stop that unit. Can they stop your vipers before you yoink their army into oblivion? Can they find your infestors before you fungal their marines and get a traitor ghost to EMP the rest of them? Can they stop your disruptors before their income drops too low to recover? The exceptions would be the marine, zergling, and queen - since they're always present, they characterize the matchup as opposed to recharacterizing it.
I'm a very casual StarCraft Player but was glued to this discussion!
Other games: happy when my units are S tier
Starcraft: happy when my units are in F tier
"Don't be an idiot. Don't act like an idiot." Damn, Harstem's really trying to keep me from commenting! This was very amusing though. Haha
the literal ultimate sc 2 content
All things considered this is a pretty agreeable list. Personally I think stalker should be S tier, it's the most versatile unit (besides marine).
Immortals are absolutely an A+ unit. All-in, all-in defense, cheese, cheese defense, excellent in the mid-game, great late game against heavy units and buildings…
they're pretty bad vs zerg. compared to the hots version. hots was S.
I was thinking about this and it's just because they don't get their shots off. If the sentry would be popular again the immortal might return as well.
The only glaring issue is that it is a Robo unit, meaning you have to make either Immortal or Disruptor, and passing mid-game pretty much everyone would make Disruptor over Immortal, other than against Ultra. By itself as a unit, Immortal is needed to break down the opponent defensive point, or creating the anchor point for the army. So I think thats should already put them on the same level with the Adept/Archon, aka the B-tier.
lambo calling the raven the ghost of tvt is proof harstem needs more terran friends
I think Tempests are actually underrated as a lategame option. So many times protoss players run 5+ carriers into a bunch of anti air. Idk I’m a noob but in pro matches it often looks like tempests are pretty strong.
I would like to see a tier list of build order
This is an awesome idea!
I agree, maybe one race at the time
Hamster, My Baby You really should do another one, the meta has changed since the last patch.
That was great!
sc2 grad seminar; I listened to the whole thing. great panel Harstem.
It's great watching these 2 professional gamers and this professional idiot (Harstem) in this video together.
Got to see my fave starcraft 2 player again as well which is great. Alongside Harstem and lambo of course.
Don't worry Harstem, I also identify as a professional idiot.
12:35
Harstem really jumping on the grenade here lmao
This is so funny seeing this right before the balance patch came out
I don't know how colossi made it above D tier. for the time to build and overall cost each, and the number you need for them to even be useful(which is usually about 5 or so), you might as well have made carriers instead(and they would have performed better overall). sure with a prism you can micro them back, but if they manage to snipe the prism with the colossi in it you kinda just auto-lose with that push, no? especially if terran has any number of vikings, a raven or two and a tank line. idk, to me, like muta and phoenix, it's too niche of a unit for C tier. I feel like those three belong in D. top of D for sure, but still just D. 🤷
I think the best way to organize a tier list that is this long is to organize the units into their lettered categories, and then sort each lettered category on its own.
Banes are literally one of the best units in the game...a light A Harstem???? WHat!?!??!
This tier list is really off with some units. Banelings are easily S, same with Vipers. Ghosts are great but only used in two matchups, how can it be S? More like A. A lot of examples like this lol.
Obligatory I love Scarlett, she’s one of the few reasons I’m proud to be a Canadian 🎉😊
Put her in more of your content I liked and commented twice cus I’m a Scarlett Stan QUEEN OF BLADES!!
he*
@@williamcraig1743 "wow got em haha i'm 12 btw"
I can't believe Harstem said the tank is worse than the colossus in pvt lol. The tank is just like the colossus in that it helps you survive against pushes, but you can actually do legitimately scary pushes based around the tank as well.
to put the carrier, a unit that requires minerals to rebuilt interceptors, above the battle cruisser, a unit that can teleport and yamato units, it's a travesty! Most PvZ late games end up with protoss loosing to Zerg when choosing carriers because they get abducted and distroyed, or simply end up without any funds to rebuilt interceptors due to the hydra- fungal combination, and the lack of minerals on the map. In fact, it's the only unit in the whole game twhich after is being built, requires extra minerals in order to be used. This makes it a solid F unit.
Lol, even in pro games carrier can literally carry the game. They are much easier to use than counter. And in the lower leagues they stomp most players while requiring zero skill to use.
Awesome video!
Could anyone point to a good video, or article/blog that goes more into depth on units. When to use them, when to not and why, how to use them etc?
Thanks!
Isnt lib im PvT super vital? With range and +2 you need to build the terrible tempest and in TvT it pushes the tank lines away. In TvZ the tank performs better but you can mix in a few of them. I think D is a bit low considering PvT, lib ghost is insane
Harstem following up on his promise of never inviting Terrans to fun things again!
I understand the arguments against Mutalisk, but I would rate it mid B Tier. The unit is very expensive, but the real determining factor is the APM requirements of the unit. To use the Mutalisk effectively you need to be playing "Archon" mode because a Mutalisk requires very high APM and baby sitting because they die so easily, and cost so much gas to replace.
Am I the only one impressed with how it's comfortable for Lambo to sit with his hand(s) up behind his back? He sits like this for like 3/4 of the video with small changes. xD
I was expecting Prism to be highest S.
You can dodge seeker missiles. If you're good enough 3 stalkers can kill 8 marauders and never get hit. It's mobile after the upgrade. 0 gas. You can warp in gateway units near it for all your charges. It makes blink stalker even more obnoxious. It enables DT to be useful without the blink. It only delays building the worst unit in the Protoss roster (colossus). Every unit is so much better and can get lots more value with a Prism nearby. The way people play against Prism they treat it like a liberator, never go near the field without critical mass. Keeps every player on their toes even more than medivac drops cuz zealots aren't made of paper.
Think the probe should definitely be on the list. Even in the pro meta, probes end games and change the direction of the entire game.
42:10 harstem talks like a cars salesman
Also, it’s ridiculous that you don’t put reaper in. It’s not the same as observer. It’s similar to (but worse than) adept- used for scouting and harassment, falls off hard after the early game. Can be used as an all in. I’d give a D tier
I love the background! Good job
Funny to hear harstem talk about the disruptor cuz I think he's 1 of the best at controlling ruptors if not the best