I am finally learning empathy with boundaries. It still feels weird, I feel very selfish and unempathetic but then I remember that this is how healthy people behave, my people pleasing was pathological.
@kogepanm that makes total sense mentally but some people(like me) while mentally aknowledging that, their feelings tell them "you just made this person sad" etc etc it depends on how you're used to handling a situation some things become engrained i think and sometimes it might be true and i m in the wrong, probably most times i misinterpret since whenever i follow it up people tell me it was normal interaction
It's funny, I was taught the "golden rule" treat others how you want to be treated right? then what happens when you don't give a shit about yourself and have no self respect? I've hurt a couple and lost at least one freind because of this. But I want to learn empathy and care for other good people. I'll keep trying to treat people the way they deserve to be treated, with consideration, care, and thought regardless of how I'm feeling in the given moment. my emotions and upbringing have betrayed me. I'll seek awareness.
I feel for OP & understand their bitterness. Caring way too much almost killed me. When you go out of your way for someone & then they treat you like you’re disposable, it can really eff you up. Learning to redirect some of that abundant compassion I had for others back towards myself has been everything. Its a way to develop boundaries for your empathy too.
It hurts when you give everything in you to your partner for entire your just for them to remove you from their life over the span of a week or two. It really does make you feel disposable.
I just got out of a toxic relationship with a bipolar girlfriend, and this whole post resonated with me as well as Dr. K's main issues with compassion and setting a boundary. I hope anyone else who gets trapped into people taking advantage of others' empathy learn to get out, and it's okay to be compassionate from a distance!
This is genuinely helpful as a person that has a high stress job. I'm usually very nice to people, and connecting with clients was/is my priority, but when I come home I realize how much it emotionally drains me with no social benefit for myself, and half the people I talk to do not deserve it. So this was invaluable, because people HAVE said that I'm too nice to people. And now I understand where they're coming from. So now I have some homework to do. Thank you.
Wow, this really helped me understand my father-in-law more. He's one of those low-key, not obvious narcissists. He comes off as whiny one minute, and extremely rude and cruel in a passive-aggressive manner the next. My husband and I took care of him after he had to have heart surgery, and he was a nightmare. He demanded I make him poached eggs whenever he wanted (which I did without a complaint, because I do care about him), and I even made him homemade soup. Well, he just constantly complained about it all. Then went behind our backs, and lied to other family members that we were "neglectful" and borderline abusive! I fed him like he was my own child, despite literally already having 2 kids (ages 2 and newborn) to take care of. It was horrible. Long story short, he's no longer in our lives. He was too dangerous, emotionally and sometimes physically. He would sometimes have blow ups where he'd throw things. He's not dealing with dementia either, which is really the only time IMO throwing things might be understandable, as dementia is terrifying. No. He's just volatile. So, yeah, the best thing to do is to get away from the person, but if you work with one, man, that's really hard to deal with. Thankfully, we could expel this person from our life.
Hoooleee shit That sounds like hell, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. Glad things are better tho! Makes me happy to here that you got out of that situation.
This may be an uncharitable take, but I feel like the type of people who "care too much," or have, "too much empathy," and wind up getting taken advantage of are also caught in an ego trap of sorts. They've built their identity around being a caring and understanding person, that's why they can't say no or protect themselves, because it chips away at their core identity. You can feel a lot of that in this post, there are a lot of explicit and implicit value judgements being made that empathy equals moral good and person against me who doesn't feel it equals moral bad. This is why Buddhists draw a very important distinction between empathy (which is bad) and compassion (which is good). Empathy is taking someone else's emotions and problems onto yourself and you wind up suffering, too. This is what leads to caregiver burnout, for instance. Compassion is simply understanding them fully as a human that has suffering and mental conditioning causing them to act a certain way, and wishing them well, but not allowing yourself to be emotionally impacted by their suffering or bad actions towards you, etc. Loving kindness meditation can do wonders.
I need to learn how to empathize less, because I’m so tired and burnt out from a few people just using me as their therapists. Best of wishes to everyone else. 💖
I agree, this was exactly how i was, its not that people need to get meaner, it's not that people need to push people away, it's that people need to let go of their obsession to constantly be the one thats morally right, always taking care of others, the empathetic one, the one that's willing to carry the burden. They need to seek their identity elsewhere It was hard for me to accept this, i felt shameful for being this 'selfish' but I'm slowly drifting away from it, there's ways to help others without sacrificing so much of yourself. After realising this, my friendships started being more balanced, a lot healthier
Dr. k has a really good point 20 minutes onward… Narcissism is a defense mechanism & a function of the ego to protect ourselves & our vulnerabilities. Everyone has some narcissistic tendencies… I’ve found that victims of narcissistic abuse unfortunately sometimes wind up acting pretty narcissistic if they hold on to that bitterness. Myself included.
Same, sometimes it feels like the only way to defend against Narcissism is to be the narcissist, to be the hammer instead of the nail. Then you feel bad and end up getting taken advantage again. It’s a vicious cycle. I think the best way to get out is to first observe the people you would consider to be non-narcissistic but also non-codependent. You’ll notice that they are fairly “boring” people who mind their own business. They are off your radar. I think narcissists and co-dependents are always drawn to each other because they actually have the same energy, co-dependents are drawn to the narcissist’s percieved strength and status because they themselves feel weak and low status, the narcissist is drawn to co-dependents because they are “nice” and the narcissist is intensely fearful of criticism and abuse, and desperately crave validation. They are both simply suffering from low-self esteem. You’ll often notice that narcissist have people in their lives that treat them the way they treat their co-dependents and that “nice” people will often turn around and be mean to those who become vulnerable with them. The way out is to not play the game at all and actually raise your self-esteem in healthy ways, like taking care of yourself and your loved ones instead of chasing validation from others. Narcissists try to get you to put your self-esteem in their hands so that their approval and dissapproval mean everything to you, and this in turn makes them feel validated. When your self esteem comes from a strong internal place, they will sense that they cannot move you and they will become starved and move on. But it has to be genuine, you can’t fake it.
@@bigheadrhino i love what you said. On a similar note, I think what’s helped me… (besides anti-depressants lol)… was learning to not take shit so personally. People’s treatment of me has more to do with whats going on with them than it has to do with my actual value. I definitely had a tendency to externalize my self-worth. I think both empaths and narcissists do that in different ways. I don’t do that as much nowadays. Thank Goodness. Cuz it caused a lotta problems for me😂
Absolutely. I like to think of myself as accepting of other ideas but sometimes I become so narcissistic and full of myself, and I know that I become hard to deal with in those moments.
I have similar experiences. My father is pretty narcissistic and sometimes I think my mother also. You can't really argue with them...and watching this video I realized that one of my "best friends" is also this is why he always thought that my polite suggestions are "attacks". The scary thing is that now as I am less naive than I has been I become less empathetic than I originally was
It seems that when people identify themselves as an "empath" as if its a super power, it usually means that person was traumatized and they cant turn off their empathy because turning off empathy as a child meant their parent wouldn't take care of them and they might die. Empathy is normal, the inability to control it leads to a whole lot of misery. Speaking from experience. It is possible to choose when and when not to connect your energy to another human being, you just have to be present enough to know what you are doing.
it kinda is a superpower, considering that most people aren't (and i am not talking about people who use 'empathy' in politics, i mean actual empathic people)
It's funny, because when I tap into my repressed assholeness, I stay authentic and end up being wholesome while being virtually invicible with invasive people.
I think the key is developing your cognitive empathy. High levels of empathy can be one's greatest trait if they can put themselves in someone else's shoes and know how that person feels without actually sharing that person's emotions or burdens of life. (Think of how therapists can connect with their patients without feeling burnt out after a few ones with severe trauma). Idk if he touched on that in the video cuz I didn't actually watch it lol but empathy is more so the ability to understand others while still being your own person rather than understand others while sharing their thoughts and emotions. But that would definitely be way harder for someone to achieve if they've got their own complicated past as you've said yourself, or if they're naturally the type to be overwhelmed by emotions.
I find what Dr K says about handling a narcissist through allies to be pretty interesting. It's something I've noticed as well, but for different reasons. A while back, Dr K had a video where he mentioned how one of the things people could do as a community is to call out toxic actions in games as they happen, especially regarding misogyny. Not to white knight or anything, but just to point out how a specific action by the attacker wasn't cool. How in-the-moment, it might not affect the attacker much, but if the attacker went through multiple different instances where random people kept calling out their attacks as not cool, it might cause the attacker to realize that maybe their actions really weren't okay. So I started trying to actually do that / experiment with it across various communities. I had multiple cases where I'd see a person start attacking another just for a disagreement, and the attacker going too far (like resorting to personal attacks, trying to bait the victim to give personal information as fodder to attack them more, etc). In each of the cases when I called the attacker's actions out, they would completely switch their focus / target to me, and start attacking me as well. I'd roll with it, ignore baits, and continue to publicly but respectfully ask them why they did certain actions (re-framing the actions to clearly show why they were not okay). If the attacker somehow gains awareness in the moment, great, but more often than not, it provokes the attacker further, basically causing them to explode. But them exploding makes it really clear to the bystanders and higher ups, and it usually results in the attacker getting removed / banned shortly after. So I think the whole calling for allies thing can be done in-the-moment even with bystander strangers, where you are technically talking to the attacker, but what you are saying is actually meant for bystanders to hear, which gives them something to work with so that they can jump in to help against the attacker as well. At least, those have been my experiences so far. I primarily tried this / experimented with this in gaming communities, so usually the attacker was publicly attacking a victim in a public, online chat (like in-game, or in a public discord community). Surprisingly, in every case I tried these methods, random bystanders eventually actually jumped in to help as well, especially after the attacker would explode.
We’re stronger together even if most people aren’t tough. Numbers/redirected attention scare off/kill the mood for attackers. Often times bystanders freeze/don’t do anything because they’re worried for their safety/just unsure what to do. If one person stands up to the attacker and hints to the remaining bystanders that they have options/focus the tension on the attacker (who’s imploding), others start to step up. The attacker who gathers attention from a crowd has the potential weakness of losing control of the spotlight to defenders.
As someone who has allowed jerks to take advantage of me please do not let them influence your emotions. It’s ok to be sympathetic and care but when people are self centered or apathetic you really shouldn’t waste your time worrying about how they feel. You need to ofc be nice but do what’s best for you. Don’t do things for others just because you are sympathetic to their struggles or they offer friendship. That’s a good path into being manipulated and used. Good Friendships and good relationships are not exchanging services or doing all kinds of things for them.
You don't even have to be nice... JUST DECENT. I don't have to be nice to my neighbors or colleagues. I only have to use civilized language whenever I DO interact with them... and have the discretion to determine when it's best to just leave the sons of b****es alone. AND there are perfectly polite ways to tell someone you dislike them and to f*** right off without having to be disgusting or derogatory about it... "You and I are like oil and water. We do not mix. I only tolerate you because we both have to work here, and our personality conflicts aren't worth either of us losing their job." "Frankly, no. I do not care what happens to you or what you do about it. JUST do it away from me." "I know you have reports to hand deliver to me. You see that basket on my desk marked 'IN'? THAT is what it's for. Don't say anything... JUST put the reports in there and GO AWAY." "Yes, I've been avoiding you for YOUR OWN GOOD HEALTH AND SAFETY... I'd appreciate it, if you'd start avoiding me, too. I don't need the jail time, but you're making it look more like a vacation." ;o)
@@evee3164 Always welcome. I occasionally got accused of being a "kiss ass" in the Navy, because I so rarely swore in front of others, let alone at them... I grrew to be so legendary about the non-swearing and non-shouting habit (I practiced hard on the craft of "dead pan understatement) that when something fell and DID "flack me", the resulting obscenity at the top of my voice nearly caused a riot... BUT the reputation about "kiss ass" didn't stick around very long... It's a bit of an art. AND just for the record, it takes a little rehearsal to be able to stand and watch something remarkably inconvenient happen, and the mess result, and simply remark, "Welp... I could'a done without that." In any case... I hope it helps. Sometimes it takes a few lines of "well crafted f***-offery" to inspire those creative juices. A little practice and some "top notch" lines of your own can be made ready for most occasions to rehearse and prep' so you have the verbal "ammo" for a confrontation to make someone just leave you be... or even go away. ;o)
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 thanks for the advice. I really do need to remind myself that not everyone deserves my time or my energy. It’s okay not to like people and get along with them as long as I’m polite. I think a lot of people are taught to kinda let people walk all over them. In result you have this huge number of people who are miserable because they care way too much about how others feel about them. When they should care for themselves and be kind to themselves first.
@@em_rip Always welcome... glad to help out with that clarification. It's worth pointing out in my first "reply" if you look at that last "phrase" for telling someone off... It's a veiled threat, meaning I'm not outright saying "I'm going to hurt you" or anything, but the indication "I don't need the jail time" suggests that I might do something drastic, stupid, mean, and illegal as a direct result of further "forced" interaction... My point is that there's enough language that you have the ability to say some pretty vicious things without using obnoxiously blunt language or being "rude" about it. ANYWAYS... YOU are right. A lot of people have been led to believe that they should "play nice" and it causes too much worry about what other people think. Not everyone is going to like you or me particularly... I can tolerate it. I'm actually good with it. I hope this helps you and others with just a bit of inspiration to compose (and even rehearse) a few good lines for your own circumstances, so you can stand up for yourself and not get "called out" for supposedly inappropriate language. We really can express just about anything without being crude or obscene. ;o)
I asked my boss not to schedule me with the two toxic coworkers, and he agreed not to. After the lockdown those two coworkers weren't re-hired. He knew that I got along with basically everyone else and that other people also had problems with those two. Since I am a really good worker according to him he decided to take my side. Don't stay quiet about these things! If your boss doesn't care then you need a new boss.
I will acknowledge that I used to be a much kinder person prior to going into the engineering field. But this work culture hardens you. It makes your heart turn to stone every time it's stabbed and torn up. I value being kind, and I really, REALLY don't want to lose that aspect of myself. But self reflection tells me that i'm slipping. And that scares me to no end. I'm adapting to survive, but the adaptation is making me into what I hate most. Someone who is willing and ready to step on toes to get ahead. (Because like it says above: being kind will only allow you to be exploited.) For what it's worth, when I do find someone who I believe to be a kind person, I will do my best to elevate them, even if they take opportunities I may have been hoping for. For a kind person, I'm willing to give them that reward for somehow existing in such a cold hard field. I genuinely wish them well, almost like a proud parent. Note: I'm fresh out of college, and I'm turning into a veteran in mindset already. I'm no longer a kind person, but I will never stop trying to be kind. Its a moving target that I see value in always trying to hit.
Be careful of the kind people you find backstabbing you and not caring about you in return after a while. Altruism is rarely rewarded in our world and that reality check coming from places you don’t expect can knock you off track real hard,
@@kknumber20 Thats why we have only very very few actually close friends which we can rely on. Always been that way, harsh reality of adulthood and getting worse with this me me me and my happiness culture.
But what makes you feel you’re not a kind person? Just because you gained thick skin from your career or work doesn’t mean you’re not. How you are at work versus who you are outside of it still allows you to be kind. There’s many ways we can be kind to each other-volunteer work, leaving kind or supportive comments on someone’s social media, shoveling a neighbor’s driveway, donating clothes, asking someone if they need help, giving food to your local food bank, letting someone merge in front of you in a packed highway, paying for someone’s meal, etc. Now I get all this can be taken advantage of, but it doesn’t have to be all the time. Maybe make it a monthly goal to practice one act of kindness because I do believe we all have it at our core. Humans had to practice this to survive with one another and rely on each other hundreds of years ago. It’s how we collectively co exist and can help make a difference. Coworkers and jobs aren’t our lives you know? They pay the bills and utilize our skills, but in my opinion that’s about it. I too feel I’m jaded at times, but I’ve caught myself doing things that I feel are kind and I’m like okay I guess I’m not that bad… don’t be so hard on yourself. It’s a weird transition from college to workplace and make sure you’re giving yourself time out of work to enjoy yourself and hobbies.
I teared up a bit with your post. I use to be very shy and kind. I've gladly help out if someone asked me because it didnt effect me at all to do so but as I got older and got into the real world I began to see that some off those people that ask or rather dont ask just give it as n order most often they do it because they are lazy or they dont want to do it themselves so they ask you instead to do it for them. I began to see how I was being taken advantage of because I never said no. I see it alot for fresh young adults how kind and willing they are to grow and learn but slowly it's like we become corrupted by societies junk of selfishness
The codependent empath is someone who had to be hyper vigilant in their childhood, and as an adult fawns and has difficulty placing boundaries that would actually support them
Part of the confusion is the idea that to be selfless is an absolute virtue. Not always. Sometimes to be selfless simply means to neglect yourself, or even just to be cowardly. One has to be willing (and brave!) to bare their teeth sometimes; to take risks; to have confrontations. Some things in life have to be fought for.
Wow this really speaks to me on so many levels. OP's description of a Narcissist sounds like they're describing my ex-wife, who ended up gaslighting me during our entire relationship, but unfortunately didn't realize until we separated and I was no longer under her control. I reframed it in my mind as a learning opportunity which lead to me finding my current partner and having an amazing fulfilling relationship now because of it. It also made me realize I needed to find a career which made me happy and fulfilled, so I just finished my Professional Counselling Diploma and got a job as a Withdrawal Management Worker where my empathy has a major positive effect on those who really need it.
Same here. My whole life I've been trying to please and benefit others, expecting that this is the way to go and everyone does that out of respect for one another. With time I realised that not only did people not do the same for others or me but they activly leeched and took what they could get without reflecting their behavior. They literally behaved like selfish animals. The days it dawned on me how many people out there were and what behaviour they showed were amongst the most dissapointing ones in my life.
What works for me is to be logical and reasonable instead of emotional. I acknowledge the empathetic emotions that I have, but I make sure they're not done in a foolish way. Even family members can take advantage of others being overly empathetic. I think just being smart has worked for me.
i dont think you can be logical without being emotional. its so important to be in touch with your emotions in order to understand why you believe a certain thing which actually leads to logic in the long run
@@SlurpySlime Depends on how thoroughly thought out your value system is. If you already have a strong concept of the ethics you wish to embody it's entirely possible to emotionally dissociate in the pursuit of trying to see an objective truth because sometimes holding to an ethic hurts emotionally to do.
I was gunna say this, I've found adhering to logic, and avoiding a narcissist attempts to engage in an emotional fight they can tear you down in, is kryptonite to them.
I had those issues early on and the best way to win at something rigged against you is to just not play. Those people who try to manipulate or take advantage of you being in their life will probably not change just from you being their friend. So just don't, walk away. Fewer emotionally healthy friends is much better than many toxic friends.
I want to understand exactly to how people come to the conclusion you could potentially "fix" someone, i don't get it. If someone is a annoying fuck JUST cut them from your sight
@@blahblah94897 A lot of people become friends with someone before knowing who they truly are. Or some people push the boundaries of friendship more and more over time. Or they are a classmate, coworker, or family member. And then you don't have the option to cut them out of your site. Human interaction can be complicated.
@@amp7980 >Become friends with someone before knowing who they truly are That's a problem created by themselves as only when you know someone at least by a 80% they can be called friends, and no that 20% wont be their "dark side" you can see the signs and if you cannot, talk to other people who knows the person and if they don't have friends that's already a orange flag. >Forced into the person Do it anyways, there is ALWAYS gonna be a point where its not a outside circumstance but its them forcing themselves into you and at that point you MUST force them to fuck off or die trying, simple as.
@@blahblah94897 lol, the only way to know who someone truly is is to bring them into your life and hang out with them. Most people consider that a friend, and even if they dont, that person still has an impact on your life. So, whether you consider that a friend or not, sometimes it is too late to escape that person without leaving a big mess. I'm not saying that you shouldn't look out for signs, but saying it's the fault of the person who interacted with the toxic person is ridiculous. I was friends with someone for 2 YEARS before I found out he was a creep. I cut him off immediately but saying it's my fault that he hid that part of himself so well is absurd. A lot of people hide their negative traits until they feel more comfortable. Not just narcissists. Its probably part of why divorce is so common- and why I believe you should date for like 3-5 years at least before marrying. Even then, some people completely flip a switch after marriage no matter how long you wait.
@@pocketsoup8338 Okay, maybe for me its really simple and it comes to my mind naturally what to say, look for and ask to know whatever a person is bad or good and i realize not everyone has had the same experience. What I will say is I cannot refute your claim of not being at fault as i would basically be asking what happened those entire 2years. To me, the distance between "Person I know" and "Friend" is very large, people tend to be too friendly for what I preserve but I wasn't trying to say its the victim's fault that is never the case, I wanted to write that being a little more cautious could result in more successful relationships. (And most couples break up because of a lack of communication)
I'm a highly empathetic person, and though I have never been in a serious situation where I've been taken advantage of (that I can recall at the moment) I remember when I was about 9 or 10 and a person asked to lend some money from me. I only had less that a dollar (I was a grade school kid after all) but I gave the money anyway, because I've always had a bit of trouble saying no to people. The person promised to give me back my money someday, so I waited. I even asked for it a few times but they said they'll get to it sometime, which made me feel like a bad person for asking for the money back. (it was likely not anything they said, but my own weird brain that thinks that everyone else's time, money, etc is worth more than anything I have to offer) Anyway, I'm still waiting for the money but the person has likely long forgotten all about it
@@Bambi-nv2ze haven't seen or heard from/about this person in years, I don't even know if they still live in the same area they used to. Also, it was less than a dollar, so there's no point
@@ManTehLemons most people have actually paid me back the money that I've given them but now I select the people I lend money to extremely carefully, not just give it away to random people a few years older than me who I see only around school every now and then. Also, I don't give money if I can't afford it, I'm still salty that I couldn't buy that Kinder penguin back then.
I think you got a really good deal, overall. You managed to buy extremely useful personal experience about lending for less than a dollar. And the other person didn't even get one measly dollar for it!
This is literally the video I needed today. I've been dealing with similar issues with someone, who thankfully I am able to walk away from, but who always seems to be able to re-enter my life when my shields are down so to speak. It's resolved now, but I've still been left with serious doubts whether the fact that I give a damn about other people is a vulnerability or not.
So I've thought about it and I'm extremely empathetic and relate to pretty much everything the rant poster said. Although I also get extremely emotional when someone passive aggressively makes fun of me or takes shots at me. I was wondering if I am secretly a narcissist because I get mad or frustrated by (seemingly rightful to be mad at) things that others do towards me even though I can easily recognize the passive aggressiveness they try to hide...
Listen, you are not a narc. There are degrees to narcissism, and we all engage in narcissistic behaviour. A little bit of narcissism is actually a good thing. As long as its in balance, thats what you need to make sure your needs are taken care of. The fact you’re even questioning if you’re a narc, thats not something narcissists do. Do you ruthlessly take people down because of how insecure you are? Manipulate your friends and family to always get what you want? Lie through your teeth for your own benefit? Yes narcissists at their core are deeply insecure. But they ultimately dont actually care about what other people think or feel in terms of how their actions negatively effect them. Its their way or the highway.
Doctor Ramani (a psychologist also on youtube) made a great video on High emotional sensibility/empathy vs high reactivity (typically seen in narcissistic folks). This could be a good starting point to explore, she also has several great videos for both narcissists and people in their lives of any type of relationships.
I figured out all the narcisstic traits I had were overcompensation from hyper-arousal. As I learned to feel and let the negative emotions flow through my being instead of repressing and avoiding them, the need to crush others faded away.
Look into reactive abuse, because NPD individuals will poke, prod, and harass you until you end up saying something out of character. While you then end up feeling immediate remorse, they got the supply they needed and get a high off of how they were just able to control your emotions. Reactive abuse always has us feeling sick and questioning if WE are the one with NPD. Maybe? You may be a self-aware narc like "Mental Healness" channel or you may not be and just suffering the confusion of the real NPD individual's manipulation that has you doubt yourself. I also suggest reading "Safe People" by Dr. Henry Cloud. I just listened to it on Audible after experiencing reactive abuse, and it has helped me understand how to better discern a safe and unsafe person.
People who are high in agreeableness are often also very high in resent because not only are they very willing to put up with other people's poor behaviour but they are also not willing to say anything that might create further conflict. Like a punching bag that wants to tell people to back off but feels they're not allowed to express that, and so all their unhappy feelings just stew inside.
Having observed some narcissistic individuals I believe they create their own hell from nothing. Any "victory," if such can be said to exist, is phyrric for them.
Wonderful insight as always Dr. K. I found this video to be centered on narcissists and as someone who grew up with a narcissistic mother, your dialogue about how narcissists will not take constructive criticism because they are internally dealing with things is SO true and so insightful! This is truly one of those “it’s not you, it’s them” situations which makes it so tough for the person going through all of this! I also could not agree more that there are great bosses out there. I am so fortunate to work with a wonderful boss and I think that trust between one and their boss is pivotal for your success at your job.
Ive been living this situation for the past few years. This narcasssist could murder half my office and theyd still be protected sometimes theres more layers to it. It was refreshing to hear someone address the situation with a "Fight back" mentality when usually youll hear people say something like "Be the bigger person and ignore them"
When I'm around narcissists or disagreeable people, I tap into the darkest repressed parts of my personality, and it allows me to autopilot their attacks, evade and respond in a proportional manner. I dive into the fear/anger/sadness of their blows, which make these emotions fade away and allow me to keep my footing. The depth and stability it gives me just end up scaring them away.
@@anthony.3085 If that happens I think you have a very reasonable case to get out of that dynamic, stat. Whatever reasons you think you have for not GTFOing, they're probably not worth it and there's alternatives. But in most cases, physical altercations aren't the end all be all of arguments, literally one of the main purposes of laws is so people can't just use violence willy-nilly, no matter their size, so what OPs saying is very viable. If they do get violent and you can prove it, I don't think they are in a very favorable position at all even if you have to take a beating for it.
@@cookiesmcsalsa1281 I'd say looking for a local shelter. These are institutions specifically designed to take in people in situations like these. That's because this situation isn't exactly rare, it's a common technique to keep you friendless so you have no one to turn to.
@@cookiesmcsalsa1281 Not sure, I think YT is censoring my comment for using the word, but try searching for something like ""aßu$e shelter" and you should come up with a tool that should help you find one hopefully near you. But do it discreetly. The worst thing that can happen is them snooping on your devices and find out while you're still planning.
Anger is an emotion, being emotional doesn't automatically equate to a loss. It's what you do with those emotions that determines the outcome. Anger can help you, provided you don't lose yourself in it.
The problem arises when you are talking about someone who knows you very well and can find weaknesses about you and use them against you in arguments, even if it has nothing to do with it
@S E B Your mind is the last bastion against the world. No matter where you find yourself in life or what you are faced with or forced to endure, the only thing in this world that can ever truly be yours and yours alone is your mind. Don't surrender that to other people. You might not be able to stop your feelings, and you shouldn't even if you could, but you can control the thoughts and actions that you assign to those feelings.
I love the restrained responses when in the meeting in them and not giving in to emotional responses to their baiting or being threatened/pressured into responding to accusing outbursts and keeping redirecting anything personal aimed at you to talking about objective facts and the collective good/general principles that nobody can really argue with and maintaining the air of being an empathic grown up mediating while they're tantruming like a child. I think raising one's eyebrows high in visible surprise or giving a slight side-eye might be more effective than rolling your eyes because it's harder to pinpoint as disrespectful and more explicitly perceived as "neutral" but it gets the message across to everyone including them. (Even though eye-rolling is also just subconscious for me and I think only very sensitive people - like narcissists - actually take it personally). Raised eyebrows is a very "grown-up" and dignified gesture of disapproval that makes it clear *they* just acted out more than appropriate in this setting of professional adults, but you're too restrained and professional to stoop to the level of acting out or responding emotionally. Side-eyes implying skepticism/suspicion without saying it overtly - because you're too "nice" and "professional" and "wouldn't want to disrupt the meeting/work environment". Raised eyebrows or side-eyes also primes others to think twice about the interaction they're witnessing (that and the fact that you're not responding equally venomously so it's clear only one person is being a problem here while the other is listening to them, staying on task with the company's prerogative and appears to be trying to be de-escalating). I'm noticing a real power here in the *lack* of response and being especially restrained, keeping everything impersonal and professional, while also being overtly polite and respectful. It appears the method is actually to play to your empathy and self control as a strength and a discipline in not losing your cool. Keeping cool, on task and ultra restrained and NOT responding seems to be the real challenge can be really hard to do in practise if you're stressed out by the prospect of being around someone who may affect your family dynamic and livelihood, so it's good to practise it on low-stakes scenarios - say with people on the internet in a discord channel that you're not that attached to for example. One way to visualise it (for me) is seeing it like a "courtroom" of public opinion (or I guess a political situation) where you know you can be fact-checked or nitpicked so you are very careful to say ONLY what is relevant and avoid any emotional baiting, respond to direct quotes literally and don't misrepresent any meanings or leave room for interpretation or claims of misrepresentation. Ways to take the pressure off may be to practise it first in online group chats where you are less personally invested or affected by the person and also don't have to respond instantly. I want to share my experience of this, as I actually did this today with a narcissist in our apartment block's group chat when the narcissist was tantruming about how they wouldn't report security violations "since people don't listen and I'm sick of policing people" (the real reason was because people voted against them installing their own cameras to personally monitor the complex) and that they should just let people's flats get broken into to "teach" people to be more vigilant. I pointed out that this was inappropriate and relayed a story from the other day where someone had attempted to break into the house of a family on the bottom floor right by the gate that was left open by someone else and went unreported, and pointed out that while [the narcissist] may feel safe, some apartments on the ground were more vulnerable than others. I also pointed out that this is a security group and that they are not obligated to be in it but this is its purpose. (Maybe I was pushing my luck there). The narcissist tantrumed and made it personal, accusing me of "always picking on them" (I'd criticised them once before) and I kept redirecting and trying to make it personal. I kept the focus on security and the wellbeing of the group and the importance of us being vigilant and remembering when we go outside and check the gate is locked properly that some of us are far more vulnerable than others. To their direct accusation of me trying to "make them look bad" I simply said "when someone criticises something you do they aren't always trying to make you look bad. I assume we're all just trying our best to improve here." One person stepped in to try equivocate our behaviour, saying something like "we can't just have you two having a go at each other" and I simply replied "Is that what you saw happening here? 🤔" left it at that without driving any further points or seeming like I "needed" to win an argument, and then said "but I'm going to leave it at that as I don't think dragging this out is beneficial for the group, apologies for the spam in the group everyone, I just feel this issue is very important, we need to keep vigilant" and just politely re-requested that we keep the focus on security and remember to think of the more vulnerable apartments when we're closing the gate. I think being the first one to leave the conversation and showing unwillingness to drag out any unpleasantness for everyone else to read probably also was interpreted in a positive way by the group. This was my first time feeling confident enough to engage "confrontationally" with this kind of person. Self-therapy (all I can afford lol) and following Dr K and DoctorRamani and some others has been really helpful in processing my CPTSD and deconstructing my past abuse and becoming aware of my past vulnerability towards narcissists, terror of manipulation (from being raised by two narcissistic parents and indoctrinated in a cult as well) in order to feel confident in managing them and asserting boundaries. But yeah, emotional restraint, verbal restraint and sticking to objective, unquestionable narrowly defined facts and the collective benefit seems to be the way. And not HAVING to win - a healthy level of detachment about the outcome to keep calm and disciplined in your restraint I guess. Thank you Dr K, you were the one who taught me this (this is my second time watching this video)!
Wow. Thank you! You are the first person who has had actual steps on how to deal with this type of behavior, in a healthy and doable way. Thanks so much for your great content! Really helps
I really struggle with feeling like all of the suggestions given here are manipulative in and of themselves. I feel like talking behind anyone's back isn't ok, talking badly about someone who isn't there isn't ok, rolling your eyes and getting someone riled up isn't ok, setting a trap basically for someone isn't ok... I feel like I always have to set others up to win. I recognize this is unhealthy for me, especially that last one, and I've heard advice like this for years. But actually getting it to feel ok, to feel right and ok in my soul... or probably my ego? lol, is the hard part. I just haven't been able to take any action like this even knowing it's in order to protect myself, because it feels manipulative and therefore wrong.
Agreed. I was thinking "but isn't that abusive?" especially when it comes to rolling your eyes for the purpose of provoking a reaction and then acting like nothing could have possibly provoked the reaction. It seems like fighting the narcissist with their own tools is the answer, but you know what they say about wrestling with a pig.
To me, it's actually morally worse to be complacent and let the psychopath/narcissists scot free. I'm willing to dirty my hands to protect those around me and myself from their bad behaviour.
One of my "best friends" was a narcissist / untreated borderline. I once called her out on a promise she failed to follow up on, and she snapped, shouted in my face and started accusing me of God knows what, in public.... I "hate people", I had been "rude to her daughter" (even though she could never specify when and how), etc. Lots of unfunded claims like that. We "reconciled" there and then, but I went home from that gathering, blocked her on all social media, blocked her phone number, etc. My life is more peaceful now. Kind of sad losing a friend, but I just have to remind myself that someone who gaslights me and repeatedly breaks their promises only to flip when finally called out on it, is not a friend. Oh, and she "hates academia" because, well, people with an education earn more than she does, and there's something shady with everyone who's not in her little clique, she struggles a lot with her emotions but of course everything that upsets her is someone else's fault... it's pathetic. I'm just glad to be out of it.
my little brother (we're 2 years appart) is the most narcissistic person I know and when we were little he had an enourmous inferiority complex towards me. I hated playing with him because we always ended up in an argument at the end and I was always the losing one. Before I was 6 I could rely on my parents to stop him when he threw tantrums, but then my parents told me :"your playing with your little brother so we consider that we don't have to intervene anymore". The situation became really hard to deal with and I hated my parents for the fact that they did not realize that my brother needed to see a therapist. I'll try to explain how horrible it was to play with him, so first of all he cried really easily, the smallest amount of pain would make him cry and it was the only thing that could make my parents react to our "games" and obviously I would get punished hard for making him cry :"your the strongest here, your the responsible one, so don't make him cry" so I couldn't just beat him up when I was angry. I've had some traumatic experiences when I was 3 or 4 that now makes me almost pass out when a part of my body is locked in place and I can't move it. and obviously my brother had to be naturally really heavy to make it so hard for me... so basically in a fight I can't punch and he just had to get on top of me to win... oh and of course don't ask him to stop ! he somehow became stronger and stronger every time I asked him to... when we had normal conversation he would always try to win arguments that doesn't even exist with the worst logic you've ever seen and then we would fight and I would lose Also the thing is, up until I was 10 I thought my brother was normal because every person I talked to told me things like :"my little brother is the most annoying in the world" And the link with this video is that I naturally developped the skills dr K talks about and I basically won by hinting at my parents that my brother needed to see a therapist (but to be honest the reason why I didn't asked my parents directly is because I was affraid they would think that he had no problems and I was just bad at dealing with him and that if he were to see a therapist without being ok with it it would be pointless so I expected my parents to talk to him) and the situation became much better after that. The problem I have now is that I also gained other "skills" that I didn't want to learn at all like the inability to express anger or to enjoy things fully and let other people see my weaknesses... I'm working on it today but it takes time
@@mgbm8335 remember most of it happened during my (and his) really really early life, so the answer is really easy as to why he was like that : I was the one who was stealling his mother it's the first reason (or maybe the prime reason) and I have proof about that because he only left my mother's bed when he was around 8 and always tried to steal the affection I was getting from her The second reason was probably because I was the one who could play with our big brother (he is 10 years older than me) and the reason why was because I was a really anxious and obedient child, I was exactly how he wanted me to be because I listened to all of his complaints. so when I was watching him play video games for example, I was like a statue, don't talk don't move don't make sound (it took me years to have the courage to ask him if I could go take a chair to sit while watching him play) the last reason was because I was too obedient (it's kind of linked with the second reason actually) I listened to everything I was told and did my best to please everyone and so throughout my early life I constantly heard praise from adults like :"he is the perfect child for a parent" "he is sooooo mature so smart" (btw I hate the fact that I received those because it was everything but true) and on the opposite my brother never got any kind of praise because he was just so disruptive and so overly excited. He must have felt like it was unfair but I never talked with him about it so I don't know if it's exactly those reason or not, I might have forgotten some things or maybe I just haven't yet realized some other possible reasons....
@@manabuhorikita969 yeah I had Obedience issues too, although y'all were very very young...when we're young we're most stupid. There is some signs though of feelings of inadequacy going on there already. Hopefully that stuff changed, maybe not. In general it sounds like you don't really have a good bond with him, emotional bond.
@@mgbm8335 I know how it looks from an outsider's perspective and I am myself trying to take a look at it from a distance but basically my view on the issue was really different when I was little. yes there were a lot of times where I absolutely did not want to play with him at all because I felt the need to be left alone and be by myself but there were also a lot of times where I liked to play with him, and sometimes I was the one coming to him simply because of this logic : I like him until I don't and I love to play with him until I don't anymore. When I was little it almost felt natural for me, that things would end up bad for me in the end... I was actually really bad at complaining about things that bothered me, like for example my first grade teacher despised me for some obscure reason and because of that she made fun of me and insulted me almost all the time (I think she only was doing that to me) and I never saw nor felt the problem until my mother talked to me about it several years after... So I always forgave my brother for anything and we yes are not as close as before but things are still going well today (I'm 18 btw so I think it's natural that we are taking different path today). Oh ! and I almost forgot but he was my only real company because I could only play or watch my big brother playing video games during the weekends for around 1 hour each day... (my parents were (and are still) usually talking by themselves complaining about their day of work and never really interract with us appart from the things like school work or telling us when we have to sleep or eat) So I think the only thing sad between my brother and me is that I have to do everything possible when talking to him to not activate his bad sides. And that's funny because when I talk to my brother and he is trying to make me angry I can calmly respond to all of his little traps but people listening him talking to me gets infuriated even though they are not in the conversation. Also I kind of got my revenge on my mother because as I started to take distance from my brother (when I was around 16) he started going towards my mother a little more and she realized that she can't talk to him for more than 5 minutes without getting fed up. And you have to understand that he was 10 times easier to talk to because he became way calmer with the therapy and with the age. And so I can't even discribe the feeling I got when she asked me :"how do you deal with your brother ?"
@@manabuhorikita969 hehe, relatable. Except I have a older brother btw. I really don't like to visit my Dad's house (been with him for 17 years... now it's a back and forth thing...), after all the alcoholic days, anger issues in general, mom always angry too (Divorce was bound to happen tbh... they're Spanish btw). When I ACTUALLY go to my Dad's house (even though we're not supposed to because my Mom has a Boyfriend and she brings my half sister, Boyfriends Daughter, to my dad's house), It's like going back to a burned house. Dad still getting mad at my Brother because of my brothers Ego/Cockiness, kinda talks about our Dad like he's nothing sometimes, (I wouldn't do that sh!t imao). In short, the cycle of dysfunction seems to start again even after we moved away ... and I don't wanna keep going to my Dad's house anymore, it's awkward as f!CK too. I don't see a future for me tbh. I'm 19, I turn 20 this year...and I need to find work badly.
This is me. This is so me. With each person that wrongs you, it's so tempting to just give up on your humanity. But the more you cross path with them, the easier and the faster you'll spot them and you'll eventually be able to keep them at arms lenght before you're too hurt. But it does take practice... a lot of it.
"When you finally stop letting them walk all over you and set boundaries, they will see you as the villain." ... So? So you're not so selfless after all then, you still cared about your feelings more than your boundaries or being the villain. Let them think you're the villain, you're not the villain for setting boundaries but no one will actually hand you your rights, sometimes you just gotta take it. But when it's time to be selfless and compassionate then do so. That's how you're a better person. Being smart with who you're compassionate with. It's like some people think being empathetic means you gotta stop thinking or something. Also, there are conflict resolution techniques you could use strategically. You could learn those to make your life at work a little easier, to equip yourself better if you think this is an on-going issue throughout your life. That's what I would do.
@@cristianwithnoh2951 I haven't either xD Although it is true that she is usually in her boyfriend house, and comes back every once in a while. Anyways, good luck mate, the only think I can tell u is that :/
OPs comment is what I dealt with on a daily basis when I was active duty Navy. (I know it's life in general too, this is my experience since I hopped to a fast food job, community college then to the Navy.) I always wanted to keep the peace even though there was plenty of times I could of retaliated or raised hell, etc. I didn't want to create drama and in the end - I thought going on a ship was going to be a good stepping stone in my career. It ended up with me spiraling. And after one of my shipmates committed suicide I couldn't pretend that I could keep being part of that organization. Now, after a long fight with the Military system...I am no longer in the Navy. This was a great video I'm going to keep your points in mind!
I'm 2 minutes in, and scrolling through the comments sharing similar stories, and this doesn't sound like a problem with empathy at all. This sounds like a problem with being extremely high in agreeableness and not having yet learned to exercise your capacity for disagreeableness in a healthy way. Plenty of people are empathetic. Very few let themselves be walked all over, because then they're not showing empathy to themselves. They have no trouble communicating a boundary when they're not respected, and if the disrespect continues, they walk away, and find other people who will treat them better.
Thats true - i fall into this category. Im empathetic, but not very agreeable as i was raised by three overbearing older sisters - which taught me to keep my guard up, since they usually would take advantage of me being younger and overall a nice person. Its almost impossible to argue with them, so instead i just became difficult and disagreeable, and that carries over in the rest of my life. its not always good and i had to learn to be MORE agreeable at work especially since it almost got me fired a couple of times. "they're not showing empathy to themselves." - this is also a big part of it. The agreeableness usually stems from a need for validation and/or safety due to lack of confidence and self-esteem.
This is definitely an empathy problem as well. Dr K specifically mentions people who are very high in empathy and how they have problems with setting boundaries. This is not the same as being agreeable - there is a lot more that goes into the ability to set boundaries than just having the right amount of disagreeableness and a lot of these problems come with the emotional and rational complexity of the social act of setting boundaries. If you read the comments here a lot of people actually report feeling bad because their empathetic side is overvaluing the "pain" that their own boundaries might cause another person. Learning to be disagreeable can be a useful skill but there is more to the emotional side of this problem that isn't solved just by being disagreeable.
@@Teilnehmer Yeah, that's a good point. I think it's also worth mentioning that people with zero empathy can struggle to set boundaries, too, and let themselves be walked all over. They're fictional, but Wormtail in Harry Potter and Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings come to mind as good examples of not caring for others but still letting themselves be dominated and pushed around.
@@Balloonbot People aren't always agreeable because they're weak or insecure. It's a pillar of personality. About half the population is just agreeable by nature.
I'm a extreme empathetic person, to the point I wish I cared more about myself and my own success. Id rather help others and let others feel cool if I'm on the butt end of the joke because I disect it immediately and just don't care or have a high ego, I view it as if they wanna feel cool go ahead idc. But I need to set boundaries and this made me realize that
this video came at a good time, a longtime friend who has had a tolerably low level of narcissistic traits had an episode because he didn't like how I was choosing to spend my free time. Thanks as always Alok
I like the interviews, don't get me wrong. They have great value. I gotta say, I dig these lecture-type videos a little more. Huge shout out to the entire HG community. Big love, and thanks for all you do.
Im really happy that you pointed out that the post was very easily readable as narcissistic - it sounded exactly like a rant that a narcissist in my life would go on. Except for that ending part, as you also pointed out
I don’t know how much this has to do with ego but having to uproot your life because of a bad person certainly seems like getting the short end of the stick. You have to leave everything you’ve been working for and go through weeks if not months of double the grief to find a new job. No matter what, you’re in a situation that means you always have to do more work than people who are willing to be mean. Ego or no ego it seems like the fact that you have to give up what you’ve worked for just to get treated decently really is getting the short end of the stick
Haha I mean without watching the whole video (just the beginning) I think it’s a terrible idea to talk with people like this if you can help it, that’s literally my entire family. Had the best Christmas ever this year because I finally cut them off. I didn’t have to perform and buy Christmas presents that would never be good enough for them this year and instead did meaningful gifts only for those I care about. I joked that if I’d known things would have been this great I would have cut them off years ago haha 😆 I understand why I didn’t before; because I didn’t have that support network in place besides my family and I also needed to see how horrible they really are so I could really walk away without thinking “what if”.... but seriously you don’t have to deal with that kind of bullshit.
Right yes he touches on this, leaving narcissistic people. There is a way of detaching without physically leaving so they don’t live in your head rent free so to speak. Definitely build up your other relationships, seriously everything you give in a relationship with a narcissistic person is going to go nowhere or will be used against you so just recognize that and give less and less. (It could take a while for this to truly register) Get to a place where you just start to recognize that it’s truly unworkable. Every time you feel the urge to directly interact with that person, find out your reasons why you want to do so, and try and meet your need in another way. Literally 90% of the time you’re doing it for your own closure, so really just remind yourself their lack of flexibility and openness to working together is closure. Try to find your answers as to why it’s not working and that will be your closure. You’ll have to remind your brain if it wants to interact with that person that it’s not working and it won’t work the way the brain wants it to work. Then from there you can start to build up the other relationships and with time it’ll matter less and less. I’m totally game for devils advocates here though. 😝
I relate a lot to this post and feel like it's something that has stunted me. Things feel helpless and feel like anything I do is wrong, so I largely don't try as a result. The main difference would be that I'm only partially empathetic and partially lack it. On one hand I care how others are treated, on the other I don't care. Drama has probably desensitised me for the latter. Anyway, the notion of trying to bait a narcissist feels incredibly manipulative to me and I would rather help them see how destructive their behaviour is to others and according to Dr K, themselves too. It seems like the solution is rather to put your needs above the needs of others. If a narcissist is fired, they will still impact others around them wherever they go. So in this way, it seems being more selfish protects you more. I feel like if you get really skilled in baiting/manipulating people's emotions, then you can really benefit so long as you don't gloat about what you're doing and stop caring how others feel.
The only problem is, trying to get a narc to "see their destructive behaviour" is exactly the bait that will flow into the "conflict you can't win". It will ALWAYS be inefficient with a totally narc personality, unless that person is actually an empathetic one with the "narc shields" up. It's okay to try and help people, but some of them will never learn, and will probably need a licensed therapist anyway. So please, keep being you, but recognise when you can't go on any longer and then step away; life is too short to cultivate bitterness at the expense of others'.
I just got out of a one year relationship about a month ago. I've learned everything I could from it but it still hurts so much. I messed up a lot throughout the relationship, but no matter what I always tried to improve and become a better person. My partner on the other hand very rarely could accept that they made mistakes and always put the blame on me. I was always convinced I was a terrible person that couldn't change, because no matter how much improvement I made, it just wasn't good enough. It took me until after the breakup to realize how much I was being manipulated and gaslighted. I tried to make them realize just how much they were truly hurting me, but like the past, everything was always my fault. After everything, they're somehow convinced that I've done them wrong. That I was a terrible person to them, when all I did was give them my all and try the very best I could to adjust to whatever demands they made. I was suspecting more and more over the past year that I have ASD and I'm on the spectrum. The more and more I look into it, the more and more it seems a possibility. Looking back, the majority of the things I "did wrong" were just symptoms caused by my suspected ASD. Things that I tried so so so so hard to stop doing. It hurts so much to even attempt to comprehend how someone you loved more than anyone else and that you gave everything in you to could be as cruel as they were. Even though I realize now how shitty of a situation I was in, I still find me trying to blame myself for everything that happened. I just don't understand how someone could do everything my partner did and just think they didn't do anything wrong nor care about what they did at all. They also always talked to their friends about whatever I did do wrong or supposedly did wrong, while I kept everything to myself and thought about how I could improve myself and the situation. Some of their friends are also my friends. I really don't know how to prove to them that I'm not the monster I've been made out to be. It's really hard to do that when your name has been dragged through the mud for an entire year and the only things you spoke about to your friends were the mistakes you made and how you could improve yourself and prevent them from happening in the future. I never really talked about what my partner did. I don't know what to do. To just give up trying to explain my side of the story? Or to stand my ground and explain myself, but live through the pain longer because I have to retell everything I've been through?
You can watch Dr. Ramani. She has a TH-cam channel, and she did a video about your situation. My advice is cut everyone from your life, and go no contact
There was a perfect comment in chat: the writer is not enough assertive, not too empathic. I consider myself emphatic, i am told I am lile that and i never get into arguments, but i can stand up for myself because I know it is my right and sometimes it is the right thing to do. I never felt like narcissist necessarily win in life and I think a lot of the research in that regard should consider how power makes you, and not just the end result of character of the people in power.
Amen to that. I'm only 2 minutes in and the problem obviously isn't too much empathy. Caring about others doesn't mean being a pushover, because then you're not caring about yourself.
I've heard something very similar way too often. Most of the time this is just a mental barrier set in place by the abuser. Depending on the severity, absolutely get in touch with CPS.
@@marzipancutter8144 I’m 23 so I don’t need CPS lol but I get what your saying. As a man, I feel that this issue happens a lot to other men because your mother is your mother like most of us were given everything by our moms and only when we grow up do we realize how wrong or right they were to do the things they did and no one wants to hurt their mom telling them that they ended up causing you pain.
@@xXWyTeBreaDXx Ah, I get what you mean now. I've been thinking of worst case scenarios because that's what people around me have been dealing with in their past. Lucky I've been spared of these issues myself, but It's sad seeing that decent parents seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
Just now learning how to turn off my empathy. I used to think it was wrong to ever be unempathetic, but I’ve realized I’m a person I need to take care of as well and I can’t spend all of my emotional energy on that.
I worked with someone like this and I feel for this person writing the post. I worked with an older woman who would undermine me, ignore me, something was wrong it was my fault, put heavy flimsy items on huge stacks and even going up to management saying I never did work and when I put in to leave working with her she just flat out pretended like I never existed. I didn't get out of working around her but it made it so much better.
As a high empathy neuro divergent. I offer the boundaries i set for myself. Offer kindness to those deserving. Offer malice to those deserving. Approach everyone new on even ground.
Human consiousness is a bendable thing. With some work and exercise you can mold it into anything. I too was extremely empathetic, until I realized that it's overall a net loss, both mentally and financially. Sometimes even physically. As soon as I realized that, I started to reflect upon my actions and try to correct yourself. When you correct yourself afterwards, or make a mental note, the nex time, when a certain situation arises, you won't make the same mistake as frequently as before. With enough time the frequency drops dramatically. Nowadays I have no problem with saying no, in fact, I most of the time say no. Recently i had a situation, where the hr was busy collecting money for a present to a co-worker, and so happened that i didn't have my phone at the time, so i couldn't transfer money on the banking app. When asked, i said: "Sorry, don't have a phone rn, can't transfer. But if you give me the number to which i should transfer the money, I'd do it as soon as I get home." - then some exchange followed. The HR thought that I didn't want to chip in, and it was my excuse. And I said something like: "Oh, no. If I didn't want to chip in, then I'd say that I don't want to give any money. I have no problem with that". This stuff comes automatically after enough practice. Being selfish is an incentive
It depends on why you lost it. There's a great interview where he talks to some guy about caregiver burnout that might be of some help. I am sure there are others that can be helpful but either way you'll need to know or find out why it happened in order to find out the best way to heal yourself.
The timing of this is great, just got promoted to a leadershio job and I feel like no one is really giving me the same respect/empathy as I do towards them.
They've probably never been in a leadership role before, while likely you have been in their positions, so it may be a lot more difficult for them to switch perspectives than it is for you. But in a sense, maybe that's the burden of responsibility, and what it means to lead. Because you are responsible, you are in a position where you have to do emotional labor like this that they don't need to match. I do not think such a culture is very constructive, but the way the system is set up that might be how it is, unless there is a way to change it maybe?
You need to have the capacity to be mean, but do the right thing. You need to have control over your emotional side so that it is not the first thing we see when we look at you (someone that looks "emotional" or stressed or not condident is seen as weak), and thus if you don't look confident, your orders to your subordinates won't seem like an order, but more like a suggestion that is very flexible (because you perhaps don't seem firm). -You need assertiveness therapy to be able to set boundaries. (Can also find good videos on youtube about that) ,but watch out, it is very easy to go from one side of the pendulum to the other, going from passivity to aggressivity; you want to be in the middle: Assertive. -You need to acknowledge and develop your inner dark side (to have the potential of being "evil", while still making the concious choice to do what is moral) Look up the psychological concept of the Shadow. -Then, you need to acknowledge that "It is better to be feared, than to be loved, if you cannot do both" -Niccolo Machiavelli (Look up a video summary about the book The Prince , by Machiavelli, for the core concepts) -Keep being a "good person" and doing the right thing, but acknowledge the following rules to gain and keep power: 50 laws of power by Robert Green (use the information contained inside wisely and for the good; and don't go telling the existance of this book to any bad intentioned person, it would only sharpen their methods).
@@SteelxWolf age definitely plays a role,yeah, and that's where you empathetic side comes into play: instead of being the tyrant manager that doesn't even want to understand their workers, you listen to their inputs if it's something they noticed would need to be ameliorated. To have their respect, they need to feel like they are listened/understood and not just being told what to do 100% of the time (they have more experience, and you're younger and so they are on the defensive). You need to be the guy who makes their life easier when possible. If they feel like you are an aggressive tyrant, they won't like you, but if they feel like you truly want the best for them aswell and you make them feel like you are sometimes shielding them from bullshit decissions from your own boss or your boss's boss, you will be liked. But you don't want to solely have "being liked" as a goal, because you could easily become a "people pleaser" for the workers you are responsible for and they'll just use you and see you as weak (which you would be). Sometimes you need to be firm, sometimes you need to have faith in them that they'll do it right (identify who has a track record of being competent at what they do; to those people, you can give them more slack; to some others you need to be more firm and have more of a father-like figure of authority: firm but fair, not aggressive but in control. As dehumanizing as it sounds, they are your children and your the parent here; you're the one responsible for them and the one calling the shots, you don't let your children control all the decissions; you give them credit when credit is due, you allow good decissions and restrict bad ones, but you listen and truly try to understand their perspective. Fair but firm.
This was THE video for me and I wish I got this advice years and years ago. Can confirm that out of my several years of being taken advantage of by narcissists is that the easiest way to "win" (more specifically, snap out of your empathy-mode and fully realize that they are manipulating you) is to cross-reference your opinion with other people in the environment with them. If they're a "friend" seen outside of your usual circle, try to bring them into circles with those you trust, then observe how they behave when they're around and check what your other friends think of them. (Hint: it usually doesn't end well for the narcissist).
@@idkwhatsmynamelol9281 Schizoids, my good man, schizoids. Not schizos. Anyways, it's an internet culture kind of thing which is very hard to explain and the best way to figure out what the Schizoids vs. Psychopaths is about, is to experience an event yourself.
@@TurningTesting I hear what you're saying, and I understand, however, that's not how these things work. These aren't emotions, these are more or less serious personality disorders, except for being an empath.
@@SickWheyfu I hear what your saying, and I understand, however the common denominator in all four is 'malfunctioning emotional responses'. The forest and the trees sort of thing. Unless we're splitting hairs
This is very good advice and it does really work. I feel like people are usually neutral when it comes to empathy so when there is an outstandingly narcissistic person you're most likely not the only person who struggles with them. Even if at first it feels like that the narcissists are on the top, when it comes to a group of different people the narcissists would be the outcast. I had this girl once literally scream at me for doing something I didn't know anything about in front of our peers. I think that her goal was putting me in the spotlight in front of others so I would take the blame. She left and I immediately I start explaining how weird that was. The others are immediately with me because they also see her as in the wrong. Her idea immediately backfired because of my awareness of the situation and my understanding of how other people feel a.k.a my empathy.
The more sophisticated narcisists will avoid coming at you like that in a group context. Because they recognize that's when they lose. They will only behave like that one on one and will try to use manipulation when embedded in a group. Being a succesful narcisist really is an art in and of itself to master.
Yesterdey i started to think about this same things and have been becoming more and more depressed about my situation this vídeo came at the right moment thank you dr K
You might have over simplifed what to do in these types of work place situations, often times it might be the case that the person who is narcissistic in the work place environment is being enabled by that environment or by other people in that environment, so talking about them with other co-workers could lead to more toxic interactions or worst case senarios getting fired. I remember I had a toxic co-worker who criticized everything I did even though others told me I was doing a great job, eventually I got frustated and talked about him to another co-worker and the next week I was laid off. It's near impossible to advise what to do in these types of situations because even the person enduring it can't provide all the details, you can't fully get it unless you see it first hand. Gray rock is another option this person could take, don't interact with anyone, don't share any thoughts, ideas, opinions, smile and laugh only when absolutely necessary, BE VERY BORING, SO BORING THAT THEY WANT TO LEAVE YOU ALONE, but just do the tasks of your job and call it a day. Start looking for another job ASAP.
I consider myself an empath who tries to have logical and respectful arguments based in the realm of reality. I firmly believe the best thing I ever did with one of my previously close friends was to set boundaries and then hold firm to them. Once I did that it got easier in all other parts of my life. You can be an empath and be able to put your foot down and say I don't want to have this argument and walk away. The first few times it gets uncomfortable. But then those people stop testing you and either adjust or disappear. That same person has since painted me as the villain saying, "i wont even ask him because he'll just give a firm no" completely oblivious to the reality that it came after years of no just not being good enough for this person. I am ok with this outcome and everyone else in my social circle see the situation for what it is.
Sounds like OP is confusing emphaty with his lack of assertiveness. He is literally just ranting about getting walked over due to his lack of assertiveness, not that his empathy is being taken advantage of. You don't have to be a turbo agreeable simp who constantly gets walked over even if you are emphatic. Two different things.
Hm, you're not wrong. But I've been in a situation where I felt like someone at work was acting toxic towards me and one of the reasons why I just threw my hands was because I put myself in their place and realized how miserable they were.
I am wondering, could you do a video about DID and OSDD? (DID is Dissociative Identity Disorder and OSDD I believe is similar). I've been suffering from it for a while but I can't find much information about it. I think that the analyses you give on topics are really good and and easy to follow, and I would love to finally understand what I've had going on.
I think because they expect people to have good boundaries. If they hear you want to do it they believe it. Not saying it's completely the empathetic person's fault but as an empathetic person myself after having done a ton of therapy and learning to stand for myself things go a lot better. The only way I ever improved the situation as an empathetic person was to acknowledge that I had the power. If I let the ahole control the scenario then they are creating my reality. Why would I approach the world from such a powerless position.
I've realised that my parents are narcissists (through no fault of their own, my grandparents are just shit parents who never engaged with them but enjoyed berating them), and I've begun to refer to them by their first names in my head. I disown them as parents because they aren't parents. I'm seriously considering if they will be in my life at all, let alone as grandparents. I may just never engage with them.
As an emotional person I have the constant fear of being wrong and having a bad effect on the person I’m trying to help.. this doesnt help me or the person in the long run
Unfortunately, narcissists are frequently construed in our culture as winners and dominant figures and alphas. It's unfortunate because not only is it blatantly incorrect according to a wealth of science, but it nudges already vulnerable and insecure people onto the path to develop more narcissistic traits themselves. When the strategy (narcissistic strategy) is to only put others down instead of working on themselves, sure in a relative and short-term sense they may gain some advantages, but at the end of the day being a narcissist is like being a hungry ghost because all of their internal pain that motivates their behaviour to seek domination never gets addressed, and no matter how many victims they create in the process they will never find satisfaction within themselves. That's why you can win any number of battles as a narcissist and ultimately always lose the war.
The capitalistic system we live in is dominated by short-term planning and short-term gains. And, for example, my country has existed on the "short-term horizon" for decades. I don't see how committing to short-term gains is a disadvantage or is not a logical adaptation to the current society.
@@kogorun I'm very inclined to agree with you, except for the conclusion you draw in the end. I would say one cannot become idealistic in situations like you describe, so I'm not entirely in disagreement there, but short-term gains by and large come with terrible mid- to long-term consequences. There's only one way out of that downward trajectory and that's investments in the future, IMO. Nobody is going to save us but ourselves.
@@kogorun Today I feel generous, so here you go: What is narcissism? First notice that in the Greek myth of Narcissus who was a youth in Greece who was condemned - he was cursed, to fall in love with his own reflection - there was a goddess who cursed him; first of all it's a curse, it's not a blessing - it's a hinderance, it's a disability, it's a problem, it's an illness, there's no positive word that can be associated with narcissism. It is not like many narcissists say, an evolutionary advantage, a positive adaptation; it is not like many current scholars suggest: a high functioning adaptation to modern civilisation and modern society - it's rather the other way around; individual narcissists have created civilisation and society in their own image and rendered it equally dysfunctional, not the other way. So of course: Within a dysfunctional society, dysfunction pays. It paid to be a psychopath in Nazi Germany, it was an adaptive strategy. The second thing in the Greek myth: the guy falls in love with his reflection, it's a very important distinction. He does not fall in love with himself; narcissism is not self-love. Narcissism is the love of your own reflection via the medium and the agency of other people. And here's the problem: Because you want your reflection to be perfect, omnipotent and brilliant and omniscient and God-like etc., you force people; you coerce them, you threaten them, you blackmail them, you manipulate them, into providing you with exactly this reflection. The third element in the myth is the youth. Pathological narcissism is a reaction to early childhood abuse and trauma. Now, there are many scholars nowadays who dispute this. They would say it's not true; we can find or we did find in clinical settings many people diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder who had not gone through, who had not experienced childhood abuse. The problem is with the scholars, not with narcissism. Scholars have a problem because they define abuse too narrowly. They take into account only classical forms of abuse, like physical abuse, sexual abuse, psychological and verbal abuse etc. These forms of abuse of course exist, they're egregious, they're horrible, they should be eradicated and countered and everything. But they're actually a tiny minority of the abuse experienced by children. Children much more often are subjected to the second type of abuse, which had been identified by Karen Horney in the '40s & that is when the child is put on a pedestal, idolised, spoiled, pampered - and so the child's boundaries are breached and (s)he is not allowed to separate from the parent, (s)he is not allowed to individuate, become an individual. These are also forms of abuse and most narcissists go through this route: as children they can do no wrong; as children they are not disciplined; as children they are not exposed to reality; as children they are not able to evolve and grow and develop psychologically and especially they are not allowed to become autonomous - separate from the parent, individuals - because the parent is in himself or herself immature and narcissistic and (s)he wants to merge and fuse with the child forever. (S)he wants to render the child and extension of oneself; or an element or construct within his/her own psyche. So it's intergenerational immaturity propagated via abuse that masquerades as love and caring - that's the most pernicious form of abuse.
I have the feeling that the person confuses empathy with conflict aversion. I myself am rather wary of conflict (not necessarily because I don't want to hurt the person, but because I fear a possible escalation). I know people who have a lot of empathy, but can also stand up for themselves when necessary.
I had to leave a job because of something like this. Everybody had problems with one specific person but the boss was her friend so all our complaints fell on dead ears.
there's a difference between being a good, empathetic person and being a pushover/doormat. it's easier said than done of course but its just another way to look at it
people are weird, its all situational tbh and this man must've gone through something or a series of things that made him feel the way, help those who really need it and will be thankful to you in the future, i guess here you should talk about how to identify those kind of people, no random person can use you like a doormat, its all your call whether to engage yourself with that person or not, again people are weird, be nice to everyone, do not waste your energy trying to attack others insecurities, people can be cruel and people can be nice too at times, focus on yourself and think just think what can you do for others so they can trust you and then maybe you'll find people who you can trust too, life is short, find people to stick with for the long term, do everything you can do right now so you'll never regret it, trust me you'll never regret being nice and helping the right person. If you're nice its a gift
Yeah personally I would go to co workers privately and talk about the person to see if they’ve been having the same issues, and once you think enough people have a problem with the person, go with a couple of co workers and meet with the boss/supervisor and explain the situation. Of course if the person in question is the boss, then unionize or just start looking for a new job
I am finally learning empathy with boundaries. It still feels weird, I feel very selfish and unempathetic but then I remember that this is how healthy people behave, my people pleasing was pathological.
YES YES YES! You don't really feel like it's you, right? Whenever I act assertive or set boundaries I feel so weird.
@@lucasgdrezes I feel like I am an asshole lol
@kogepanm that makes total sense mentally but some people(like me) while mentally aknowledging that, their feelings tell them "you just made this person sad" etc etc it depends on how you're used to handling a situation some things become engrained i think and sometimes it might be true and i m in the wrong, probably most times i misinterpret since whenever i follow it up people tell me it was normal interaction
Fuck bro, same!
It's funny, I was taught the "golden rule" treat others how you want to be treated right? then what happens when you don't give a shit about yourself and have no self respect?
I've hurt a couple and lost at least one freind because of this. But I want to learn empathy and care for other good people. I'll keep trying to treat people the way they deserve to be treated, with consideration, care, and thought regardless of how I'm feeling in the given moment. my emotions and upbringing have betrayed me. I'll seek awareness.
I feel for OP & understand their bitterness. Caring way too much almost killed me. When you go out of your way for someone & then they treat you like you’re disposable, it can really eff you up. Learning to redirect some of that abundant compassion I had for others back towards myself has been everything. Its a way to develop boundaries for your empathy too.
I feel you - I almost got killed for caring way too much too. Glad to hear that you're still alive, stranger.
I feel like i've read this before.
@@yearofthewooster9732 I’m glad you’re alive too
Vaccines have been Covered well by Professor Dave and Hbomberguy.
Unbiased and even entertaining.
It hurts when you give everything in you to your partner for entire your just for them to remove you from their life over the span of a week or two. It really does make you feel disposable.
just like mike tyson said “sometimes you gotta be a lion so you can be the lamb you really are”
"Man that is a friend to everyone, is an enemy to himself"
@@Rayon811 This is true, but some people can be psychotic or make your life so difficult sometimes it is best to shut-up and take this.
Dave Chapelles mom said that, maybe Tyson said it too.
That was Dave Chapelles mom lol
@@paulofurtado81 same person
I just got out of a toxic relationship with a bipolar girlfriend, and this whole post resonated with me as well as Dr. K's main issues with compassion and setting a boundary. I hope anyone else who gets trapped into people taking advantage of others' empathy learn to get out, and it's okay to be compassionate from a distance!
good for you. yes, compassion from distance works too.
lol same
same here lol
Yes, get out.
Was she fat?
This is genuinely helpful as a person that has a high stress job. I'm usually very nice to people, and connecting with clients was/is my priority, but when I come home I realize how much it emotionally drains me with no social benefit for myself, and half the people I talk to do not deserve it. So this was invaluable, because people HAVE said that I'm too nice to people. And now I understand where they're coming from. So now I have some homework to do. Thank you.
Wow, this really helped me understand my father-in-law more. He's one of those low-key, not obvious narcissists. He comes off as whiny one minute, and extremely rude and cruel in a passive-aggressive manner the next.
My husband and I took care of him after he had to have heart surgery, and he was a nightmare. He demanded I make him poached eggs whenever he wanted (which I did without a complaint, because I do care about him), and I even made him homemade soup.
Well, he just constantly complained about it all. Then went behind our backs, and lied to other family members that we were "neglectful" and borderline abusive! I fed him like he was my own child, despite literally already having 2 kids (ages 2 and newborn) to take care of. It was horrible.
Long story short, he's no longer in our lives. He was too dangerous, emotionally and sometimes physically. He would sometimes have blow ups where he'd throw things. He's not dealing with dementia either, which is really the only time IMO throwing things might be understandable, as dementia is terrifying. No. He's just volatile.
So, yeah, the best thing to do is to get away from the person, but if you work with one, man, that's really hard to deal with. Thankfully, we could expel this person from our life.
Hoooleee shit
That sounds like hell, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. Glad things are better tho! Makes me happy to here that you got out of that situation.
Childish people come in different ages, and you can't resonate with them. Good riddance!
What disgusting behavior I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. Talk about entitled and ungrateful, and then to throw things and become violent ffs.
This may be an uncharitable take, but I feel like the type of people who "care too much," or have, "too much empathy," and wind up getting taken advantage of are also caught in an ego trap of sorts. They've built their identity around being a caring and understanding person, that's why they can't say no or protect themselves, because it chips away at their core identity. You can feel a lot of that in this post, there are a lot of explicit and implicit value judgements being made that empathy equals moral good and person against me who doesn't feel it equals moral bad.
This is why Buddhists draw a very important distinction between empathy (which is bad) and compassion (which is good). Empathy is taking someone else's emotions and problems onto yourself and you wind up suffering, too. This is what leads to caregiver burnout, for instance. Compassion is simply understanding them fully as a human that has suffering and mental conditioning causing them to act a certain way, and wishing them well, but not allowing yourself to be emotionally impacted by their suffering or bad actions towards you, etc.
Loving kindness meditation can do wonders.
Yes! Overempathizing is codependent behavior, and compassionate detachment is the key
I need to learn how to empathize less, because I’m so tired and burnt out from a few people just using me as their therapists. Best of wishes to everyone else. 💖
This is the most important comment here for people to realise
I agree, this was exactly how i was, its not that people need to get meaner, it's not that people need to push people away, it's that people need to let go of their obsession to constantly be the one thats morally right, always taking care of others, the empathetic one, the one that's willing to carry the burden. They need to seek their identity elsewhere
It was hard for me to accept this, i felt shameful for being this 'selfish' but I'm slowly drifting away from it, there's ways to help others without sacrificing so much of yourself. After realising this, my friendships started being more balanced, a lot healthier
Empathy ultimately leads to communism.
Dr. k has a really good point 20 minutes onward… Narcissism is a defense mechanism & a function of the ego to protect ourselves & our vulnerabilities. Everyone has some narcissistic tendencies… I’ve found that victims of narcissistic abuse unfortunately sometimes wind up acting pretty narcissistic if they hold on to that bitterness. Myself included.
Same, sometimes it feels like the only way to defend against Narcissism is to be the narcissist, to be the hammer instead of the nail. Then you feel bad and end up getting taken advantage again. It’s a vicious cycle. I think the best way to get out is to first observe the people you would consider to be non-narcissistic but also non-codependent. You’ll notice that they are fairly “boring” people who mind their own business. They are off your radar. I think narcissists and co-dependents are always drawn to each other because they actually have the same energy, co-dependents are drawn to the narcissist’s percieved strength and status because they themselves feel weak and low status, the narcissist is drawn to co-dependents because they are “nice” and the narcissist is intensely fearful of criticism and abuse, and desperately crave validation. They are both simply suffering from low-self esteem. You’ll often notice that narcissist have people in their lives that treat them the way they treat their co-dependents and that “nice” people will often turn around and be mean to those who become vulnerable with them. The way out is to not play the game at all and actually raise your self-esteem in healthy ways, like taking care of yourself and your loved ones instead of chasing validation from others. Narcissists try to get you to put your self-esteem in their hands so that their approval and dissapproval mean everything to you, and this in turn makes them feel validated. When your self esteem comes from a strong internal place, they will sense that they cannot move you and they will become starved and move on. But it has to be genuine, you can’t fake it.
@@bigheadrhino i love what you said. On a similar note, I think what’s helped me… (besides anti-depressants lol)… was learning to not take shit so personally. People’s treatment of me has more to do with whats going on with them than it has to do with my actual value. I definitely had a tendency to externalize my self-worth. I think both empaths and narcissists do that in different ways. I don’t do that as much nowadays. Thank Goodness. Cuz it caused a lotta problems for me😂
Absolutely. I like to think of myself as accepting of other ideas but sometimes I become so narcissistic and full of myself, and I know that I become hard to deal with in those moments.
I have similar experiences. My father is pretty narcissistic and sometimes I think my mother also. You can't really argue with them...and watching this video I realized that one of my "best friends" is also this is why he always thought that my polite suggestions are "attacks". The scary thing is that now as I am less naive than I has been I become less empathetic than I originally was
I grew up with a narcissistic father and it took me until just a few months ago to realize just how much he was rubbing off on me.
It seems that when people identify themselves as an "empath" as if its a super power, it usually means that person was traumatized and they cant turn off their empathy because turning off empathy as a child meant their parent wouldn't take care of them and they might die. Empathy is normal, the inability to control it leads to a whole lot of misery. Speaking from experience. It is possible to choose when and when not to connect your energy to another human being, you just have to be present enough to know what you are doing.
holy shit thats so true, thanks for commenting this
In my experience, actual empaths don't make the information available early on, and those who claim to be empaths are often anything but.
it kinda is a superpower, considering that most people aren't (and i am not talking about people who use 'empathy' in politics, i mean actual empathic people)
It's funny, because when I tap into my repressed assholeness, I stay authentic and end up being wholesome while being virtually invicible with invasive people.
I think the key is developing your cognitive empathy. High levels of empathy can be one's greatest trait if they can put themselves in someone else's shoes and know how that person feels without actually sharing that person's emotions or burdens of life. (Think of how therapists can connect with their patients without feeling burnt out after a few ones with severe trauma).
Idk if he touched on that in the video cuz I didn't actually watch it lol but empathy is more so the ability to understand others while still being your own person rather than understand others while sharing their thoughts and emotions. But that would definitely be way harder for someone to achieve if they've got their own complicated past as you've said yourself, or if they're naturally the type to be overwhelmed by emotions.
I find what Dr K says about handling a narcissist through allies to be pretty interesting. It's something I've noticed as well, but for different reasons. A while back, Dr K had a video where he mentioned how one of the things people could do as a community is to call out toxic actions in games as they happen, especially regarding misogyny. Not to white knight or anything, but just to point out how a specific action by the attacker wasn't cool. How in-the-moment, it might not affect the attacker much, but if the attacker went through multiple different instances where random people kept calling out their attacks as not cool, it might cause the attacker to realize that maybe their actions really weren't okay.
So I started trying to actually do that / experiment with it across various communities. I had multiple cases where I'd see a person start attacking another just for a disagreement, and the attacker going too far (like resorting to personal attacks, trying to bait the victim to give personal information as fodder to attack them more, etc). In each of the cases when I called the attacker's actions out, they would completely switch their focus / target to me, and start attacking me as well. I'd roll with it, ignore baits, and continue to publicly but respectfully ask them why they did certain actions (re-framing the actions to clearly show why they were not okay). If the attacker somehow gains awareness in the moment, great, but more often than not, it provokes the attacker further, basically causing them to explode. But them exploding makes it really clear to the bystanders and higher ups, and it usually results in the attacker getting removed / banned shortly after.
So I think the whole calling for allies thing can be done in-the-moment even with bystander strangers, where you are technically talking to the attacker, but what you are saying is actually meant for bystanders to hear, which gives them something to work with so that they can jump in to help against the attacker as well. At least, those have been my experiences so far. I primarily tried this / experimented with this in gaming communities, so usually the attacker was publicly attacking a victim in a public, online chat (like in-game, or in a public discord community). Surprisingly, in every case I tried these methods, random bystanders eventually actually jumped in to help as well, especially after the attacker would explode.
We’re stronger together even if most people aren’t tough. Numbers/redirected attention scare off/kill the mood for attackers. Often times bystanders freeze/don’t do anything because they’re worried for their safety/just unsure what to do. If one person stands up to the attacker and hints to the remaining bystanders that they have options/focus the tension on the attacker (who’s imploding), others start to step up.
The attacker who gathers attention from a crowd has the potential weakness of losing control of the spotlight to defenders.
I immediately think of leffen when reading this. He's a narcassist in the smash bros community.
As someone who has allowed jerks to take advantage of me please do not let them influence your emotions. It’s ok to be sympathetic and care but when people are self centered or apathetic you really shouldn’t waste your time worrying about how they feel. You need to ofc be nice but do what’s best for you. Don’t do things for others just because you are sympathetic to their struggles or they offer friendship. That’s a good path into being manipulated and used. Good Friendships and good relationships are not exchanging services or doing all kinds of things for them.
You don't even have to be nice... JUST DECENT. I don't have to be nice to my neighbors or colleagues. I only have to use civilized language whenever I DO interact with them... and have the discretion to determine when it's best to just leave the sons of b****es alone.
AND there are perfectly polite ways to tell someone you dislike them and to f*** right off without having to be disgusting or derogatory about it...
"You and I are like oil and water. We do not mix. I only tolerate you because we both have to work here, and our personality conflicts aren't worth either of us losing their job."
"Frankly, no. I do not care what happens to you or what you do about it. JUST do it away from me."
"I know you have reports to hand deliver to me. You see that basket on my desk marked 'IN'? THAT is what it's for. Don't say anything... JUST put the reports in there and GO AWAY."
"Yes, I've been avoiding you for YOUR OWN GOOD HEALTH AND SAFETY... I'd appreciate it, if you'd start avoiding me, too. I don't need the jail time, but you're making it look more like a vacation." ;o)
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 woah love this, thanks dude!
@@evee3164 Always welcome. I occasionally got accused of being a "kiss ass" in the Navy, because I so rarely swore in front of others, let alone at them... I grrew to be so legendary about the non-swearing and non-shouting habit (I practiced hard on the craft of "dead pan understatement) that when something fell and DID "flack me", the resulting obscenity at the top of my voice nearly caused a riot...
BUT the reputation about "kiss ass" didn't stick around very long... It's a bit of an art. AND just for the record, it takes a little rehearsal to be able to stand and watch something remarkably inconvenient happen, and the mess result, and simply remark, "Welp... I could'a done without that."
In any case... I hope it helps. Sometimes it takes a few lines of "well crafted f***-offery" to inspire those creative juices. A little practice and some "top notch" lines of your own can be made ready for most occasions to rehearse and prep' so you have the verbal "ammo" for a confrontation to make someone just leave you be... or even go away. ;o)
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 thanks for the advice. I really do need to remind myself that not everyone deserves my time or my energy. It’s okay not to like people and get along with them as long as I’m polite. I think a lot of people are taught to kinda let people walk all over them. In result you have this huge number of people who are miserable because they care way too much about how others feel about them. When they should care for themselves and be kind to themselves first.
@@em_rip Always welcome... glad to help out with that clarification.
It's worth pointing out in my first "reply" if you look at that last "phrase" for telling someone off... It's a veiled threat, meaning I'm not outright saying "I'm going to hurt you" or anything, but the indication "I don't need the jail time" suggests that I might do something drastic, stupid, mean, and illegal as a direct result of further "forced" interaction...
My point is that there's enough language that you have the ability to say some pretty vicious things without using obnoxiously blunt language or being "rude" about it.
ANYWAYS... YOU are right. A lot of people have been led to believe that they should "play nice" and it causes too much worry about what other people think. Not everyone is going to like you or me particularly... I can tolerate it. I'm actually good with it. I hope this helps you and others with just a bit of inspiration to compose (and even rehearse) a few good lines for your own circumstances, so you can stand up for yourself and not get "called out" for supposedly inappropriate language.
We really can express just about anything without being crude or obscene. ;o)
I asked my boss not to schedule me with the two toxic coworkers, and he agreed not to. After the lockdown those two coworkers weren't re-hired. He knew that I got along with basically everyone else and that other people also had problems with those two. Since I am a really good worker according to him he decided to take my side. Don't stay quiet about these things! If your boss doesn't care then you need a new boss.
I will acknowledge that I used to be a much kinder person prior to going into the engineering field. But this work culture hardens you. It makes your heart turn to stone every time it's stabbed and torn up.
I value being kind, and I really, REALLY don't want to lose that aspect of myself. But self reflection tells me that i'm slipping. And that scares me to no end. I'm adapting to survive, but the adaptation is making me into what I hate most. Someone who is willing and ready to step on toes to get ahead. (Because like it says above: being kind will only allow you to be exploited.)
For what it's worth, when I do find someone who I believe to be a kind person, I will do my best to elevate them, even if they take opportunities I may have been hoping for. For a kind person, I'm willing to give them that reward for somehow existing in such a cold hard field. I genuinely wish them well, almost like a proud parent.
Note: I'm fresh out of college, and I'm turning into a veteran in mindset already. I'm no longer a kind person, but I will never stop trying to be kind. Its a moving target that I see value in always trying to hit.
Be careful of the kind people you find backstabbing you and not caring about you in return after a while. Altruism is rarely rewarded in our world and that reality check coming from places you don’t expect can knock you off track real hard,
@@kknumber20 Thats why we have only very very few actually close friends which we can rely on. Always been that way, harsh reality of adulthood and getting worse with this me me me and my happiness culture.
But what makes you feel you’re not a kind person? Just because you gained thick skin from your career or work doesn’t mean you’re not.
How you are at work versus who you are outside of it still allows you to be kind. There’s many ways we can be kind to each other-volunteer work, leaving kind or supportive comments on someone’s social media, shoveling a neighbor’s driveway, donating clothes, asking someone if they need help, giving food to your local food bank, letting someone merge in front of you in a packed highway, paying for someone’s meal, etc.
Now I get all this can be taken advantage of, but it doesn’t have to be all the time. Maybe make it a monthly goal to practice one act of kindness because I do believe we all have it at our core. Humans had to practice this to survive with one another and rely on each other hundreds of years ago. It’s how we collectively co exist and can help make a difference.
Coworkers and jobs aren’t our lives you know? They pay the bills and utilize our skills, but in my opinion that’s about it.
I too feel I’m jaded at times, but I’ve caught myself doing things that I feel are kind and I’m like okay I guess I’m not that bad… don’t be so hard on yourself. It’s a weird transition from college to workplace and make sure you’re giving yourself time out of work to enjoy yourself and hobbies.
I teared up a bit with your post. I use to be very shy and kind. I've gladly help out if someone asked me because it didnt effect me at all to do so but as I got older and got into the real world I began to see that some off those people that ask or rather dont ask just give it as n order most often they do it because they are lazy or they dont want to do it themselves so they ask you instead to do it for them. I began to see how I was being taken advantage of because I never said no. I see it alot for fresh young adults how kind and willing they are to grow and learn but slowly it's like we become corrupted by societies junk of selfishness
The codependent empath is someone who had to be hyper vigilant in their childhood, and as an adult fawns and has difficulty placing boundaries that would actually support them
Part of the confusion is the idea that to be selfless is an absolute virtue. Not always. Sometimes to be selfless simply means to neglect yourself, or even just to be cowardly. One has to be willing (and brave!) to bare their teeth sometimes; to take risks; to have confrontations. Some things in life have to be fought for.
Spot on bro 💯
Wow this really speaks to me on so many levels. OP's description of a Narcissist sounds like they're describing my ex-wife, who ended up gaslighting me during our entire relationship, but unfortunately didn't realize until we separated and I was no longer under her control. I reframed it in my mind as a learning opportunity which lead to me finding my current partner and having an amazing fulfilling relationship now because of it. It also made me realize I needed to find a career which made me happy and fulfilled, so I just finished my Professional Counselling Diploma and got a job as a Withdrawal Management Worker where my empathy has a major positive effect on those who really need it.
Same here. My whole life I've been trying to please and benefit others, expecting that this is the way to go and everyone does that out of respect for one another.
With time I realised that not only did people not do the same for others or me but they activly leeched and took what they could get without reflecting their behavior.
They literally behaved like selfish animals.
The days it dawned on me how many people out there were and what behaviour they showed were amongst the most dissapointing ones in my life.
"Everyone is selfish except for me"
Sounds like a really self-oriented perspective.
@@anthonyskrzypczak9437 just trolling I guess?
What works for me is to be logical and reasonable instead of emotional. I acknowledge the empathetic emotions that I have, but I make sure they're not done in a foolish way. Even family members can take advantage of others being overly empathetic. I think just being smart has worked for me.
I completely agree. It makes it easier when you a truly competent and can defend yourself using sound logic.
Thing is truly selfish and narcissistic people aren’t listening.
i dont think you can be logical without being emotional. its so important to be in touch with your emotions in order to understand why you believe a certain thing which actually leads to logic in the long run
@@SlurpySlime Depends on how thoroughly thought out your value system is. If you already have a strong concept of the ethics you wish to embody it's entirely possible to emotionally dissociate in the pursuit of trying to see an objective truth because sometimes holding to an ethic hurts emotionally to do.
I was gunna say this, I've found adhering to logic, and avoiding a narcissist attempts to engage in an emotional fight they can tear you down in, is kryptonite to them.
I had a boss who totally supported all narcissistic behaviour 150%. He explicitly praised it.
I had those issues early on and the best way to win at something rigged against you is to just not play. Those people who try to manipulate or take advantage of you being in their life will probably not change just from you being their friend. So just don't, walk away. Fewer emotionally healthy friends is much better than many toxic friends.
I want to understand exactly to how people come to the conclusion you could potentially "fix" someone, i don't get it.
If someone is a annoying fuck JUST cut them from your sight
@@blahblah94897 A lot of people become friends with someone before knowing who they truly are. Or some people push the boundaries of friendship more and more over time.
Or they are a classmate, coworker, or family member. And then you don't have the option to cut them out of your site. Human interaction can be complicated.
@@amp7980 >Become friends with someone before knowing who they truly are
That's a problem created by themselves as only when you know someone at least by a 80% they can be called friends, and no that 20% wont be their "dark side" you can see the signs and if you cannot, talk to other people who knows the person and if they don't have friends that's already a orange flag.
>Forced into the person
Do it anyways, there is ALWAYS gonna be a point where its not a outside circumstance but its them forcing themselves into you and at that point you MUST force them to fuck off or die trying, simple as.
@@blahblah94897 lol, the only way to know who someone truly is is to bring them into your life and hang out with them. Most people consider that a friend, and even if they dont, that person still has an impact on your life. So, whether you consider that a friend or not, sometimes it is too late to escape that person without leaving a big mess. I'm not saying that you shouldn't look out for signs, but saying it's the fault of the person who interacted with the toxic person is ridiculous. I was friends with someone for 2 YEARS before I found out he was a creep. I cut him off immediately but saying it's my fault that he hid that part of himself so well is absurd. A lot of people hide their negative traits until they feel more comfortable. Not just narcissists. Its probably part of why divorce is so common- and why I believe you should date for like 3-5 years at least before marrying. Even then, some people completely flip a switch after marriage no matter how long you wait.
@@pocketsoup8338 Okay, maybe for me its really simple and it comes to my mind naturally what to say, look for and ask to know whatever a person is bad or good and i realize not everyone has had the same experience. What I will say is I cannot refute your claim of not being at fault as i would basically be asking what happened those entire 2years.
To me, the distance between "Person I know" and "Friend" is very large, people tend to be too friendly for what I preserve but I wasn't trying to say its the victim's fault that is never the case, I wanted to write that being a little more cautious could result in more successful relationships.
(And most couples break up because of a lack of communication)
I'm a highly empathetic person, and though I have never been in a serious situation where I've been taken advantage of (that I can recall at the moment) I remember when I was about 9 or 10 and a person asked to lend some money from me. I only had less that a dollar (I was a grade school kid after all) but I gave the money anyway, because I've always had a bit of trouble saying no to people. The person promised to give me back my money someday, so I waited. I even asked for it a few times but they said they'll get to it sometime, which made me feel like a bad person for asking for the money back. (it was likely not anything they said, but my own weird brain that thinks that everyone else's time, money, etc is worth more than anything I have to offer) Anyway, I'm still waiting for the money but the person has likely long forgotten all about it
Be like where’s my money 😁🔪
@@Bambi-nv2ze haven't seen or heard from/about this person in years, I don't even know if they still live in the same area they used to. Also, it was less than a dollar, so there's no point
@@ManTehLemons most people have actually paid me back the money that I've given them but now I select the people I lend money to extremely carefully, not just give it away to random people a few years older than me who I see only around school every now and then. Also, I don't give money if I can't afford it, I'm still salty that I couldn't buy that Kinder penguin back then.
I think you got a really good deal, overall. You managed to buy extremely useful personal experience about lending for less than a dollar. And the other person didn't even get one measly dollar for it!
I learned this lesson young as well and it has served me well
This is literally the video I needed today. I've been dealing with similar issues with someone, who thankfully I am able to walk away from, but who always seems to be able to re-enter my life when my shields are down so to speak. It's resolved now, but I've still been left with serious doubts whether the fact that I give a damn about other people is a vulnerability or not.
So I've thought about it and I'm extremely empathetic and relate to pretty much everything the rant poster said. Although I also get extremely emotional when someone passive aggressively makes fun of me or takes shots at me. I was wondering if I am secretly a narcissist because I get mad or frustrated by (seemingly rightful to be mad at) things that others do towards me even though I can easily recognize the passive aggressiveness they try to hide...
Listen, you are not a narc. There are degrees to narcissism, and we all engage in narcissistic behaviour. A little bit of narcissism is actually a good thing. As long as its in balance, thats what you need to make sure your needs are taken care of. The fact you’re even questioning if you’re a narc, thats not something narcissists do. Do you ruthlessly take people down because of how insecure you are? Manipulate your friends and family to always get what you want? Lie through your teeth for your own benefit?
Yes narcissists at their core are deeply insecure. But they ultimately dont actually care about what other people think or feel in terms of how their actions negatively effect them. Its their way or the highway.
Doctor Ramani (a psychologist also on youtube) made a great video on High emotional sensibility/empathy vs high reactivity (typically seen in narcissistic folks). This could be a good starting point to explore, she also has several great videos for both narcissists and people in their lives of any type of relationships.
I figured out all the narcisstic traits I had were overcompensation from hyper-arousal. As I learned to feel and let the negative emotions flow through my being instead of repressing and avoiding them, the need to crush others faded away.
Look into reactive abuse, because NPD individuals will poke, prod, and harass you until you end up saying something out of character. While you then end up feeling immediate remorse, they got the supply they needed and get a high off of how they were just able to control your emotions.
Reactive abuse always has us feeling sick and questioning if WE are the one with NPD. Maybe? You may be a self-aware narc like "Mental Healness" channel or you may not be and just suffering the confusion of the real NPD individual's manipulation that has you doubt yourself.
I also suggest reading "Safe People" by Dr. Henry Cloud. I just listened to it on Audible after experiencing reactive abuse, and it has helped me understand how to better discern a safe and unsafe person.
People who are high in agreeableness are often also very high in resent because not only are they very willing to put up with other people's poor behaviour but they are also not willing to say anything that might create further conflict. Like a punching bag that wants to tell people to back off but feels they're not allowed to express that, and so all their unhappy feelings just stew inside.
Having observed some narcissistic individuals I believe they create their own hell from nothing. Any "victory," if such can be said to exist, is phyrric for them.
Wonderful insight as always Dr. K. I found this video to be centered on narcissists and as someone who grew up with a narcissistic mother, your dialogue about how narcissists will not take constructive criticism because they are internally dealing with things is SO true and so insightful! This is truly one of those “it’s not you, it’s them” situations which makes it so tough for the person going through all of this! I also could not agree more that there are great bosses out there. I am so fortunate to work with a wonderful boss and I think that trust between one and their boss is pivotal for your success at your job.
Ive been living this situation for the past few years. This narcasssist could murder half my office and theyd still be protected sometimes theres more layers to it.
It was refreshing to hear someone address the situation with a "Fight back" mentality when usually youll hear people say something like "Be the bigger person and ignore them"
When I'm around narcissists or disagreeable people, I tap into the darkest repressed parts of my personality, and it allows me to autopilot their attacks, evade and respond in a proportional manner. I dive into the fear/anger/sadness of their blows, which make these emotions fade away and allow me to keep my footing. The depth and stability it gives me just end up scaring them away.
Doesn't work when shit gets physical and they're bigger than you
@@anthony.3085 If that happens I think you have a very reasonable case to get out of that dynamic, stat. Whatever reasons you think you have for not GTFOing, they're probably not worth it and there's alternatives. But in most cases, physical altercations aren't the end all be all of arguments, literally one of the main purposes of laws is so people can't just use violence willy-nilly, no matter their size, so what OPs saying is very viable. If they do get violent and you can prove it, I don't think they are in a very favorable position at all even if you have to take a beating for it.
@@marzipancutter8144 regarding GTFOing, what would be the best escape path for someone who doesn’t have any local friends, for one reason or another
@@cookiesmcsalsa1281 I'd say looking for a local shelter. These are institutions specifically designed to take in people in situations like these. That's because this situation isn't exactly rare, it's a common technique to keep you friendless so you have no one to turn to.
@@cookiesmcsalsa1281 Not sure, I think YT is censoring my comment for using the word, but try searching for something like
""aßu$e shelter" and you should come up with a tool that should help you find one hopefully near you. But do it discreetly. The worst thing that can happen is them snooping on your devices and find out while you're still planning.
A good way is to always remain rational and calm. The calmer you are the easier it’ll be; if you are enraged by someone, you’ve already lost.
Anger is an emotion, being emotional doesn't automatically equate to a loss. It's what you do with those emotions that determines the outcome. Anger can help you, provided you don't lose yourself in it.
The problem arises when you are talking about someone who knows you very well and can find weaknesses about you and use them against you in arguments, even if it has nothing to do with it
@@Tracker947 in an argument it does. Arguments are meant to be rational and fact based
@@peterroberts4415 Arguments are often won through emotions. You need both.
@S E B Your mind is the last bastion against the world. No matter where you find yourself in life or what you are faced with or forced to endure, the only thing in this world that can ever truly be yours and yours alone is your mind. Don't surrender that to other people. You might not be able to stop your feelings, and you shouldn't even if you could, but you can control the thoughts and actions that you assign to those feelings.
I love the restrained responses when in the meeting in them and not giving in to emotional responses to their baiting or being threatened/pressured into responding to accusing outbursts and keeping redirecting anything personal aimed at you to talking about objective facts and the collective good/general principles that nobody can really argue with and maintaining the air of being an empathic grown up mediating while they're tantruming like a child.
I think raising one's eyebrows high in visible surprise or giving a slight side-eye might be more effective than rolling your eyes because it's harder to pinpoint as disrespectful and more explicitly perceived as "neutral" but it gets the message across to everyone including them. (Even though eye-rolling is also just subconscious for me and I think only very sensitive people - like narcissists - actually take it personally).
Raised eyebrows is a very "grown-up" and dignified gesture of disapproval that makes it clear *they* just acted out more than appropriate in this setting of professional adults, but you're too restrained and professional to stoop to the level of acting out or responding emotionally.
Side-eyes implying skepticism/suspicion without saying it overtly - because you're too "nice" and "professional" and "wouldn't want to disrupt the meeting/work environment".
Raised eyebrows or side-eyes also primes others to think twice about the interaction they're witnessing (that and the fact that you're not responding equally venomously so it's clear only one person is being a problem here while the other is listening to them, staying on task with the company's prerogative and appears to be trying to be de-escalating). I'm noticing a real power here in the *lack* of response and being especially restrained, keeping everything impersonal and professional, while also being overtly polite and respectful. It appears the method is actually to play to your empathy and self control as a strength and a discipline in not losing your cool.
Keeping cool, on task and ultra restrained and NOT responding seems to be the real challenge can be really hard to do in practise if you're stressed out by the prospect of being around someone who may affect your family dynamic and livelihood, so it's good to practise it on low-stakes scenarios - say with people on the internet in a discord channel that you're not that attached to for example.
One way to visualise it (for me) is seeing it like a "courtroom" of public opinion (or I guess a political situation) where you know you can be fact-checked or nitpicked so you are very careful to say ONLY what is relevant and avoid any emotional baiting, respond to direct quotes literally and don't misrepresent any meanings or leave room for interpretation or claims of misrepresentation.
Ways to take the pressure off may be to practise it first in online group chats where you are less personally invested or affected by the person and also don't have to respond instantly.
I want to share my experience of this, as I actually did this today with a narcissist in our apartment block's group chat when the narcissist was tantruming about how they wouldn't report security violations "since people don't listen and I'm sick of policing people" (the real reason was because people voted against them installing their own cameras to personally monitor the complex) and that they should just let people's flats get broken into to "teach" people to be more vigilant.
I pointed out that this was inappropriate and relayed a story from the other day where someone had attempted to break into the house of a family on the bottom floor right by the gate that was left open by someone else and went unreported, and pointed out that while [the narcissist] may feel safe, some apartments on the ground were more vulnerable than others. I also pointed out that this is a security group and that they are not obligated to be in it but this is its purpose. (Maybe I was pushing my luck there).
The narcissist tantrumed and made it personal, accusing me of "always picking on them" (I'd criticised them once before) and I kept redirecting and trying to make it personal.
I kept the focus on security and the wellbeing of the group and the importance of us being vigilant and remembering when we go outside and check the gate is locked properly that some of us are far more vulnerable than others. To their direct accusation of me trying to "make them look bad" I simply said "when someone criticises something you do they aren't always trying to make you look bad. I assume we're all just trying our best to improve here."
One person stepped in to try equivocate our behaviour, saying something like "we can't just have you two having a go at each other" and I simply replied "Is that what you saw happening here? 🤔" left it at that without driving any further points or seeming like I "needed" to win an argument, and then said "but I'm going to leave it at that as I don't think dragging this out is beneficial for the group, apologies for the spam in the group everyone, I just feel this issue is very important, we need to keep vigilant" and just politely re-requested that we keep the focus on security and remember to think of the more vulnerable apartments when we're closing the gate.
I think being the first one to leave the conversation and showing unwillingness to drag out any unpleasantness for everyone else to read probably also was interpreted in a positive way by the group.
This was my first time feeling confident enough to engage "confrontationally" with this kind of person. Self-therapy (all I can afford lol) and following Dr K and DoctorRamani and some others has been really helpful in processing my CPTSD and deconstructing my past abuse and becoming aware of my past vulnerability towards narcissists, terror of manipulation (from being raised by two narcissistic parents and indoctrinated in a cult as well) in order to feel confident in managing them and asserting boundaries.
But yeah, emotional restraint, verbal restraint and sticking to objective, unquestionable narrowly defined facts and the collective benefit seems to be the way. And not HAVING to win - a healthy level of detachment about the outcome to keep calm and disciplined in your restraint I guess.
Thank you Dr K, you were the one who taught me this (this is my second time watching this video)!
Wow. Thank you! You are the first person who has had actual steps on how to deal with this type of behavior, in a healthy and doable way. Thanks so much for your great content! Really helps
I really struggle with feeling like all of the suggestions given here are manipulative in and of themselves. I feel like talking behind anyone's back isn't ok, talking badly about someone who isn't there isn't ok, rolling your eyes and getting someone riled up isn't ok, setting a trap basically for someone isn't ok... I feel like I always have to set others up to win.
I recognize this is unhealthy for me, especially that last one, and I've heard advice like this for years. But actually getting it to feel ok, to feel right and ok in my soul... or probably my ego? lol, is the hard part. I just haven't been able to take any action like this even knowing it's in order to protect myself, because it feels manipulative and therefore wrong.
I agree. Rolling your eyes is incredibly passive aggressive and then telling your boss you're doing "nothing" is a lie.
Agreed. I was thinking "but isn't that abusive?" especially when it comes to rolling your eyes for the purpose of provoking a reaction and then acting like nothing could have possibly provoked the reaction. It seems like fighting the narcissist with their own tools is the answer, but you know what they say about wrestling with a pig.
I literally can't stop rolling my eyes when people are dumb
To me, it's actually morally worse to be complacent and let the psychopath/narcissists scot free. I'm willing to dirty my hands to protect those around me and myself from their bad behaviour.
@@KT-lt4fy That's a good point. I struggle to act on it even so.
19:20 that's the prisoner dilemma
nice ! i formed a significant part of my ethics around that
One of my "best friends" was a narcissist / untreated borderline. I once called her out on a promise she failed to follow up on, and she snapped, shouted in my face and started accusing me of God knows what, in public.... I "hate people", I had been "rude to her daughter" (even though she could never specify when and how), etc. Lots of unfunded claims like that. We "reconciled" there and then, but I went home from that gathering, blocked her on all social media, blocked her phone number, etc. My life is more peaceful now.
Kind of sad losing a friend, but I just have to remind myself that someone who gaslights me and repeatedly breaks their promises only to flip when finally called out on it, is not a friend.
Oh, and she "hates academia" because, well, people with an education earn more than she does, and there's something shady with everyone who's not in her little clique, she struggles a lot with her emotions but of course everything that upsets her is someone else's fault... it's pathetic. I'm just glad to be out of it.
my little brother (we're 2 years appart) is the most narcissistic person I know and when we were little he had an enourmous inferiority complex towards me.
I hated playing with him because we always ended up in an argument at the end and I was always the losing one. Before I was 6 I could rely on my parents to stop him when he threw tantrums, but then my parents told me :"your playing with your little brother so we consider that we don't have to intervene anymore".
The situation became really hard to deal with and I hated my parents for the fact that they did not realize that my brother needed to see a therapist.
I'll try to explain how horrible it was to play with him, so first of all he cried really easily, the smallest amount of pain would make him cry and it was the only thing that could make my parents react to our "games" and obviously I would get punished hard for making him cry :"your the strongest here, your the responsible one, so don't make him cry" so I couldn't just beat him up when I was angry. I've had some traumatic experiences when I was 3 or 4 that now makes me almost pass out when a part of my body is locked in place and I can't move it. and obviously my brother had to be naturally really heavy to make it so hard for me... so basically in a fight I can't punch and he just had to get on top of me to win... oh and of course don't ask him to stop ! he somehow became stronger and stronger every time I asked him to... when we had normal conversation he would always try to win arguments that doesn't even exist with the worst logic you've ever seen and then we would fight and I would lose
Also the thing is, up until I was 10 I thought my brother was normal because every person I talked to told me things like :"my little brother is the most annoying in the world"
And the link with this video is that I naturally developped the skills dr K talks about and I basically won by hinting at my parents that my brother needed to see a therapist (but to be honest the reason why I didn't asked my parents directly is because I was affraid they would think that he had no problems and I was just bad at dealing with him and that if he were to see a therapist without being ok with it it would be pointless so I expected my parents to talk to him) and the situation became much better after that.
The problem I have now is that I also gained other "skills" that I didn't want to learn at all like the inability to express anger or to enjoy things fully and let other people see my weaknesses... I'm working on it today but it takes time
If he has a inferiority Complex I wonder how do you treat him? Or what kind of people he hangs around with.
@@mgbm8335 remember most of it happened during my (and his) really really early life, so the answer is really easy as to why he was like that :
I was the one who was stealling his mother it's the first reason (or maybe the prime reason) and I have proof about that because he only left my mother's bed when he was around 8 and always tried to steal the affection I was getting from her
The second reason was probably because I was the one who could play with our big brother (he is 10 years older than me) and the reason why was because I was a really anxious and obedient child, I was exactly how he wanted me to be because I listened to all of his complaints. so when I was watching him play video games for example, I was like a statue, don't talk don't move don't make sound (it took me years to have the courage to ask him if I could go take a chair to sit while watching him play)
the last reason was because I was too obedient (it's kind of linked with the second reason actually) I listened to everything I was told and did my best to please everyone and so throughout my early life I constantly heard praise from adults like :"he is the perfect child for a parent" "he is sooooo mature so smart" (btw I hate the fact that I received those because it was everything but true) and on the opposite my brother never got any kind of praise because he was just so disruptive and so overly excited. He must have felt like it was unfair but I never talked with him about it so I don't know if it's exactly those reason or not, I might have forgotten some things or maybe I just haven't yet realized some other possible reasons....
@@manabuhorikita969 yeah I had Obedience issues too, although y'all were very very young...when we're young we're most stupid.
There is some signs though of feelings of inadequacy going on there already. Hopefully that stuff changed, maybe not. In general it sounds like you don't really have a good bond with him, emotional bond.
@@mgbm8335 I know how it looks from an outsider's perspective and I am myself trying to take a look at it from a distance but basically my view on the issue was really different when I was little. yes there were a lot of times where I absolutely did not want to play with him at all because I felt the need to be left alone and be by myself but there were also a lot of times where I liked to play with him, and sometimes I was the one coming to him simply because of this logic : I like him until I don't and I love to play with him until I don't anymore. When I was little it almost felt natural for me, that things would end up bad for me in the end... I was actually really bad at complaining about things that bothered me, like for example my first grade teacher despised me for some obscure reason and because of that she made fun of me and insulted me almost all the time (I think she only was doing that to me) and I never saw nor felt the problem until my mother talked to me about it several years after... So I always forgave my brother for anything and we yes are not as close as before but things are still going well today (I'm 18 btw so I think it's natural that we are taking different path today). Oh ! and I almost forgot but he was my only real company because I could only play or watch my big brother playing video games during the weekends for around 1 hour each day... (my parents were (and are still) usually talking by themselves complaining about their day of work and never really interract with us appart from the things like school work or telling us when we have to sleep or eat)
So I think the only thing sad between my brother and me is that I have to do everything possible when talking to him to not activate his bad sides. And that's funny because when I talk to my brother and he is trying to make me angry I can calmly respond to all of his little traps but people listening him talking to me gets infuriated even though they are not in the conversation. Also I kind of got my revenge on my mother because as I started to take distance from my brother (when I was around 16) he started going towards my mother a little more and she realized that she can't talk to him for more than 5 minutes without getting fed up. And you have to understand that he was 10 times easier to talk to because he became way calmer with the therapy and with the age. And so I can't even discribe the feeling I got when she asked me :"how do you deal with your brother ?"
@@manabuhorikita969 hehe, relatable. Except I have a older brother btw. I really don't like to visit my Dad's house (been with him for 17 years... now it's a back and forth thing...), after all the alcoholic days, anger issues in general, mom always angry too (Divorce was bound to happen tbh... they're Spanish btw).
When I ACTUALLY go to my Dad's house (even though we're not supposed to because my Mom has a Boyfriend and she brings my half sister, Boyfriends Daughter, to my dad's house), It's like going back to a burned house. Dad still getting mad at my Brother because of my brothers Ego/Cockiness, kinda talks about our Dad like he's nothing sometimes, (I wouldn't do that sh!t imao).
In short, the cycle of dysfunction seems to start again even after we moved away ... and I don't wanna keep going to my Dad's house anymore, it's awkward as f!CK too.
I don't see a future for me tbh. I'm 19, I turn 20 this year...and I need to find work badly.
This is me. This is so me. With each person that wrongs you, it's so tempting to just give up on your humanity. But the more you cross path with them, the easier and the faster you'll spot them and you'll eventually be able to keep them at arms lenght before you're too hurt. But it does take practice... a lot of it.
"When you finally stop letting them walk all over you and set boundaries, they will see you as the villain." ... So? So you're not so selfless after all then, you still cared about your feelings more than your boundaries or being the villain. Let them think you're the villain, you're not the villain for setting boundaries but no one will actually hand you your rights, sometimes you just gotta take it. But when it's time to be selfless and compassionate then do so. That's how you're a better person. Being smart with who you're compassionate with. It's like some people think being empathetic means you gotta stop thinking or something. Also, there are conflict resolution techniques you could use strategically. You could learn those to make your life at work a little easier, to equip yourself better if you think this is an on-going issue throughout your life. That's what I would do.
This was and kind of is basically my relationship with my mother xDD
Although we have managed to change it for the better a little bit
Same, I was thinking of saying this exact same thing... only the difference is I'm 16 and can't "leave" her
@@cristianwithnoh2951 I haven't either xD Although it is true that she is usually in her boyfriend house, and comes back every once in a while.
Anyways, good luck mate, the only think I can tell u is that :/
OPs comment is what I dealt with on a daily basis when I was active duty Navy. (I know it's life in general too, this is my experience since I hopped to a fast food job, community college then to the Navy.) I always wanted to keep the peace even though there was plenty of times I could of retaliated or raised hell, etc. I didn't want to create drama and in the end - I thought going on a ship was going to be a good stepping stone in my career. It ended up with me spiraling. And after one of my shipmates committed suicide I couldn't pretend that I could keep being part of that organization. Now, after a long fight with the Military system...I am no longer in the Navy.
This was a great video I'm going to keep your points in mind!
I'm 2 minutes in, and scrolling through the comments sharing similar stories, and this doesn't sound like a problem with empathy at all. This sounds like a problem with being extremely high in agreeableness and not having yet learned to exercise your capacity for disagreeableness in a healthy way.
Plenty of people are empathetic. Very few let themselves be walked all over, because then they're not showing empathy to themselves. They have no trouble communicating a boundary when they're not respected, and if the disrespect continues, they walk away, and find other people who will treat them better.
Thats true - i fall into this category. Im empathetic, but not very agreeable as i was raised by three overbearing older sisters - which taught me to keep my guard up, since they usually would take advantage of me being younger and overall a nice person. Its almost impossible to argue with them, so instead i just became difficult and disagreeable, and that carries over in the rest of my life. its not always good and i had to learn to be MORE agreeable at work especially since it almost got me fired a couple of times.
"they're not showing empathy to themselves." - this is also a big part of it. The agreeableness usually stems from a need for validation and/or safety due to lack of confidence and self-esteem.
This is definitely an empathy problem as well. Dr K specifically mentions people who are very high in empathy and how they have problems with setting boundaries. This is not the same as being agreeable - there is a lot more that goes into the ability to set boundaries than just having the right amount of disagreeableness and a lot of these problems come with the emotional and rational complexity of the social act of setting boundaries. If you read the comments here a lot of people actually report feeling bad because their empathetic side is overvaluing the "pain" that their own boundaries might cause another person.
Learning to be disagreeable can be a useful skill but there is more to the emotional side of this problem that isn't solved just by being disagreeable.
@@Teilnehmer Yeah, that's a good point. I think it's also worth mentioning that people with zero empathy can struggle to set boundaries, too, and let themselves be walked all over. They're fictional, but Wormtail in Harry Potter and Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings come to mind as good examples of not caring for others but still letting themselves be dominated and pushed around.
@@Balloonbot People aren't always agreeable because they're weak or insecure. It's a pillar of personality. About half the population is just agreeable by nature.
I'm a extreme empathetic person, to the point I wish I cared more about myself and my own success. Id rather help others and let others feel cool if I'm on the butt end of the joke because I disect it immediately and just don't care or have a high ego, I view it as if they wanna feel cool go ahead idc. But I need to set boundaries and this made me realize that
this video came at a good time, a longtime friend who has had a tolerably low level of narcissistic traits had an episode because he didn't like how I was choosing to spend my free time. Thanks as always Alok
Damn in this channel I’m finding you talking about topics that I thought other people didn’t understand. Thank you so much, it’s very helpful
This hits harder when you have a stuttering problem for over a decade now with no therapy from parents
I like the interviews, don't get me wrong. They have great value. I gotta say, I dig these lecture-type videos a little more. Huge shout out to the entire HG community. Big love, and thanks for all you do.
Im really happy that you pointed out that the post was very easily readable as narcissistic - it sounded exactly like a rant that a narcissist in my life would go on. Except for that ending part, as you also pointed out
Great vid 💚👍
I don’t know how much this has to do with ego but having to uproot your life because of a bad person certainly seems like getting the short end of the stick. You have to leave everything you’ve been working for and go through weeks if not months of double the grief to find a new job. No matter what, you’re in a situation that means you always have to do more work than people who are willing to be mean. Ego or no ego it seems like the fact that you have to give up what you’ve worked for just to get treated decently really is getting the short end of the stick
Don't think about "winning" an argument, try to get the other person to think. The Socratic method might not work with narcissistic people though.
This is the video ive been needing to see, thanks algorithm
Haha I mean without watching the whole video (just the beginning) I think it’s a terrible idea to talk with people like this if you can help it, that’s literally my entire family.
Had the best Christmas ever this year because I finally cut them off. I didn’t have to perform and buy Christmas presents that would never be good enough for them this year and instead did meaningful gifts only for those I care about. I joked that if I’d known things would have been this great I would have cut them off years ago haha 😆
I understand why I didn’t before; because I didn’t have that support network in place besides my family and I also needed to see how horrible they really are so I could really walk away without thinking “what if”.... but seriously you don’t have to deal with that kind of bullshit.
I cut mine off two and a half years ago. Feels great and I don’t miss them at all.
Right yes he touches on this, leaving narcissistic people. There is a way of detaching without physically leaving so they don’t live in your head rent free so to speak.
Definitely build up your other relationships, seriously everything you give in a relationship with a narcissistic person is going to go nowhere or will be used against you so just recognize that and give less and less. (It could take a while for this to truly register)
Get to a place where you just start to recognize that it’s truly unworkable. Every time you feel the urge to directly interact with that person, find out your reasons why you want to do so, and try and meet your need in another way.
Literally 90% of the time you’re doing it for your own closure, so really just remind yourself their lack of flexibility and openness to working together is closure. Try to find your answers as to why it’s not working and that will be your closure. You’ll have to remind your brain if it wants to interact with that person that it’s not working and it won’t work the way the brain wants it to work.
Then from there you can start to build up the other relationships and with time it’ll matter less and less.
I’m totally game for devils advocates here though. 😝
I relate a lot to this post and feel like it's something that has stunted me. Things feel helpless and feel like anything I do is wrong, so I largely don't try as a result. The main difference would be that I'm only partially empathetic and partially lack it. On one hand I care how others are treated, on the other I don't care. Drama has probably desensitised me for the latter. Anyway, the notion of trying to bait a narcissist feels incredibly manipulative to me and I would rather help them see how destructive their behaviour is to others and according to Dr K, themselves too. It seems like the solution is rather to put your needs above the needs of others. If a narcissist is fired, they will still impact others around them wherever they go. So in this way, it seems being more selfish protects you more. I feel like if you get really skilled in baiting/manipulating people's emotions, then you can really benefit so long as you don't gloat about what you're doing and stop caring how others feel.
The only problem is, trying to get a narc to "see their destructive behaviour" is exactly the bait that will flow into the "conflict you can't win". It will ALWAYS be inefficient with a totally narc personality, unless that person is actually an empathetic one with the "narc shields" up.
It's okay to try and help people, but some of them will never learn, and will probably need a licensed therapist anyway.
So please, keep being you, but recognise when you can't go on any longer and then step away; life is too short to cultivate bitterness at the expense of others'.
Dr K actually explains how to beat a narcissist in this one - you should really put this in the title, it's incredibly useful!
I just got out of a one year relationship about a month ago. I've learned everything I could from it but it still hurts so much. I messed up a lot throughout the relationship, but no matter what I always tried to improve and become a better person. My partner on the other hand very rarely could accept that they made mistakes and always put the blame on me. I was always convinced I was a terrible person that couldn't change, because no matter how much improvement I made, it just wasn't good enough. It took me until after the breakup to realize how much I was being manipulated and gaslighted. I tried to make them realize just how much they were truly hurting me, but like the past, everything was always my fault. After everything, they're somehow convinced that I've done them wrong. That I was a terrible person to them, when all I did was give them my all and try the very best I could to adjust to whatever demands they made. I was suspecting more and more over the past year that I have ASD and I'm on the spectrum. The more and more I look into it, the more and more it seems a possibility. Looking back, the majority of the things I "did wrong" were just symptoms caused by my suspected ASD. Things that I tried so so so so hard to stop doing. It hurts so much to even attempt to comprehend how someone you loved more than anyone else and that you gave everything in you to could be as cruel as they were. Even though I realize now how shitty of a situation I was in, I still find me trying to blame myself for everything that happened. I just don't understand how someone could do everything my partner did and just think they didn't do anything wrong nor care about what they did at all. They also always talked to their friends about whatever I did do wrong or supposedly did wrong, while I kept everything to myself and thought about how I could improve myself and the situation. Some of their friends are also my friends. I really don't know how to prove to them that I'm not the monster I've been made out to be. It's really hard to do that when your name has been dragged through the mud for an entire year and the only things you spoke about to your friends were the mistakes you made and how you could improve yourself and prevent them from happening in the future. I never really talked about what my partner did. I don't know what to do. To just give up trying to explain my side of the story? Or to stand my ground and explain myself, but live through the pain longer because I have to retell everything I've been through?
You can watch Dr. Ramani. She has a TH-cam channel, and she did a video about your situation. My advice is cut everyone from your life, and go no contact
This is great. I wish I could like the video more. Thank you for posting this.
Thank you so so much for this.
There was a perfect comment in chat: the writer is not enough assertive, not too empathic. I consider myself emphatic, i am told I am lile that and i never get into arguments, but i can stand up for myself because I know it is my right and sometimes it is the right thing to do. I never felt like narcissist necessarily win in life and I think a lot of the research in that regard should consider how power makes you, and not just the end result of character of the people in power.
Amen to that. I'm only 2 minutes in and the problem obviously isn't too much empathy. Caring about others doesn't mean being a pushover, because then you're not caring about yourself.
Just spotted another good comment in chat: "stop hanging out with toxic people"
So true, it's why I just ignore the argument in the 1st place 99% of the time.
It would be funny if during a therapy session the therapist said 'dayummm' after you finish explaining your problems lol
I love how this video is basically like explaining a match up im a fighting game
This post reminded me of my mother. That’s a Situation where you can’t just leave because it’s a blood relation.
I've heard something very similar way too often. Most of the time this is just a mental barrier set in place by the abuser. Depending on the severity, absolutely get in touch with CPS.
@@marzipancutter8144 I’m 23 so I don’t need CPS lol but I get what your saying. As a man, I feel that this issue happens a lot to other men because your mother is your mother like most of us were given everything by our moms and only when we grow up do we realize how wrong or right they were to do the things they did and no one wants to hurt their mom telling them that they ended up causing you pain.
@@xXWyTeBreaDXx Ah, I get what you mean now. I've been thinking of worst case scenarios because that's what people around me have been dealing with in their past.
Lucky I've been spared of these issues myself, but It's sad seeing that decent parents seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
Just now learning how to turn off my empathy. I used to think it was wrong to ever be unempathetic, but I’ve realized I’m a person I need to take care of as well and I can’t spend all of my emotional energy on that.
Vaccines have been Covered well by Professor Dave
I worked with someone like this and I feel for this person writing the post. I worked with an older woman who would undermine me, ignore me, something was wrong it was my fault, put heavy flimsy items on huge stacks and even going up to management saying I never did work and when I put in to leave working with her she just flat out pretended like I never existed. I didn't get out of working around her but it made it so much better.
As a high empathy neuro divergent. I offer the boundaries i set for myself. Offer kindness to those deserving.
Offer malice to those deserving.
Approach everyone new on even ground.
Human consiousness is a bendable thing. With some work and exercise you can mold it into anything. I too was extremely empathetic, until I realized that it's overall a net loss, both mentally and financially. Sometimes even physically. As soon as I realized that, I started to reflect upon my actions and try to correct yourself.
When you correct yourself afterwards, or make a mental note, the nex time, when a certain situation arises, you won't make the same mistake as frequently as before. With enough time the frequency drops dramatically.
Nowadays I have no problem with saying no, in fact, I most of the time say no. Recently i had a situation, where the hr was busy collecting money for a present to a co-worker, and so happened that i didn't have my phone at the time, so i couldn't transfer money on the banking app. When asked, i said: "Sorry, don't have a phone rn, can't transfer. But if you give me the number to which i should transfer the money, I'd do it as soon as I get home." - then some exchange followed. The HR thought that I didn't want to chip in, and it was my excuse. And I said something like: "Oh, no. If I didn't want to chip in, then I'd say that I don't want to give any money. I have no problem with that".
This stuff comes automatically after enough practice. Being selfish is an incentive
Commenting for the algorithm gods. Dr. K's content is top tier, as always
Is there any Dr. K video about losing empathy and how to regain it?
Just spend time in relaxing environment, it'll comeback eventually when you're no longer in fight/flight mode
It depends on why you lost it.
There's a great interview where he talks to some guy about caregiver burnout that might be of some help.
I am sure there are others that can be helpful but either way you'll need to know or find out why it happened in order to find out the best way to heal yourself.
This episode is FIRE!!!
The timing of this is great, just got promoted to a leadershio job and I feel like no one is really giving me the same respect/empathy as I do towards them.
They've probably never been in a leadership role before, while likely you have been in their positions, so it may be a lot more difficult for them to switch perspectives than it is for you.
But in a sense, maybe that's the burden of responsibility, and what it means to lead. Because you are responsible, you are in a position where you have to do emotional labor like this that they don't need to match.
I do not think such a culture is very constructive, but the way the system is set up that might be how it is, unless there is a way to change it maybe?
You need to have the capacity to be mean, but do the right thing. You need to have control over your emotional side so that it is not the first thing we see when we look at you (someone that looks "emotional" or stressed or not condident is seen as weak), and thus if you don't look confident, your orders to your subordinates won't seem like an order, but more like a suggestion that is very flexible (because you perhaps don't seem firm).
-You need assertiveness therapy to be able to set boundaries. (Can also find good videos on youtube about that) ,but watch out, it is very easy to go from one side of the pendulum to the other, going from passivity to aggressivity; you want to be in the middle: Assertive.
-You need to acknowledge and develop your inner dark side (to have the potential of being "evil", while still making the concious choice to do what is moral) Look up the psychological concept of the Shadow.
-Then, you need to acknowledge that "It is better to be feared, than to be loved, if you cannot do both" -Niccolo Machiavelli
(Look up a video summary about the book The Prince , by Machiavelli, for the core concepts)
-Keep being a "good person" and doing the right thing, but acknowledge the following rules to gain and keep power: 50 laws of power by Robert Green (use the information contained inside wisely and for the good; and don't go telling the existance of this book to any bad intentioned person, it would only sharpen their methods).
@@Zeon7510 thank you for this, I will look into it
@@Zeon7510 I think part of it is that im at this position as someone who is younger than most of my coworkers. Age plays a part in some of it I feel.
@@SteelxWolf age definitely plays a role,yeah, and that's where you empathetic side comes into play: instead of being the tyrant manager that doesn't even want to understand their workers, you listen to their inputs if it's something they noticed would need to be ameliorated. To have their respect, they need to feel like they are listened/understood and not just being told what to do 100% of the time (they have more experience, and you're younger and so they are on the defensive). You need to be the guy who makes their life easier when possible. If they feel like you are an aggressive tyrant, they won't like you, but if they feel like you truly want the best for them aswell and you make them feel like you are sometimes shielding them from bullshit decissions from your own boss or your boss's boss, you will be liked. But you don't want to solely have "being liked" as a goal, because you could easily become a "people pleaser" for the workers you are responsible for and they'll just use you and see you as weak (which you would be).
Sometimes you need to be firm, sometimes you need to have faith in them that they'll do it right (identify who has a track record of being competent at what they do; to those people, you can give them more slack; to some others you need to be more firm and have more of a father-like figure of authority: firm but fair, not aggressive but in control.
As dehumanizing as it sounds, they are your children and your the parent here; you're the one responsible for them and the one calling the shots, you don't let your children control all the decissions; you give them credit when credit is due, you allow good decissions and restrict bad ones, but you listen and truly try to understand their perspective. Fair but firm.
This was THE video for me and I wish I got this advice years and years ago. Can confirm that out of my several years of being taken advantage of by narcissists is that the easiest way to "win" (more specifically, snap out of your empathy-mode and fully realize that they are manipulating you) is to cross-reference your opinion with other people in the environment with them. If they're a "friend" seen outside of your usual circle, try to bring them into circles with those you trust, then observe how they behave when they're around and check what your other friends think of them. (Hint: it usually doesn't end well for the narcissist).
Fun Fact!
Vaccines have been Covered well by Professor Dave and Hbomberguy.
Unbiased and even entertaining.
Ah, the two eternal wars:
Schizoids vs. Psychopaths
Empaths vs. Narcissists
How are schizos and psychopaths correlated?
@@idkwhatsmynamelol9281 Schizoids, my good man, schizoids. Not schizos. Anyways, it's an internet culture kind of thing which is very hard to explain and the best way to figure out what the Schizoids vs. Psychopaths is about, is to experience an event yourself.
And here I am cycling between all four multiple times a day.
Greetings from emotional disregulation forest 🌻
@@TurningTesting I hear what you're saying, and I understand, however, that's not how these things work. These aren't emotions, these are more or less serious personality disorders, except for being an empath.
@@SickWheyfu I hear what your saying, and I understand, however the common denominator in all four is 'malfunctioning emotional responses'.
The forest and the trees sort of thing.
Unless we're splitting hairs
This is very good advice and it does really work. I feel like people are usually neutral when it comes to empathy so when there is an outstandingly narcissistic person you're most likely not the only person who struggles with them. Even if at first it feels like that the narcissists are on the top, when it comes to a group of different people the narcissists would be the outcast. I had this girl once literally scream at me for doing something I didn't know anything about in front of our peers. I think that her goal was putting me in the spotlight in front of others so I would take the blame. She left and I immediately I start explaining how weird that was. The others are immediately with me because they also see her as in the wrong. Her idea immediately backfired because of my awareness of the situation and my understanding of how other people feel a.k.a my empathy.
The more sophisticated narcisists will avoid coming at you like that in a group context. Because they recognize that's when they lose.
They will only behave like that one on one and will try to use manipulation when embedded in a group. Being a succesful narcisist really is an art in and of itself to master.
Yesterdey i started to think about this same things and have been becoming more and more depressed about my situation this vídeo came at the right moment thank you dr K
I have zero energy for playing drawn out games with narcissists. I get blunt very quickly and people aren’t used to it. It doesn’t work well for me.
You might have over simplifed what to do in these types of work place situations, often times it might be the case that the person who is narcissistic in the work place environment is being enabled by that environment or by other people in that environment, so talking about them with other co-workers could lead to more toxic interactions or worst case senarios getting fired. I remember I had a toxic co-worker who criticized everything I did even though others told me I was doing a great job, eventually I got frustated and talked about him to another co-worker and the next week I was laid off. It's near impossible to advise what to do in these types of situations because even the person enduring it can't provide all the details, you can't fully get it unless you see it first hand. Gray rock is another option this person could take, don't interact with anyone, don't share any thoughts, ideas, opinions, smile and laugh only when absolutely necessary, BE VERY BORING, SO BORING THAT THEY WANT TO LEAVE YOU ALONE, but just do the tasks of your job and call it a day. Start looking for another job ASAP.
crystal clear - great insights
makes sense
I consider myself an empath who tries to have logical and respectful arguments based in the realm of reality. I firmly believe the best thing I ever did with one of my previously close friends was to set boundaries and then hold firm to them. Once I did that it got easier in all other parts of my life. You can be an empath and be able to put your foot down and say I don't want to have this argument and walk away. The first few times it gets uncomfortable. But then those people stop testing you and either adjust or disappear.
That same person has since painted me as the villain saying, "i wont even ask him because he'll just give a firm no" completely oblivious to the reality that it came after years of no just not being good enough for this person. I am ok with this outcome and everyone else in my social circle see the situation for what it is.
Sounds like OP is confusing emphaty with his lack of assertiveness.
He is literally just ranting about getting walked over due to his lack of assertiveness, not that his empathy is being taken advantage of. You don't have to be a turbo agreeable simp who constantly gets walked over even if you are emphatic. Two different things.
Hm, you're not wrong. But I've been in a situation where I felt like someone at work was acting toxic towards me and one of the reasons why I just threw my hands was because I put myself in their place and realized how miserable they were.
Thanks Dr. K
I am wondering, could you do a video about DID and OSDD? (DID is Dissociative Identity Disorder and OSDD I believe is similar). I've been suffering from it for a while but I can't find much information about it. I think that the analyses you give on topics are really good and and easy to follow, and I would love to finally understand what I've had going on.
I think because they expect people to have good boundaries. If they hear you want to do it they believe it. Not saying it's completely the empathetic person's fault but as an empathetic person myself after having done a ton of therapy and learning to stand for myself things go a lot better. The only way I ever improved the situation as an empathetic person was to acknowledge that I had the power. If I let the ahole control the scenario then they are creating my reality. Why would I approach the world from such a powerless position.
7:21 Magicarp! USE SPLASH ATTACK
Oh my god Dr. K is savage lmao. Don’t do it with malice but do protect yourself.
I love you
I love you too
I love you too
I also love you
I, too, love you
its refreshing to see someone offer up manipulation tactics as a path to betterment rather than tearing other people down
I've realised that my parents are narcissists (through no fault of their own, my grandparents are just shit parents who never engaged with them but enjoyed berating them), and I've begun to refer to them by their first names in my head. I disown them as parents because they aren't parents.
I'm seriously considering if they will be in my life at all, let alone as grandparents. I may just never engage with them.
The Power of Friendship
Being selfless and empathic is very natural to me.
This is fucking fantastic. Can't believe this is free!
As an emotional person I have the constant fear of being wrong and having a bad effect on the person I’m trying to help.. this doesnt help me or the person in the long run
Dr. K when in clinician mode is basically telling us what the optimized build is for one's classes are. That's awesome!
Unfortunately, narcissists are frequently construed in our culture as winners and dominant figures and alphas. It's unfortunate because not only is it blatantly incorrect according to a wealth of science, but it nudges already vulnerable and insecure people onto the path to develop more narcissistic traits themselves.
When the strategy (narcissistic strategy) is to only put others down instead of working on themselves, sure in a relative and short-term sense they may gain some advantages, but at the end of the day being a narcissist is like being a hungry ghost because all of their internal pain that motivates their behaviour to seek domination never gets addressed, and no matter how many victims they create in the process they will never find satisfaction within themselves. That's why you can win any number of battles as a narcissist and ultimately always lose the war.
The capitalistic system we live in is dominated by short-term planning and short-term gains. And, for example, my country has existed on the "short-term horizon" for decades. I don't see how committing to short-term gains is a disadvantage or is not a logical adaptation to the current society.
@@kogorun I'm very inclined to agree with you, except for the conclusion you draw in the end. I would say one cannot become idealistic in situations like you describe, so I'm not entirely in disagreement there, but short-term gains by and large come with terrible mid- to long-term consequences. There's only one way out of that downward trajectory and that's investments in the future, IMO. Nobody is going to save us but ourselves.
@@kogorun Today I feel generous, so here you go:
What is narcissism?
First notice that in the Greek myth of Narcissus who was a youth in Greece who was condemned - he was cursed, to fall in love with his own reflection - there was a goddess who cursed him;
first of all it's a curse, it's not a blessing - it's a hinderance, it's a disability, it's a problem, it's an illness, there's no positive word that can be associated with narcissism.
It is not like many narcissists say, an evolutionary advantage, a positive adaptation; it is not like many current scholars suggest: a high functioning adaptation to modern civilisation and modern society
- it's rather the other way around; individual narcissists have created civilisation and society in their own image and rendered it equally dysfunctional, not the other way. So of course:
Within a dysfunctional society, dysfunction pays. It paid to be a psychopath in Nazi Germany, it was an adaptive strategy. The second thing in the Greek myth: the guy falls in love with his reflection,
it's a very important distinction. He does not fall in love with himself; narcissism is not self-love. Narcissism is the love of your own reflection via the medium and the agency of other people. And here's the problem:
Because you want your reflection to be perfect, omnipotent and brilliant and omniscient and God-like etc., you force people; you coerce them, you threaten them, you blackmail them, you manipulate them,
into providing you with exactly this reflection. The third element in the myth is the youth. Pathological narcissism is a reaction to early childhood abuse and trauma. Now, there are many scholars nowadays
who dispute this. They would say it's not true; we can find or we did find in clinical settings many people diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder who had not gone through, who had not experienced childhood abuse.
The problem is with the scholars, not with narcissism. Scholars have a problem because they define abuse too narrowly. They take into account only classical forms of abuse, like physical abuse, sexual abuse,
psychological and verbal abuse etc. These forms of abuse of course exist, they're egregious, they're horrible, they should be eradicated and countered and everything. But they're actually a tiny minority of the abuse
experienced by children. Children much more often are subjected to the second type of abuse, which had been identified by Karen Horney in the '40s & that is when the child is put on a pedestal, idolised, spoiled,
pampered - and so the child's boundaries are breached and (s)he is not allowed to separate from the parent, (s)he is not allowed to individuate, become an individual. These are also forms of abuse and most narcissists
go through this route: as children they can do no wrong; as children they are not disciplined; as children they are not exposed to reality; as children they are not able to evolve and grow and develop psychologically
and especially they are not allowed to become autonomous - separate from the parent, individuals - because the parent is in himself or herself immature and narcissistic and (s)he wants to merge and fuse with the child
forever. (S)he wants to render the child and extension of oneself; or an element or construct within his/her own psyche. So it's intergenerational immaturity propagated via abuse that masquerades as love and caring
- that's the most pernicious form of abuse.
I have the feeling that the person confuses empathy with conflict aversion. I myself am rather wary of conflict (not necessarily because I don't want to hurt the person, but because I fear a possible escalation). I know people who have a lot of empathy, but can also stand up for themselves when necessary.
I had to leave a job because of something like this. Everybody had problems with one specific person but the boss was her friend so all our complaints fell on dead ears.
When I learned about boundaries, I felt a sense of relief. But when I learned about these maneuvers, I feel like a god now.
there's a difference between being a good, empathetic person and being a pushover/doormat. it's easier said than done of course but its just another way to look at it
I'm liking the new thumbnails
A great book that talks about this is Give and Take by Adam Grant
people are weird, its all situational tbh and this man must've gone through something or a series of things that made him feel the way, help those who really need it and will be thankful to you in the future, i guess here you should talk about how to identify those kind of people, no random person can use you like a doormat, its all your call whether to engage yourself with that person or not, again people are weird, be nice to everyone, do not waste your energy trying to attack others insecurities, people can be cruel and people can be nice too at times, focus on yourself and think just think what can you do for others so they can trust you and then maybe you'll find people who you can trust too, life is short, find people to stick with for the long term, do everything you can do right now so you'll never regret it, trust me you'll never regret being nice and helping the right person. If you're nice its a gift
Yeah personally I would go to co workers privately and talk about the person to see if they’ve been having the same issues, and once you think enough people have a problem with the person, go with a couple of co workers and meet with the boss/supervisor and explain the situation.
Of course if the person in question is the boss, then unionize or just start looking for a new job