ive been producing for almost 30years, worked for several big manufacturers, owned everything from aturia to yamaha. ive owned moogs. ive owned behringer. anyone who can say they can guess between a Moog Model D and the Behringer Model D is lying. its makes me laugh to watch those moog elitist bash behringer gear. no one cares what made that sawtooth, they care if the music is good or not. debating the 'ethics' of cloning is pointless and childish. you have a synth, i have a synth - who givea a shit what synth was used on a song? i applaud behringer for bringing AFFORDABLE and QUALITY products to the market. (as my Moog Model D is in for second keybed repair.)
The music space is fun and expensive. Not everyone is flushed with cash. The focus on cloning is getting old. Behringer does nothing financially or physically to harm a Moog owner. Only emotionally. If a product allows someone to enter the space and have fun, I’m all for that versus the mess we see in our daily newsfeed. When we pump the brakes on worrying what others use and throttle our gas pedal of what we have and enjoy, we can get back to doing what brought us into this space. Good points made in the video.
You are wrong in everything you are saying cause you are watching it from the wrong point of view. The thing here is not damaging the already happy moog owners. We don’t envy you. It’s damaging the whole r&d behind these products. you don’t see that without revenues for moog there would be no r&d, and without r&d you wouldn’t have got the original products, and hence the moog clones from behringer. Very low understanding of what product development is and that you need revenues to repay capital investment. Competition in the liberal market should be about proposing alternatives that push your competitors to improve. This is just price dumping eating at their table Now think that you’ve personally worked one year to design a product and it gets immediately copied. How does that feel?
The music space is actually cheaper than ever... but we are getting bombarded with so many options and FOMO on that one particular sound that we need, that all the G.A.S. makes it seem unbearably expensive. It is definitely an entry point with the Behringer line-up into exploring and getting into all of this.
@@voidmusic549 damaging the R&D? I really do not think that all too many people who are actually in the market for a Moog, would buy the Behringer instead. Buying a Moog is, as many have mentioned, a more acquired taste to some extent... you get the quality, the haptics, the optics, and the last bit of refinement in sound, along with good customer service and the prestige of owning a Moog. No, I would say that these types of cheaper alternatives from Behringer will ultimately make the "hobby" bigger and ultimately provide more potential customers for more premium products/brands. Because we all know that some younger people are getting into this with little money and grow into the premium consumer eventually, and even people with more purchasing power sometimes need a lower entry point to get into something before they really commit....
@@voidmusic549 your pulpit speech falls on deaf ears and doesn’t change the fact that I and many others WILL buy Behringer clones regardless of the business r&d ethical debate because a lot of us are hobbyists and not paid musicians. If Moog wants to sell overpriced synths to rich folk then more power to them, but I’m not interested in their gear because I can’t afford it.
As an analog synth fan, and a Behringer fanboy, let me say this: if MOOG (or Sequential, or Roland, etc) was the only option for analog synths, I would own maybe one, simply due to price. But because Behringer is so freakin' affordable, I own half-a-dozen, and I know I'm not the only one. I think that makes the world a slightly more musical place as a result 😉
I think Moog and Roland are trying to tap into the affordable market now by making stripped down gear. I agree though, it’s all about making music and having fun.
Behringer is the reason I got into buying synths in the first place. I don't want to try working with a synth, see if it suits me when it costs me a kidney to buy a single one. I started with the TD-3-MO and the Crave. Now I own 12 Behringer synths / drum machines, 3 other brand machines and a bunch of effect pedals both Behringer and other brands. I have an X32 and just ordered a bunch of Behringer Eurorack modules. I now have a full (yet never complete lol) studio and still own both of my kidneys.
I would never have started with Synt without Behringer, now after 7 months in this hobby I spend a lot of money in many other brands, started with modular.
I have a mother and 2 DFAMS. I'm blown away by how good the Edge sounds. If I could go back in time, I'd have happily bought two Edges instead. Would happily have welcomed the MIDI functionality, instead of needing a Beatstep Pro to wrangle the DFAMs to do what I want.
Behringer isn't quite like the example you give regarding Amazon, Walmart, etc. Behringer own the entire supply chain - from chip manufacturing, R&D, to the actual factories that make the equipment and even distribution is controlled by them by deciding who gets their products through their 'super partners'. This is part of the reason they can offer things so cheaply. Quite frankly, the Moog stuff isn't better built. It's made from very similar components and it's only 'assembled' in the USA. Their circuit boards aren't made in the US. They're printed in China just like everyone else's. Moog would like you to believe otherwise because they can charge more by saying 'made in the USA', but they simply assemble the various things at the plant in Ashville, NC. Sure, Moog's R&D, marketing, etc. is also US-based as well but their lower level employees were looking at unionizing very recently because of the level of pay their received versus the price of products. Moog use Chinese components - just like everyone else. The difference is, is that because it has a Moog badge on it with 'made in the USA' they charge a premium for their product. It's similar to designer clothing brands. Designer brands are made in the same factories as their cheaper competitors, but because it's 'designer' they can charge more for them. Moog isn't any different really. The build quality of the Behringer synth stuff is rock solid. I own a bunch of it and don't have a single complaint. It sounds great too. I think you're fooling yourself if you think because you paid more, that Moog's versions sound 'better' and are better built. Starsky Carr has a great comparison video up on here in between the DFAM and the Behringer version and they sound identical. Where I will agree with people in this whole debate regarding Behringer is the company's ethics. Personally I think they'd be better off building upon their Neutron line of semi-modular stuff than cloning these. Behringer is a much bigger company than Moog and can scale a lot easier and obviously provide them at a much cheaper price as a result. They've also gone after some people in public and it's been pretty tacky - like the whole cork sniffing debacle. I can understand if you don't want to support Behringer based upon ethics, but on sound and build quality alone you're fooling yourself...
Appreciate your thoughts. To trained ears, Moog will sound different unless Behringer use the exact same schematics for their clones. I did listen to the comparison video you are mentioning and it sounds 90% there. And there are some differences between the behringer clones and the Moog ones with some design choices like filters. Other than perhaps a few parts like you mentioned which are still important, many of the Moog parts are sourced from the USA. I think it would be beneficial to do a video on this since many people ask this. I am also aware of much of what you are talking about and have discussed them in previous videos. I cannot give an opinion on build quality for behringer other than what users say having used both. If you listened to my video I did mention Moog has their own issues and I have been vocal about them. All in all, I appreciate your civil rebuttal.
Square wave is very very similar, triangle is a bit different. And the filter is the biggrst difference, in my opinion. Different doesn't mean better or worse. Personally, I prefer Moog ladder filter, but I don't think that alone change the sound so much to justify 3X price (again, my opinion). So it's Behringer for me. Regarding "brand value", it reminds me of Apple, they're accused of the same. Strange enough, I don't see lots of people complaining about Microsoft stealing ideas from them, nonetheless this is a fact. And Apple computers cost more, but not 3X other Windows computers. And, the OS is different, and some people (like me) can really appreciate the difference, maybe some other not. Ah, Apple computers are "Made in California", but they make stuff in China and assemble in the USA. Very similar situation, different reactions from people though. Apart maybe from "dedicated" Apple users, which are often seen as hipsters. Like Moog owners.
I dont think these were even intended to be clones of the sound. They clone the feature set, but they use their 3340 VCO clone (MemoryMoog, OB-Xa, various Prophets), which honestly is better than the Moog oscillators. Its a real pity they didnt expose more of its options in the crave esp, its the same osc as the Neutron.
Well those volca type rotary buttons are really terrible. I think that the metal knobs that the Behringer have will make the materials more durable, we know that wobbly plastics stop responding after a year of being used. (I know this thanks to Moog Werkstatt, they are the same bad thing)
@@inperfectsequence7840my behringer shit breaks all the time, lucky I know how to fix it The moog interface and feel is probably worth it even if it doesn't at the time
I own the sound studio 3 and am stoked that Behringer has come out with these. They can act as a gateway for exploring sound for folks. I plan to pick up the edge for the connectivity that the DFAM lacks and the peace of mind if I want to take it outside the studio to a friend's house. I would love to see Moog have a business model like Gibson and Epiphone, cheaper entry-level options, and the pro models made in Ashville but I don't think that would ever happen.
@@synthsamuraiproductions I believe Moog is more interested in preserving their integrity and their commitment to a strong American workforce than just profit.
A tiny proportion of these products end up in the hands of folk who actually making a day to day living out of using them. The rest of us are hobbyists, aspiring stars and enthusiasts. And no matter how interesting, dull, exciting or colourful the kit is, it's consumer electronics. Behringer, Roland, Moog, and many others understand the consumer electronics market very well. As per previous posts, just like any other consumer market. Personally I have a budget for my hobby, and am happy that I have increasing choices of how to use it. My choices might be made on the basis of budget, ethics, beliefs or experience. Do I enjoy using my Erica and Moog kit more than a VST, or a Roland boutique, or a Behringer? Does it sound better? Is it more ergonomic, does it fit my workflow better? Or is it just a feeling? Does it inspire me more? Or do I feel more committed because I spent £600 instead of £200 on a piece of kit that does a similar job and produces a similar sound? Did I put more time and energy in to my Mother 32 than my Crave? It's a hugely subjective thing, hard to measure, and if it does the job for you at the time you're doing it and you can wave one hand in the air and feel good with your choice for your reasons then happy days, crack on, and have fun making music. I love that these channels exist on TH-cam; they open our eyes to what's out there, give us a taste of new choices and open up debates and discussion. Peace out people x.
Moog and Roland should do like Fender and Gibson with Squire and Epiphone because there are many countries where it is impossible to buy their instruments: too expensive in Italy the average salary is 32,000 per year (so there are people like me who earn 20,000 per year). I could NEVER afford a set of Moogs. Well done Behringer filling a market niche
When I got my Crave I preordered it because it looked like an interesting original concept to me for a reasonable price. I love the synth, but it was a bit of a bummer when I found out that it is just a clone of an existing, available product.
Its a feature clone, but the sound is different, it uses their clone of the CEM3340 VCO that Moog only used the the MomoryMoog, but Oberheim and Sequential used extensively.
I already have the Crave, Neutron, and K-2 . . . they work perfectly well, even have some features a bit beyond Moog, sound "close" enough for me. For the actual price of these items, it's a very reasonable option to consider.
Moog is an experience, as you put it You can’t really point at one thing and say “that’s what makes them more expensive” Because there’s not one “thing” It’s the intangibles, how they make you feel, how they inspire you to explore and make music. I once bought a boog, and while it sounded amazing, really quickly I felt it didn’t invite me or inspire me to make music, it was just a tool, but it wasn’t feeling like an actual music instrument Synths like the grandmother or subsequent 37, they feel like a grand piano feels in the sense that they’re inspiring and rewarding in ways that go far beyond just the sound and can’t be clearly defined. You feel the love of making music instruments that they put in, the special ingredient in the recipe that makes all the difference. Some of the behringer clones might have a bit of that too, but none I’ve tried did, except maybe a bit in the RD8, but I ended up selling it anyways. When it comes to moog, entry level ones didn’t necessarily have that either (looking at you, Sirin) But as soon as you get to the mid level moogs, you’ll start getting that full on moog experience And there’s no experience like that elsewhere that I’m aware of (granted I don’t have other high end analog synths like prophets or oberheim, I used to have a pro one that felt great and quirky in an ms20 kind of way)
I have subsequent 37 áñd have á great sound,but 6 boob model d is incredible,no speak english,all have a great sound,the good piano is a Roland v-synth ánd subsequent bbyee
Its not an experience. Its a tool. Manufacturer bias has made it "an experience". I am sorry, but I use my Behringer synths along with my OG synths as equals. They are tools to get a desired effect. Nothing more.
@@ericMT But this is the question. (and I mean this sincerely Eric). Why spend 2000 on a Moog, when you can get exactly the same sound (Starsky Carrs videos have proven it), for a 10th of the cost? And those that claim they can tell, would not notice the slightest difference in a mix!
It's good that both exist and get supported. With one you support the innovation and with the other you support the competition which is important for fair consumer prices.
@@voidmusic549 it's literally competition. You may hate the way they do it but these clones are gonna take market share away from moog, which is competition.
@@heimdall4148 if the US taxed heavily on non-domestic products, it would benefit all. In your model, it benefits China. Moog can lower prices, and go out of business or close their r+d. No new products, bcos it sure sounds like you’re not supporting “both”. You think you can rely on others to support inventive companies, but there is a breaking point.
@@brmbkl it also benefits Germany in this case. And inovative products will always be sold especially when reverse engineering takes 2 years like in this case. It's the same with cars. Every car company buys cars from the competition and takes them apart to steal ideas. Same with phones. Apple invented the iphone but other company's stole the idea and also started making simular looking devices. In the case of behringer, they did the same. They bought a moog, reverse engineered the device and added some functionality that they thought was an improvement.
I have three Craves and going to buy also Edge and Spice. MIDI in/out/through is the killer feature in these devices. There are overlays and you can change knobs - so how these devices looks like is not important.
@@TheWorld_2099 I use MIDI through with with splitted keyboard between MIDI channels and in addition to that each of Craves modulates each other with patch bay. You can get crazy results with this setup ;)
@@SmallWorldBigThings that sounds amazing… I only have the one for now, and a Model D, but I can see getting another, or maybe the others in the series…I’m sure they’ll interact in great ways… So you don’t use the USB MIDI?
@@TheWorld_2099 As the brain of my setup I have Synthstrom Deluge... so the USB MIDI is for different synths in my setup (I can connect 4 other synths with USB hub to Deluge). For three Craves I use DIN MIDI OUT which is also present in Deluge and additionally I use pass through function on Craves. A lot of cables... but it works ;)
@@SmallWorldBigThings that’s very very interesting..! Yes, I’m struggling a bit with different ways to get midi in and out to my different kinds of setups. Sometimes I make beats with the MPC X, and sometimes it’s in Logic (although I’m thinking about switching over to Ableton or Studio One), and I really don’t know how to switch back-and-forth between those two systems without pulling everything apart. I use an old MOTU MIDI Timepiece, which is fine, but surely there must be better now
I got the akai apc64 controller ideally for ableton but it's a cross between like a novation launchpad/arturia beatstep/push but it has 1 midi in 2 midi out and 8 cv channels and it has a standalone sequencer so you don't have to have it connected to a computer and I can control 8 channels and save the sequences as projects and later import them to ableton. The apc64 made it incredibly easy to use the moogs that don't have usb or midi connectivity. I use it to control dfam, subharmonicon, B Pro-1 and, B Nuetron (can't wait for the proton). Anybody looking for something to control their gear with I highly recommend checking out the akai apc64 (you do not need ableton to use it but like most controllers it comes with a lite version)
Having the patch on the right is much better, but I just use longer patch cables for the Crave... can't wait to get the Spice and Edge and rack all 3 side by side on a wall shelf! I love the colors.
But as good as Fender is, you can produce Fender sonics on far less expensive instruments. I think if you want a Fender or a Moog, that's fine, but the cost benefit analysis of Behringer vs Moog puts me in Behringer's court. Uli Behringer's main stated mission was to make musical instruments affordable. That works for me!
The Moog studio 3 cost me way more than I wanted to spend, but it makes me smile whenever I walk past it. Such an aura ❤ I love my Deepmind 12 it is a very special machine. Behr should do more of that collaborative synth design.
Moogs are *assembled* in the USA. The micro components that actually produce and modulate the sound are made in China. In the very same district as components for Korg, Behringer, and for other products such as washing machines, microwaves, etc. Analog music equipment is ancient technology. It's not sacred.
I have the crave, and I might get the edge, but also I might one day come out the pocket for the real Moog. Behringer’s are gateway synths and will expand the market not undercut it.
Couldn't agree more, had a crave got a Mother 32 after and was happy, conversely I got a DFAM and eventually let it go as I couldn't justify having the money tied up in it for what I got out, it's a very personal thing.
This whole Moog range looks like hipster bait. For 2k dollars you can get a 16 voice analogue poly from Sequential. And if I really wanted them, I'd take the cheaper Uli copies, have my fun and move on. I wish Moog designed a polyphonic synth that does not cost as much as a car.
That's because it is overpriced hipster bait. Fortunately i realized it early enough and sold most of mine when other manufacturers entered the marked. Unfortunately i still sit on a rarely used Sub Phatty with gooey side panels and sticky mod/pitch wheels (thx for using cheap plasticizer on a "premium" instrument) and a broken octave switch because they also used cheap switches on the board inside.
I refuse to pay the markup for a Moog, even at 30% off. Glad Behringer is making this. Anyone whose mad should realize it's not taking away significant business from Moog. People who want Moogs, don't settle for Behringer.
Funny at First when I Purchased the Crave I didn't even know it was a Copy since they look totally different.... But I do love the USB and MIDI support on the Crave .. Would love a M-32 but the Price is out of My range !.. Would Love to see an Actual Teardown of Both Machines to see the Hardware difference !!
System 55 / ARP 2600. I could never afford a Moog System 55 or ARP 2600 but with Behringer clones it is possible. They may not be the same, but the fun factor is there for 1/4 the price. Behringer clones are a great investment for musicians. Maybe later down the road (when you become a super star) you can purchase the real thing. I was once on the fence about Behringer but now I can have clones of the synth I could only dream about owning. How cool is that.
I have a Mother 32 and had a Crave. I was happy with the way that Crave sounded but the plastic buttons were really crappy in my opinion. The patch bay layout on the Crave was really unworkable for me.
Nah, they’re better than the moogs. Thinner, sound identical, more features, smarter layout. Ugly front panel design, but indistinguishable. It sound exactly the same
Im interested to know about durability of conponents because they will inevitably need a service in future. Is 1 more likely to have issues and is 1 harder to repair?
Moog products sound great and there's something about the heritage. I will own one in the future, though it must be one that's built in Asheville. But, with 2 kids in college, a Model D will have to do for now.
I live outside the USA.my moog grandmother ended up costing me twice retail after fureardiabd customs and took months. I can have Behringers in three days at retail.
I don't like Behringer clones in general, but now that Moog has sold out, I feel like these are an exception. You make really good points about the layout and patchbay thay I never would have considered. Thanks for taking the time to explain things in detail
Finally I got the complete moog SS3 and I really enjoy it! But if I knew that a cheaper version is on its way I would have waited. But now I'm settled and have no intention of selling to get a cheaper version. But yeah, I would have liked to save that money... Thanks for the video
100% agree on your comments about the totality of the Moog brand. It’s an experience and that’s a part of what you pay for. Bespoke screwdriver, too. Thanks for kicking off some interesting discussion in the comments.
The phenomenon of when a current product is almost-cloned like this reminds me a little of the appearance of Japanese cars in a market previously dominated by American and European manufacturers. They were basically making very effective, well-priced vehicles that were heavily influenced by the models that were selling best in those regions. They were able to get a good market share by doing this but also have never displaced the manufacturers of the cars they were imitating.
Is Moog still hand built in the USA now its been bought out? I'm pretty sure they got rid of all the staff and are moving the production to Asia. The Behringer units SOUND EXACTLY THE SAME and the build quality is excellent. I have owned both so I can say that from personal experience. So the question is are the Behringer units cheap or are the Moog units stupidly over priced because of the name? If they where £350 each no one would be bothered with the copies and they probably wouldn't have had to sell out to the dreaded "InMusic".
From Moog I will probably get the Subsequent 37 which is better for what I do. The low price of Behringher trio puts it in a category that I could get it just to explore new things.
the biggest difference for me is that I have been enjoying my subharmonicon for almost four years and behringer still hasn't been able to get the spice produced and out into any stores 😅
why get upset, we are heading forward, i salute Behringer, 🙏😃🎹 they provide good synths for poor people to explore, that's love I think, all people deserves a synth regardless they are rich or poor. 🙏 For sharing❤️
Good points all Around. As you said; capitalism in action. As far as Behringer cost, indeed full on made in China/Asia Moog stuff is ASSEMBLED in the usa, components, chips, boards etc are from China/asia as well So besides the cachet of the name….. paying for sone higher wages. The “employee owned” thing priced to be a bust when Moog collapsed, there were bad actors at the top, this is covered elsewhere by justifiably bitter ex employees. Anyway-glad there’s choice and a robust synth market
I sold my DFAM exactly because of the lack of midi. It just became too much of a PITA to use for anything other than just farting around. I loved how it sounded though.
I love my dfam but, man it should have midi in out like beringer has,especialy for the price.But to be honest i dont miss midi at all,I just think for the price of moog product like dfam it should include this small cheap component
I took a behringer to a pawn shop and because their so lite the shop owner nearly questioned if it was actually a working machine ../maybe they could stick lead weights inside to make them feel more quality.. I’ll never choose behringer again I’d rather eat wallpaper
Behringer is literally a clone company. They basically have almost no original products. Even their original products are still based on other products. A lot of their clones are literally the exact same circuit as the real thing, sometimes only being modern versions of the components or a cheaper version. It honestly boggles my mind that people are upset by this or even surprised. I’m honestly surprised they haven’t released an oberheim clone of some sort especially since the new ob-8x came out. As for the weird colors, think back to literally every big release they have done. Every single one eventually comes out in multiple color options. There are multiple 2600 color options. Multiple color options for all the drum machines and desktop units. Now normal people can actually put together a cheap version of that monster “the mothership” that Lisa Bella Donna put together. When they released the system 15-55 modules in eurorack that let normal people use moog modular. When they released the Roland system 100 it let normal people feel like Hans zimmer with his house sized Roland 100 with more modules than even a retailer has for sale. This is nothing new. Look at guitars. Fender. Squire. Then you even have cheaper brands than squire who produce cloned strats, teles, jaguars, jazz masters, p/j basses, etc. normal people simply cannot afford to spend the price of a nice used car on an instrument. Normal people barely have 300 extra bucks in their account for emergencies.
Speaking for myself, Behringer didn't poach me from Moog. As a synth noob, I won't spend $2k on a Moog. I will spend $199 though. And if I like this stuff, maybe I'll graduate to a Moog. Long term, this is good for the industry as a whole, including the premium brands. It's an entry point in the same way Epiphone and Squire are for guitarists.
Now that the Behringer "Studio trio" is out for a while, I would love to know how it sounds. I had Behringer gear in the past and it often sounds great fresh out of the box, but you notice a huge drop after a year or two. They can loose sound quality fast, a problem I have not experienced with any other gear. I don't know if they still have that problem, though, as I haven't bought Behringer gear in a while for this reason.
The Subharmonicon clone is still not available. It’s also a hit and miss with these. I’ve had to return stuff due to poor QC or I just found something better. Definitely a personal decision.
@@Tiger.Arcade ah, I didn't realize the Spice still isn't out. Thx for the quick response. I'm currently pondering getting a Moog Sound Studio and your videos are a great help to get a good impression of it.
@@theomnitorium7476 the sound studio is a lot cheaper than it used to be. Especially if you just by them all separately. And as I’m sure you’re already aware the differences between the clones and the originals are something to consider. Different filters, eurorack compatibility, etc.
@@Tiger.Arcade yeah, I pretty much stopped considering the Behringer option. It's not even about the sound, more about the design, since the clones can't be arranges as neatly together and they are, quite frankly, pretty ugly. The MSS3 is just a beautiful machine that I want to play when I look at it.
@@theomnitorium7476 for me it was aesthetic, quality, and legacy. I wanted a Moog semi modular and this was a perfect gateway providing a nice wide arrangement of sonic capabilities. Those along with the Mavis are the last products before the buyout.
I bought my Moog units individually over a few months and probably paid around £1,600 or £1,700 plus the side panels. I don't care what behringer make but I'm not buying it or supporting them. Anyone who thinks I'm just upset because I spent more is wrong, I'm not upset and I'd buy Moog again. If you buy the behringer stuff, good luck and I hope you enjoy it.
Yeah, my opinion is that it is basically 2 different markets. I have never heard, nor do i even expect to hear, of somone trading in all their Moog gear and canceling pre-orders so they can buy Behringer gear. I also can't see anyone trading in 12 Behringer synths to get a Moog. It's 2 different markets. I myself am a fan of both companies. I mostly have Behringer synths because it is what I can afford and I love having "vintage" synths that created so much of the music I grew up loving. I also own a Moog. It is my favorite synth. If there was a fire, it would be the one I grab first. Is that BECAUSE it cost more than any 2 of the others combined? Maybe 🤷 Just remember, the placeb effect is still an effect! When people think/feel that something is better because it is more expensive or rare, then it is. Thats how the brain works. To quote The Matrix "Your mind makes it real".
Behringer is the future. They are the next big brand. These synths will be worth money someday. I respect everything they put out, they sound phenomenal. All chips and silicon are coming from the same manufactures and out of the same mines. Behringer is for the musicians. Awesome video.
I watched this video when it first came out and YT suggested it to me again, which is good because we’re about to find out weather Moog’s quality stays the same now that they’re no longer employee owned. I’m sure nothing will change, but I can see the big company that owns Moog now trying to raise the prices even more… who knows
behringer also cloned the granndmother. i got all three moogs when they came out, and the grandmother, and i was bummed when they made the sound studio without making all those extras available to everyone like me that already owned them. not even the mixer. I think they should have sent all those extras to everyone that already bought them. or at least have a. package of the games, and screwdriver, etc. but no. . i bought the Behringer D when it came out and i love it. also bought the cat and the wasp clone. I will never have 5 grand to to spend on a synth like these, so it's nice to have these, i have all three in a stand like the moog stand, and they all look nice together. If I had the choice to go back, I probably wouldn't have bought any of those moogs. I play my sunphatty and subsequent 37 much more. thanks for your take on this,
I’m with you. They should’ve sold those kits with the power supply/ mixer and included additional things like the card game as a separate option to purchase for those who didn’t buy the bundle. I use my matriarch more for my professional recordings. I mainly use the sound studio for messing around on and tutorials. One day I might sell mine. Time will tell.
I have several moogs. I love the Moog sound studio. It is to expensive and that’s why where taken over. Usb midi should be expected as well as midi in and out. I will get the Behringer alternative because of the extra functionality. But I’ll get a Matrixbrute first. Price will not be the driver for me.
I’ve got the moog triad and a couple craves. The craves do not sound like a m32, they sound like a sequential with a ladder filter, not nearly as smooth. The edge I must admit sounds good, as it’s supposed to be a bit crunchy. I’ll be getting a couple of them, though I love my DFAM. Like the crave, I don’t believe the spice will sound like a Subharmonicon. All said, moog soundlab sounds noticeably better than behringer will, actually sounds like moog. DFAM is a drum synth that’s supposed to be played. It only needs clock. The people happy that the edge has midi as if that’s such a huge differentiation don’t get the DFAM at all.
Also, i was always ok with the price for the sound studio. It was the fact i didn’t want all 3 and there was no option for the subharmonicon and the m32 only.
The same I don’t need the DFAM, most of my stuff is sample based, big beat or hardcore, I have an old Novation DrumStation, and I’d go for an Arturia DrumBrute if the DrumStation dies. Just wanted those two to compliment my KSrack, DX200, with my ESi2000, might look at other items of gear.
Moog Synths are designed and assembled in the Moog factory. The original MOOG systems are still built and hand wired there but the components used are from all over. Parts like volume potentiometers, switches, power supplies etc. are made all over the world. As far as the circuit boards go I have seen all the tours of the factory and never seen a production line for circuit boards. Surface mount technology used in modern circuit boards uses robots for placement of the small IC Chips, resistors, capacitors and other components which are to small for accurate human placement. Then it is run through a solder bath to secure the components in place. Chips and the other components are from various countries also including China. BTW an oscillator is is not the main sound it's the Ladder Filter which was invented by Robert Moog. That is the sound of the MOOG and the only original part he patented I think. This filter has now been copied by many companies including Behringer. So for the price of the MOOG line I would hope that they would use the highest quality parts available that's all. I purchased three Mother 32's and the rack to mount them on. The sound was amazing but I sold them all to purchase Euro Rack Modules because of it's sonic versatility.
I'm glad you mentioned some of the manufacturing process and went into detail. Thank you. Similarly, there is no patent on a Eurorack, so in theory Behringer could have mounted the Crave, Edge etc like they do with the Model D, Neutron etc in a Eurorack mountable case like that. Why they didn't, I assume, was to placate any dissent on 100% plagiarism. No-one gives a crap about why IBM PC clones dominated the PC market from 1990 onwards other than they now have a reasonably priced PC and if you really want to you can build one yourself. Similarly in the synth market components such as ladder filters or 900 series oscillators have been available for decades and used in modular. The faux outrage from the barely literate sounds to me like some sort of infantile desire for cred when in fact it's just capitalism and we are all in its throes.
I feel like Moog is the Apple Mac of synths for sure, you get the whole luxury experience. I get that. I just go my Crave yesterday it’s my first synth and it feels really good and sounds really good looking forward to getting the Edge. Maybe I save up for Moog one day 😂. Great video and points cheers 🍻
Watch Lisa Bella Donna's Ascension video. I can't afford that. But, I love it. I've not prioritized $100K for synthesizers. Like amp sims vs tube amps, no one can tell the difference in a mix. I have a Crave and am ordering an Edge. When the Spice is released, I'll get that too.
Great to hear this view from someone who invested in Moog, but recognizes some cannot do that and this is a way for them to get a taste of these joys. As for CV I/O on the top as mentioned they are meant to be set side by side. Perhaps the thinking was you would set something like their 280hp case "behind" them for eurorack expansion? Smells more like lawsuit avoidance to me...
Synths where always expensive. Like pianos. At the beginning of the 20th century, there where many small companies building pianos. Then the production got industrialized, the pianos got cheeper and more people could buy one. In the end the small companies where extinct and a lot of knowledge got lost. I think that cloning a synth and putting a good pricetag on it is not the same thing as designing it. You do pay Moog also for their product development. I always felt like supporting Moog leads to new exiting products. In the end, I just hope that Moog can continue to develop products, that are "worth cloning".
Great post. Sadly, most ppl only care about price. A lot of arguments in the video sound like apologies for ppl being fine with low morals when it suits them, calling out people who do care as moralists on a high horse. That one got my goat. Reminds me of people calling vegetarians judgmental, when in reality it’s passive guilt that makes people hate vegetarians. Heck, people used to shame millennials for not buying cars, as if it was an insult to their way of life. People complain about price, when it’s exactly buying cheap crap that drives the price of those ‘unattainable’ items up. Some products are boutique because customers turning to mass produced make it boutique. Anyway, Moog isn’t cheap, but it’s not expensive either. Save up, stop buying new phones, take a break from daily luxuries, sacrifice a little, buy second hand. Buy one moog synth instead of three clone synths. It’s not complicated..
You’re spot on about the moogs being a dream for a lot of people. I would have bought a DFAM but it was prohibitively expensive for me but I could justify waiting for the edge and reconciling that in my own head. I’d still love a moog one day but right now not able to afford one. Until then I’ll enjoy the cheaper almost-version
It's good for everyone... those who start with this Behringer and like this gear will eventually aspire for Moogs... othewise they might have never enter this super cool synth world. I have the Moog studio and I am definitively going for the Behringer DFAM, maybe two of them because I have G.A.S. attacks frequently.
I think there are moral issues. And one might discuss development costs. On the other had: I have synths as a hobby, spending a certain amount of time playing them at home. I don't gig, I don't really record, I don't make any money with it. I only have limited space. And limited budget. I found the subharmonicon enormously intrigueing. but also knew (or understood from in-depth) reviews I'd never use it as a main synth or play it a lot, so I quickly was at peace with never owning one. Same holds for Moogs over 1500 bucks. This Beringer offers me the opportunity to lay my hands on one given budget, time etc. I think, therefore, that this Behringer hardly will hurt Moogs sales. Likewise I think any serious musician (gigging, recording) will buy a Moog in the end when she wants Moog sounds. I even dare to believe that Behringers will rise demand for Moogs. Their prices are so far apart they are (in) separate markets.
@@lukehunnable I sent a bunch of midi loops out at super slow bpm so I could add rests, etc where needed recording into the Crave filling up all the banks. It's weird because the oscilators and other elements change characteristics when using the MIDI recorded sequences for some reason but it sounds really good.
It'd never even occured to me to want a Moog, I'm simply a hobbyist housewife that loves synth but also, like, food? Lol. But these are exciting to me, and not for nothing I love the pop of color instead of the black, masculine industrial vibe. Great rundown, I appreciate it.
I have just discovered your channel and I like how you present the information and the way you express your view on Behringer clones.. You have your opinion and freely share it but you try to maintain impartiality and you do not criticize those of us who buy Behringer equipment. I could never afford the pricier brand, classic synthesizers, but Behringer makes it possible. I have music in my brain that can only be expressed with those 70's analog sounds and Behringer prices allow me to finally put notes to keys and finish my masterpiece (at least a masterpiece to me) 😁
Thank you so much for recognizing that Lance! That is exactly what I am going for. The market is shifting this direction based on the economy. No shame on that at all. Your ears and wallet are your best guides in the end.
Can’t wait for Behringer to clone the Porsche 911 GT3 RS so I can finally afford one.
😅
😂 made my day buddy lol
I heard they just cloned your mom
@SOLDGREEN, She drives great 👍
ive been producing for almost 30years, worked for several big manufacturers, owned everything from aturia to yamaha. ive owned moogs. ive owned behringer. anyone who can say they can guess between a Moog Model D and the Behringer Model D is lying. its makes me laugh to watch those moog elitist bash behringer gear. no one cares what made that sawtooth, they care if the music is good or not. debating the 'ethics' of cloning is pointless and childish. you have a synth, i have a synth - who givea a shit what synth was used on a song? i applaud behringer for bringing AFFORDABLE and QUALITY products to the market. (as my Moog Model D is in for second keybed repair.)
Having also worked in the industry I 100% agree about people thinking they can easily hear differences. They can't.
I bought a MEMORY MOOG OMG THE PRESET SO I CAN SAVE SOUNDS IS THE GREATEST AND WHAT A MACHINE
I think it's gatekeeping in the industry, they want to make more expensive and hard to get into
@@rockanthems and lets you write in ALL CAPS!.. awesome for you
Shoutout to all the moog guy, that spend the equivalent of a small car on synths only make shitty fart noise music.
The music space is fun and expensive. Not everyone is flushed with cash. The focus on cloning is getting old. Behringer does nothing financially or physically to harm a Moog owner. Only emotionally. If a product allows someone to enter the space and have fun, I’m all for that versus the mess we see in our daily newsfeed. When we pump the brakes on worrying what others use and throttle our gas pedal of what we have and enjoy, we can get back to doing what brought us into this space. Good points made in the video.
You are wrong in everything you are saying cause you are watching it from the wrong point of view. The thing here is not damaging the already happy moog owners. We don’t envy you.
It’s damaging the whole r&d behind these products.
you don’t see that without revenues for moog there would be no r&d, and without r&d you wouldn’t have got the original products, and hence the moog clones from behringer.
Very low understanding of what product development is and that you need revenues to repay capital investment.
Competition in the liberal market should be about proposing alternatives that push your competitors to improve. This is just price dumping eating at their table
Now think that you’ve personally worked one year to design a product and it gets immediately copied. How does that feel?
“Behringer does nothing financially or physically to harm a Moog owner. ” correct, it hurts Moog employees. You know, regular Americans.
The music space is actually cheaper than ever... but we are getting bombarded with so many options and FOMO on that one particular sound that we need, that all the G.A.S. makes it seem unbearably expensive. It is definitely an entry point with the Behringer line-up into exploring and getting into all of this.
@@voidmusic549 damaging the R&D? I really do not think that all too many people who are actually in the market for a Moog, would buy the Behringer instead. Buying a Moog is, as many have mentioned, a more acquired taste to some extent... you get the quality, the haptics, the optics, and the last bit of refinement in sound, along with good customer service and the prestige of owning a Moog. No, I would say that these types of cheaper alternatives from Behringer will ultimately make the "hobby" bigger and ultimately provide more potential customers for more premium products/brands. Because we all know that some younger people are getting into this with little money and grow into the premium consumer eventually, and even people with more purchasing power sometimes need a lower entry point to get into something before they really commit....
@@voidmusic549 your pulpit speech falls on deaf ears and doesn’t change the fact that I and many others WILL buy Behringer clones regardless of the business r&d ethical debate because a lot of us are hobbyists and not paid musicians. If Moog wants to sell overpriced synths to rich folk then more power to them, but I’m not interested in their gear because I can’t afford it.
As an analog synth fan, and a Behringer fanboy, let me say this: if MOOG (or Sequential, or Roland, etc) was the only option for analog synths, I would own maybe one, simply due to price. But because Behringer is so freakin' affordable, I own half-a-dozen, and I know I'm not the only one. I think that makes the world a slightly more musical place as a result 😉
I think Moog and Roland are trying to tap into the affordable market now by making stripped down gear. I agree though, it’s all about making music and having fun.
Or having a lot of Synthesizers not being touched because you dont usually need 5 Monosynth with no preset memory for making music nowadays
@@andreasbreuss5907 yeah at least if you have a DAW. I know many Dawless that will use them all but they play them all at once.
Behringer is the reason I got into buying synths in the first place. I don't want to try working with a synth, see if it suits me when it costs me a kidney to buy a single one. I started with the TD-3-MO and the Crave. Now I own 12 Behringer synths / drum machines, 3 other brand machines and a bunch of effect pedals both Behringer and other brands. I have an X32 and just ordered a bunch of Behringer Eurorack modules. I now have a full (yet never complete lol) studio and still own both of my kidneys.
I would never have started with Synt without Behringer, now after 7 months in this hobby I spend a lot of money in many other brands, started with modular.
I’m not sure why we are not all mad at MOOG for ripping us off for years…
I have a mother and 2 DFAMS. I'm blown away by how good the Edge sounds. If I could go back in time, I'd have happily bought two Edges instead. Would happily have welcomed the MIDI functionality, instead of needing a Beatstep Pro to wrangle the DFAMs to do what I want.
Behringer isn't quite like the example you give regarding Amazon, Walmart, etc. Behringer own the entire supply chain - from chip manufacturing, R&D, to the actual factories that make the equipment and even distribution is controlled by them by deciding who gets their products through their 'super partners'. This is part of the reason they can offer things so cheaply.
Quite frankly, the Moog stuff isn't better built. It's made from very similar components and it's only 'assembled' in the USA. Their circuit boards aren't made in the US. They're printed in China just like everyone else's. Moog would like you to believe otherwise because they can charge more by saying 'made in the USA', but they simply assemble the various things at the plant in Ashville, NC. Sure, Moog's R&D, marketing, etc. is also US-based as well but their lower level employees were looking at unionizing very recently because of the level of pay their received versus the price of products. Moog use Chinese components - just like everyone else. The difference is, is that because it has a Moog badge on it with 'made in the USA' they charge a premium for their product. It's similar to designer clothing brands. Designer brands are made in the same factories as their cheaper competitors, but because it's 'designer' they can charge more for them. Moog isn't any different really.
The build quality of the Behringer synth stuff is rock solid. I own a bunch of it and don't have a single complaint. It sounds great too. I think you're fooling yourself if you think because you paid more, that Moog's versions sound 'better' and are better built. Starsky Carr has a great comparison video up on here in between the DFAM and the Behringer version and they sound identical.
Where I will agree with people in this whole debate regarding Behringer is the company's ethics. Personally I think they'd be better off building upon their Neutron line of semi-modular stuff than cloning these. Behringer is a much bigger company than Moog and can scale a lot easier and obviously provide them at a much cheaper price as a result. They've also gone after some people in public and it's been pretty tacky - like the whole cork sniffing debacle.
I can understand if you don't want to support Behringer based upon ethics, but on sound and build quality alone you're fooling yourself...
Appreciate your thoughts.
To trained ears, Moog will sound different unless Behringer use the exact same schematics for their clones. I did listen to the comparison video you are mentioning and it sounds 90% there. And there are some differences between the behringer clones and the Moog ones with some design choices like filters.
Other than perhaps a few parts like you mentioned which are still important, many of the Moog parts are sourced from the USA. I think it would be beneficial to do a video on this since many people ask this.
I am also aware of much of what you are talking about and have discussed them in previous videos. I cannot give an opinion on build quality for behringer other than what users say having used both. If you listened to my video I did mention Moog has their own issues and I have been vocal about them.
All in all, I appreciate your civil rebuttal.
Square wave is very very similar, triangle is a bit different. And the filter is the biggrst difference, in my opinion. Different doesn't mean better or worse. Personally, I prefer Moog ladder filter, but I don't think that alone change the sound so much to justify 3X price (again, my opinion). So it's Behringer for me.
Regarding "brand value", it reminds me of Apple, they're accused of the same. Strange enough, I don't see lots of people complaining about Microsoft stealing ideas from them, nonetheless this is a fact. And Apple computers cost more, but not 3X other Windows computers. And, the OS is different, and some people (like me) can really appreciate the difference, maybe some other not. Ah, Apple computers are "Made in California", but they make stuff in China and assemble in the USA. Very similar situation, different reactions from people though. Apart maybe from "dedicated" Apple users, which are often seen as hipsters. Like Moog owners.
i am a moog fan boy, but the bit of them controlling their supply chain is interesting to me.
Give me a break. No foreign company in China "owns" or "controls" anything. There's a reason Apple is divesting manufacturing in China.
I dont think these were even intended to be clones of the sound.
They clone the feature set, but they use their 3340 VCO clone (MemoryMoog, OB-Xa, various Prophets), which honestly is better than the Moog oscillators. Its a real pity they didnt expose more of its options in the crave esp, its the same osc as the Neutron.
I've just bought Moog DFAM & Subharmonicon. I don't feel like I've wasted my money. Perfect tool for synth jams.
Well those volca type rotary buttons are really terrible.
I think that the metal knobs that the Behringer have will make the materials more durable, we know that wobbly plastics stop responding after a year of being used. (I know this thanks to Moog Werkstatt, they are the same bad thing)
@@inperfectsequence7840my behringer shit breaks all the time, lucky I know how to fix it
The moog interface and feel is probably worth it even if it doesn't at the time
I own the sound studio 3 and am stoked that Behringer has come out with these. They can act as a gateway for exploring sound for folks. I plan to pick up the edge for the connectivity that the DFAM lacks and the peace of mind if I want to take it outside the studio to a friend's house. I would love to see Moog have a business model like Gibson and Epiphone, cheaper entry-level options, and the pro models made in Ashville but I don't think that would ever happen.
💯appreciate your thoughts man!
Moog should release a Mooginger Series where the clone behringers clones and source from china and sell same price.
I would love to see Behringer have a business model of designing original and innovative products
@@synthsamuraiproductions I believe Moog is more interested in preserving their integrity and their commitment to a strong American workforce than just profit.
Exactly. F Behringer.
A tiny proportion of these products end up in the hands of folk who actually making a day to day living out of using them. The rest of us are hobbyists, aspiring stars and enthusiasts. And no matter how interesting, dull, exciting or colourful the kit is, it's consumer electronics. Behringer, Roland, Moog, and many others understand the consumer electronics market very well. As per previous posts, just like any other consumer market.
Personally I have a budget for my hobby, and am happy that I have increasing choices of how to use it. My choices might be made on the basis of budget, ethics, beliefs or experience. Do I enjoy using my Erica and Moog kit more than a VST, or a Roland boutique, or a Behringer? Does it sound better? Is it more ergonomic, does it fit my workflow better? Or is it just a feeling? Does it inspire me more? Or do I feel more committed because I spent £600 instead of £200 on a piece of kit that does a similar job and produces a similar sound? Did I put more time and energy in to my Mother 32 than my Crave? It's a hugely subjective thing, hard to measure, and if it does the job for you at the time you're doing it and you can wave one hand in the air and feel good with your choice for your reasons then happy days, crack on, and have fun making music.
I love that these channels exist on TH-cam; they open our eyes to what's out there, give us a taste of new choices and open up debates and discussion. Peace out people x.
tighten up this comment bro come on lol
Moog and Roland should do like Fender and Gibson with Squire and Epiphone because there are many countries where it is impossible to buy their instruments: too expensive in Italy the average salary is 32,000 per year (so there are people like me who earn 20,000 per year). I could NEVER afford a set of Moogs. Well done Behringer filling a market niche
When I got my Crave I preordered it because it looked like an interesting original concept to me for a reasonable price. I love the synth, but it was a bit of a bummer when I found out that it is just a clone of an existing, available product.
I bet your wallet is happier! ;)
Well you could always just sell it, and then not afford the real version with its different sound & lack of USB!
Like a true connoisseur producer!
Its a feature clone, but the sound is different, it uses their clone of the CEM3340 VCO that Moog only used the the MomoryMoog, but Oberheim and Sequential used extensively.
I already have the Crave, Neutron, and K-2 . . . they work perfectly well, even have some features a bit beyond Moog, sound "close" enough for me. For the actual price of these items, it's a very reasonable option to consider.
Moog is an experience, as you put it
You can’t really point at one thing and say “that’s what makes them more expensive”
Because there’s not one “thing”
It’s the intangibles, how they make you feel, how they inspire you to explore and make music.
I once bought a boog, and while it sounded amazing, really quickly I felt it didn’t invite me or inspire me to make music, it was just a tool, but it wasn’t feeling like an actual music instrument
Synths like the grandmother or subsequent 37, they feel like a grand piano feels in the sense that they’re inspiring and rewarding in ways that go far beyond just the sound and can’t be clearly defined.
You feel the love of making music instruments that they put in, the special ingredient in the recipe that makes all the difference.
Some of the behringer clones might have a bit of that too, but none I’ve tried did, except maybe a bit in the RD8, but I ended up selling it anyways.
When it comes to moog, entry level ones didn’t necessarily have that either (looking at you, Sirin)
But as soon as you get to the mid level moogs, you’ll start getting that full on moog experience
And there’s no experience like that elsewhere that I’m aware of (granted I don’t have other high end analog synths like prophets or oberheim, I used to have a pro one that felt great and quirky in an ms20 kind of way)
I have subsequent 37 áñd have á great sound,but 6 boob model d is incredible,no speak english,all have a great sound,the good piano is a Roland v-synth ánd subsequent bbyee
Its not an experience. Its a tool. Manufacturer bias has made it "an experience". I am sorry, but I use my Behringer synths along with my OG synths as equals. They are tools to get a desired effect. Nothing more.
If you can afford Moog, get Moog. If you are just starting out, the Behringer stuff sounds great for the price.
@Nel Gabriel LMAO🤣🤣🤣I have Moogs and Behringers right next to each other. They all sound and feel great. You sound like such a tool
@@ericMT But this is the question. (and I mean this sincerely Eric). Why spend 2000 on a Moog, when you can get exactly the same sound (Starsky Carrs videos have proven it), for a 10th of the cost? And those that claim they can tell, would not notice the slightest difference in a mix!
Open your mind man!! I own a Moog Micromoog and tons of Behringer stuff! I am happy that Behringer exists! Cause Moog their prices are exaggerated!!
It’s expensive to make stuff in the US.
“Cause Moog their prices are exaggerated!!”
Tell that to their workers who want to feed their families and keep the lights on.
It's good that both exist and get supported. With one you support the innovation and with the other you support the competition which is important for fair consumer prices.
Competition is not cloning. Quite a distorted idea of what market is
@@voidmusic549 it's literally competition. You may hate the way they do it but these clones are gonna take market share away from moog, which is competition.
@@heimdall4148 if the US taxed heavily on non-domestic products, it would benefit all. In your model, it benefits China. Moog can lower prices, and go out of business or close their r+d. No new products, bcos it sure sounds like you’re not supporting “both”.
You think you can rely on others to support inventive companies, but there is a breaking point.
@@brmbkl it also benefits Germany in this case. And inovative products will always be sold especially when reverse engineering takes 2 years like in this case. It's the same with cars. Every car company buys cars from the competition and takes them apart to steal ideas. Same with phones. Apple invented the iphone but other company's stole the idea and also started making simular looking devices. In the case of behringer, they did the same. They bought a moog, reverse engineered the device and added some functionality that they thought was an improvement.
Having all the jacks on the right on the Moogs is much better
I have three Craves and going to buy also Edge and Spice. MIDI in/out/through is the killer feature in these devices. There are overlays and you can change knobs - so how these devices looks like is not important.
Say more about why the in/out/through is the killer feature?
Do you mean chaining them all together, or is there some magic that I'm missing??
@@TheWorld_2099 I use MIDI through with with splitted keyboard between MIDI channels and in addition to that each of Craves modulates each other with patch bay. You can get crazy results with this setup ;)
@@SmallWorldBigThings that sounds amazing…
I only have the one for now, and a Model D, but I can see getting another, or maybe the others in the series…I’m sure they’ll interact in great ways…
So you don’t use the USB MIDI?
@@TheWorld_2099 As the brain of my setup I have Synthstrom Deluge... so the USB MIDI is for different synths in my setup (I can connect 4 other synths with USB hub to Deluge). For three Craves I use DIN MIDI OUT which is also present in Deluge and additionally I use pass through function on Craves. A lot of cables... but it works ;)
@@SmallWorldBigThings that’s very very interesting..!
Yes, I’m struggling a bit with different ways to get midi in and out to my different kinds of setups.
Sometimes I make beats with the MPC X, and sometimes it’s in Logic (although I’m thinking about switching over to Ableton or Studio One), and I really don’t know how to switch back-and-forth between those two systems without pulling everything apart.
I use an old MOTU MIDI Timepiece, which is fine, but surely there must be better now
I got the akai apc64 controller ideally for ableton but it's a cross between like a novation launchpad/arturia beatstep/push but it has 1 midi in 2 midi out and 8 cv channels and it has a standalone sequencer so you don't have to have it connected to a computer and I can control 8 channels and save the sequences as projects and later import them to ableton. The apc64 made it incredibly easy to use the moogs that don't have usb or midi connectivity. I use it to control dfam, subharmonicon, B Pro-1 and, B Nuetron (can't wait for the proton). Anybody looking for something to control their gear with I highly recommend checking out the akai apc64 (you do not need ableton to use it but like most controllers it comes with a lite version)
Having the patch on the right is much better, but I just use longer patch cables for the Crave... can't wait to get the Spice and Edge and rack all 3 side by side on a wall shelf! I love the colors.
Moog is Moog, is like a Fender to guitar and bass.
But as good as Fender is, you can produce Fender sonics on far less expensive instruments. I think if you want a Fender or a Moog, that's fine, but the cost benefit analysis of Behringer vs Moog puts me in Behringer's court.
Uli Behringer's main stated mission was to make musical instruments affordable. That works for me!
The Moog studio 3 cost me way more than I wanted to spend, but it makes me smile whenever I walk past it. Such an aura ❤ I love my Deepmind 12 it is a very special machine. Behr should do more of that collaborative synth design.
Moogs are *assembled* in the USA.
The micro components that actually produce and modulate the sound are made in China.
In the very same district as components for Korg, Behringer, and for other products such as washing machines, microwaves, etc.
Analog music equipment is ancient technology. It's not sacred.
But creativity is. You will never see an Amos or Tatsuya working for Behringer, at least, not before they’re the only company still around.
@@brmbkl thousands of professional and amateur artists use behringer.
I have the crave, and I might get the edge, but also I might one day come out the pocket for the real Moog. Behringer’s are gateway synths and will expand the market not undercut it.
I totally agree
Couldn't agree more, had a crave got a Mother 32 after and was happy, conversely I got a DFAM and eventually let it go as I couldn't justify having the money tied up in it for what I got out, it's a very personal thing.
This whole Moog range looks like hipster bait. For 2k dollars you can get a 16 voice analogue poly from Sequential. And if I really wanted them, I'd take the cheaper Uli copies, have my fun and move on. I wish Moog designed a polyphonic synth that does not cost as much as a car.
That's because it is overpriced hipster bait. Fortunately i realized it early enough and sold most of mine when other manufacturers entered the marked. Unfortunately i still sit on a rarely used Sub Phatty with gooey side panels and sticky mod/pitch wheels (thx for using cheap plasticizer on a "premium" instrument) and a broken octave switch because they also used cheap switches on the board inside.
You think their entire line is hipster bait, not just these three Moog products?
I refuse to pay the markup for a Moog, even at 30% off. Glad Behringer is making this. Anyone whose mad should realize it's not taking away significant business from Moog. People who want Moogs, don't settle for Behringer.
Funny at First when I Purchased the Crave I didn't even know it was a Copy since they look totally different.... But I do love the USB and MIDI support on the Crave .. Would love a M-32 but the Price is out of My range !.. Would Love to see an Actual Teardown of Both Machines to see the Hardware difference !!
I don't know if this has already been said but moog is assembled in USA the boards come from China already populated and soldered
Your moog set up is beautiful. I can only afford behringer and love both of them
Thank you ☺️
System 55 / ARP 2600. I could never afford a Moog System 55 or ARP 2600 but with Behringer clones it is possible. They may not be the same, but the fun factor is there for 1/4 the price. Behringer clones are a great investment for musicians. Maybe later down the road (when you become a super star) you can purchase the real thing. I was once on the fence about Behringer but now I can have clones of the synth I could only dream about owning. How cool is that.
I have a Mother 32 and had a Crave. I was happy with the way that Crave sounded but the plastic buttons were really crappy in my opinion. The patch bay layout on the Crave was really unworkable for me.
Nah, they’re better than the moogs. Thinner, sound identical, more features, smarter layout. Ugly front panel design, but indistinguishable. It sound exactly the same
Im interested to know about durability of conponents because they will inevitably need a service in future. Is 1 more likely to have issues and is 1 harder to repair?
I’m planning on using the d ffam with spice..I really hope it sounds as good as the real thing as it sure doesn’t look as good
Moog products sound great and there's something about the heritage. I will own one in the future, though it must be one that's built in Asheville. But, with 2 kids in college, a Model D will have to do for now.
Boog Model D, I mean
The Moog Studio 3 is on sale for $1,699 thru the end of June.
I can't wait for the Behringer spice, and then I'll probably call it a day for these modulars.
I live outside the USA.my moog grandmother ended up costing me twice retail after fureardiabd customs and took months. I can have Behringers in three days at retail.
I don't like Behringer clones in general, but now that Moog has sold out, I feel like these are an exception.
You make really good points about the layout and patchbay thay I never would have considered. Thanks for taking the time to explain things in detail
Finally I got the complete moog SS3 and I really enjoy it!
But if I knew that a cheaper version is on its way I would have waited.
But now I'm settled and have no intention of selling to get a cheaper version. But yeah, I would have liked to save that money...
Thanks for the video
100% agree on your comments about the totality of the Moog brand. It’s an experience and that’s a part of what you pay for.
Bespoke screwdriver, too. Thanks for kicking off some interesting discussion in the comments.
Behringer makes creating totally affordable and gives an awesome sound. Can't wait to get my hands on the Edge 😊
Great guitar to have in the background during this conversation.
😂😂😂
These are excellent points i can see the passion in opinions and appreciate that
The phenomenon of when a current product is almost-cloned like this reminds me a little of the appearance of Japanese cars in a market previously dominated by American and European manufacturers. They were basically making very effective, well-priced vehicles that were heavily influenced by the models that were selling best in those regions. They were able to get a good market share by doing this but also have never displaced the manufacturers of the cars they were imitating.
Vey cool narrative, thanks Tiger!
Is Moog still hand built in the USA now its been bought out? I'm pretty sure they got rid of all the staff and are moving the production to Asia.
The Behringer units SOUND EXACTLY THE SAME and the build quality is excellent. I have owned both so I can say that from personal experience. So the question is are the Behringer units cheap or are the Moog units stupidly over priced because of the name? If they where £350 each no one would be bothered with the copies and they probably wouldn't have had to sell out to the dreaded "InMusic".
I have neutron and poly d. a perfect match for THAT base.
If the quality of sounds is the defining issue, just by Omnisphere with its 10,000 sounds
From Moog I will probably get the Subsequent 37 which is better for what I do. The low price of Behringher trio puts it in a category that I could get it just to explore new things.
they're not on the market yet... in Canada they will sell for around $350-$400 each + 15% taxes... not cheap !
STFU! That is something I'm quite interested in. I love my Moog for sure. But i would love another version of the subharmonicon.
the biggest difference for me is that I have been enjoying my subharmonicon for almost four years and behringer still hasn't been able to get the spice produced and out into any stores 😅
why get upset, we are heading forward, i salute Behringer, 🙏😃🎹 they provide good synths for poor people to explore, that's love I think, all people deserves a synth regardless they are rich or poor. 🙏 For sharing❤️
Good points all Around. As you said; capitalism in action.
As far as Behringer cost, indeed full on made in China/Asia
Moog stuff is ASSEMBLED in the usa, components, chips, boards etc are from China/asia as well
So besides the cachet of the name….. paying for sone higher wages. The “employee owned” thing priced to be a bust when Moog collapsed, there were bad actors at the top, this is covered elsewhere by justifiably bitter ex employees.
Anyway-glad there’s choice and a robust synth market
If you put them next to each other side by side on a Table, the patchbays also align. Problem solved.
Moog is just acquired by conglomerate inMusic, joining Akai and Alesis...
@5:06 I disagree. Right handers lose valuable tactile area that is best for tweaking. Love the ontop. Got my edge today and will be tuning in.
At last, a non venomous, straight to the point, calm and collected viewpoint. Thumbs up. So far I have two Pro 1s :-)
I sold my DFAM exactly because of the lack of midi. It just became too much of a PITA to use for anything other than just farting around.
I loved how it sounded though.
I love my dfam but, man it should have midi in out like beringer has,especialy for the price.But to be honest i dont miss midi at all,I just think for the price of moog product like dfam it should include this small cheap component
I'm Glad Berheriger didn't Purchace Moog, But they sure do own a few to reverse engineer.
And the double blow is Moog have now been taken over by InMusic, hence the price drops.
I took a behringer to a pawn shop and because their so lite the shop owner nearly questioned if it was actually a working machine ../maybe they could stick lead weights inside to make them feel more quality.. I’ll never choose behringer again I’d rather eat wallpaper
Behringer is literally a clone company. They basically have almost no original products. Even their original products are still based on other products. A lot of their clones are literally the exact same circuit as the real thing, sometimes only being modern versions of the components or a cheaper version. It honestly boggles my mind that people are upset by this or even surprised. I’m honestly surprised they haven’t released an oberheim clone of some sort especially since the new ob-8x came out.
As for the weird colors, think back to literally every big release they have done. Every single one eventually comes out in multiple color options. There are multiple 2600 color options. Multiple color options for all the drum machines and desktop units.
Now normal people can actually put together a cheap version of that monster “the mothership” that Lisa Bella Donna put together. When they released the system 15-55 modules in eurorack that let normal people use moog modular. When they released the Roland system 100 it let normal people feel like Hans zimmer with his house sized Roland 100 with more modules than even a retailer has for sale.
This is nothing new. Look at guitars. Fender. Squire. Then you even have cheaper brands than squire who produce cloned strats, teles, jaguars, jazz masters, p/j basses, etc. normal people simply cannot afford to spend the price of a nice used car on an instrument. Normal people barely have 300 extra bucks in their account for emergencies.
Well, the SPICE will be available in about 2 years from its announcement, as usual.
Speaking for myself, Behringer didn't poach me from Moog. As a synth noob, I won't spend $2k on a Moog. I will spend $199 though. And if I like this stuff, maybe I'll graduate to a Moog. Long term, this is good for the industry as a whole, including the premium brands. It's an entry point in the same way Epiphone and Squire are for guitarists.
Now that the Behringer "Studio trio" is out for a while, I would love to know how it sounds. I had Behringer gear in the past and it often sounds great fresh out of the box, but you notice a huge drop after a year or two. They can loose sound quality fast, a problem I have not experienced with any other gear.
I don't know if they still have that problem, though, as I haven't bought Behringer gear in a while for this reason.
The Subharmonicon clone is still not available. It’s also a hit and miss with these. I’ve had to return stuff due to poor QC or I just found something better. Definitely a personal decision.
@@Tiger.Arcade ah, I didn't realize the Spice still isn't out. Thx for the quick response.
I'm currently pondering getting a Moog Sound Studio and your videos are a great help to get a good impression of it.
@@theomnitorium7476 the sound studio is a lot cheaper than it used to be. Especially if you just by them all separately. And as I’m sure you’re already aware the differences between the clones and the originals are something to consider. Different filters, eurorack compatibility, etc.
@@Tiger.Arcade yeah, I pretty much stopped considering the Behringer option. It's not even about the sound, more about the design, since the clones can't be arranges as neatly together and they are, quite frankly, pretty ugly. The MSS3 is just a beautiful machine that I want to play when I look at it.
@@theomnitorium7476 for me it was aesthetic, quality, and legacy. I wanted a Moog semi modular and this was a perfect gateway providing a nice wide arrangement of sonic capabilities. Those along with the Mavis are the last products before the buyout.
I bought my Moog units individually over a few months and probably paid around £1,600 or £1,700 plus the side panels. I don't care what behringer make but I'm not buying it or supporting them. Anyone who thinks I'm just upset because I spent more is wrong, I'm not upset and I'd buy Moog again.
If you buy the behringer stuff, good luck and I hope you enjoy it.
Music is not for the rich only, poor people also deserve good machines in order to create good music .
If only Behringer could clone de Buchla modules it would be FANTABULOUS!!!
Oversynth Overlays are great
Yeah, my opinion is that it is basically 2 different markets. I have never heard, nor do i even expect to hear, of somone trading in all their Moog gear and canceling pre-orders so they can buy Behringer gear. I also can't see anyone trading in 12 Behringer synths to get a Moog. It's 2 different markets. I myself am a fan of both companies. I mostly have Behringer synths because it is what I can afford and I love having "vintage" synths that created so much of the music I grew up loving. I also own a Moog. It is my favorite synth. If there was a fire, it would be the one I grab first. Is that BECAUSE it cost more than any 2 of the others combined? Maybe 🤷 Just remember, the placeb effect is still an effect! When people think/feel that something is better because it is more expensive or rare, then it is. Thats how the brain works. To quote The Matrix "Your mind makes it real".
Behringer is the future. They are the next big brand. These synths will be worth money someday. I respect everything they put out, they sound phenomenal. All chips and silicon are coming from the same manufactures and out of the same mines. Behringer is for the musicians. Awesome video.
I watched this video when it first came out and YT suggested it to me again, which is good because we’re about to find out weather Moog’s quality stays the same now that they’re no longer employee owned. I’m sure nothing will change, but I can see the big company that owns Moog now trying to raise the prices even more… who knows
I have a crave and I think this fat sound is good for me, but Moog is amazing !!!
behringer also cloned the granndmother. i got all three moogs when they came out, and the grandmother, and i was bummed when they made the sound studio without making all those extras available to everyone like me that already owned them. not even the mixer. I think they should have sent all those extras to everyone that already bought them. or at least have a. package of the games, and screwdriver, etc. but no. .
i bought the Behringer D when it came out and i love it. also bought the cat and the wasp clone. I will never have 5 grand to to spend on a synth like these, so it's nice to have these, i have all three in a stand like the moog stand, and they all look nice together. If I had the choice to go back, I probably wouldn't have bought any of those moogs. I play my sunphatty and subsequent 37 much more. thanks for your take on this,
I’m with you. They should’ve sold those kits with the power supply/ mixer and included additional things like the card game as a separate option to purchase for those who didn’t buy the bundle.
I use my matriarch more for my professional recordings. I mainly use the sound studio for messing around on and tutorials. One day I might sell mine. Time will tell.
I have several moogs. I love the Moog sound studio. It is to expensive and that’s why where taken over. Usb midi should be expected as well as midi in and out. I will get the Behringer alternative because of the extra functionality. But I’ll get a Matrixbrute first. Price will not be the driver for me.
I’ve got the moog triad and a couple craves. The craves do not sound like a m32, they sound like a sequential with a ladder filter, not nearly as smooth. The edge I must admit sounds good, as it’s supposed to be a bit crunchy. I’ll be getting a couple of them, though I love my DFAM. Like the crave, I don’t believe the spice will sound like a Subharmonicon. All said, moog soundlab sounds noticeably better than behringer will, actually sounds like moog. DFAM is a drum synth that’s supposed to be played. It only needs clock. The people happy that the edge has midi as if that’s such a huge differentiation don’t get the DFAM at all.
Also, i was always ok with the price for the sound studio. It was the fact i didn’t want all 3 and there was no option for the subharmonicon and the m32 only.
The same I don’t need the DFAM, most of my stuff is sample based, big beat or hardcore, I have an old Novation DrumStation, and I’d go for an Arturia DrumBrute if the DrumStation dies. Just wanted those two to compliment my KSrack, DX200, with my ESi2000, might look at other items of gear.
Moog Synths are designed and assembled in the Moog factory. The original MOOG systems are still built and hand wired there but the components used are from all over. Parts like volume potentiometers, switches, power supplies etc. are made all over the world. As far as the circuit boards go I have seen all the tours of the factory and never seen a production line for circuit boards. Surface mount technology used in modern circuit boards uses robots for placement of the small IC Chips, resistors, capacitors and other components which are to small for accurate human placement. Then it is run through a solder bath to secure the components in place. Chips and the other components are from various countries also including China. BTW an oscillator is is not the main sound it's the Ladder Filter which was invented by Robert Moog. That is the sound of the MOOG and the only original part he patented I think. This filter has now been copied by many companies including Behringer. So for the price of the MOOG line I would hope that they would use the highest quality parts available that's all. I purchased three Mother 32's and the rack to mount them on. The sound was amazing but I sold them all to purchase Euro Rack Modules because of it's sonic versatility.
I'm glad you mentioned some of the manufacturing process and went into detail. Thank you. Similarly, there is no patent on a Eurorack, so in theory Behringer could have mounted the Crave, Edge etc like they do with the Model D, Neutron etc in a Eurorack mountable case like that. Why they didn't, I assume, was to placate any dissent on 100% plagiarism.
No-one gives a crap about why IBM PC clones dominated the PC market from 1990 onwards other than they now have a reasonably priced PC and if you really want to you can build one yourself. Similarly in the synth market components such as ladder filters or 900 series oscillators have been available for decades and used in modular.
The faux outrage from the barely literate sounds to me like some sort of infantile desire for cred when in fact it's just capitalism and we are all in its throes.
Wouldnt it be great if they put they Spectravox into production?
From what I’ve heard , the DFAM clone doesn’t come close to the original. The low end doesn’t sound as rounded and the top end kind of fizzled.
i hope that inmusic now own's moog we can get a cheaper sound studio for us poor people with the moog sound
I feel like Moog is the Apple Mac of synths for sure, you get the whole luxury experience. I get that. I just go my Crave yesterday it’s my first synth and it feels really good and sounds really good looking forward to getting the Edge. Maybe I save up for Moog one day 😂. Great video and points cheers 🍻
Teenage Engineering is the real Apple pf synths lol, moog is just doing their things
@@bosnianlain yeah... true I can see that :-)
Watch Lisa Bella Donna's Ascension video.
I can't afford that. But, I love it. I've not prioritized $100K for synthesizers.
Like amp sims vs tube amps, no one can tell the difference in a mix.
I have a Crave and am ordering an Edge. When the Spice is released, I'll get that too.
Great to hear this view from someone who invested in Moog, but recognizes some cannot do that and this is a way for them to get a taste of these joys. As for CV I/O on the top as mentioned they are meant to be set side by side. Perhaps the thinking was you would set something like their 280hp case "behind" them for eurorack expansion? Smells more like lawsuit avoidance to me...
Synths where always expensive. Like pianos. At the beginning of the 20th century, there where many small companies building pianos. Then the production got industrialized, the pianos got cheeper and more people could buy one. In the end the small companies where extinct and a lot of knowledge got lost. I think that cloning a synth and putting a good pricetag on it is not the same thing as designing it. You do pay Moog also for their product development. I always felt like supporting Moog leads to new exiting products. In the end, I just hope that Moog can continue to develop products, that are "worth cloning".
Great post.
Sadly, most ppl only care about price. A lot of arguments in the video sound like apologies for ppl being fine with low morals when it suits them, calling out people who do care as moralists on a high horse. That one got my goat.
Reminds me of people calling vegetarians judgmental, when in reality it’s passive guilt that makes people hate vegetarians. Heck, people used to shame millennials for not buying cars, as if it was an insult to their way of life. People complain about price, when it’s exactly buying cheap crap that drives the price of those ‘unattainable’ items up. Some products are boutique because customers turning to mass produced make it boutique. Anyway, Moog isn’t cheap, but it’s not expensive either. Save up, stop buying new phones, take a break from daily luxuries, sacrifice a little, buy second hand. Buy one moog synth instead of three clone synths. It’s not complicated..
You’re spot on about the moogs being a dream for a lot of people. I would have bought a DFAM but it was prohibitively expensive for me but I could justify waiting for the edge and reconciling that in my own head.
I’d still love a moog one day but right now not able to afford one. Until then I’ll enjoy the cheaper almost-version
It's good for everyone... those who start with this Behringer and like this gear will eventually aspire for Moogs... othewise they might have never enter this super cool synth world. I have the Moog studio and I am definitively going for the Behringer DFAM, maybe two of them because I have G.A.S. attacks frequently.
Wich Epiphone Guitar in the Background is this? What Modell Number? Thanks! Bro ❤️
How does the edge interact with the M32?
Your head has butterfly wings :)
I think there are moral issues. And one might discuss development costs. On the other had: I have synths as a hobby, spending a certain amount of time playing them at home. I don't gig, I don't really record, I don't make any money with it. I only have limited space. And limited budget. I found the subharmonicon enormously intrigueing. but also knew (or understood from in-depth) reviews I'd never use it as a main synth or play it a lot, so I quickly was at peace with never owning one. Same holds for Moogs over 1500 bucks. This Beringer offers me the opportunity to lay my hands on one given budget, time etc. I think, therefore, that this Behringer hardly will hurt Moogs sales. Likewise I think any serious musician (gigging, recording) will buy a Moog in the end when she wants Moog sounds. I even dare to believe that Behringers will rise demand for Moogs. Their prices are so far apart they are (in) separate markets.
I would've gotten a DFAM is it had MIDI. The crave I hated until I used it with MIDI from the DAW.
Midi FROM the daw?
@@lukehunnable I sent a bunch of midi loops out at super slow bpm so I could add rests, etc where needed recording into the Crave filling up all the banks. It's weird because the oscilators and other elements change characteristics when using the MIDI recorded sequences for some reason but it sounds really good.
It'd never even occured to me to want a Moog, I'm simply a hobbyist housewife that loves synth but also, like, food? Lol. But these are exciting to me, and not for nothing I love the pop of color instead of the black, masculine industrial vibe. Great rundown, I appreciate it.
Thank you 😊
Totally agree 😄
I’m really really really tired of all black synths myself. I love gf explore too.
Mmmh I'm just too POOR to buy a Moog, but in fact I love this orange box that I craved for long ❤️
"makes you wonder whats going on". I guess we know now :/ Thats for the vid.
I have just discovered your channel and I like how you present the information and the way you express your view on Behringer clones.. You have your opinion and freely share it but you try to maintain impartiality and you do not criticize those of us who buy Behringer equipment.
I could never afford the pricier brand, classic synthesizers, but Behringer makes it possible. I have music in my brain that can only be expressed with those 70's analog sounds and Behringer prices allow me to finally put notes to keys and finish my masterpiece (at least a masterpiece to me) 😁
Thank you so much for recognizing that Lance! That is exactly what I am going for. The market is shifting this direction based on the economy. No shame on that at all. Your ears and wallet are your best guides in the end.
Let me know when the overlays are out :DDD
✌️😂
Great, reasonable and fair! Well done!
Really appreciate that, thank you for watching! ✌️