What OIL do I use in my MOTORCYCLE?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มี.ค. 2024
- Legendary Technical Editor Kevin Cameron explains motorcycle oils, from crude to synthetic and all the way down to the molecule. Co-host and Editor Mark Hoyer is mostly along for the ride on this one. Listen now as we get into the slippery subject of motorcycle oil.
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Amazing. I could listen to Kevin 24/7. Followed him since the early 80’s magazines. Even better in person, a legend.
came for the subject... stayed for the anecdotes!
Love Kevin’s sense of humor, and similes!
These podcasts are fantastic! This duo is a perfect combo, technically and historically fascinating while being witty and well spoken. Great stuff!
Now I know what I've been missing my whole life. It's this podcast right here.
Kevin’s book on motorcycle racing engines is fantastic. He is such a gem.
Outstanding! Kevin Cameron brought me in like a guest speaker in a college seminar. I didn’t tap FFWD once; listened to every second. I will listen to any further discussion from you two. Thank you
I have been reading Cycle World since 1962 ( first issue Triumph Bonneville, third issue Norton Atlas). It is good to hear you young fellas, ( Hoyer and Cameron ) talking oil and life. I promise to keep riding, if you two promise to keep doing these discussions. Mr. Parkhurst is proud of you two.
I'm liking all the organic chemistry here. Kevin sounds like a chemist - he needs a chalkboard.
Been using Mobil products since before synthetics. I did have a Suzuki Hayabusa that went 70,000 miles without needing valve shims (checked every ~12K and it was within Spec). It ran Mobil 1 MX4RT racing 10w40 the whole time. My ZX-14R has 30K on it.. same thing.. the cool thing? it's not that expensive.. cheaper than Motul, Royal Purple, Amsoil, etc.. I own a motorcycle for about 70K miles, then sell it. Other tried to tell me to use Shell Rotella T6 5w40 (diesel oil). I'm happy with what works.. Just change your oil before it goes black, or when you can feel the transmission feels notchy..use the recommended viscosity... and don't forget the filter... you'll be fine
I bought new a 79 xs1100 special that has been my only road bike,and still running great. I used automobile oil for the first 15,000 miles according to the manual, now use motorcycle oil which quieted it down and even shifts better. The old ride benefiting from New oil technology. Things are going great for the retro bike.
Great video, love the explanations & anecdotes from Kevin, lots of experience there.
Dear Mark and Kevin, it is a pleasure to watch your videos!! I would have loved Kevin to keep going into Group IV, V and the new VI !! greetings from Mexico!! I started reading Cycle World (at the magazine shop, not being able to purchase yet) since 1978. Big fan of you all. When will we have Peter Egan also jump in!!
Oil wedge hydroplaning to keep metal surfaces apart is achievable by running the engine always at red line. Got it. 👍
Love these detailed talks 👍🏻
Great episode. Enlightening and entertaining. Thank you.
Im blowm away how cool these podcasts are, and how interesting stuff! 🎉 And kevin 😎🤘
this is just AMAZING. absolutely AMAZING info here.. i feel like i just took a master-class
I don't want whizz-bang features, I just want a saddle that I can sit on all day ;-) Listening to KC is like listening to Grandpa tell a really great story from the old days. Just love it.
Here's a question, an engine designed for mono grade oil, is it bad to use multi-grade?
Appreciate the content, thanks. Educational.
One thing I wish you had covered is that an oil like Castrol GTX 20-50 that Iranian my Norton Commando is not the same formula because of catalytic converters. I just found Castrol GTX 20-50 Classic which has the high levels of ZDDP needed for my flat tappit Commando. Do not use with cats.
Pet peeve, “W” is not “weight!l
Rant off!
Been a CW reader for longer than I can remember, this podcast is spectacular!
two legends, one yt vid. Thanks!!!
Very informative, thank you.
I love Kevin!
Fantastic podcast!!
On my new vstrom 800de i plan on using moutul 7100 20w50. Its working fine on the oem 10w40 synthetic but after doing a valve set on my old vstrom with the 20w50 at 50'000km mid winter and seeing how much oil was still clining to the cams ect.... i was impressed.
So... please answer the titled question. What oil do you use in your motorcycle then?
How about an episode devoted to anecdotes involving Kenny Roberts? Erv Kanemoto? Kel Carruthers?
These guys are great, been reading CW since the 80s… but that may be the first Vintage Jaguar reference- nice work
Thank you... Love nerding out with Kevin. Wanted to hear about the relationship with the wet clutch and hydroplaning effect
There's not a pumped oil supply to the clutch, and it's continually picking up oil and flinging it off. Nothing happening to form a wedge.
I have had my Sportster for 25 years and 400,000 miles on the original engine and 37 back tires and 17 front ones and 3 belts in 25 years. I have had my Triumph Tr-6 with a hard tail and magneto for 40 years.
That’s awesome 😎 !!!
Your body must be permanently formed to the riding position of that sportster 😂
That's allot of seat time!
I recently switched from Kawasaki Synthetic to Motul V300. So far, so good. I'm going to use it on my next bike
Awesome topic, I use Honda GN4 oil and I'm happy with it. However when I first started riding in the 80s I used regular Castrol oil and that worked good too
Amsoil - Forever in everything I own
I use exclusively Mobile 1 15-50 Syntheric together with ProLong 1 Additive in everything I own from Race Cars, to Supercars to Steet Touring Bikes and my 234hp Ducati Superbikes and have never expereinced an engine or transmission failure, or any significant wear. Before Mobile 1 was on the market 20 years ago I always used 20-50 Penzoil Race Grade Oil or Arco Graphite Oil - remember that? :)
Just as imporant, you need to do a 1st Oil Change & Filter on a new bike or car before 300mi to clean out the manufacturing debris and and any wear particles from initial running. After that initial break-in oil change, I then change oil and filter every 3000 miles in a clean running enviroment. But a a race car or bike, and after hard running, you need to change the oil after every track day. High RPM abuse and heat from a track day will break down the oil viscosity and lubrication properties accordingly. If you have a track car with an oil pressure gauge, you can actually see the engine oil pressure drop 10-20 lbs after a hard day of track running. Time again to change that oil even if it only has 200 miles on it! Hard Driving and Heat breaks down an oil quickly.
I've spoken to race car teams. Like Team Corvette in IMSA racing who are sponsored by Moble 1 and ask what they run. They are supplied special blended Mobile 1 Racing Oil straight rate 50# with lots of Zink in it that adds additional lubricant protectin on metal-to-metal contact. That 50# weight needs to be heated up in the enggine in the pits at high idle or with a heater to thin it up enough, before they can take the car out onto the track and rev the engine a racing speeds. That's why we use a multi-rate oil for street cars and bikes, the 15- and 20-50 lower viscosity lets us drive off with a cold engine. And it is illegal to use Zink additive it a street vehicle as it clogs the catalytic converters. Ducati has a new Shell race oil 20-50 for their Superbikes which adds 4-5 hp at peak rpm, but it has to be changed after every track day.
Never seen Mobile 1 before. Now, I have used Mobil 1 for 30+ years. 😁
Steen C synthetic. Ran this in a YM1 305 Yamaha Cataliina in the early 70's. The model with iron barrels. Yes there was a Yamaha 305 that came with aluminum barrels too. One year i put near 30000 miles on that bike. Pulled the heads and you could see clean aluminum on the tops of the pistons with just a slight dark swirl on them leading to the exhaust port. Steen ran clean. I ran it through the Yama-Lube system. Didn't much like pre-mix on a street bike. I had raised and widened the exhaust ports and smoothed the transfers. Heads were milled a little. Carbs were bored a MM or two as were the mounting spigots on the barrels. Had J&R chambers on it. Man I miss two stroke twins.
I should add prior to using Steen C all the the other 2 stroke oils left carbon on the tops of the pistons. Some worse than others.
Need KC in the thumbnail...almost missed this. TDC rules!
Mobil 1 used to be a PAO, or PolyAlphaOlefin, but today is a group 3 hydrocracked mineral oil. If you want a PAO, you need Motul, Amsoil or Kawasaki synthetic. I use the Amsoil in my 1050 Vstrom. With 25,000 miles on it, I have no clutch basket chudder they are famous for, shifts great up and down, and uses no oil at all. After 3000 miles, is still right on the full line.
Rotella T6 synthetic. Meets all the specs for motorcycles. I've seen many people online say they've taken bikes to 200,000+ miles with zero issues running nothing else. Never seen anyone say they had any trouble associated with it. Can buy it almost anywhere even home improvement stores in the US. $24 a gallon.
07 FJR1300 going on 110k miles on it using T6. I think that’s Yamaha engineering but I change it at 5k miles religiously
Chang it at least twice as often as the manufacturers recommend.
Well , thanks for this , wasn't quite what i was hoping for , but i heard , the right oil for your Velocette is 20/50 . That's good enough for me and my '65 AJS 16 . The hard part is my supplier can no longer get any Castro oil in any weight .
Heavy Oil Tar .. is used to make asphalt. Heavy Fuel Biler Fuel used in ships is so thick that it has to be Preheated before it can be injected into a ship engine. It is very High in Supplier. One Container ship pollutes as much as 50 Million modern small cars in the USA
Well, not quite everyone buys a new bike every two years. I kept my Kawasaki Voyager XII for 17 years and my current BMW K1200LT is. now 17 years old with 107,000 miles and still going strong. My KLR650 is the youngster at only 7 years of age.
Regarding "Manufacturer recommendations" and the "Owner manuel" as the "Bible" - It's true but only to some extent.
Manufacturers selecting the oil brand recommendation not necessary because it's the best but simply because this specific oil brand got their supplier contract. It doesn't have to be the best, It simply has to be "good enough" while also being cheap (or attractive enough).
Viscosity is also a "good enough" starting point, but it doesn't mean that it's the best. Some Manufacturers don't even recommend specific Viscosity but gives a table of options in relation to ambient temperature.
Don't you guys work in the same Office? And what's with the Cyberman Ear phones?
Good to see CycleWorld on its way back.
Those are pistons.
Still riding my 1985 Honda vf750f interceptor!
My daily driver a 1980s Royal enfield uses any old shyte I can find and gets an oil change when I feel like it takes all of 1.5 litres and is still going strong I hear "snake oil" works well in modern bikes
The mfg recommended oil there I saved you time
I was laughing with a technical oil video!
Thanks for making my day after chemo a little easier.
These days I just buy my oil and oil filter at the dealership based on the manufacturer's recommendation.
One question, how come the 701 used to say use Bel-Ray and now it says to use Motorex?
Simple endorsement deal between the manufacturer and the oil company. Here in europe all brands of the Pierer Mobility Group recommend the use of Motorex oils but, for the 2024 MOTOGP season, KTM has a Mobil sponsorship while GasGas is sponsored by ELF 🤷🏻♂️
In a Motorcycle it costs less to change the Oil than the Oil sample costs.. My Local Power Sports dealer raised the price for a Fram Filter for my Buell or a Kawasaki Mule from $8.00 to $12.00 I searched the Part # and Walmart sells the same part# Fram filter for $4.11 I used to buy Aftermarket Filters for my Yamaha for $4.50 the same filter fits my snowmobile that uses a Genesis Motor based on the R-1
Couldn't find a viscosity/T chart in a Honda manual. Someone on a forum from Florida used a viscosity higher than the only viscosity recommended in the manual. In extreme conditions, would oil pressure be an indicator?
Can you ask Kevin to do a video on how he went about the process of getting an H1R back in the day in any factory support and just elaborate more. I've always wanted to find an old h2r or make an h2r replica. The best thing I have is a set of factory denco racing carburetors.
Yamaha Specs Lower Grade oils that are available in Remote areas in Third World Countries. I have always read that gasoline savings motor oils can make your wet clutch slip. My FZ-07, Yamaha says change the Oil every 4,500 miles and filter every 9,000 miles.. I went 6,300 miles on a Trip .. The Oil had Broken down and lost Viscosity. The Problem is my Fan does not kick in until 221F .. I need to flash my ECM get the engine temp down .
will the VVT cam be different with diff oil ? timing advanced shift ? light/heavy oil/
The best oil to use is CLEAN oil. Clean Walmart oil is better than dirty high quality oils. Moral of story: Change the oil more frequently….if it looks dirty, change it regardless of how long or how many miles.
My buddy who owns a klr 650 runs walmart oil and changes it every 1,000 miles
That’s hilarious. Looking dirty isn’t even close to a good criterion for when to change oil. Good oil gets dirty fairly quickly. Poor oil will look clean for a long time. You better spend some time watching Lake Speed, Jr. The Motor Oil Geek.
@@frederickking1660This is fine if he rides only 1,000 miles a year.
@@LTVoyager I’ve been racing everything I could get my hands on wheels for over 30 years and my personal experience and the experiences of those close to me says your wrong. You keep doing what you’re doing and I’m going to continue to do things they way they should be done. Good day to you sir. 😎
@@dahjo13 Hard to argue with emotion. I prefer to work from data. Have a great day and the oil companies love you! 😁
Cost is a big concern and I own and prefer air cooled bikes. I have been using 15W-40 diesel truck oil mixed 6oz per quart with Marvel Mystery Oil since the 1980's instead of expensive motorcycle specific oil. I have yet to have a lubrication problem. In fact I sold my 94 Suzuki GS 500 at about 45k miles and it didn't smoke. When I bought it at 13k miles it did. My 09 Honda CRF 230L has never seen anything but my MMO mixture since its first oil change. At 18k miles it sounds like the day I bought it and the bike has required zero maintenance beyond oil brakes tires and air filters. There is no oil filter!
I think another video on bearing types in engines would be interesting. Such as why dirtbikes/singles use roller bearings and none seem to use journal bearings? Journal bearing sensitivity to momentary oil pressure loss could be a factor with normal oil pump offroad, but couldn't you use journal bearings with drysump system? Many dirtbike engine failures I read about online seem to be from roller bearing failures, they don't seem to last super long like journal bearings. I know it's cheaper to use roller bearings, and you don't see car engines using them...
Roller brgs r definitely more expensive to use
Great... questions what is motorcycle engine oil ?? I am asking about air-cooled dry clutch motorcycles BMW Ducati etc. I don't need/want any JASO standard in it. Why pay for something you don't need and you don't have what you need (good ZDDP , flash point, NOACK) Thanks!!
True, but our dry clutch bikes are the exception.
I use shell rotella t4 15 w 40 in my Suzuki
Absolutely love hearing you guys share your knowledge. It is a rare talent and we are losing so much from the old days. Sad to say I used to consume every Moto mag until all the old experienced smart guys began to fade away. No interest in young guys who know nothing & have no pizazz or heart & soul in the MC space. I’ve become the old guy now myself. I really miss so many previous valuable contributors of the old days. Please keep this up and train or apprentice people to carry on every chance you get. God be with you. Gary / a motorcycle enthusiast of 66 years & counting. God bless you~
You might want to watch PROJECT FARM, where he does an exhaustive test of engine oils.
Comparing OEM oils against independent oil manufacturers.
I changed the oil in my Harley with Harley Branded Syn3. I brought the old oil to my local auto parts store. They now ask if the oil is petroleum based. My first thought was, “isn’t all motor oil petroleum based”? Apparently it is not. What is the definition of petroleum oils vs the motor oils in our vehicles?
Good stuff! Been reading Kevin Cameron (and Gordon Jennings, et al.) since the 70's and 80's. Including back when I was in my English bike phase with a Triumph 200 Mountain Cub, a BSA 441 Victor and two Norton 850 Commando MkII. I'm still riding and wrenching and learning. Now have 650 Kawasaki, an old Beemer police bike and a KTM LC8 supermoto. Had a dream about riding a new KTM 890 Duke last night. Wheeeeeeeeelies! Thanks for this great info. Some of it I knew but most of it was new info. Excellent! Love the *"Love Potion #9"* reference that Kevin made.
th-cam.com/video/36WVirpAieM/w-d-xo.html
Love you guys, never stop!
Use inexpensive Shell Rotella T6 Full Synthetic and change oil more often. It meets Jaso MA/MA2.
*only 5w-40 and 15w-40 weights
I too use T6, in all my bikes.
oh no, a video oil thread
can you use pure castor oil in a 2 stroke injection system? and can you mix petroleum oil with castor oil?
Oil Anylasis Companies don't tell you to look for what is about to go wrong with your engine. They tell you what is in the oil.. It it is very high in Iron ect .. that means the cylinder walls are wearing excessivly .. If the oil is high in Copper and Lead.. it tells you the bearings are wearing excessivly .. If it is high in Silicone.. it makes you air clearer is not working and dust is getting sucked into your engine..
If there is Anti Freez in the Oil it means you have a bad head gasket ect.. High in Carbon .. running dirty or burning oil .. If you have fuel dilution it means it's running too rich .. has a bad injector and a bad spark Plug ect..
What is the answer for those out there that want to put T6 diesel oil in their motorcycle?
I put the super slippery oil in my machine....
That’s the good stuff!
So the Kawasaki H-1 has a weak undersized fist gear? Otherwise ATF would be a great choice..
I think break in first thousand miles or so use conventional, have heard this wears the rings in better. I used Rotella 15w40 T4 conventional. Soon I will switch to Rotella 5w40 T6 "synthetic" to see if there is a difference, then Amsoil. I have seen tests of Amsoil and it seems to me the best oil you can buy, flow-wise per viscosity rating and wear-wise. Makes sense to me to use the best oil you can afford, Amsoil online is probably comparable price to other brands from retail stores.
Redline has a high percentage of polyol Ester which the most temperature resistant base oil and very little viscosity index improver... because the base stock are made very close to the weight on the bottle...with MA rating too.
Hard to beat Shell Rotella T4 no matter how much you want to spend. Especially if you believe clean oil is better than expensive oil.
100,000 miles on my super tenere, all on Rotella T4. I still get out exactly every drop put in at oil changes. No missed shifts, original clutch. cost for oil & filter is $20
No, that makes no sense at all for most people. Most modern engines will easily run 200,000 miles on a good conventional (aka Dino) oil. Most motorcycles will never see 50,000 miles, let alone 200,000. Wasting money on an expensive oil that adds zero life to the motorcycle is not smart at all. The other advantages of synthetics are pourability when very cold and protection from extreme heat. Again, few motorcycles are started at temps below 0º F or have a turbocharger that creates enough heat to warrant a synthetic oil (riding at even 120º F temps won’t heat the oil anywhere near to what a turbo will).
I run conventional Castrol motorcycle oil in my BMW K1200LT and it just turned over 107,000 miles. I am unlikely to get it to 200,000 miles and it is running strong at 107,000 and my last valve check at around 80,000 miles showed the cam and buckets to be in great shape. Absolutely no need to waste money on synthetic oils in a motorcycle unless you plan to ride in the arctic, run a turbocharged racing engine or run 10,000 mile oil change intervals.
Most "oil problems" are in fact metallurgical problems. The finest oil will not save cheesy metal, and first class metallurgy is not at all fussy about the oil.
There are as many options as there are motorcycles. Bottom line use the MFG's recommendations. I had great luck with Rotella in a Goldwing it ran like a clock. Sold it with 85k next owner did the same for 100k and sold it.
Have used Mobil 1 in the crank of the five Harleys I've own no issues. But only dino in primary and gear box. No issues. Have been told by a Harley tech the Synthetic foams in primary and you can loose lubrication to gears.
Mobil supplies the base oil to Amsoil which has a great additive package.
My opinion will be change your oil like Democrats vote Early and often. With good oil that is compatible with the MGF. Recommend lubrication
I have to laugh when I read owners saying that they think that a thicker oil than the one specified will be better, as if they know more than the manufacturer.
I guess that I'm an outlier in that I tend to keep my bikes and cars longer than most, so I do change oil frequently for my benefit. I'm also not a fan of all the tech that new bikes have on board. There's more to fail at a greater expense while ruining a good ride. EFI and electric start are great, but mfgs. can keep all the "whiz-bang" distractions. Like new cars today...which button makes the waffles?
dino vs synthetic - only for break in with Dino-- but many use Dino all the time better than synthetic in ways ? valves less more abuse ?
Dino is only better in being less expensive. Synthetics are better in every performance metric of which I am aware. Having said that, I use dino oil in my BMW. Why, you might ask if synthetic is better? Well, because the ways that synthetic is better (low temps, very high temps, extended drain intervals, etc.) simply aren’t relevant to my motorcycle. I rarely ride below freezing. I rarely ride above 100º F. I change my oil every 5-6,000 miles, not 10,000 or more. So, I simply don’t need the advantages of synthetic, but I can use the cost saving of conventional oil to buy more gas to ride more. 😁. It is an easy decision for me. And my BMW now has 107,000 miles on Castrol conventional 4T oil and is still going strong.
@@LTVoyager thanks for reply I use Dino for first few 1000s miles then I mix it with Synthetic 50% get best both worlds ! cheers I always too start bike warm for 1 min then drive off like normal helps too . Oil moves around !
@@douglasgrosch228 Yes, many recommend conventional for break-in, but even that isn’t much of a factor with modern engines. Many come from the factory now with synthetic in the engine. I should have added in my first post that I do use synthetic in my car and truck. The reasons being that both run in below zero temps in the winter, the truck gets used hard plowing snow and the car is turbocharged. Synthetic oils add value in these conditions so I use them, they just don’t add value for most motorcycles.
T6
Maxima Synthetic or Motul.
In the end you have t o "believe someones test and or experiences rite? Tests by a chemical engineer ,hydrodynamic engineer, and life long racer and race engine builder ;> see Rat 540 tests< and "Film Strength" L O N G read and pretty conclusive testing.imo.
OMG........Isn't this the "third rail " of motorcycling ?
I was done by 6 minutes in.
OEM only care to get you past warranty. Oil testing? Yeah, maybe, but if true, why don't oils formulas change with every new model?
The comment about Mobil 1 still being PAO is where I dropped off. It isn't, it's mostly GRP III. It's good, no doubt, but you do not need PAO to have a decent lubricant.
Go by specs. If it meets the spec, it will do the job, regardless of composition.
Synthetics shine under harsh conditions, temp extremes, or long intervals. Conventional should be changed a bit earlier, and fit the needs of the majority of street bikes.
KC has fogot more than most people will ever know about bikes, cycle world subscriptions since the mid-seventies....
I follow the manufacturers recommendations. Period. Not only the oil but also the mileage change outs too. The days of 1000 mile change out are over. Also, department store $ 0.99 cent per quart days are gone. $25K for a bike and people complain about $ 10 per quart.... really...... Ride it, change the oil with what is recommended and when recommended. Get over it.......
The rest is all marketing...... NOW, lets talk 2 smoke oils....
How about a manual in USA vs. manual for same bike in EU - Manual in USA having oil changes twice as often. Makes a lot of sense
Why do Mark Hoyer keep screwing up Kevin Cameron's show? Of course, good questions in the right places are necessary, but now your contribution was worthless, even negative.
Who cares, what oil you use?
Motul