13 Glorious Gaming Exceptions to My Personal Preferences (Sunday Sitdown)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Jamey discusses types of games he generally doesn't get excited about...and 1 huge exception in each category.
Become a champion of this channel: stonemaier-gam...
16:38 Good Lord! Your cat just materialized from the Holodeck!!!
Portal to the cat dimension opens up at 16:38...
voivoed I definitely went back to watch the cat portal multiple times😂
Lol
Heavy text on components that are across the table....I'll say it: it SUCKS!
That really drives me nuts.
-D.D. O'Brien
PS. These Sunday videos are never too long... no apologies needed- keep em up!
Yeah, I try to avoid that at all costs. :)
I don't like direct player interaction, but I really enjoy Scythe. I just never attack anyone. The puzzle and the theme keeps me engaged.
I finally came to the conclusion, right or wrong, that you won't design or publish games with exceptions...your goal as a publisher is to refrain from clunky mechanisms. Which should be the goal of all publishers.
I don't enjoy Area Control games. I'll put up with Small World, but I'll avoid it if I can. So I was really surprised how much I enjoyed the republished game, Dune. Granted I was playing the Bene Gesserit, which may have been a strong factor since I could still participate in the game without having to watch my troops die.
Man I think all these things are just you have had bad experiences with those mechanisms. Probably lethargic for you to get out in juxtaposition of your favorite mechanism videos. Still able to spin these into times you did have fun with them. Im nervous about Innovation bc you may like it but you may hate it 😂 🥵
I'm not sure about exceptions or preferences. I tend like any game that has a new mechanic or a mechanic with a new twist - but it doesn't matter what type of game it is. I suppose the only thing I don't like are legacy games - I just can't get over the permanence. Other than that I'll try any game though, as long as it has interesting mechanics.
Regarding your first comment about direct conflict, another game that solves the issue is King of Tokyo. Lots of combat but players cannot chose the target. If you are in Tokyo, you attack everybody. If you are not in Tokyo, you attack whoever is in Tokyo. Simple and effective.
That's a great point!
I find that my exceptions come down to theme. I will try games with mechanisms I don't enjoy if I like the theme. I will avoid games with mechanisms I normally love if the theme falls flat for me.
Interesting! I thought about mentioning theme here, though I couldn't think of any themes that were such a turn off that I wouldn't be interested at all in playing them. Can you think of a theme you generally don't enjoy and an exception to that preference?
Had to watch part 16:38 to 25:10 three times, because I like cats and I noticed I didn't listen...
I like how Biddy emerges from the light like some magical creature.
I've been curious about your favorite take that game, now I know it is grimm forest.
What do you think about survive? I like that it doesnt have rounds.
I definitely like when any game ignores the traditional round structure! :) I've only played Survive once, and I recall enjoying it.
With Kemet, I guess you more gravitate towards what you've said in the Kemet video. A guilt free combat system. So, no harsh consequences in Combat. You benefit from combat, but it doesn't cause much havoc if you lose. Its just pure fun to see who wins.
I'm not fond of area control (specially at 2 players, Its immediately discarted) but GOLD WEST has it and its my number 1 favorite game.
Scythe was the board game that introduced me to board gaming, and now it's my no.1 after the 3rd expansion, The Rise of Fenris.
I'm honored to hear that! I love hearing when one of my games opens up the world of gaming to someone. :)
Hey Jamie,
What do you think of five tribes? I tend to not like the chaos too, but for some reason I like that one.
John: For me, Five Tribes is an example of a game in which it's nearly impossible to plan your turn in advance, and that's a problem, because you're presented with a lot of options when it becomes your turn. I like the turn order mechanism, though!
Jamey Stegmaier This is also my reaction to Five Tribes. My other criticism is that near game end options become so limited that it isn’t interesting anymore.
I think Blood Rage has the best combat of any game. It's designed in a way that people wants to fight and can still be satisfied after defeat. In other combat oriented games you are happy to just sit and watch your neighbours go to war on each other but in Blood Rage it's more like: Are you guys fighting?? I'm joining!
we all have our own preconceptions and definitions about ourselves and the world which, some may be true, but some are based on the limits of our own knowledge and experience. I’m on your side with pretty much all the game types you mention, although ironically for me WP isn’t a big draw, but really I don’t have a huge experience with them either to be honest. I think having agency was one of your main, recurring themes, especially maybe meaning agency in decision making and realization of building something/reaching goals. I’m going to have to go back and look at Yedo, b/c I think I kinda liked the design, but can’t recall. Punishing co-op games; interesting, I think it’s about group formation and morale about surviving/trial by fire.
Your list, fyi: (and my game selection below)
Direct combat
Action Checklists
Hidden Movement
Phases
Party Games
Text from Across the Table
Take That
Elaborate Set-Up
Tactical Combat
Stock Games
Punishing Games
Co-op punishing
Dungeon Crawl
Chaos between Turns
,,, I would say for me, probably the one defined as most outside my normal wheel house would be Tash Kalar. It’s basically an abstract game with kind of a ‘take that’ and also a wizardry-fantasy them. All those things are usually non-starters for me (I like some abstract for sure, but in small doses). But there is something about the originality of play in this game, and the puzzlyness of the cards to conjure creatures, considering the objective cards, and trying (often futilely) to plan ahead for the next play is very satisfying. From all my online battles I’m not actually very good at the game, but there’s something about building up and executing the right arrangements that’s very satisfying & cool, it has an odd balance to it. I just find it highly original packaging and realization.
The thing about text on cards is my one major gripe with The Grimm Forest. It's a light, gateway style game which is why I got it. But I noticed when playing for the first time (especially with new gamers), everytime someone got a new friend card we had to stop the game so they could decide whether or not to keep the card or give it away, which meant they had to read EVERY friend card on the table to make that decision. And with the audience that this game is designed for, I feel like it really slows down the game and adds a layer of complexity that's not totally necessary... especially if multiple people get new friends in the same round which happens often.
16:37 suddenly...cat!
Great vid. This series has really made me think more about game mechanics, and has been a godsend in helping me narrow down my collection (or at least inform and control my acquisition disorder lol).
Thanks Adam! Is there a game in your collection I haven't mentioned that you'd highly recommend?
Jamey Stegmaier You've got me stumped lol. You've already directly addressed or mentioned so many of my favorites.
The best I can do is throw some nostalgia at you. I remember playing scotland yard as a kid, and there was another game that I loved. It was probably my favorite game of all time until I had my own bank account and access to bgg.com.
Basari. It's paper, rock, scissors with trading. Very simple, but after you play a couple times there's a meta-game of trying to read the other player's minds that very few games have ever recreated for me. Especially in 20-30 minutes.
Another very interesting Sunday Sitdown topic, Jamey! I'm really enjoying these videos. :)
While we seem to share many gaming preferences, I find that I'm also willing to make exceptions to my preference based on game length. I don't particularly care for really random games but something like Camel Up is short enough but I'm willing to "forgive" all the randomness. If the game lasted 90-120 minutes... no thanks!
As far as having to remove cards (and tiles) based on player count, I think Castles of Made King Ludwig would be a good exception. :)
I don't particularly love games with an Auction element to them. If it's a pure Auction game it can be okay, but I don't really love bidding for turn order (Railways of the World - still a great game, but I don't care for that part of it; Isle of Skye has a large auction focus, but I like the tile placement aspect more etc.)
My exception to that is Power Grid. The auction section is a large part of the game, but I think the tightness of money and then the fact that the turn order changes in terms of who can buy the resources, which fluctuate in price, makes the auctions have a far more considered element to them.
I received Scotland Yard for Christmas ‘85 as a ten year old. Although I had grown up on board games before that time, that game really ratcheted up my interest and made me a board gamer for life. Happy to see someone else with that same sentiment....
Have you played Dinosaur Island, Jamey? It's a game that thematically benefits from phases in my opinion, curious if this falls into an exception for you.
Interesting thoughts Jamey! To share a few with your premise, I vowed I would never own an abstract strategy game. I found i never got anything from them. Yet now I own Reef and Azul because of exceptions as well. And cooperative games. Yet I too own Mechs vs Minions and now Street Masters from the Sadler brothers.
That was a great half hour of discussion :)
Hey Jamey, thanks for mentioning the friend mechanic in Grimm Forest. I love the "take-that" of giving someone a different friend. When we've played it, it's never been frustrating because it's like trying out and using a new unique power.
You should also do a similar video but with reversed situation (games/genres of the games that you love but have exceptions that you do not enjoy).
That's a tricky one...it's harder to put a positive spin on that. :)
Now that I think about it, you are right! Ignore what I said :)
Interesting idea for a video. For me, I often find random elements in board games to be quite frustrating: things such as dice rolls influencing combat is a big one. But the tailored RNG in Scythe encounters and mat selection are refreshing rather than irritating.
Really interesting video. I think we have many peeves in common, except for if someone says "dungeon crawler" I'm the first to the table.
I remember enjoying Scotland Yard as a kid, but I have not had a chance to revisit that one. I may have to do so! I'm excited to hear you liked Yedo, as it's been on my wishlist but I was worried about the punishment element.
Off the top of my head: Text - I may make Ex Libris an exception. My mom just surprised me with it, and the text thing is a problem, but the gameplay was pretty fun, so it's probably a keeper.
What's your favorite dungeon crawler, Steven? Are there any that strike that nice balance between combat and other options?
I would probably say Dungeon! - but using our home brew rules (we've created cards similar to the wizard's spells which are special abilities for each character type). Some of those allow avoidance of combat, but the game rules are really all about combat. It's not a sophisticated game, but it's got nostalgia going for it. Our game group does Zombiecide. But probably my favorite semi-co op dungeon crawler, if that's what it is, would be Betrayal at Baldur's Gate. That one is mostly combat too. I think a lot of that style game has been looking to be an RPG without the need for a DM, but it's a lot easier to automate combat than it is to automate the non-combat parts of RPGs (puzzle solving, creative solutions, etc.).
Awesome! I appreciate the recommendations.
Yea, in Kemet especially, you just attack whoever is most optimal...usually after someone attacks someone at a temple and is weakened or has no more movement abilities left - you atke advantage of that.
I feel you in the action selection menu. Some games have like 20 options and that makes the game hard to teach! Dead of Winter is a great game but there are tons of actions to explain
I'm totally binging and loving all your videos, and your honesty and depth of insight in each one of them.... on the part about party games, I think I would recommend Pictomania to you! It's a beautiful game with a super interesting push pull / balance mechanic that wants you to be good at drawing enough to communicate something useful, but also fast enough to get the point across so you can score points. It's all around fun just like telestrations for me because even if you're terrible at drawing, it can be lots of fun, and everyone's drawing at the same time, so no one person is in the spotlight. Highly recommend this one! (my fiance bought me this game for my birthday haha! So maybe there's a little bit of bias there, but no really, we love this game. and she often makes fun of how terrible at drawing she is and still loves it)
ps. Wingspan is one of our favourite games to play over the past year of COVID lockdown. Thank you to you and Elizabeth Hargrave (and the artists) for the wonderful work you put into that game.... It is such a joy to play, hold, feel, touch... just the experience as a whole is transporting and relaxing. You talk about this in a few of your other videos... I find the intersection of great theme, elegant (and maybe complex through discovery) design, and beautiful components is what make a great game for me. All your other games feel like they hit this crucial sweet spot for me. Hopefully I'll be able to try Viticulture soon!
Thanks for the recommendation! I'll check it out. :)
Reading the cards from across the table is one of the downsides to Wingspan for me
Sure, I understand that. We tried to address that by doing several things:
1. The icons are usually more important than the text on bird cards for acquisition purposes, so you can just ignore the text.
2. You can draw from the top of the deck.
3. We designed the bird mat so it's really easy to pick up cards off the mat and look at them more closely.
Jamie, if you don’t like a player checklist reference card, but your exception is Forbidden Desert, then what would be a better way to show or have people remember the things they can do during a game? Besides really learning the rules?
A better way--in my opinion--is to use a different action selection system then a checklist. Look at Scythe, any worker placement game, Concordia, etc.
I think LeHavre does a great job of scaling based on the cards you include for a game.
My wife and I don't like Take That games as we play mainly together with just 2-player but Karmaka is a great Take That game that we both enjoy because of the Karma mechanism, where what you do to your opponent in your current life (cards you have played against them) will hunt you back as you must offer those cards to your opponent for their next life (their next hand of cards). So this simple game is quite a challenge as you really need to balance what and when you play these cards against your opponent, especially these powerful and/or mean cards. You should try it.
Thanks for the recommendation! I like the idea of "take that" coming back to haunt you.
Not particular fond of games with a gazillion actions/options a player can do, right from the beginning (as opposed to building them up over time). It usually causes long startup explanation times and has players focussing on their own tableau/player area to figure out what to do next (instead of enjoying other players' turns and interacting with them).
I agree! I like games that either give you a few simple actions for the entire game (actions that each provide interesting choices within them) or games that start simple and expand in terms of the number of actions over the course of the game (Lords of Waterdeep does this particularly well).
I usually don't like cooperative games because they either have quarterbacking (which means most people aren't actually playing) or artificial restraints on communication (which means I'm only playing the game, not also hanging out with my friends).
I've found two exceptions; one specific, and one workaround category.
Captain Sonar is fun to play with my friends. This does have a limiter on chatting: the need for fast action. But the game is quick and intense and you feel like you're getting to know what your friends are like under pressure and it's a blast to look back on afterward (as long as all players understand the game well enough).
Solo games with friends. I learned while playing Friday that when my friend sat next to me and we started puzzling things out together, that I LOVE playing this way. It may even be my favorite way to board game. I've always loved discussing game state and options and choices with my friends while playing more than the actual playing. This approach reminds me of playing a puzzle video game with other friends in the room tossing out suggestions. It's such a fun way to spend time with your friends, and since one player is actually playing, when there's a disagreement, it's clear that they have the final say. But that just means you can say "I told you so" if they ignore your good advice (if you're that kind of person).
That's really interesting, Anthony. I wonder if other solo gamers can relate to that. I'd like to try it.
Really interesting that you listed ‘action menus’ as a no-no but later list Clans of Caledonia (the first one that sprung to mind) as a game you like. Interested in if I’m misunderstanding what is meant by action menu or if there’s specific reasons you can get over/around that? I’m a huge fan of Clans/Gaia Project/Terra Mystica so particularly invested ;)
You know, a friend asked me the same thing about Terra Mystica today. I think the reason it doesn't bother me there (same with Clans of Caledonia) is that most of the actions have a sense of place to them. Like, there's a specific place where you use the market action and a specific place where you pass, that kind of thing.
Jamey, I would like to know since hidden movement isn't a great thing for you due to lack of knowledge. Would the traitor idea also put you off since you do not know even though it's thematic?
In the traitor games I've played, I like the tension provided by the possibility of a traitor.
Most co-operative games don't allow for a lot of breathing room to relax. They just challenge you relentlessly. I just want the balance of fun and tension instead of it becoming so stressful that I'd rather play something else.
I love how watching this really highlights how your own games keep to the things you like, which is how a publisher should be.
I mostly try to stick to my own "rules," though there are some exceptions. :)
I've heard you mention the Action Checklist mechanic and agree with your sentiments. Pandemic and especially Legacy versions suffer from this. How would you "solve" that problem for a game like Pandemic specifically?
Good question. There are a bunch of different ways it could be solved, but the simplest (in my opinion) would be to give each player 4 action tokens and a player mat that displays all of the options. That's still essentially a menu, but at least it gives players a full visual and a way to track how many actions they've used. If I wanted to deepen the action-selection mechanism a bit, I would give different players a different number of spots for each action. So, for example, maybe you have 4 slots next to the standard "move" action, potentially allowing you to use all 4 of your actions there, but my mat might only have 2 spots there.
Whilst I'll agree that action menus are an inelegant way to remind players what's available ans that having the selection of actions as a mechanic in ans of itself,
how do you strike a balance against component excess/publishing costs?
Additionally, does that mean you're kind of against Card Rivers if they are too detailed?
In general, I would say that's a good place to have cards that describe what they do in icons instead of (or in addition to) text.
Interesting video. Thank you for sharing your opinions on games. When you say that you don’t like stock games and mention Clans of Caledonia, do you mean that you do not like games like Archipelago or Navegador that have a market with variable prices for goods, or do you mean that you do not like games like Imperial or 18XX, where you buy and sell shares in companies? Or both, like in Arkwright?
I would say both. Though I'm more open to games in the "variable prices manipulated by players" category than games where you're in the dark as to what the exact prices are. I will say that I really admire the design of Stockpile, though.
that's interesting. I personally like Clans despite the price manipulation, because there's no way you can adapt to the sliding prices: if you have a milk-heavy production, and milk is low, well you can't really decide to do something else with it...
Hi Jamey!!!! when did you do a solitary mode for Euphoria the board game with an automa...thank´s ;)
Morten is working on it--it'll be in the expansion. :)
good!!!!
I played one game of Yedo. I spent most of the game building up to finishing a black card (the most difficult to accomplish) then on the final round when I had everything ready to go, an event came up that blocked the area I needed to go to finish my objective and there was nothing I could do. I lost by half of what my objective would have scored me and then I sold Yedo that week haha.
For me Yedo was too random for how long it is.
Production advice; an overhead microphone might be a good investment.
Thunk thunk thunk all through the video was hard to put up with.
Content was fine.
I don't care for dexterity or games with a timer. I can't think of any right now that would be an exception.
Have you played Flip Ships?
No, but I will check it out. I'm always interested to try new things.
I don’t like dexterity games either, but I really love Pack & Stack. Maybe it’s that the dexterity part isn’t timed, and is mostly about having really good visualization skills.