Asymmetry in Games (Sunday Sitdown)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Jamey discusses asymmetry in a number of games, including Scythe, Raptor, Stronghold, Netrunner, Santorini, Small World, Smash Up, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Imperial Settlers, Gloomhaven, Rex, Twilight Imperium, Space Cadets, Marco Polo, Terra Mystica, Spirit Island, Vast, Cry Havoc, and Root.
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One very interesting variation on asymmetry is Onitama where you each have two completely different possible actions, but once you use one of those actions, it goes to your opponent after their turn.
Another interesting take on asymmetry is Path of Light and Shadow, where you can choose the path of mercy or cruelty and the cards have very different abilities depending on which path you take and how far along that path you are .
oooo I love the idea at the end.
In Captain Sonar there are two teams and each player within a team has a very different role so it's somewhat close to Root or Vast in that regard. A few other games with some big special powers come to mind - Cosmic Encounter (alien race powers and some of them can be game changing), Samurai Spirit (that's coop). Sidereal Confluence and Clans of Caledonia got some bigger and asymmetrical staring powers as well.
7 Wonders may also count - different starting boards make everybody's goals different as well. Also, there is a whole separate category of social dedication games with very different roles from Avalon and One-night Werewolf to Deception and Murder in Hong Kong - but these might be too different from the topic focus.
I enjoy the Sunday sit downs hope there's more to come keep up the great work. One thing I will say that I appreciate how active you are with the community and still do board game design/publisher. Would you suggest any books to help with game design that helped you in your journey? Or anyone could answer if you have any good suggestions?
Thanks Drake! I have a list of resources (no books per se, but lots of resources) on our website to help you along your game design journey: stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter/how-to-design-a-tabletop-game/
Watergate is a really good asymmetric 2-player game with an interesting mechanism and completely different victory conditions.
I don't really see the same meaning for the terms asymmetry and variable player powers (VPP). For me, Scythe is more of a VPP type of game because although the powers are very meaningful to the decisions you make, the final goal for every player is the same; collect resources, build your engine, become powerful and popular, and get stars. If you take, for instance, a game like Fury of Dracula, in which you have a player taking the role of Dracula and the others being hunters, you can see clearly the presence of asymmetry because the objective of the game is different for the Dracula. This is just how I see the concept, which is definitely not that important because it has no impact on the game, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on this =D.
There are terms for the distinction; soft and hard asymmetry. Variable player powers could be soft, since you are playing by the same rules but have different abilities etc whereas Vast is hard since you are all playing completely different games.
That elevator pitch for a heist game sounds great 👍🏻
Not heist but there was a game about an asymmetric car chase that was on Kickstarter earlier this year called Getaway Driver: boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/253719/getaway-driver
Literally just wishing someone would compile a list of asymmetry in games -- thanks for posting!
Cosmic encounter is my favorite asymmetrical game. The alien powers really change and alter the rules. With their being over 100 aliens, this game has tons of flavor and different asymmetry each game.
Definitely! I can't believe I didn't mention that one. :)
Great vid Jamey! I would love a completely asymmetric game from SM ;)
Heist theme would be pretty cool. You could even play with multiple player count by having different main character. One player being the head of the police department which would come into play after 2 turn to let the robber a head start. One or two robber with different task during the game like controling the hostage, getting in the vault, negociation, etc. Maybe someone who plays as a police in civilian within the bank aka McClane :) I think there is a lot of room for this kind of game.
I really like the idea of having one character feel a bit like McClane! :)
I love the co-design idea! It made me think of a fantasy novel from the early 90s called Black Trillium. It was co-authored by Marion Zimmer Bradley and two other authors, where each of them wrote the primary story of one of the three main characters. It wasn't exactly a huge success, but I enjoyed it and found the voices of the characters distinct enough from one another that I was able to recall the title and one of the authors nearly 30 years later. I had to look up the other two - Julian May and Andre Norton.
That's a fascinating literary experiment! It's impressive that it made such a mark on you after all that time.
Great video! lol the moment i realized that YOU designed scythe, I instantly subscribed.
Thanks! Indeed, that's me. :)
Thanks for the video, Jamey! :) :)
Cute chubby cat
Did you ever figure out that two player heist game? Sounds so cool!
Thanks! No, I haven't ever given it a try. :)
I love asymmetry in games. The challenge is keeping game balance. Here are some game mechanics that I enjoy that can also be useful ways to balance the asymmetry in the game: auction, bidding , trading, voting, or take asymmetry to the extreme by giving each player a different win condition (e.g. Villainous).
One that deserves a mention as well as it is a bit similar to Twilight Stuggle, is "1960: the making of a president". Each player plays with the same cards, but the red cards benefit the republican (more), the blue cards benefit the democrat (more); both during the normal rounds and during the debate. Also, some states are "at the core" republican or democrat, so the players have to approach those states differently; both during the normal rounds and on election day (on which they may want to turn some key states).
I know they are not your kind of games, but there are tons of examples of asymmetry on wargames. The COIN series are one of the best examples: games of 4 factions (2 in Colonial Twilight), each of them with 4 different actions and 3 or 4 different subactions, and different winning conditions. And you also have Combat Commander, where each army has its own deck of cards.
Your last post about GMT's P500 made me think that I'm sure you would appreciate the great game design ideas of much of GMT games, but they are hard to learn and usually very long to play, two things you don't seem to like.
Anyway, great video!
One is making a dungeon/building. The other developing The thief's/adventures.
This sounds like a perfect Shadowrun/cyber punk theme game.
With the Shadowrun/cyber punk theme you could work, the matix/cyber space into the heist game. Have a mix of physical and hacker working together for the hiest.
Thank you for the video. I think pretty much all solo games are asymmetrical. If you think how you play against an Automa which usually is more powerful than you and which usually breaks most rules of the game. Similarly co-op games like Pandemic are asymmetrical because you fight against the game itself, basically like an Automa in a solo game.
I love the asymmetry in games like Terra Mystica and Terraforming Mars. I really want to play with each race/corporation and I think the replayability increases 10x by doing this.
I also like custom decks that are thematically integrated for a character (like Sentinels). The Grimslingers expansion introduced this and I think it was a big improvement to the game. I am still waiting to play through the campaign though. Soon.
I played a KS Heist game that fits your description (though not the design side of it) . Google tells me it was Perfect Crime: A Bank Heist boardgame for 2-5 players. I did not care for it so there is room for another one :)
Good topic Jamie! Asymmetry is super cool. I think it works especially well in the 2-player space since different win conditions/mechanics are easier to grasp when there are only two roles. Raptor, Claustrophobia, and Shadespire are my three favorite 2-player games and all use asymmetry. Cthulhu Wars and Vast are my favorite multiplayer asymmetric games. Cthulhu Wars has that quality you describe where every faction feels overpowered and you still feel a little jealous of the crazy abilities other players have. I’m excited to try out Root sometime! Only hearing good things about it.
A favorite 2P asymmetrical game of mine is Star Wars: The Card Game (lcg by Fantasy Flight, designed by Eric Lang).
The victory conditions are asymmetrical, and the deck construction is asymmetrical and yet, more often than not, the games end up tight/relatively close with lots of tension. A mark of a great asymmetrical game: each side still has aple opportunity to win.
Glad you mentioned Villainous. Everything about this game is asymmetrical. Player-specific card decks, unique locations (action combos), and unique win conditions. Very thematic!
I really like asymmetry that the players build as the game progresses. Blood rage is one example the comes to mind. Everyone starts out with the same basic actions and abilities, but as you play the cards you draft, your armies become different and even the strategies you use to gain points will change drastically - especially if you adopt the Loki strategy which becomes almost like a kamikaze approach.
Anyway, I’m becoming a huge fan of your channel - keep up the amazing work!
Coming from a simulation game background asymmetry is pretty much a given. Usually it is in the access to different numbers of units & board position rather than special rules though. Eg 18C England has the same units & fleets as France but far fewer armies & much more ships, & the capacity to support those by virtue of being a low population island. I am not sure this exists in Euros without a lot of the special rule elements too like in Root. Note the original Hartland Trefoil Civilisation had this character as do the first 2 Sid Meier computer games. National features were added later.
Cosmic Encounter is touted as the first game with asymmetric powers in a "fixed board position" . You can explore the random combo aspect by taking multiple powers. IMO this was excellent in 1980 but has not aged well, though it still has fans.
Another coop with pronounced asymmetry is X-com where each player has completely different things that they do - same with Captain Sonar in a competitive team game.
A game, well two, I really like with asymmetric board positions, special rules & also ways to accumulate VP are "Here I Stand," and "Virgin Queen". Simulations of politics in reformation Europe but long 6 player games that struggle to hit the table. The aim of the protestant faction is to spread their religion and the Pope wants to stop this. Meanwhile most factions want territory but can also get points for other unique achievements (eg an heir for Henry VIII of England).
To some extent I dislike asymmetry in "tech tree" or engine builder games as I feel it can tell you what your strategy is rather than letting you discover it or develop it yourself. This can be as simple as getting a couple of good cards that support say a baking strategy in Agricola. Any game with a tech tree can become asymmetric once players develop different techs and I quite like this to flow from my choice not be pushed by my starting race.
My group and I had a 30 minute discussion about asymmetrical games during lunch, after we'd demo'ed Root at Gencon. So this was a pleasant coincidence. :)
In a way Games with GMs are highly asymmetric. Also Mysterium or Deception: Murder in Hongkong are great examples of asymmetric games.
As an Idea to explore: A mixture of Mysterium and Scotland Yard. One player is Mr. X, one player is a clue-giver á la Mysterium, and the rest are Detectives?!
Absolutely! I think I may have left out an entire category of games by mistake. :) And "Mysterium meets Scotland Yard" is a great hook!
I like the idea that the clue giver has full information about where Mr X is, but very limited communication as to how they can express that information. The players would probably need to have even less information (fewer reveals) than they do in Scotland Yard.
If you design this, please let me know. It's a really cool concept, especially if you can keep it as streamlined as Mysterium and Scotland Yard.
@@jameystegmaier I just realized you probably had the flu when you wrote this, as you never comment on game ideas, and you never want direct emails about game submissions. Your comments must have created cognitive dissonance, so ignore my last email.
Ha ha...just a cold, not the flu (fortunately), but you're right, that is my general rule. :)
I practice this same desing steps, first focus on the core and then focus con asymmetry.
Scythe in other hand is quiet interesting, the players need to learn about handle every asymmetry in the game, because at the start of the game you choose randomly the faction and the orientation. This force the players to deal with thinks that they don't choose and that's fate, and is awesome. In other side you found that you choose how to balance the asymmetry putting mechs and upgrades.
I really enjoy Terra Mystica and Gaia project asymmetry, is elegant and simple. There is other game that I totally dislike because is too much balanced and is Terraforming Mars, there are Asymmetry, there are Prelude and still found that the game is closed to cards that limit the player chooses.
Thanks for this video Jamey, always welcome here your analysis!
I very much feel the same way about Root on every point you made, Jamey; the shared win condition, the shared player phases, and the different ways each faction used the shared deck, I loved it all!
At first the victory point track had me feeling a little crestfallen as I like when games can find another way of determining a winner (which is what Vast did), but for the same reason you gave, it kept the tension high to see the Eyrie (birds) or the Marquis (cats) lap each other throughout the game, as was the case in our play.
Hopefully I can play Root again soon and begin to master the role I played - Woodland Alliance forever!
2-player Asymmetry!
-Ravens of Thri Sahashri is my favorite, and is also cooperative. One player is responsible for building a grid of cards on their turn, and the other player, who can't talk, must communicate information by taking a card from that grid to help them and their partner achieve their goal.
-Blood of an Englishman. One player is the Giant trying to manipulate the display of cards to arrange Fee Fi Fo Fum to win while the Jack player is using completely different actions to reveal treasures and pilfer them from the display.
I'm new to the board games, so I can't tell by just looking at the games you released last 4 years, but is the civilization game you mentioned at 4:04 out, or is it still in the development? :)
Welcome to the wonderful world of games! The civ game I mentioned is Tapestry; we released it a while ago, and we just released the third expansion. :)
@@jameystegmaier Thank you, can't wait to try it out =)
Exiled: Siege and Theseus: Dark Orbit also are very asymetrical.
Great topic, thank you. My knowledge of asymmetry in games is pretty limited, but it's on my radar.
The game idea is a very strong idea. I would love to design it with you but I don't think I'm at the level you would require.
Great video! Makes my anticipation rise even more for Root to arrive. I have opted for the expansion as well so that it has even more of a difference when playing the newer factions at some point. :)
Love asymmetric games and I do hope to see that game idea you have one day! Especially of done in a feudal Japanese setting! :)
Asymmetry is such an important part for me so that I'm almost sad everytime I play a game without it although the game design would have allowed it. Blood Rage with those cool Viking clans but they're all the same...made me skip it. Then Rising Sun came out and the asymmetry given by the different traits and clan effects was a huge reason for buying it (don't know if I agree with the way it was done in the end but still better than total symmetry). And after playing it and loving the concept I also picked up Blood Rage. :)
One interesting way of asymmetric desing can be found in Anachrony as well. While Trickerion brought asymmetry with an expansion (and with this maybe screwing with balance a bit, from what I've heard), Anachrony has the build in faction trait that differers to a degree in terms of mechanics and two leader abilities also change the winning conditions to a degree. It did feel like enough differentiation at least.
Thanks for the video and the many suggestions! I will have to give some of them a look! Take care! :)
Thanks for sharing those examples, Roberto!
Wow, your idea for a two-designer assymetric game is very spy-vs-spy
Nice video ! Thanks !
I'm a big fan of Scythe and I find it very cool the way you are taking about other games a'd mechanism !
For asymeteic 2-player game, Mr Jack is also nice :) here the mechanism is exactly the same for both players but their goals are opposite. Really cool !
Thanks for the recommendation! I haven't played Mr Jack.
Isn't Root inspired by the COIN system or something?
One form of asymmetry you didn't really touch on is that found in card driven games such as Twilight Struggle or Wir Sind Das Volk!, where a lot of asymmetry comes out of a central deck of cards with historic (or fictional) events. The players are taking the same broad actions, though in Wir Sind Das Volk! have somewhat different concerns, but the deck of cards can help or hinder each player differently, with very few cards that have 1:1 equivalencies, which is a form of asymmetry I tend to really enjoy.
I believe it is, though I've never played another COIN game. And yes, I totally forgot about Twilight Struggle!
For Origins and GenCon, I taught a game called Stellar Leap by Weird Giraffe Games. It's not strictly asymmetrical, but each (identical power) race is allowed to pick from a set of dice manipulation cards at the beginning of the game, which will be unique for that player throughout. It's a very small asymmetry on the surface, but after having watched 20+ games it, I'm amazed at how much it influenced each player's thought process as they strove to deny their opponents resources while maximizing their own. I love asymmetry in any game, even it's just tiny amount. Anything to get the noggin thinking slightly different on each player's round.
Thanks for mentioning this! I'll check it out.
Thought-provoking analysis of asymmetry in games. I've already started incorporating unique game mechanisms per player to perform common actions. So, for instance, player 1 uses worker placement to generate energy to clear an obstacle, while player 2 uses card management to do the same. Now I'm wondering if I can somehow work the occasional sharing or swapping of generated abilities (or actions) between players. Thematically this makes sense as the characters the players are playing are telepathically linked with each other. Also, it helps that the game I'm designing is a co-op. I dunno. What are your thoughts on this, Jamey?
Arcubal: Very cool! I like that the idea of players temporarily sharing powers with each other.
I love the idea of working with another designer to create asymmetrical sides to a game. Even if it doesn't pan out as a workable game, it would be a good exercise in design theory and game design practice. Who's with me?
Thanks Robert! I'm curious to try it too. :)
It's great that you are open to working with us on a heist game, if we wanted to reach out, would we submit ideas, our backgrounds, etc? Thanks Jamey.
Thanks for your interest! I'm not sure yet...at this point I'm just talking about it, but if I decide to pursue it, the best way to stay tuned is on this channel.
Jamey Stegmaier Great! Thanks and will do, great thoughts as usual
Need that shirt!
Meeplesource sells them. :)
Trae Lenox agreed!
www.meeplesource.com/proddetail.php?prod=STM-10-VIS
Would you consider gaining a factory card in Scythe asymmetrical as well?
When I play a game for the first time I like to play without player powers. I feel they push you too much into one direction. If you don't play to your 'race' strengths you'll do badly.
Oddly enough, that 'push' is something I often find helpful in games with multiple paths to victory.
I've become a little obsessed with asymmetric designs and have sought out quite a number of them down. One of the games I've played the most out of these and I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned was Chaos in the Old World. It also does some elements of what you mention in Root, but the factions are united much more in the basic rules than it sounds like Root is. Each faction has the same types of units, but those units have different stats for each faction and can be upgraded differently based on the factions' own unique upgrades. Each faction also has its own unique deck of cards. And finally, there is a wheel that all factions have, and each faction can advance that wheel in a different way and when the wheel advances, a bonus is granted that faction (such as points or extra cards or upgrades). The factions play quite different from each other, but the core rules are the same.
Another game I think very much worth mentioning is Star Wars: Rebellion. Playing the Empire vs playing the Rebellion is very different. The empire is trying to find and destroy the hidden rebel base and the rebels are just trying to survive long enough.
A category that I think is worth a mention are trading card games, or LCGs. You mentioned Netrunner, but there is a sea of games where you build your own unique deck to play against other players. Among my favorite of these games are Decipher's Star Wars CCG (which also has a different set of cards to build from depending on whether you are lightside or darkside) and Doomtown (each faction has a unique power and primarily you recruit from dudes of your faction).
I'm a big fan of Rex as well (I've played it a couple times, once at 3 players, once at 5, and it is quite a different experience between the two player counts). Only played Vast once, and loved it. It is hard to get it to the table because of the learning curve, and that's why I haven't brought my copy out to play yet. I've been keeping an eye on Root, but the theme has kept me from from just buying the game. Also, Sidereal Confluence, a sci-fi trading/economy game where each faction is completely different with different player boards and powers, and you are looking for different resources to fuel your economy.
I think it would be very fun to attempt to design half of a game without seeing the other half and seeing if it would be possibly for the two designs to come together.
These are awesome examples! I'm kicking myself a bit for not mentioning Star Wars: Rebellion in particular. :)
I take it you have played Rebellion? Have you done so with the expansion? It really improves the combat in the game. It's not a game I can bring out often, due to the game length, but I enjoy it each time I play it!
I've played it twice, without the expansion both times.
Instead of always having random little cards, you get a set deck of cards. Each card will often have a top or bottom effect. Usually the bottom effect will enhance the top when you have a certain unit in the battle (which makes it so all of the units now have some value if you position them in the right battle). At the start of each battle round, you get to choose 1 card. The cards act along the lines of century spice road, except you only get all of the cards back when you have played them all.
Also, leaders (generals for the ground, admirals for space), will allow you to reroll in those battles. Those are the main additions. There are also a couple new units, characters, and objectives, but the dramatic improvement to combat is what I consider the main selling point. The only downside is that it does add a little bit of time to gameplay, since battles now have more strategic value.
I've designed a very amateurish game in the vein that you described at the end, except its a hero going through levels of a castle and the other player is a villain designing each floor of the castle to stop the hero. I've done a few rapid prototypes and it seems to work well, but I'm a school teacher and don't really have anywhere to go from here. I know you are a super busy guy, but let me know if you would like to see what I've cobbled together and I can hopefully pass it off to more capable hands
That's really cool, Paul! I appreciate you sharing that. It sounds like you'd benefit from finding a co-designer. You two could work on it and submit it to us (if it's a team game, allowing it to play from 2 to at least 5 or 6).
Hi Paul. I'd love to playtest your design and help out where possible. Let me know if you'd like to talk about it!
Okay will do. Thanks for the response Jamey!
sure thing. PM me with your email address and I can send you a PnP copy within the next week or so
youtu.be/addme/SF-SywHJ4UwMCILbZBSKYbPV75K82Q
Everything I hear about root. Really makes me wish I had kept the KS. But that art style. I just hated it. I kept thinking I could get over it. But then I would see it again and ultimately it put me off the game.
Daniel Cassidy interesting, the art was one of my favorite elements of the game!
Patrick Tumpane different strokes for different folks, even now I look at it and it reminds me of those awful cartoons these days. It is just an art style that I find particularly unpalatable.
Is there any more info about your civilisation game that your working on?
Thanks for your curiosity, but not yet. :)
Based off the website and that it is in blind playtesting it is codenamed Sand.
We will see if that's true. :)
I am hoping for a space set civ game.
Ah, well this isn't that. It starts from the beginning.
Wow, I would love to go into a design challenge like that with you, Jamey! (or with other designers as well, for that matter)
Thanks! For now it's just a random idea, but I'll let you all know if I pursue it. Until then, anyone else is welcome to try it out. :)