10+ Turn Order Systems in Tabletop Games
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 มี.ค. 2019
- Jamey discusses a number of options for determining the order order in which players take their turns.
Games mentioned in this video: The Reckoners, Viticulture, Incan Gold, Fire in the Library, Rajas of the Ganges, Lords of Waterdeep, Caylus, Brass, Power Grid, Aeon's End, Fresco, Between Two Castles of Mad King Ludwig, Terra Mystica, Scotland Yard, The 7th Continent, Clans of Caledonia, On Tour, Agricola
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I like how Kingdomino takes care of turn order.
I love how you did it in Viticulture, also the way Coimbra did it with the crowns because in both you are going to have to sacrifice something in order to go earlier. Also Castles of Burgundy if you want to go early you have to go for the blue tiles but you have to be careful someone else doesn't reach the same spot you do after you.
Five Tribe's mechanism of bidding for turn order is pretty solid.
Not crazy about it in Five Tribes. You can take this out of the game and, while it does lessen the strategy, it helps you realize how tacked on and unessential it is (especially considering the time it adds).
Thx for covering my suggestion! Loved the variety presented!!
Two other cool examples: Steam, you start the round by picking a card that has a special action associated with this and has a number on it. Based on what special action you take, it determines turn order for next round (higher numbers go later). This mechanism also then serves as a way to teach a newer player a little game strategy. If you pick the "5 tile" you'll go later in the next round than the "4 tile", so in general this means the "5 tile" is better than the "4 tile." It doesn't mean you wouldn't want to go earlier or later, but in general helps newer players see what is GENERALLY a stronger special bonus.
Flamme Rouge is another nice intuitive turn order where players decide their turn simultaneously but then the pack of racers moves front to back based on who is winning. So interestingly the value of being first goes up as the game goes on. Initially if you are leading the pack, you take exhaustion cards, but later in the game being ahead means less traffic and you would win a tie breaker. Also very thematic of the bike racing game.
Thanks for inspiring this video, Sam! I like those two additional examples.
Sunset Over Water does something cool where you have three cards in your hand with three stats on each of them: how far you can move, how many paintings you can paint, and your initiative. Pretty cool because you have two potential sacrifices to make when you're deciding how badly you want to go first.
Magic Maze turn order system is funny, it's your turn to do something if you see that you have to do something. And you can signal other players to move with the red pawn but you can't talk, you can only stare at them.
roll for the galaxy has a fairly unique turn order mechanic. You choose what action you want to do and for that action all players go simultaneously.
There are games that also use initiative like Roborally, which can be interesting.
well thats not rly a turn order mechanic thou :) Its an action selection mechanic.
This really helped me clarify a turn order issue I'm thinking through. Thanks!
This is what I decided to do because of your discussion. Hopefully not too confusing. th-cam.com/video/I1jLJe5O3o0/w-d-xo.html
The turn order in Broom Service has always felt very dynamic and exciting to me. It's an unusual game in that being the first player carries a bit of a disadvantage, and you are forced to become the first player every time you play a "brave" card (which gives you much better value than its "cowardly" alternative)
Broom Service is a classic trick taking card game in this respect. Simple, effective, brilliant.
I really like Tokaido's turn order system. It seems to be the real crux of the game's mechanics, everything else is just point scoring.
I have a children's game in my collection solely because I enjoy the turn order resolution in it. In Powerpuff Girls Saving the World Before Bedtime. All players play their cards simultaneously, then resolve based on how "early in the day" the card says it happens.
I like how Belfort allows you to place a worker to swap turn order tokens with any other player. Since it has worker placement, going first is beneficial as you get first shot at the better guilds. But since it's an area majority scoring game, it's beneficial to go last in scoring rounds.
Thanks for the video.
I think queendomino has a good turn order selection. (whoever that picks the worst tile goes first next round)
Citadels also has a good one.
But my favorite is the the usual clockwise turn order like agricola.
Bruno Cathala does this a lot. Five Tribes, Yamatai, Queen/Kingdomino are all examples of this. I love that design element.
I missed good old El grande with iths imho clever mechanism for deciding if you want to be first in turnorder...
El Grande for sure
Dragon & Flagon has an interesting variable turn order. Players that choose a more epic action, go further up the time track, which allows players that choose smaller actions, to have multiple smaller attacks before your turn comes up again.
Really enjoy the Sunday Sitdown series. Something that I would like to hear your view on as a publisher/designer is the "patching" of a game through an expansion; when do you decide to do that, does/should that affect your price model for the expansion (necessity vs nice to have), and if you do happen upon a corner case strategy that is overpowered do you work hard to fix it since someone will most likely post about it online (such as A Few Acres of Snow being "solved" even though it is still a playable game). I have been seeing more comments on BGG, BG videos/podcasts, and on r/boardgames of people saying they are tired of having to buy an expansion just to make some games "playable" and won't do so no matter how good a game.
Thanks Brett! I think I may talk about this a bit in my expansions video: th-cam.com/video/TC4WsUItsUE/w-d-xo.html
I like captain sonars turns that might seem at first to rely mostly on pure speed but actually rely on it only when the entire team knows exactly what must be done to sink the enemy.
Prior to Fire in the Library, Conquest of Paradise has the trailing player choose the next start player and the direction of rotation (by passing an oriented fish-sadly, on a small cardboard chit, but I guess you could use a real fish if you had one handy).
Baseline Sagrada's oscillating play order has the tactically interesting effect that each round there's one player who goes back to back.
Rallyman: GT (Kickstarted but not yet delivered) is a racing game in which the currently fastest car goes first, even though it may not be at the front of the pack. I've yet to play it, but it looks as if this will make for some interesting strategic decisions, especially when higher player counts increase congestion.
The Networks has a clever turn order mechanic in that the earlier a player drops out of the round, the better their bonus will be.
Scoville's turn order is excellent. Bid for order in which you choose where you want to go in the turn. Different phases of the turn go in different order. Really very good.
I don't think you mentioned a mechanism similar to Sekigahara which is simply the winning player decides who goes first. It's interesting because while it feels like you have the power, you only know what's in your hand and what you can or would like to do. So it gives a player the ability to hang themselves by making a decision.
In Scotland Yard the turn order of the detectives/police officers is actually in clockwise order (Mr. X goes first) -> I see how you get the idea of free turn order though, because there is a very ambiguous passage about it at the beginning of the rules (sort of the overview) along the lines of "and then everybody takes their turn" - at least in the German version of the rules. If you just read that you might get the impression that it's a free choice. It actually makes a difference sometimes and makes the game a little bit harder for the detectives. Also clockwise order prevents possible debates of who should go first...
I really like how Brass deals with turn order. The player who spend the fewest amount of money goes last and vice versa.
I really like in The Manhattan Project with the expansion, you have leader cards you switch out when you pass with a certain extra free action you can perform on your turns. There are also no rounds, you just do a retrieval turn, and can then start with your new leader next turn. The abilities are very thematic and beneficial, and waiting for the right leader to come available so you can take it figures into the strategy. Energy Empire also doesn't have rounds, you just have a worker placement turn or a retrieval turn, and if you set yourself up, you can get bonus end game scoring (by having an extra two workers available when you retrieve), so that could also figure in to when you retrieve if it will get you a scoring tile you know you can easily pull off.
Spirit Island is cool for its simultaneous play... but also Sidereal Confluence in its main phase. Players activate their converters simultaneously, then have a trading phase all at once, which creates a frenetic pace as you try to wheel and deal the resources you need. And the player economy is very rich, since each race is unique and not no race has access to all of the resources, and must trade for the resources that player needs.
In Five Tribes, you can pay for your turn order, but I'm not too fond of that, as it is so easy to overpay. I'd much rather have something like many of the games you mentioned where you just go to a certain spot to secure the first player turn order, if rounds are a thing.
I m designing a game which turn order is kind unusual. Its a game of climbing a building and do graffiti tags, so every player choose a card at same time with numbers from 2 to 5. The first to move its always whom is higher in building, but he receives the lowest card of action point that all players choose in the turn. The lowest player in the building climbing receives the highest number card but he moves for the last.
Other two particular turn orders mechanisms that come to mind are :
Five tribes where there is an auction for the turn order at the beginning of each round.
Russian Railroads where there are 2 worker placement spots to become 1st or 2nd player. When everyone has passed, the turn order is changed and those workers can be reused in other spots as extra actions.
dunno about the full game, but in burgundy the card game you can take an action that lets you take the first player token but face down, so you can battle for it until the round is over
I love how Carson City handles turn order. It potentially changes twice during a round. You pass earlier to snag 1st player position, but then reorganize again after role selections in the next round.
It's interesting that mention many games with clockwise turn order that have an action to become the first player also have a bonus/benefit. Azul goes the other way with this.
The method you mention for aeons end reminds me tiny epic defenders but while I love that that deck gets seeded with more and more enemies as the game goes on there is also the ally card which allows players to divide the 3/4 actions between all players.
As for a simultaneous type system forbidden stars while not fully simultaneous feels semi simultaneous.
I like the Dokmus version of turn order where you draft cards/"powers" to determine turn order. The lower the turn order card that you select, the sooner you go, but the less powerful your action for the round is. The higher the turn order, the more powerful/flexible your action for the round is.
I’ve been seeing a few more games that are dispensing with the idea of “rounds” lately, and I’m actually kind of liking it. While Futuropia doesn’t alter turn order, there is no concept of “rounds” ... everyone is taking actions as they like, and there is even a mechanism to let you reset your available action tiles “early” so you can leverage a particular action sooner than you might otherwise have been able to do so. The other place where I like how this works out is in Everdell, where again, turn order doesn’t change, but the concept of moving through the Seasons asynchronously is determined partially by the available items to build, but also by how good you are at planning your building chains.
Lastly, I do like how Sentient manages turn order, giving you the option to “pass” ... the benefit of passing (and clearing the available cards) puts you lower in turn order for the next round. Similarly, Dinosaur Island’s turn order is based on your VP at the end of a round, with lowest going first. I think it’s meant to attempt some control over runaway first player, but I don’t know that it really does very well with that. What are your thoughts on manipulating turn order to address runaway leader issues?
I'm a little surprised that you didn't mention Tzolk'in (one of your favorite games, Jamey) which has a mechanism that a person can do a "place a worker" action to take 1st-player, but each round that no one takes it, it gets more valuable, accumulating an additional corn. When you take 1st-player you also get all the accumulated corn.
Another thing with Tzolk'in is that when someone takes 1st-player, the 1st-player always changes -- so if you are not 1st, then you become 1st -- but if you already are 1st-player, when you take 1st-player, then the next person clockwise becomes 1st-player and you become last-player, which can be situationally good.
And when you do a "place a worker" action to take 1st-player you get to retrieve that worker on the same turn instead of waiting for some subsequent turn as you need to do for all other workers.
And, when you take 1st-player, you may, once per game (or more if you reach the top of a temple), you may shorten the game by one turn - turning the gear an extra notch. This might make your workers move to a better position for your next turn, and/or mess up your opponents next turn - but it may help your opponents in addition to helping yourself. In any case some interesting decisions.
Bellfort has a mechanism similar to other worker placement game, where you can spend an action to change turn order. Unlike others though, you can choose which number you take and swap yours for theirs. This is quite interesting because later in the game it's sometimes better to go later for the area control aspect. You might also want to grab 2 rather than fight back and forth for 1. Or, it can be a take that decision where you swap with the winning player to punish them, even if it's not necessarily the best turn order choice for you.
Bolt is also interesting where you place a red, a white and a blue die simultaneously. The dice trigger in that colour order, but the lowest number in each colour (which is usually less powerful) goes first.
I like the first-place tile available in Azul. Bonuses for selecting from the tile floor and getting first choice in the next round but still taking negative points from the tile itself
The turn order in Hit Z-Road has bidding but you but you pay more for cards you see and free for faces down cards.
Gloomhaven has an interesting initiative system where the action cards each have an initiative number on them, lower goes first, and the enemies will also have numbers in there.
Citadels has the interesting system where you are drafting a card with a special power that also has a number from 1 to 9 that indicates who goes first.
I am a big fan of Terra Mystica. I don't have the expansion but have heard the complaints about the base game system, especially when the person who happens to be sitting to the left of the player that passed first gets lucky to go second. Still, I have resisted house ruling variable turn order because of the elegance of clockwise turn order - I'll take simplicity over mild balancing mechanisms most of the time. But that turn order board you showed looks perfect in overcoming the extra mental load of remembering the order of passing.
Another one I like... I know there's plenty of games that do this. Ghosts Love Candy has a simultaneous card reveal, and the weaker the card, the later your turn. Ordinarily I'd have an issue with it being a double negative to picking a lower card, but it works nicely in this one.
I liked Alchemist's bidding turn order as well
I wanted to mention two games that have multiple phases where the turn order varies based on the phase.
In Mare Nostrum, the Collect Resources phase is simultaneous; the trade phase starts with the trade leader and continues with the person traded with; in the Build phase, the turn order is determined by the Trade Leader; in the Move and Battle phase, the turn order is determined by the Military Leader; and the Choose Leadership phase, it is done simultaneously.
In Reykholt, Work Time is clockwise; Harvest Time is simultaneous; Tourism Time is determined by order on the Tourism Track; and Homecoming Time is simultaneous.
Five Tribes was the first one I thought of. You have to pay a certain amount of coins to try to get the spot in turn order you want, but others can outbid you. Works really well in a game where turn order really matters sometimes , but then other times it might not, so you just choose to bid 0.
Josh Walton Funny that you mention this example - I would love to try Five Tribes but I think it might be too complex for my family and this bidding for turn order is one of the things that keeps me from giving it a try, even though I like the idea in theory, I fear this adds one decision too many for us
Sandra Müller it’s a tricky one to be sure. Though I believe you can kind of play it on two levels. There’s the very competitive level where every player is avidly scanning the board to find the best possible move which takes forever but is probably the technically correct way to play it. In that case turn order is a tough decision because you have your move picked out and you don’t want anyone to take it or mess it up before you get to it.
And then there’s the level I teach it at and generally play it at wherein I tell everyone to sort of play from the hip. Look around for a few seconds, find a decent move and roll with it. Until the end of the game there’s usually always something decent out there so you don’t have to think too hard about it. And in that case unless there’s a super great move that everyone is clearly going to want you don’t have to think too hard about turn order so you just bid 1 or 0 most of the time.
I think if you play that way for awhile eventually you could get to the competitive level and by then the turn order thing won’t seem so scary.
@@sandrabasel1545 Try Yamatai. It's simpler to grasp, similar in some ways to Five Tribes and no bidding for turn order. What fleet tile you choose determine when you'll go next turn, like King/Queendomino. The better this turn's action, the lower your turn priority next round. Very elegant game.
Tom Luongo and Josh Walton: Thank you both for replying - I think we will try Five Tribes and I will try to encourage everyone to play casually. As for Yamatai I have seen so many negative reviews that turned me off, but now I will go and watch a playthrough to learn if maybe this would be a game for us, so thank you very much for the recommendation.
Right now we are happily playing wingspan though, so I have time to take these decisions. 🙂
What was your logic and math behind scythe end game condition? Do you think this could be somehow changed? My problem with it is that some players get one turn less..
The key, as I learned in playtesting Scythe many times, is that you need to give players a strong incentive to end the game. If you know that other players are going to get another turn after you, you may intentionally prolong the game instead of ending it. However, I do address this (for those who want different end-game conditions that address different needs/desires) with the resolution tiles in The Wind Gambit. There's actually one specific tile that is designed to let other players take a turn--check it out and you can see how I designed that tile to address the problem with letting players get that extra turn.
@@jameystegmaier thank you for a quick response...didnt know about this because m friend owns the game... ok i will check it next time i play the game... My big problem with the game was that in both cases i was the second player and both times first player won the game after ending it.. And both times i would have won if i had another turn...
Im a bit late to the Party, but I enjoyed this episode ALOT! I believe turnorder can affect the experience greatly in a game. However, players might have trouble 'getting' innovative turnorder structures (Tokaido was a great example of that). I guess thats one of the reasons why you went for a traditional clockwise turn order in Wingspan?
Yep, clockwise seemed like the most intuitive approach for Wingspan. :)
I find that Bruno Cathala's games usually have interesting turn orders... Such as in Micropolis, you're using ants to bypass tiles you don't want to get a better one down the line, but whoever has the most ants goes first next round. Most ants at the end of the game also gets bonus points! King/Queendomino is also interesting where choosing the better tile usually will result in you going later on the next turn. In a 2 player game you'll pick two tiles, which leads to some interesting chances to set yourself up in a big way. And I was surprised you didn't mention Five Tribes, that has one of my favorite turn order mechanisms where you bid for turn order. How much are you willing to spend to go first? Or maybe, just not last!
Roll Players is also interesting, you roll one more die than the number of players and set them up from lowest to highest. Whoever takes the lowest value dice gets first pick at the cards in the market, and gets to pick their dice first next turn. Very tough decision to make sometimes, but it just makes the game that much more enjoyable imo.
Glen More uses the rondel for turn order.
I was surprised you didn't mention Glen More - it has a neat method of determining turn order using a rondel.
I've only played Glen More once, and it was quite a while ago--I don't remember that mechanism (just that it uses a time track like Patchwork and AuZtralia, which I mentioned in the video).
Jamey Stegmaier - ah, I had never thought of or heard it referred to as a ‘time track’. Makes sense though and I apologize for questioning your thoroughness! ;)
Thats how I'm going to introduce myself in games. I'm the turn order manager. X-D
I find the floating turn order mechanism is only interesting when there four or more players. With fewer, the turns will always proceed clockwise or counterclockwise, which with only two effectively being the same. This is why I do not like to play games which were designed for three or more players with only two, especially in the case of Mahjong, where the players basically play counterclockwise but they draw the tiles clockwise.
In Agricola, I agree, turns are clockwise, but not in Caylus. I actually prefer, when turns are not clockwise, if there is an action to get the first player marker. Yes, people have to pay a little attention on turn order, but the downside of clockwise turns is, that second player after the one, who took the FPM, get's a quite beneficial position without "paying" for it.
It was an interesting video, but you totally skipped auctions for turn order. Five Tribes has already been mentioned in the comments, but there are many others. My favourite one (and quite unique on it's own) is The Great Zimbabwe, where not only first player pays most, but also last player gets some income from the other players bids.
Nothing is worse than sitting behind a player in Agricola or Caverna that overvalues being first player. You get stuck going last because the guy going after you is willing to spend an action to grab first player even though he is already going second. So we now play them with a play them with a non-clockwise player order so if you are first, and somebody takes first player, all players drop by only one slot.
I know there are games that let the losing player (with least amount of points) go first each turn, which I like as catch-up mechanism, but I can't think of any titles right now...
Brass not only requires a game master to count the coins people spent to figure out the new turn order, but requires my husband to keep prodding me to pay my money into the little payment area rather than the bank - Turn order aside from simultaneous and clockwise definitely eats a little bit into a game's 'complexity budget' to borrow a phrase from Mark Rosewater due to that need to manage it, remember where you now are in turn order, and so forth, and different games can successfully handle different amounts of complexity, but it can be worth it for the overall game balance and experience in the right game.
One mechanism I really enjoy is Dungeon Petz's simultanious auction, where you divide your imps and gold into various piles, and then the player with the largest pile sends that pile out (or passes with it), ties resolved in clockwise order from where the first player marker currently is. Actually Dungeon Lords also does something interesting - Players simultaneously program where they're sending their three workers, which then resolves in turn order. Four players, three spaces per action space, so sending a worker there too late (the best spot is usually the second, though the third tends to be conditionally better than 2) will result in that worker not doing anything. Then the actions resolve in a specific order marked on the board.
before watching i am saying elysium will be on this list and if t isnt it really should
I'm sorry, I've only played it once, and quite some time ago--it wasn't on my mind when I filmed this. What's the mechanism in it?
@@jameystegmaier Each player has 4 different colored pillars and you draft 3 cards and your next turn order
which is indicated clearly with a big number and a bonus depending on which turn it is
and if you do not use it soon enough you get a lesser bonus which makes really challenging decisions in a drafting game
@@jameystegmaier BTW really like your content and really enjoy the way your games have an impact on player experience and replay-ability and the fact you try to keep on improving and learning from other games