So grateful to live in an era where such wisdom is available, easy to find and free. Thank you to both for this series and all the continuous support for Kevin's column at Cycle World.
I'm an Engineer but what I tell people on adjusting chains is to get the countershaft, swingarm pivot, and back axle in a line...then do that in spots around the chains circulation because they have or will develop tight and loose spots. Make the tightest spot really snug but without preload tension there. The geometry is called a toggle mechanism. Used in rock crushers to generate giga force axially going over center. Also I say to lube inside the chain so it might centrifuge into the chain versus flinging off after lubing on the outside. Then bend the straw with a lighter about 70 degrees, blowing through it while molten, and lube the link plate abutments both sides instead of just generally hosing it willy nilly and mostly in the middle. And that's all I know about that. My gift is free advice. And oh yeah I'm a farmer too.
Well put! …at least the alignment of the countershaft, swingarm pivot and rear axle. Also correct on applying lube to the inside of the chain, so as to lube the rollers as much as possible. However, with the advent of the “o-ring” chain, there is really not much need to apply much more oil than that… because the lube will never get where it needs to go. Thnx
@@jeffcraft3980 I would think spraying the grit off an o - ring chain with silicone spray from the inside to the outside would do. I saw someone who commented that they did only this regualrly and got insane chain life mileages. But he was a commuter and a tourer, not a racer.
These Kevin Cameron podcasts are even better than my Cycle World subscription 40 years ago. You can only pack so much information into a magazine article.
A tip that my dad gave me back in the sixties, and it's still true today, is that when adjusting the chain tension on a chain driven bike, the sprockets are never perfectly round, so, as the wheel and sprockets rotate, the chain will alternately go tight, then slack, as the chain passes over the high and low parts of the sprockets. So, before adjusting the tension, first rotate the wheel by hand, and position it to the point where the chain is tightest, then adjust it. I often hear this phenomenon when a chain driven bike passes by, the chain makes a wow wow wow sound as the chain goes tight and slack during it's rotation.
@@Grampadude Yamaha continues doing the same thing with the Tracer 9....I think the spec is only right for a brand new chain because it is gonna stretch....once stretched the chain will be TOO TIGHT and i imagine NO mechanic follows the spec in the manual except perhaps for new chain brand new motorcycle....no your chain should not be like a guitar string....
When I was a kid riding my TM 125 all the way to road racing In my twenties, Kevin Cameron made me smarter and a better Motorcycle enthusiast. What a great gift it is to have him here talking,.
If a chain gives out good chance you can get her back on the road in hours if you can find sprockets and chain or at least a chain...if a shaft self destructs (and they DO) you might be stuck for WEEKS somewhere....just saying ....and even a thrown chain the cracks cases good chance can be welded or epoxied.
@@dougiequick1Quite right. Also, a modern chain needs very little attention, and is highly unlikely to just let go without warning. Even in deepest Siberia you'll be able to find a chain to fit your modern bike.
Who knew a conversation about final drives could be enthralling? 😂 Kevin Cameron is truly a National Treasure! #motorcyclesdontscareme #coldchewinggum #bestforwhom
Gentlemen, I was very hurt when Kevin Cameron mentioned 😢 John Wittner had passed.😢. What a great man! I helped pick up his bike when he crashed at Road Atlanta in about 1983 but touching me was that he rode a Suzuki and purchased our Cogent Dynamics suspension for his motorcycle. He was very pleased with that and he called me a couple times and once he asked if HE asked little me if HE could call to talk more if I had time. I loved the man, so intelligent and interesting. I feel a little robbed and partly because of my not reaching out more to absorb hit experience but more so his wonderful spirit. God Speed DR. John and thank you for your kindness such a fantastic man. We have lost a treasure. I doubt this will be read in your podcasts but know, you two share much of this spirit from what I have read and heard.
Great stuff! Over the past 50+ years l have owned all 3. Back when I thought I was a "racer " a chain was the only way to go. Then I bought a Guzzi Lemans I loved the shaft though it did have a maintenance schedule requiring some work. Now that I am older and not concerned about the maximum acceleration or need to change ratios my Buell and most recently Harley-Davidson belts have proven to be my personal favorite. Keep the good stuff coming. Kevin has always been able to spike my interest in the engineering side of things by keeping it understandable to us lazy brains! And I do miss Gordon Jennings. Should have kept that 2 Stroke Tuners Manual I bought in 1973.
This is the best motorcycle enthusiast publication since Mr Parkhurst. It is such a happy and wonderful thing that you are doing ! Nobody else now does this level of motorcycle knowledge transfer. It is so good. Please continue. We need to round up 1M subscribers for you.
I have not owned a belt drive bike, but hear the Harley guys like them. I have owned several chain bikes and several shaft drive bikes. Shaft drive is hands down my favorite. The chain purists will complain shaft design eats horsepower, but the minimal maintenance to horsepower loss is well worth it !
The fact is you get oodles of horsepower these days that you can afford to sacrifice a couple of percent. You still get amazing power and performance from them and they are pretty much worry free.
I am trying running my o-ring chain dry. A fellow KLR 650 owner ran a chain dry and cleaned it periodically with just WD-40 and got something like 38,000 miles on a chain and sprocket set. The theory being that the dry, clean chain wore more slowly than a lubed chain with a grinding compound of dirt in the lube. I only have 6,000 miles, but so far only one chain adjustment since new.
Hey, in these comments, the first one with 3 replies, a guy mentions chain maintenance of an o ring chain, just with a good cleaning regime using silicon spray. I changed to shaft drive after a chain let go on me years ago, got lucky, no injury, minimal bike damage, still ridable.
That brings back some memories of when I was about 10 years old, watching the old man with the motorcycle chain in the kitchen on the hotplate. Duckham's graphite in a big tin, it melted and the chain was dropped in. Then he would take it out the back and hang the chain over the pan to drain it back in for re-use.
I just love these conversations. As an aside velocette made an experimental constantly variable transmission using a humble 350 Mac engine which at best produced approx 16 hp and the thing bent the frame and distorted the chassis due to the torque multiplying effect.Transmissions and torque effects reactions are a whole huge book of calculations on their own .thanks again for these insights .👍
I’m guessing you’re a Hardely Ableson guy. At least now… at this point in your life. Just curious… wonder why there are no performance bikes using belt drive…?
Another great podcast. thank you very much. How about doing a podcast with Peter Egan from time to time? After all, he was the main reason for my 20+ years subscriptions to Cycle World and Road & Track...
@@macmclemore I was riding 400 to 800 miles per day. Top spec chain and yes I know how to lube a chain. If you’ve ever ridden further than your local coffee shop you would know you cut down any chance of something going wrong. I wore out a set of ST tires on that trip as well. Wrong tires?
Thanks for such an in-depth series. On the subject of enclosed chain drives, 30,000 mile service life on the enclosed chain on my yamaha xv1000 tr1. A pain to change, runs a litre of ep2 grease which along with the absence of dirt is the secret to the extended life. Great for dirt roads.
I am not sure about USA but in UK 60's (I think) we used to buy a large round flat tin of "Linklife" that the chain was "simmered" in on the hot plate of the stove (after cleaning) and was way better than anything previously but not according to mum!
Thanks for reading Mr. Gregory's remarks about working with T.C. Christenson at Sunset Motors in Kenosha Wisconsin. The distance between his shop and Harley-Davidson is about fifty miles. There must have been fierce week end battles at local drag strips back in the day when each was developing their drag bikes. Very insightful of you to mention motorcycles, Bimota comes to mind, that had the centerline of the output sprocket concentric with the swing arm pivot. I recall the ATK A-Trak that was another attempt at a solution of chain geometry affecting handling. Thanks again for another thought provoking, insightful Podcast.
In the eighties I did a motor swap, XT500 motor into PE250 frame. The motor sprocket was a long way forward from the swingarm pivot and it had 13 inches of travel so a lot of reaction from the chain on the rear suspension. I made a ball bearing supported sprocket and held the chain down to just off the swingarm pivot. The suspension then worked properly right through it's travel including over harsh ground.
Kenny Roberts is a smart guy he helped to Develop the Lectron Carburetor and built his own Two Stroke Race Bikes called the Proton. They had some Electronics and Fuel Injection . When the AMA allowed 1,000 CC Fourt Strokes to compete with 500 CC Two Strokes, it put and End to KR's Protons and the Bikes that Eric Buell was building ..
This podcast is great! I have always admired Kevin’s works, and have read his materials since forever it seems. Having just discovered this channel recently, I’m very impressed, plus I can hear Kevin’s voice!!! 👍😊🏍️
Im an engineer setting chain tension almost an art-form, amazing how many motorcyclists dont know about tight spots. Setting the belt tension on a Zero has taken it to the next level (Ive broken 2 on the SRF following manufacturers instructions and the click tension tester) its about alignment more than tension.
Amazing how many motorcyclists actually couldn’t care less about their chain. I haven’t been riding for a really long time, about 7 years, yet I’ve so many horror shows on wheels. I own a Zero, an FXE, and haven’t yet adjusted the belt tension. Apart from the alignment, what tip would you give ? Would you use a laser to check the alignment like on a chain driven bike ?
Me too. But I’ve never in all of my decades of riding and racing motorcycles have I ever set or checked chain tension. Unless you were talking about a cam chain. I have set belt tension on Harleys but all of the chains I have dealt with I have checked and adjusted chain slack.
@@davidleonard8369 yep chain slack is a better way of describing chain setting, your looking to back off any tension at the tight spot to ensure you have optimal slack
Reading old articles about the 80’s SUZUKI GS850, they talk about the shaft drive NOT climbing and diving due to some magic, can’t remember just what now.
Speaking of the R90S based superbike - I suppose you know of Helmut Dähne, former racer and longtime Metzeler developer. I recall an interview with him in the early 1970s, where he said that on his race BMWs, he softened the already unusually soft suspension. Supposedly for better grip. It must also have demanded a very smooth, and particular riding style in order to have enough cornering clearance and stability to win races. There is a video of him circulating Nürnburgring on TH-cam at a very fast pace on his RC30, yet it looks very smooth and in control.
If I understood correctly, at around 29:20 it's said that if the counter shaft is concentric with the swing arm pivot the bike won't turn. The only thing that comes to mind is that it's not them being concentric that's the issue but that the swing arm is so short. If that's not it, please explain.
Enclosed chains bathed in oil? The British bikes did it back when a motorcycle was considered a reasonable form of primary transportation. And yes, they lasted a very long time and kept Gentlemen's clothes unblemished!
Only the Harley Fxrt and FLT models had the enclosed final drive chain in 30 wt motor oil and only for the 1982-1984 model years. They are a pain in the rear to change the tire and can seep oil. The chains and sprockets last forever. My original rear sprocket has 110k+ miles on it and it shows very little wear. The non o-ring basic chains are good for 35k. They run cool and clean plus you can’t hear them. I have had two of these bikes and have had my current one 12 years. Dealers used to charge 6 hours to change the rear tire. That’s probably why it was discontinued.
@@onelooperhudson967 When I had my bike shop I changed the rear tire on one of those FLT's once, after that I told customers that they'd have to bring in the rear wheel only because I don't have all day to reprove and replace a rear wheel. Those enclosed chains absolutely do last forever just like and for the same reason the primary chains do, because they don't get all that real fine road grime that's being whipped up off the road surface at highway speed all over them. Harley had an enclosed rear drive even before that, back in the Panhead days there was an option that fully enclosed the rear drive that was a stamped tin cover like the primary covers from back in those days.
Very entertaining and enlightening. Love the topic and the very in-depth knowledge you guys share. You missed out the performance/power tradeoffs of different drive styles (and efficiency). Maybe another topic could be engine efficiencies and the best coupling of engine power to final wheel. I’m sure this would open up a lot of discussion points and be very interesting.
I have a Hardley Ableson, which is always in the shop, it's been there longer than I've owned it at this point, but the best thing about it is the belt drive. You just ride, get off, shrug, go inside, ride again. Through any weather. We'll it's in the shop again, hopefully for the last time; I couldn't go another summer with nothing, picked up a new SV650, absolutely love it...but.... chain maintenance.. every few days... I enjoy it now, sit there listen to a podcast, it's relaxing. But the chemicals and the mess...
Every few days? Modern chains need cleaning and adjusting a few times a season. Use chain spray wax. It does the job, does not attract dirt and leaves no mess.
These videos are really interesting. I’m glad TH-cam somehow figured out that I’d like this content. New found appreciation for Cycle World magazine 🙂👍 And, in my opinion a proper motorcycle has a chain drive and spoked wheels 🙂
I’m pretty sure Kev has covered this subject as well. Chain and cog belt are quite close and both are vastly more efficient that shaft. Most of this has to do with all the 90 degree direction changes needed to drive a motorcycle with shat drive.
I had a Moped with variable belt primary drive in 1965 . Only one pulley changed ratio . The engin was hanging from a top pivot pulled back by the belt and pulley, pulled forward by a large torsion spring . When the variable pulley squeezed together to increase its diameter to raise the final drive ratio the engine swung backward.
Just a shame that E. J. Potter and Boris Murray have passed on. Having produced two of the most famous drag racing pics of all time. A few stories there. As to internal combustion geometry, this channel www.youtube.com/@d4a is quite good. As to chains, the Yamaha XV920RJ with its enclosed, "grease bath" chain was nice. Sadly, the drive lasted longer than the rest of the bike. Ahhh...Diamond Chain. Rode 15K miles around the US on my '74 TX650A and a single Diamond 530 XDL chain. Ran the two cylinder head breather hoses through the top. of the drive sprocket guard so that a mist/drip kept the chain oiled "juuuust right."
In one of my classes in mechanical engineering technology years ago, we were told all chains were designed to be run in an oil bath only. Which jives nicely with my experience of failures and rapid wear on my motorcycles. Many of the smaller bikes had enclosed chain guards, which should have been a good idea, but in the abusive hands of young riders, were more a pain in the butt, and were often just removed.
No doubt today's modern chains, ie, motgp, Superbikes, etc, the quality and longevity is far superior to 20, 30, 40 years ago. However, cars and trucks gave up chains 100+? years ago.... With minimal hp loss, and ease of drive gear change would be my only reason to use a chain again. I'll stick with my diff drive, or go to a belt if l get a Harley.
This was an issue 40 years ago. Modern sealed chains and wax treatment mean little adjustment required and a 20,000 mile or more life. For a few hundred dollars you then get a completely new drivetrain.
I get over 100,000+ miles out of a belt drive. The shaft drive outlast the bike it's attached to. Chains are for race bikes and dirt bikes and vintage British motorcycles. Bikes should be shaft drive or belt drive. In the 1980's Kawasaki would have chain driven,shaft drive,or belt drive versions of the same bike so you had a choice of final drive. I miss those days.
How about deliberately touching the rear brake into and out of turns_this can help stabilize the height and keep the wheels on the ground. I picked that up riding a friend's R75, before anyone told me about trail braking.
Chains are great but messy which I dont care for ... Love the belt drive , had it on small Kawasaki street bike and it was quiet and long lasting ... Shaft drive has its quirks , but hondas design on the goldwing made it really good with the counter rotating drive train that eliminated alot of the quirkyness ... I like it best ....
When i was desert racing in the southwest in the mid '70s large countershaft sprokets with large rear sprokets was the thing to do ..with large sprokets your chain does not have to flex as much to follow around the sproket making less friction and heat
I listen with a pad and paper because, "The center of mass" is always shifting due to my insatiable need for "The Stuff"! My "journey away from helplessness" just began March of this year. And this is the beauty of the algorithm. I get Joe Shmow and I get you. But I subscribe to you 🔔. SKWID Rider’s Shipmate ET1(SS/SW/MTS) US Navy, Ret. Killmonger: 2020 Fat Boy (Stage II+ by Blockhead) SilverBAK: 2021 Road Glide (S&S 129ci/Fueling Race Kit by the Rider’s Shipmate)
Sitting here in Asia, appreciating the wisdom shared on your podcasts. I really miss the simplicity of my RD 250,s 350,s and 400 . Oh those were the days. KTM have a two stroke trail bike that can be registered for the road. What's stopping them from making a two stroke road bike with today's technology ?
Application and preference are key, but longevity and ease of daily use is very important. I really like shaft drives, but as a H-D rider for some time now the belt is very dependable.
Kevin it's me the filthy hippie who used to pester you at Arlington Motorsports. I'll jog your memory Kawi H1 and an ATK Anti Tension Kettenantreib and I was going to rule the track!
Been watching this podcast a lot lately. Very impressive! Gotta say though, sometimes the elephant in the room is either not addressed, or marginalized. Just two quick examples. The podcast I listened to recently that was devoted to the incredible history of Ducati’s racing success. While it was accurate in every detail,(as far as I could tell),I didn’t catch any mention of the fact that every time Ducati’s twins were unable to compete with the four cylinder Japanese bikes, the rules were changed in one way or another, to allow the Italians to, not only compete, but to dominate. In a similar fashion, the episode concerning the rise in popularity of the parallel twin engines, while not ignoring the issue of cost, seemed to minimize that concern, while extolling the virtues of that engine type. I suspect that, cost not being a concern, the four cylinder’s and the sport bikes that enjoyed huge sales numbers 15 years ago, would be every bit as popular today as they were then. Just some thoughts from a 63 year old, still riding a current generation GSXR 750.
I have a 1981 Suzuki GS650E and recently I had to change the shifter seal and I had to takeoff the chain cover while I was in there I also changed the 15 tooth sprocket to a 16 tooth sprocket, I was surprised to see that inside of that cover there was a layer of insulation against the cover that looked like it was made out of fiberglass or something like that and it must be for noise suppression and I was just surprised to see that.The bike works much better with the 16 tooth sprocket.The shifter seal must’ve been there for 40 years I drove a screw into it and grabbed the screw with vicegrips and then had to use the prybar to get it to let go. Do you guys know if anybody makes 65 mm forged pistons for a Suzuki GS650E? Thanks for the great videos.
No "Bull" this time, just an admiration for the modern motorcycle chain. My 2003 Kawasaki ZR7s has 180,000 km on the OEM EK chain, and there's much more left in it. In a riding season, I usually cover about 20,000 km, and might make one adjustment of well less than than 360° on the drawbolt's nuts. I do oil the chain as the rollers on sprocket teeth need lubrication as do all rolling element bearings. Much better than my first bike, 1967 Triumph TR6R, with a short lived Renold.
Welcome to the internet comments section. There are two types of comments: senior citizens who amplify slight inconvenience based on 50 year old anecdotes; and people who have never ridden a bike.
Any idea why BMW moved away from belt drive? I love it and wished they kept it. I hate chain drive for a variety of reasons and don't want to get a big 1200cc bike to get into shaft drive. I was hoping you were going to answer this.
Since the early 2000s, BMWs have been a masterclass of designed failure points to keep parts counters and service bays busier. The adoption of plastic parts with set heat duty cycles is just villainous.
Chain cases were once common, early Japanese and eastern European manufacturers. I had a CA95 Dream, and its 428 chain lasted the entire time I owned it. Oil bath chain case, not fashionable but practical. I later had a 73 Z1, its giant 630 chain lasted 6k miles even with the messy automatic oiler. Now a days o-ring chains last 12~15k miles (Honda 919 and Super Duke) without the mess. Belt drives don't like dirt/gravel roads, I do. I also had a Yamaha XS11 with a Blake turbo kit, the shaft drive effect on the suspension was extreme. Taught me to be smooth with the throttle and rear brake but there were moments of wheel hop that probably looked funny. But I wasn't amused.
"Rio Hondo" in México they told me it means deep river. Additionally it means an intellectual deep dive. It is always, "great to learn". SKWID ET1(SS/SW/MTS) US Navy, Ret.
Very interesting. So if they could mount the engine on the rear swing arm (Or Part of the Wheel itself) you would have zero squat or lift. Didn't the old V8 Vega have a heavy steel structure to connect the rear differential and rear of the transmission to halfway solve similar issues? Two other Question of similar catagory: 1. Why doesn't a Honda Gold Wing tend to lean when you accelerate? Massive torque race boats require trim tabs.. what's the difference? 2. Steering Geometry: Why does applying brake with a slipping clutch during slow speed maneuvers tend to lift or "UnLean" the bike?
I dub this episode: "Factors to consider when applying Big Power thru Sprockets". I love a TZ750 or TR6 sidebar as much as the next guy, but can we get to the title question at some point? 45 mins in and we're still down the swingarm pivot point rabbit hole..
So, if you upgrade your front and rear sprocket to slightly larger sizes and put appropriate chain length, how do you measure the proper slack? Would it be the same as a stock chain or how would you determine proper slack?
The chain would need to be checked by compressing rear suspension to see if it gets too tight at any point in suspension travel, it's better to be on loose side, to much tension can cause chain breakage or damage engine case or bearing damage or wear on rear wheel or countershaft
Question: Will retaining a 530 chain on a 1k cc sportbike extend it's service life, or would a 520 conversion last [nearly] equally as long? Will the reduction in rotating mass be felt at the throttle?
Do the road race bikes keep the 530 chain when they race, with 200 plus hp bikes they might need to stay with 530 chain, it would be easy to see by looking pictures of race bikes
You can see the squat and lift forces by doing the following: while sitting still, apply the rear brake and slight throttle and patially let out the clutch... the rear end will squat. Now put the front wheel against a wall and apply small throttle (do not apply the rear brake) and the rear end will rise. With a high torque dirt bike especially an old 500 2 stroke, the rear suspension would become useless due to too much squat
I made all the vibration in my GS 500 disappear by increasing the front sprocket from 15 teeth to 16. And a seat padded with semi viscous polymer padding. So comfy after that.
A Scottoiler will dramatically increase the life of your chain, maybe beyond the life of an unlucky shaft. Even better, is the super simple TuToRo oiler. One can expect a chain life of over 40k miles. I hear that BMW have started that the service life of the 1300 GS's shaft is just 80km (50k miles).
I don't think I agree on the max instantaneous piston speed being attained when the con rod centerline is at 90⁰ to the crank throw. Very close, but if you want to split hairs, and apparently we do, the angular misalignment of the bore and the con rod centerline causes max speed to occur just after the 90⁰ point. (On the down stroke) The piston is not traveling in the same direction as the rod big end, and that matters. Lengthening the rod reduces this effect, but it is never gone. No, I'm not going to try to figure out exactly where that point is, but it is determined by stroke, rod angle and rpm. Cylinder and wristpin offset are taken into account by rod angle. This affect is also related to the inherent imbalance of a flat plane crank inline four...the changes in rod angle are different for the two pistons leaving TDC than they are for the two leaving BDC, creating different piston velocities, accelerations, and forces. Different forces = unbalanced forces = a bit of vibration. The degree of mismatch between the arc the big end travels and the arc the rod would "like" to swing in is different in the top of the stroke vs the bottom. Buzzz...that, and the sound, are the worst qualities of inline fours to me. But they are so sensible in other ways!
Sorry, I may have missed this part, but can someone explain which part of a shaft drive allows for the equivalent of slack in a chain to compensate for a moving swingarm?
The shaft on a motorcycle has the same setup of splines as on a car or truck to allow for the rear wheel to move front to back some, the shaft is enclosed so it's not something you see but it has to have it or it would bind up and cause problems
I would really like to hear you make a podcast on your investigation as to if Yamaha is actually planning to build an RD350 two-stroke motorcycle that with modern technology is able to be Euro5 emissions compliant. Currently there is a wide speculation on the specifics such as actual horsepower, electric starting, compression ratio, cat converters, etc. You being the 'inside' people to the motorcycle world might be able to find the real answers' I have 4 really nice current motorcycles; a 2010 VFR1200f. a 2012CBR250r. a 2014 CB1100, and a 2023 Grom, but long to own once again a light, powerful small two-stroke bike with water cooling and fuel injection.
Why does applying foot brake and slippling the clutch allow full lock parking lot turns at very slow speeds. If I apply enough rear brake and slip the clutch enough (Poor Clutch), I can almost balance the bike at zero MPH. This maneuver facilitates very tight U turns. There is some physics here can you guys explain it?
Keeping the engine spinning is acting like a stabilizing gyroscope, trials bike riders will balance bike at zero speed and Rev engine with clutch pulled in, riding rear brake also helps keep a bike more stable by keeping a constant load on suspension and drive chain,some pro motocross riders would overheat the rear brake because they were riding the rear brake in rough terrain to stabilize bike
@@GS-zv3qn Been experimenting with Front vs. Rear Brake at full lock turns. Harder to control both throttle and front brake, but think there could be a positive difference using the front instead of back in slow maneuvers. The front tire contact patch moves relative to the rear wheel patch and motorcycle push vector due to handle bar position as well as other suspension effects.
Wouldn't the Front Wheel stop vector interact with the Wheel Push Vector to cause a net torque torque vector on the bike? Punching way over my pay grade here..
Turn off sound and it looks like a Wayne's World blooper reel. Now that I got your attention, can you talk about dual plugging heads for the Harley Shovelhead motor?
Anyone here old enough to remember the ATK Chain Tensioner device from the early '80's that you clamped to your swingarm, which claimed to eliminate or dampen suspension maladies via power transfer from the drive chain? If I'm not mistaken, Cycle World must have done at least an article or two on it over the years. (I have all the magazine issues from then, but am too lazy to dig them out, lol) I can't remember how it was received by the in-the-know community for better or worse, but I believe it faded into obscurity as a "great idea, but didn't quite work" type of thing.
I bought a small fleet of Suzuki GS1000G/850G/1100G motorcysles to tour with my brothers. Cheap comfortable durable. I was pleased not to do chain lubrication or inspection. Yes you can tour on a $600.00 bike without the bike creating the drama.
Belt is just as low maintenance as shaft drive...occasionally have to change the belt but you occasionally have to change the oil in a shaft drive as well. However, i prefer chain drive. Theryre all very easy to maintain.
All the complaints about chains come from people who want motorcycles to be cars. Belts can trap objects and get damaged, shafts are heavy and affect the suspension on decel. Shafts used to be reliable, but BMW fixed that.
OFF TOPIC- I read in a magazine article Kevin saying "an engine is most efficient at torque peak" At some point could you get him to elaborate on that fact?
People seem obsessed about horsepower, which is a math formula, whereas torque is measured. Above peak torque, the engine can spin faster to make more horsepower but it comes at a cost of efficiency as combustion is less efficient and dirtier. I'm a huge fan of modern torquey motors with lower redlines. They provide less of a number men like to quote but rarely ever see, but make better motorcycles for public roads. Yamaha is now reserving their high rpm motors for track bikes, where they only ever made sense.
In an age of 10 minute gratification, your hour long talks are mesmerising- thank you for the wisdoms.
So grateful to live in an era where such wisdom is available, easy to find and free. Thank you to both for this series and all the continuous support for Kevin's column at Cycle World.
I'm an Engineer but what I tell people on adjusting chains is to get the countershaft, swingarm pivot, and back axle in a line...then do that in spots around the chains circulation because they have or will develop tight and loose spots. Make the tightest spot really snug but without preload tension there. The geometry is called a toggle mechanism. Used in rock crushers to generate giga force axially going over center. Also I say to lube inside the chain so it might centrifuge into the chain versus flinging off after lubing on the outside. Then bend the straw with a lighter about 70 degrees, blowing through it while molten, and lube the link plate abutments both sides instead of just generally hosing it willy nilly and mostly in the middle.
And that's all I know about that. My gift is free advice. And oh yeah I'm a farmer too.
Well put! …at least the alignment of the countershaft, swingarm pivot and rear axle. Also correct on applying lube to the inside of the chain, so as to lube the rollers as much as possible. However, with the advent of the “o-ring” chain, there is really not much need to apply much more oil than that… because the lube will never get where it needs to go. Thnx
@@macmclemore Well there's the question...do you really need to lube an o-ring chain? I always wondered. Sealde sintered bushings.
@@jeffcraft3980 I would think spraying the grit off an o - ring chain with silicone spray from the inside to the outside would do. I saw someone who commented that they did only this regualrly and got insane chain life mileages. But he was a commuter and a tourer, not a racer.
@@phil4986
Thanks for that Phil, l'll pass this onto my chain drive pals and see how it goes.👏👍
Thanks Jeff👍
These Kevin Cameron podcasts are even better than my Cycle World subscription 40 years ago. You can only pack so much information into a magazine article.
Love this series. Best motorcycle content currently produced.
A tip that my dad gave me back in the sixties, and it's still true today, is that when adjusting the chain tension on a chain driven bike, the sprockets are never perfectly round, so, as the wheel and sprockets rotate, the chain will alternately go tight, then slack, as the chain passes over the high and low parts of the sprockets.
So, before adjusting the tension, first rotate the wheel by hand, and position it to the point where the chain is tightest, then adjust it. I often hear this phenomenon when a chain driven bike passes by, the chain makes a wow wow wow sound as the chain goes tight and slack during it's rotation.
I had forgotten about that. I will check my FZ09 because it calls for very little slack.
they might actually be round but the rear sprocket may not be exactly in the centre of the rear wheel
Also the shock travel plays a big part in chain tension.
@@Grampadude Yamaha continues doing the same thing with the Tracer 9....I think the spec is only right for a brand new chain because it is gonna stretch....once stretched the chain will be TOO TIGHT and i imagine NO mechanic follows the spec in the manual except perhaps for new chain brand new motorcycle....no your chain should not be like a guitar string....
When I was a kid riding my TM 125 all the way to road racing In my twenties, Kevin Cameron made me smarter and a better Motorcycle enthusiast. What a great gift it is to have him here talking,.
For me, anything but a shaft drive is a no-go on a long distance touring machine. I’ve had em all and not having to think about it on a trip is bonus.
If a chain gives out good chance you can get her back on the road in hours if you can find sprockets and chain or at least a chain...if a shaft self destructs (and they DO) you might be stuck for WEEKS somewhere....just saying ....and even a thrown chain the cracks cases good chance can be welded or epoxied.
@@dougiequick1Quite right. Also, a modern chain needs very little attention, and is highly unlikely to just let go without warning. Even in deepest Siberia you'll be able to find a chain to fit your modern bike.
Who knew a conversation about final drives could be enthralling? 😂 Kevin Cameron is truly a National Treasure! #motorcyclesdontscareme #coldchewinggum #bestforwhom
Gentlemen, I was very hurt when Kevin Cameron mentioned 😢 John Wittner had passed.😢. What a great man! I helped pick up his bike when he crashed at Road Atlanta in about 1983 but touching me was that he rode a Suzuki and purchased our Cogent Dynamics suspension for his motorcycle. He was very pleased with that and he called me a couple times and once he asked if HE asked little me if HE could call to talk more if I had time. I loved the man, so intelligent and interesting. I feel a little robbed and partly because of my not reaching out more to absorb hit experience but more so his wonderful spirit. God Speed DR. John and thank you for your kindness such a fantastic man. We have lost a treasure. I doubt this will be read in your podcasts but know, you two share much of this spirit from what I have read and heard.
I have never listened to or watched podcasts on anything, however I love this series and the time flies by. Great content and hosts, thanks.
This channel is AMAZING. Best motorcycle "stuff" I've ever come across. This is like the after party conversation at a MotoGP race. Bra-voo.
Wonderful discussions about motorcycle workings, thank you gentlemen, these are a weekly pleasure 🍻
Great stuff! Over the past 50+ years l have owned all 3. Back when I thought I was a "racer " a chain was the only way to go. Then I bought a Guzzi Lemans I loved the shaft though it did have a maintenance schedule requiring some work. Now that I am older and not concerned about the maximum acceleration or need to change ratios my Buell and most recently Harley-Davidson belts have proven to be my personal favorite. Keep the good stuff coming. Kevin has always been able to spike my interest in the engineering side of things by keeping it understandable to us lazy brains! And I do miss Gordon Jennings. Should have kept that 2 Stroke Tuners Manual I bought in 1973.
This is the best motorcycle enthusiast publication since Mr Parkhurst. It is such a happy and wonderful thing that you are doing ! Nobody else now does this level of motorcycle knowledge transfer. It is so good. Please continue. We need to round up 1M subscribers for you.
I have not owned a belt drive bike, but hear the Harley guys like them. I have owned several chain bikes and several shaft drive bikes. Shaft drive is hands down my favorite. The chain purists will complain shaft design eats horsepower, but the minimal maintenance to horsepower loss is well worth it !
Absolutely, 👏👏👏🍻
The fact is you get oodles of horsepower these days that you can afford to sacrifice a couple of percent. You still get amazing power and performance from them and they are pretty much worry free.
I am trying running my o-ring chain dry. A fellow KLR 650 owner ran a chain dry and cleaned it periodically with just WD-40 and got something like 38,000 miles on a chain and sprocket set. The theory being that the dry, clean chain wore more slowly than a lubed chain with a grinding compound of dirt in the lube. I only have 6,000 miles, but so far only one chain adjustment since new.
Please give updates
Hey, in these comments, the first one with 3 replies, a guy mentions chain maintenance of an o ring chain, just with a good cleaning regime using silicon spray.
I changed to shaft drive after a chain let go on me years ago, got lucky, no injury, minimal bike damage, still ridable.
That brings back some memories of when I was about 10 years old, watching the old man with the motorcycle chain in the kitchen on the hotplate. Duckham's graphite in a big tin, it melted and the chain was dropped in. Then he would take it out the back and hang the chain over the pan to drain it back in for re-use.
He was waxing the chain with paraffin and graphite. This is currently fashion in cycling, where chains cannot have o rings due to added drag.
Ah Mosport in 67. I drove sweep truck that day. Great time Hailwood Agostini Ivy etc. Still have a plug from an rc 166
I just love these conversations. As an aside velocette made an experimental constantly variable transmission using a humble 350 Mac engine which at best produced approx 16 hp and the thing bent the frame and distorted the chassis due to the torque multiplying effect.Transmissions and torque effects reactions are a whole huge book of calculations on their own .thanks again for these insights .👍
Ive had them all and i think belt drive is the most bang for your buck in terms of performance, maintenance and reliability.
I’m guessing you’re a Hardely Ableson guy. At least now… at this point in your life. Just curious… wonder why there are no performance bikes using belt drive…?
Another great podcast. thank you very much.
How about doing a podcast with Peter Egan from time to time?
After all, he was the main reason for my 20+ years subscriptions to Cycle World and Road & Track...
It's in the plan!
@@markhoyer1736 cannot wait :)
16:15 I'm new to Cycle World but already I've learned that there's nothing more Kevin Cameron than reading a ball bearing catalog for leisure
On chains, As an old farm boy you learn real quick which way to install the chain circlip.
I do love the shaft drive of my Moto Guzzi V100S!
I enjoy the podcasts!
I toured the US over a six week period. I pretty much had to lube my chain every-single-day. I came away after that trip dreaming of a belt drive ZRX.
Auto chain oiler is your friend.
@@EnlightenedSavageYes it is but I’m too stubborn to add one to my bike. 👍
If you had to lube your chain that often… you had THE WRONG CHAIN. …or… you were just doing it wrong…. …or both.
@@macmclemore I was riding 400 to 800 miles per day. Top spec chain and yes I know how to lube a chain. If you’ve ever ridden further than your local coffee shop you would know you cut down any chance of something going wrong. I wore out a set of ST tires on that trip as well. Wrong tires?
I recently bought a set of wheels from Kino Wheels in Italy. There are six sets of wheel bearings in each wheel..I have never seen that done before ..
Thanks for such an in-depth series. On the subject of enclosed chain drives, 30,000 mile service life on the enclosed chain on my yamaha xv1000 tr1. A pain to change, runs a litre of ep2 grease which along with the absence of dirt is the secret to the extended life. Great for dirt roads.
Checked out the Merch Page. Bring back the Kevin Cameron t-shirts!!
I am not sure about USA but in UK 60's (I think) we used to buy a large round flat tin of "Linklife" that the chain was "simmered" in on the hot plate of the stove (after cleaning) and was way better than anything previously but not according to mum!
my concours 14 got a great shaft drive wish all bikes like this great content
Thanks for reading Mr. Gregory's remarks about working with T.C. Christenson at Sunset Motors in Kenosha Wisconsin. The distance between his shop and Harley-Davidson is about fifty miles. There must have been fierce week end battles at local drag strips back in the day when each was developing their drag bikes.
Very insightful of you to mention motorcycles, Bimota comes to mind, that had the centerline of the output sprocket concentric with the swing arm pivot. I recall the ATK A-Trak that was another attempt at a solution of chain geometry affecting handling.
Thanks again for another thought provoking, insightful Podcast.
In the eighties I did a motor swap, XT500 motor into PE250 frame. The motor sprocket was a long way forward from the swingarm pivot and it had 13 inches of travel so a lot of reaction from the chain on the rear suspension. I made a ball bearing supported sprocket and held the chain down to just off the swingarm pivot. The suspension then worked properly right through it's travel including over harsh ground.
Kenny Roberts is a smart guy he helped to Develop the Lectron Carburetor and built his own Two Stroke Race Bikes called the Proton. They had some Electronics and Fuel Injection . When the AMA allowed 1,000 CC Fourt Strokes to compete with 500 CC Two Strokes, it put and End to KR's Protons and the Bikes that Eric Buell was building ..
This podcast is great! I have always admired Kevin’s works, and have read his materials since forever it seems. Having just discovered this channel recently, I’m very impressed, plus I can hear Kevin’s voice!!! 👍😊🏍️
Im an engineer setting chain tension almost an art-form, amazing how many motorcyclists dont know about tight spots. Setting the belt tension on a Zero has taken it to the next level (Ive broken 2 on the SRF following manufacturers instructions and the click tension tester) its about alignment more than tension.
Amazing how many motorcyclists actually couldn’t care less about their chain. I haven’t been riding for a really long time, about 7 years, yet I’ve so many horror shows on wheels.
I own a Zero, an FXE, and haven’t yet adjusted the belt tension. Apart from the alignment, what tip would you give ? Would you use a laser to check the alignment like on a chain driven bike ?
Me too. But I’ve never in all of my decades of riding and racing motorcycles have I ever set or checked chain tension. Unless you were talking about a cam chain. I have set belt tension on Harleys but all of the chains I have dealt with I have checked and adjusted chain slack.
@@davidleonard8369 yep chain slack is a better way of describing chain setting, your looking to back off any tension at the tight spot to ensure you have optimal slack
I liked the enclosed chain on my 1969 Bultaco Metralla. Didn’t add too much weight and the chain was very clean.
Reading old articles about the 80’s SUZUKI GS850, they talk about the shaft drive NOT climbing and diving due to some magic, can’t remember just what now.
Speaking of the R90S based superbike - I suppose you know of Helmut Dähne, former racer and longtime Metzeler developer. I recall an interview with him in the early 1970s, where he said that on his race BMWs, he softened the already unusually soft suspension. Supposedly for better grip. It must also have demanded a very smooth, and particular riding style in order to have enough cornering clearance and stability to win races. There is a video of him circulating Nürnburgring on TH-cam at a very fast pace on his RC30, yet it looks very smooth and in control.
Attempting to simultaneously renew and run a 1967 Austin-Healey Sprite directed me toward motorcycling as a viable transportation option. 😊
Shaft drive on my Guzzi is very nice indeed.
If I understood correctly, at around 29:20 it's said that if the counter shaft is concentric with the swing arm pivot the bike won't turn.
The only thing that comes to mind is that it's not them being concentric that's the issue but that the swing arm is so short.
If that's not it, please explain.
I never miss an episode. Well done.
Enclosed chains bathed in oil? The British bikes did it back when a motorcycle was considered a reasonable form of primary transportation. And yes, they lasted a very long time and kept Gentlemen's clothes unblemished!
Harley had them too.. My 1984 FXRT has the rear chain in a oil bath enclosure.
@@onelooperhudson967
Not sayin' your wrong, but the 84 FXRT specs show a belt drive. Maybe you're thinking of the primary?
Only the Harley Fxrt and FLT models had the enclosed final drive chain in 30 wt motor oil and only for the 1982-1984 model years. They are a pain in the rear to change the tire and can seep oil. The chains and sprockets last forever. My original rear sprocket has 110k+ miles on it and it shows very little wear. The non o-ring basic chains are good for 35k. They run cool and clean plus you can’t hear them. I have had two of these bikes and have had my current one 12 years. Dealers used to charge 6 hours to change the rear tire. That’s probably why it was discontinued.
@@onelooperhudson967
Learn something new every day!
@@onelooperhudson967
When I had my bike shop I changed the rear tire on one of those FLT's once, after that I told customers that they'd have to bring in the rear wheel only because I don't have all day to reprove and replace a rear wheel.
Those enclosed chains absolutely do last forever just like and for the same reason the primary chains do, because they don't get all that real fine road grime that's being whipped up off the road surface at highway speed all over them.
Harley had an enclosed rear drive even before that, back in the Panhead days there was an option that fully enclosed the rear drive that was a stamped tin cover like the primary covers from back in those days.
HD Sturgis. My brother has one. Just keep plenty of primary belts on hand. Love!y machine under 60 mph.
Very entertaining and enlightening. Love the topic and the very in-depth knowledge you guys share. You missed out the performance/power tradeoffs of different drive styles (and efficiency). Maybe another topic could be engine efficiencies and the best coupling of engine power to final wheel. I’m sure this would open up a lot of discussion points and be very interesting.
Good stuff, you have another subscriber.
I have a Hardley Ableson, which is always in the shop, it's been there longer than I've owned it at this point, but the best thing about it is the belt drive. You just ride, get off, shrug, go inside, ride again. Through any weather. We'll it's in the shop again, hopefully for the last time; I couldn't go another summer with nothing, picked up a new SV650, absolutely love it...but.... chain maintenance.. every few days... I enjoy it now, sit there listen to a podcast, it's relaxing. But the chemicals and the mess...
Every few days? Modern chains need cleaning and adjusting a few times a season. Use chain spray wax. It does the job, does not attract dirt and leaves no mess.
These videos are really interesting. I’m glad TH-cam somehow figured out that I’d like this content. New found appreciation for Cycle World magazine 🙂👍 And, in my opinion a proper motorcycle has a chain drive and spoked wheels 🙂
Begins at 5:46
As always I very much enjoy this type of video however, there was no mention of efficiency with regard to chain vs belt vs shaft.??
Agree, efficiency is very important especially with high fuel prices.
I’m pretty sure Kev has covered this subject as well. Chain and cog belt are quite close and both are vastly more efficient that shaft. Most of this has to do with all the 90 degree direction changes needed to drive a motorcycle with shat drive.
I had a Moped with variable belt primary drive in 1965 . Only one pulley changed ratio . The engin was hanging from a top pivot pulled back by the belt and pulley, pulled forward by a large torsion spring . When the variable pulley squeezed together to increase its diameter to raise the final drive ratio the engine swung backward.
Just a shame that E. J. Potter and Boris Murray have passed on. Having produced two of the most famous drag racing pics of all time. A few stories there. As to internal combustion geometry, this channel www.youtube.com/@d4a is quite good.
As to chains, the Yamaha XV920RJ with its enclosed, "grease bath" chain was nice. Sadly, the drive lasted longer than the rest of the bike. Ahhh...Diamond Chain. Rode 15K miles around the US on my '74 TX650A and a single Diamond 530 XDL chain. Ran the two cylinder head breather hoses through the top. of the drive sprocket guard so that a mist/drip kept the chain oiled "juuuust right."
Great stuff here! Physics is so much fun!
Yamaha TR1/XV920 + MZ rubber chain tubes were great.
In one of my classes in mechanical engineering technology years ago, we were told all chains were designed to be run in an oil bath only. Which jives nicely with my experience of failures and rapid wear on my motorcycles.
Many of the smaller bikes had enclosed chain guards, which should have been a good idea, but in the abusive hands of young riders, were more a pain in the butt, and were often just removed.
No doubt today's modern chains, ie, motgp, Superbikes, etc, the quality and longevity is far superior to 20, 30, 40 years ago.
However, cars and trucks gave up chains 100+? years ago....
With minimal hp loss, and ease of drive gear change would be my only reason to use a chain again.
I'll stick with my diff drive, or go to a belt if l get a Harley.
This was an issue 40 years ago. Modern sealed chains and wax treatment mean little adjustment required and a 20,000 mile or more life. For a few hundred dollars you then get a completely new drivetrain.
I get over 100,000+ miles out of a belt drive. The shaft drive outlast the bike it's attached to. Chains are for race bikes and dirt bikes and vintage British motorcycles. Bikes should be shaft drive or belt drive. In the 1980's Kawasaki would have chain driven,shaft drive,or belt drive versions of the same bike so you had a choice of final drive. I miss those days.
I love the sound of chain tensioners.
…you’re doing it wrong
How about deliberately touching the rear brake into and out of turns_this can help stabilize the height and keep the wheels on the ground. I picked that up riding a friend's R75, before anyone told me about trail braking.
Mcrider and Canyonchasers have some great tips, njoy your ride!
The more technical you guys go the better. Very interesting. Thanks for making us bikers smarter. Fun.
Chains are great but messy which I dont care for ... Love the belt drive , had it on small Kawasaki street bike and it was quiet and long lasting ... Shaft drive has its quirks , but hondas design on the goldwing made it really good with the counter rotating drive train that eliminated alot of the quirkyness ... I like it best ....
I love this content. Let's talk about why bikes have multiple carbs or throttle bodies instead of just one next time.
When i was desert racing in the southwest in the mid '70s large countershaft sprokets with large rear sprokets was the thing to do ..with large sprokets your chain does not have to flex as much to follow around the sproket making less friction and heat
I listen with a pad and paper because, "The center of mass" is always shifting due to my insatiable need for "The Stuff"!
My "journey away from helplessness" just began March of this year. And this is the beauty of the algorithm. I get Joe Shmow and I get you. But I subscribe to you 🔔.
SKWID
Rider’s Shipmate
ET1(SS/SW/MTS) US Navy, Ret.
Killmonger: 2020 Fat Boy (Stage II+ by Blockhead)
SilverBAK: 2021 Road Glide (S&S 129ci/Fueling Race Kit by the Rider’s Shipmate)
Sitting here in Asia, appreciating the wisdom shared on your podcasts. I really miss the simplicity of my RD 250,s 350,s and 400 . Oh those were the days. KTM have a two stroke trail bike that can be registered for the road. What's stopping them from making a two stroke road bike with today's technology ?
They still burn dirty and guzzle fuel.
Application and preference are key, but longevity and ease of daily use is very important. I really like shaft drives, but as a H-D rider for some time now the belt is very dependable.
I did a belt conversion on a Triumph Bobber. The difference in noise is substantial.
Kevin it's me the filthy hippie who used to pester you at Arlington Motorsports. I'll jog your memory Kawi H1 and an ATK Anti Tension Kettenantreib and I was going to rule the track!
Been watching this podcast a lot lately. Very impressive! Gotta say though, sometimes the elephant in the room is either not addressed, or marginalized. Just two quick examples. The podcast I listened to recently that was devoted to the incredible history of Ducati’s racing success.
While it was accurate in every detail,(as far as I could tell),I didn’t catch any mention of the fact that every time Ducati’s twins were unable to compete with the four cylinder Japanese bikes, the rules were changed in one way or another, to allow the Italians to, not only compete, but to dominate.
In a similar fashion, the episode concerning the rise in popularity of the parallel twin engines, while not ignoring the issue of cost, seemed to minimize that concern, while extolling the virtues of that engine type.
I suspect that, cost not being a concern, the four cylinder’s and the sport bikes that enjoyed huge sales numbers 15 years ago, would be every bit as popular today as they were then.
Just some thoughts from a 63 year old, still riding a current generation GSXR 750.
I would use a film can to boil my chain on the gas stove for my Norton 750, great podcast
I always wanted to make a swing arm out of the cam drive sides of a Honda interceptor engine . Swing arm full of straight cut gears half full of oil.
I have a 1981 Suzuki GS650E and recently I had to change the shifter seal and I had to takeoff the chain cover while I was in there I also changed the 15 tooth sprocket to a 16 tooth sprocket, I was surprised to see that inside of that cover there was a layer of insulation against the cover that looked like it was made out of fiberglass or something like that and it must be for noise suppression and I was just surprised to see that.The bike works much better with the 16 tooth sprocket.The shifter seal must’ve been there for 40 years I drove a screw into it and grabbed the screw with vicegrips and then had to use the prybar to get it to let go. Do you guys know if anybody makes 65 mm forged pistons for a Suzuki GS650E? Thanks for the great videos.
I've had chain and driveshaft bikes and shaft is WAY better. I'd like to try belt drive too.
No "Bull" this time, just an admiration for the modern motorcycle chain.
My 2003 Kawasaki ZR7s has 180,000 km on the OEM EK chain, and there's much more left in it.
In a riding season, I usually cover about 20,000 km, and might make one adjustment of well less than than 360° on the drawbolt's nuts. I do oil the chain as the rollers on sprocket teeth need lubrication as do all rolling element bearings.
Much better than my first bike, 1967 Triumph TR6R, with a short lived Renold.
you must obey the speed limit then
Welcome to the internet comments section. There are two types of comments: senior citizens who amplify slight inconvenience based on 50 year old anecdotes; and people who have never ridden a bike.
Any idea why BMW moved away from belt drive? I love it and wished they kept it. I hate chain drive for a variety of reasons and don't want to get a big 1200cc bike to get into shaft drive. I was hoping you were going to answer this.
Since the early 2000s, BMWs have been a masterclass of designed failure points to keep parts counters and service bays busier. The adoption of plastic parts with set heat duty cycles is just villainous.
Chain cases were once common, early Japanese and eastern European manufacturers. I had a CA95 Dream, and its 428 chain lasted the entire time I owned it. Oil bath chain case, not fashionable but practical. I later had a 73 Z1, its giant 630 chain lasted 6k miles even with the messy automatic oiler. Now a days o-ring chains last 12~15k miles (Honda 919 and Super Duke) without the mess.
Belt drives don't like dirt/gravel roads, I do. I also had a Yamaha XS11 with a Blake turbo kit, the shaft drive effect on the suspension was extreme. Taught me to be smooth with the throttle and rear brake but there were moments of wheel hop that probably looked funny. But I wasn't amused.
"Rio Hondo" in México they told me it means deep river. Additionally it means an intellectual deep dive.
It is always, "great to learn".
SKWID
ET1(SS/SW/MTS) US Navy, Ret.
Really like hearing you guys. So much real world experience, knowledge. Tech & passion. Keep it up!
Very interesting. So if they could mount the engine on the rear swing arm (Or Part of the Wheel itself) you would have zero squat or lift. Didn't the old V8 Vega have a heavy steel structure to connect the rear differential and rear of the transmission to halfway solve similar issues?
Two other Question of similar catagory:
1. Why doesn't a Honda Gold Wing tend to lean when you accelerate? Massive torque race boats require trim tabs.. what's the difference?
2. Steering Geometry: Why does applying brake with a slipping clutch during slow speed maneuvers tend to lift or "UnLean" the bike?
I dub this episode: "Factors to consider when applying Big Power thru Sprockets". I love a TZ750 or TR6 sidebar as much as the next guy, but can we get to the title question at some point? 45 mins in and we're still down the swingarm pivot point rabbit hole..
So, if you upgrade your front and rear sprocket to slightly larger sizes and put appropriate chain length, how do you measure the proper slack? Would it be the same as a stock chain or how would you determine proper slack?
The chain would need to be checked by compressing rear suspension to see if it gets too tight at any point in suspension travel, it's better to be on loose side, to much tension can cause chain breakage or damage engine case or bearing damage or wear on rear wheel or countershaft
Question: Will retaining a 530 chain on a 1k cc sportbike extend it's service life, or would a 520 conversion last [nearly] equally as long? Will the reduction in rotating mass be felt at the throttle?
Do the road race bikes keep the 530 chain when they race, with 200 plus hp bikes they might need to stay with 530 chain, it would be easy to see by looking pictures of race bikes
You can see the squat and lift forces by doing the following: while sitting still, apply the rear brake and slight throttle and patially let out the clutch... the rear end will squat. Now put the front wheel against a wall and apply small throttle (do not apply the rear brake) and the rear end will rise. With a high torque dirt bike especially an old 500 2 stroke, the rear suspension would become useless due to too much squat
Once again, very cool.
I made all the vibration in my GS 500 disappear by increasing the front sprocket from 15 teeth to 16. And a seat padded with semi viscous polymer padding. So comfy after that.
A Scottoiler will dramatically increase the life of your chain, maybe beyond the life of an unlucky shaft. Even better, is the super simple TuToRo oiler. One can expect a chain life of over 40k miles. I hear that BMW have started that the service life of the 1300 GS's shaft is just 80km (50k miles).
Paraphrasing: if you are fortunate to live long enough, everything reminds you of something else. Wow! I can relate to that.
I like em all ,but chains are my fave
I don't think I agree on the max instantaneous piston speed being attained when the con rod centerline is at 90⁰ to the crank throw. Very close, but if you want to split hairs, and apparently we do, the angular misalignment of the bore and the con rod centerline causes max speed to occur just after the 90⁰ point. (On the down stroke)
The piston is not traveling in the same direction as the rod big end, and that matters. Lengthening the rod reduces this effect, but it is never gone.
No, I'm not going to try to figure out exactly where that point is, but it is determined by stroke, rod angle and rpm.
Cylinder and wristpin offset are taken into account by rod angle.
This affect is also related to the inherent imbalance of a flat plane crank inline four...the changes in rod angle are different for the two pistons leaving TDC than they are for the two leaving BDC, creating different piston velocities, accelerations, and forces. Different forces = unbalanced forces = a bit of vibration. The degree of mismatch between the arc the big end travels and the arc the rod would "like" to swing in is different in the top of the stroke vs the bottom.
Buzzz...that, and the sound, are the worst qualities of inline fours to me. But they are so sensible in other ways!
Oops. Please replace "affect" with "effect" in the beginning of the second to last paragraph there! (Continuing with the hairs)
Sorry, I may have missed this part, but can someone explain which part of a shaft drive allows for the equivalent of slack in a chain to compensate for a moving swingarm?
Splines.
The shaft on a motorcycle has the same setup of splines as on a car or truck to allow for the rear wheel to move front to back some, the shaft is enclosed so it's not something you see but it has to have it or it would bind up and cause problems
@@GS-zv3qn Thank you.
John Gregory, managed Aston Villa & Derby County but I wouldn’t let him adjust the chain on my Street Triple
I would really like to hear you make a podcast on your investigation as to if Yamaha is actually planning to build an RD350 two-stroke motorcycle that with modern technology is able to be Euro5 emissions compliant. Currently there is a wide speculation on the specifics such as actual horsepower, electric starting, compression ratio, cat converters, etc. You being the 'inside' people to the motorcycle world might be able to find the real answers' I have 4 really nice current motorcycles; a 2010 VFR1200f. a 2012CBR250r. a 2014 CB1100, and a 2023 Grom, but long to own once again a light, powerful small two-stroke bike with water cooling and fuel injection.
Is it just me or did they skip shafts other than mentioning there were some wierd thigs with them? Plenty on chains. smidge on belts..
Why does applying foot brake and slippling the clutch allow full lock parking lot turns at very slow speeds. If I apply enough rear brake and slip the clutch enough (Poor Clutch), I can almost balance the bike at zero MPH. This maneuver facilitates very tight U turns. There is some physics here can you guys explain it?
Keeping the engine spinning is acting like a stabilizing gyroscope, trials bike riders will balance bike at zero speed and Rev engine with clutch pulled in, riding rear brake also helps keep a bike more stable by keeping a constant load on suspension and drive chain,some pro motocross riders would overheat the rear brake because they were riding the rear brake in rough terrain to stabilize bike
@@GS-zv3qn Been experimenting with Front vs. Rear Brake at full lock turns. Harder to control both throttle and front brake, but think there could be a positive difference using the front instead of back in slow maneuvers. The front tire contact patch moves relative to the rear wheel patch and motorcycle push vector due to handle bar position as well as other suspension effects.
Wouldn't the Front Wheel stop vector interact with the Wheel Push Vector to cause a net torque torque vector on the bike? Punching way over my pay grade here..
Hmm is it legal to swap Clutch and Front brake Levers so I can do both at once better?
Try flopping the slack on a large KTM chain, it's like a telegraph wire of slack. I really want a shaft drive on my next bike 🙂
Turn off sound and it looks like a Wayne's World blooper reel. Now that I got your attention, can you talk about dual plugging heads for the Harley Shovelhead motor?
Anyone here old enough to remember the ATK Chain Tensioner device from the early '80's that you clamped to your swingarm, which claimed to eliminate or dampen suspension maladies via power transfer from the drive chain? If I'm not mistaken, Cycle World must have done at least an article or two on it over the years. (I have all the magazine issues from then, but am too lazy to dig them out, lol) I can't remember how it was received by the in-the-know community for better or worse, but I believe it faded into obscurity as a "great idea, but didn't quite work" type of thing.
It depends on the application. Shaft drive is best for daily riding in my opinion.
I bought a small fleet of Suzuki GS1000G/850G/1100G motorcysles to tour with my brothers. Cheap comfortable durable. I was pleased not to do chain lubrication or inspection. Yes you can tour on a $600.00 bike without the bike creating the drama.
Belt is just as low maintenance as shaft drive...occasionally have to change the belt but you occasionally have to change the oil in a shaft drive as well. However, i prefer chain drive. Theryre all very easy to maintain.
All the complaints about chains come from people who want motorcycles to be cars. Belts can trap objects and get damaged, shafts are heavy and affect the suspension on decel. Shafts used to be reliable, but BMW fixed that.
OFF TOPIC- I read in a magazine article Kevin saying "an engine is most efficient at torque peak" At some point could you get him to elaborate on that fact?
The small cc bikes also have better efficiency also ,they could talk about best engine size
People seem obsessed about horsepower, which is a math formula, whereas torque is measured. Above peak torque, the engine can spin faster to make more horsepower but it comes at a cost of efficiency as combustion is less efficient and dirtier. I'm a huge fan of modern torquey motors with lower redlines. They provide less of a number men like to quote but rarely ever see, but make better motorcycles for public roads. Yamaha is now reserving their high rpm motors for track bikes, where they only ever made sense.
@@GS-zv3qn Cycle World was a US publication (a shadow of its former self). That market does not care about fuel efficiency or emissions.