It's important to remember that there is a silent majority of us in the community that don't complain about balance on Reddit. Please don't be discouraged by those reddit comments! Appreciate all the great content Lambo, I'm rooting for you! ❤
@@viceroy___ Ignoring idiots is essential for a happy life. Jokes aside, that wasn't the point. I'm saying even if there's a 1000 up votes on some reddit comment that's a fraction of the sc2 community. It's not an assumed silent majority, it's a real majority. Out of the 70k people who watch the WSC finals a tiny fraction engage in reddit balance whining.
Pretty insane how harsh people can sometimes be. If you lose it's 100% you being trash, if you do well it's 100% your race being broken. Although there's always going to be a middle ground where both skill and balance matter, it's still silly to see the hate you received lol
Imagine the amount of hate Terran players are getting. The entire StarCraft sub is just hating on anything and everything Terran. They sound like a cult. Not trying to take away from lambo's experience. But man the community is just starting to disgust me.
People’s responses to patch 5.0.11 were absolutely comical to me and it brought a new level of perception to me for how most of the community complaining about balance patches either 1) dont actually read or 2) dont understand the patch notes. Terran literally had ghosts buffed (thats right the most powerful unit in the game flat out buffed), liberators buffed, vikings buffed, cyclones buffed, raven buffed, banshees buffed and had their sensor tower reduced from 30-27 range as their only nerf (these were massive buffs and they shifted the meta). Meanwhile Zerg gets creep spread and vision nerfed, ravegers nerfed, vipers nerfed, brood lords nerfed and everyone is screaming “ZERG CABAL” because hydralisks got a 5% movement speed buff off of creep and their damage point reduced (more than half of the people didnt even know what the damage point was when this patch came out) Now again Zerg is getting nerfed but this time nerfing core units like banelings and infestors. Its done very cleverly as well to try and disguise the nerfs, which most of the community wont see through with the whole misdirection of, “well yeah we nerfed this but the upgrade to get it is cheaper now so we also buffed it.” Balance doesn’t work that way. There isn’t a Terran player in the game that would be ok if Stim duration was reduced to 8 seconds and combat shields only gave +5 hp but both upgrades were made cheaper. Some of the Zerg in the balance team need to draw a hard line on some things they just refuse to touch. They could have just increased the HP +5 on all SCVs, probes and drones instead of nerfing banelings and concomitantly every composition Zerg can competitively play. These Zerg nerfs go through, Guaranteed you will watch Zerg representation disappear from the ladder more than it has already. This patch needed to fix the PvT match up and so far all I see this patch doing is massively nerfing Z against T for no reason.
"Some of the Zerg in the balance team need to draw a hard line on some things they just refuse to touch. They could have just increased the HP +5 on all SCVs, probes and drones instead" are you insane? "We dont touch the banes coz that will ruin zerg. So let's touch BASIC WORKERS INSTEAD! Yea that definitely wont break multiple other units"
Appreciate your detailed analysis on this patch. I think pros were actually not vocal enough in making predictions/commentary about the previous patch, which led to an information vacuum that was filled by random people on Reddit being way off base on the zerg cabal stuff while missing the real PvT issues. On this patch, my initial reaction was that Protoss got screwed again, but I wasn’t taking into account enough the Terran nerfs, and listening to PiG, Harstem, you, etc helped correct that initial reaction very quickly. All this is to say that I hope you do continue to make balance videos in the future even though you said you wouldn’t, because they fill an important role in this new community driven balancing system by keeping in check the panicked wild initial community reactions.
i actually called the pvt issues when they announced battery nerf and disruptor nerf. higher level players said i didn't know what i was talking about yet here we are with pvt being about 60% T favored
In response to the last part about toxic balance whining: I think it's important to remember that most people who watch and enjoy starcraft 2, and watch you play in tournaments, aren't of that type. But it also doesn't seem fair to expect you to know that without hearing it so i wanted to let you know that personally i really respect you as a player. Though i would never say that balance is perfect i've also never chalked up any of your performance up to a balance problem. Whenever i see players perform well in tournaments i respect them a lot for all the hard work that they put in to get to that point. Yet at the same time i only watch streams of players and tournaments, and never get the urge to go on reddit to announce my appreciation. Maybe i'll try to more frequently drop a comment of appreciation to my favorite players :)
I really dislike the change to the infestor, it's already an extremely hard to use and fragile unit and it's a pain vs ghost and HT, I would love to use it more, but it keeps getting worst. bane's life nerf is a really bad idea, like game breaking bad. The broodlord was an iconic unit, but in the state it is now, I dont even recognize it anymore. I though the trick that Dark used to siege terrans was amazing, but it got removed immediately, it would have been a good tool to stop terran from turtling, it required APM and the dammage was super low anyways. I dont know, as a D3 Zerg player, the game keeps getting less fun.
It's funny how we can't have banelings 1 shotting probes after 2 attack upgrades but widow mines do it with no upgrades and sometimes you can save them.
You atleast need like 10 apm to burrow a mine drop, and you can't even shift que a mine drop. You could say it's equivalent to a disruptor drop in terms of effort required to execute
@@rsanghi24 yeah effort isn't realy a thing in the game. Producing a reaper requiers less skill than defending one... balance is about positions in the game and how they play out on average between evenly skilled players (idealy). The entire whinning "my race is harder therfore every other race is op bs" is just so much small dick energy...
I feel the bigger issue is widow Mines aren't easily massable vs worker lines and they feel like a reward for a player not paying attention also is easily avoidable and at higher levels often avoided, where as watching the high levels, banelings going after mineral lines in late game usually result in a dead mineral line. Has a very unavoidable feel, despite pulling probes, having Sim city, and warping in to absorb banes. A single bane getting through is 16 dead probes. To me its wildy op for run bys, but the damage feels just right in actual fights... a hard unit to balance...
I really enjoyed how you organized the video, it made it easy to follow along and see some new points that I hadn't considered yet. I'm looking forward to the new patch if for no other reason than its new. Thanks for the video!
Glad to see a lambo video come out where he talks about the patch from his perspective! I find it very refreshing and grounding to hear him talk about the patch and explain his thoughts on the proposed changes!
Always appreciate your insights. Almost hurts to hear how the balance whine makes your hard work feel invalidated. From a spectator / fans point of view I have always just assumed that high level players are above all the nonsense that people stir up when its apparent that a lot of it is people just upset they can't climb higher and don't wanna accept that maybe that's on them. Worried about what these changes will mean for T v Z honestly. It's the funnest to play and watch from my POV and it didint seem like a matchup in need of any drastic changes. Felt like we just needed to bring toss up a little bit in terms of high level win rate. It is exciting to see so many changes to our beloved game though. Even if some of them might be a bit concerning.
"if there is a terran streamer that has 2000 viewers while there is a 4 tvt gsl going on who is telling all of his viewers that oh actually terran is really bad and terran is the one that actually needs buffs obviously the people are gonna come out of this believing him" who could he possibly mean with that KEKW
I love that you accidentally made it an hour. It's so easy to get talking. Changes always get your brain rolling over all the new possibilities. I enjoyed the long video. Makes the work day less boring.
As a new player coming into SC2 this year I find 85% of the community to be utterly unbearable man children, but find great company in the other 15%. Your builds and overall way of looking at Zerg for a training standpoint has single handedly landed me in masters within my first 5 months of playing. Like recently saw your best response to mech practiced it 30 games a day everyday for week straight haven’t dropped any games to it. Anyway just wanted to show you people still appreciate the knowledge and overall understanding you drop for the community I wish more people took the game more competitively for themselves rather than fanboying their race they’d learn it’s not the race it’s 99% of the time especially with current meta the player. I hope you’ve got some upcoming guides against bio after the baneling nerf kind of at a loss of compositions to play besides still jamming ling bane while zvt is already my worst matchup. Thanks for the video Lambo love from USA -Jmoneymagic
If you’re curious I’m referencing I believe your most recent games against gumiho in which you hit a roach timing and after seeing him make mass tank transitioned to broods and utter trashed the 5th base over and over again which clicked a lot of things for me after never understanding when it was time to transition. Thanks again for all the content hope to see more content from you and harstems Colab channel always a good laugh hearing you guys cast noobs
Thanks for all your thoughts Lambo! The unfortunate reality is that most of the playerbase in sc2 for whatever reason are just not very eloquent (or at least their online persona isn't). I overall agree with everything balance wise at the pro level, but have tested the patch with some friends (around 3.7k mmr NA). The widow mine change in particular feels like a middle finger. We all agree that two disruptor balls blowing up an entire army was not fun to play or watch, nor was it healthy as an interaction, and nerfed the radius of the disruptor. However in PvT we often see entire games lost to a non-commited (tech wise) mine drop. Of course drilling claws won't effect these mine drops, but the point is that widow mines in particular are fairly toxic to the game and yet they get a buff rather than re-adjustment or nerf. Widow mines are also by far the most infuriating unit to play against in lower elo. You might not have mentioned it because of it being a ridiculous change, but even the original cyclones (before the wierd armor/mech/hp adjustments) felt absolutely unstoppable in PvT. They were just hyper mobile kiting machines that require minimal micro to use optimally. The further changes felt insane to me to be added. This is coming from a race with blink stalkers, I can't imagine how zerg can possible deal with this off creep. Regardless, it's horrible design and issues would exacerbate in lower elo as the ultimate a-move no brain massable army.
It's a long video sure but it's a pleasure listening to you share your thoughts. Just had something else going on at the same time, rewind if I realized I missed something
For me, as a Protoss player, in theory this patch seems good, very promising. I was hoping maybe for one more meaty buff to Protoss, like immortal build time reduction or Collosus buff, but we shall see. I never liked playing aginst cyclones , even the old ones, so a bit scared of that. Funnily enough, for me in diamond , PvZ is my best matchup by far, and i really struggle in PvT so raven/emp nerfs sound very good.
Great points and I really appreciate how honestly you're speaking about this especially in regards to your own biases and emotions. The only thing that took me back a bit was the "Toss players are worse" part; it I understand it from a viewership growing perspective, but as a player it makes me a bit upset.
The 'we need to balance around the players take' is really bad. When you stop awarding merit based accomplishments and start adding training wheels because 'the good protoss retired'. What does that say about your game, and how do you think that feels to anyone joining the game. Imagine being told that simply because you picked a race over another you will have a substantive advantage from the start. That, definitionally, has to be substantive if we are balancing around 'players' and not the race. This is what zerg players constantly claim is going on btw vP. This is the source of so many low/mid level zergs frustrations. All the 'balance whining' is apparently true? and has been for a long time? Are we just admitting to this now?
You missed the part where he said "We just CAN'T objectively tell if one player won because he's the better player or because of balance". That's why we have to balance around the player base we have. Because that's the only measurement we have on how strong a race is. Maybe Protoss would do better if Stats, Zest etc. would still be playing, maybe not. Maybe Zerg would win everything if Life was still playing. That's just hypotheticals, we don't actually know how the race would perform if the player base would be different.
@@charoisaur594 Maybe you should re-watch the segment. What he said was if X,Y,Z players were still playing we'd have more than 1 protoss in X spot. and we HAVE TO BALANCE AROUND THAT. Your point is completely irrelevant idiot. Like this isn't just bad on its face value, this has likely been the design philosophy for awhile and we've seen where that's gotten us. Zerg is what, 20% of NA at most? at some point this kind of nonsense just destroys the game. Two years ago 60%~ of EU was GM. That's what happens when you balance around players and not around merit. I should add to this. Look, I REALLY love SC2, to this day it remains the only game I have ever preordered way back in 2010. I upgraded my PC just so I could run it way back then specifically for the game. I played BW and was partially responsible for one of the most popular UMS maps, period in BW. But playing sc2 is literally just a slap in my face. It's a hard game, it's a REALLY hard game, but that difficulty isn't symmetrical, meaning my work, effort and etc isn't relevant because of some arbitrary factor outside of my control. Like really? in your really hard game, I can just play the easy race and get free wins, and this is suppose to be competitive? Are you joking?
But when you see raynor. Playing actually fot fun as protoss and becaming top 10 toss . Or Maru playing toss and become top 1 toss on Korea xd its show somethong . And i Saw none toss player WHO do somethong simillar . And if toss is weaker then they should even make easier to swich for then
@@piodd4 Yeah, it's been obvious for a real time and this complaint has been covered up under the premise of 'stop balance whining' which also definitionally, is fucking gaslighting. You think something is imbalanced? one race is significantly easier than the others bro? No bro!, your crazy, the races are all balanced equally with skill and everything. Like to learn a game I not only have to be put at a disadvantage but also gaslit? You know, 'for the health of the game'. Is it any wonder the player base is retracting as hard as it is?
@@charoisaur594 Strategic/mental aspect is indeed hard to compare. Unfortunately mechanically it seems that protoss players are weaker on average than T/Z.
The Cyclone is a huge issue IMO. It's a super snowbally unit and once terrans figure out what engagements they can win, it ends up being a better marauder that shoots both air and ground. There is literally NOTHING except for +1 or +2 immortals that are cost effective against cyclones. Slap in a couple hellbats and now Immortals are no longer cost effective. This is going to be disastrous.
I think my biggest issue with the cyclones is how the game state looks after fights. If you have a Bio army that's barely big enough to beat a stalker army, the engagement will end with you only having ~10-20% of your bio left. With cyclones, fights can still be close, but after a close fight ~75-80% of the cyclones are still alive, which is super snowbally. At the pro level this isn't that huge as pros are better at judging fights, but your average masters player who misreads an engagement will end up losing everything for free, which just feels so bad. This is compounded by not being able to effectively disengage cyclones if the fight is going bad, your only choice is just to die
Thanks for the honest thoughts. As a mid-level player it is easy to look at a bad night and thinkg X race is OP! But I think all of us non-pros need to remember that any buff to any race doesn't affect us. If race X is buffed then those players currently at our MMR will move up and will be replced by lower X players now matching us. Big deal. The only think we need to judge a patch on is if it will somehow make the game less fun or toxic in some way. That isn't really a balance thing, just a "I want this game to be challenging and fun" thing. ANyway, thanks for all your hard work Lambo. Love you vids, especially your Harambo stuff with Harstem. I hope you achieve your goal and get to hold up a big trophy on stage one day!
Some people are accusong the council of having only a minority of protoss players. How true is that? (If you are allowed to tell us) Similarly, some poeple argue that protoss players may be less active in the council on average than members of the other races. Do you feel like this is true? (Btw I am not the one making these claims)
Big respect for puting this video, I imagine it's not easy to put yourself for potential blame when community situation is this rough (I'm even afraid checking reddit at this point jezus christ). I think what you and Harstem are doing right know is incredibily important for community to calm down a little bit. Perhaps it would be easier for everyone if more pros start doing it.
About that thing at the end. You want to win international tournament. I really think you can do it and you will. Actually from my perspective you are the master mind of Raynor, so technically you have already won. Keep up the good work!
you are one of the most brilliant minds starcraft 2 has ever seen, and i hold in high regard your builds and your strategic abilities as the best, you are the only zerg who can win someone who considered favored by strategy alone and thats a very hard things to do, its sad that your inability to stay focused during games takes the best of you and holds you back but that didnt stop you from leaving your mark in the starcraft scene and sure haters will hate, but that doesnt matter, because there are way more people who support you, and the people who matter can see what a good person you are and how much you put into starcraft. as for the haters, at some point they will grow up.
Baneling change barely affects Protoss tbh. The 5HP's only major change is for Stalkers if they are 2 attack upgrades ahead kill a baneling in 1 less shot and if Zerg had +1 and the archon had 0 attack upgrades banelings could survive an extra hit. (Storm still takes same amount of ticks to kill because of Baneling Passive regen and because all of Protoss units do more than 6 damage or 10 ranged means that any additional attack means it takes same amount as additional attacks as well and don't forget Protoss overkills a lot) Terran it affects almost every single early unit interaction. 1 Less hit on even upgrades for Marine, Siege tank (Unsieged), Cyclone (Test) , Reaper and Hellion (Hellion is a bigger change because now you need 4 hellions to kill a line of banelings instead of 5, really works out well for reactor.) While if ahead by 1 Upgrade Marauders and Ghosts kill in 1 less strike. Protoss doesn't really have the dps density to have this be anything but an extremely minimal change.
Come on, the number of times pro protoss players lost beacuase they suddenly lost 30 probes to oneshoting +2 banelings is huge. This a big, good change for Protoss.
Thanks for the video, it was very informative. I don't understand why people would hate on you specifically, you are a great guy. I personally enjoy your analytical way of thinking and talking about things very much
Grandmaster Lambo, you could design a counterattack on 3 types of terran attacks including battlecruisers, for example accumulating larvae and ore for a timed counterattack, I'm trying but your way of explaining and your perspective are impeccable, regards.
It's really important that we appreciate the community we have left and work to make the game enjoyable for everyone who has stuck through it all. Thanks for not shying away from addressing the issues with the Zerg changes. Personally I just want us all to be able to feel like Protoss is competitive again, and that changes being made are making the game more playable as the playerbase ages and settles into long-term maintenance mode. It's unfortunate bo1 ladder cheeses shape so much of peoples' opinions on the overall game's state. Thanks for your video and covering all sides of the issue.
Seems like the central theme is that there's too many symbolic changes with no substance. I'm hard stuck at D3 so I zero authority, but I think we can agree that we want to see some bigger changes if only for the sake of seeing bigger changes.
Lambo is a breath of fresh air when it comes to this balance stuff. Don't listen to reddit shitters. Maybe I missed it, but I think these ZvT changes (excluding the cyclone) are going to make Terran very favored in the matchup. Banes without extra health will fail to connect with any bio once they field a significant army. The infestor change I also see as mostly a nerf as we won't be able to fungal marines to death. Are we supposed to mainly fight Terrans with hydras now? It seems like they have a problem with Zergs making banelings all game long while it's not a problem that Terran makes marines all game long.
Hello Lambo!:) I returned to this game a couple of month ago. I felt your feelings at the end. But you should know, that this is not exclusive to the starcraft community. Maybe you already know this but I wanted to share it with you, who knows it might help you. No matter what we do people will always do this. I live in Hungary and people do this all the time. They complain about everything and any time anybody actually does something they get mad about it and only criticise it. If you don't do anything that's a problem and if you do, that too. So maybe you should let these comments go. Our brain wired to only notice the negative things. Keep it up the good work and much love!:))
Hi lambo, Reddit dude here. I recently made a post about cyclones "legitimate concerns about the new cyclones" I tried to at least offer a balanced view and talk about my level so hopefully that doesn't come across too bad. Reddit is actually stupid and we got some truly brain-dead replies to the post so I can't even imagine how it must be for you guys. Honestly I really like that in this patch the balance team went a bit bigger. I just wish the community would provide feedback more constructively and not get out their pitchforks so fast. You guys are keeping the game Alive with your hard work so even though I don't agree with all choices made, I massively appreciate what you guys are doing and am personally willing to trust in the process and hopefully see even more large changes in the future too.
As a low diamond zerg player I'm very concerned about the baneling nerfs. I already had a hard enough time killing planetaries and baneling was the only decent way I was able to do it. But it was a costly investment. And now it's going to be even more expensive and they build like a dozen of them during a longer game. And also it makes it a lot easier for terran to go into mid and late game just by building a PF that I can't deal with as zerg till I'm at late game myself. This is what it feels like in my limited understanding of the game. And also as for getting my banelings stormed, I feel like if there's storms out then I might as well not build them because they will die without hitting anyting and it wouldn't require many storms and there's more situations where the baneling nerfs are going to make it really hard for us scrubs on the ladder.
Good analysis on all the matchups really but the comments on video game design are off. Yes, they are literally better at designing and balancing a game than the actual players but they should always take feedback from the pros first.
Awesome content boss! I'd love some more specific feedback on the (non-mirror) matchups: - What do you think about the cyclone changing into closer the stalker role (herO style?) - Slightly faster BLs and slightly nerfed festors could be a cool lategame mixup?! The Baneling nerf hurts tho. - Any chance a faster tempest is broken-ish? The soup nerf on disruptors might be critical? 8 disruptors is a _lot_ more than 4.
As a watcher and not a player since 2012, my big question after watching the last few years is this: If one of the goals of the patch was to stop the mass comps of Disruptors, Ghosts, and Lurkers, why were the methods so drastically different and so uneven? Disruptors got a direct supply nerf so it's harder to incorporate big numbers in armies. Lurkers got a massive survival nerf to make them trade even less efficiently. Ghosts got .... an EMP range nerf and Snipe nerf that frankly pushes Terrans to make more of them for the same results? Seems against the spirit of what they claimed to want.
You cant say that Protoss needs a buff only cause the Protoss are not winning at the Pro levels and then also say the Cyclone change is bad cause it is too strong at lower levels. If you are going to consider lower level players skill in balance then protoss never needed a buff.
I specifically did not think there was any real problem in pvz in the current patch, I think the top protosses did fine vs zerg and the only problem was the +2 banes, which thankfully got nerfed and that is amazing and really good for the game as well. but I'm still not very happy about the rest, I got a little excited when they said they wanted to make toss less reliant on disruptors, but I only saw a relatievly small disruptor nerf and an almost meaningless emp nerf. As a toss in pvt you still have to make disruptors, beacuse there is no other choice, You need splash damage in pvt and the other options just straight up suck, the collossus is really really bad, and there is basically no reason to ever build one past the early game. And the templar are still hard countered by ghosts, the emp nerf changes nothing in this regard, even before the enhanched shockwave upgrade was introduced tosses did not go for templar after ghosts were out. So if 2 out of 3 options become useless pretty early on in the game, then you shouldn't just nerf the only good option, you should give some other options. And the actually infruriating part for me is that the balance council seems sooooooooooo insanely keen on making cyclone rework a thing, when it is obviously busted and will break the game AND there is ZERO reason to change it in the first place, it was perfectly fine as it was. Like seriously... you are ready to risk cyclones breaking tvz, and making MECH VS TOSS of all things viable, but trying to make the colossus or the HT viable in mid and late game pvt is too much... On the other note I'm sorry to hear that you get so much hate and negativity, and even tho I know it is hard to not get effected by it and just simply ignore it, but I don't belive there is significant number of people in the community who think you just suck and the only reason you achive anything is just imbalance. Its just the worst of the worst in the community and they will probably move on to bitch about someone else after you. So all i wanted to say is that most of us really value your part in the game and the community. Holy shit this rant got a little longer then i expected XD
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this patch as well. Instead of doing a Protoss rework (something we really need for a unit like the Colossus which feels pretty much useless in the vast majority of situations against terran), they change the Mothership and nerf the disruptor. Toss *needed* buffs against terran. This patch so far isn't it.
I really liked the video and I think it is quite sad that you don't want to do these videos anymore, because I have always felt that you have a fair and constructive opinion. I have always cheered for you as a player and i generally hate it when people trash progamers everywhere because sometimes it becomes borderline mobbing and I think our community is small enough already. We don't need toxicity towards anyone who is passionate about this game. I hope some day I find the time to go to a HSC and buy you a beer and thank you in person for all the great games of yours.
Lambo don't listen to these scrubs. I am personally really thankful for the balance council. I think you guys are doing an excellent job as well as keeping the game interesting. So haters will be haters. Just ignore the background noise
Yeah reddit is just moronic they just say whatever they want knowing that they don't have to deal with the consequences. I'm not gonna mention the instances of Reddit being wrong about last patch and the one before because you already mentioned that, but even before the voidray patch not one person expected that the voidray patch was going to be annoying in PvT and PvZ. In fact, most people were saying that it's going to remain a garbage unit. So it just really shows that all they do is talk and insult knowing that they won't have to deal with any consequences. Im honestly considering saving every thread so I can later showcase how stupid every comment is going to be when the patch is out.
Hi Lambo, As a random player in masters league, i consider myself somewhat unbiased although admittedly, I do play terran much more than zerg or protoss. I'm not saying my ideas are perfect so take it with a grain of salt. I think the real thing holding back protoss is warp gate in general. Im not claiming to be a balance expert, but i do know one thing: warp gate is the reason gateway unit stats are considerably worse cost for cost than the other races. I do not know the perfect solution, but i think a change to the warp gate mechanics is needed. My best idea was to make it more expensive to warp in a gateway unit to a warp prism. I think its fairly obvious that gateway units, cost for cost are just weak compared to zerg and terran bio. A marine, for example has the same dps as a stalker WITHOUT stim. Zealots do not scale nearly as well as zerglings or marines after upgrades. Zealots and stalkers are just too weak because if they were any stronger with the current version of warp gate, gateway attacks would simply be SUPER OP. For example, a stalker warped in at a prism or a proxy gateway would now cost 25 more minerals. However if you warp in at home, the cost is the normal price. In return give each gateway unit slightly better stats. maybe more dmg, or more range, more speed, or something small to compensate. Play with the numbers and ideas in the test patch. Maybe increase gateway units ability to scale with upgrades. Maybe a sentry energy upgrade in the twighlight council. Im not saying these are the solutions, I'm just throwing out random ideas so you get the idea that warp gate is the problem. TLDR: Big nerf to Warp gate mechanic to limit aggressive potential, in return Buff core protoss units. I also think the baneling nerfs are too far. I like the implications it has for zvp, but for tvz, the marine is much stronger now. Look, i play terran, and im not afraid to say i think the marine is the single best unit in the game (maybe tied with the warp prism). I also think banes shouldnt one shot probes. I would not be opposed to giving probes a 5 hp buff, and have probe shield regeneration slower. It would stop widow mines from killing too many probes, and it would stop banelings from killing too many probes. In my book thats all toss needs, apart from a change in warp gate. They dont need a mothership or tempest buff. They dont need an EMP nerf. They dont need a door, and they dont need 7 tiny unnoticeable buffs that do almost nothing. Give em 5 hp, change warp gate, and call it a day. Im also a fan of allowing mech into the game somehow, but not a fan of reactor cyclones. I say put it back on the tech lab and make the build time faster. Not looking forward to cyclone spam especially considering how much easier it is than bio. As far as the hydra goes, i honestly think it still sucks but maybe i just suck at zerg lol. As far as im concerned the rest of the changes are small or relatively unimpactful or I just agree with them. Side note: ultras dont need 25 mineral cost reduction. They need to not be derpy. They're smaller now (yay) but make them walk over ling bane plz. Okay Lambo. Those are my low level thoughts. Roast me on stream? :)
Just wanted to let you know that I not like your personality (or at least the one that is visible to the public), which is a good mixture between professionalism and groundedness, but that I have immense respect for you as a player. I, for one, would be very happy for you to win a big tournament and see your heart work and indisputable dedication to this game pay off.
As a T player I like this patch. I think Zer got short end of the stick . I belive the good way to compensate that is to give mutalisk hive tech upgrade. Currently muta is good early but it gets worst quickly (kindda like lurker before hive tech upgrades). As a viewer I love TvZ muta-ling-bane vs bio mine.
I was under the impression that terran was better than zerg at the moment so it's a strange direction for the bulk of the changes to take. I would have done something pretty large for protoss vs terran, something small for protoss vs zerg, and either nothing or a small change for zerg vs terran. I also thought that the game was in a pretty bad state before this patch though, so I find it at least interesting that they're considering big redesigns. Taking the game from the position that it is in right now to something quite strongly different seems like a good idea, even if I have reservations on where they're ending up as well.
I think its easy to forget how much a unit change can move the needle in a game like sc2. A lot of time in this argument lambo says I dont think it really matters that much. The changes in this patch look very heavy handed and its going to be impossible to predict all the outcomes until we see lots of matches. Reddit gonna reddit :(
I feel like im really going to struggle zvt now :( If these changes go through Ill be finally calling it a day I think. Sounds like most of my zerg mates will too.
Fully agree with this analysis. Turtling thor+ghost+tank is nearly unbeatable, and the patch doesn't help. A good balance patch needs to give zerg tools to swarm or siege a defensive Terran position, similar to how zerg can swarm a bio+tank position with a good unit spread and timing. Right now Terran has all the range advantages, and most damage advantages.
14:02 --> "bro" --> Wtf are you talking about? And who are you talking to about?... Obvously your audience. 🤦♂ Calling strangers "bro" is such a toxic, weird and dumb habbit 🤦♂👎 Especially in a videogame enviroment.
I sorry to hear those morons on reddit got to you. Those people are insane, harassing people for trying to keep the game alive and fresh, passing judgements on who deserves to win what. They are lunatics, just check what they arguing outside of starcraft sub, makes it easier to accept, some people are just dumb. Pro-players do know better. People were complaining about creep for years, and when in the last patch CD was increased by 2 seconds, redditors complainted how it wouldn't change anything. And now after half of a year nobody brings this up. Wish you all best, mate. I've just subscribed, even though your guides too advanced for me, just out of appreciation to you!
Great video. I particularly agree with your comments on people saying protoss players are just worse. I think this is also reflected in the goals set out in the patch notes. It's not actually clearly defined what the council determines balance to be. e.g. if they had an objective that they want to see 1/3 of the top 8 being protoss on average across a year, then the question is simplier. Do you think this patch is significant enough to produce this outcome? However because we have no agreed view, as you say, all we can say is protoss is a bit better but is it enough? Enough for what? Nothing is defined.
@@piodd4I'm not saying that should be the goal. I'm saying there should be a clearer goal (which could be this or anything else). Atm there is no goal. So how does anyone say if anything is enough. My point is enough for what?
Saying pro players shouldn't balance a game because of personal interest conflicts is absolute nonsense in my opinion. It think it is nonsense because this is the core of democracy. The opposite is correct: This is the only way to make it work. Now, I agree that game designers have a different approach and know more in detail what they want to achieve in the first place. So, I believe the way it went with SC2 is the correct one: First letting the game designers come up with ideas and after a while the pro players do "the rest".
I think fungal damage and range should go back to their original values. After it became a skillshot and didn't freeze units in place, and now with the baneling nerfs, it's fine. Cyclones should require a techlab, then they're fine. Everything else is fine.
Ghosts should be tagged light. I am Zerg so I think this would mostly buff colossi against them, which is aligned with the intention of the patch. Banelings no longer affect light units in a special way so no changes there.
That is a completely ridiculous suggestion both vs protoss and vs zerg. Banelings also still have a lot of bonus damage vs light, it's just the ugprades that are different.
Protoss feels like they have no good vision options. Especially when terran scans, and creep/overlord changeling doesnt cost supply, while the observer/oracle does And the observers only abilities are looking at stuff, and looking at even more stuff but now i cant move
Wait, the Zerg cabal was more than a meme? Like people actually believed certain players some managed to influence balance changes? What was the claim how they managed to do this? Was there any evidence for these claims? Like e-mails or chatlogs for example?
Cyclone hellion was a big pain to play against in diamond zvt for me. Now it's gonna be even bigger pain. Glad i dont play zerg and 1v1 anymore. Though maybe all cyclones lock on on a single roach will help a bit. so terrans cannot just move back and kite with zero efforts. As for the spellcasters, would be really nice if vipers and even infestors had some really weak but auto attack. because ghosts has it (and not weak by any point, and HT has it as well, allowing tosses to a move their shit in a ball without even using control groups)
Ironically, I think it's more BM to the toss pro scene to say toss needs buffs because the pro players are bad than it is to say toss never wins because the pro players are bad. One is an opinion that may or may not be true. The other is a major change to race balance because you feel it needs to be done to keep the pro scene healthy. I'm not passing judgment one way or another I just find it a pretty hilarious situation, never heard of something like this is sport or comp gaming before. As a side note tho, if that is the case, what happens when a good toss player finally does show up or Serals rerolls to toss or something?
I believe I heard somewhere that most sc2 players play campaign, not 1v1. I wonder what the stats are on who watches pro sc2 games beyond a very informal lowko youtube poll I saw a year or two ago. I love playing the campaign, almost never play 1v1, and I watch every major tournament and sub to a bunch of sc2 casters and pros on twitch. As long as casters and pros are happy and the games are competitive, I'm a happy fan.
I wish there were more of these unit reworks. Seems like the pros are usually against big changes (Pros overall not specifically Lambo). A total rework for Cyclones is at least interesting and a new experience on the ladder. Rework of Voidray wasn't fun (for Z) but now it's gone. Would be cool to get a Z unit completely reworked next if just for the sake of a new experience on the ladder.
I'll take any they're willing to mess with too. I wonder if they'll struggle as much as blizzard did to set the cyclone stats. That unit seems like one of the hardest to make function the way they state they want it to.
Unit/race design balance is as important as map design balance, which is maybe something to make a video about itself. You talked about how a streamer that mainly plays one race could have 2,000 viewers and give them biased misinformation intending to get buffs for their race... That already happens with TLMC. And as we've seen before, the maps can easily change the intended direction of the unit balance. Unless 9 pro players (3 of each race) are willing to give up playing professionally to be unbiased unit balance designers and map pool deciders, this is never going to calm down. Can't have masses of people who don't fundamentally know the topic making the decisions about it, can't have a select few who know all about the topic able to personally gain a lot from making the decisions. Right now, Starcraft 2 is taking both of those and putting them together. Which, interestingly enough, it hasn't imploded, but it's definitely not like multiplying two negatives and getting a completely positive result. Anyone who says "the community should make the decisions because then they'll be happy with it" are either gaslighting people for person gain, or very uneducated on how that situation plays out. Honestly, it's such a low-tier gaslight considering the access to information we have in this day and age to be knowledgeable about history, that if someone said it to my face, I'd feel insulted that they believed there was any chance that I was stupid enough to believe it.
Since you asked for "my" opinion: 1) I rarely play 1v1 and I am only Plat 3. So I do not claim to be a good player. 2) My main concern is TvZ. Already Bio was stronger than Mech - which resulted in a huge majority of Bio. Now I can't imagine any terran NOT playing bio. This patch made bio - which was already stronger - a lot stronger. Because every counter vs bio got nerfed. Some of it drastically. So the already superior Bio composition got a buff. -> Mech already struggled mightily, now it seems absolutly inferior to bio. (Only if the cyclon turns out to be broken in TvZ would we see mech - and then the Cyclon will just win the game and it would get nerfed.) IMO the changes in the balance of ZvP and TvP are fine. The buffs to toss seem good to me and I guess we will have balanced games. The Zerg nerfs in PvZ are way less then the zerg nerfs in TvZ - because the baneling isn't that important in PvZ. But TvZ? Lurker nerf, infestor nerf, broodlord nerf - and most importantly baneling nerf. All huge nerfs especially against Bio. So the patch hit a matchup, that I consider as quite balanced by far the hardest. Why does the patch impact TvZ way harder tan PvZ? When it was supposed to be Toss that needed the buff? Nerfing every single unit that is used against bio at once - while nerfing bio extremly little (early/mid not at all!), that is IMO way over the top. Especially since no unit got an actual buff. A few seconds faster upgrade. A few minerals less - that doesn't effect your combat performance.
Second comment! btw those letters at 13:00 for example are too small for me to read so this vid becomes like audiobook, It's true I have small monitor and I watch at 720p but it possible to make those larger :P
I'm glad they are attempting bigger reworks of a few units but they have some balls with the cyclone. There's a reason blizzard changed that thing 10 times in the past. Maybe one of the most significantly reworked unit. They keep pretending it will fix mech in tvp but it will always be stronger against zerg so I don't see how it can be made to function against toss and not roll zerg. I never liked any eras that had reactor cyclones. They could use something there, but the cyclone seems not to do what they keep saying they want it to do. I'm glad they're trying still, but I wonder if they'll flounder like blizzard did. I mean it's been on tech lab, reactor, back twice, lock on, no lock, wait no lock on again. It's like if they kept making locusts ground again then back to flying.
can we talk about how the thumbnail implies that the viper may have been over buffed by pointing an arrow to the viper with a buff tag under it and exclaiming IS THIS OKAY??? when the viper just litteraly does less damage to buildings when it sucks them. Lambo had me excited thinking vipers got an actual buff. Vipers may not need a buff but for me they do cause I SUCK.
Still insan to me that the distuptor got nerfed so incredibly hard in this patch. Toss already had a terrible time and thry took away a bunch if splash damage so it has even less options against mass bio or mass infestors.
i used to have a 55% winratio on the last patch as zerg in diamond. now im 1-11 vs terran 1 win 11 loses. 27% winrate. this fking patch killed our ladder.
Why can't infestors fungal while burrowed but ghosts can EMP, snipe, nuke while cloaked? Why do terran and protoss have anti caster abilities in EMP and feedback but zerg has nothing? Why do medivacs have boost and heal, warp prisms have speed and warpins, but dropalords have only poop? Why are loaded medivacs immune to neural? Why does parasitic bomb not 1-shot a medivac, but snipe 1-shots dropalords? Parasitic bomb is a dot... you can boost away and unload. But its ok if zerg insta looses a full transport? Why do burrowed infestors have reduced vision range but cloaked ghosts do not? Why do ghosts cost less gas than infestors, vipers, or templars? Its the freakin best unit in TvZ and TvP... it should cost 200 gas not 125. Why is auto detonation on banelings so useless that in 1000s of pro games i never saw it being used EVER but perma cloaked widow mines are ok? Why are widow mines allowed to target air? WHY??? Arent marines, cyclones, vikings and thors enough anti air? Why do terran SCVs not get 1-shot by widow mines or 2-shot by adepts, but drones and probes do? But nerfing banelings because they 2-shot probes is fine? Why does zerg need 5+ units to defend a stupid creep tumor from 1 reaper? Why are queens unable to transfuse off creep, but there is no such restriction for any other race? If you get queen walked to death, it's a skill issue. Use bunkers and batteries... seriously. Queens are literalls the slowest unit in the game. If you dont scout it early ITS A SKILL ISSUE!!! Why do orbital scans cost so little, they eliminate the need for ravens entirely? You can snipe zerg overseer or protoss observer and voila... invulnerable ghosts, banshees and mines. Why is this strat forbidden against terran? SC2 has become a terran fanboy orgy. I dont know what the balance councils reasons are... but their decisions aint right.
Being a public figure (especially when you are somewhat succefull at what you do) draws a lot of haters, that's the way of the internet, and unfortunatly not sc2 specific. (and by the way, yes lambo is pretty darn good at what we does. Actually better than 99.9% of the other people trying to do the same thing).
But we see terrans or zerg swich for fun to toss and get top 10 toss xd or even Maru WHO get top 1 toss at Korea . And if toss is so weak then its should be easy for toss to change to zerg or toss and get good reault but we see none of this
04:00 it is there because - quoting Harstem - most people are idiots. They just count "buffs" and "nerfs" and do not care if the buff is noticable or not.
What is the hard counter to mutalisks? Marines. Thors. Ghosts. Cyclones widow mine. What is the zerg hard counter to marine medivac drops? With hard counter i mean: "prevents them from even aproaching your base". There is none. They can always escape. What is the hard counter to infestors? Ghosts. What is the hard counter to vipers? Ghosts. What is the zerg hard counter to ghost? There ís none. What is the hard counter to thor hellbat ghost? There is none. Does that sound like a balanced game state to you? At least infested terrans gave zerg an equivallently strong ability comperable to feedback / EMP. Infested terrans were strong against skytoss when protoss was too stupid to use storm.
41:00 - i don't like that argument. If one tennis player is so good to consistently win all tournaments, you don't go and nerf his equipment so you can have balanced tournaments.
that analogy doesn't work because all tennis players play with essentially the same tools. If they "nerf" his equipment (how does that work?) he can just switch to another one
@@halqthedarktemplar Nerf equipment? reduce the allowed size of the tennis bat? Is that really so hard to imagine? He has to play without shoes, blindfolded, his side of the court is 4 times larger, etc. And no, if the rules say that, you cant just switch to another one. Looks to me you seriously lack imagination and intelligence.
The responses to the last patch was exceedingly odd. Zerg essentially didnt get changed(lategame got a tad weaker), Protoss got nerfed everywhere(why?), terran lategame vs toss got nerfed but terran everything else got heavily buffed.
baneling and fungal, the only counter to bio both got nerfed, but widow mines which can kill whole armies, get spread around the map and make the game unplayable for 0 apm, and unlike baneling can fire repeatedly did not get nerfed and even got a buff is just crazy, TvZ just isnt fun anymore to play or to watch. broodlords are just a joke now, they struggle to kill anything even if you have 10 and the extra speed is worthless. Infestor having less range than emp now is pretty dumb when the only way to deal with ghosts is to fungal then hit them with banes, so ghosts the most broken unit in the game actually got more buffs vs Z, since both their counters are nerfed. at least zergs most meme and useless unit costs a tiny bit less though lol. T has the advantage now vs Z at every stage of the game. I have not seen one single person say 'oh that baneling nerf sure was needed!' but i see every game on twitch 1000 people saying what a joke mines are. when olivera is the world champion and we had TvT worlds finals i really dont think TvZ needed to be made more T favoured. Even the map pool all terran maps, ZvT used to be my fav matchup to play by far, now its the worst to play, it feels unfair at every stage of the game and now its a notable thing when a terran drops a map in the pro scene. Im considering quitting sc2 honestly it just isnt fun dancing around widow mines every game then losing with my army of direct counters to the most basic units T can make despite being up 30 workers and landing spells on their army. With regard to the disruptor nerf, nerfing anything protoss has is just dumb when protoss cant win anything for years and just makes terran more favoured since disruptor is the only real answer to bio.
I think pro players are the one who has more chances to do a good patch. They know the different units interation, problem of different race and how it evolves the matchup (start, mid and late game). Who can know best that they? The other point is that when there are two many variables to analyse, everybody has their own opinion about what "really" gonna happen. I am just gonna say: "kruger dunning effect" I played the game, I am diamon and I know that I cannot propose any changes, because I do not know enough, I think people who has such strong opinions on Reddit, should be more humble, and just accept that they do not know :) (The other point is read the reddit comment with a beer I just take them as a meme, but of course, if u name pop up that must be really annoying/upsetting!)
It's important to remember that there is a silent majority of us in the community that don't complain about balance on Reddit. Please don't be discouraged by those reddit comments!
Appreciate all the great content Lambo, I'm rooting for you! ❤
Yeah let's ignore people that says things and just assume to know what the assumed 'silent majority' wants. Smort!
@@viceroy___ Ignoring idiots is essential for a happy life. Jokes aside, that wasn't the point. I'm saying even if there's a 1000 up votes on some reddit comment that's a fraction of the sc2 community.
It's not an assumed silent majority, it's a real majority. Out of the 70k people who watch the WSC finals a tiny fraction engage in reddit balance whining.
Thanks for your thoughts on this Lambo. Clear headed and logical analysis like always
wrr, no such thing as disrespx or shouldx or lessx or etc, cepuxuax, outx, sayx, can outx, sx infix any and any perfx any nmw
Pretty insane how harsh people can sometimes be. If you lose it's 100% you being trash, if you do well it's 100% your race being broken. Although there's always going to be a middle ground where both skill and balance matter, it's still silly to see the hate you received lol
Yeah I just ignore chat 99% of the time 😂
Imagine the amount of hate Terran players are getting.
The entire StarCraft sub is just hating on anything and everything Terran. They sound like a cult.
Not trying to take away from lambo's experience.
But man the community is just starting to disgust me.
That's just Reddit for you, it tends to be its own echo chamber with pretty much any community, so don't worry
People’s responses to patch 5.0.11 were absolutely comical to me and it brought a new level of perception to me for how most of the community complaining about balance patches either 1) dont actually read or 2) dont understand the patch notes.
Terran literally had ghosts buffed (thats right the most powerful unit in the game flat out buffed), liberators buffed, vikings buffed, cyclones buffed, raven buffed, banshees buffed and had their sensor tower reduced from 30-27 range as their only nerf (these were massive buffs and they shifted the meta).
Meanwhile Zerg gets creep spread and vision nerfed, ravegers nerfed, vipers nerfed, brood lords nerfed and everyone is screaming “ZERG CABAL” because hydralisks got a 5% movement speed buff off of creep and their damage point reduced (more than half of the people didnt even know what the damage point was when this patch came out)
Now again Zerg is getting nerfed but this time nerfing core units like banelings and infestors. Its done very cleverly as well to try and disguise the nerfs, which most of the community wont see through with the whole misdirection of, “well yeah we nerfed this but the upgrade to get it is cheaper now so we also buffed it.” Balance doesn’t work that way. There isn’t a Terran player in the game that would be ok if Stim duration was reduced to 8 seconds and combat shields only gave +5 hp but both upgrades were made cheaper.
Some of the Zerg in the balance team need to draw a hard line on some things they just refuse to touch. They could have just increased the HP +5 on all SCVs, probes and drones instead of nerfing banelings and concomitantly every composition Zerg can competitively play.
These Zerg nerfs go through, Guaranteed you will watch Zerg representation disappear from the ladder more than it has already. This patch needed to fix the PvT match up and so far all I see this patch doing is massively nerfing Z against T for no reason.
"Some of the Zerg in the balance team need to draw a hard line on some things they just refuse to touch. They could have just increased the HP +5 on all SCVs, probes and drones instead"
are you insane? "We dont touch the banes coz that will ruin zerg. So let's touch BASIC WORKERS INSTEAD! Yea that definitely wont break multiple other units"
Appreciate your detailed analysis on this patch.
I think pros were actually not vocal enough in making predictions/commentary about the previous patch, which led to an information vacuum that was filled by random people on Reddit being way off base on the zerg cabal stuff while missing the real PvT issues.
On this patch, my initial reaction was that Protoss got screwed again, but I wasn’t taking into account enough the Terran nerfs, and listening to PiG, Harstem, you, etc helped correct that initial reaction very quickly.
All this is to say that I hope you do continue to make balance videos in the future even though you said you wouldn’t, because they fill an important role in this new community driven balancing system by keeping in check the panicked wild initial community reactions.
i actually called the pvt issues when they announced battery nerf and disruptor nerf. higher level players said i didn't know what i was talking about yet here we are with pvt being about 60% T favored
In response to the last part about toxic balance whining: I think it's important to remember that most people who watch and enjoy starcraft 2, and watch you play in tournaments, aren't of that type. But it also doesn't seem fair to expect you to know that without hearing it so i wanted to let you know that personally i really respect you as a player. Though i would never say that balance is perfect i've also never chalked up any of your performance up to a balance problem. Whenever i see players perform well in tournaments i respect them a lot for all the hard work that they put in to get to that point. Yet at the same time i only watch streams of players and tournaments, and never get the urge to go on reddit to announce my appreciation. Maybe i'll try to more frequently drop a comment of appreciation to my favorite players :)
I really dislike the change to the infestor, it's already an extremely hard to use and fragile unit and it's a pain vs ghost and HT, I would love to use it more, but it keeps getting worst. bane's life nerf is a really bad idea, like game breaking bad. The broodlord was an iconic unit, but in the state it is now, I dont even recognize it anymore. I though the trick that Dark used to siege terrans was amazing, but it got removed immediately, it would have been a good tool to stop terran from turtling, it required APM and the dammage was super low anyways. I dont know, as a D3 Zerg player, the game keeps getting less fun.
It's funny how we can't have banelings 1 shotting probes after 2 attack upgrades but widow mines do it with no upgrades and sometimes you can save them.
Terran conglomerate
You atleast need like 10 apm to burrow a mine drop, and you can't even shift que a mine drop.
You could say it's equivalent to a disruptor drop in terms of effort required to execute
@@rsanghi24 yeah effort isn't realy a thing in the game. Producing a reaper requiers less skill than defending one... balance is about positions in the game and how they play out on average between evenly skilled players (idealy). The entire whinning "my race is harder therfore every other race is op bs" is just so much small dick energy...
@@rsanghi24equal in effort, far less an investment material wise.
I feel the bigger issue is widow Mines aren't easily massable vs worker lines and they feel like a reward for a player not paying attention also is easily avoidable and at higher levels often avoided, where as watching the high levels, banelings going after mineral lines in late game usually result in a dead mineral line. Has a very unavoidable feel, despite pulling probes, having Sim city, and warping in to absorb banes. A single bane getting through is 16 dead probes. To me its wildy op for run bys, but the damage feels just right in actual fights... a hard unit to balance...
I really enjoyed how you organized the video, it made it easy to follow along and see some new points that I hadn't considered yet. I'm looking forward to the new patch if for no other reason than its new. Thanks for the video!
Glad to see a lambo video come out where he talks about the patch from his perspective!
I find it very refreshing and grounding to hear him talk about the patch and explain his thoughts on the proposed changes!
Always appreciate your insights. Almost hurts to hear how the balance whine makes your hard work feel invalidated. From a spectator / fans point of view I have always just assumed that high level players are above all the nonsense that people stir up when its apparent that a lot of it is people just upset they can't climb higher and don't wanna accept that maybe that's on them.
Worried about what these changes will mean for T v Z honestly. It's the funnest to play and watch from my POV and it didint seem like a matchup in need of any drastic changes. Felt like we just needed to bring toss up a little bit in terms of high level win rate. It is exciting to see so many changes to our beloved game though. Even if some of them might be a bit concerning.
"if there is a terran streamer that has 2000 viewers while there is a 4 tvt gsl going on who is telling all of his viewers that oh actually terran is really bad and terran is the one that actually needs buffs obviously the people are gonna come out of this believing him" who could he possibly mean with that KEKW
Yes always slighly embarassing to be his countryman...
@@tegridyfarms6197 who are they referring to?
Hey Lambo, Sc2 Reddit is a small portion of the community. F those guys. Imma support my boy to the end.
I love that you accidentally made it an hour. It's so easy to get talking. Changes always get your brain rolling over all the new possibilities. I enjoyed the long video. Makes the work day less boring.
etc wrg, no such thing as dx or winx or havex or deserx or etc
As a new player coming into SC2 this year I find 85% of the community to be utterly unbearable man children, but find great company in the other 15%. Your builds and overall way of looking at Zerg for a training standpoint has single handedly landed me in masters within my first 5 months of playing. Like recently saw your best response to mech practiced it 30 games a day everyday for week straight haven’t dropped any games to it. Anyway just wanted to show you people still appreciate the knowledge and overall understanding you drop for the community I wish more people took the game more competitively for themselves rather than fanboying their race they’d learn it’s not the race it’s 99% of the time especially with current meta the player. I hope you’ve got some upcoming guides against bio after the baneling nerf kind of at a loss of compositions to play besides still jamming ling bane while zvt is already my worst matchup. Thanks for the video Lambo love from USA -Jmoneymagic
If you’re curious I’m referencing I believe your most recent games against gumiho in which you hit a roach timing and after seeing him make mass tank transitioned to broods and utter trashed the 5th base over and over again which clicked a lot of things for me after never understanding when it was time to transition. Thanks again for all the content hope to see more content from you and harstems Colab channel always a good laugh hearing you guys cast noobs
wrg
Bio is a pain in the ass. I'm a xerg player low play. Finally figured out how to beat mech consistently. Those multiprong bio drops though is hard
I think you missed that fungal damage is reduced vs terran, which is actually quite a big deal
Thanks for all your thoughts Lambo!
The unfortunate reality is that most of the playerbase in sc2 for whatever reason are just not very eloquent (or at least their online persona isn't).
I overall agree with everything balance wise at the pro level, but have tested the patch with some friends (around 3.7k mmr NA). The widow mine change in particular feels like a middle finger. We all agree that two disruptor balls blowing up an entire army was not fun to play or watch, nor was it healthy as an interaction, and nerfed the radius of the disruptor. However in PvT we often see entire games lost to a non-commited (tech wise) mine drop. Of course drilling claws won't effect these mine drops, but the point is that widow mines in particular are fairly toxic to the game and yet they get a buff rather than re-adjustment or nerf. Widow mines are also by far the most infuriating unit to play against in lower elo.
You might not have mentioned it because of it being a ridiculous change, but even the original cyclones (before the wierd armor/mech/hp adjustments) felt absolutely unstoppable in PvT. They were just hyper mobile kiting machines that require minimal micro to use optimally. The further changes felt insane to me to be added. This is coming from a race with blink stalkers, I can't imagine how zerg can possible deal with this off creep. Regardless, it's horrible design and issues would exacerbate in lower elo as the ultimate a-move no brain massable army.
Yeah but they NERF serall
Good stuff Lambo! Thanks for being on the balance council.
Like im glad so many others have said, your games, instructional videos and analysis have helped me enjoy the game more, and its appreciated.
It's a long video sure but it's a pleasure listening to you share your thoughts. Just had something else going on at the same time, rewind if I realized I missed something
For me, as a Protoss player, in theory this patch seems good, very promising. I was hoping maybe for one more meaty buff to Protoss, like immortal build time reduction or Collosus buff, but we shall see. I never liked playing aginst cyclones , even the old ones, so a bit scared of that. Funnily enough, for me in diamond , PvZ is my best matchup by far, and i really struggle in PvT so raven/emp nerfs sound very good.
Great points and I really appreciate how honestly you're speaking about this especially in regards to your own biases and emotions. The only thing that took me back a bit was the "Toss players are worse" part; it I understand it from a viewership growing perspective, but as a player it makes me a bit upset.
The 'we need to balance around the players take' is really bad. When you stop awarding merit based accomplishments and start adding training wheels because 'the good protoss retired'.
What does that say about your game, and how do you think that feels to anyone joining the game. Imagine being told that simply because you picked a race over another you will have a substantive advantage from the start. That, definitionally, has to be substantive if we are balancing around 'players' and not the race.
This is what zerg players constantly claim is going on btw vP. This is the source of so many low/mid level zergs frustrations. All the 'balance whining' is apparently true? and has been for a long time? Are we just admitting to this now?
You missed the part where he said "We just CAN'T objectively tell if one player won because he's the better player or because of balance". That's why we have to balance around the player base we have. Because that's the only measurement we have on how strong a race is.
Maybe Protoss would do better if Stats, Zest etc. would still be playing, maybe not.
Maybe Zerg would win everything if Life was still playing. That's just hypotheticals, we don't actually know how the race would perform if the player base would be different.
@@charoisaur594 Maybe you should re-watch the segment. What he said was if X,Y,Z players were still playing we'd have more than 1 protoss in X spot. and we HAVE TO BALANCE AROUND THAT. Your point is completely irrelevant idiot.
Like this isn't just bad on its face value, this has likely been the design philosophy for awhile and we've seen where that's gotten us. Zerg is what, 20% of NA at most? at some point this kind of nonsense just destroys the game. Two years ago 60%~ of EU was GM. That's what happens when you balance around players and not around merit.
I should add to this. Look, I REALLY love SC2, to this day it remains the only game I have ever preordered way back in 2010. I upgraded my PC just so I could run it way back then specifically for the game. I played BW and was partially responsible for one of the most popular UMS maps, period in BW.
But playing sc2 is literally just a slap in my face. It's a hard game, it's a REALLY hard game, but that difficulty isn't symmetrical, meaning my work, effort and etc isn't relevant because of some arbitrary factor outside of my control. Like really? in your really hard game, I can just play the easy race and get free wins, and this is suppose to be competitive? Are you joking?
But when you see raynor. Playing actually fot fun as protoss and becaming top 10 toss . Or Maru playing toss and become top 1 toss on Korea xd its show somethong . And i Saw none toss player WHO do somethong simillar . And if toss is weaker then they should even make easier to swich for then
@@piodd4 Yeah, it's been obvious for a real time and this complaint has been covered up under the premise of 'stop balance whining' which also definitionally, is fucking gaslighting. You think something is imbalanced?
one race is significantly easier than the others bro? No bro!, your crazy, the races are all balanced equally with skill and everything.
Like to learn a game I not only have to be put at a disadvantage but also gaslit? You know, 'for the health of the game'.
Is it any wonder the player base is retracting as hard as it is?
@@charoisaur594 Strategic/mental aspect is indeed hard to compare. Unfortunately mechanically it seems that protoss players are weaker on average than T/Z.
The Cyclone is a huge issue IMO. It's a super snowbally unit and once terrans figure out what engagements they can win, it ends up being a better marauder that shoots both air and ground.
There is literally NOTHING except for +1 or +2 immortals that are cost effective against cyclones. Slap in a couple hellbats and now Immortals are no longer cost effective. This is going to be disastrous.
I think my biggest issue with the cyclones is how the game state looks after fights. If you have a Bio army that's barely big enough to beat a stalker army, the engagement will end with you only having ~10-20% of your bio left. With cyclones, fights can still be close, but after a close fight ~75-80% of the cyclones are still alive, which is super snowbally.
At the pro level this isn't that huge as pros are better at judging fights, but your average masters player who misreads an engagement will end up losing everything for free, which just feels so bad. This is compounded by not being able to effectively disengage cyclones if the fight is going bad, your only choice is just to die
Thanks for the honest thoughts. As a mid-level player it is easy to look at a bad night and thinkg X race is OP! But I think all of us non-pros need to remember that any buff to any race doesn't affect us. If race X is buffed then those players currently at our MMR will move up and will be replced by lower X players now matching us. Big deal. The only think we need to judge a patch on is if it will somehow make the game less fun or toxic in some way. That isn't really a balance thing, just a "I want this game to be challenging and fun" thing.
ANyway, thanks for all your hard work Lambo. Love you vids, especially your Harambo stuff with Harstem. I hope you achieve your goal and get to hold up a big trophy on stage one day!
Some people are accusong the council of having only a minority of protoss players.
How true is that? (If you are allowed to tell us)
Similarly, some poeple argue that protoss players may be less active in the council on average than members of the other races. Do you feel like this is true?
(Btw I am not the one making these claims)
Big respect for puting this video, I imagine it's not easy to put yourself for potential blame when community situation is this rough (I'm even afraid checking reddit at this point jezus christ). I think what you and Harstem are doing right know is incredibily important for community to calm down a little bit. Perhaps it would be easier for everyone if more pros start doing it.
About that thing at the end. You want to win international tournament. I really think you can do it and you will. Actually from my perspective you are the master mind of Raynor, so technically you have already won. Keep up the good work!
you are one of the most brilliant minds starcraft 2 has ever seen, and i hold in high regard your builds and your strategic abilities as the best, you are the only zerg who can win someone who considered favored by strategy alone and thats a very hard things to do, its sad that your inability to stay focused during games takes the best of you and holds you back but that didnt stop you from leaving your mark in the starcraft scene and sure haters will hate, but that doesnt matter, because there are way more people who support you, and the people who matter can see what a good person you are and how much you put into starcraft. as for the haters, at some point they will grow up.
Baneling change barely affects Protoss tbh.
The 5HP's only major change is for Stalkers if they are 2 attack upgrades ahead kill a baneling in 1 less shot and if Zerg had +1 and the archon had 0 attack upgrades banelings could survive an extra hit. (Storm still takes same amount of ticks to kill because of Baneling Passive regen and because all of Protoss units do more than 6 damage or 10 ranged means that any additional attack means it takes same amount as additional attacks as well and don't forget Protoss overkills a lot)
Terran it affects almost every single early unit interaction. 1 Less hit on even upgrades for Marine, Siege tank (Unsieged), Cyclone (Test) , Reaper and Hellion (Hellion is a bigger change because now you need 4 hellions to kill a line of banelings instead of 5, really works out well for reactor.)
While if ahead by 1 Upgrade Marauders and Ghosts kill in 1 less strike.
Protoss doesn't really have the dps density to have this be anything but an extremely minimal change.
Come on, the number of times pro protoss players lost beacuase they suddenly lost 30 probes to oneshoting +2 banelings is huge. This a big, good change for Protoss.
@@firestarter000001 I was talking about the HP change?
The attack damage change also isn't that major but it is good qol.
Thanks for the video, it was very informative. I don't understand why people would hate on you specifically, you are a great guy. I personally enjoy your analytical way of thinking and talking about things very much
Grandmaster Lambo, you could design a counterattack on 3 types of terran attacks including battlecruisers, for example accumulating larvae and ore for a timed counterattack, I'm trying but your way of explaining and your perspective are impeccable, regards.
It's really important that we appreciate the community we have left and work to make the game enjoyable for everyone who has stuck through it all. Thanks for not shying away from addressing the issues with the Zerg changes. Personally I just want us all to be able to feel like Protoss is competitive again, and that changes being made are making the game more playable as the playerbase ages and settles into long-term maintenance mode. It's unfortunate bo1 ladder cheeses shape so much of peoples' opinions on the overall game's state. Thanks for your video and covering all sides of the issue.
Seems like the central theme is that there's too many symbolic changes with no substance.
I'm hard stuck at D3 so I zero authority, but I think we can agree that we want to see some bigger changes if only for the sake of seeing bigger changes.
Lambo is a breath of fresh air when it comes to this balance stuff. Don't listen to reddit shitters. Maybe I missed it, but I think these ZvT changes (excluding the cyclone) are going to make Terran very favored in the matchup. Banes without extra health will fail to connect with any bio once they field a significant army. The infestor change I also see as mostly a nerf as we won't be able to fungal marines to death. Are we supposed to mainly fight Terrans with hydras now? It seems like they have a problem with Zergs making banelings all game long while it's not a problem that Terran makes marines all game long.
Hello Lambo!:) I returned to this game a couple of month ago. I felt your feelings at the end. But you should know, that this is not exclusive to the starcraft community. Maybe you already know this but I wanted to share it with you, who knows it might help you. No matter what we do people will always do this. I live in Hungary and people do this all the time. They complain about everything and any time anybody actually does something they get mad about it and only criticise it. If you don't do anything that's a problem and if you do, that too. So maybe you should let these comments go. Our brain wired to only notice the negative things. Keep it up the good work and much love!:))
Hi lambo, Reddit dude here. I recently made a post about cyclones "legitimate concerns about the new cyclones" I tried to at least offer a balanced view and talk about my level so hopefully that doesn't come across too bad. Reddit is actually stupid and we got some truly brain-dead replies to the post so I can't even imagine how it must be for you guys. Honestly I really like that in this patch the balance team went a bit bigger. I just wish the community would provide feedback more constructively and not get out their pitchforks so fast.
You guys are keeping the game Alive with your hard work so even though I don't agree with all choices made, I massively appreciate what you guys are doing and am personally willing to trust in the process and hopefully see even more large changes in the future too.
I watched the whole video and I liked it a lot. Don't forget to like the video guys.
Man, you are one of the best players out there. Huge fan. Keep it up bro!
As a low diamond zerg player I'm very concerned about the baneling nerfs. I already had a hard enough time killing planetaries and baneling was the only decent way I was able to do it. But it was a costly investment. And now it's going to be even more expensive and they build like a dozen of them during a longer game. And also it makes it a lot easier for terran to go into mid and late game just by building a PF that I can't deal with as zerg till I'm at late game myself. This is what it feels like in my limited understanding of the game. And also as for getting my banelings stormed, I feel like if there's storms out then I might as well not build them because they will die without hitting anyting and it wouldn't require many storms and there's more situations where the baneling nerfs are going to make it really hard for us scrubs on the ladder.
Good analysis on all the matchups really but the comments on video game design are off. Yes, they are literally better at designing and balancing a game than the actual players but they should always take feedback from the pros first.
Awesome content boss! I'd love some more specific feedback on the (non-mirror) matchups:
- What do you think about the cyclone changing into closer the stalker role (herO style?)
- Slightly faster BLs and slightly nerfed festors could be a cool lategame mixup?! The Baneling nerf hurts tho.
- Any chance a faster tempest is broken-ish? The soup nerf on disruptors might be critical? 8 disruptors is a _lot_ more than 4.
As a watcher and not a player since 2012, my big question after watching the last few years is this:
If one of the goals of the patch was to stop the mass comps of Disruptors, Ghosts, and Lurkers, why were the methods so drastically different and so uneven? Disruptors got a direct supply nerf so it's harder to incorporate big numbers in armies. Lurkers got a massive survival nerf to make them trade even less efficiently. Ghosts got .... an EMP range nerf and Snipe nerf that frankly pushes Terrans to make more of them for the same results?
Seems against the spirit of what they claimed to want.
You cant say that Protoss needs a buff only cause the Protoss are not winning at the Pro levels and then also say the Cyclone change is bad cause it is too strong at lower levels. If you are going to consider lower level players skill in balance then protoss never needed a buff.
I specifically did not think there was any real problem in pvz in the current patch, I think the top protosses did fine vs zerg and the only problem was the +2 banes, which thankfully got nerfed and that is amazing and really good for the game as well. but I'm still not very happy about the rest, I got a little excited when they said they wanted to make toss less reliant on disruptors, but I only saw a relatievly small disruptor nerf and an almost meaningless emp nerf. As a toss in pvt you still have to make disruptors, beacuse there is no other choice, You need splash damage in pvt and the other options just straight up suck, the collossus is really really bad, and there is basically no reason to ever build one past the early game. And the templar are still hard countered by ghosts, the emp nerf changes nothing in this regard, even before the enhanched shockwave upgrade was introduced tosses did not go for templar after ghosts were out. So if 2 out of 3 options become useless pretty early on in the game, then you shouldn't just nerf the only good option, you should give some other options. And the actually infruriating part for me is that the balance council seems sooooooooooo insanely keen on making cyclone rework a thing, when it is obviously busted and will break the game AND there is ZERO reason to change it in the first place, it was perfectly fine as it was. Like seriously... you are ready to risk cyclones breaking tvz, and making MECH VS TOSS of all things viable, but trying to make the colossus or the HT viable in mid and late game pvt is too much...
On the other note I'm sorry to hear that you get so much hate and negativity, and even tho I know it is hard to not get effected by it and just simply ignore it, but I don't belive there is significant number of people in the community who think you just suck and the only reason you achive anything is just imbalance. Its just the worst of the worst in the community and they will probably move on to bitch about someone else after you. So all i wanted to say is that most of us really value your part in the game and the community.
Holy shit this rant got a little longer then i expected XD
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this patch as well. Instead of doing a Protoss rework (something we really need for a unit like the Colossus which feels pretty much useless in the vast majority of situations against terran), they change the Mothership and nerf the disruptor. Toss *needed* buffs against terran. This patch so far isn't it.
I really liked the video and I think it is quite sad that you don't want to do these videos anymore, because I have always felt that you have a fair and constructive opinion. I have always cheered for you as a player and i generally hate it when people trash progamers everywhere because sometimes it becomes borderline mobbing and I think our community is small enough already. We don't need toxicity towards anyone who is passionate about this game.
I hope some day I find the time to go to a HSC and buy you a beer and thank you in person for all the great games of yours.
Lambo don't listen to these scrubs. I am personally really thankful for the balance council. I think you guys are doing an excellent job as well as keeping the game interesting. So haters will be haters. Just ignore the background noise
Yeah reddit is just moronic they just say whatever they want knowing that they don't have to deal with the consequences.
I'm not gonna mention the instances of Reddit being wrong about last patch and the one before because you already mentioned that, but even before the voidray patch not one person expected that the voidray patch was going to be annoying in PvT and PvZ. In fact, most people were saying that it's going to remain a garbage unit. So it just really shows that all they do is talk and insult knowing that they won't have to deal with any consequences.
Im honestly considering saving every thread so I can later showcase how stupid every comment is going to be when the patch is out.
Hi Lambo,
As a random player in masters league, i consider myself somewhat unbiased although admittedly, I do play terran much more than zerg or protoss. I'm not saying my ideas are perfect so take it with a grain of salt.
I think the real thing holding back protoss is warp gate in general. Im not claiming to be a balance expert, but i do know one thing: warp gate is the reason gateway unit stats are considerably worse cost for cost than the other races. I do not know the perfect solution, but i think a change to the warp gate mechanics is needed.
My best idea was to make it more expensive to warp in a gateway unit to a warp prism. I think its fairly obvious that gateway units, cost for cost are just weak compared to zerg and terran bio. A marine, for example has the same dps as a stalker WITHOUT stim. Zealots do not scale nearly as well as zerglings or marines after upgrades. Zealots and stalkers are just too weak because if they were any stronger with the current version of warp gate, gateway attacks would simply be SUPER OP. For example, a stalker warped in at a prism or a proxy gateway would now cost 25 more minerals. However if you warp in at home, the cost is the normal price. In return give each gateway unit slightly better stats. maybe more dmg, or more range, more speed, or something small to compensate. Play with the numbers and ideas in the test patch. Maybe increase gateway units ability to scale with upgrades. Maybe a sentry energy upgrade in the twighlight council. Im not saying these are the solutions, I'm just throwing out random ideas so you get the idea that warp gate is the problem.
TLDR: Big nerf to Warp gate mechanic to limit aggressive potential, in return Buff core protoss units.
I also think the baneling nerfs are too far. I like the implications it has for zvp, but for tvz, the marine is much stronger now. Look, i play terran, and im not afraid to say i think the marine is the single best unit in the game (maybe tied with the warp prism). I also think banes shouldnt one shot probes. I would not be opposed to giving probes a 5 hp buff, and have probe shield regeneration slower. It would stop widow mines from killing too many probes, and it would stop banelings from killing too many probes. In my book thats all toss needs, apart from a change in warp gate. They dont need a mothership or tempest buff. They dont need an EMP nerf. They dont need a door, and they dont need 7 tiny unnoticeable buffs that do almost nothing. Give em 5 hp, change warp gate, and call it a day.
Im also a fan of allowing mech into the game somehow, but not a fan of reactor cyclones. I say put it back on the tech lab and make the build time faster. Not looking forward to cyclone spam especially considering how much easier it is than bio.
As far as the hydra goes, i honestly think it still sucks but maybe i just suck at zerg lol.
As far as im concerned the rest of the changes are small or relatively unimpactful or I just agree with them.
Side note: ultras dont need 25 mineral cost reduction. They need to not be derpy. They're smaller now (yay) but make them walk over ling bane plz.
Okay Lambo. Those are my low level thoughts. Roast me on stream? :)
Just wanted to let you know that I not like your personality (or at least the one that is visible to the public), which is a good mixture between professionalism and groundedness, but that I have immense respect for you as a player. I, for one, would be very happy for you to win a big tournament and see your heart work and indisputable dedication to this game pay off.
As a T player I like this patch. I think Zer got short end of the stick . I belive the good way to compensate that is to give mutalisk hive tech upgrade. Currently muta is good early but it gets worst quickly (kindda like lurker before hive tech upgrades). As a viewer I love TvZ muta-ling-bane vs bio mine.
I was under the impression that terran was better than zerg at the moment so it's a strange direction for the bulk of the changes to take. I would have done something pretty large for protoss vs terran, something small for protoss vs zerg, and either nothing or a small change for zerg vs terran.
I also thought that the game was in a pretty bad state before this patch though, so I find it at least interesting that they're considering big redesigns. Taking the game from the position that it is in right now to something quite strongly different seems like a good idea, even if I have reservations on where they're ending up as well.
I think its easy to forget how much a unit change can move the needle in a game like sc2. A lot of time in this argument lambo says I dont think it really matters that much. The changes in this patch look very heavy handed and its going to be impossible to predict all the outcomes until we see lots of matches. Reddit gonna reddit :(
I feel like im really going to struggle zvt now :( If these changes go through Ill be finally calling it a day I think. Sounds like most of my zerg mates will too.
Fully agree with this analysis. Turtling thor+ghost+tank is nearly unbeatable, and the patch doesn't help. A good balance patch needs to give zerg tools to swarm or siege a defensive Terran position, similar to how zerg can swarm a bio+tank position with a good unit spread and timing. Right now Terran has all the range advantages, and most damage advantages.
The balance argument can easily be resolved by simply having a match where all players have to play each race in rotation.
14:02 --> "bro" --> Wtf are you talking about? And who are you talking to about?... Obvously your audience. 🤦♂ Calling strangers "bro" is such a toxic, weird and dumb habbit 🤦♂👎 Especially in a videogame enviroment.
shut up bro
I sorry to hear those morons on reddit got to you. Those people are insane, harassing people for trying to keep the game alive and fresh, passing judgements on who deserves to win what. They are lunatics, just check what they arguing outside of starcraft sub, makes it easier to accept, some people are just dumb. Pro-players do know better. People were complaining about creep for years, and when in the last patch CD was increased by 2 seconds, redditors complainted how it wouldn't change anything. And now after half of a year nobody brings this up.
Wish you all best, mate. I've just subscribed, even though your guides too advanced for me, just out of appreciation to you!
Great video. I particularly agree with your comments on people saying protoss players are just worse. I think this is also reflected in the goals set out in the patch notes. It's not actually clearly defined what the council determines balance to be. e.g. if they had an objective that they want to see 1/3 of the top 8 being protoss on average across a year, then the question is simplier. Do you think this patch is significant enough to produce this outcome?
However because we have no agreed view, as you say, all we can say is protoss is a bit better but is it enough? Enough for what? Nothing is defined.
This ja stupid. Equal chance are ok but force equal reault is unfair.
@@piodd4I'm not saying that should be the goal. I'm saying there should be a clearer goal (which could be this or anything else). Atm there is no goal. So how does anyone say if anything is enough. My point is enough for what?
I think they should have buffed hi Templar as trade for disruptor. I think hi Templar would give more versatility to help in tvp
Saying pro players shouldn't balance a game because of personal interest conflicts is absolute nonsense in my opinion. It think it is nonsense because this is the core of democracy. The opposite is correct: This is the only way to make it work. Now, I agree that game designers have a different approach and know more in detail what they want to achieve in the first place. So, I believe the way it went with SC2 is the correct one: First letting the game designers come up with ideas and after a while the pro players do "the rest".
I think fungal damage and range should go back to their original values. After it became a skillshot and didn't freeze units in place, and now with the baneling nerfs, it's fine.
Cyclones should require a techlab, then they're fine. Everything else is fine.
Ghosts should be tagged light. I am Zerg so I think this would mostly buff colossi against them, which is aligned with the intention of the patch. Banelings no longer affect light units in a special way so no changes there.
That is a completely ridiculous suggestion both vs protoss and vs zerg. Banelings also still have a lot of bonus damage vs light, it's just the ugprades that are different.
@@mothrahlurker788 not on the new patch. Banelings stop doing extra damage to light. The tag would be immaterial for them
Protoss feels like they have no good vision options. Especially when terran scans, and creep/overlord changeling doesnt cost supply, while the observer/oracle does
And the observers only abilities are looking at stuff, and looking at even more stuff but now i cant move
Wait, the Zerg cabal was more than a meme? Like people actually believed certain players some managed to influence balance changes? What was the claim how they managed to do this? Was there any evidence for these claims? Like e-mails or chatlogs for example?
Kinda crazy how tunnel visioned are these people in reddit comments. Lol.
Actual tinfoil hat conspiracy
Cyclone hellion was a big pain to play against in diamond zvt for me. Now it's gonna be even bigger pain. Glad i dont play zerg and 1v1 anymore. Though maybe all cyclones lock on on a single roach will help a bit. so terrans cannot just move back and kite with zero efforts. As for the spellcasters, would be really nice if vipers and even infestors had some really weak but auto attack. because ghosts has it (and not weak by any point, and HT has it as well, allowing tosses to a move their shit in a ball without even using control groups)
Keep it up, lambo!! Appreciate the analysis. Ignore the haters. They dumb.
Huge thumbs up! Reddit haters have been destroyed
Ironically, I think it's more BM to the toss pro scene to say toss needs buffs because the pro players are bad than it is to say toss never wins because the pro players are bad.
One is an opinion that may or may not be true. The other is a major change to race balance because you feel it needs to be done to keep the pro scene healthy.
I'm not passing judgment one way or another I just find it a pretty hilarious situation, never heard of something like this is sport or comp gaming before.
As a side note tho, if that is the case, what happens when a good toss player finally does show up or Serals rerolls to toss or something?
I believe I heard somewhere that most sc2 players play campaign, not 1v1. I wonder what the stats are on who watches pro sc2 games beyond a very informal lowko youtube poll I saw a year or two ago. I love playing the campaign, almost never play 1v1, and I watch every major tournament and sub to a bunch of sc2 casters and pros on twitch. As long as casters and pros are happy and the games are competitive, I'm a happy fan.
cyclone is supposed to be a straight up mech buff. since bio against protoss is significantly weaker now.
how exactly is bio significantly weaker??
I wish there were more of these unit reworks. Seems like the pros are usually against big changes (Pros overall not specifically Lambo). A total rework for Cyclones is at least interesting and a new experience on the ladder. Rework of Voidray wasn't fun (for Z) but now it's gone. Would be cool to get a Z unit completely reworked next if just for the sake of a new experience on the ladder.
I'll take any they're willing to mess with too. I wonder if they'll struggle as much as blizzard did to set the cyclone stats. That unit seems like one of the hardest to make function the way they state they want it to.
Snipe being Nerf will make it so it takes 2 shots to kill Swarm Host.
thanks for sharing king we made it to the end
Unit/race design balance is as important as map design balance, which is maybe something to make a video about itself. You talked about how a streamer that mainly plays one race could have 2,000 viewers and give them biased misinformation intending to get buffs for their race... That already happens with TLMC. And as we've seen before, the maps can easily change the intended direction of the unit balance.
Unless 9 pro players (3 of each race) are willing to give up playing professionally to be unbiased unit balance designers and map pool deciders, this is never going to calm down. Can't have masses of people who don't fundamentally know the topic making the decisions about it, can't have a select few who know all about the topic able to personally gain a lot from making the decisions. Right now, Starcraft 2 is taking both of those and putting them together. Which, interestingly enough, it hasn't imploded, but it's definitely not like multiplying two negatives and getting a completely positive result.
Anyone who says "the community should make the decisions because then they'll be happy with it" are either gaslighting people for person gain, or very uneducated on how that situation plays out. Honestly, it's such a low-tier gaslight considering the access to information we have in this day and age to be knowledgeable about history, that if someone said it to my face, I'd feel insulted that they believed there was any chance that I was stupid enough to believe it.
Since you asked for "my" opinion:
1) I rarely play 1v1 and I am only Plat 3. So I do not claim to be a good player.
2) My main concern is TvZ.
Already Bio was stronger than Mech - which resulted in a huge majority of Bio.
Now I can't imagine any terran NOT playing bio. This patch made bio - which was already stronger - a lot stronger. Because every counter vs bio got nerfed. Some of it drastically. So the already superior Bio composition got a buff. -> Mech already struggled mightily, now it seems absolutly inferior to bio.
(Only if the cyclon turns out to be broken in TvZ would we see mech - and then the Cyclon will just win the game and it would get nerfed.)
IMO the changes in the balance of ZvP and TvP are fine. The buffs to toss seem good to me and I guess we will have balanced games.
The Zerg nerfs in PvZ are way less then the zerg nerfs in TvZ - because the baneling isn't that important in PvZ.
But TvZ? Lurker nerf, infestor nerf, broodlord nerf - and most importantly baneling nerf.
All huge nerfs especially against Bio.
So the patch hit a matchup, that I consider as quite balanced by far the hardest.
Why does the patch impact TvZ way harder tan PvZ? When it was supposed to be Toss that needed the buff?
Nerfing every single unit that is used against bio at once - while nerfing bio extremly little (early/mid not at all!), that is IMO way over the top.
Especially since no unit got an actual buff. A few seconds faster upgrade. A few minerals less - that doesn't effect your combat performance.
Oh! This is a very welcome video, thanks Lambo!
Second comment!
btw those letters at 13:00 for example are too small for me to read so this vid becomes like audiobook, It's true I have small monitor and I watch at 720p but it possible to make those larger :P
I'm glad they are attempting bigger reworks of a few units but they have some balls with the cyclone. There's a reason blizzard changed that thing 10 times in the past. Maybe one of the most significantly reworked unit. They keep pretending it will fix mech in tvp but it will always be stronger against zerg so I don't see how it can be made to function against toss and not roll zerg.
I never liked any eras that had reactor cyclones. They could use something there, but the cyclone seems not to do what they keep saying they want it to do. I'm glad they're trying still, but I wonder if they'll flounder like blizzard did. I mean it's been on tech lab, reactor, back twice, lock on, no lock, wait no lock on again. It's like if they kept making locusts ground again then back to flying.
can we talk about how the thumbnail implies that the viper may have been over buffed by pointing an arrow to the viper with a buff tag under it and exclaiming IS THIS OKAY??? when the viper just litteraly does less damage to buildings when it sucks them. Lambo had me excited thinking vipers got an actual buff. Vipers may not need a buff but for me they do cause I SUCK.
We love you lmbo don’t listen to the StarCraft haters
Great analysis
Still insan to me that the distuptor got nerfed so incredibly hard in this patch. Toss already had a terrible time and thry took away a bunch if splash damage so it has even less options against mass bio or mass infestors.
i used to have a 55% winratio on the last patch as zerg in diamond. now im 1-11 vs terran 1 win 11 loses. 27% winrate. this fking patch killed our ladder.
Why can't infestors fungal while burrowed but ghosts can EMP, snipe, nuke while cloaked?
Why do terran and protoss have anti caster abilities in EMP and feedback but zerg has nothing?
Why do medivacs have boost and heal, warp prisms have speed and warpins, but dropalords have only poop?
Why are loaded medivacs immune to neural?
Why does parasitic bomb not 1-shot a medivac, but snipe 1-shots dropalords? Parasitic bomb is a dot... you can boost away and unload. But its ok if zerg insta looses a full transport?
Why do burrowed infestors have reduced vision range but cloaked ghosts do not?
Why do ghosts cost less gas than infestors, vipers, or templars? Its the freakin best unit in TvZ and TvP... it should cost 200 gas not 125.
Why is auto detonation on banelings so useless that in 1000s of pro games i never saw it being used EVER but perma cloaked widow mines are ok?
Why are widow mines allowed to target air? WHY??? Arent marines, cyclones, vikings and thors enough anti air?
Why do terran SCVs not get 1-shot by widow mines or 2-shot by adepts, but drones and probes do? But nerfing banelings because they 2-shot probes is fine?
Why does zerg need 5+ units to defend a stupid creep tumor from 1 reaper?
Why are queens unable to transfuse off creep, but there is no such restriction for any other race? If you get queen walked to death, it's a skill issue. Use bunkers and batteries... seriously. Queens are literalls the slowest unit in the game. If you dont scout it early ITS A SKILL ISSUE!!!
Why do orbital scans cost so little, they eliminate the need for ravens entirely? You can snipe zerg overseer or protoss observer and voila... invulnerable ghosts, banshees and mines. Why is this strat forbidden against terran?
SC2 has become a terran fanboy orgy. I dont know what the balance councils reasons are... but their decisions aint right.
7:41
*looks at 2 supply ghosts*
still waiting for the mine rework before I'll play sc2 again :D
Terran is so OP these days 😐
Being a public figure (especially when you are somewhat succefull at what you do) draws a lot of haters, that's the way of the internet, and unfortunatly not sc2 specific. (and by the way, yes lambo is pretty darn good at what we does. Actually better than 99.9% of the other people trying to do the same thing).
But we see terrans or zerg swich for fun to toss and get top 10 toss xd or even Maru WHO get top 1 toss at Korea . And if toss is so weak then its should be easy for toss to change to zerg or toss and get good reault but we see none of this
Terrans "
04:00 it is there because - quoting Harstem - most people are idiots.
They just count "buffs" and "nerfs" and do not care if the buff is noticable or not.
What is the hard counter to mutalisks? Marines. Thors. Ghosts. Cyclones widow mine.
What is the zerg hard counter to marine medivac drops? With hard counter i mean: "prevents them from even aproaching your base". There is none. They can always escape.
What is the hard counter to infestors? Ghosts.
What is the hard counter to vipers? Ghosts.
What is the zerg hard counter to ghost? There ís none.
What is the hard counter to thor hellbat ghost? There is none.
Does that sound like a balanced game state to you? At least infested terrans gave zerg an equivallently strong ability comperable to feedback / EMP. Infested terrans were strong against skytoss when protoss was too stupid to use storm.
41:00 - i don't like that argument. If one tennis player is so good to consistently win all tournaments, you don't go and nerf his equipment so you can have balanced tournaments.
that analogy doesn't work because all tennis players play with essentially the same tools. If they "nerf" his equipment (how does that work?) he can just switch to another one
@@halqthedarktemplar Nerf equipment? reduce the allowed size of the tennis bat? Is that really so hard to imagine? He has to play without shoes, blindfolded, his side of the court is 4 times larger, etc. And no, if the rules say that, you cant just switch to another one. Looks to me you seriously lack imagination and intelligence.
The responses to the last patch was exceedingly odd. Zerg essentially didnt get changed(lategame got a tad weaker), Protoss got nerfed everywhere(why?), terran lategame vs toss got nerfed but terran everything else got heavily buffed.
baneling and fungal, the only counter to bio both got nerfed, but widow mines which can kill whole armies, get spread around the map and make the game unplayable for 0 apm, and unlike baneling can fire repeatedly did not get nerfed and even got a buff is just crazy, TvZ just isnt fun anymore to play or to watch. broodlords are just a joke now, they struggle to kill anything even if you have 10 and the extra speed is worthless. Infestor having less range than emp now is pretty dumb when the only way to deal with ghosts is to fungal then hit them with banes, so ghosts the most broken unit in the game actually got more buffs vs Z, since both their counters are nerfed. at least zergs most meme and useless unit costs a tiny bit less though lol.
T has the advantage now vs Z at every stage of the game. I have not seen one single person say 'oh that baneling nerf sure was needed!' but i see every game on twitch 1000 people saying what a joke mines are. when olivera is the world champion and we had TvT worlds finals i really dont think TvZ needed to be made more T favoured. Even the map pool all terran maps, ZvT used to be my fav matchup to play by far, now its the worst to play, it feels unfair at every stage of the game and now its a notable thing when a terran drops a map in the pro scene. Im considering quitting sc2 honestly it just isnt fun dancing around widow mines every game then losing with my army of direct counters to the most basic units T can make despite being up 30 workers and landing spells on their army.
With regard to the disruptor nerf, nerfing anything protoss has is just dumb when protoss cant win anything for years and just makes terran more favoured since disruptor is the only real answer to bio.
So sick of zerg getting overall nerfs after nerfs after nerfs. Feels bad man.. guess we just have to play better.. right?
Yeah . They try make equal reault not equal choince . And its sutpid as f
Turns out, riverhs was right all along.
Turns out, he wasn't
I mean if you think that you didn't watch the video or listen what Lambo said
I think pro players are the one who has more chances to do a good patch. They know the different units interation, problem of different race and how it evolves the matchup (start, mid and late game). Who can know best that they? The other point is that when there are two many variables to analyse, everybody has their own opinion about what "really" gonna happen. I am just gonna say: "kruger dunning effect" I played the game, I am diamon and I know that I cannot propose any changes, because I do not know enough, I think people who has such strong opinions on Reddit, should be more humble, and just accept that they do not know :) (The other point is read the reddit comment with a beer I just take them as a meme, but of course, if u name pop up that must be really annoying/upsetting!)
No Rain is the forgotten. Rain would be thrashing if he didn't go to BW and then move on with his life.