The TRUTH about Automatic Motorcycles and DCT
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.พ. 2024
- Are automatic transmissions in motorcycles the worst thing ever? Or will they save and expand the sport of riding? In this week's episode, Mark and Kevin answer audience questions on automatic transmissions, and DCT, and Honda's push to offer them more and more. They talk tech and philosophy. Tune in to learn what Mark and Kevin think about the rise of Automatic Transmissions, and its impact on motorcycling.
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I had an Africa Twin DCT and LOVED it. I have a Tenere 700 now because I wanted something lighter and narrower, but if I ever went back to the Africa Twin, I would 100% choose the DCT; it was awesome! It is hilarious to me that some people are so passionately opposed and want others to think the way they do. Why do they care? Ride what you want, and let others ride what they want.
My English sucks. But here goes. How does a rider on a dct mimic ' low speed slipping clutch manoeuvres'' Does a rider mimic this methode by replacing all 'low speed slipping clutch manoeuvres' with the 'draging rearbrake methode'?
@@DraganBakema that is a popular method. I prefer to just utilize careful throttle control.
@@DraganBakemaI can do stand stills to auturn with no tear brake. It's actually easier. I can this right hand only. But... I'm all about a clutch!
Why spend more money for a much heavier system that costs much more to repair when a 6 speed sequential transmission and clutch works so well and is so easy to use .??
I'm 75, been riding since childhood, bought a Rebel 1100 DCT and I'm loving every mile. When my '97 Suzuki Bandit 1200 gave it up (in 2000) I was looking around and saw the Rebel DCT and thought I'd take a chance. I don't do thousand mile rides anymore but I enjoy riding, so I gave it a try. No going back now... :)
Same here i love my cmx1100, is just, great spexialy after inpreloaded the rear spring now is a joy to cruiser down the keys.
Nearly every supercar, hypercar, GT racing, formula 1/e etc., has a DCT at this point. So why is it such a bad thing on bikes?
After fifty years of riding the first thing I learned about my Africa Twin DCT is that it’s not an automatic. On the contrary, it takes just as much to learn how to use it as a manual. But, after a few thousand kilometers in many situations I came to admire its virtues and adapt to its limitations. While I do believe some of its functionality is superfluous, it’s still a very interesting and engaging piece of engineering. I like it, and I like my manually shifting bikes too; lucky are those who have choices!
It's an automated manual
I personally love my Gold Wing DCT and I have been shamed many times. Now I smile and say let’s go to the mountains and catch me if you can.
Well dont have one because of the wait, but have tested and is a great pice of a machine. Enjoy it.
Not a problem to catch a gw in curves, dct or not
That would depend on who is on it.
Thank you Honda for this amazing DCT innovation! I am someone who started riding a manual transmission bike many years ago, but due to a non-motorcycle related injury, I can no longer use a shift lever. Subsequently, I thought my riding days were over completely, until the DCT came along. Now as a “differently abled” man, ( I don’t label myself as disabled) I am thankful that I can once again do something that I really enjoy! Also, my Honda Rebel CMX1100 DCT can outperform a lot of bikes that are on the roads and I love it! I have absolutely no problem accepting change, life happens. When it’s beneficial technology, I’m all for it! Thanks for the informative and insightful video guys. 👍
Differently abled ! I'm a member of that club too ! Can't wait for the day I can ride again .
@@decencywarrior9598 “Differently Abled” I am pulling for you!! It takes faith, determination, hard work and commitment and you will get it done! The first thing I realized was that the term “disabled” is a label 🏷️ that gets slapped on people who have suffered a life changing injury or illness! I refuse to wear that label. I can to do a lot of things that “abled” people do, I just do them differently. Therefore, I am differently abled! You will get there! 💪
Love my Africa Twin with DCT. I actually suffered a clutch thumb injury from commuting on a BMW with a stiff clutch. It's been five years now and I think my thumb has recovered but still ride the AT. I was glad to stay on two wheels and now have grown to love the DCT. It's great tech.
@@thoughtsparks I agree with you 100%. It’s all subjective, if someone wants to ride a Manual or DCT bike there’s no problem with that. I am grateful that the option is available because there was a time when a person with a of physical limitation had to hang up their helmet because only manual bikes were available. At 64 years old I’m glad that I am not an “old head” when it comes to change for the better. The phrase “Ride your ride” encompasses a lot. 👍
If nothing else giving more riders with injuries an opportunity to ride then I'm happy for those folks. After a crash at Bonneville in 2023 it took me a few months to get my left hand working. If my left hand had not began to work again I would have went to an automatic transmission after 55 years of riding.
had the Honda 750 automatic from 1977 great bike and now I will be buying a DCT bike only way to ride a bike again have had little use of the left hand since a work accident great vid guy's
I had a test ride on a NC750X DCT, and knew it was going to be my next bike within a couple of miles. When I got back to the dealership I put a deposit on one. That was back in 2016 I still own the bike and have no intention of changing it. My mates thought I had lost my mind trading in my 2010 Triumph Speed Triple SE for it, I can tell you it's the best decision I've ever made with motorcycles.
Great video with plenty facts and truths. 👍
DCT is excellent for 2 up, excellent for highway and long trips, nothing better out there IMO. For me, owning multiple bikes, I wish I had bought the manual version. I would love to see them keep the DCT but add a clutch, so you could use it if you needed like low speed or at stops. Also when coming into gas stations on long rides when I am tired, engaging the clutch just helps navigating all the vehicles. I love the DCT, but really wish for the Clutch.
Kevin Cameron.
Casey Stoner wanted the electronic aids removed when he first started racing in the Moto GP class, and every year he was participating in it.
It was NOT a "get off my lawn" moment said years after his retirement.
If the electronic aids were not on Moto GP bikes when he was racing them, the other competitors, including Rossi, would not have even seen which way he went.
He would have left them for dust.
In fact, when Ducati were testing to select a new rider for their new 800 Moto GP bike, Casey was not their first choice.
At the test, Stoner was not going as they expected and Casey's father, Colin, suggested to the Ducati team that they wind back all the electronic aids as much as possible, and let Casey ride the bike again.
They reluctantly agreed to try this, and after Stoner rode the bike again, he was signed as their number one Factory rider.
He won the first Moto GP round on it, dominated the rest of the season, and went on to win the Moto GP Champioship that year.
If you want to witness THE BEST riders at the highest level of Moto GP racing, I think you should respect what Casey Stoner is suggesting in removing some of the electronic rider aids.
I don't know if we are watching the best riders available now in the series, just as when the big-bang engines were introduced in the 500cc GP days, suddenly all these EURO riders were running with Doohan, Gardner, Rainey and Schwantz.
Mick was smart though, called for the old screamer engine to be fitted to his bike, and beat all the big-bang Euro riders, just to show them who the most talented rider was.
On Stoner, there are two interviews on TH-cam with Nicky Hayden and Ben Spies where they explain why Casey Stoner is the most talented rider they had witnessed in Moto GP.
The Moto GP team data guys will tell you the same thing.
Without electronic rider aids, you will get to witness the best riders.
Thanks Gents! I have followed both of you for many years dating back to when I had a magazine subscription to Cycle World - glad to be able to STILL enjoy your commentary, in whatever fashion that is still available. I recall an old CW article on the VFR1200 DCT wherein it was ridden across country...when DCT was still in its infancy. Amazing that riders, nearly 15 years later, are still complaining about this advancement in the technology. While I will be sticking with a manual transmission for my newly ordered 2024 Africa Twin AS, the DCT model was a serious consideration...Cheers from Ontario Canada!
I watched this podcast with great interest. I have ridden the dirt, street, trials since 1970. Have been test riding new Gold Wings after many years without one. The dealer has been pushing the DCT during test rides. As a trials rider the hardest thing for me to give up is the low speed handling advantage the clutch has. Thinking that I will spend more time on the two lane than I will in the parking lot is helping me to lean towards giving the DCT a try. I will likely always have clutched bikes in the stable to keep those skills honed.
Love the podcast. As a long time rider and current Honda DCT owner I agree with Mark the only time I miss a clutch is on low speed U turns.
A great discussion about technological advances, from an old school analog motorcyclist! Caused me to wonder what how the world's axis would wobble if the 'Bagger's' racing series would include/allow Goldwing DCTs, K1600s, FJR-1300s, et al. My last ride was on a '06 FJR-1300. The whole motorcycle experience has changed since I last rode in 2010!!!! As a 69 year old, I look forward to experiencing some new tech, while being able to resort to that which I know as I re-enter the motorcycling world.
I recently sold my Africa Twin with DCT. I really liked the DCT, but the size of the bike was too much for my off-road skills. The DCT added another 20 pounds to the bike, but it was easy to use the paddle shifts when I was riding off-road.
Part of the problem is that with journalists etc resisting DCT Honda and the rest of the industry has failed to advance DCT. For instance much of the weight of the DCT is because it is essentially an add on gear box between the manual and DCT. Honda have a patented design for the NC750 which simplifies and reduces the size of the whole engine package but have apparently had no reason yet to use it as the NC seems to have been pushed into a commuter role. With different engine designs and electronic clutches , and even foot shifters, Honda could basically revolutionise motorcycling but resistance to change has had an important part to play. Ironically every man and his dog are introducing quick-shifters and DCT is, in effect, a very fast quick-shifter as it even preselects the next cog.
Just recently discovered your podcast and love it! It would be great to listen to you guys talk about the isle of man TT race on what it takes a rider to compete in that race.
Very interesting discussion gentlemen. To never try something new is to remain fixed in the web of time.
Interestingly, the first generation Toyota Prius was designed to keep the engine at the optimal speed for best gas mileage, but that meant that it would go to a particular RPM and hold it, resulting in a "motorboat drone" sound on acceleration. This annoyed customers to the point that the Toyota added faux shifts on the next generations, even though they actually reduced fuel economy a tiny bit.
I published a review of one of the first DCT-equipped Gold Wings. I did a full sidebar piece on the experience of working with the Auto trans...calling particular attention to the fact that the control unit had a nasty habit of upshifting when one rolled off the throttle to set up a corner entry. To Honda's credit, they actually re-programmed the DCT control unit to consult the bike's Inertial Management Unit and not shift if the bike was leaned over -- my input was actioned and the problem was fixed. Also fun was the seamless upshifts at full throttle - not many folks would think to keep a full dressed Gold Wing Tour in a power wheelie through the first four gears, but with DCT, it was a cinch. Heck, it prolly would have kept the front wheel up all the way to 7th, but I was already well into 'go directly to jail' speeds, and didn't want to stretch my luck on a West Virginia public highway. Let's hear it for progress! ;-)
I was sooo looking forward to the Honda E-Clutch discussion. Is that posted anywhere?
I have a 2022 HD Road Glide, and just bought a 2024 Goldwing DTC. Wasn't sure if the DTC was right for me after shifting motorcycles for 40 years manually. Yes, it has taken some miles to get used to, but the bike will shift for you if you want, no clutch pulling or you can control it manually with paddle shifters, instant gear changes up and down. It's really fun and quick!! I do still find myself reaching for the clutch as I am coming to a stop sign, but the bike shifts down to 1st and never stalls, and you just apply the brakes and stop, zero drama or issues. Is it necessary for me to have DTC, no, but I feel like it's a modern convenience that just grows on you with time, and it's a Honda so it works perfectly!
Btw for low speed DCT rear brake throttling is how you feather the clutch
I often wondered about reliability of the Honda DCT, specifically the clutch. Since there are 2 sets of gears engaged. One with the clutch released propelling the motorcycle and a second set of gears with the clutch depressed for lack of a better explanation. The question was on the drag on the clutch plates and the release mechanism, throwout bearing. It would be interesting to see oil analysis on a DCT to understand the presence of clutch friction material and metals.
There is no throwouut bearing. The DCT works the same as an automatic transmission clutch pack, its a piston driving a clutch pack into compression to transmit drive. When it's released a spring holds the clutch pack disengaged, so no oil pressure, no clutch engagement. Clutch Longevity? Will be similar to a normal automatic, only difference is that these use engine oil rather than atf. Clutch material is the same as all other motorcycle clutch material.
40,000 km on my DCT and no issues at all.
Thank you for the explanation.
Makes me think of brute force ATV.
The centrifugal clutch in downhill you'd either ride the rear brake to engage engine breaking, or throttle it slightly. And again you charge the dynamics.
I've lightened it and got one result, changed springs then weights and guy more changes.
On two wheels this may have problems because on a quad it's got huge tires, on dirt, and torque kinda came on to strong.... lugging over ruts was harder then my friends with a standard shift with auto-clutch
WOW, smart , futuristic & broadminded elders, thanks. I appreciate your support for technology.
Kevin needs a cool bike in the background like Mark's 900 cr / or ss .
I am enjoying your podcast. I think it could be even better to add an occasional third person, an expert on the weeks topic
I ride Africa Twin DCT as I lost my right arm in a motorcycle accident in 1999. I tried Honda's DN-01, Yamaha's FJR-1300AE, Aprilia Mana 850 CVT and the Africa Twin. The AT DCT is by far the best solution. I'll try out the E-clutch too but the DCT is surprisingly good. I even created my own e-clutch for a MT-09 which was a potentiometer for a thumb clutch, servo in the rear seat and cable that runs to the clutch. It works, but the e-clutch looks very promising as its two giant servos in the case and it's hooked up to the ECU. Anyone who clutches their purse saying, "auto bikes are no good" (pun intended) - needs to have a long hard look at themselves. This ex-national superbike rider does not give a rat's arse about what you ride, just ride.
Automatics are great. Its one of the reasons why i ride a scooter now. I would absolutely ride a motorcycle again if more autos were available.
I believe Honda introduced the DCT on the VFR.
The DCT was in their atvs first for years and has been awesome in that platform. IMO it is perfect for motorcycles as well.
Remember the Moto Guzzi Convert, 2 speed automatic with torque converter. Mid 1975. Not a true performance bike but handled pretty good.
Correction: DCT introduced in 2009 on the VFR 1200f. It took me 15 years to warm up to a DCT bike, but now I’m a convert and happy owner of one. It never mis-shifts, never stalls, never wheelies, never burns up clutches and carries momentum better than any human can stroke through the gears. As a bonus, the DCT clutch inspection is called for at 30k miles, with many owners reporting 50 to 60k before requiring replacement of the clutch plates. (Though there are some reports of premature clutch wear on GoldWing DCTs that are used for obstacle courses at slow speeds). Simply put, a DCT makes me a safer and better rider because my focus remains on the roading environment.
I have just one complaint about DCT bikes: Honda stubbornly retains a rear brake pedal under the right foot as opposed to a brake lever under the left hand such as found on mt bikes/scooters. (The exception being the X-ADV 750 which comes with both brakes under both hands). On off-road DCTs, such as the Africa Twin, this traditional braking orientation becomes a safety issue if the rider dismounts on the left side on a steep incline … and the bike begins slipping backwards! In this scenario where the rear brake is out of reach and engine compression braking isn’t possible (DCT hasn’t a parking pawl only a parking brake), the situation is unrecoverable and the rider + bike are likely to be damaged/injured.
Please provide more info on the upcoming e-clutch! Thanks-
Talk to me about the electronics cutting in slamming the gear set, dose this impose a cost to the lifetime of the transmission
Eclutch is only on the cable throttle bikes btw. The Honda 650s are not ride by wire.
I was kinda hoping Mark could finish the Aprilia story but I'll take a Kevin induced sidetrack any day.
There are many times I wish my 600lb ADV bike had an auto but don't want the extra weight and complexity of DCT. The Rekluse-style clutches work fantastic and in a street application, ideal. I would pay for a Factory auto-Clutch without hesitation.
I've had every model Honda equipped with the DCT, and still own my 2010 VFR1200F and a 2017 NC750X. The NC750 is the most seamless installation, with the engine and transmission being superbly matched, and due to the low cg and weight, is the least affected by low speed turning maneuvers (requires adapting on the GW most). I find I rode the Africa Twin and the NC just like a regular clutch equipped bike, simply substituting paddle shifts for foot shifts.
My VFR is Hondas first gen DCT, which seemingly due simply to computer programming, when driving in the auto mode, if you use the paddle shifters, it changes into the manual mode and stays there, so that quick downshift for a corner or passing requires resetting to the auto mode. Which is NOT intuitive or convenient.
BTW, would you fellows be aware of anyone or a business that could reprogram that to the later updated software?
In any case, I love all these transmissions, from the way the GW helps to manage a loaded touring bike, to the amazing feeling of the VFR snicking through the gears almost imperceptibly at full throttle in sport mode - I call it Warp Drive!
Production Note: Mark's off-the-cuff introduction rambled, and his voice varied in volume enough that it was difficult to understand what he said. On the other hand, Kevin spoke very clearly, in sentences, so he was much easier to understand. Kevin is always interesting to read or hear; I wish I had half his knowledge!
Good conversation! Thanks.
Some people are cave men and some people are astronauts and that is ok. Each has their place. This all sums up to ride what you want and allow others to do the same. We don't all have to want the same things to all be happy.
2020 Honda Africa Twin Adevnture Sport DCT. Went DCT and never looked back. It can do anything a manual bike can do of the same catagory/size on and off road.
Mark touched on an important point I hoped one of you would make: the hostility towards automatics/semi-autos is very much related to what happened in the car world. Once automatics became practical and affordable (and eventally faster), fewer people bothered to learn how to drive manuals and many others switched to automatics. The manufacturers naturally moved almost entirely away from manuals, virtually eliminating the choice. That's a significant worry. Is it as likely to happen the same way with motorcycles? Maybe not since motorcycling in the first world is more of a pleasure/lesiure pursuit and is even more influenced by the wants of enthusiasts. But when manufacturers keep talking about making motorcycles "more accessible to more people," you have to wonder a little.
To some of us, manual control of the gears and clutch is a significant part of what makes riding engaging and satisfying, much like the balance aspect Mark also mentioned. I have no issue at all with DCTs/autos/semi-autos. Hell, one of my bikes has an up/down quick shifter with auto-blipper. But I choose not to use it more than I choose to use it. So, that's probably more than enough for me right now.
I don't think anyone really objects to automatic transmissions existing. They might just be a little worried that at some point manuals won't be allowed to exist.
My present bike has an up/down quickshifter, which I use all the time, so the clutch for me is only for starting and stopping. I don't mind this one bit. In fact when I get into slow traffic, and have to feather the clutch, ( no lane splitting in Alberta unforturnately)my hand gets sore after a while and I start wishing that the clutch was automatic. I enjoy the manual transmission but could take or leave the clutch. It makes me wonder if Honda could increase their take rate on the Africa Twin DCT or NT 1100 by moving the manual shift buttons off the handlebar and making the shift selector a traditional lever in the traditional spot. Based purely on my own experience and preferences, I think I'd be perfectly happy with a bike that retained the shift lever but deleted the clutch lever.
The Africa Twin has an optional foot shifter that signals for gear changes electronically.
All products evolve. Recently, some people started to buy modern phones with rotary dial... It is OK to miss "the old times" because of the memories we carry but life goes on and technology evolves. Also, new legislations require manufacturers to adapt. I keep my analog motorcycle but can't deny the advantages and comforts new bikes offer. As I am not getting any younger, the new tech might extend my motorcycle fun a little longer... In a few years, ICEs might not even be available (motorcycles and cars). Let's keep an open mind, folks. Even our kids, who we love so dearly, grow up and the relationship changes. The love doesn't go away and we all adapt. Stay safe and enjoy the rides.
I'd say it depends, of course . For example a commuter with a DCT sounds great, but would it be as great for a sport bike?
Personally I have NC750X as one of my bikes and it's great for city riding, among other things. Smooth, VERY easy to ride exactly when I want to, or need to focus on the surroundings.
Dont forget the Moto Guzzi v1000 convert which was before the hondamatic
I remember when cars by large part were shifting to automatic transmissions and many people balked at this trend.
Balance? The motorcycle does not need anyone to balance it once moving, they will even go down the road without a rider until it crashes. Maneuvering certainly takes a rider...
DCT was introed on the VFR1200F 2010
I think the debut of DCT was the VFR 1200 F.
I've been riding bikes for bikes for 62 years and drove heavy trucks for my entire career . i will always prefer standards to automatics because you have better control .
And the records were scratched and they would skip and skip. And that's the way it was. And in saying that, I do not own a automatic car, truck or motorcycle. And will not. Yes, I am a dying breed. To shift is to live. Like Kevin said " if you DCT, you go Brother, but not for me.
I will say removing those electronics on MotoGP bikes would increase the distances between the first and tenth place rider. Personally I'd prefer the really gifted rider from a excellent rider with better electronics. I watch for to see the rider's talent displayed rather than who has the best software engineer. The next step will be machines racing with no riders.
This is a different discussion from street bike technologies usefulness and safety.
Did the VFR 1200 have a DCT or an FJR-type automatic?
The VFR1200 had a DCT.
right now I have a bike with a good QS with auto blipper and a slipper clutch. For me that's enough. At the end of the day I still want to shift myself.
Mark, I would love to c the print mag come back.
Manual transmission in a car is the best theft deterrent there’s now.
knees don't really work well anymore, dct sure but not without reverse gear, 😎😎
I am old in Motorcycle and Harley, Honda all my life. Part of the religion, then i got me self a DCT, for me is a super joy to have this new Honda tech, ans when am tire of it, i get my dirt bike and clurch ro my hearts content. Have my harley to renew my vaos of a devaut clutcher. I dont care if is DCT is just fine, is nothing more than tech to suit my mood. My only beef with dcr is not able to nutral when costing. Other than that Dual clutch is great.
Imagine if Honda had a design and patent for an electronic clutch that they could add to DCT to give people that slow manoeuvre control, oh wait.
I would by a print copy of CW again. I miss pront
I reckon I'm an orthodox religious gear shifter - I'll stick with the old fashioned clutch. Not a fan of quick shifters, either. After 55 yrs and 800k mi of riding I think I got it down. Interestingly, the young people I have taught to ride didn't have much trouble figuring out how to to sync hands and feet to get things done. I'm no luddite, I like tech that has a need to exist. I have no issue with the tech being available, but...I want less expensive "standard" models available. The price inflation of bikes, driven in large part by all of the nanny tech, is crazy. IMU ABS brakes have a need, and over 100 hp bikes have a need for traction control, but all the other gadgets are a waste on the street.
The DCT idea is great as an alternative to those who do not need a clutch for maximum control. I am surprised Honda is recalling all Goldwings since 2018 due to DCT transmissions blowing up catastrophically w/o warning.
They also have a recall on the gas pumps.
A REAL motorcycle has a three-speed gear, hand-shift and a foot-clutch.😅
Shifting is no different than rowing with a DCT but you motorcyclists should embarrassed anyway because you use crash boxes. Try shifting quickly with syncros and not wearing out the brass over the course of an endurance race. Anything that disturbs the friction circle is sacrilege.
If there is a truth, what be false?
the ignorance over the safety problems associated with lithium batteries is shocking.
the outgassing and high termperature fires constitute a huge threat to public safety,
and anything bigger than a scooter overloads the grid. we have been sold a bill of goods...From Hell.
As the actress said to the bishop- suck it and see, you might just like it 😁 You know, I had to break half way through KC talk to see how a F1 seamless gearbox works.
We don't ride to please or be approved by others, if they don't like automatics then they Own That! Not you, 2 wheels are 2 wheels and should be enjoyed and not dissected ❤😊