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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ย. 2014
- Installed the E3D v6 hotend and changed from the direct extruder to a Bowden fed extruder.
Massive quality difference from switching to Bowden. I wish I'd done this before purchasing the E3D but no regrets as the E3D produces very fine prints with minimal leakage.
Really happy with the finish of the external perimeters of prints now :)
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Very interesting video, even seven years later. While direct drive has proven to be far superior to bowden type setups, your findings regarding dragged filament are a perfect explanation for the quality issues I have on one of my printers. The solution today however, would not be to abandon direct drive, but to change the way filament is routed to the x-carriage. Thank you for that insight.
I started 3D printing with a direct drive setup. Then, after watching this video decided to give E3D v6 a go. It has now been 6 months I switched to bowden. My verdict is thus: Unless you are trying for extreme speeds(150mm/s +) or you just like the aesthetics there is no reason to use bowden. Direct drive is the way to go. Far less problems, more consistent, easier to troubleshoot.
+flanker I also find that bowden is hard to tune to find that sweep spot
+dantheman1998 flex3drive solves both issues but pricey. However imagine high speed low carriage weight printing.... also it's retract speed is 10-100x faster, 0 stringing.
+flanker
Where do you recommend to mount the motor end of the Bowden extruder setup. I have a Chinese clone of the Prusa I3 (afinibot) and i definitly am going to upgrade but was wondering, where shall I mount the thing? I have seen on top of the printer frame, on the side, on the spool holder...
Francois Bujold mine is at top. I don't think it'd make much difference. Just mount it wherever is most convenient. Although try and keep the tube short.
+flanker I don't know if I'd call 150mm/s extreme speed. I work with a printer that does 250mm. It does use a Bowden tube. One thing a Bowden setup gives you is room on the carriage for part cooler fans. I also wonder if reducing the mass of the carriage reduces wear and tear on the drive mechanism.
Makes sense to me. I'll try it tomorrow! Thanks for sharing.
This is an incredible resource for anyone interested in 3D printing. So glad I found this channel!
It occurs to me that there are two factors at work here that I haven't seen mentioned. The first is placing the spool above the machine. When this is done, you have a heavy (2 kg) weight above the machine, attached to the machine; and any time the print tray moves, that motion will cause the heavy spool to oscillate. Those oscillations will then translate back down the machine, contributing to the ghosting artifacts.
The second factor is the weight of the bowden feed unit, as opposed to the earlier gear driven approach. The Bowden feed has a much lower weight at the print head, hence much lower inertia. It's my belief that the inertia - the resistance of the head to sudden changes in velocity - is a major contributor to the ringing and ghosting artifacts.
I suspect that everything that can be done to keep the center of gravity of the machine as low as possible, and to keep the moving extruder head as light as possible, will provide clear benefits in artifact reduction.
Thanks so much for a great channel. Well done!
I agree 100% I havent received my printer yet but I kind of cringe at every spool holder attached to the top of the machine that is already bouncing around different directions without extra mass way up on the top of the build.
Well done. This will help me get even better results when I finally get a 3D printer.
I believe the filament 'pulling' on the carriage is not giving problems with extruding, but rather with smooth movement of the x-carriage. You should try a direct drive with a bowden tube leading to the direct drive, see how that goes!
sttrife THANK YOU!!! That is exactly what I do. You'll get the best of both worlds: better filament feeding/retracting resolution and less strain on the carriage.
How exactly do you have your extruder set up then?
I'm guessing like any other makerbot?
i.ytimg.com/vi/Tr_H8v0LiW0/maxresdefault.jpg
ohhhh.... nice. I'm going to try this. Been considering the Bowden setup, but the negatives didn't excite me. Lower mass is nice, but I have a heavy enough bed that I think my speeds will always be slow. But this.. take away that X-movement force... yes. I will try it.
I 3D printed your E3D V6 holder and installed it on my MK2. I also said WOW when I printed layers 0.1mm thick at 100mm/s. Couldn't believe my eyes!
So much faster to print and I don't know how it can be improved further. Thank you.
Now printing an i3. Will move my electronics to the new machine. You gotta stay with the program and upgrade!
Thanks again for a great design.
Great design, Congrats
You can use a feedtube with a direct drive extruder in order to remove the issue of the tension changing when the printhead moves.
i think using a tube to guide the filament will greatly benefit direct drive extruders too. that the feeding is consistent and even seems much more important, than super low friction. some controlled friction can make things smoother and more precise - think of the feel of a nice volume knob
I just want to say that I like your videos a lot. There are far too many videos of this sort which showing more of the presenters themselves than the actual things they talk about and present. To be hones, I don't care how they look like at all. Many also speak too fast and difficult to understand. You speak fast also, but it is easy to understand what you are saying and we don't get distracted by your face or body, you show what you are talking about and that's in my opinion excellent for this sort of video.
when using a direct feed system instead of bowden, you can always attach the drive motor used for bowden to a mechanical gear system made of 3d printed parts that will drive the "spool" to turn giving you the slack you need without unspooling the entire roll.
You could use a small stepper motor to turn the reel of filament the same time as the extruder is feeding though the hot-end. You could wire the smaller filament stepper motor in series with the main filament one. Or maybe tap off the signals coming from the micro-controller into another stepper motor control. Just an idea I guess. I think it would be pretty cool.
It is not only that the flow is inconsistent with the direct drive, but the resistance the filament puts on the print head will slightly pull the head up (few microns) which makes a difference in the print quality. The bowden tube will keep the head from being pulled up by the filament.
I have an Ane t A8 that came with the direct drive extruder. I searched Thingiverse for a Bowden-type carriage and printed one. The end result was that the weight of the x axis carriage was significantly reduced, and the Bowden tube made it easier to feed filament from an airtight container. Print quality improved and I never looked back. This machine makes beautiful parts! I did not, however, stop there. I mounted the whole printer onto a non-warping wooden base, eliminating any chassis movement. I hardly ever need to re-level my bed because of the increased stability. No need for any auto-leveling device. I also quit printing with PLA, preferring instead, PETG.
You could also do as it is done on the mendel90 from Nophead with the tube going from the spool to the extruder.
Good notes. That is one reason that currently I have top mounted centered filament on good bearings. from the stock filament setup it was a huge difference! I cant wait to go to bowden just due to the weight reduction on the head carriage.
Atom RC
Cool! I find Bowden easier overall to work on as there's less clutter in one location, it's kinda spread out instead...
Thank you for taking the time. I have not received my printer yet but selected the FlashForge because of the dual head and large printing volume. I may have run into this issue easily had I not run across your video. Thanks.
Mark Wilson Fingers crossed your filament extrusion mechanism will be consistent out of the box. Otherwise there's always options like this :)
Built one. works great.
Yes I agree with you about the better quality of the printer job finish. Also you reduce the X axis weight taking off the extruder motor from it. This also help reducing the complete Prusa vibration during printing. My Prusa is original Bowden design I only need a better hot end to print small detail pieces better. Good job..! E3D may be a good choice.
Awesomeeeee Thanks Man !!! 😎😎😎
I recently purchased this extruder and I was looking for the print parts..and yours are Awesome..Love them.
I am Upgrading my Prusa i3 from Mk8 Extruder to E3D V6.
Cool Video 😆
Subscribed & Thx for your designs !
👍👍👍
+3DIY Original
Cheers!
I Mounted filament holder at back of the printer on the desk with Teflon tube to feed so get no slack works great without Bowden
I have to agree the 1.75 made the difference faster melt and easier movement but that E3D jhead is nice. i have not had 1 clog not mess and the parts are coming out stronger and hardly no crumblies on the edges
I love it
Got an UP 2 Plus when they first came out and are happy with it but being limited by the print size. At the moment trying to look for an affordable replacement. I'm def leaning towards the Bowden feeder as keeping the stepper away from the heated nozzle is also desirable along with keeping the nozzle part as light as possible. I'm also looking at one where the print bed doesn't move, 3rd party filament, open HW & SW, affordable spare parts and upgraded parts. BTW - Good clear video... thanks.
How about leaving direct extruder on, mounting a bowden tube at its input, and attaching it rigidly so the feed spool is uptaken at the same location and without dragging the filament along? It's probably also a good idea to have the spool on radial bearings.
I agree with the others who disagree with your reasoning behind the improved print precision when adding slack to the filament feed. The feed rate can't be the cause because of the massive mechanical advantage a Wade's extruder has. It is going to win, no matter what else is going on, or break the filament trying. And something else is, indeed, going on.
What has less mechanical advantage (compared to the Wade's extruder) is the X axis. This is easy to demonstrate: With the power off on a generic i3, pull up on the filament and see if the filament stepper moves. Then pull sideways on the filament and see how easily the X axis move.
Side-to-side changes in filament tension will pass right through the Wade's extruder to then load/unload the X axis. Even a minuscule amount of slack or elasticity in the X axis is enough to make layers misalign, especially if they are printed in various directions.
Similarly, switching to a Bowden feed also reduces the "bounce" in the X axis by lightening the load the X drive motor has to accelerate and decelerate. Again, the improvement is not due to Bowden being better or worse than direct-drive; only that Bowden makes the carriage assembly lighter.
+Bob Cunningham
That is true, the x-axis could have been hampered by the extra tension applied to it by dragging the filament along.
Either way, the change in print quality for my printer by switching from Direct to Bowden has done wonders.
I tried a bowden setup on my Prusa and although there were improvements mainly due to reduction in mass on the X carridge, I got more severe stringing, blobbling and ooze problems using PTEG. I tried all the stringing fixes and eventually had retraction settings of 7.5mm on each move which gave me the best results with bowden, but the backlash introduced by a bowden setup cannot be fully eliminated. So, in the end Ive reverted back to a direct drive extruder feeding my e3d v6 clone hot end and the results are better quality, faster prints but, yes, with minor artifacts like shadowing visible, but this is much more acceptable to me than all the stringing, ozzing, blobbing and increased time for printing. With a direct drive setup I can run with 0.2mm retraction no problem.
If this is really an issue with direct-drive setups, then the same teflon tubing could be used to feed it, so that the x position doesn't affect the length of filament the motor is pulling against.
The same problems are found in MIG welders. Some mig welders now have a PUSH/PULL design where you would use both of the motors running at the same speed
coopadupa Nice! Thanks for the info :)
And this is why I have custom spool holder adapters for all my spools so the rod holding the spools doesn't have any play and the axis of the spools is not out of center. So the spools roll much easier now and I can do 20+ hour prints without watching easily.
Removing the roll of filament from the top of the frame onto a shelf or a holder on the wall will releave the possible wobling caused by the heavy roll.
Are you sure that flow rate inconsistency was the cause of the print surface issues and not simply the print head changing in height due to the intermittent tension in the filament as the x carriage was moving?
With the extruder still mounted on the x carriage, you could just add a bowden tube from the extruder to a fixed point on the case to guide the filament. This would also eliminate the drags on the filament by the X carriage.
RoterFruchtZwerg
Yeah that was mentioned in another comment. I agree that should alleviate the drag. I still prefer this setup tho.
the tension on the filament is also causing the extruder mechanism to be pulled up. but i do think that the mass of the extruder assembly will have a huge impact on the quality of the prints.
I was laughing when I heard "Chinese stuff" in the video. What else in this video is not, except his voice? LOL.
+paul wang I think he means the J-Head. There are a lot of crappy J-Heads to buy from China, i had one too.
+Joe Blue He was talking about the filament. Chinese-made filament tends to be noticeably lower-quality than the more expensive Australian- or US-made stuff.
+David H (Clonkex) except e-sun is excellent. they CAN make High Quality anything, but they're filling a demand for cheap shit that works just ok, oppose to great.
No one wants to admit they cheaped out so they blame it on "Chinese stuff". Get what you paid for, I'm sure those "Australian stuff" was made in a Chinese machine.
this is funnu I was wondering where you got the mount for the ext ruder and I searched for it on thingiverse and I found it and it was made by you
Hi, nice video, it realy helps. Where do I find the extruder holder STL file to print? Cheers Marcus
I would like to thank you for all your great videos on the Replikeo Prusa I3 printer. I purchased one and it came in Friday and other than me being an idiot I have it for the most part setup. I am hoping tonight to be able to do the calibration cube. Just need to figure out how to hold the ABS spool till I can make a bracket for it and re-attach the heat bed and adjust a couple things. :) I will definitely be doing a lot of the if not all the upgrades you have done.
Brian Carlsen That's great Brian. Don't knock yourself I was exactly the same (noob) when I received my printer. It really is a beast of a machine and a time sink as well.
I remember printing my first calibration cube... ah the memories :)
Ah, the Prusa i3, good kit to start with... but why didn't they used the framing as a stable base and only use some rods as the Z-axis support?
What would be interesting is to build an unspooler with a cheap stepper motor that would turn the spool of filament by the same amoun it is being driven in the hot end. And ensure there is constant slack. pretty simple algorithm. I'm for sure going to try to implement that over the summer.
ZopteY A simple way to do that is to parallel another stepper motor on the same extruder motor driver. Both stepper motors driven from the same driver will provide a 1 to 1 constant slack I guess.
I have now my E3D Lite 6 on my printer, using your design of course! but I'm struggling with the Firmware configuration since I never used before a Bowden configuration...my first layers are really bad...you can take any line of filament from that first with your fingers, without using any sharp tool...would you please give me some tips about the proper way to set up my printer for it's new Bowden hot end ? Thanks in advance for your help. Cheers!
My suggestion would be for you to figure out a way to multi filament print using dual extrusion on your anet a8 and I'm sure you will attract a ton of attention. Myself and a few others in my town built anet a8's and we have heard of people who have upgraded cheap Chinese 3D printers to print with multiple filament at the same time. It would be awesome if you did this!
What if you had both a Bowden and a direct drive extruder. So the Bowden can tug the filament from the roll, always making sure there’s lose filament ready for the direct extruder to pull
Great video. This inspired me to try out the e3d v6 / bowden combination. Can you offer any suggestions for print/slicer settings for this setup? Your prints look great. Thanks!
+Daniel Coleson
Hey thanks! If you're after quality over speed, then print quite slow at around 35mm/s. Also set your default acceleration quite low to 800mm/s for both x and y axis. And of course, use quality filament ;)
I was told the worse quality of the extruder on the carriage results from z axis lift that is caused by having to spool off filament while moving.
You have backlash compensation on the z axis so that already lessens that problem but what you could do except going full bowden is making a "reverse bowden" feed to your direct drive that connects to the chassis then into the extruder and from there into the hotend. By that you have no z axis lifting force when the x carriage moves along und also get better quality.
the main difference i see in your sample prints at the end, is less ringing effect with the bowden system. the carriage is much lighter without the extruder, it has less momentum in brutal acceleration or deceleration.
I use a Zortrax printer which uses a direct drive extruder. It puts out nearly perfect looking prints every time. I think the problem was with your old extruder and not simply the filament tension changes. If you had switched to a better direct drive design I think you would have seen the same improvement.
This is exactly what I've come to surmise is happening with my printer. Tension of the filament on the hob bolt was causing mine to sometimes stop feeding into the hot end. I'm either going to do the Bowden or some other fun fix with a stepper........ :D
Mike Mills
I can tell from the tone of your comment, you're leaning toward the 'fun fix' option... Nice one :)
like the idea of bowden however with flexible filament it cause clogging and lack of quality through bowden. I resorted to using a better filament roll with the filament directly sitting on 2 bearings. It's so free to spin that with the slightest tug the spool unwinds more and gives plenty of slack.
+Aston Radford
th-cam.com/video/ljRL5acsEmo/w-d-xo.html
Just as a tidbit.. though probably someone has already mentioned it, buuuut this actually still adds 'play' in the tension of the filament... just now instead of it being on the spool's end, its now on the hot end's side. Now every time it moves away from the spool, its slightly tugging the filament back and thus less filament is actually getting to the hot end, although only a tad bit. and as it moves back towards the spool, more filament is pushed towards the hot end, and thus pushes more plastic out from the hot end. Sure it doesn't seem that way, and may actually provide for 'better prints', but the cause of this is because of the 'buffer' that's created inside the hot end itself.
So your actual 'print quality' problem wasn't with the extruder's placement, but more so that the physical movement of the X-axis is being hampered ever so slightly, and thus forces the motors to work a bit harder than it was expecting to. but again, it 'should' be negligible... but maybe the X-axis of your machine has some sensitivity issues in that regard.
Another technical reason, is because the filament would be getting fed into the extruder at an angel, and thus not as good of grip, even if the extruder is calibrated right and has a solid grip when parallel to the filament going into the hot end. But that's still kind of negligible in affect, as its only feeding a few tiny millimeters at a time, and thus the buffer in the hot end 'should' be helping to compensate.
Last night I noticed on my printer what you are talking about...the filament pulling tight at various times. However, I think the tension on such occasions actually pulls on the whole print head causing it to be yanked away from the work piece -only by a micron or two. But this is enough to reduce quality of finish. Either way, the changes of tension can't be good.
+Karl Allison
Interesting idea, and probably what I was experiencing too. Definitely change to another feed method as it will produce great results.
I also question this conclusion. He said the hobbed boot was not slipping. Unless the stepper was skipping steps the flow rate will be constant.
No cooling fans?
Hello, I was wondering if maybe you can do some videos based on popular 3D printers such as Creality Ender 3 V2 Neo 3D Printer. They are good printers but I am sure there is always room for improvement regardless of what it is.
Very Interesting your videos, Thanks A lot.
If I'm not mistaken, your previous HotEnd used 3mm filament and the new one uses 1.75mm filament.
I was wondering if you could explain why did you change and what were the results (ameliorations/deteriotations)?
Hi. Yes I switched from 3mm to 1.75mm filament because I wanted to change the extruder mechanism to Bowden. Pushing 3mm filament through a Bowden system requires a lot of force, which can be done of course but it would require elaborate gearing to create this force. 1.75mm is easy to feed via Bowden and so I have a single gear on the stepper motor forcing the filament through the Teflon tube into the hotend. Easy setup and maintenance.
(try to manually push 3mm filament and 1.75mm filament through a 0.4mm nozzle hotend and you'll understand)
Also, 1.75mm may give greater control of the flow rate as you have to feed more of it in comparison to 3mm. In theory this should allow finer control of the flow.
You also can't go wrong reducing the mass of the x-axis mechanism.
If you want to print flexible filaments, or for other reasons avoid bowden issues. You could also reattach the old wades extruder as you had it before, but mount a PTC on the top of the wades, and a ptc mounted somewhere on the frame. This means the path to the extruder inlet will be a constant length, no matter the position of the x axis, but it will allow the driving force on the filament to be very close to the hotend
+dumle29
That's a good idea. I think anyone on Direct drive should create something that makes the feed tension constant.
Tech2C I honestly don't know why it's not standard, it's such a cheap and easy improvement :/
What about adding a guide tube to a direct feed setup? that's what my printer is designed for, but unfortunately the guide tube hasn't arrived yet (building it week by week with a Magazine)
^^^ This. I have heard it referred to as "reverse bowden", where the same type of bowden tubing is used, but with a direct drive extruder; the end of the tube farthest from the extruder must be mounted to a solid part of the frame. This allows constant pulling from the filament reel, as well as removing the "whiplash" of straining against X movement as the carriage moves left-right.
That image at the end is showing some elephant footing, indicative of the bed being too hot. can you turn the heated bed off after the first few layers are done? either that or turn the settings down.
My question to you is how about a hybrid of the two: Direct Extruder and Bowden Tube. For example the benefits of direct is that you can use soft filament among other benefits. How about putting the filament spool on the side of the machine as you have it with your Bowden set up and run the tube from the filament to the direct extruder with the tube at the filament spool being fixed. This way the tube keeps the length of the filament consistant regardless of where the print head is, and you maintain the benefits of direct extruder. Just a thought.
I've just printed all the necessary attachments for my E3D v6 extruder. Now I see that the fan that comes with the E3D v6 is a 2 pin fan where as my pcb is a 3 pin connection. How would I connect it?
If your getting too much tension variance depending on where the X axis is, then your spool holder simply sucks and isnt letting the spool roll easily. Simply print off a better spool holder like the ones that use skate bearings and there will be almost 0 added tension regardless of print head location. Lots of people simply use threaded rod or one of the bar type spool holders and both of those add a lot of friction against the spool surface when trying to pull some filament off it. Add in that with threaded rod you also need a way to keep the spool from working along the threads to one side of the holder and then rubbing against the holder arm also creating even more tension.
the skate bearings take all that out of the equation and hold the spool in place while not creating an added tension for the Z axis to be transfered as the drive pulls the filament down.
Hm, I'm not sure if this is the right conclusion. Basically because the flow is not the only thing you have changed. In principle you have changed the whole extruder system completely. Now you are moving significant less weight which leads to less wobble and less backlash. And you can especially see the difference in backlash on your printed samples.
Just make a test and add a kind of dummy weight to your bowden setup that fits to your old setup. Oh and by the way, when you switch to a bowden it's a good idea to adjust the retraction rates ;)
The weight does not really matter if your frame is sturdy enough. We manage to print up to 180mm/s and 400mm/s travel speed with a direct drive extruder and the prints look still smooth. It really depends on the whole setup and not only one piece in the chain.
Strahlex
Basically you are right. The whole system is important and not only one piece of the puzzle.
But in this case here :
1. Look on the printer system and especially the Z axis. This system is far away from rigid. In fact it's one of the most unstable systems you can build.
2. I mentioned also backlash. And this effect is caused by the acceleration of the mass and the flexibility of the belts. This cant be influenced by a rigid setup.
And by the way, if you look on the pure physic rules, its always more efficient/easier to reduce the weight instead of increase the stiffness of the setup. ;)
What about an directdrive with a boudentube between the spoel and extruder.
I'm wondering if you're not actually dealing with tension/slack on the filament messing with the feed but instead deflection of the rails because of the tension/slack the rails are deflecting and causing the head to rock back and forth on them.
2 interesting experiments with your setup would be
- to mount the direct drive back on it and then add a feed tube to the inlet side. If that gives you the same quality print as your remote feed then it confirms that the tension is messing with the feed.
- to make your head mount shorter, moving the print head closer to the carriage. That should put less torque on the carriage and cause the rails to flex less, possibly further improving your print quality, especially in the y axis
A good fix would be to mirror the extruder movement on another channel with a stepper motor connected to the spool.. so it's maintaining the level of slack as the extruder feeds.
+Kyle Geddes
Yeah that would maintain a constant feed also.
+Kyle Geddes Same idea came to me when I watched this video I and going to try that even with my bowden extruder
+HenneH would be interested in seeing how that works out. how will you mirror the channel?
For now am thinking of connecting a gear to the unengaged part of the extruder gear and to it a pulley so I can use a belt. My printer is still under construction and I am designing my own extruder so I will fix that in. If you are interested I am going to share the finished files with you.
+HenneH ah.. here I was thinking where I could find a cnc controller with a separate extra channel, but that's an elegant solution. For sure, share when you get it going!
interesting ... i think i might try to do the same whit my Printrbot Plus, i had the same problem the first month i used it, but this does seam like a much better way to feed the printer :D
Rune Laurtsen
Yeah, i much prefer this setup than the original. Good luck with your upgrade :)
thanks for proucing this video^^
So following your logic - the next step up - even from a bowden tube which moves - would be a stationary Hotend with a movin x-Y-Table Setup like some CNC-milling machines have.
I could imagine this producing even nice effects - or for an overkill - create a printer which is big enough, so that the whole spool is on the x-carriage itselfs and moces around together with the printhead - this woul of course require both big motors and a sturdy design - but seeing CNC machines moving around 30-40kg like it is nothing, the 2 or 3 kg of such and axis would be easly handable.
kniefi Good idea. A 3D printer already exists with a moving x-y platform - 3Drag.
I think with a CNC machine it's a little different for quality purposes as it's cutting "1 layer" so to speak, so multiple layer accuracy isn't an issue for it. With a 3D printer each layer must be deposited exactly as the one below to produce nice looking walls.
If the moving mass is too heavy, you'd need to adjust acceleration settings to minimize oscillations on sudden directional changes, which will impact sharpness/resolution of printed corners.
Ultimaker got it right then!
What if you can put tubing from extruder direct drive to the filament roll
i have a question i am new to all this if i want to change my standard end on my setup what exactly do i have to do i have standard setup and want a e3d v6 hot end is it just the end i need to order or do i need diffrent brackets ect to attach it and will that work with the same board i have
Where are you getting your PLA/ABS in oz??
Can you tell me where you got your extruder feeder and maybe a part #
I recently went with a Bowden setup using a E3d clone. Printing is great until it loses temp at the hot end about 1/3-2/3 into the print. I changed heat cartridge and thermister thinking maybe one or the other is going bad. Extruder motor starts clunking and the print goes all stringy and then choice words are heard. I can get rid of the words but not the loss of temp. I have had this thing apart more than a few times. I believe all this comes under the heading: Modern Problems. Any thoughts? Thanks!p.s. love your videos!
I think this is mostly due to removal of mass, you do not have a heavy stepper and the inertia that comes with it when going at higher speeds. Belt tension and gearing will also have an effect. You should also get yourself a filament cleaner/lubricator to alliviate some of the friction in the bowden tube.(Might not be a problem with the short tube you are using.)
martin haaland
Hey, yeah the Teflon tube doesn't seem to bind. The problem with adding lubrication is you don't want it getting into the hotend, which means it mustn't come into contact with the filament.
You are right, a much lighter moving mass does indeed assist with print quality and equipment longevity.
where did you buy the 3D v6 hotend when i scroll down on ebay they only have it with aluminium
Watching this video I almost thought he invented the bowden conversion. The main advantage of bowden is the reduced weight of moving parts. It now doesn't have to move the whole motor all the time.
+Jean-Pierre van Melis And that is the only advantage... Bowden setups give you much less control over changing the flowrate during a print. You need large retraction values, and there is much greater chance of blobs or voids at the end of of retraction. Ooze rates can not be accurately predicted because there are several variables involved which can constantly change. Direct extruders minimize the effect of these variables.
Both setups have their advantages and drawbacks.
Hi. I have the same kit from Replikeo and as I have seen your video, I choose to upgrade mine as you did it. I just have upgrade to bowden extruder (the same as yours), but I encouter some trouble with calibration, in particular with the retraction movments. Could you tell us what kind of parameters you have with your extruder ( lenght of ptfe tube, lenght of filament retraction, speeds, etc...)
Thanks for your help !
scarou022 Sure. Length of PTFE tube is 60cm. Slic3r retraction length is 4mm. Slic3r retraction speed is 100mm/s. Slic3r retract on layer change ticked. Marlin DEFAULT_AXIS_STEPS_PER_UNIT for extruder is 98.85.
Make sure the stepper motor gear is tight against the filament and no filament is stuck within the teeth of the gear. Also the first layer must have sufficient gap from the bed to allow the filament to flow otherwise the filament will slip.
Tech2C
After trying to replicate your settings on my Prusa without expected success, I decided to make some "improvments" on the original "Compact bowden extruder". You can find the result on my thingiverse www.thingiverse.com/thing:669459.
Thanks a lot for your help !
P.S.: I look forward to your next video about your fpv !!!
Very nice! That is some fine engineering going on there :)
Nice video, now i know why my prints come out like crap! hahahah I'll be converting to bowden soon. Keep ya updated! Thanks!
+irapps
Great! Look forward to your results...
Use a Bowden tube on the direct drive extruder for the ultimate setup. Then you never get pulling as it moves because the distance always remains the same.
Just make sure you mount the other end to the machine. Just use it as a zero tension guide like the makerbots did. I'm doing that on my p3 steel build.
Great job! I want one of those for my printer! I'm wondering if you can share on your description the links to get the files to print that beautiful Bowden system? (included the feeder set up?) Thanks a lot in advance! Cheers!
Done
Tech2C Thanks a lot! Nice files, I'm going to start printing as soon as I have any free time! (I don't want to bother you but...sorry...I can't find the file for the feeder...it is there or does it is an external link?) Have a great day!
Juan David Barrada That'll be on my Thingiverse page under "Makes"
Tech2C Yes! You're right...is there! Thanks a lot again!
I'm thinking that direct feed would yield a more consistent flow rate, if the filament spool is placed further up, like at the ceiling. It would accomplish a couple of things.
Firstly the amount of unspooled filament would contribute more mass to overcome the moment of inertia of the spool, giving unspooling a slightly more uniform characteristic.
Secondly and more substantially the length of the hypotenuse of the triangle described by spool, carriage and center plate will deviate less from the distance between spool and center plate, which should produce less pull and slack of the filament as the carriage moves between center plate and the outer edges.
Has anyone tried mounting the spool further up with direct feed?
Johnny Nielsen on my Schufco i3 I have that, spool mounted about a meter or two above. What you forgot is that the flexibility in the filament also evens out the tension a little. Nevertheless (although I don't yet have a proper spool holder with bearings installed) I get better quality by simply pulling on the roll every hour or so and unspooling a few meters of filament that will hang as a coiled roll between the printer and the roll.
Note at 7:33, the "ringing" is not affected. So it's stepper. Probably, it cannot be stopped without osscilation
That "ringing/ghosting" I can't seem to fix. I've read it's to do with large mass starting/stopping suddenly causing overshoot. The moving y-axis is heavy and definitely causes more ringing/ghosting than the x-axis. Ringing/ghosting in the x-axis has reduced with less weight but it's still there.
If you have any suggestions to fix this please share :)
I installed bowden too, but i have some problems with it. Biggest one is it seems, there is not enough pressure in the nozzle because of bowden and it results in gaps between perimeters.
+ZeppyCZ
Temperature too cold? Blocked nozzle? Under extrusion/calibration? Using 3mm filament?
Hotenf is fine, i tried several types i have and every one of them worked the same- infill is perfect, but there are gaps between perimeter walls. I am using 1.75 fillament, PLA mostly, my extruder steps are calibrated correctly. It is not underextrusion, infill, top and bottom walls are just perfect. I can try increasing temperature, Tested 185-205 with no effect, i'll try go little bit higher
i see you are using the full graphic lcd controler, did you get it from replikio?? couse i got one from repikio (the lcd screen) and no matter what i do i cant get the sd card to work. i was wondering if you mabey have had the same problem and how you might have fixed it
Tom
+tom haaima
Hi Tom, I purchased the display from eBay. The SDcard works for me, so not sure why yours isn't?
I'd email Replikeo and ask for support, otherwise I'm sure they'll send you another one if it's faulty.
+Tech2C thanks i wil try that
I wish that Tevo makes E3D Titan & v6 mount....
Thats what a printer is for! Making things you can't buy...
taking the stepper motor off the X carriage is what makes the difference. less inertia means more accurate positioning.. Also the bearings of a prusa i3 are really low quality & cost. SKF makes pretty high end linear bearings in similar sizes. I think that would also be a huge improvement! however the biggest problem of this printer is the moving bed, It is way better to have the Z movement on the bed (again inertia)
+00Mass00
Yep, agree with everything you've said. With this design, I can't do anything about the moving bed, so the only alternative is a new chassis...
I like your idea regarding the linear bearings. These are unknown quality bearings so maybe a brand name like SKF will add further refinement to print quality. The only issue is these printers are built to a price, so once you start upgrading to brand name components the 'bill of materials' cost might become prohibitive.
+Tech2C Yes you are right about the costy BOM, but personally I think thats the great thing about the repraps they are cheap and not optimal but through time and after a while you can easily afford those upgrades. of course at some point you would be better off buying a "better" printer although I don't think printers of 6times the price perform that much better.. btw the bearings are SKF LBBR (LBBR 10-2LS) It sure is something that I would like to try. they are not too expensive.. Do you know if 8mm Z rods would make an improvement compared to the M5's? Seeing your videos makes me realise my printing quality is pretty bad! lets upgrade!
I also find the conclusion somewhat dubious. I started off with an A8 clone which suffered inconsistant extrusion and terrible ghosting. I built a 2020 cube chassis for it and both issues are history. It still has most of it's original hardware including direct drive hotend. I also have my spool mounted on the top of my chassis directly over the middle of the machine.
I think chassis rigidity makes far more difference to print quality than a bowden ever could.
Not having your spool mounted to the top of your chassis there-for reducing the weight on it is what has made the difference that you see in my opinion. I got my printer in late 2016 then built the cube chassis for it mid 2017 and it is still printing very well to this day.
Can you please, share the stl file for the j-head bowden?
thank you
Hey, I got a question off topic but I was wondering what type of nema 17 stepper motors are you using? I have been looking at buying the motors but I am a little confused with the specific specs for the different types of motors that are out there. Thanks
+Iceteakilla
There's a few different sizes of nema17 motors. Look for the 4kg torque version.
Tech2C Thanks a lot!
I asked replikeo if there was no listed printer upgrades they now include and the now provide a fiber glass instead of carbon fiber so it does not bow and its works better than the carbon fiber.
3d printed spool bushing with bearings on an appropriate rod directly above the printer solves this issue as mere grams of force are necessary to unspool the filament. If you get lazy and don't use a bushing then you have that off center weight of the spool inconsistently tugging back on the filament. Still don't see any good reason for a Bowden setup
Also, I'm going to take your conclusion witha grain of salt. There are various changes other the the change in ''stack control'' that happened when you switched over to a bowden tube setup. also, arguable, keeping the same direct drive setup but adding a teflon tubing and repositioning the spool where you put it could have had the same effect. it's that repositioning that caused an improvement not the bowden setup. Correlation does not imply causation!! Further, plastic geared direct drive inherently are inacurate because...well..they are plastic, and they are printed so there is just so much accuracy in the gears you can get from that... Switching over to a direct drive metal gear coudl have had the same if not a better effect because you remove the hyserisys from the bowdel tubing.
what's the screen attached to the corner? I don't see it in early videos and it wasn't in the update videos.
+gingerneering101
It's an LCD screen. I generally don't have it attached as it's next to my PC.
Is it true that the Replikeo kit is only 350$? I've wanting a printer, and have been thinking about a printrbot for ages but this just changes the game. It seems too good to be true. (Could you show more about your mini quad design? I'm also into RC myself.)
Yep it's that price, but add postage cost. Watch my earlier videos to see what you get from the kit and the build experience. As you're into RC you'll have a blast assembling and tuning this kit.
I'll be uploading other videos soon with quad stuff. Cheers.
Hi nice video .I have a question about the bowden fed compare to direct ( im a bit noob at this ) in 1.75 filament i heard there are troubles with different materials and the second question is about the hot end what is the best to have on ?
+stylios zerox
Hello. The only material which is difficult to print with a bowden extruder is the flexible filaments, such as TPU. There is absolutely no problem printing PLA, ABS, PETG, Nylon, Polycarbonate with bowden. In fact, there are flexible filaments available which actually work very well with bowden (Eg: PolyFlex).
Regarding hotends, I recommend the E3D, but this is the only one I've used. I've had great experiences with it and feel comfortable recommending it to anyone whom asks. Cheers :)
+Tech2C Thank you :)
Reading the comments so far, I don't have the experience to make any valid comment... but now I know of something else I should look out for in my future plans. Thanks. You must be constantly pleased with your improved output. :o)
+John Colvin
Hi John, yes it's been a rewarding experience increasing the quality of prints over the many months.
Just goes to show you don't need to spend a fortune to attain great results ;)
I've just upgraded my Replikeo's kit to bowden just like yours. What is the part you use to hit X endswitch? Also on mine, filament is fed fine, until I put it into hotend, then it stops moving, doesn't look like gear can push it anymore. Any advice on how I might get around this issue? Also what steps per mm setting are you using?
Hey! I simply have a hollow 20mm calibration cube glued to the x-axis carriage. Perfect height to hit the end stop. I printed so many of these, it was great to finally have a use for 1...
With the filament, you'll need to guide it into the hotend by hand until it passes whatever point it's getting stuck on - likely around the nozzle area. Then slide the teflon tube over that last section of filament into the hotend.
I'm using 98 steps per mm. I recommend calibrating your steps without the filament going thru the hotend.
Tech2C Hey, that's brilliant idea to use hollow cube! :) I did guide filament by hand, and it melts fine if I hand feed it, but it's not moved by direct drive mechanism for some reason :( Maybe tube is too long, or bearing not pushing hard enough. Also I set mine to something like 150 steps per mm, maybe that's the issue.
BTW it would be awesome if you make a video on calibration of bowden extruder, as far I'm aware there are none on youtube :) BTW I love all your upgrades and added almost all of them to my prusa. Thanks a lot for these videos!
Hi.
What printer do you use, I know it is a prusa, but is it an original or geeetech or something else?
Im thinking of getting a 3d printer.
Great vids 👍
Hi, this was a Replikeo Prusa i3, but I have since upgraded to a Hypercube.
I just bought a JGAurora Prusa i3 kit from amazon for $350. Of the i3 kits I was researching, there was always something missing in this price point.
Either a small build size, non heated bed, no LCD/SD card slot, lack of online support, and mostly an unstable or warpable acrylic frame. Most i3 kits have an acrylic frame and read one reddit user say that its not a matter of if an acrylic frame will fail, but when. So with that on my mind I purchased a metal frame JGAurora Kit.. (the price just went up to $409 today)
My Y axis prints 0.1 -0.15 bigger than the X axis. So I cant make a square. If I tune it with steps per mm it will only solve it for that specific size. Bigger prints gets to short then.