If someone is fearless that means the they doesn't fully understand the risks they are facing. In the motorcycle world, if someone calls you fearless, it's an insult.
I’m exactly the same! I commute daily on the bike so I get loads of riding time in BUT same as you some days I’m properly got it together other days it all goes to shit
I’m not trying to sound like a smart ass but it’s not a “dark art” it’s a matter of applying a few simple golden rules and really thinking about them while riding. Many riders I’ve met are often thinking about numerous other things whilst riding, concentrating on what we are actually doing when riding is without a doubt a life saver! X Cheers 👏😀👍🏍
It doesn’t have to be a dark art. Some try to make it out to be this super complicated process. I feel like when we understand the tools and being adaptable riders, not riding by rote sequence, it starts to make a lot more sense.
So thankful for your clear instruction. I’m back to riding after 45 years away from it. Your clear concise pointers are a life saver, literally! Thanks.
Me too. Back after 3 decades away. Picked up a new DesertX ADV bike three months ago, have 3.6k miles on it already. Be safe out there. 👍 7:13 I learned this technique driving karts when I was a teenager. Squaring (late apex) larger turns reduced lap times.
@@curtisalan4402 Awesome. I almost purchased a V-Rod around a decade ago. I took the Texas MSF course even though I rode decades ago. This is always a good idea when getting back to riding motorcycles.
I concur with this 100%. Infact, after 30 yrs on and off, i found a way to simplify this concept even further. I simply want as much of my lane in my vision as possible at any given moment. If the corner is too tight for me to see safely far enough ahead for the speed i am carrying, i stick to the outside as much as i can, giving myself the maximum available vision of the road ahead and therefore easily being able to chose my trajectory through the curve. Once the concept of wanting to see down your lane as far ahead as possible clicks, it becomes instantly natural and almost automaticaly, you will be taking the corner correctly. Having said this, even after decades riding i feel i can still learn from videos such as these which i find very interesting and insightful. Deffinately subscribing, thanks for a great video 👍👍👍
Thanks - this is a good way to look at it. To want to have as much of the lane in your vision as possible, so you can choose the trajectory through the curve. So 2% front braking and looking far ahead into the curve - these are two techniques I will try when I hit those twisties again this weekend!
My riding buddy and I were out earlier this year. We've been riding together for about 15 years and have taken California Superbike School together. He had a tough go of it that day and said he just felt nervous and apprehensive once we upped the pace a little bit. The next time out he was 100% better. He said he got lazy and was not looking out far enough ahead and was visually following my tail instead of looking ahead of me. Sooooo much of riding is where you look. Thank you so much for your content. It's always spot on. Keep em' coming. I'd love to go riding with you some day!
We are not always at our best! I have learned to respect when I am feeling apprehensive ( maybe I am tired or have too much on my mind ) and feeling less skillful. Such moments are just less fun.
Sometimes I also ride in a group & I find it to be true that one can get somewhat lazy & tend to watch the bike in front of them instead of looking ahead at the road & it makes a world of difference.
Dave you are without a doubt the best instructor I’ve ever heard. No contradictions, ever. Reiterating with fresh language the same point several times, you reenforce the concept and actions required to achieve the clearly stated goal: get through the corner smoothly, efficiently, joyfully… ride the ride, get home, ride again. Thanks man, I don’t think there’s one video you’ve made that I only watched/listened to once. I watch them repeatedly, and hear your voice as I train myself on the road to be a better rider. Each curve is an opportunity for success and joy. Onward!
If you think this is wrong and you ride. You don't trust your front brake it can be the only reason. Go to an open parking lot and practice slowly pushing that front brake till you trust yourself. It will change everything in your riding and confidence it did for me. 63 and still learning.
well explained, I have been downshifting and trail braking into corners for years, I ride in Mallorca Spain, where there are many tight downhill hairpins, works every time, Ducati Monster rider! 65, and😅 still upright...
You must be doing alot right, including living in paradise ! ( 67 here in the smoky mountains of NC USA ) Downshifting seems to help plant the the bike where I want it because I am less likely to fall away from the chosen geometry should I lose too much speed. Fascinating topic.
I'm really grateful for your videos man, I just won second place in slalom riding (weaving around cones) the other day, followed all your instructions, and was able to secure second place. I can't believe how much my riding has improved - after watching and learning from your videos. I can't thank you enough for your amazing content. I am always looking forward to your next upload. You are the most amazing riding instructor.
Sometimes oncoming cars will turn into your lane. So hugging the center is actually risky. Especially in developing countries in South East Asia where cars don't care about respecting the center/median line
Forget developing countries.. I live in an Australian hinterland area and I can tell you that cars on the wrong or wrong-ish side of the road is common. Expected. Anyone that tries to apply racing line theory on real life mountain roads is asking for trouble.
I met a woman on a scooter on a blind corner heading for apex on wrong side of thecroad tmthe other day. Blind hairpin on mountain forest road that is askfor little more fun I met a dude and 2 friend the same (one bike) She breaked and I went inside her but the other dude ended up inside me and me accelerating and going wider to moss them. I was aware of chance or goats or people or a car parkon the bend etc. Bus overtaking a bus often leaves them on the side and you needing to be beamed up 😂. India is difficult 😢.
Below 45° of lean angle, the answer is always 'learn to lean more'. Went to a safety and lean angle training, and the instructor told us pretty clearly: For everyone that's not a MotoGp racer knowing every inch of tarmac ahead of him, the fastest way to corner is to overcut the corner - stay straight for longer into the corner, then lean while shifting your head to focus the exit or a point as far forwards as you can see with your eyes, reach a higher lean angle for a shorter period of time and accelerate as soon as you see the way forwards out of the corner. Because for people not living on the edge, the bike is fastest when it's not leaning. With this knowledge, my little 600 CBR could easily stay with all those 1250 GS in the Alps during my trip there two weeks ago, and at the same time my new tires lost all their chicken strips during those 2400 kms as you automatically lean further in when you're turning into the corner later than you are used to. You lean further for a shorter amount of time, which allows you to brake later and accelerate earlier. Seriously, if you participate in such a training, you begin to see how bad most folks are riding ( your previous self included ), and by taking the advice to heart I had an absolute blast in the twisties of the Alps ( which are much, much, much twistier than US stuff ) although I'm a relative beginner with around only two years of experience.
@@nathanytWithout braking, the suspension will also compress when cornering, due to lean angle and centripetal forces. So... what was demonstrated exactly ?
I learned in driving school, that breaking in a corner is not a good idea because you lose grip. It was explained to me like this: There is a certain force a tire can handle in all directions. If you apply break a bit of the grip is "bound" to the breaking, the rest remains with stearing/leaning left or right. If you don't apply breaking you have more grip for going left or right. Is that wrong? From a physics standpoint this argument made perfect sense so me...
If you are consistently using 100% of your traction in the corners you're going to get very tired of crashing very quickly. You are right in recognizing that there is a finite amount of grip available from a tire, based on the amount of pressure that the tire is being pressed into the road surface. Trail braking transfers some of the vehicle weight to the front tire, increasing the traction available from your front tire. When trail braking is being discussed, the amount of braking force that we are talking about is a very, very small amount of braking. Usually not much more front brake pressure than is required to light up the brake light. Nobody is say that you are going to give the front brake lever a big, rapid squeeze. Trail braking is usually done with 1 very gentle finger.
Your original trail braking video is what really allowed me to understand and actively use trail braking. It's probably the single most important skill I've learned and it has saved my bacon on more than one occasion. I'm shocked at the number of riders I've met that are reluctant to try it. The usual response is "That's a technique that's applicable only on the race track!" and "That's not what they taught me in the MSF course!". I even bought the Champ U course as a gift for a relative who rides a Ducati Monster and he still refuses to accept it. I suspect he never watched the course. I mean if you don't believe those guys, who are you going to believe. :)Thanks for sharing.
Something that has helped me with getting the bike turned towards the exit is using the painted lines (when available) as my "looking where you want to go" guidance. For example, on a right hand corner I'm following the center line (outside) with my eyes up until tip in. Then I turn my gaze to the fog line (inside) and follow that with my eyes. Discovering this has helped me tremendously! Everyone always says "look where you want to go" but just picking a vague point on the horizon means you're not really looking anywhere, and you don't want to pick a spot or an object because now you're target fixated PLUS once you get to that point you have to find another spot or target. Use the lines like the force.
In the pre learner, which is the Australian equivalent of the msf course this is taught as wide entry, close exit, with a slight drag on the brakes. It's nice to have a good in depth explanation of the function and also how to perform the manoeuvre better. Great video!
Agreed... Start out WIDE at the beginning of the bend, then twist the handlebars enough to get in TIGHT *halfway* through the turn. This way, you are successfully using ALL of the lane - WIDE and CLOSE IN. Start wide, then get in tight, and then return to the CENTRE of the lane as soon as you have left the turn and are entering the straight. Entering a tight downhill turn too fast is truly scary... and it can easily happen if you're on unfamiliar roads. Also apply a little *_rear brake_* as you are going through the turns. (ABS may help with the front brake if you have ABS.)
Great video, with clear explanations and really helpful footage of the front suspension doing its thing. I would add a few things for steep mountain roads: Be careful on tight, steep uphill turns. You can't get on the throttle too early or aggressively without losing the rear, but you also can't slow so much that you drop the bike. For long downhill sections, I borrow the trick from cycling, alternately using a bit of rear brake rather than just using the front, and also using engine braking to some extent.
Yeah, I nearly had an oopsie moment when I first encountered a really tight serpentine turn uphill, on a narrow road too so I wasn't going very quickly anyway.
For me the throttle is the big game changer. Break hard BEFORE the turn. We are (mostly) not on a race track. You should break to a good corner speed before even beginning to lean. You can control your bike with the throttle even without changing the lean angle. If you feel like the corner is narrower than expected, go off the throttle, the bike will get longer because of the breaking force of the engine which will extend the wheelbase and give you a better driving behavior of the bike. This will also reduce the curvature of your corner. If you find yourself in a situation where you come closer to the middle line, give it a little more throttle. Without changing the lean angle, the bike will increase the corner. This also applies to the exit. Hold your lean angle and increase more and more the throttle. The bike will go straighter and straighter even with the same lean angle than in the narrow corner.
Just coming off the throttle often does the same job. Slow(er) in fast(erl) out. I usually approach the corner slighty wide. It's safer and gives more options.
"earlier lighter longer" - 3 words, easy to remember, perfectly explains corner braking. When you're already on them ("earlier") applying a bit more for a tighter line is easy ("lighter"). Hold them till you're sure of your exit ("longer") and then...twist the wick and let 'er rip! Thanks for another outstanding video CC!
Like so many have already posted - this video was one of the most helpful that I’ve seen. Presented so simple, clear, and concise. I am 61 and have been riding for a long time, but I just learned some things here that I will be aware of today when I ride. Thanks
I've watched many of your videos featuring trail breaking and can honestly say they have been the biggest contributor to riding pleasure. It has stopped many of us 'running wide' into the danger zone...Where l ride here in España we have some wonderful roads, however many are festooned with blind 'switchback bends' through wooded areas which can be quite difficult and demanding Understanding positioning and the physics involved when gentle braking has been indispensable... Thanks CanyonChacer .... Regards from España.
Getting back after 20 years and I got a Adv bike, struggling with the power and size...this video really change my perspective about cornering , thank you!
I came off my bike 100km late at night on a wet corner have been struggling to regain any confidence so this video was a massive help. Thanks for the great content.
Glad it helped! It’s totally okay to be nervous. Listen to it and address the source of the nervousness. That’s the only way to successfully move forward.
Thank you for stating something I have been doing forever. Learning to use the front brake while cornering just came intuitively to me; as you stated the bike is so much more planted. Another thing, that I am not sure you mentioned, is that the motorcycle will go where you look. You did say never look at the front wheel and I would add it's relationship to the edge of the road. Rather, look where it is you want the bike to go. Kind of fun on a blind corner. A known blind corner works the same as any corner with no obstructions. An unknown blind corner, SLOW down and keep that front wheel planted.
couldn't agree with you more. Been practicing trial braking a lot last year and it's been an eye opener for me. Makes perfect sense, get the bike into the direction you want to go with the brakes. If only all instructors would teach this...
Downhill cornering is my pet hate. Uphill cornering isn't so bad, but I'm not the most experienced rider! Start out wide (near the painted centre lane line), then move in closer (towards the other side of the lane that you came in *wide* on) as the turn ends, and then get back to the very centre of the road as you exit onto the straight.
Went to bear tooth this summer with a group. I’ve been following and practicing your advice for two years now, and I’ve been sharing your tips with others in my group. Thanks so much for helping so many riders!
Cornering is 100% my fav thing, over big power or acceleration, it's like flying. It should feel free and fun, your machine choice is important, as is your attitude to riding. Don't listen to anyone but yourself and do what feels good, sure research stuff, but don't over think it. And be prepared to crash, because at some point you WILL crash (I have and I'm still here). Be your own person, there's a lot of BS floating out in the community, and good luck to you.
Outstanding! I love how you are so fantastic and really simplifying what otherwise can be very complex subject matter. You are always succinct and to the point. There are simply no wasted words in your presentations, and I ALWAYS come away with more knowledge that makes me a better motorcyclist as I go out and practice these things!! Great stuff!!
100% Agreed with everything. Many folks say don’t trail brake it is not the track…… nope… DO trail brake. At the track you are trailing to maximize corner entry speed. On the road it is to make your wheelbase shorter, increasing contact patch of the front tire to turn easier and IF you need to get on the brakes because of something impeding your path on a blind corner…. well you are already on the brakes. Not using brakes in the corner is a mistake… and yes you can increase brake pressure mid corner…. But you do have to be a bit careful. Good video. Works the same on 4 wheels too btw.
This technique only works in dry, clear asphalt. As someone who rides in the ice and snow, I can tell you this technique won't work in slippery conditions. Load weight into those front tyres on slippery ice, and it just increases the risk of slipping. So while its good advice for certain conditions, in other conditions it can cause more harm.
Yeah I started riding last summer and naturally trail braked, until I was turning off the highway and somebody had kicked up gravel from the shoulder into the road. Front tire went out, I went down, and now I'm trying to re-learn how to trail brake and corner confidently again (while keeping an ever-keener eye out for those fucking gravel spots! And using a lot more rear brake, they harp on the front brake too much on posters and shit)
Im way up north in canada with 💩 roads and gravel too, i just use back brake and sometimes down shift and then back up after the apex if it is a hard corner, and lean to your line with your head a bit, but main thing is "it isnt if you go down but when you go down" no choice but to go back and conquer that fear or it will sit on your mind forever @@baronnecas2880
As a newbie rider with a full Kawa Z900 as first bike, your videos have been extremely helpful and informative to ride safely and bring more joy from canyons without being so afraid to enter the corners. Thank you, this is public service right here 🙌🏻
Always great ride enhancing and life saving techniques shared. I never tried just engaging the *brake minimally and holding it late until I see the exit. My bike has so much engine *braking that I thought I couldn’t use trail braking. But expressed in this way I think it will work on my bike. Always be open to learn new things. Thanks!
Thank you for the kind donation. We don’t have to hold the brake until a specific point in the corner. We slow until we’re happy with our speed and direction. And I’d we need to, we can always go back to the brake.
Love that you’re riding a Ducati for this topic. I got into sport and naked bikes because of the Monster. The brakes were what made me switch from cruisers to sport.
Super informative video Dave. Some days my cornering works other days it's not so good but now you've given me the knowledge to make it the same every time. Thank you. Ride safe and ride well 🤓 🏍️
Absolutely the best video on cornering I've ever seen! Clear, concise information without lots of guff to muddy-up the message. You have gained a new subscriber...
Very cool idea. Alternately, it’s not difficult to try these ideas and see the results for yourself. Consider the possibility that helps more than a chart or graph.
Lots of good advice! Living in the Santa Cruz mountains and commuting year round is great training, much like the tighter parts of this road but 90% blind due to the dense redwood forest. Loose gravel and unpredictable fog condensate changes from hour to hour. It's very easy to recognize the visiting flatlanders, but also very easy to develop bad habits or get complacent no matter one's experience, hence I'm grateful for this refresher. As the old saying goes: slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Smooth also gets you home alive.
About a hundred years ago when I first started riding, someone told me, "Slow in. Fast out." and "Sometimes you have to go slow to go fast." When it comes to cornering, I have held onto those words of wisdom and applied them to how I ride on the track and off. I have taught countless people how to ride in my job and one thing I'm always sure to include are those same words. Control and proper bike management will get you out faster and on the correct line, and that builds confidence. A confident rider is a safer rider.
Two point that stood out to me were “The measure of a good corner is if we got good direction before we accelerate” and “Corner entrance helps us get to corner exit” thanks for sharing
this summer i start riding my restored 1967 Norton Atlas, have not ridden for 25 years and when i did it was all the wrong advice. These lessons are so good thank you.
Been practicing the “brake light initiative” a lot and it made a huge difference in my riding when I went to Tennessee and NC this year. Smooth is fast!!!!
I’ve been riding since ‘70 when I was just a Boy …. On an RD - 350 🎉 This was the BEST Explanation on cornering that I’ve encountered to date ! Bravo 🙌 Brian 🇺🇸
I know I’m Old - School …… But for All - Day Motorcycle Splendor ……. You can NOT Beat …… a UJM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rode that bike EVERYWHERE ……….. Never got numb hands and pumped arms, nor GSX - R Leg Paralysis !!!!!!!!! The Industry designers need to use all that fancy “ tech, “ and place it in a Rideable COMFORTABLE Motorcycle 🏍️ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Rider Position should NOT dictate how LONG & FAR I ride …………… I am the “ Master “ of My Bike 🏍️ ……….. Wake Up Design Engineers 👨💻 Peace ☮️
Canyon Carving you are definitely right . I always took the " Orthodox " approach around Town though . 30 year rider . NO broken bones . Brake TO the Turn , tip in , neutral roll through the direction turn , and then take stock BEFORE nailing it again .
This video demonstrates why proper testing of US motorcyclists is crucial to prevent road deaths and injuries. I recommend your viewers to buy a copy of “Motorcycle Roadcraft”, published by the Crown Stationery Office. This is the manual for UK Police riders and explains the principles which they are taught by. Around 15 years ago, a British bike magazine put an amateur track day enthusiast on his Gixxer, a professional racer on his British Superbike race bike, against a British bike cop on his BMW R1150RT (long time ago). The cop posted lap times just under a second slower than the pro racer, and 4-5 seconds faster than the amateur. If you watch a British bike cop, they’re very smooth in everything they do.
@@Wolfeononewheel I just did! What are you going to do: cry about it or go and play with your guns? Or I know, end up in a heap on a road somewhere. Don’t worry about wearing a helmet, you need protection on your arse, since there’s nothing in your head to protect! (I had to explain that for you, sorry!)
You should elaborate a bit on front brake in turns. The initial feedback of the bike on front brake is to run wide. After you release the preassure you can increase the turn and lean radius. And this s something that happens in fractions of a second. A beginner can be surprised by this and end up running wide.
Swiss mountain rider here. Close to 100,000 km of twisties and passes in all weather (except snow). I really like your description of line choice. We have learned and practiced both in my annual (voluntary) safety courses, but I prefer ‚wide’ for all the reasons you mention unless I’m worried about people cutting the (blind) corner … ahem, Italians. Everyone is consumed with entry and exit speeds, but you have to be able to stop in the distance you can SEE. Everything is else in a discussion ‚speed’ is secondary and I prefer light trail braking because I like the control you get, and the tip-in-help from releasing the brakes the final amount. No Swiss rider thinks about “apex”. It’s not even in our vocabulary off a track! And life-or-death hairpins are our morning commute and the quickest way to the gas station. I think people should talk more about counter-steering and “push more left, go more left”. But it seems like you can start a fight just by mentioning it with Americans. Not with Alpine riders - well, living ones at least.
Oh, I also wanted to say that we’re taught to give a … translating poorly in my head … “control/safety glance” (?) before initiating the turn to make sure there is not an RV taking both lanes in order to fit through the switchback, which happens a lot on tight alpine passes.
I wish I'd seen this years ago when I was a biker. I was always slow in turns and the windy roads, mostly out of lack of confidence to lean. Watching this video makes me miss biking. Stay safe!
Hands down the best motorcycle channel I watch. Just got an R3 and all the tips have made me so much more confident tackling those Socal canyons. As an engineering student I love the heavy physics base you use to justify yourself.
There are a couple of things to be conscious of with regards to trail braking. Firstly, loading up the front tyre means that you are removing load from the rear tyre. The rear tyre is usually the wider and, as a consequence, the one of the two tyres with more traction. Do you really want to be transferring load from that tyre? The rear tyre also plays a significant role in turning a bike. Secondly, available traction. A tyre only has so much traction available. You can use that traction to brake, accelerate and to turn. You can't do all three at a time, but you can at least balance braking with turning and accelerating with turning. Keep in mind that the more you turn, the less you can brake, and the more you brake, the less you can turn. Something has to give, one way or another. Which are you prepared to sacrifice? Yes, compressing the front end tightens up the steering angle, that's a given. You will turn "faster". But at some point, you're compromising cornering traction and braking traction. Beware. Trail braking has its place, and you should learn it. Personally, on the street, I don't see exit speed and the line through the apex as "that place" or trail braking as a better way to achieve that end. We're not Valentino Rossi or Mark Marquez. I beg to differ with the analysis in this video that the bikes going through that turn were in anyway affected by not trail braking. Those tight lines with no view to the apex were just that. Any of those bikes could have kept a far wider line until seeing the apex whether trail braking or not. That was all about road craft and nothing about technique. Trail braking is a very good tool to have in the kit for when you "overcook" the corner. It's a safety thing. Slowing and turning concurrently is a skill that you're going to need, one day. But there is nought wrong with riding a bike through a turn with a loaded up back tyre. In fact, it's probably safer. By the way. I learned how to trail brake on an old 250 Honda, in first gear, in a car park. Top tip. Wear gear (you'll need it). Remove rear indicators or have spares. Have spare brake clutch and shift levers (you'll need those, too). You'll know that you're getting the hang of it when the peg's just about or is touching down as you come to a dead stop. Don't practice this on a heavy bike unless you have really good knees and a really good back. Practice it on an expensive bike if you can afford to. Most can't, be realistic.
You don’t fully understand grip. Grip comes from two things. Mechanical grip and pressure. While a bigger tire may be capable of more grip, that doesn’t mean it always has more grip. That ignores pressure. Or in simpler terms. Weight. A loaded tire has more grip than an unloaded tire. We don’t steer with the rear tire. We steer with the front. We want pressure on the tire we are using. In other words we load the tire before we use the tire. It’s the exact same thing with acceleration. We roll on the throttle to allow weight to shift to the rear so that we can accelerate. If we just snap throttle on, the rear tire will spin, despite being bigger. Trial braking is not stabbing the brakes at lean, which based on your 250 story, may be your misunderstanding. Grabbing brakes at lean is “oh shit braking”. Trail braking is simply “trailing off the brake past corner tip in, decreasing pressure as lean increases”.
There's a lot speaking for trailbraking, but advocating this for noobs (or anyone) is nigh on criminal if you ask me. Proper useful trailbraking requires very fine control of the frontbrake. And that's definitely not for noobs or other unskilled riders
Yes, grip does come from both mechanical grip and pressure. All things being equal, the greater the contact with the road surface, the more mechanical grip that there is available. Tyres deform around imperfections in the road's surface creating this mechanical grip. Pressure must be applied to the tyre for this to occur. The more pressure, the more mechanical traction. The wider the tyre is, the more mechanical traction it has that can be exploited. You just have to apply pressure. No, we don't initiate a turn with the rear tyre. But once the turn is initiated, the rear tyre plays a large role in maintaining stability and traction throughout the turn and it is critical in maintaining the turning radius. The tyre's profile is designed in such a way to help achieve this. And that is a key thing to remember when explaining trail braking. One of the reasons that we trail off the brakes as we tip in is to take advantage of the available mechanical grip on the rear tyre. It also balances forward inertial forces as well as downward inertial forces. The physics are incredibly complex, and some aspects are still unknown. We don't know why wheels act the way they do at given angles of lean with given amounts of forces applied, they just do. If you've ever played with disc like objects, a tyre maybe, on a level surface, you learn very quickly just how many variables there are in its behaviour, given different inputs. No, trail braking is not stabbing the breaks at a lean. That's called a scary moment, or an accident! I certainly did not suggest this in my original post. Implicit, however, in my original post was that this is a skill that should be taught and learned OFF public roads and at LOW speeds. Aside from the various environmental factors that come into play on public roads such as debris, road imperfections and traffic, this is not a skill to be learned at speed. If you are hoping to achieve anything close to your full potential (that will vary greatly between different riders), start off slow and work your way up. If you haven't met the limits going slowly, you certainly wont meet them at speed, and if you do, may God be with you, 'cause it's going to hurt. Also implicit in my original post is that in the context of road riding, this should be taught from a perspective of safety, not speed. I would also suggest that using trail braking as a tool to negotiate an unknown blind corner is far from best practice. The last thing that you need is to find a patch of gravel that you couldn't see while banked over with the front brake applied! Slow, lean, roll before the corner. Trail braking is not some sort of magical tool that should be used to find "the right line". And note the difference between road lines and race lines. It's not always about the exit, on the road. "The road to a good apex is lined with gravel", an instructor once said to me. I should have listened. That was the end of the old Honda, and nearly me. Trail braking on the road should be viewed as a tool of last resort. Once you've "mastered" it, at low speeds, you can practice on the road. But make sure you know the road and you can see what's coming. Trail braking through a blind corner...? let's hope you never find out. @@CanyonChasers
@@davidbrayshaw3529 I pretty much agree. Moreover.... we can't ride track without trailbraking, but we surely can ride public roads without it. As a track instructor, I take issue with CC and MJ (and others) for introducing track riding techniques to the public roads.
Thank you for this priceless video lesson! Only thing I want to mention is that the line selection in any curve on a two way road is so much dependable on incoming traffic. Well, at least in my country, where drivers constantly cut the corners (even blind ones). So even in cases when staying on the outside of a corner gives you better vision for the exit, I really prefer to slow down and run on the inside, instead of risking a direct hit with an idiot.
the thing about late turn-in is not only to avoid crossing the lines on corner exit or getting the maximum braking distance, it's to get the maximum possible view distance into any blind corner. When you're at the inside of a truly blind turn, near the corner apex, with near vertical rocks on your right, you have a viewing distance of perhaps 10-20 meters, or yards if you're metrically handicapped. At any non-grandma speed, this means: You hit things before having the chance to even react to their presence. If at the same spot you drive just half a lane further to the left, you have a viewing distance of like 30-50 meters (or yards) on a reasonably curved curve. That alone should tell you: Stay outside for as long as you can (while not hitting oncoming traffic). The road isn't a race track where some observant marshall will raise a flag to indicate debris or spilled oil. In just 10 years of riding in the european Alps, I have seen just about everything from rockfall to trees to half a truckload falling onto the road, there were senseless tourists doing turns in the WORST spots, lost tarps, ripped out snow markers, and obviously all the wildlife you can imagine would have a fieldday, all trying to have a go into your front wheel for the weeeey! sensation (which won't feel that way to the actual rider). If you can see them a bit earlier, chances are you won't hit them. The lesson is: Stay outside for as long as you can (while not hitting oncoming traffic).
@@literal_lee what do you mean? I’ve always been critical of the man when I felt it appropriate and appreciative of any good content he produces when appropriate. Contrary to his beliefs as espoused after his supposed “social experiment” his viewers don’t owe him any deference when it comes to calling out his BS just because there’s been x # of videos we have liked/appreciated. You’ll have to forgive me if we have interacted before, it’s not ringing a bell at the moment and I’m stuck on the couch with a fever and Covid so for all I know I’m hallucinating and this entire exchange isn’t happening.
@@Fee.1 We have interacted before and I have accused you of being a fanboy. Thanks for explaining your opinion on the dude and please accept my apologies for calling you 'fanboy'. Personally I despise his ego and hubris and don't regard him the great rider he portrays to be. Get well soon, brother. 💪🏻
Thanks for another inspirational instruction video. Two questions. 1. Why only use the front brake in the corner? Some say using both brakes gives the bike more stability. 2. Applying the front brake puts more load on the front tyre and hence provides more grip. But now the back tyre is left with less load and less grip. Why would that not matter?
Great question! We're not ONLY using the front brake, but thats where our focus is. the rear brake does help (a little) but the front brake just works so much better. Most rider mistakingly put way too much effort/thought/faith into the rear brake. The rear brake is more about stability, less about slowing. Second, we need weight over the tire we are using. In simple terms; Grip comes from weight. When we are slowing, we need weight/grip over the front trie. Conversely, when accelerating, we need weight/grip over the rear tire. We don't really need a lot of grip/weight over the rear wheel when we are braking, because the rear tire isn't working that hard. In extreme cases, the rear wheel may be completely off the ground. Now think about acceleration, right. Wheelies. (weee!) This is why I talk so much about the first and last five percent of a control in other videos. The first five percent of how we squeeze the brake is critical because it allows time for the weight to shift to that front tire. The last five percent is important to keep the front tire from unloading. Same with the throttle. Whack the throttle and the rear tire will spin. Sneak the throttle on, weight moves to the rear and loads the rear tire. Does that help?
All I can say is this the faster I ride the better I am because I like to live !! The slower I ride the worst I get and to have those 4 wheel morons on my ass makes me very very very nervouse So I just go as fast as I can. At the age of 70 I must admit I have been lucky Or have I ?? Some learn to ride others just ride I am not sure which is best but all I know is that common sense always comes first... There are those that can learn to be good riders and then there are simply good riders I honestly wish I were a natural but sadly not I live in the middle but to try and teach someone to ride in my humble opinion is an impossible task YOU HAVE IT OR YOU DON'T but you can still enjoy riding as long as you use common sense and don't try to keep up with the fast lads and lasses !!!!!!!!!!! I know I have contradicted my self to a point but these so called educational vids make me smile Get out there and practice and then practice again if you are a natural just ride and enjoy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a load of toad, maintain speed, look through the bend, trust your judgement , be brave and use opposite steer, feel the line. As you exit your chosen apex, use throttle and go for it...
Who's scared in corners? Beginners? For how long? If you're scared but somehow allowed to ride on public road, stop immediately and find another hobby, thanks, we have enough dangers on the road.
My single speed mountain bike only has a front brake, so traction, weight transfer, even trail braking, just seems like the natural way to get things done. On a motorcycle it's just amplified, and with greater consequences for any mistakes! Great video!
This was so simply put without confusing theory that it was very digestible, and a video I will watch over and over. Many thanks, from someone who still gets freaked in the occasional curve.
First, thank you for another helpful video. I like that you get right to the point and combine your instruction with real-world examples and diagrams. I do have a set of related questions, though. Should engine braking be part of trail braking? Does engine braking also compress the front end? Seems like any slowing down would, no? I get that the front brake transfers the center of gravity forward, compressing the forks and increasing traction up front. But, in many of the corners I approach, I don't use the brakes at all. Instead, I roll off the throttle slightly and let engine braking slow me down. Maybe that's a bad habit. At the track (four track days), the instructors taught us to stay on the throttle (perhaps even accelerate) until we started braking. In other words, no engine braking. The right hand is either accelerating, holding steady, or braking. Maybe that's overkill on the road, and engine braking is fine on the road. I really don't know and would love your input. Thank You.
It’s not necessarily a bad habit, but relying on engine braking alone is just less precise and not repeatable. Like, if you get it wrong, do you add more coast? Try this instead and see what you think. Try riding a gear or so higher so you have to rely on your brake more. When we coast we are giving up control of our suspension, our contact patch, our giving up some control over our radius. On some places that may be totally fine, but I rather hang onto that control.
The most important cornering tip that has always served me well is to always enter a corner at a slower speed than you think that you and your bike are capable of, due to unknown factors such as road conditions, tarmac grip, oncoming traffic, etc. Slower entry speed means more time to react to any unforeseen issue
I always focus on vanishing points, vanishing points are key to getting around a corner safe and smooth, it allows for enough time to react to anything that is to come and allows to ride lines that keep you in a safe road position. Mixing this with slight rear braking has allowed me to be more confident as well as smoother and faster in cornering 😎👍💯
If by compression braking you mean "dragging the brake while maintaining throttle through a corner" - as has been popularized recently. The answer is absolutely no. That concept is exceedingly risky and based entirely on one guys misunderstanding that they published into a book. You can get away with it when we are going slow and we have excellent grip - but it quicly falls apart when the speeds come up or the grip comes down. It effectively puts the bike into a state of unbalance where it doesn't want to slow down and it doesn't want to turn. There are very few hard and fast rules in motorcycling - but one of them is we never, never, ever overlap the front brake and the throttle. Despite what other youtube channels or programs advocate for. There are situations where we can overlap rear brake and thottle, but those situations are pretty rare and not nearly as applicable on modern motorcycles with traction control, etc.
This morning I rode a fairly familiar road with a number of blind corners and decreasing radii. Being comfortable on the front brake, and especially being comfortable putting more pressure on the front brake while in a turn when needed, has made a world of difference from when I first started riding and stuck to the MSF's method of braking.
Yeah the MSF assumes perfect conditions 95% of the time, everyone needs to learn how to brake while in corners or you're gonna end up in a situation when you need a skill you never trained
Superb video thanks, cornering is my favourite choice of road. Been riding 47+ years predominantly harley low rider and more recently triumph 1200xe scrambler, both bikes handle beautifully whilst staying on the power , judging the degree of curvature at reasonable speed, I don’t wanna die !!!
Great idea to keep front brake on if no dirt in corners. Try that in Canada where they cover roads with sand all winter and corners have sand all summer. Will go down and FAST
When we coach riders through their advanced riding course in the UK's IAM, trail braking is not included. You do not need to trail brake to get corners "right" and have great enjoyment. Take in the Information regarding the corner (limit point of view, clues to its angle from poles or trees or buildings etc), adjust the Position for safety, stability and vision, adjust the Speed so you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road (the limit point of vision), get into the Gear appropriate (responsive) for your new speed ... all this before the corner. Now Accelerate (positively or negatively) using the throttle, according to what the limit point of view is doing. If it's getting closer, use negative acceleration (roll off), if it's constant stay neutral, if it's moving away chase it! Rolling off the throttle has the same effect of loading the front suspension and is much easier for most riders to control.
Its really a shame the UK is still teaching that. We have the same problem here. You can get away with some of that on uphill or flat corners, or when you have good visibility and good grip, but do that in steep downhill stuff. All the "negative" throttle in the world and you'll still be going way too fast to make the corner. And I should do another video clip where we point the camera at the forks and show how rolling off the throttle barely compresses the forks, the same way the rear brake barely compresses the forks.
@@CanyonChasers not a shame at all. The Roadcraft system has been very good in getting riders to a more advanced and safe level, after passing the basic motorcycle license test. Those who want to go on beyond what organisations like the IAM and RoSPA teach, to learn and practice trail braking can do so if they wish. But this year I've been to Wales and France, plenty of downhill corners and hairpins, and had no problem with this technique. For road riding, setting the Speed first, then the right Gear, before tackling the corner, is perfectly fine.
Unfortunately, Roadcraft is cutting edge 1970s riding technique. We have the same problem here. We know more now. We have a better understanding of physics, etc. Motorcycle design has evolved. Sure, you can get away with it, but there are better, safer ways that give you substantially more control of your motorcycle. I work with Roadcraft grad's all the time and they all come out the other side falling even more in love with riding saying "whoah! I had no idea I could be in this much control!" Many of them end up extremely frustrated that Roadcraft refuses to even consider modern riding theory.
Great video and great advice! I learned most of that when I was riding dirt bikes when I was young (10-18). The most important thing you must learn when you ride dirt bikes, is that you have to learn to "read the trail." Which requires looking as far ahead and around (peripheral) you as you can see and observing everything that could possibly be a problem and being competent to react and respond to the variances and nuances of the trail to get you and your bike through that trail. And as you stated, you can't always see what's on the other side of that corner or just over that knoll, so "it's like trying to predict the future!" And whenever you have to "try and predict" what's ahead, the best advice is to do so "Cautiously." Basically, the same "rules" apply on pavement. You just have to adapt to the paved "trail" rather than the dirt "trail." And your bike and tires will react differently on pavement than they do on dirt! I've been riding motorcycles for 58 years, from dirt bikes to sport bikes to cruisers and touring machines, and I still ride all year long. But I am more of a "fair weather rider" now. LOL. I'm too old to like getting soaked and freezing and then have to go home and clean my bike again! But, I've learned to control my throttle and hold the left grip with my thumb and index finger, and I keep my pinky, ring finger & middle finger of both hands on the front brake and clutch levers whenever I'm riding in "traffic" or riding the "twisty turnies" (i.e., the Blue Ridge Parkway, etc.) and I keep both of my feet close to the rear brake and shifter pedals, that way I'm always ready to make a maneuver when the "trail" throws something unique at me!
Thanks a lot. Just I would to say, sommetines I where happy taking the "green line" as in a blind corner in an narrow road, it prevent me to crash on a car completely on my line. and of course, I wait later to accelerate. And now, I take the "blue line" only if the road is quite large enough. Of course, it's not a critiscim of your advice, as other cars has to stay on his side, but we know that's only in our dreams. Thanks again
This is exactly right. Aside from where the green bike is pointed when going back to the gas; which is bad. The blue is the best line in good conditions, but we have to be adaptable riders. On tight, jenky, blind corners, I'll be on that green line as well. Only I'll get direction before going back to the gas. ✌️
The smooth decrease in front braking pressure while corning has saved me before, too. But, if you're using that technique, it will sometimes save your bacon, but it almost always means that you did something wrong. Either you overshot the corner (too fast on entry) or you failed to see a change in the turn radius (in the middle of the turn) , or you were in too high of gear, (entering the turn), or you were just too drunk to be riding a motorcycle !
The way to know is verge chacing, if the verges are catching up with you, you're going too fast, if they are running away from you, you're going too slow. Also yeah you may have more grip, but the more grip you have, the more the bike wants to stand upright, which means less ability to lean if you need to.
I agree with most of what you have to say (99%?) . On roads with tight , blind corners, on coming cars tend to blow the YY . My technic has been to go the center line early ( if no oncoming traffic is visible) on right handers giving me the best view , early apex, keep my speed where I can make an adjustment if necessary ( bicyclist appears suddenly just at apex ) and wait on picking up the throttle until I know I have my direction and clear road. On left handers I will set my speed, late apex (wait) until the corner opens up and I have a clear exit. This will keep me out of the danger zone of that oncoming Ricky racer ( car or bike) that will cut ( blow) the corner when the road is basically a repeating s turn. Best, DT
Great tip. Tried it for a couple days already and gives me a ton more confidence. Can actually sense more stability because of more traction in the front tire. Felt less stress even on wet roads. Thanks. 😅
wide, late entry, trailbraking till I see the exit and that it's safe to accelerate. Never had problems since adopted that along with Roadcraft's idea that "you always should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear..." Great video for novice riders to encourage them to look for the vantage point and trailbrake
Carrying some acceleration in the corner means more friction, therefore more grip. Squaring off turns may give you better exit speed, but running that wide line also leaves less room for error mid turn. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but it's very defensive. Starting wide, closing the radius through and exiting wide is very effective and safe as well, with an experienced rider. This is a very safe technique for inexperienced riders and also unfamiliar roads, but criticizing every rider that took that downhill turn the more conventional way is a bit short sighted in my book. Still pretty solid info, but not necessarily the best/only approach.
You are absolutely right that it's not the only approach, but getting direction is more important than anything else. Those riders: they were crossing the center line and running into the oncoming lane - if a police officer was there, it would be a wreckless driving ticket. If an RV would have been coming up the hill, it would have been a collision. Single vehicle accidents of riders running wide in corners is one of the top reasons motorcyclists are dying. The insistance that we need acceleration in corners for friction/grip is misleading and comes at the cost of requiring more and more lean throught the corner. We get grip from the front brake as well, with less risk of running wide and into the oncoming lane.
Thank you for this video! I‘ve been riding for years like I was taught in Germany (Break before tip in, neutral throttle through the turn) and with all the tight and blind corners in southern Germany and the alps I very often had corners that I felt I took too slow and conservatively or I was too fast for my own comfort. With the trail braking, I always feel in control of the turn and since then had no turn were I felt my speed was wrong through the turn. A real game changer!
I learned the value of trail braking through your videos and it has been reinforced ever since then with my daily riding. I finally realized I am applying the brakes, or slowly letting go of the brakes, for the duration of a curve. So, unless I'm going very slow speeds, if I'm in a curve, that means I'm interacting with my brakes, either applying them as I am entering the curve, or slowly letting go of them as I'm exiting, transitioning to throttle only when I'm done with the curve. And, of course, I am done with the curve the moment my tire is pointing in the direction I want to go, for the simple reason that when I hit the throttle, my bike is going to go straight in whatever direction that tire is pointing. Not complicated. I became 100% comfortable with this when I learned I can enter a curve and slow all the way down to a full stop in the middle of the curve, but only IF I am already trail braking. If you have to come to an sudden stop in the middle of a curve and you're not already trail braking, you're going to have to do an abrupt stop that's going to cause an immediate accident. Trail braking is my ONLY insurance I can come to a quick, full, stop in the very middle of a curve if I have to. There is no other alternative because . . . physics. curve = brakes. For the duration. Period I need to be this explicit about it to unlearn the Motorcycle Safety Foundation nonsense of slow, look, press and roll. It is only minor hyperbole to argue they are terrorists, literally profiting off the predictable death of motorcycle riders who are still learning this stupid technique, long disavowed, from the seventies, because it's too complicated to change the curricula that has been embedded in laws and regulations in so many States, and because they would have to change all of their literature and webspace, and retrain all of their trainers. But in most States, you have to pass their curricula, and demonstrate the proficiency in that outdated technique before you are given a motorcycle endorsement on your license. And sadly the only proper thing is to immediately untrain yourself from that technique after you pass the course. Honestly, F them. Literal murderers profiting to protect their functional monopoly as gatekeepers of the motorcycle riding community.
Great Video! Add late turn in and these techniques WORK on every Bike I've owned. Honda Silverwing Maxi Scooter, Yamaha FJR1300, Yamaha Roadstar Warrior (650 lb. V-Twin). To have these riding techniques burned into your riding brain, it elevates the joy of this Sport to a whole new level! Besides, when I corner correctly, it's the closest I can come to flying a plane with just 2 little rubber patches on the ground. Get that brake light on!
The other day I took a corner too hot for the first time, and it scared the shit out of me. One minute I was going into the turn, the next the bike was headed for the shoulder. I’m still not sure how it happened, but this video showed up in my feed and really helped to clear things up. Thank you.
I love the way you explain things. In France they teach you to follow a similar line in corners, however, they don't talk much about using the front brake for a better grip.
Thank you so much! Someone told me that in France they call "chicken strips" bandages de peur. I always thought that was a hilarious translation (assuming it's correct).
I bought my first bike in 2000, took a break from bikes and rode a trike for 10 years, 3 years ago I got back on two wheels. I was never very good but after discovering your channel I've never been more confident on the road, and using instruction from your lessons has made me so much better than I was before
Hey. So much to like about this video, and a consistent message with Moto Jitsu's 'it's all about the exit' mantra (just a little more detail re entry braking). Apart from those who overcook entry speed, many come undone by entering more slowly than they realise they can, then getting on the gas too early to try and make up for it (just as your blue and yellow bikes showed!). You just need to have the patience to wait before getting on the gas on exit, and then work on lifting entry speed to something you're comfortable with. And like the drum back beat. Brett Tkacs for the road!! 🙂Cheers.
I have had 7 motorcycles. Wet surfaces with oil, gravel, tree droppings, shortened sight ahead, and your engine locking up @ the perfect time, often has deadly results.
Double the advertised safe speed and add 20 percent if you have a good handling bike on good tires and you know how to ride. If not, the advertised safe speed should be observed. If the road is wet or cold use your own judgement if you just have to ride. Throttle up on tip in but don’t get too greedy with the throttle until you get a feel for traction and direction. Drifting on a motorcycle is fun unless it’s unintentional and then it can be exciting to say the least.
I race motorcycles every weekend so I know how to take corners but I still love to watch technique videos! Btw for those wondering this video was right on the money!
Trail braking trail braking trail braking! This and Bret Tkacs' latest video on trail braking are great refreshers for sport touring and ADV riders who enjoy some lean angle in the curves.
This has been the absolute BEST taking corners video explanation, demonstration yet! I’m getting ready for my first time in Sturges with my husband on my own bike! So excited! But don’t have a lot of this type terrain to practice on first. Will be checking your video library to see what else you might have to help me get ready! Thank you so much! These are fantastic and might just save some lives out there ❤
Very clear and helpful because you're specific and relevant--you say exactly what your riding fellows need to know. I'm a high school English teacher, and I value good, clear instruction. Thanks.
If your scared in the turns, you shouldn't be on a motorcycle. Man up.
If someone is fearless that means the they doesn't fully understand the risks they are facing. In the motorcycle world, if someone calls you fearless, it's an insult.
Precaution is a good trait to have for a biker you have old bikers and bold bikers but no old bold bikers remember that
You obviously ride very slow
South Park was right about you
If my scared in the turns, what?
Cornering is a dark art. Somedays I am in the groove, other days I'm all crossed up. Thank you, I'm saving this to watch and watch again.
I’m exactly the same! I commute daily on the bike so I get loads of riding time in BUT same as you some days I’m properly got it together other days it all goes to shit
Agreed. Some days the mojo is strong, other days not so much.
I’m not trying to sound like a smart ass but it’s not a “dark art” it’s a matter of applying a few simple golden rules and really thinking about them while riding. Many riders I’ve met are often thinking about numerous other things whilst riding, concentrating on what we are actually doing when riding is without a doubt a life saver! X
Cheers 👏😀👍🏍
Just remember practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Take it slow and speed up until you cross up. Stick with it.
It doesn’t have to be a dark art. Some try to make it out to be this super complicated process. I feel like when we understand the tools and being adaptable riders, not riding by rote sequence, it starts to make a lot more sense.
Just wanted to acknowledge the fact that you have been consistently putting out quality content for years. I appreciate you and your channel
I appreciate that!
trail breaking...?
So thankful for your clear instruction. I’m back to riding after 45 years away from it. Your clear concise pointers are a life saver, literally! Thanks.
Awesome!
Me too. Back after 3 decades away. Picked up a new DesertX ADV bike three months ago, have 3.6k miles on it already.
Be safe out there. 👍
7:13 I learned this technique driving karts when I was a teenager. Squaring (late apex) larger turns reduced lap times.
Clear instructions? They were not at all clear to me.
take a riders safety course if you need to relearn this stuff. These videos are not the way to learn it.
@@curtisalan4402
Awesome. I almost purchased a V-Rod around a decade ago.
I took the Texas MSF course even though I rode decades ago. This is always a good idea when getting back to riding motorcycles.
I concur with this 100%. Infact, after 30 yrs on and off, i found a way to simplify this concept even further. I simply want as much of my lane in my vision as possible at any given moment. If the corner is too tight for me to see safely far enough ahead for the speed i am carrying, i stick to the outside as much as i can, giving myself the maximum available vision of the road ahead and therefore easily being able to chose my trajectory through the curve.
Once the concept of wanting to see down your lane as far ahead as possible clicks, it becomes instantly natural and almost automaticaly, you will be taking the corner correctly.
Having said this, even after decades riding i feel i can still learn from videos such as these which i find very interesting and insightful. Deffinately subscribing, thanks for a great video 👍👍👍
Yes!! Maybe I’m a control freak but I want to use the techniques that give me the most possible control.
Well said! So simple, really.
Thanks - this is a good way to look at it. To want to have as much of the lane in your vision as possible, so you can choose the trajectory through the curve. So 2% front braking and looking far ahead into the curve - these are two techniques I will try when I hit those twisties again this weekend!
Well put.
Thank you for endorsing this video. Otherwise I would have thought it was just a bunch of hooey.
My riding buddy and I were out earlier this year. We've been riding together for about 15 years and have taken California Superbike School together. He had a tough go of it that day and said he just felt nervous and apprehensive once we upped the pace a little bit. The next time out he was 100% better. He said he got lazy and was not looking out far enough ahead and was visually following my tail instead of looking ahead of me. Sooooo much of riding is where you look. Thank you so much for your content. It's always spot on. Keep em' coming. I'd love to go riding with you some day!
We are not always at our best! I have learned to respect when I am feeling apprehensive ( maybe I am tired or have too much on my mind ) and feeling less skillful. Such moments are just less fun.
Sometimes I also ride in a group & I find it to be true that one can get somewhat lazy & tend to watch the bike in front of them instead of looking ahead at the road & it makes a world of difference.
Dave you are without a doubt the best instructor I’ve ever heard. No contradictions, ever. Reiterating with fresh language the same point several times, you reenforce the concept and actions required to achieve the clearly stated goal: get through the corner smoothly, efficiently, joyfully… ride the ride, get home, ride again.
Thanks man, I don’t think there’s one video you’ve made that I only watched/listened to once. I watch them repeatedly, and hear your voice as I train myself on the road to be a better rider. Each curve is an opportunity for success and joy. Onward!
If you think this is wrong and you ride. You don't trust your front brake it can be the only reason. Go to an open parking lot and practice slowly pushing that front brake till you trust yourself. It will change everything in your riding and confidence it did for me. 63 and still learning.
well explained, I have been downshifting and trail braking into corners for years, I ride in Mallorca Spain, where there are many tight downhill hairpins, works every time, Ducati Monster rider! 65, and😅 still upright...
You must be doing alot right, including living in paradise ! ( 67 here in the smoky mountains of NC USA ) Downshifting seems to help plant the the bike where I want it because I am less likely to fall away from the chosen geometry should I lose too much speed. Fascinating topic.
Majorca's great for a riding bikes🔥 many many great corners
I'm really grateful for your videos man, I just won second place in slalom riding (weaving around cones) the other day, followed all your instructions, and was able to secure second place. I can't believe how much my riding has improved - after watching and learning from your videos. I can't thank you enough for your amazing content. I am always looking forward to your next upload. You are the most amazing riding instructor.
That is awesome!
Sometimes oncoming cars will turn into your lane. So hugging the center is actually risky. Especially in developing countries in South East Asia where cars don't care about respecting the center/median line
Forget developing countries.. I live in an Australian hinterland area and I can tell you that cars on the wrong or wrong-ish side of the road is common. Expected. Anyone that tries to apply racing line theory on real life mountain roads is asking for trouble.
Facts. Here in SE EU also happens frequently. People will brake lanes in blind corners crazy often.
This is 💯 fact
I met a woman on a scooter on a blind corner heading for apex on wrong side of thecroad tmthe other day. Blind hairpin on mountain forest road that is askfor little more fun I met a dude and 2 friend the same (one bike) She breaked and I went inside her but the other dude ended up inside me and me accelerating and going wider to moss them. I was aware of chance or goats or people or a car parkon the bend etc. Bus overtaking a bus often leaves them on the side and you needing to be beamed up 😂. India is difficult 😢.
Below 45° of lean angle, the answer is always 'learn to lean more'.
Went to a safety and lean angle training, and the instructor told us pretty clearly: For everyone that's not a MotoGp racer knowing every inch of tarmac ahead of him, the fastest way to corner is to overcut the corner - stay straight for longer into the corner, then lean while shifting your head to focus the exit or a point as far forwards as you can see with your eyes, reach a higher lean angle for a shorter period of time and accelerate as soon as you see the way forwards out of the corner. Because for people not living on the edge, the bike is fastest when it's not leaning.
With this knowledge, my little 600 CBR could easily stay with all those 1250 GS in the Alps during my trip there two weeks ago, and at the same time my new tires lost all their chicken strips during those 2400 kms as you automatically lean further in when you're turning into the corner later than you are used to. You lean further for a shorter amount of time, which allows you to brake later and accelerate earlier.
Seriously, if you participate in such a training, you begin to see how bad most folks are riding ( your previous self included ), and by taking the advice to heart I had an absolute blast in the twisties of the Alps ( which are much, much, much twistier than US stuff ) although I'm a relative beginner with around only two years of experience.
That shot of the suspension while trail braking is the best way to explain the concept, TBH. Well done.
Awesome. And to think I almost took it out.
@@CanyonChasers Glad you didn't! Trail braking is one of those concepts where it's better to demonstrate the effect than explaining the technique.
@@nathanytWithout braking, the suspension will also compress when cornering, due to lean angle and centripetal forces. So... what was demonstrated exactly ?
@@literal_lee We want to control that compression so we can maintain constant grip. Watch the video again, it shows why.
@@nathanyt No need, I understand the concept of trailbraking very well, thank you.
After doing a heap of track days getting ready for racing, that changed everything about how I ride around corners in the hills and canyons.
This video is insanely well done ... Technique explained clearly and on point for road use, editing is ace!
Just when I thought that _yet another video on cornering_ would be boring! This guy always produces a masterclass.
I learned in driving school, that breaking in a corner is not a good idea because you lose grip. It was explained to me like this:
There is a certain force a tire can handle in all directions. If you apply break a bit of the grip is "bound" to the breaking, the rest remains with stearing/leaning left or right.
If you don't apply breaking you have more grip for going left or right.
Is that wrong? From a physics standpoint this argument made perfect sense so me...
If you are consistently using 100% of your traction in the corners you're going to get very tired of crashing very quickly. You are right in recognizing that there is a finite amount of grip available from a tire, based on the amount of pressure that the tire is being pressed into the road surface. Trail braking transfers some of the vehicle weight to the front tire, increasing the traction available from your front tire. When trail braking is being discussed, the amount of braking force that we are talking about is a very, very small amount of braking. Usually not much more front brake pressure than is required to light up the brake light. Nobody is say that you are going to give the front brake lever a big, rapid squeeze. Trail braking is usually done with 1 very gentle finger.
Your original trail braking video is what really allowed me to understand and actively use trail braking. It's probably the single most important skill I've learned and it has saved my bacon on more than one occasion. I'm shocked at the number of riders I've met that are reluctant to try it. The usual response is "That's a technique that's applicable only on the race track!" and "That's not what they taught me in the MSF course!". I even bought the Champ U course as a gift for a relative who rides a Ducati Monster and he still refuses to accept it. I suspect he never watched the course. I mean if you don't believe those guys, who are you going to believe. :)Thanks for sharing.
If you are trail braking on a road, you are going too fast.
Don’t do this.
It’s bad
Something that has helped me with getting the bike turned towards the exit is using the painted lines (when available) as my "looking where you want to go" guidance. For example, on a right hand corner I'm following the center line (outside) with my eyes up until tip in. Then I turn my gaze to the fog line (inside) and follow that with my eyes. Discovering this has helped me tremendously! Everyone always says "look where you want to go" but just picking a vague point on the horizon means you're not really looking anywhere, and you don't want to pick a spot or an object because now you're target fixated PLUS once you get to that point you have to find another spot or target. Use the lines like the force.
What's a center line and what's a fog line?
In the pre learner, which is the Australian equivalent of the msf course this is taught as wide entry, close exit, with a slight drag on the brakes. It's nice to have a good in depth explanation of the function and also how to perform the manoeuvre better. Great video!
Agreed... Start out WIDE at the beginning of the bend, then twist the handlebars enough to get in TIGHT *halfway* through the turn. This way, you are successfully using ALL of the lane - WIDE and CLOSE IN. Start wide, then get in tight, and then return to the CENTRE of the lane as soon as you have left the turn and are entering the straight. Entering a tight downhill turn too fast is truly scary... and it can easily happen if you're on unfamiliar roads. Also apply a little *_rear brake_* as you are going through the turns. (ABS may help with the front brake if you have ABS.)
Great video, with clear explanations and really helpful footage of the front suspension doing its thing. I would add a few things for steep mountain roads: Be careful on tight, steep uphill turns. You can't get on the throttle too early or aggressively without losing the rear, but you also can't slow so much that you drop the bike. For long downhill sections, I borrow the trick from cycling, alternately using a bit of rear brake rather than just using the front, and also using engine braking to some extent.
Yeah, I nearly had an oopsie moment when I first encountered a really tight serpentine turn uphill, on a narrow road too so I wasn't going very quickly anyway.
For me the throttle is the big game changer. Break hard BEFORE the turn. We are (mostly) not on a race track. You should break to a good corner speed before even beginning to lean. You can control your bike with the throttle even without changing the lean angle. If you feel like the corner is narrower than expected, go off the throttle, the bike will get longer because of the breaking force of the engine which will extend the wheelbase and give you a better driving behavior of the bike. This will also reduce the curvature of your corner. If you find yourself in a situation where you come closer to the middle line, give it a little more throttle. Without changing the lean angle, the bike will increase the corner. This also applies to the exit. Hold your lean angle and increase more and more the throttle. The bike will go straighter and straighter even with the same lean angle than in the narrow corner.
Just coming off the throttle often does the same job. Slow(er) in fast(erl) out. I usually approach the corner slighty wide. It's safer and gives more options.
Often it does, but we need to be adaptable riders comfortable using the right tool at the right time. LIke steep, downhill corners or whathaveyou. ✌️
"earlier lighter longer" - 3 words, easy to remember, perfectly explains corner braking. When you're already on them ("earlier") applying a bit more for a tighter line is easy ("lighter"). Hold them till you're sure of your exit ("longer") and then...twist the wick and let 'er rip! Thanks for another outstanding video CC!
This is the way! The fastest riders use the brakes the most means "earlier, lighter, longer"
Like so many have already posted - this video was one of the most helpful that I’ve seen. Presented so simple, clear, and concise. I am 61 and have been riding for a long time, but I just learned some things here that I will be aware of today when I ride. Thanks
Getting into the proper entry position and then using Limit Point theory is much more effective.
I've watched many of your videos featuring trail breaking and can honestly say they have been the biggest contributor to riding pleasure. It has stopped many of us 'running wide' into the danger zone...Where l ride here in España we have some wonderful roads, however many are festooned with blind 'switchback bends' through wooded areas which can be quite difficult and demanding Understanding positioning and the physics involved when gentle braking has been indispensable... Thanks CanyonChacer .... Regards from España.
Oh man. I love it. Thank you for sharing. 🙏
*BINGO!*
Getting back after 20 years and I got a Adv bike, struggling with the power and size...this video really change my perspective about cornering , thank you!
Great to hear!
I came off my bike 100km late at night on a wet corner have been struggling to regain any confidence so this video was a massive help. Thanks for the great content.
Glad it helped! It’s totally okay to be nervous. Listen to it and address the source of the nervousness. That’s the only way to successfully move forward.
It can be really hard to overcome these mental demons, but the only way is to ride through them …
In the wise words of Troy Hawke, Challenges are just an opportunity to evolve….
Thank you for stating something I have been doing forever. Learning to use the front brake while cornering just came intuitively to me; as you stated the bike is so much more planted. Another thing, that I am not sure you mentioned, is that the motorcycle will go where you look. You did say never look at the front wheel and I would add it's relationship to the edge of the road. Rather, look where it is you want the bike to go. Kind of fun on a blind corner. A known blind corner works the same as any corner with no obstructions. An unknown blind corner, SLOW down and keep that front wheel planted.
couldn't agree with you more. Been practicing trial braking a lot last year and it's been an eye opener for me. Makes perfect sense, get the bike into the direction you want to go with the brakes. If only all instructors would teach this...
I totally agree!
Thank you. You have cleared a lot of things up for me . We'll explained. I'm going to re watch now, so you know it's a good one.
not sure if this can simulated in simple safety course in the parking lot :D you need an instructor teaching in a track environment :D
I watched this 100000 times. It works. Just did an 800km round trip and really used it. On any corner.
I was out exploring the Black Hills this summer and this braking technique makes running the mountain roads very enjoyable.
Aren't those roads just magnificent!
@@CanyonChasers
They sure are.
My Favorites were Iron Mountain Road and Spearfish Canyon Road.
indeed! images.canyonchasers.net/_data/i/upload/2016/09/27/20160927150156-04eabf4b-la.jpg
Downhill cornering is my pet hate. Uphill cornering isn't so bad, but I'm not the most experienced rider! Start out wide (near the painted centre lane line), then move in closer (towards the other side of the lane that you came in *wide* on) as the turn ends, and then get back to the very centre of the road as you exit onto the straight.
Went to bear tooth this summer with a group. I’ve been following and practicing your advice for two years now, and I’ve been sharing your tips with others in my group. Thanks so much for helping so many riders!
Right on! ✌️
Beartooth.
Cornering is 100% my fav thing, over big power or acceleration, it's like flying. It should feel free and fun, your machine choice is important, as is your attitude to riding. Don't listen to anyone but yourself and do what feels good, sure research stuff, but don't over think it. And be prepared to crash, because at some point you WILL crash (I have and I'm still here). Be your own person, there's a lot of BS floating out in the community, and good luck to you.
Outstanding! I love how you are so fantastic and really simplifying what otherwise can be very complex subject matter. You are always succinct and to the point. There are simply no wasted words in your presentations, and I ALWAYS come away with more knowledge that makes me a better motorcyclist as I go out and practice these things!! Great stuff!!
Wow, thank you!
100% Agreed with everything. Many folks say don’t trail brake it is not the track…… nope… DO trail brake. At the track you are trailing to maximize corner entry speed. On the road it is to make your wheelbase shorter, increasing contact patch of the front tire to turn easier and IF you need to get on the brakes because of something impeding your path on a blind corner…. well you are already on the brakes. Not using brakes in the corner is a mistake… and yes you can increase brake pressure mid corner…. But you do have to be a bit careful. Good video. Works the same on 4 wheels too btw.
YES! Exactly. Thank you!!
This technique only works in dry, clear asphalt. As someone who rides in the ice and snow, I can tell you this technique won't work in slippery conditions. Load weight into those front tyres on slippery ice, and it just increases the risk of slipping. So while its good advice for certain conditions, in other conditions it can cause more harm.
Yeah I started riding last summer and naturally trail braked, until I was turning off the highway and somebody had kicked up gravel from the shoulder into the road. Front tire went out, I went down, and now I'm trying to re-learn how to trail brake and corner confidently again (while keeping an ever-keener eye out for those fucking gravel spots! And using a lot more rear brake, they harp on the front brake too much on posters and shit)
Worth doing some off road, it teaches you a lot about counter balance cornering and front end wash out. Back brake is best in a loose corner .
To me bike is only for warm sunny days. In winter I prefer to be behind windshield with air condition turned on 😅
Im way up north in canada with 💩 roads and gravel too, i just use back brake and sometimes down shift and then back up after the apex if it is a hard corner, and lean to your line with your head a bit, but main thing is "it isnt if you go down but when you go down" no choice but to go back and conquer that fear or it will sit on your mind forever @@baronnecas2880
As a newbie rider with a full Kawa Z900 as first bike, your videos have been extremely helpful and informative to ride safely and bring more joy from canyons without being so afraid to enter the corners.
Thank you, this is public service right here 🙌🏻
Always great ride enhancing and life saving techniques shared. I never tried just engaging the *brake minimally and holding it late until I see the exit. My bike has so much engine *braking that I thought I couldn’t use trail braking. But expressed in this way I think it will work on my bike.
Always be open to learn new things.
Thanks!
Thank you for the kind donation. We don’t have to hold the brake until a specific point in the corner. We slow until we’re happy with our speed and direction. And I’d we need to, we can always go back to the brake.
Love that you’re riding a Ducati for this topic. I got into sport and naked bikes because of the Monster. The brakes were what made me switch from cruisers to sport.
Super informative video Dave. Some days my cornering works other days it's not so good but now you've given me the knowledge to make it the same every time. Thank you. Ride safe and ride well 🤓 🏍️
I love it. When we have more tools we know what we can focus on to get back into the groove.
Absolutely the best video on cornering I've ever seen! Clear, concise information without lots of guff to muddy-up the message.
You have gained a new subscriber...
Wow, thanks!
Cool aerial shots. One thing I'd love to see in the future perhaps would be live telemetry of front brake pressure through corners.
We've looked into this and it's still on the table. :)
Very cool idea. Alternately, it’s not difficult to try these ideas and see the results for yourself. Consider the possibility that helps more than a chart or graph.
@@CanyonChasersI thought the video of fork travel with various front braking strategies was awesome.
Lots of good advice! Living in the Santa Cruz mountains and commuting year round is great training, much like the tighter parts of this road but 90% blind due to the dense redwood forest. Loose gravel and unpredictable fog condensate changes from hour to hour. It's very easy to recognize the visiting flatlanders, but also very easy to develop bad habits or get complacent no matter one's experience, hence I'm grateful for this refresher. As the old saying goes: slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Smooth also gets you home alive.
Smooth is key to cornering and riding in general, for sure …
About a hundred years ago when I first started riding, someone told me, "Slow in. Fast out." and "Sometimes you have to go slow to go fast." When it comes to cornering, I have held onto those words of wisdom and applied them to how I ride on the track and off. I have taught countless people how to ride in my job and one thing I'm always sure to include are those same words.
Control and proper bike management will get you out faster and on the correct line, and that builds confidence. A confident rider is a safer rider.
Two point that stood out to me were “The measure of a good corner is if we got good direction before we accelerate” and “Corner entrance helps us get to corner exit” thanks for sharing
Love this video! Very informative. Very well edited. The views are breathtaking
Thanks for watching! And yeah, that road is spectacular! Not even the drone captured it all that well.
this summer i start riding my restored 1967 Norton Atlas, have not ridden for 25 years and when i did it was all the wrong advice. These lessons are so good thank you.
Been practicing the “brake light initiative” a lot and it made a huge difference in my riding when I went to Tennessee and NC this year. Smooth is fast!!!!
You ride the tail?
Best way to master that is walking your motorcycle while braking.
@@vpweber been up there twice this year. Up and down four or five times.
Thanks for sharing!
Cool! I rode it last year, amazing piece of road!
I’ve been riding since ‘70 when I was just a Boy …. On an RD - 350 🎉
This was the BEST Explanation on cornering that I’ve encountered to date !
Bravo 🙌
Brian
🇺🇸
Right on! Those RD's are still cool!
I know I’m Old - School ……
But for All - Day Motorcycle Splendor …….
You can NOT Beat …… a UJM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rode that bike EVERYWHERE ………..
Never got numb hands and pumped arms, nor GSX - R Leg Paralysis !!!!!!!!!
The Industry designers need to use all that fancy “ tech, “ and place it in a Rideable COMFORTABLE Motorcycle 🏍️ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Rider Position should NOT dictate how LONG & FAR I ride ……………
I am the “ Master “ of My Bike 🏍️ ………..
Wake Up Design Engineers 👨💻
Peace ☮️
Canyon Carving you are definitely right . I always took the " Orthodox " approach around Town though . 30 year rider . NO broken bones .
Brake TO the Turn , tip in , neutral roll through the direction turn , and then take stock BEFORE nailing it again .
This video demonstrates why proper testing of US motorcyclists is crucial to prevent road deaths and injuries. I recommend your viewers to buy a copy of “Motorcycle Roadcraft”, published by the Crown Stationery Office. This is the manual for UK Police riders and explains the principles which they are taught by. Around 15 years ago, a British bike magazine put an amateur track day enthusiast on his Gixxer, a professional racer on his British Superbike race bike, against a British bike cop on his BMW R1150RT (long time ago). The cop posted lap times just under a second slower than the pro racer, and 4-5 seconds faster than the amateur. If you watch a British bike cop, they’re very smooth in everything they do.
Isn't that special.
@@ppepperoni3570 spoken like a true, expert, well done. I’m glad you’re a much better rider than our UK Police Motorcyclists.
@@ppepperoni3570aren’t you special. Special needs.
No one has a right to tell me I can’t ride ever. So yeah Ill never take a motorcycle test. Chump
@@Wolfeononewheel I just did! What are you going to do: cry about it or go and play with your guns? Or I know, end up in a heap on a road somewhere. Don’t worry about wearing a helmet, you need protection on your arse, since there’s nothing in your head to protect! (I had to explain that for you, sorry!)
You should elaborate a bit on front brake in turns. The initial feedback of the bike on front brake is to run wide. After you release the preassure you can increase the turn and lean radius. And this s something that happens in fractions of a second. A beginner can be surprised by this and end up running wide.
I have about ten other videos that go into this in depth. So please, stick around and check out the many other videos in the catalog.
Swiss mountain rider here. Close to 100,000 km of twisties and passes in all weather (except snow). I really like your description of line choice. We have learned and practiced both in my annual (voluntary) safety courses, but I prefer ‚wide’ for all the reasons you mention unless I’m worried about people cutting the (blind) corner … ahem, Italians.
Everyone is consumed with entry and exit speeds, but you have to be able to stop in the distance you can SEE. Everything is else in a discussion ‚speed’ is secondary and I prefer light trail braking because I like the control you get, and the tip-in-help from releasing the brakes the final amount.
No Swiss rider thinks about “apex”. It’s not even in our vocabulary off a track! And life-or-death hairpins are our morning commute and the quickest way to the gas station.
I think people should talk more about counter-steering and “push more left, go more left”. But it seems like you can start a fight just by mentioning it with Americans. Not with Alpine riders - well, living ones at least.
Oh, I also wanted to say that we’re taught to give a … translating poorly in my head … “control/safety glance” (?) before initiating the turn to make sure there is not an RV taking both lanes in order to fit through the switchback, which happens a lot on tight alpine passes.
YES! That is soooo important!! We have the same problem with RV and campers and giant american pickup trucks taking up the entire road.
I wish I'd seen this years ago when I was a biker. I was always slow in turns and the windy roads, mostly out of lack of confidence to lean. Watching this video makes me miss biking. Stay safe!
Earlier lighter longer. Always when I’m riding Ortega Highway. Just a safer feeling it’s a different style.
And so precise!
Hands down the best motorcycle channel I watch. Just got an R3 and all the tips have made me so much more confident tackling those Socal canyons. As an engineering student I love the heavy physics base you use to justify yourself.
There are a couple of things to be conscious of with regards to trail braking. Firstly, loading up the front tyre means that you are removing load from the rear tyre. The rear tyre is usually the wider and, as a consequence, the one of the two tyres with more traction. Do you really want to be transferring load from that tyre? The rear tyre also plays a significant role in turning a bike. Secondly, available traction. A tyre only has so much traction available. You can use that traction to brake, accelerate and to turn. You can't do all three at a time, but you can at least balance braking with turning and accelerating with turning.
Keep in mind that the more you turn, the less you can brake, and the more you brake, the less you can turn. Something has to give, one way or another. Which are you prepared to sacrifice?
Yes, compressing the front end tightens up the steering angle, that's a given. You will turn "faster". But at some point, you're compromising cornering traction and braking traction. Beware.
Trail braking has its place, and you should learn it. Personally, on the street, I don't see exit speed and the line through the apex as "that place" or trail braking as a better way to achieve that end. We're not Valentino Rossi or Mark Marquez.
I beg to differ with the analysis in this video that the bikes going through that turn were in anyway affected by not trail braking. Those tight lines with no view to the apex were just that. Any of those bikes could have kept a far wider line until seeing the apex whether trail braking or not. That was all about road craft and nothing about technique.
Trail braking is a very good tool to have in the kit for when you "overcook" the corner. It's a safety thing. Slowing and turning concurrently is a skill that you're going to need, one day.
But there is nought wrong with riding a bike through a turn with a loaded up back tyre. In fact, it's probably safer.
By the way. I learned how to trail brake on an old 250 Honda, in first gear, in a car park. Top tip. Wear gear (you'll need it). Remove rear indicators or have spares. Have spare brake clutch and shift levers (you'll need those, too). You'll know that you're getting the hang of it when the peg's just about or is touching down as you come to a dead stop. Don't practice this on a heavy bike unless you have really good knees and a really good back. Practice it on an expensive bike if you can afford to. Most can't, be realistic.
You don’t fully understand grip. Grip comes from two things. Mechanical grip and pressure. While a bigger tire may be capable of more grip, that doesn’t mean it always has more grip. That ignores pressure. Or in simpler terms. Weight. A loaded tire has more grip than an unloaded tire.
We don’t steer with the rear tire. We steer with the front. We want pressure on the tire we are using. In other words we load the tire before we use the tire.
It’s the exact same thing with acceleration. We roll on the throttle to allow weight to shift to the rear so that we can accelerate. If we just snap throttle on, the rear tire will spin, despite being bigger.
Trial braking is not stabbing the brakes at lean, which based on your 250 story, may be your misunderstanding. Grabbing brakes at lean is “oh shit braking”.
Trail braking is simply “trailing off the brake past corner tip in, decreasing pressure as lean increases”.
There's a lot speaking for trailbraking, but advocating this for noobs (or anyone) is nigh on criminal if you ask me. Proper useful trailbraking requires very fine control of the frontbrake. And that's definitely not for noobs or other unskilled riders
Yes, grip does come from both mechanical grip and pressure. All things being equal, the greater the contact with the road surface, the more mechanical grip that there is available. Tyres deform around imperfections in the road's surface creating this mechanical grip. Pressure must be applied to the tyre for this to occur. The more pressure, the more mechanical traction. The wider the tyre is, the more mechanical traction it has that can be exploited. You just have to apply pressure.
No, we don't initiate a turn with the rear tyre. But once the turn is initiated, the rear tyre plays a large role in maintaining stability and traction throughout the turn and it is critical in maintaining the turning radius. The tyre's profile is designed in such a way to help achieve this.
And that is a key thing to remember when explaining trail braking. One of the reasons that we trail off the brakes as we tip in is to take advantage of the available mechanical grip on the rear tyre. It also balances forward inertial forces as well as downward inertial forces. The physics are incredibly complex, and some aspects are still unknown.
We don't know why wheels act the way they do at given angles of lean with given amounts of forces applied, they just do. If you've ever played with disc like objects, a tyre maybe, on a level surface, you learn very quickly just how many variables there are in its behaviour, given different inputs.
No, trail braking is not stabbing the breaks at a lean. That's called a scary moment, or an accident! I certainly did not suggest this in my original post.
Implicit, however, in my original post was that this is a skill that should be taught and learned OFF public roads and at LOW speeds. Aside from the various environmental factors that come into play on public roads such as debris, road imperfections and traffic, this is not a skill to be learned at speed. If you are hoping to achieve anything close to your full potential (that will vary greatly between different riders), start off slow and work your way up. If you haven't met the limits going slowly, you certainly wont meet them at speed, and if you do, may God be with you, 'cause it's going to hurt.
Also implicit in my original post is that in the context of road riding, this should be taught from a perspective of safety, not speed. I would also suggest that using trail braking as a tool to negotiate an unknown blind corner is far from best practice. The last thing that you need is to find a patch of gravel that you couldn't see while banked over with the front brake applied! Slow, lean, roll before the corner. Trail braking is not some sort of magical tool that should be used to find "the right line".
And note the difference between road lines and race lines. It's not always about the exit, on the road. "The road to a good apex is lined with gravel", an instructor once said to me. I should have listened. That was the end of the old Honda, and nearly me.
Trail braking on the road should be viewed as a tool of last resort. Once you've "mastered" it, at low speeds, you can practice on the road. But make sure you know the road and you can see what's coming. Trail braking through a blind corner...? let's hope you never find out.
@@CanyonChasers
Please see my reply. I am open to criticism and/or correction.@@literal_lee
@@davidbrayshaw3529 I pretty much agree. Moreover.... we can't ride track without trailbraking, but we surely can ride public roads without it. As a track instructor, I take issue with CC and MJ (and others) for introducing track riding techniques to the public roads.
Thank you for this priceless video lesson! Only thing I want to mention is that the line selection in any curve on a two way road is so much dependable on incoming traffic. Well, at least in my country, where drivers constantly cut the corners (even blind ones). So even in cases when staying on the outside of a corner gives you better vision for the exit, I really prefer to slow down and run on the inside, instead of risking a direct hit with an idiot.
The main thing is to remember that public roads are not a race course.
Exactly, so I ride somewhere between the speed limit and the maximum possible speed. But not the maximum.
Cry about it
What you mean?
😂😂
Not the main thing at all
the thing about late turn-in is not only to avoid crossing the lines on corner exit or getting the maximum braking distance, it's to get the maximum possible view distance into any blind corner. When you're at the inside of a truly blind turn, near the corner apex, with near vertical rocks on your right, you have a viewing distance of perhaps 10-20 meters, or yards if you're metrically handicapped. At any non-grandma speed, this means: You hit things before having the chance to even react to their presence. If at the same spot you drive just half a lane further to the left, you have a viewing distance of like 30-50 meters (or yards) on a reasonably curved curve. That alone should tell you: Stay outside for as long as you can (while not hitting oncoming traffic). The road isn't a race track where some observant marshall will raise a flag to indicate debris or spilled oil. In just 10 years of riding in the european Alps, I have seen just about everything from rockfall to trees to half a truckload falling onto the road, there were senseless tourists doing turns in the WORST spots, lost tarps, ripped out snow markers, and obviously all the wildlife you can imagine would have a fieldday, all trying to have a go into your front wheel for the weeeey! sensation (which won't feel that way to the actual rider). If you can see them a bit earlier, chances are you won't hit them. The lesson is: Stay outside for as long as you can (while not hitting oncoming traffic).
Oh god. Run for your lives everyone. He has summoned MotoJitsu, a man made of ego and hubris distilled into its purest forms. We are doomed.
Lol. You didn't turn on him now, did you ? 😂
@@literal_lee what do you mean? I’ve always been critical of the man when I felt it appropriate and appreciative of any good content he produces when appropriate. Contrary to his beliefs as espoused after his supposed “social experiment” his viewers don’t owe him any deference when it comes to calling out his BS just because there’s been x # of videos we have liked/appreciated.
You’ll have to forgive me if we have interacted before, it’s not ringing a bell at the moment and I’m stuck on the couch with a fever and Covid so for all I know I’m hallucinating and this entire exchange isn’t happening.
@@Fee.1 We have interacted before and I have accused you of being a fanboy. Thanks for explaining your opinion on the dude and please accept my apologies for calling you 'fanboy'. Personally I despise his ego and hubris and don't regard him the great rider he portrays to be.
Get well soon, brother. 💪🏻
Thanks for another inspirational instruction video. Two questions.
1. Why only use the front brake in the corner? Some say using both brakes gives the bike more stability.
2. Applying the front brake puts more load on the front tyre and hence provides more grip. But now the back tyre is left with less load and less grip. Why would that not matter?
Great question!
We're not ONLY using the front brake, but thats where our focus is. the rear brake does help (a little) but the front brake just works so much better. Most rider mistakingly put way too much effort/thought/faith into the rear brake. The rear brake is more about stability, less about slowing.
Second, we need weight over the tire we are using. In simple terms; Grip comes from weight. When we are slowing, we need weight/grip over the front trie. Conversely, when accelerating, we need weight/grip over the rear tire. We don't really need a lot of grip/weight over the rear wheel when we are braking, because the rear tire isn't working that hard. In extreme cases, the rear wheel may be completely off the ground. Now think about acceleration, right. Wheelies. (weee!)
This is why I talk so much about the first and last five percent of a control in other videos. The first five percent of how we squeeze the brake is critical because it allows time for the weight to shift to that front tire. The last five percent is important to keep the front tire from unloading. Same with the throttle. Whack the throttle and the rear tire will spin. Sneak the throttle on, weight moves to the rear and loads the rear tire.
Does that help?
@@CanyonChasers Thanks a lot! That is very helpful indeed!!
All I can say is this the faster I ride the better I am because I like to live !! The slower I ride the worst I get and to have those 4 wheel morons on my ass makes me very very very nervouse So I just go as fast as I can. At the age of 70 I must admit I have been lucky Or have I ?? Some learn to ride others just ride I am not sure which is best but all I know is that common sense always comes first... There are those that can learn to be good riders and then there are simply good riders I honestly wish I were a natural but sadly not I live in the middle but to try and teach someone to ride in my humble opinion is an impossible task YOU HAVE IT OR YOU DON'T but you can still enjoy riding as long as you use common sense and don't try to keep up with the fast lads and lasses !!!!!!!!!!! I know I have contradicted my self to a point but these so called educational vids make me smile Get out there and practice and then practice again if you are a natural just ride and enjoy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just bought my first bike in my 50's. As a complete beginner, this short video helps IMMENSELY! Thankyou.
What a load of toad, maintain speed, look through the bend, trust your judgement , be brave and use opposite steer, feel the line. As you exit your chosen apex, use throttle and go for it...
Who's scared in corners? Beginners? For how long? If you're scared but somehow allowed to ride on public road, stop immediately and find another hobby, thanks, we have enough dangers on the road.
Calm down Moto Gp. A lot of riders that commute to work take mostly highways and there is not many sharp turns to practice.
My single speed mountain bike only has a front brake, so traction, weight transfer, even trail braking, just seems like the natural way to get things done. On a motorcycle it's just amplified, and with greater consequences for any mistakes!
Great video!
This was so simply put without confusing theory that it was very digestible, and a video I will watch over and over. Many thanks, from someone who still gets freaked in the occasional curve.
First, thank you for another helpful video. I like that you get right to the point and combine your instruction with real-world examples and diagrams.
I do have a set of related questions, though. Should engine braking be part of trail braking? Does engine braking also compress the front end? Seems like any slowing down would, no?
I get that the front brake transfers the center of gravity forward, compressing the forks and increasing traction up front. But, in many of the corners I approach, I don't use the brakes at all. Instead, I roll off the throttle slightly and let engine braking slow me down. Maybe that's a bad habit. At the track (four track days), the instructors taught us to stay on the throttle (perhaps even accelerate) until we started braking. In other words, no engine braking. The right hand is either accelerating, holding steady, or braking. Maybe that's overkill on the road, and engine braking is fine on the road. I really don't know and would love your input.
Thank You.
I have the exact same question, also looking forward to an answer to this
It’s not necessarily a bad habit, but relying on engine braking alone is just less precise and not repeatable. Like, if you get it wrong, do you add more coast?
Try this instead and see what you think. Try riding a gear or so higher so you have to rely on your brake more.
When we coast we are giving up control of our suspension, our contact patch, our giving up some control over our radius. On some places that may be totally fine, but I rather hang onto that control.
The most important cornering tip that has always served me well is to always enter a corner at a slower speed than you think that you and your bike are capable of, due to unknown factors such as road conditions, tarmac grip, oncoming traffic, etc. Slower entry speed means more time to react to any unforeseen issue
Absolutely. Sacrifice the entrance for a better/safer exit.
I always focus on vanishing points, vanishing points are key to getting around a corner safe and smooth, it allows for enough time to react to anything that is to come and allows to ride lines that keep you in a safe road position. Mixing this with slight rear braking has allowed me to be more confident as well as smoother and faster in cornering 😎👍💯
Good video. Will compression braking work just as well as trail braking to load the front tire?
If by compression braking you mean "dragging the brake while maintaining throttle through a corner" - as has been popularized recently. The answer is absolutely no. That concept is exceedingly risky and based entirely on one guys misunderstanding that they published into a book. You can get away with it when we are going slow and we have excellent grip - but it quicly falls apart when the speeds come up or the grip comes down. It effectively puts the bike into a state of unbalance where it doesn't want to slow down and it doesn't want to turn. There are very few hard and fast rules in motorcycling - but one of them is we never, never, ever overlap the front brake and the throttle. Despite what other youtube channels or programs advocate for.
There are situations where we can overlap rear brake and thottle, but those situations are pretty rare and not nearly as applicable on modern motorcycles with traction control, etc.
This morning I rode a fairly familiar road with a number of blind corners and decreasing radii. Being comfortable on the front brake, and especially being comfortable putting more pressure on the front brake while in a turn when needed, has made a world of difference from when I first started riding and stuck to the MSF's method of braking.
Yeah the MSF assumes perfect conditions 95% of the time, everyone needs to learn how to brake while in corners or you're gonna end up in a situation when you need a skill you never trained
Yes!! I love it. It’s such a great sensation, right?
Superb video thanks, cornering is my favourite choice of road. Been riding 47+ years predominantly harley low rider and more recently triumph 1200xe scrambler, both bikes handle beautifully whilst staying on the power , judging the degree of curvature at reasonable speed, I don’t wanna die !!!
Great idea to keep front brake on if no dirt in corners. Try that in Canada where they cover roads with sand all winter and corners have sand all summer. Will go down and FAST
When we coach riders through their advanced riding course in the UK's IAM, trail braking is not included. You do not need to trail brake to get corners "right" and have great enjoyment. Take in the Information regarding the corner (limit point of view, clues to its angle from poles or trees or buildings etc), adjust the Position for safety, stability and vision, adjust the Speed so you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road (the limit point of vision), get into the Gear appropriate (responsive) for your new speed ... all this before the corner. Now Accelerate (positively or negatively) using the throttle, according to what the limit point of view is doing. If it's getting closer, use negative acceleration (roll off), if it's constant stay neutral, if it's moving away chase it!
Rolling off the throttle has the same effect of loading the front suspension and is much easier for most riders to control.
Its really a shame the UK is still teaching that. We have the same problem here. You can get away with some of that on uphill or flat corners, or when you have good visibility and good grip, but do that in steep downhill stuff. All the "negative" throttle in the world and you'll still be going way too fast to make the corner.
And I should do another video clip where we point the camera at the forks and show how rolling off the throttle barely compresses the forks, the same way the rear brake barely compresses the forks.
@@CanyonChasers not a shame at all. The Roadcraft system has been very good in getting riders to a more advanced and safe level, after passing the basic motorcycle license test. Those who want to go on beyond what organisations like the IAM and RoSPA teach, to learn and practice trail braking can do so if they wish. But this year I've been to Wales and France, plenty of downhill corners and hairpins, and had no problem with this technique. For road riding, setting the Speed first, then the right Gear, before tackling the corner, is perfectly fine.
Unfortunately, Roadcraft is cutting edge 1970s riding technique. We have the same problem here. We know more now. We have a better understanding of physics, etc. Motorcycle design has evolved. Sure, you can get away with it, but there are better, safer ways that give you substantially more control of your motorcycle.
I work with Roadcraft grad's all the time and they all come out the other side falling even more in love with riding saying "whoah! I had no idea I could be in this much control!" Many of them end up extremely frustrated that Roadcraft refuses to even consider modern riding theory.
Great video and great advice! I learned most of that when I was riding dirt bikes when I was young (10-18). The most important thing you must learn when you ride dirt bikes, is that you have to learn to "read the trail." Which requires looking as far ahead and around (peripheral) you as you can see and observing everything that could possibly be a problem and being competent to react and respond to the variances and nuances of the trail to get you and your bike through that trail. And as you stated, you can't always see what's on the other side of that corner or just over that knoll, so "it's like trying to predict the future!" And whenever you have to "try and predict" what's ahead, the best advice is to do so "Cautiously."
Basically, the same "rules" apply on pavement. You just have to adapt to the paved "trail" rather than the dirt "trail." And your bike and tires will react differently on pavement than they do on dirt!
I've been riding motorcycles for 58 years, from dirt bikes to sport bikes to cruisers and touring machines, and I still ride all year long. But I am more of a "fair weather rider" now. LOL. I'm too old to like getting soaked and freezing and then have to go home and clean my bike again!
But, I've learned to control my throttle and hold the left grip with my thumb and index finger, and I keep my pinky, ring finger & middle finger of both hands on the front brake and clutch levers whenever I'm riding in "traffic" or riding the "twisty turnies" (i.e., the Blue Ridge Parkway, etc.) and I keep both of my feet close to the rear brake and shifter pedals, that way I'm always ready to make a maneuver when the "trail" throws something unique at me!
Thanks a lot. Just I would to say, sommetines I where happy taking the "green line" as in a blind corner in an narrow road, it prevent me to crash on a car completely on my line. and of course, I wait later to accelerate. And now, I take the "blue line" only if the road is quite large enough. Of course, it's not a critiscim of your advice, as other cars has to stay on his side, but we know that's only in our dreams. Thanks again
This is exactly right. Aside from where the green bike is pointed when going back to the gas; which is bad. The blue is the best line in good conditions, but we have to be adaptable riders. On tight, jenky, blind corners, I'll be on that green line as well. Only I'll get direction before going back to the gas. ✌️
This has saved my bacon on many occasions and is the best thing I have ever learnt as a 64 yr old motorcyclist of 48 yrs. safest advice ever
The smooth decrease in front braking pressure while corning has saved me before, too. But, if you're using that technique, it will sometimes save your bacon, but it almost always means that you did something wrong. Either you overshot the corner (too fast on entry) or you failed to see a change in the turn radius (in the middle of the turn) , or you were in too high of gear, (entering the turn), or you were just too drunk to be riding a motorcycle !
The way to know is verge chacing, if the verges are catching up with you, you're going too fast, if they are running away from you, you're going too slow. Also yeah you may have more grip, but the more grip you have, the more the bike wants to stand upright, which means less ability to lean if you need to.
I agree with most of what you have to say (99%?) . On roads with tight , blind corners, on coming cars tend to blow the YY . My technic has been to go the center line early ( if no oncoming traffic is visible) on right handers giving me the best view , early apex, keep my speed where I can make an adjustment if necessary ( bicyclist appears suddenly just at apex ) and wait on picking up the throttle until I know I have my direction and clear road.
On left handers I will set my speed, late apex (wait) until the corner opens up and I have a clear exit. This will keep me out of the danger zone of that oncoming Ricky racer ( car or bike) that will cut ( blow) the corner when the road is basically a repeating s turn.
Best, DT
YES! It's a dynamic process, right? We alter our plan based on a myriad of variables.
Great tip. Tried it for a couple days already and gives me a ton more confidence. Can actually sense more stability because of more traction in the front tire. Felt less stress even on wet roads. Thanks. 😅
wide, late entry, trailbraking till I see the exit and that it's safe to accelerate.
Never had problems since adopted that along with Roadcraft's idea that "you always should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear..."
Great video for novice riders to encourage them to look for the vantage point and trailbrake
Carrying some acceleration in the corner means more friction, therefore more grip. Squaring off turns may give you better exit speed, but running that wide line also leaves less room for error mid turn. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but it's very defensive. Starting wide, closing the radius through and exiting wide is very effective and safe as well, with an experienced rider. This is a very safe technique for inexperienced riders and also unfamiliar roads, but criticizing every rider that took that downhill turn the more conventional way is a bit short sighted in my book. Still pretty solid info, but not necessarily the best/only approach.
You are absolutely right that it's not the only approach, but getting direction is more important than anything else. Those riders: they were crossing the center line and running into the oncoming lane - if a police officer was there, it would be a wreckless driving ticket. If an RV would have been coming up the hill, it would have been a collision. Single vehicle accidents of riders running wide in corners is one of the top reasons motorcyclists are dying.
The insistance that we need acceleration in corners for friction/grip is misleading and comes at the cost of requiring more and more lean throught the corner. We get grip from the front brake as well, with less risk of running wide and into the oncoming lane.
Thank you for this video! I‘ve been riding for years like I was taught in Germany (Break before tip in, neutral throttle through the turn) and with all the tight and blind corners in southern Germany and the alps I very often had corners that I felt I took too slow and conservatively or I was too fast for my own comfort. With the trail braking, I always feel in control of the turn and since then had no turn were I felt my speed was wrong through the turn.
A real game changer!
I learned the value of trail braking through your videos and it has been reinforced ever since then with my daily riding.
I finally realized I am applying the brakes, or slowly letting go of the brakes, for the duration of a curve.
So, unless I'm going very slow speeds, if I'm in a curve, that means I'm interacting with my brakes, either applying them as I am entering the curve, or slowly letting go of them as I'm exiting, transitioning to throttle only when I'm done with the curve.
And, of course, I am done with the curve the moment my tire is pointing in the direction I want to go, for the simple reason that when I hit the throttle, my bike is going to go straight in whatever direction that tire is pointing. Not complicated.
I became 100% comfortable with this when I learned I can enter a curve and slow all the way down to a full stop in the middle of the curve, but only IF I am already trail braking. If you have to come to an sudden stop in the middle of a curve and you're not already trail braking, you're going to have to do an abrupt stop that's going to cause an immediate accident.
Trail braking is my ONLY insurance I can come to a quick, full, stop in the very middle of a curve if I have to. There is no other alternative because . . . physics.
curve = brakes. For the duration. Period
I need to be this explicit about it to unlearn the Motorcycle Safety Foundation nonsense of slow, look, press and roll.
It is only minor hyperbole to argue they are terrorists, literally profiting off the predictable death of motorcycle riders who are still learning this stupid technique, long disavowed, from the seventies, because it's too complicated to change the curricula that has been embedded in laws and regulations in so many States, and because they would have to change all of their literature and webspace, and retrain all of their trainers.
But in most States, you have to pass their curricula, and demonstrate the proficiency in that outdated technique before you are given a motorcycle endorsement on your license. And sadly the only proper thing is to immediately untrain yourself from that technique after you pass the course.
Honestly, F them. Literal murderers profiting to protect their functional monopoly as gatekeepers of the motorcycle riding community.
From your mouth to gods ears 🙏
Great Video! Add late turn in and these techniques WORK on every Bike I've owned. Honda Silverwing Maxi Scooter, Yamaha FJR1300, Yamaha Roadstar Warrior (650 lb. V-Twin). To have these riding techniques burned into your riding brain, it elevates the joy of this Sport to a whole new level! Besides, when I corner correctly, it's the closest I can come to flying a plane with just 2 little rubber patches on the ground. Get that brake light on!
The other day I took a corner too hot for the first time, and it scared the shit out of me. One minute I was going into the turn, the next the bike was headed for the shoulder. I’m still not sure how it happened, but this video showed up in my feed and really helped to clear things up. Thank you.
I love the way you explain things. In France they teach you to follow a similar line in corners, however, they don't talk much about using the front brake for a better grip.
Thank you so much! Someone told me that in France they call "chicken strips" bandages de peur. I always thought that was a hilarious translation (assuming it's correct).
I bought my first bike in 2000, took a break from bikes and rode a trike for 10 years, 3 years ago I got back on two wheels. I was never very good but after discovering your channel I've never been more confident on the road, and using instruction from your lessons has made me so much better than I was before
Thats awesome!
Hey. So much to like about this video, and a consistent message with Moto Jitsu's 'it's all about the exit' mantra (just a little more detail re entry braking). Apart from those who overcook entry speed, many come undone by entering more slowly than they realise they can, then getting on the gas too early to try and make up for it (just as your blue and yellow bikes showed!). You just need to have the patience to wait before getting on the gas on exit, and then work on lifting entry speed to something you're comfortable with. And like the drum back beat. Brett Tkacs for the road!! 🙂Cheers.
I have had 7 motorcycles. Wet surfaces with oil, gravel, tree droppings, shortened sight ahead, and your engine locking up @ the perfect time, often has deadly results.
That wasn't at all where I thought this comment was going, but yeah. Engines locking up is a terrible situation.
Double the advertised safe speed and add 20 percent if you have a good handling bike on good tires and you know how to ride. If not, the advertised safe speed should be observed. If the road is wet or cold use your own judgement if you just have to ride. Throttle up on tip in but don’t get too greedy with the throttle until you get a feel for traction and direction. Drifting on a motorcycle is fun unless it’s unintentional and then it can be exciting to say the least.
I race motorcycles every weekend so I know how to take corners but I still love to watch technique videos! Btw for those wondering this video was right on the money!
Trail braking trail braking trail braking! This and Bret Tkacs' latest video on trail braking are great refreshers for sport touring and ADV riders who enjoy some lean angle in the curves.
This has been the absolute BEST taking corners video explanation, demonstration yet! I’m getting ready for my first time in Sturges with my husband on my own bike! So excited! But don’t have a lot of this type terrain to practice on first. Will be checking your video library to see what else you might have to help me get ready!
Thank you so much! These are fantastic and might just save some lives out there ❤
Very clear and helpful because you're specific and relevant--you say exactly what your riding fellows need to know. I'm a high school English teacher, and I value good, clear instruction. Thanks.
Great simple explanation: corner entrance is about getting to corner exit. Really appreciate your instructions dude.