I also want to thank you for sharing your honest thoughts! As a publisher sharing the publisher's view, you must be aware that you are opening yourself up to some negative feedback as well. So I appreciate your candour, and I appreciate your efforts in trying to help us consumers "work" with publishers better. Please continue to produce your beautiful games!! (The gorgeousness and theme of Viticulture is what finally got my husband to try and actually like a Euro-style game, and I am forever grateful!)
For me, if it does not have beautiful artwork i have a hard time purchasing it (i cannot think of an ugly game on my shelf.) Games like tokaido, above and below and the recent brass update make me want to play it. The brass update being a prime example, where no one would have called the original a good looking game but the new version is staggeringly beautiful. The best touch is the 2 sided board with day on one side and night on the other. I don't think that is an over produced aspect, just a nice touch especially if the game is going to be on the table a lot. I am not a minis guy (maybe when my kids get older i will learn to paint with them) and am quite happy with cardboard cutout and stand approach.
Yes!!!!! TM is one of my all time favorites and i feel like it doesn't come close to the quality of production of Stonemaier games even though it's a similar price point. Compared to Wingspan which costs about the same, TM is severely lacking. Heard they were doing a deluxe version in 2020... ...so maybe it will be better, but will probably cost a ton
@@ServiceDogPuppyRaiser - This is most likely cause it was mostly produced in the USA which has higher costs for many things. It's actually surprising they pulled off what they did for that price (though some things were still imported).
Terraforming Mars is charging you for all the game that is there, which is alot, and the fact that is one of the greatest games made in the last decade. Even now there is a demand for it.
I think Zee from the Dice Tower recently said something to the effect of "Does it create a disconnect between what you expect from the game and its components?" I like that definition of overproduced. When I first played Abyss, I was utterly surprised it was a nice little card game with some bidding. It looked like it was going to be some sort of underwater warfare game based on the box size, art, and aesthetic. I also recognize that some "overproduced" games are also games I wouldn't enjoy even if they were cheaper.
I think you do a fabulous job of balancing production value with experience value. Stonemaier games are some of our most favorite games. I always say, if im gonna spend hours looking at a game, i want it to be beautiful and inviting and fun to experience in every way. Wingspan hits all of those in every possible way... for everyone who had played it with us😀
I've often wished that publishers would offer cardboard figures with the base game, with minis being an optional upgrade. I love "pimped out" games, especially for the games I play frequently, but hate paying for fancy components because I'm forced to do so. Some games just don't need them, and actually suffer because of them, imho.
I hate minis because they're a huge PITA. They make storage a nightmare, and identifying specific characters if you don't paint them is really difficult.
Great point. The Walking Dead No Sanctuary offered either version but can't think of others. Cuts the price in half (or doubles if you want minisl. Though I would pay double for a mini version of Dead of Winter.
The big thing is the price of the molds and sculpts for the minis, not the production cost. Some of that does get baked into the cost of the game but a lot of games just wouldn't see that much of a price reduction with no minis in the box.
The one and only game I ever thought "I wish there was an "underproduced" version of this" was Cthulhu Wars. I heard about it, I saw it, I saw the price, I thought "ok, not for me, moving on", but then I played it.... and I loved it. It is such an amazing game, and I really wanted to have it in my collection, but I can't afford it. Maybe in the future I can, but what if I can't find it to buy it anymore when I have the money for it? I really wanted them to have a low cust version, with either smaller miniatures or just plain old tokens to represent the monsters, and have the current version of the game be sold as a Deluxe Version. For other games, I never thought about it. Even now, after what you said about Vindication and I realized that I own everything about Mansions of Madness and Imperial Assault, and there are some miniatures that only appear in one or anothe mission. I don't have a problem with that, I think it is very cool. Thanks for the videos and I wish you a great sunday and a good week as well! ^^
Agree. Where I am in life I can easily afford Sandy Petersen's over produced monstrosities but I definitely still gripe about it. I paid almost double the retail price for the High Priests expansion which, even at $19.99 retail is clearly over priced to begin with. Just because you have money doesn't mean you like being ripped off.
Not a real gamer, yet here are 2 stories that are relevant. 1. Decades ago I bought a vintage copy of Risk from an acquaintance, so I could have the nice old wooden pieces instead of the cheesy new plastic pieces. I paid a lot, but didn't care. 2. I just bought a copy of Skull, even though I currently have no social situation in which I would be able to play it. I just adore the way it looks. Maybe I'll use the skulls as coasters. Sometimes, production values are EVERYTHING.
Everdell's Ever Tree. It casts a shadow on the components on the bottom of it and forces you to have to stand up to read the events on its elevated platform. It also forces players to draw from one side of the draw pile only. I might be in the minority here but i prefer having the minis on Council of 4. Table presence aside, it also helps convey information on the board state faster and clearer in a quick glance. I really like it when I can "read" the board state of a game very quickly.
@@blackboardgaming5348 even it bumps up the price of the game just a single dollar, it would still be an overproduction IMO as it worsens the gameplay experience. I had to stand up so many times to check the event cards on the platform.
The only bad part of the ever tree imo is that on a square table it is difficult to find a good place for it. If it sits in the corner it is likely to get knocked by an elbow and if it's on an edge it's in the way. On a rectangular table it's so far away from some people that they can't see anything on it. I love the way it looks but I do agree that in some cases it makes for a bit of headache.
The Ever Tree also doesn't stand up well to multiple assemblies/disassemblies. Mine started to separate after just a few plays. Similarly, the Battle Mode SDF-1 in Robotech: Attack on the SDF-1 is so fiddly to assemble that I've vowed to simply never take it apart. And all it does it sit on the board to show that Battle Mode is active. It actually can get in the way of gameplay as you sometimes need to pick it up to access pieces near/under it. Meanwhile, the cardboard character standees, pieces that you move frequently, often separate from their bases.
One of the best things about Scythe, our favorite game, is the amazing artwork. We spend time with the encounter cards to look at the scene in the encounter, the art on the box, the mats, everything. I agree! I love a game that looks good and plays fun. A good look can make a big difference. That is why we upgraded our resources, and I plan on painting the characters and mechs. I like having games that look great. The other example is the amazing art in Wingspan. The bird cards are gorgeous!! Mansions of Madness, the tiles, and the mythos creatures add so much!! I can’t think of a game where I thought the game was over done for what the game was. I have seen under produced games. I wanted more special components, but I guess there is a balance.
Even when a component is not often used, it can add value to the game. My friends and I just finished Destinies, and from the start, we knew that the game has 5 scenarios. Every time we opened the box, we were curious about where the 4 scenario campaign was leading to, as it certainly would use the big bad miniature. So for us, even though it was only used in 1 scenario, this one enormous miniature added a lot of value to the game. It was something to look forward to. Thanks for sharing your view on the topic, Jamey!
This has probably been said already but I think “overproduced” means “I paid too much for this game”. Some games have pricepoints and gameplay that don’t seem to match up. I don’t want to buy an 80 dollar game that take less than 30 minutes. Some games don’t have a lot of variety so the replay ability is low despite it being a good game. I don’t want to pay 60-80 dollars for a game that is only fun three times. And as you talk about a lot, some games have components that aren’t used often or just isn’t necessary to be a miniature or something. CMON is notorious for doing this. I don’t want to pay 60-80 dollars for a game that doesn’t spend my money effectively. Sometimes the token doesn’t need to be a miniature. It’s just more respectful to the customer but not wasting a usually limited budget. Thus we have the term “overproduced”.
Exactly. I mean most of us in the hobby understand this is not a cheap hobby to get into. However the option for standees in all the mini games should absolutely always be an option for those that don;t want to pay so much just for the game mechanics.
For me there is a spectrum of "production value" which overlays another spectrum of "game play value." And as game play value increases (i.e., very interesting mechanisms, tough decisions, little downtime between turns, optimal duration for the amount of complexity, etc.), so does my tolerance or even desire for higher production value. But woe to the games that have their play value going in the opposite direction to their production value, which is how I define (degrees of) over-production. Give me a solid gold Monoploy edition and with extreme prejudice I will smite it with a smelter and sell the raw ore. However, give me a print-and-play version of Viticulture and I will play it to death, and lament that it was so under-produced. Thanks for video this week, Jamey!
Great to hear your thoughts. I think that: 1) trying to make the nicest possible version of the game can create an accessibility issue. I feel like the ideal here is that a game can sell in big enough quantities to merit having multiple versions and allow some folk to buy a £20 cardboard version whilst other folk buy the £60 fancy version. 2) ecological impact must be considered 3) you are spot on with asking, 'how often is this thing interacted with?' Then again, we want some drama/spectacle for the things that happen less often. 4) it is ultimately down to the value proposition, as you yourself note. And many Stonemaier games show that the value proposition is bang on. 5) the most important thing is to increase the value proposition with things that don't have added cost for production. The art in Wingspan must have been expensive but that cost per unit will only continue to come down as the years go on. Proof-reading. Playtesting. Ruleswriting. Doing the best we can with whatever components we end up with.
One game I feel where the over production of the game really helped me get more interested in it was Santorini. From the worker minis to the buildings themselves and the elevated game board. The game could have easily been just a bunch of blocks, but for an abstract game I think it really helps immerse the players in the game. I think for an msrp of ~$30 really helped the game reach people instead of sticking with the bare minimum for probably half the cost for something that does not look nearly as good.
I wouldn't really call it overproduced. The price point is sensible for a 2 player game and it doesn't go overboard with the components. At most you could say it's $10 more expensive than the cheapest it could be sold, but it's not like it's a $50 game.
Great video, Jamey. Over the years, I've come to appreciate more and more those "little touches" that can sometimes add a considerable amount of enjoyment to a game. In many cases, publishers must know that the extra time or expense for an improved component will likely not be recouped in sales. I understand the business side of the equation, but I'm always happy to see evidence that for many (perhaps most) publishers, these games are also a labor or love. One example of an older game that isn't talked about much, and likely didn't rake in a ton of profit for the publisher is Dragon Parade by Z-Man. I don't think anyone would accuse this game of being 'overproduced.' It really only has a few components: board, pawns, cards, and coins. For what he must have expected to make on this game, it would have been easy to simply use standard player pawns, standard cardboard coins, and a "function first" design for the board. Instead, the game contains somewhat unique player pawns, thematic coins with a square cut-out in the middle (I know I'm weird to care about that, but it makes a difference), and a beautiful, very colorful board that looks great for the 20 minutes that it's on the table. So, here's to publishers for making all those little, unnecessary improvements that enhance our play experiences. May that trend long continue.
It's interesting to see these insights considering the gold edition of Red Rising 08:45. I can see your experience and values coming though in action after these words with an affordable and deluxe version. Overproduction of a game, on the other hand, might also lead to taking longer to set up, it takes far longer to set up Scythe than many of my other games, but I think Scythe is well produced and balanced with the experience. If you add minis or something big to the set up for a small game it would actually prevent it from getting to the table as often. I'm fortunate enough that shelf space is more of a consideration than cost of my games so I love high production value, however it primarily needs to be a good game. Design trumps production but a board game is a luxury to begin with, so why can't we have it all?
Excellent Insights Jamey, thank you once again for starting a conversation in a constructive manner. I've had this conversation with my gaming group in the past specifically over miniatures. Miniatures can make a good game look great with their presence but they essentially don't add to the actual play of the game and can greatly increase production costs.
Tons of great comments here, haven't read them all but so far I haven't seen anyone bring up what I consider to be the elephant in the room: Kickstarter and marketing. If we move from defining "what does overproduced mean?", we can discuss "why does it happen?". I think this is the Kickstarter effect, to some extent. The more the board gaming scene is pushed to selling on looks, first impression, cover art etc. the more use publishers will find in overproducing sine lavish art, tons of minis and components will show great on the internet (and that often, but not always of course, equals "show great on Kickstarter). Think about movie trailers. Today there is a growing discussion around trailers that include scenes not even in the movie, because they look good for the trailer. I do not know if this has happened yet for a board game but an argument could be made to include, for example, a downright amazing miniature figure which you use to push the game online and create that first impression. Once you've gotten people's attention and sold them the game, it doesn't matter that the mini was only the starting player marker ... In just the same way, if I'm trying to sell a friend on a game via word-of-mouth, that "overproduced" mini will help me show the game to her/him a lot better than a fistful of cubes. Overproducing is marketing.
Based on the thumbnail, I assumed it was regarding classic games like Chess and Checkers - overproduced as in quantity. But a great topic, I love things having a strong table presence, unique pieces entirely for that one game, that's what I love!
Jamey, I think you have solved the problem already. As a publisher who (I believe) likes nice componets, you released a retail version of Scythe at a really reasonable price. No components look second rate, and in fact, the cards and mechs look amazing. But after playing the game and falling in love with it, I can choose to acquire metal coins, realistic resources etc. I know the insert companies are third party, but I can elect the indulge there too. I must say, the metal mechs really enrich the table presence. These are all things I may choose to spend money on to embelish the gaming experience. On that topic, I hope your fans have made a sufficient clamour to sway you on the topic of metal characters. Anyway, I believe you have demonstrated a great way to negotiate the dangers of "over production".
The problem with this approach, in my opinion, is doubling up on components... you end up with the base components *and* the higher quality components.
This approach, while nice, does add a premium to the cost of the improved materials. It may only cost an extra $15 to include the realistic components in the game from the start.. but when you source them and give them their own UPC, packaging, and distribution, now they're $35 for the same things.
@@evanfulks Fair point. Not a perfect solution. Still nice to jave those options. I wouldn't know how much effort goes into publishing a single version, but I imagine a parallel "deluxe" version release isn't always workable either.
@@joegarvin2589 I think we can definitely agree that giving the customer some choice is good and enables different audiences to enjoy the game. The one thing that I'm glad Jamey doesn't do (and that I really don't like) is solving it with Kickstarter and Kickstarter exclusives.
Thanks J. This topic hit home for me. The game I am creating has 1-6 players and each player has a figurine to go with it's character stat sheet. So some figurines wont be used if less than 6 people are playing. However, the game would not be what it is without those figurines available when the time comes to use them.
In my experience, "overproduced" is a code word for something else that is out of balance, be it poor game mechanics or price point. We do want the best production as long as the game play and price point warrant it. A counter example is AuZtralia, from one of my favorite designers and publishers. I use this particular game because I love it to death :-) But it is terribly "underproduced", in my opinion. The game play is at least as good as Martin Wallace's other train games (Steam for example). But it is crying desperately for some miniatures. I'd happily pay another $20 or $30 for a few minis - it is that good of a game. In the end, I'm happy I have the game but every time it hits the table, I see what it could have been.
That's a good point, Bob--it goes both ways. That's why I would prefer for people to encourage publishers to make nicer things instead of things that are less nice. :)
Interesting to hear your perspective. Personally, I think it makes sense to consider a game overproduced in some cases, and that overproducing a game is something to be avoided. It is nice if a game looks good, but as with everything, I think striking a balance is key, and exaggerating feels wasteful. Overproducing a game seems to promote materialism and a shallow focus on appearance. Games that are considered overproduced are very often Kickstarter games, where the inclusion of lots of giant miniatures or 'shiny' components is sometimes suspected to be meant to lure people in by distracting from the actual gameplay, which may be merely average. Sometimes, a game that would have been perfectly fine without miniatures, includes miniatures, which don't even fit the gameplay well, may even be too big for the board/cards and block the view of other elements, etc. That is a clear example of overproduction, in my opinion: too much production for the game's own good. It is also about the fact that people tend to dislike spending extravagants amount of money or being encouraged to do so. Even if board gaming is a hobby and expenses on board games are already luxury expenses, it just feels immodest to spend in some cases hundreds of dollars on huge pieces of plastic (that also take a lot of resources to produce, are heavy to take with you, and take up a lot of shelf space) that you will barely use, when you could have had a perfectly fine gaming experience while saving that money (saving is prudent and good) or spending it on other games or more useful things.
I agree 1000%. Tabletop games should be beautiful, stirring to behold, and tangibly gratifying experiences. The visceral/emotional aspect is a big part of the experience for me.
When you were talking about the game with an overproduced component that is preventing you from buying it I only thought about "Gizmos". I have exactly the same feeling about the dispenser.
I understand that it would be a production nightmare, but I would love to see more with and without versions of board games. Whether it be with or without minis or upgraded parts, offering a deluxe or maybe an upgrade pack would let the consumer decide what they wanted.
That's an interesting request, and it's certainly something we've considered. The problem that can arise is confusion: If you see a reviewer talking about a game, and then the copy you open has very different components, you may be disappointed in that experience.
It also might raise the cost for those "with" elements. So, while it might lower the price for those players who do not want them, it would also raise it for those who do (compared to what it would be otherwise). It also would be key for those "with" versions to be as easily available so they don't become something like a Kickstarter exclusive, or limited edition thing, which would again raise the cost.
I've thought about this question for Santorini. That's a game where the components are unnecessary for the gameplay, but actually add so much value to the experience. Imagine the same game with discs!
Jamey, I really appreciate your videos because you think deeply about everything. I think one of the critical distinctions here is “over-produced” versus “passion project”. What I mean is this: some designers may have one design that is so meaningful to THEM that they are willing to go all out. My example here is Mechs versus Minions. I really enjoy the game but it really could be played with small unpainted mechs and cubes for minions. Instead they put something like 50 minion sculpts in the box - each in an individual space in a tray, not in a bag!! I think we need to ask ourselves - what is it that the designer may get out of this seemingly overproduced component, and can I look at it from their perspective? Thanks!
Oof. Something I've thought about a bit lately. Grimm Forest is one that jumps immediately to mind and I feel it falls into that category of "too expensive for what it provides", so I will not purchase it but I can't fault it because it may be THE family game someone wants and it'll be a knockout. Since you mentioned Vindication I will just add that it bugged me in certain ways. I was a backer, but the monuments were first proposed as more abstract monolithic pieces that I felt fit the vibe of the game better. I was not happy with the the scale or the sculpts of the final monuments. They also promised Scythe-like coins, but the quality of the final metal was lacking and it is very difficult to distinguish between different colors and finishes. It is a beautiful game in all other regards, they just had a couple unfortunate misses. Back to Druid City Games, after the criticism many directed towards Grimm Forest, I assumed they would be more thoughtful for their Tidal Blades campaign. I was sorely disappointed. This was the game I decided I would not support the KS because of egregious over-production. I have the means to buy premium games and love upgraded components, but the dice tray is not at all desirable to me and the fact that it would make the box roughly 50% larger was a complete turn off. I hope to pick up a retail copy and would consider buying upgraded components, but asking customers to sacrifice that much extra shelf space (which is increasingly valuable) for a completely unnecessary trinket that feels like it was included for the sake of being extravagant is frustrating. Finally, I just want to say that I often think of Stonemaier as a company that seems to be extremely thoughtful about what is included in every game, from components and materials to box size and inserts. Thanks, Jamey!
I think this is an interesting thought in regards to Wingspan, which I think is a perfect balance of production interests. The Dice Tower that’s included is a great addition, though not strictly speaking necessary, I definitely love having it out during my playthroughs because it’s used constantly and is thematic, even if it raises the price of the game. I was super surprised when members of the Wingspan group showed off that they were upgrading the turn cubes, or were even complaining that they weren’t already upgraded, because to me that would be a perfect example of overproduction. Why make upgrades for those cubes if it will raise the price of every copy, when people can buy their own upgrades. Wondered how you balance that constant pressure between offering high quality beautiful pieces and managing costs, and this video offered a great explanation.
Thanks Matthew! Wingspan is definitely a game where I had to very closely think about the final price as it compared to the cost of the components. I wanted to offer something that feels premium in the right ways.
This conversation makes me think of an experience I had recently where I used the term over produced as a positive descriptor, and I dont say this to pander, but it was while playing Wingspan. I think that game is overproduced in the best way possible. The components are gorgeous, it looks so great on the table and every time I have played it in the past month or so I have had people walking by stop and ask me about the game. Mechanically there is no need for the bird feeder dice tower, or for the eggs to be the nice, tactile chunky pieces they are. You did not have to include a tray for the card market, and definitely did not need to add this gorgeous finish to the rulebook. But every one of those things have improved my experience with the game in subtle ways and in my opinion did not unreasonably raise the price point. I think the cost is dead on with the value of the game play and I really hope this is a trend other producers pick up on.
I played Vital Lacerda's The Gallerist over the weekend, a game which has been called "overproduced". The production quality was very appropriate for the theme, and was worth every penny. For a board game about art it only added to the asthetic and made my gamming experience that much more enjoyable. Stunning table presence.
Great video. It's okay to put more into the production of components if it really feels like it adds something to the game. I can't imagine playing Splendor with just some cardboard tokens to represent what are supposed to be the valuable gems I'm taking to the markets to sell to noblemen. It's that heft of those components that really makes me treasure having them in my possession during the game.
Dunno if you still read this, Jamey. But in my opinion, this topic really ties into what you expect from a game and, in a sense, what IS the game to you. I have been a board game lover for pretty much all of my life (our parents used to play stuff like Catan, Mississippi Queen and Tikal with us when I was like 6 years old), and for me, it never was and still is not about the components, it is about the decisions you make and storytelling a game provides. The same is true for video games btw.; I can still play games like the first Prince of Persia, because I don't mind graphics. As you already said, there are board gamers for which the budget is very limited, and so it was to me for a long time. I loved to play the StarCraft board game, but I could not even afford it when it was still in circulation. When all the modern miniature games popped up (CoolMiniOrNot etc.) my friends bought all these games I could not. For the most part I did not really care, but there are beautiful games in there from the point of mechanics, gameplay and balance, and I would have loved to own a version of them without miniatures, but with cardboard tokens or wooden meeples. But I could not play these game systems outside of my group, because I could not afford to pay 70$+ for a game. I also did not WANT to pay much for a game just for its components. To me, the perfect components of a board game are beautifully illustrated, two-layer cardboard and wood. I own Spirits of the Rice Paddy, and that game to me is the pinnacle in components. Archipelago is another example of a very, very beautiful game to me that conveys everything it wants to say with its wood and cardboard components. Or Leaving Earth - just gorgeous. Since I have a bigger budget I actually refrained from buying games with metal coins or plastic minis because I don't like them. So if you think you make Scythe better with plastic mechs, that may be true to you and the majority of gamers, but certainly not to me. If your point for painted minis is that they make Tapestry a better game, well, sadly not to me. That does not mean I will not buy it, but it makes a game I'd like to buy more expensive to me than necessary, and no one wants to pay more than the product needs in her/his eyes. You likely do not want to buy a double-the-price toaster with gold foil inlay when all you want to pay for is a machine to make some good toast. In a perfect world game designers would have the capability to produce games with all kinds of component upgrade levels, but sadly, this is the real world, and numbers in a print run matter, so I will never get my wood-and-cardboard material for a game you designed around precoloured minis and metal coins. In a sense, to me your gorgeous creation is overproduced. Not because you have components that rarely see the table, but because with less money you could have produced a game that I, personally, would like more aesthetically.
The question is whether the over-the-top component adds to the game experience. An example might be Everdell's tree, which in theory looks awesome, but has been accused of getting in the way. I've just finished a playthrough of Battle For Greyport, which I'd say is possibly overproduced because (as an example) there are 3 separate sets of tokens for tracking damage. Really, they could do all of that with 1 set of tokens and everything would have been just fine.
As an aspiring designer, I got caught up in over-producing my simple card game. I kept adding mechanisms & components like a mad scientist. Coins, custom dice, tokens- whatever fit the theme, I threw it in. I finally realized that I had almost no idea what I was doing, so I went back to the drawing board. It's now a simple 54 card, two player game ...and way better now (more play-testing is needed of course). I really do love the gorgeous components in those big box games! I hope to publish my big board game someday. It will be all the things I want in a game with a few unique components that don't quite go over-the-top. I'll call it "perfectly produced"! -D.D. O'Brien
I'm reminded of Tim Rogers's Videoball. There's a great video on TH-cam ("The 2017 Failure Workshop" posted by GDC) where he details the production, and how he kept adding stuff to make the game as good as possible, ultimately realising he should have kept the game simple.
I love this conversation. It's a difficult subject to broach but you did it quite well. I do appreciate elegant pieces and quality conponents. Interestingly I think scythe is gorgeous and know for quality components and art, but I don't think it's been mentioned regularly as over produced. I absolutely love metal coins, but I also like standees with artwork over minis in MOST cases. Not all cases, but most. Gorgeous dice can go a long way and indented player boards as well. You didn't need the glass drops for viticulture, but man are they amazing! Project elite is one of the few games I think needs big chunky minis because you grab them fast and toss them off the board...you can't have tender standees there...but many games have minis for almost no reason and the price increase versus standees is astronomical. I can't own many CMON games or kickstand a lot of games because of the over produced nature...
Thanks Jamey, for using (and thereby lending me) the term "table presence"! To me, a beautiful table presence improves a board or card game many notches. I think that is why I fell for chess as a kid. Table presence definitely pushed me into loving Magic the Gathering, where every player assembles his/her own work of art and integrates it with that of his/her opponent. It is also about the tactile experience. Some more irresistable games: The Grizzled, Mechs vs Minions, Hive, Love Letter (the AEG edition in a pouch), the Train Car cards of Ticket to Ride Märklin. The only one among these that comes close to overproduced would be Mechs vs Minions. Some of them are to the contrary pretty minimalistic. I can think of three good reasons to incorrectly call a game out as overproduced: Expensive, voluminous, poor mechanics.
I have no problem paying a premium for better graphic design, illustration, a better rule book, and more development time, and I would rather have a nice player aid than a miniature. I also take box size into account. I understand that publishers have to consider shelf presence, but for me personally, I want my boxes as compact as possible, especially for what the game is. A game like Photosynthesis takes up as much shelf space as Gaia Project, Kanban, and The Great Zimbabwe combined.
Vindication, you're a bit mistaken, you actually only use one of those miniatures ever in the game. And it's an optional game variant. The other 5 or 6 miniatures in there are just table art, they represent a guild and never enter the board. What's worse is that the retail version at around up bucks doesn't have these, but still had the massive box and half empty insert.
I paid 80 for without minis and the store sold with for 100. The expansion may have use for the minis sp ive backed the expansion and added the minos to my pledge. In vindications case ive enjoyed the game so much im happy to add the minis to my game. However i own grim forest because my wife saw it at the store and wanted it. Very disapointed with jow overproduced that game is. Game is too basic ro merit the added cost and storage space it takes up. The production of grim forest is why we bought it and its why i want to getrid of it.
Thank you for another excellent video. I think component quality and visual presence on the table ("look and feel") are just as important as the game mechanics. When both of these meet and you throw in an interesting theme we get games like Scythe, my favorite game of all time. And getting these upgraded deluxe components piece by piece (only missing the metal mechs now) has really been a great experience itself. Vindication is something I'm really looking forward to, did you have the time to play it already? Have a great week!
Really enjoy your videos because I think you always get your point(s) across really well. For me personally, I'm the type of gamer who always prefers the upgraded components. I think it helps bring out the theme a little more, it helps me get more immersed into the game, it gives a better table presence, they're nicer to look at and usually nicer to handle. I love metal coins, I love realistic resources, etc. So I know for me personally, I would always prefer to pay extra to get those nice components right in the core game. I dropped $189 on Nemesis to get the kickstarter version with the extra minis, slime tokens, upgraded components etc. Last year I paid $105 to get the KS version of Empires of the Void II instead of dropping $50 for the retail version because I wanted the metal coins, the plastic mini, and the upgraded components. I definitely understand what you're saying about the price tag though, and I think a good example is probably Scythe. Everything you need to play the game came right in the box. But I know for me personally, I ordered Scythe and the metal coins, as soon as I got the game I opened it, looked at everything, and when I saw the wooden cube-like resources, I knew I didn't want to play until I bought the realistic resource upgrades. I know this is not how everyone else would feel, and I only made this decision because I knew there was a realistic resource upgrade, but I also knew that for me the realistic resources would help immerse me in the game more and I would enjoy playing with them over the wooden pieces. I got Gloomhaven for Christmas this year, but I still haven't played it. I won't play it until I get an organizer and the realistic resource upgrades. On the other hand, I definitely get the idea of how something can feel "overproduced" based off what the game offers. A good example that came to mind is Carcassonne, I don't need unique fully painted minis to play Carcassonne, the wooden meeples for that game is fine. I will say for me personally though, I do wish that more games that had coins came with metal coins in the box. I hate when I find out a game has a metal coin or realistic resource upgrade but I either can't find them, or the only place I can find them is on ebay for twice the price of the base game. The last thing that came to mind is this is a good example of why I don't care as much as some other reviewers do about repeated themes. The reason for that is, now that I have Nemesis and some really great looking alien minis, if another game about aliens came out but had cubes in the box to represent them, I could always grab my Nemesis minis and use them in the game instead. But if the game being put out has a pretty unique theme, I'd prefer getting good components to represent it. Again, it would just help to immerse me in the theme of it.
I think playtime and re-playability are big equalizers for so called "over produced" games. Just like video games, I have no problem paying more money for a game that will provide hundreds of hours of play time over many, many play sessions compared to a game that has very little play time or re-playability. I don't care how amazing the minis or other components are, if it only makes it to the table and provides little fun once or twice a year it's not worth as much to me compared to a less expensive game with standees and cubes that I really enjoy and will play once a month or more. ...But if that "over produced" game gets to the table often and provides hours of entertainment it's well worth the cost every time.
Very well stated on all points here. I love big beautiful games with stunning table presence. But production level/quality/style should compliment the game style, mechanics, and target audience. One of the few recent examples of overproduction that I actually agree with is Everdell. It's super cool looking and immediately grabbed my attention, but the problem is that it prioritizes aesthetic over function with the tree component blocking off an entire side of the board. If it somehow negatively effects the actual playability of the game, or if it causes the price to be highly disproportionate to the gaming experience itself, then overproduction might be worth addressing. Otherwise I'm all for designers and publishers continually raising the bar on production values.
Would love to know your thoughts on one game I feel is over produced: Oceanos. The subs are awesome the first time but it's a simple collection game and it's one of the few games I won't get out because I don't want to deal with sorting them all out for the experience you get.
It's been a while since I played it, and I remember it being mostly cardboard (which is not expensive to make). Is it the player mats that you didn't like?
@@jameystegmaier it's all cardboard, which doesn't scream overproduction at all. But as you upgrade, you swap in new sub pieces you sort through the pile, find the New piece, etc... so you have at least twice the table space taken up of the player board. And all for what light collection game that could have accomplished with a simple player board and some cubes.
Table presence is certainly important in so many ways - desirability of getting it to the table, support of the arts, and purchasing interest to name a few. Unfortunately, games feel like they're pricing themselves away from people who would like to purchase the game, but can't afford it due to unnecessary (not necessary for gameplay) upgrades. In particular, the drive to minis that remain grey & unpainted can actually detract from table presence while driving up cost.
I agree that an over-produced game is one where the perceived value is less than it's cost. As you mentioned, an example is a particular miniature not used fully. Or as someone else mentioned, where a large miniature doesn't have a function that is appropriate for it's size. However, there is another side to this that relates to how often a particular game is being played. If a game is played often, the perceived value likely increases. I don't mind paying more for deluxe items in a game I'm going to play often. I'll buy or pay extra for items (metal coins, fancy components, and inserts) when a game is being played more than a few times. As a matter of fact, that adds to the experience, knowing that you got the extra stuff for a game that you and you group like a lot. For example, we purchased the metal Viticulture coins which add to the game experience, and for us, it was equivalent to buying an expansion of sorts. Unfortunately, sometimes those extra items are not readily available after the game has been out for awhile, especially here in Canada. It would be nice if there were more deluxe versions of games, so that if you have a pretty good idea you're going to like a game, you can buy the deluxe version, otherwise buy the regular version. Oh, and to add to the comment about Scythe standee mechs... no please! I would rather see under-size minis than standees anytime.
The wooden dinosaur "meeple" in Evolution. It is HUGE and it's only used as a first player marker, though it's not hard to figure out who's first player at any given moment. It's good for putting next to the watering hole and look nice and not much else I think. Could've been a cardboard standee like Stone Age. That may knock the cost down a few pegs. And the physical weight and increase portability.
I'm not gonna flag any publisher or creator for making a game with expensive beautiful components. My perspective about a game is it's a luxury item and an art piece. It gives jobs to illustrators and sculptors, etc. I cannot say to an artist, don't produce an artwork that I cannot afford, cheapen your materials and reduce your quality of work. Same with board games. That being said, I think the publisher is still responsible with trying to manage and balance the cost of their game to match the projected spend of their target audience.
But unlike art, board games are still games. You end up playing it, I'm not gonna pay a hefty price just because it looks good. I don't care how goodlooking the game if it's above the budget for what it brings to the table, I won't buy it. Of course different people may be willing to offer a larger price and there is no denying that a pleasant looking game adds to the fun factor. I don't see games as a luxury item, I see board games as games I want to enjoy. Miniatures are fun to have, but I would be willing to forego them for standees (ugh) if it makes the game more affordable.
Perfectly said. I think pricing is the important part. Gimm Forest being a great example. It was a little pricer than some games but absolutely beautiful and totally worth it. If they had charged $120 for it I would have said it was overPRICED not overPRODUCED. Games should strive for highest quality of their components and artwork etc while not inflating price needlessly and blaming it on quality.
This makes a lot of since, though i think it can also come down to the feeling the component gives you when its used. For example, In the Grimm Forest, as you mentioned, the Big Bad Wolf is seldom used, if at all. However, when your the person that gets to play that card, or the recipient of that card, the feeling of placing that miniature on the location is extremely satisfying. I dont think you would get the same feel if it were, say a card, or cardboard token. There is something satisfying about slamming down that mini on top of your friends locations. This is something I have seen taken into account (be it conciously or not) in Stonemaier's Games. The feeling of dropping the wooden food dice in the bird feeder, is deeply satisfying, or as in MvM, moving giant robots around seemingly aimlessly, smashing all of the minions in your path.
Often times when a game is called overproduced I think gamers really mean that they wish the money was spent elsewhere. Like vindication, many people wish the character standees were miniatures instead of those tokens that don’t get used often. Often times ks backers wish the publisher favored more gameplay content over deluxe component upgrades. One place I’ve never heard complaints about overproducing is art. So having as much good and unique art as you can afford seems like one of the safer investments. It’s definitely been a big draw for Wingspan.
I remember hitting that with an old hobby game called Dragon Strike, the 1992 1 vs all Dungeon Crawl game where one player is a GM. It had some pretty good minis for 1992 and good cardboard punchouts...but the map, cards, and character sheets left a lot to be desired, as well as some scaling is just off for the minis. Maps have inconsistant square sizes where some square bases of the minis encroach over lines (if the mini didn't have limbs that encroach into other squares in the first place, like the Dragon and Gargoyles. A special shout out goes to the troll mini where it took up 2 squares with its base...but was called a single square mini in the (player's) rule book...whoops) while all of the cards and character sheets were printed on Photo Paper. While it's not as big of a problem with the character sheets, the card backs were the photo side, so the cards are easy to mark from regular shuffling. The bases for the punch out doors worked well. The bases to stand up the character sheets...not so much. The game is skewed towards the GM winning, as there's not enough time for the players to do the objectives before the dragon appears, and most of the time the dragon either spawns in the same room as a major objective or in the path of the heroes escaping the map. And, of course the dragon is the most OP monster in the game (3 attacks per activation if within melee range, has a special ranged attack, highest speed in the game, Its defense means that most characters can't SCRATCH it). It was a mess, to say the least, even if you ignore the components.
I don't think I've ever used the term "over-produced", but I do classify games as "garish" and "lavish", both being in an "over-produced" category. Some games benefit from "extras", while others are doing it either as a vanity project or cash grab. I think you definitely hit the primary element for this complaint (and what I would classify as garish), as including components that have little to no use in a game. Kind of like food, too much of a good thing can spoil the experience. I love ginger, but if you go ham on it and put a whole root of ginger in the stir fry, it makes the dish inedible. There is a much bigger equation here as well. For me, I prefer highly portable games, so games with "golden cocoon" boxes really turn me off. IMHO, your game should fit perfectly in the box, with perhaps space for a potential expansion. I find your episode on "will the expansion fit in the box" intriguing based on this idea. I really like how you solved the problem with Scythe by offering the "one box to contain them all." I think, relative to your discussion, the key point here is that you made it optional. A person could CHOOSE to purchase it, but is not required to. But I also LOVE lavish games, I remember fondly getting my first copy of Space Alert with glass bits. I paid alot more for it, but having glass components made it feel special. I also love translucent dice. When used in context, these can be highly thematic and add to the flavor of a game without overpowering it. But I think you need to step back and realize one of the truisms in sales; "You can't please all the people all the time." I love the "tiny epic" series of games. I personally think iteMeeples are garish, though. There are people that think iteMeeples are highly innovative. I don't use them in my games and while I personally would prefer not to have had those components, I think it was a useful add since there is a large cross-section who do enjoy it. TLDR; Make a great product, keep it reasonably affordable and listen to the MAJORITY opinion and things will work out.
just an addendum, I think my comment on the glass bits highlighted a point for me. More games are considered over-produced now because it is no longer special, but has become the norm. I think if every other game didn't try to outdo each other on the amount of metal or plastic in the box, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I do understand and certainly agree with your point of view. You should also consider what happens to the price when a game is sold in another country. I'll give you my example. Rising Sun is absolutely awesome and beautiful but its so ridiculously expensive here in Brazil (the game is worth HALF of a minimum wage salary) that i cant hold myself from thinking there should be at least a cheaper/simpler version where all those cool minis are simple tolkens so more people can actually buy and play the game
An important factor I don’t think you touch on is that sometimes big fancy pieces can be cumbersome in ways that hurts the game. I haven’t played it, but I’m told the otherwise gorgeous Everdell tree can make the board hard for some players to see. And I’ve called the structures in Viticulture overproduced, because figuring out which wooden piece is the cottage or a cellar you just built can add more annoyance than the benefit the individual pieces bring to the (great) game.
As another viewpoint--although I appreciate good table presence in games, my problem with some games, especially with miniatures, is the size of the box and storage. I live in a small apartment and have very limited space for game storage. I would often prefer other components to large miniatures for this reason since large boxes sometimes take the place of 2-3 other games I could have instead. In addition, it makes it much harder for me to travel with games to play with friends, especially when I go home across states for holidays, when games are large and heavy. The best example for this is Dice Throne. I love the look and storage of the game as many have praised. However, as a game that basically consists of some decks of cards and dice, I would have definitely sacrificed the custom boxes made for sleeved cards for a much more compact box. Especially now that there are multiple sets, each in huge boxes, it means I will rarely if ever take this with me to game night and makes it much more likely I may have to sell it eventually to make space for other games since the season 2 box is the size of about three Ticket to Ride size boxes.
@B Palmer It is only kind of optional. One does not need it for the base game, but the maxiture is necessary for the special scenario that turns the game from a board game to a skirmish wargame.
Maybe kingdom death monster. There is one enormous miniature which probably costs $100 by itself. The game overall is $400. A price point he lets slip out later in the video.
I agree with the point of developers and publishers striving to release games with a nice table presence, which is why I don't normally use the term but I've heard it and sometimes I will agree, like in the case of "Council of four", a game that I own and like, but it rarely bothers me, as long as it doesn't get in the way of gameplay.
I hope publishers selling or offering print and play files. That way anyone who considers something overproduced can make their own copy their own specs. I still buy games because it takes a long time to hand craft one yourself. Print and plays are also nice to have though to replace components
Some things that some might consider over produced I wish were in more games, incidentally - Dice per player in games that have a lot of die rolling, rather than just e.g. 2 dice if the most that's going to be rolled at once is two (Still, there are some companies that don't always ), pencils in games with scorepads/roll and writes/word games where you write your words down. Just minor convenience things that speed the game up slightly or mean I'm less likely to need to bring something into the game from outside of it.
Chucking a nuclear bomb at a derelict building doesn't make you a demolition expert; placing the exact amount of explosives required to make the building collapse gracefully does. Chucking more money at the production of a game does not make you a design master; using the exact amount of money required to achieve the desired atmosphere and gameplay functionality does. More luxurious components ≠ better components.
Great video and I mostly agree with overproduced as you define it. This video brought to you buy Purina "Tidy Cats". Jamey says, "I can barely smell it!"
Agree with your points in many regards Jamey. I enjoy a beautifully produced game more even if I wasn't the biggest fan of the gameplay. I can appreciate the extra effort taken by the publisher for putting in the effort to wow me. But, I definitely wouldn't want them to do it at the expense of good gameplay. Also, I think there's a fine balance in there of how often the pieces (that were probably incredibly expensive to produce) are used in the game. It does ratchet up the price and sometimes at the detriment of the sales of the game. But at the same time, I have a harder time getting into games that don't have great components to go along with it. I will say that the theme in Viticulture isn't necessarily the biggest draw for me, but my wife (who is from Italy) wanted to try the game so I sat down to play with her. Not only did the mechanics draw me in from the start but the component quality was so great that it's currently sitting on my top 10 games of all time video from last year. I actually bought the metal coins for that game because I've enjoyed it so much and I wanted to make my copy feel more complete. There's something to be said for upgrading your favorite games. It's funny you brought up the Grimm Forest. We are getting ready to release our own review on it and I (Kas) actually believe that the game's table presence is very well done. It's such a simple one to get into (mechanically speaking) that the production quality helps to keep me even more interested in it. Thanks for continuing to do interesting videos like this. They keep me thinking!
For me the term „overproduced“ stands mostly for investing production ressources in the false spots. I see publishers intend to put more and more stuff into the box, trying to add value by quantity. Sadly the quality of the contend or components stays mediocre. So my wish would be that publishers improve the quality of the core, when they have the ressources to do that, before adding extras.
First, thanks for the videos! "Over produced" is an odd phrase because I feel like the designer/company gets to choose and I'm typically cool with that. Mezo is a game that I backed because I dig the designer's previous games. The four foot tall minis didn't 8nfluence my decision to buy but...I went all in. Does Mezo need all that? Don't know but I can't wait to see if production & game play matches the components! Cheapass was a company that I bought many games from back when they came in envelopes and that was also fun.
I totally LOVE games with high quality materials, such as miniatures and great ressources for example. Like you said- my eyes are playing the game, too. My favorite games (like Trickerion and Scythe) are my favorites because of their beauty and deep theme- not so much because their mechanics. I want to feel the game while playing it. That is very important for me and much much easier with great components you want to stare at all the time. :) The higher money cost is not that important for me. Not because I have to much money ;), but because I´m selecting my board games to purchase rarely. We are board gamers and have about 100-120 games in our collection. My husband and I cannot play more games in a year. That is the amount we can afford our time in. I buy maybe all 2 to 3 months a new board game. And when new games are coming in, other games who weren´t played in a long time are going. Money is important, if you want to buy 50 new publications in Essen. Rewiever do that. But I think a lot of board gamer like me do not. Last to say: The only game I could name in the term of "over-producing" may be Tainted Grail. I still hesitate to paint all the miniatures, cause they are (like you said) only used so rarely in the game... and I wonder wheter the time will pay off by painting them. And when I don´t want to paint a miniature (a must have to me ^^, I don´t like that plasticgrey) THEN it might be over-produced.... Although- to be fair- it was my own choice to back the miniatures 😄. But that is the only example I was sad because of game components yet. But only, because I hoped, they would be on the table more often.
High quality components are not "over produced" for me. Miniatures are. I am never going to paint a mini. I hate doing it. Painting is one of the reasons I do not play table top war games anymore. I would rather have nice standees or really, painted meeples like Root. To me that is still distinguishing on the board, but not plastic, which is not fantastic. My only real exception to plastic would be in the form of Game Trayz, which are a great "over production" to add to a game. Great storage solutions are worth their weight in gold. Especially if it makes vertical storage easier without resorting to baggies.
I actually think that you did a great job with the Rise of Fenris, without spoiling too much I'm specifically talking about reusing the same components in a different way.
It's odd. It's not that you're saying anything wrong, but I have so many good memories of, say, Cheapass and Steve Jackson. Indeed, my very best RPG memories involve a fistful of dice and a ringbinder, and often no published material of any kind (of course it takes a special crowd to truly wing everything). From that perspective, it sometimes seems like *everything* is overproduced. Or in slightly more produced things, Talon could have had plastic spaceships and ship systems charts, but the simple dry-erase finished tokens work so much better. Don't get me wrong, I love what you did with Scythe and I agree with someone below about how magical the physical redesign of Santorini 2016 somehow is. Components *are* important. So then there're the old Seventh Seal editions of Axiom, the angular ones. It's a pure abstract, I know, but could anything be more beautiful? That one is exactly right :). Evidently I don't have a point here, other than that it's possible-and wonderful-to do it all inside your head, but it's oh so amazing when the physical design comes together as well.
I was thinking along the same lines when I listened to Jamey. An argument could be made that as long as players can distinguish pieces, cards and parts of the board from each other enough to play the game, anything beyond that should be "overproducing" right? But the thing is the "artefact" aspect. I love this game so I want it to look great on the table and in my collection. I want it to look and feel like it does in my imagination when I play it, to some extent. And when I show the game to other people, I want them to feel what I feel when I play it, see what I see. And then tons of cubes just won't do it.
@@jameystegmaier a quick google search makes this conversation a little awkward... To explain - when you mentioned a game having a component that is nice but not essentially necessary I thought of the reviews I've seen recently for Wingspan (which I definitely knew you made when I wrote that comment) which note it's high production value and all seem to rave about the included dice tower. I was trying to theorize as to what game you were talking about more than making a comment about Wingspan. I also see you have WS at $55 MSRP ( ebay disagrees) which is reasonable for any premium game. I haven't played WS but based on reviews it is a planned purchase when it once again becomes available. I apologize for any offense.
@@bombconnery I think what I said in the video is that as a designer and publisher I would avoid extravagant components that are rarely used (like if they don't even appear in most sessions of the game). The dice tower in Wingspan is used constantly throughout every game. I'm very happy we included it--it has a great table presence and it didn't overinflate the price of the game.
I think I know the exact game you are talking about and had the same reaction. From looking at the Kickstarter page I was surprised by the price. Yes the were a lot of pieces, but I wasn’t clear I would like the game that much. It would be a great deluxe copy if I already were able to play the game. But, was a bit much for a Kickstarter that while it looked attractive it didn’t have a “cool” factor. Once you know you love a game buying a extravagantly produced game is more tempting, but you want to make sure you’re going to like playing the game. So I didn’t bak this $99 Kickstarter, while Batman was based on the Conan gameplay, so it is proven and I has extravagant quality, so I was willing to spend several times that. Great thoughts and I hope that game that was on KS comes out so I can play it. The company has done great stuff, and I wish them all the best.
I wonder if they'll consider making two versions (retail and deluxe). While that isn't a model I pursue in the post-Kickstarter world, it seems to work pretty well on Kickstarter.
I think Vindication is an example of overproduction. For a game that is a very fun experience, the miniatures don’t add to the amazing theme of the game. One thing Jamey didn’t touch on was how it affects weight and shipping. Be it from a online store or kickstarter, that can be an extra £10-20 ($15-30) based on weight in shipping alone.
I'm not actually someone who uses that term that much, as I really appreciate high production and even love to bling out games myself be it for function, decor purposes or both. But I do think game weight and length factors highly into this. The more time you spend with a game, the more value and appreciation you are likely to put onto its production, same goes for the more you invest into the game be it with brainpower or thematic immersion. This makes you more forgiving about the price point in the first place, at least that's how I tend to feel. If a game is lighter and shorter, I am much more price sensitive, than if the game is longer and more complex. In the case of Council of Four, I think the biggest reason people are calling that particular game overproduced has more to do with how CMONs version (complete colourful graphical overhaul and miniatures galore) compares in price to Cranio Creations original version (muted colours, simple artwork and wooden tokens). The CMON version is vastly superior in most ways, but at around twice the price of the original (at least that is the case where I live), it's harder to swallow.
Very interesting! I want a game to look good on my table. I also understand price point as I am on a fixed income. Thank you! I am looking forward to getting Wingspan it looks great and looks fun! I will enjoy pealing the shrink wrap off and opening the lid for the first time - that is exciting!
Isn't everyone on a fixed income other than salesmen who get paid commission? I hate this term. It implies that pensioners are living some hardship while the rest of us have wildly fluctuating incomes from pay check to pay check. Fixed income = getting paid without working until you die. The rest of us = maybe we get paid, maybe we get fired and lose our income entirely. I'll take a guaranteed pension over work for a paycheck any day of the week.
@@Steve-yd9ki Social Security does not necessarily get raises like people in the workforce might - that's all I meant. There is no way I will get a promotion anymore.
@@jkledis I've been in Europe too long. In European speak you're a "pensioner" which makes a lot more sense to me than "fixed income" which sort of implies everyone who isn't a pensioner has unlimited or variable income or something.
You've stated this very well. I'm always a bit baffled to see how negative people get tossing around "overproduced" comments about fantastic games. I *want* games on my table to look beautiful. While I want an enjoyable play experience, part of that (for me) is having a game that looks nice and feels nice. Hands down, my most played games are those that I enjoy looking at and interacting with. Even setup time doesn't feel like as much of a chore when handling nice components. I will happily pay $5-10 more MSRP to have thicker, linen cards and upgraded components as *appropriate* for the game. I'm becoming pickier about storage in games as well and always love to see well-organized games. (Wingspan's organization is great due to having a "map" of where everything goes!) I can understand where some games may feel overproduced for reasons you said - if a component that isn't central to the game has really been splurged on, likely raising the cost of the game for no important reason. However, I see far more games that are underproduced than over. If it comes with cards or "boards" already warped it's really disappointing. If it comes with paper money instead of at least upgrading to cardboard, it's pretty sad. If resource cubes are painted plastic and the paint is chipping off during the first play, I'm not very happy. Poor component quality can make a great game seem like only a good game, for me, and it's sad to sometimes have to rate a game lower than I want just because the components make it less enjoyable. I think setting an "average" quality standard and sticking to it is often fine. Cardboard punchouts of decent quality are fine for resources in most games. Linen cards should be standard. I don't mind using standees or meeples if it keeps the entry level cost of the game down either. Offering other upgrades such as wooden resources, metal coins, miniatures, etc. as additional purchase is a great way to keep the MSRP down while giving a game's fans a way to take their experience up a notch.
I’m ok with the term overproduced & I am a sucker for it. Here is my only question: is the game fun even without the bling. If it is, then bring on the awesome components, the metal coins, etc. I love every second of it.
I think it's as simple as "does the production match the value I get out of the game". The answer will be different for everyone, but as a publisher your goal is to find that sweet spot. In this discussion you focused entirely on the components. Components aren't the only cost in making a game. If a game required a lot of non-component costs (specifically artwork, graphic design, design itself, story, among others) I'd imagine a publisher might decide to embellish (appropriately, in my opinion) some components they can get a decent margin on so consumers are more willing to spend the money. Whether we like it or not most consumers will not take the time to consider these costs that are invisible to them. But like anything else there are exceptions. People pay a high price for Time Stories' expansions, relative to the cost of the components, because they appreciate the experience they get, and can imagine the effort that goes into making one (similar to a book or movie, for example). That would be tougher to justify for a game like No Thanks, which I would not pay $100 for a premium edition despite really loving that game. (I would say the same for CodeNames if it was released on tiles!)
I generally have to buy a game to play it, so, even with reviews, I am hesitant to spend more than $50-70 for something I or my spouse might not like. I love upscale components, but would only be willing to pay the extra $20-30 dollars on something that for sure will see a lot of repeat plays. It would be nice if some upgrades could be sold separately like the suits in Anachrony are. Driving up the base price point too much reduces accessibility of the game. I really don't understand pricing vs components. I don't yet own Wingspan, but the price seems great for the way it looks. There are also great value games like a Quest for El Dorado (multiple boards) or Forbidden Desert (nice tiles, plastic airship). Some games amaze me for the price, and others are underwhelming.
My feelings are that a game is 'overproduced' if the extra bits of production gets in the way of the gameplay. (The most common form of that I see is via minis that unless painted are difficult to tell apart, though board art that makes the board harder to read can happen). Better components enhance the gameplay experience, absolutely. Except for when they don't, and it's those moments - when a better component not only doesn't enhance the gameplay experience, but actively detracts from it by making the game harder to actually play, for example making it so that I can't easily tell my pieces from yours, or where yours are on the board - that I consider overproduced. Maybe there's a better term for what I mean when I say overproduced, since in some cases higher levels of production would fix the issue (e.g. pre-painted minis), though I tend to specify what specific issue I'm having "This is overproduced - I can't easily tell where my opponent's pieces are on the board due to how detailed the board art is" I'd tend to say "too expensive for what the game offers for me" for what you're talking about.
For me over production is where an item, such as a player board, counter, or any part/component of a board game is obviously expensive to produce but is not either practical or clear. Some components are all style over actual function. I want beautiful games, I want game makers to take chances but function should always come first for me. I have a few games in mind here!
I don't like that word... I love pretty games. I find absolutely underproduced games though are almost all 'Ravensburger alea' games. Most are great games like Burgundy for instance. This is one of my favorites but it's just so ugly and the components are flimsy. I feel like this might sound corny but if a game has your company's logo on it, I know it will hit my sweetspot. Wonderful components, great table presence, awesome gameplay and reasonably priced. You and your team are doing it right, all the way! Thank you Jamey, for being so humble and everything you contribute to the gaming community. (Is March here yet?? Waiting for wingspan!!!). Peace. P.S.: have you read 'Iron Gold' yet? When will this be a game of yours?? ☺
There are few gamers in my group that sneer at so-called "overproduced" games and I find it really odd. I buy lots of expansions and I do create DIY or buy extra quality resources for my favourite games aswell, of which I have deluxe version aswell. I think Roxley's Brass: Birmingham is a great example of a well done, quality produced game. The original Brass is a sore to my eyes but the new one is amazing and part of the reason that I chose it as my GOTY 2018 was the look of the overall game and the quality of components.
Thanks for the video, Jamey. After watching it and considering the term "oveproduced", I don't see how it can possibly have any universal meaning that we will all agree on. It reminds me of the automobile industry. Will a Jaguar get me from point A to point B? Of course. But so will a Corolla. If that is the only consideration, then the cheapest, sparest option in every area of our lives would be the obvious choice. I don't believe that we all feel that way, though. Judging by the incredible success of many miniature-heavy games on Kickstarter, I can only conclude that a lot of people like minis! I personally do not find that they add a lot of value to a game, mainly because I'm not a miniature painter, and an unpainted miniature usually doesn't look all that nice. So I would rather have a wooden meeple or a cardboard standee than a miniature. Does that mean the game with all the minis is overproduced? I don't think so; it simply isn't to my taste and doesn't cater to my skills and interests. Your video also brought to mind your company's latest game, Wingspan, which I recently purchased and got to play. Could it have been made with punched cardboard instead of eggs? Of course. Could the dice have been plastic instead of wooden? Sure. Did we really need a dice tower to play the game? Of course not. Could the player boards have been half as thick? I'm sure that was possible. Would those changes have reduced the price? I'm not a manufacturer, but common sense tells me that some if not all of those alterations would have made the game cheaper. Does that mean that Wingspan is overproduced? I don't think so. Each one of the things I mentioned above adds to my enjoyment of the game, and is thematic to boot! When I think back on games I've played, I think it would be difficult to find one that couldn't have been made more cheaply. Even Monopoly. Do we really need metal tokens? Hardly. Plastic would do just fine. So (if anyone is still reading my comment by this point ) I think labeling any game as "overproduced" is a slippery slope. The end result, which is the message I got from your video, is that could influence publishers to make games more and more cheaply, which wouldn't be a good thing for the industry in my opinion. So please, Jamey, keep making beautiful games, and let's encourage everyone else to do the same!
Definitely interesting to hear your perspective (designer/publisher). I'd be surprised if the average gamer gets this detailed about why a game is "overproduced" (i.e. is a specific component worth the cost of the game?). For me, I'm a big fan of aesthetically pleasing games (e.g. nice components). However, I get a little irritated when designers/publishers try and sell games that look amazing but have broken mechanisms.
Hey man, I know you must not be making money from doing these videos but we really appreciate them and I want you to keep doing it. Love your games.
Thanks Julian! Indeed, I do not monetize my videos. :)
I also want to thank you for sharing your honest thoughts! As a publisher sharing the publisher's view, you must be aware that you are opening yourself up to some negative feedback as well. So I appreciate your candour, and I appreciate your efforts in trying to help us consumers "work" with publishers better. Please continue to produce your beautiful games!!
(The gorgeousness and theme of Viticulture is what finally got my husband to try and actually like a Euro-style game, and I am forever grateful!)
For me, if it does not have beautiful artwork i have a hard time purchasing it (i cannot think of an ugly game on my shelf.) Games like tokaido, above and below and the recent brass update make me want to play it. The brass update being a prime example, where no one would have called the original a good looking game but the new version is staggeringly beautiful. The best touch is the 2 sided board with day on one side and night on the other. I don't think that is an over produced aspect, just a nice touch especially if the game is going to be on the table a lot.
I am not a minis guy (maybe when my kids get older i will learn to paint with them) and am quite happy with cardboard cutout and stand approach.
Stonemaier Champions are paying to support his blogs and his youtube videos. I think that is the perfect way to do it.
A bigger problem for me is Underproduced games that still charge a premium. Cough* Terraforming Mars cough*
Yes!!!!! TM is one of my all time favorites and i feel like it doesn't come close to the quality of production of Stonemaier games even though it's a similar price point. Compared to Wingspan which costs about the same, TM is severely lacking. Heard they were doing a deluxe version in 2020... ...so maybe it will be better, but will probably cost a ton
@@ServiceDogPuppyRaiser - This is most likely cause it was mostly produced in the USA which has higher costs for many things. It's actually surprising they pulled off what they did for that price (though some things were still imported).
@@miniongames huh, very interesting. Thanks for sharing!
Terraforming Mars is charging you for all the game that is there, which is alot, and the fact that is one of the greatest games made in the last decade. Even now there is a demand for it.
@@erickenneycreative that logic they owe ME money.
I think Zee from the Dice Tower recently said something to the effect of "Does it create a disconnect between what you expect from the game and its components?" I like that definition of overproduced. When I first played Abyss, I was utterly surprised it was a nice little card game with some bidding. It looked like it was going to be some sort of underwater warfare game based on the box size, art, and aesthetic. I also recognize that some "overproduced" games are also games I wouldn't enjoy even if they were cheaper.
I think you do a fabulous job of balancing production value with experience value. Stonemaier games are some of our most favorite games. I always say, if im gonna spend hours looking at a game, i want it to be beautiful and inviting and fun to experience in every way. Wingspan hits all of those in every possible way... for everyone who had played it with us😀
Brought to you by Tidy Cats. Just playing. Love everything you do, Jamey!!!
Please continue to gift us with your beautifully made games :)
I've often wished that publishers would offer cardboard figures with the base game, with minis being an optional upgrade.
I love "pimped out" games, especially for the games I play frequently, but hate paying for fancy components because I'm forced to do so. Some games just don't need them, and actually suffer because of them, imho.
I hate minis because they're a huge PITA. They make storage a nightmare, and identifying specific characters if you don't paint them is really difficult.
Great point. The Walking Dead No Sanctuary offered either version but can't think of others. Cuts the price in half (or doubles if you want minisl. Though I would pay double for a mini version of Dead of Winter.
Agree...especially in kickstarter world. I've never KSd but would if I could get a cheaper option with standees....
The big thing is the price of the molds and sculpts for the minis, not the production cost. Some of that does get baked into the cost of the game but a lot of games just wouldn't see that much of a price reduction with no minis in the box.
If you don't want to pay for a game, don't buy it. Pretty simple.
The one and only game I ever thought "I wish there was an "underproduced" version of this" was Cthulhu Wars. I heard about it, I saw it, I saw the price, I thought "ok, not for me, moving on", but then I played it.... and I loved it. It is such an amazing game, and I really wanted to have it in my collection, but I can't afford it. Maybe in the future I can, but what if I can't find it to buy it anymore when I have the money for it? I really wanted them to have a low cust version, with either smaller miniatures or just plain old tokens to represent the monsters, and have the current version of the game be sold as a Deluxe Version.
For other games, I never thought about it. Even now, after what you said about Vindication and I realized that I own everything about Mansions of Madness and Imperial Assault, and there are some miniatures that only appear in one or anothe mission. I don't have a problem with that, I think it is very cool.
Thanks for the videos and I wish you a great sunday and a good week as well! ^^
Agree. Where I am in life I can easily afford Sandy Petersen's over produced monstrosities but I definitely still gripe about it. I paid almost double the retail price for the High Priests expansion which, even at $19.99 retail is clearly over priced to begin with. Just because you have money doesn't mean you like being ripped off.
Not a real gamer, yet here are 2 stories that are relevant.
1. Decades ago I bought a vintage copy of Risk from an acquaintance, so I could have the nice old wooden pieces instead of the cheesy new plastic pieces. I paid a lot, but didn't care.
2. I just bought a copy of Skull, even though I currently have no social situation in which I would be able to play it. I just adore the way it looks. Maybe I'll use the skulls as coasters.
Sometimes, production values are EVERYTHING.
Everdell's Ever Tree. It casts a shadow on the components on the bottom of it and forces you to have to stand up to read the events on its elevated platform. It also forces players to draw from one side of the draw pile only.
I might be in the minority here but i prefer having the minis on Council of 4. Table presence aside, it also helps convey information on the board state faster and clearer in a quick glance. I really like it when I can "read" the board state of a game very quickly.
Yes, the Ever tree is unnecessary, but it's just a cardboard piece that doesn't add too much to the price of the game.
@@blackboardgaming5348 even it bumps up the price of the game just a single dollar, it would still be an overproduction IMO as it worsens the gameplay experience. I had to stand up so many times to check the event cards on the platform.
The only bad part of the ever tree imo is that on a square table it is difficult to find a good place for it. If it sits in the corner it is likely to get knocked by an elbow and if it's on an edge it's in the way. On a rectangular table it's so far away from some people that they can't see anything on it. I love the way it looks but I do agree that in some cases it makes for a bit of headache.
The Ever Tree also doesn't stand up well to multiple assemblies/disassemblies. Mine started to separate after just a few plays.
Similarly, the Battle Mode SDF-1 in Robotech: Attack on the SDF-1 is so fiddly to assemble that I've vowed to simply never take it apart. And all it does it sit on the board to show that Battle Mode is active. It actually can get in the way of gameplay as you sometimes need to pick it up to access pieces near/under it. Meanwhile, the cardboard character standees, pieces that you move frequently, often separate from their bases.
I'm one of those weirdos who likes the EverTree, and I sprung for the wooden version in the latest kickstarter :D
One of the best things about Scythe, our favorite game, is the amazing artwork. We spend time with the encounter cards to look at the scene in the encounter, the art on the box, the mats, everything. I agree! I love a game that looks good and plays fun. A good look can make a big difference. That is why we upgraded our resources, and I plan on painting the characters and mechs. I like having games that look great. The other example is the amazing art in Wingspan. The bird cards are gorgeous!! Mansions of Madness, the tiles, and the mythos creatures add so much!! I can’t think of a game where I thought the game was over done for what the game was. I have seen under produced games. I wanted more special components, but I guess there is a balance.
I always love to hear your weighted and valuable opinion, Jamey. Please keep doing these videos.
Even when a component is not often used, it can add value to the game. My friends and I just finished Destinies, and from the start, we knew that the game has 5 scenarios. Every time we opened the box, we were curious about where the 4 scenario campaign was leading to, as it certainly would use the big bad miniature. So for us, even though it was only used in 1 scenario, this one enormous miniature added a lot of value to the game. It was something to look forward to.
Thanks for sharing your view on the topic, Jamey!
This has probably been said already but I think “overproduced” means “I paid too much for this game”. Some games have pricepoints and gameplay that don’t seem to match up. I don’t want to buy an 80 dollar game that take less than 30 minutes. Some games don’t have a lot of variety so the replay ability is low despite it being a good game. I don’t want to pay 60-80 dollars for a game that is only fun three times. And as you talk about a lot, some games have components that aren’t used often or just isn’t necessary to be a miniature or something. CMON is notorious for doing this. I don’t want to pay 60-80 dollars for a game that doesn’t spend my money effectively. Sometimes the token doesn’t need to be a miniature. It’s just more respectful to the customer but not wasting a usually limited budget. Thus we have the term “overproduced”.
"Overproduced" is a good thing in my book (most of the time). It means that game components are better than other games at that price range, isn't it?
I'm late but was going to comment exactly this!
Let me say first: I love beautiful components and dont mind a $100+ msrp to get them. But more publishers might consider standies-only versions.
Exactly. I mean most of us in the hobby understand this is not a cheap hobby to get into. However the option for standees in all the mini games should absolutely always be an option for those that don;t want to pay so much just for the game mechanics.
For me there is a spectrum of "production value" which overlays another spectrum of "game play value."
And as game play value increases (i.e., very interesting mechanisms, tough decisions, little downtime between turns, optimal duration for the amount of complexity, etc.), so does my tolerance or even desire for higher production value.
But woe to the games that have their play value going in the opposite direction to their production value, which is how I define (degrees of) over-production.
Give me a solid gold Monoploy edition and with extreme prejudice I will smite it with a smelter and sell the raw ore.
However, give me a print-and-play version of Viticulture and I will play it to death, and lament that it was so under-produced.
Thanks for video this week, Jamey!
John: I like that idea of the overlapping spectrums.
How did I miss this great video? I'd love to see a top 10 game production items that just wowed you video.
This isn't exactly that, but it's close: th-cam.com/video/SfPFeIN7sbo/w-d-xo.html
Spill the beans, Jamey! What game is it?
Great to hear your thoughts.
I think that:
1) trying to make the nicest possible version of the game can create an accessibility issue. I feel like the ideal here is that a game can sell in big enough quantities to merit having multiple versions and allow some folk to buy a £20 cardboard version whilst other folk buy the £60 fancy version.
2) ecological impact must be considered
3) you are spot on with asking, 'how often is this thing interacted with?' Then again, we want some drama/spectacle for the things that happen less often.
4) it is ultimately down to the value proposition, as you yourself note. And many Stonemaier games show that the value proposition is bang on.
5) the most important thing is to increase the value proposition with things that don't have added cost for production. The art in Wingspan must have been expensive but that cost per unit will only continue to come down as the years go on. Proof-reading. Playtesting. Ruleswriting. Doing the best we can with whatever components we end up with.
One game I feel where the over production of the game really helped me get more interested in it was Santorini. From the worker minis to the buildings themselves and the elevated game board. The game could have easily been just a bunch of blocks, but for an abstract game I think it really helps immerse the players in the game. I think for an msrp of ~$30 really helped the game reach people instead of sticking with the bare minimum for probably half the cost for something that does not look nearly as good.
Jon, and then amazon went and sold it for 14$ at Christmas. Great deal.
I wouldn't really call it overproduced. The price point is sensible for a 2 player game and it doesn't go overboard with the components.
At most you could say it's $10 more expensive than the cheapest it could be sold, but it's not like it's a $50 game.
Great video, Jamey. Over the years, I've come to appreciate more and more those "little touches" that can sometimes add a considerable amount of enjoyment to a game. In many cases, publishers must know that the extra time or expense for an improved component will likely not be recouped in sales. I understand the business side of the equation, but I'm always happy to see evidence that for many (perhaps most) publishers, these games are also a labor or love. One example of an older game that isn't talked about much, and likely didn't rake in a ton of profit for the publisher is Dragon Parade by Z-Man. I don't think anyone would accuse this game of being 'overproduced.' It really only has a few components: board, pawns, cards, and coins. For what he must have expected to make on this game, it would have been easy to simply use standard player pawns, standard cardboard coins, and a "function first" design for the board. Instead, the game contains somewhat unique player pawns, thematic coins with a square cut-out in the middle (I know I'm weird to care about that, but it makes a difference), and a beautiful, very colorful board that looks great for the 20 minutes that it's on the table. So, here's to publishers for making all those little, unnecessary improvements that enhance our play experiences. May that trend long continue.
That’s a bomb ass sweater also btw.
Overproduced sweater.
It's interesting to see these insights considering the gold edition of Red Rising 08:45. I can see your experience and values coming though in action after these words with an affordable and deluxe version. Overproduction of a game, on the other hand, might also lead to taking longer to set up, it takes far longer to set up Scythe than many of my other games, but I think Scythe is well produced and balanced with the experience. If you add minis or something big to the set up for a small game it would actually prevent it from getting to the table as often. I'm fortunate enough that shelf space is more of a consideration than cost of my games so I love high production value, however it primarily needs to be a good game. Design trumps production but a board game is a luxury to begin with, so why can't we have it all?
Excellent Insights Jamey, thank you once again for starting a conversation in a constructive manner. I've had this conversation with my gaming group in the past specifically over miniatures. Miniatures can make a good game look great with their presence but they essentially don't add to the actual play of the game and can greatly increase production costs.
Tons of great comments here, haven't read them all but so far I haven't seen anyone bring up what I consider to be the elephant in the room: Kickstarter and marketing.
If we move from defining "what does overproduced mean?", we can discuss "why does it happen?". I think this is the Kickstarter effect, to some extent. The more the board gaming scene is pushed to selling on looks, first impression, cover art etc. the more use publishers will find in overproducing sine lavish art, tons of minis and components will show great on the internet (and that often, but not always of course, equals "show great on Kickstarter).
Think about movie trailers. Today there is a growing discussion around trailers that include scenes not even in the movie, because they look good for the trailer. I do not know if this has happened yet for a board game but an argument could be made to include, for example, a downright amazing miniature figure which you use to push the game online and create that first impression. Once you've gotten people's attention and sold them the game, it doesn't matter that the mini was only the starting player marker ... In just the same way, if I'm trying to sell a friend on a game via word-of-mouth, that "overproduced" mini will help me show the game to her/him a lot better than a fistful of cubes. Overproducing is marketing.
This is what I was thinking too.
Based on the thumbnail, I assumed it was regarding classic games like Chess and Checkers - overproduced as in quantity.
But a great topic, I love things having a strong table presence, unique pieces entirely for that one game, that's what I love!
Michael Langford that’s what I thought too haha
Jamey, I think you have solved the problem already. As a publisher who (I believe) likes nice componets, you released a retail version of Scythe at a really reasonable price. No components look second rate, and in fact, the cards and mechs look amazing. But after playing the game and falling in love with it, I can choose to acquire metal coins, realistic resources etc. I know the insert companies are third party, but I can elect the indulge there too. I must say, the metal mechs really enrich the table presence. These are all things I may choose to spend money on to embelish the gaming experience. On that topic, I hope your fans have made a sufficient clamour to sway you on the topic of metal characters. Anyway, I believe you have demonstrated a great way to negotiate the dangers of "over production".
The problem with this approach, in my opinion, is doubling up on components... you end up with the base components *and* the higher quality components.
This approach, while nice, does add a premium to the cost of the improved materials. It may only cost an extra $15 to include the realistic components in the game from the start.. but when you source them and give them their own UPC, packaging, and distribution, now they're $35 for the same things.
@@evanfulks Fair point. Not a perfect solution. Still nice to jave those options. I wouldn't know how much effort goes into publishing a single version, but I imagine a parallel "deluxe" version release isn't always workable either.
@@joegarvin2589 I think we can definitely agree that giving the customer some choice is good and enables different audiences to enjoy the game. The one thing that I'm glad Jamey doesn't do (and that I really don't like) is solving it with Kickstarter and Kickstarter exclusives.
Thanks J. This topic hit home for me. The game I am creating has 1-6 players and each player has a figurine to go with it's character stat sheet. So some figurines wont be used if less than 6 people are playing. However, the game would not be what it is without those figurines available when the time comes to use them.
In my experience, "overproduced" is a code word for something else that is out of balance, be it poor game mechanics or price point. We do want the best production as long as the game play and price point warrant it.
A counter example is AuZtralia, from one of my favorite designers and publishers. I use this particular game because I love it to death :-) But it is terribly "underproduced", in my opinion. The game play is at least as good as Martin Wallace's other train games (Steam for example). But it is crying desperately for some miniatures. I'd happily pay another $20 or $30 for a few minis - it is that good of a game. In the end, I'm happy I have the game but every time it hits the table, I see what it could have been.
That's a good point, Bob--it goes both ways. That's why I would prefer for people to encourage publishers to make nicer things instead of things that are less nice. :)
Bob Netherton absolutely agree. It’s the depth and richness of gameplay balanced against the quality of components.
Interesting to hear your perspective. Personally, I think it makes sense to consider a game overproduced in some cases, and that overproducing a game is something to be avoided. It is nice if a game looks good, but as with everything, I think striking a balance is key, and exaggerating feels wasteful.
Overproducing a game seems to promote materialism and a shallow focus on appearance. Games that are considered overproduced are very often Kickstarter games, where the inclusion of lots of giant miniatures or 'shiny' components is sometimes suspected to be meant to lure people in by distracting from the actual gameplay, which may be merely average. Sometimes, a game that would have been perfectly fine without miniatures, includes miniatures, which don't even fit the gameplay well, may even be too big for the board/cards and block the view of other
elements, etc. That is a clear example of overproduction, in my opinion: too much production for the game's own good.
It is also about the fact that people tend to dislike spending extravagants amount of money or being encouraged to do so. Even if board gaming is a hobby and expenses on board games are already luxury expenses, it just feels immodest to spend in some cases hundreds of dollars on huge pieces of plastic (that also take a lot of resources to produce, are heavy to take with you, and take up a lot of shelf space) that you will barely use, when you could have had a perfectly fine gaming experience while saving that money (saving is prudent and good) or spending it on other games or more useful things.
I agree 1000%. Tabletop games should be beautiful, stirring to behold, and tangibly gratifying experiences. The visceral/emotional aspect is a big part of the experience for me.
When you were talking about the game with an overproduced component that is preventing you from buying it I only thought about "Gizmos". I have exactly the same feeling about the dispenser.
I understand that it would be a production nightmare, but I would love to see more with and without versions of board games. Whether it be with or without minis or upgraded parts, offering a deluxe or maybe an upgrade pack would let the consumer decide what they wanted.
That's an interesting request, and it's certainly something we've considered. The problem that can arise is confusion: If you see a reviewer talking about a game, and then the copy you open has very different components, you may be disappointed in that experience.
It also might raise the cost for those "with" elements. So, while it might lower the price for those players who do not want them, it would also raise it for those who do (compared to what it would be otherwise). It also would be key for those "with" versions to be as easily available so they don't become something like a Kickstarter exclusive, or limited edition thing, which would again raise the cost.
I’m an avid gamer and interested in game production. Please continue to make these videos they are extremely insightful.
I've thought about this question for Santorini. That's a game where the components are unnecessary for the gameplay, but actually add so much value to the experience. Imagine the same game with discs!
But the game is still just $20. Now imagine the components being hand made out of wood with integrated LED lights. Now it's $100 and overproduced.
Jamey, I really appreciate your videos because you think deeply about everything. I think one of the critical distinctions here is “over-produced” versus “passion project”. What I mean is this: some designers may have one design that is so meaningful to THEM that they are willing to go all out. My example here is Mechs versus Minions. I really enjoy the game but it really could be played with small unpainted mechs and cubes for minions. Instead they put something like 50 minion sculpts in the box - each in an individual space in a tray, not in a bag!! I think we need to ask ourselves - what is it that the designer may get out of this seemingly overproduced component, and can I look at it from their perspective? Thanks!
Oof. Something I've thought about a bit lately. Grimm Forest is one that jumps immediately to mind and I feel it falls into that category of "too expensive for what it provides", so I will not purchase it but I can't fault it because it may be THE family game someone wants and it'll be a knockout.
Since you mentioned Vindication I will just add that it bugged me in certain ways. I was a backer, but the monuments were first proposed as more abstract monolithic pieces that I felt fit the vibe of the game better. I was not happy with the the scale or the sculpts of the final monuments. They also promised Scythe-like coins, but the quality of the final metal was lacking and it is very difficult to distinguish between different colors and finishes. It is a beautiful game in all other regards, they just had a couple unfortunate misses.
Back to Druid City Games, after the criticism many directed towards Grimm Forest, I assumed they would be more thoughtful for their Tidal Blades campaign. I was sorely disappointed. This was the game I decided I would not support the KS because of egregious over-production. I have the means to buy premium games and love upgraded components, but the dice tray is not at all desirable to me and the fact that it would make the box roughly 50% larger was a complete turn off. I hope to pick up a retail copy and would consider buying upgraded components, but asking customers to sacrifice that much extra shelf space (which is increasingly valuable) for a completely unnecessary trinket that feels like it was included for the sake of being extravagant is frustrating.
Finally, I just want to say that I often think of Stonemaier as a company that seems to be extremely thoughtful about what is included in every game, from components and materials to box size and inserts. Thanks, Jamey!
You could of bought the Standee version of Tidal Blades, course it will end up at retail so you didn't miss out.
I think this is an interesting thought in regards to Wingspan, which I think is a perfect balance of production interests. The Dice Tower that’s included is a great addition, though not strictly speaking necessary, I definitely love having it out during my playthroughs because it’s used constantly and is thematic, even if it raises the price of the game.
I was super surprised when members of the Wingspan group showed off that they were upgrading the turn cubes, or were even complaining that they weren’t already upgraded, because to me that would be a perfect example of overproduction. Why make upgrades for those cubes if it will raise the price of every copy, when people can buy their own upgrades.
Wondered how you balance that constant pressure between offering high quality beautiful pieces and managing costs, and this video offered a great explanation.
Thanks Matthew! Wingspan is definitely a game where I had to very closely think about the final price as it compared to the cost of the components. I wanted to offer something that feels premium in the right ways.
@@jameystegmaier Will there be a wooden version of the bird feeder dice tower? That would be great!
@@Luke_L Tower Rex, the company that designed the dice tower, is working on a wooden version to put on their Etsy store.
@@jameystegmaier Great, thx!
This conversation makes me think of an experience I had recently where I used the term over produced as a positive descriptor, and I dont say this to pander, but it was while playing Wingspan. I think that game is overproduced in the best way possible. The components are gorgeous, it looks so great on the table and every time I have played it in the past month or so I have had people walking by stop and ask me about the game. Mechanically there is no need for the bird feeder dice tower, or for the eggs to be the nice, tactile chunky pieces they are. You did not have to include a tray for the card market, and definitely did not need to add this gorgeous finish to the rulebook. But every one of those things have improved my experience with the game in subtle ways and in my opinion did not unreasonably raise the price point. I think the cost is dead on with the value of the game play and I really hope this is a trend other producers pick up on.
Thanks Joshua! I think the word normally has negative connotations, but I appreciate you using it in a positive way.
I played Vital Lacerda's The Gallerist over the weekend, a game which has been called "overproduced". The production quality was very appropriate for the theme, and was worth every penny. For a board game about art it only added to the asthetic and made my gamming experience that much more enjoyable. Stunning table presence.
Great video. It's okay to put more into the production of components if it really feels like it adds something to the game. I can't imagine playing Splendor with just some cardboard tokens to represent what are supposed to be the valuable gems I'm taking to the markets to sell to noblemen. It's that heft of those components that really makes me treasure having them in my possession during the game.
Dunno if you still read this, Jamey. But in my opinion, this topic really ties into what you expect from a game and, in a sense, what IS the game to you.
I have been a board game lover for pretty much all of my life (our parents used to play stuff like Catan, Mississippi Queen and Tikal with us when I was like 6 years old), and for me, it never was and still is not about the components, it is about the decisions you make and storytelling a game provides. The same is true for video games btw.; I can still play games like the first Prince of Persia, because I don't mind graphics.
As you already said, there are board gamers for which the budget is very limited, and so it was to me for a long time. I loved to play the StarCraft board game, but I could not even afford it when it was still in circulation. When all the modern miniature games popped up (CoolMiniOrNot etc.) my friends bought all these games I could not. For the most part I did not really care, but there are beautiful games in there from the point of mechanics, gameplay and balance, and I would have loved to own a version of them without miniatures, but with cardboard tokens or wooden meeples. But I could not play these game systems outside of my group, because I could not afford to pay 70$+ for a game. I also did not WANT to pay much for a game just for its components. To me, the perfect components of a board game are beautifully illustrated, two-layer cardboard and wood. I own Spirits of the Rice Paddy, and that game to me is the pinnacle in components. Archipelago is another example of a very, very beautiful game to me that conveys everything it wants to say with its wood and cardboard components. Or Leaving Earth - just gorgeous. Since I have a bigger budget I actually refrained from buying games with metal coins or plastic minis because I don't like them. So if you think you make Scythe better with plastic mechs, that may be true to you and the majority of gamers, but certainly not to me. If your point for painted minis is that they make Tapestry a better game, well, sadly not to me. That does not mean I will not buy it, but it makes a game I'd like to buy more expensive to me than necessary, and no one wants to pay more than the product needs in her/his eyes. You likely do not want to buy a double-the-price toaster with gold foil inlay when all you want to pay for is a machine to make some good toast.
In a perfect world game designers would have the capability to produce games with all kinds of component upgrade levels, but sadly, this is the real world, and numbers in a print run matter, so I will never get my wood-and-cardboard material for a game you designed around precoloured minis and metal coins. In a sense, to me your gorgeous creation is overproduced. Not because you have components that rarely see the table, but because with less money you could have produced a game that I, personally, would like more aesthetically.
The question is whether the over-the-top component adds to the game experience. An example might be Everdell's tree, which in theory looks awesome, but has been accused of getting in the way.
I've just finished a playthrough of Battle For Greyport, which I'd say is possibly overproduced because (as an example) there are 3 separate sets of tokens for tracking damage. Really, they could do all of that with 1 set of tokens and everything would have been just fine.
John: That's a really interesting point about components that get in the way of gameplay instead of enhancing it.
As an aspiring designer, I got caught up in over-producing my simple card game. I kept adding mechanisms & components like a mad scientist. Coins, custom dice, tokens- whatever fit the theme, I threw it in. I finally realized that I had almost no idea what I was doing, so I went back to the drawing board. It's now a simple 54 card, two player game ...and way better now (more play-testing is needed of course).
I really do love the gorgeous components in those big box games! I hope to publish my big board game someday. It will be all the things I want in a game with a few unique components that don't quite go over-the-top. I'll call it "perfectly produced"! -D.D. O'Brien
Yeah, great point, but start small, build up and get the audience to make bigger games!
That's my plan anyhow.
I'm reminded of Tim Rogers's Videoball. There's a great video on TH-cam ("The 2017 Failure Workshop" posted by GDC) where he details the production, and how he kept adding stuff to make the game as good as possible, ultimately realising he should have kept the game simple.
I love this conversation. It's a difficult subject to broach but you did it quite well. I do appreciate elegant pieces and quality conponents. Interestingly I think scythe is gorgeous and know for quality components and art, but I don't think it's been mentioned regularly as over produced. I absolutely love metal coins, but I also like standees with artwork over minis in MOST cases. Not all cases, but most. Gorgeous dice can go a long way and indented player boards as well.
You didn't need the glass drops for viticulture, but man are they amazing!
Project elite is one of the few games I think needs big chunky minis because you grab them fast and toss them off the board...you can't have tender standees there...but many games have minis for almost no reason and the price increase versus standees is astronomical. I can't own many CMON games or kickstand a lot of games because of the over produced nature...
Thanks Jamey, for using (and thereby lending me) the term "table presence"! To me, a beautiful table presence improves a board or card game many notches. I think that is why I fell for chess as a kid. Table presence definitely pushed me into loving Magic the Gathering, where every player assembles his/her own work of art and integrates it with that of his/her opponent. It is also about the tactile experience. Some more irresistable games: The Grizzled, Mechs vs Minions, Hive, Love Letter (the AEG edition in a pouch), the Train Car cards of Ticket to Ride Märklin. The only one among these that comes close to overproduced would be Mechs vs Minions. Some of them are to the contrary pretty minimalistic. I can think of three good reasons to incorrectly call a game out as overproduced: Expensive, voluminous, poor mechanics.
I have no problem paying a premium for better graphic design, illustration, a better rule book, and more development time, and I would rather have a nice player aid than a miniature. I also take box size into account. I understand that publishers have to consider shelf presence, but for me personally, I want my boxes as compact as possible, especially for what the game is. A game like Photosynthesis takes up as much shelf space as Gaia Project, Kanban, and The Great Zimbabwe combined.
Vindication, you're a bit mistaken, you actually only use one of those miniatures ever in the game. And it's an optional game variant. The other 5 or 6 miniatures in there are just table art, they represent a guild and never enter the board. What's worse is that the retail version at around up bucks doesn't have these, but still had the massive box and half empty insert.
I paid 80 for without minis and the store sold with for 100. The expansion may have use for the minis sp ive backed the expansion and added the minos to my pledge. In vindications case ive enjoyed the game so much im happy to add the minis to my game. However i own grim forest because my wife saw it at the store and wanted it. Very disapointed with jow overproduced that game is. Game is too basic ro merit the added cost and storage space it takes up. The production of grim forest is why we bought it and its why i want to getrid of it.
Thank you for another excellent video. I think component quality and visual presence on the table ("look and feel") are just as important as the game mechanics. When both of these meet and you throw in an interesting theme we get games like Scythe, my favorite game of all time. And getting these upgraded deluxe components piece by piece (only missing the metal mechs now) has really been a great experience itself.
Vindication is something I'm really looking forward to, did you have the time to play it already? Have a great week!
Really enjoy your videos because I think you always get your point(s) across really well.
For me personally, I'm the type of gamer who always prefers the upgraded components. I think it helps bring out the theme a little more, it helps me get more immersed into the game, it gives a better table presence, they're nicer to look at and usually nicer to handle. I love metal coins, I love realistic resources, etc. So I know for me personally, I would always prefer to pay extra to get those nice components right in the core game. I dropped $189 on Nemesis to get the kickstarter version with the extra minis, slime tokens, upgraded components etc. Last year I paid $105 to get the KS version of Empires of the Void II instead of dropping $50 for the retail version because I wanted the metal coins, the plastic mini, and the upgraded components.
I definitely understand what you're saying about the price tag though, and I think a good example is probably Scythe. Everything you need to play the game came right in the box. But I know for me personally, I ordered Scythe and the metal coins, as soon as I got the game I opened it, looked at everything, and when I saw the wooden cube-like resources, I knew I didn't want to play until I bought the realistic resource upgrades. I know this is not how everyone else would feel, and I only made this decision because I knew there was a realistic resource upgrade, but I also knew that for me the realistic resources would help immerse me in the game more and I would enjoy playing with them over the wooden pieces. I got Gloomhaven for Christmas this year, but I still haven't played it. I won't play it until I get an organizer and the realistic resource upgrades.
On the other hand, I definitely get the idea of how something can feel "overproduced" based off what the game offers. A good example that came to mind is Carcassonne, I don't need unique fully painted minis to play Carcassonne, the wooden meeples for that game is fine. I will say for me personally though, I do wish that more games that had coins came with metal coins in the box. I hate when I find out a game has a metal coin or realistic resource upgrade but I either can't find them, or the only place I can find them is on ebay for twice the price of the base game.
The last thing that came to mind is this is a good example of why I don't care as much as some other reviewers do about repeated themes. The reason for that is, now that I have Nemesis and some really great looking alien minis, if another game about aliens came out but had cubes in the box to represent them, I could always grab my Nemesis minis and use them in the game instead. But if the game being put out has a pretty unique theme, I'd prefer getting good components to represent it. Again, it would just help to immerse me in the theme of it.
I think playtime and re-playability are big equalizers for so called "over produced" games. Just like video games, I have no problem paying more money for a game that will provide hundreds of hours of play time over many, many play sessions compared to a game that has very little play time or re-playability. I don't care how amazing the minis or other components are, if it only makes it to the table and provides little fun once or twice a year it's not worth as much to me compared to a less expensive game with standees and cubes that I really enjoy and will play once a month or more. ...But if that "over produced" game gets to the table often and provides hours of entertainment it's well worth the cost every time.
I appreciate when publishers offer a retail and a deluxe version, giving the customer the choice if there is to be a significant difference in price.
Very well stated on all points here. I love big beautiful games with stunning table presence. But production level/quality/style should compliment the game style, mechanics, and target audience. One of the few recent examples of overproduction that I actually agree with is Everdell. It's super cool looking and immediately grabbed my attention, but the problem is that it prioritizes aesthetic over function with the tree component blocking off an entire side of the board. If it somehow negatively effects the actual playability of the game, or if it causes the price to be highly disproportionate to the gaming experience itself, then overproduction might be worth addressing. Otherwise I'm all for designers and publishers continually raising the bar on production values.
Would love to know your thoughts on one game I feel is over produced: Oceanos. The subs are awesome the first time but it's a simple collection game and it's one of the few games I won't get out because I don't want to deal with sorting them all out for the experience you get.
It's been a while since I played it, and I remember it being mostly cardboard (which is not expensive to make). Is it the player mats that you didn't like?
@@jameystegmaier it's all cardboard, which doesn't scream overproduction at all. But as you upgrade, you swap in new sub pieces you sort through the pile, find the New piece, etc... so you have at least twice the table space taken up of the player board. And all for what light collection game that could have accomplished with a simple player board and some cubes.
@@wademonnig3556 Ah, I can see how that would be cumbersome.
Table presence is certainly important in so many ways - desirability of getting it to the table, support of the arts, and purchasing interest to name a few. Unfortunately, games feel like they're pricing themselves away from people who would like to purchase the game, but can't afford it due to unnecessary (not necessary for gameplay) upgrades. In particular, the drive to minis that remain grey & unpainted can actually detract from table presence while driving up cost.
I agree that an over-produced game is one where the perceived value is less than it's cost. As you mentioned, an example is a particular miniature not used fully. Or as someone else mentioned, where a large miniature doesn't have a function that is appropriate for it's size. However, there is another side to this that relates to how often a particular game is being played. If a game is played often, the perceived value likely increases. I don't mind paying more for deluxe items in a game I'm going to play often. I'll buy or pay extra for items (metal coins, fancy components, and inserts) when a game is being played more than a few times. As a matter of fact, that adds to the experience, knowing that you got the extra stuff for a game that you and you group like a lot. For example, we purchased the metal Viticulture coins which add to the game experience, and for us, it was equivalent to buying an expansion of sorts. Unfortunately, sometimes those extra items are not readily available after the game has been out for awhile, especially here in Canada. It would be nice if there were more deluxe versions of games, so that if you have a pretty good idea you're going to like a game, you can buy the deluxe version, otherwise buy the regular version.
Oh, and to add to the comment about Scythe standee mechs... no please! I would rather see under-size minis than standees anytime.
The wooden dinosaur "meeple" in Evolution.
It is HUGE and it's only used as a first player marker, though it's not hard to figure out who's first player at any given moment.
It's good for putting next to the watering hole and look nice and not much else I think.
Could've been a cardboard standee like Stone Age. That may knock the cost down a few pegs. And the physical weight and increase portability.
I'm not gonna flag any publisher or creator for making a game with expensive beautiful components. My perspective about a game is it's a luxury item and an art piece. It gives jobs to illustrators and sculptors, etc. I cannot say to an artist, don't produce an artwork that I cannot afford, cheapen your materials and reduce your quality of work. Same with board games. That being said, I think the publisher is still responsible with trying to manage and balance the cost of their game to match the projected spend of their target audience.
But unlike art, board games are still games. You end up playing it, I'm not gonna pay a hefty price just because it looks good. I don't care how goodlooking the game if it's above the budget for what it brings to the table, I won't buy it. Of course different people may be willing to offer a larger price and there is no denying that a pleasant looking game adds to the fun factor.
I don't see games as a luxury item, I see board games as games I want to enjoy. Miniatures are fun to have, but I would be willing to forego them for standees (ugh) if it makes the game more affordable.
Perfectly said. I think pricing is the important part. Gimm Forest being a great example. It was a little pricer than some games but absolutely beautiful and totally worth it. If they had charged $120 for it I would have said it was overPRICED not overPRODUCED. Games should strive for highest quality of their components and artwork etc while not inflating price needlessly and blaming it on quality.
This makes a lot of since, though i think it can also come down to the feeling the component gives you when its used. For example, In the Grimm Forest, as you mentioned, the Big Bad Wolf is seldom used, if at all. However, when your the person that gets to play that card, or the recipient of that card, the feeling of placing that miniature on the location is extremely satisfying. I dont think you would get the same feel if it were, say a card, or cardboard token. There is something satisfying about slamming down that mini on top of your friends locations.
This is something I have seen taken into account (be it conciously or not) in Stonemaier's Games. The feeling of dropping the wooden food dice in the bird feeder, is deeply satisfying, or as in MvM, moving giant robots around seemingly aimlessly, smashing all of the minions in your path.
Often times when a game is called overproduced I think gamers really mean that they wish the money was spent elsewhere. Like vindication, many people wish the character standees were miniatures instead of those tokens that don’t get used often. Often times ks backers wish the publisher favored more gameplay content over deluxe component upgrades. One place I’ve never heard complaints about overproducing is art. So having as much good and unique art as you can afford seems like one of the safer investments. It’s definitely been a big draw for Wingspan.
"They wish the money was spent elsewhere." Well said! I like that.
I remember hitting that with an old hobby game called Dragon Strike, the 1992 1 vs all Dungeon Crawl game where one player is a GM. It had some pretty good minis for 1992 and good cardboard punchouts...but the map, cards, and character sheets left a lot to be desired, as well as some scaling is just off for the minis. Maps have inconsistant square sizes where some square bases of the minis encroach over lines (if the mini didn't have limbs that encroach into other squares in the first place, like the Dragon and Gargoyles. A special shout out goes to the troll mini where it took up 2 squares with its base...but was called a single square mini in the (player's) rule book...whoops) while all of the cards and character sheets were printed on Photo Paper. While it's not as big of a problem with the character sheets, the card backs were the photo side, so the cards are easy to mark from regular shuffling. The bases for the punch out doors worked well. The bases to stand up the character sheets...not so much. The game is skewed towards the GM winning, as there's not enough time for the players to do the objectives before the dragon appears, and most of the time the dragon either spawns in the same room as a major objective or in the path of the heroes escaping the map. And, of course the dragon is the most OP monster in the game (3 attacks per activation if within melee range, has a special ranged attack, highest speed in the game, Its defense means that most characters can't SCRATCH it). It was a mess, to say the least, even if you ignore the components.
I don't think I've ever used the term "over-produced", but I do classify games as "garish" and "lavish", both being in an "over-produced" category. Some games benefit from "extras", while others are doing it either as a vanity project or cash grab.
I think you definitely hit the primary element for this complaint (and what I would classify as garish), as including components that have little to no use in a game. Kind of like food, too much of a good thing can spoil the experience. I love ginger, but if you go ham on it and put a whole root of ginger in the stir fry, it makes the dish inedible.
There is a much bigger equation here as well. For me, I prefer highly portable games, so games with "golden cocoon" boxes really turn me off. IMHO, your game should fit perfectly in the box, with perhaps space for a potential expansion. I find your episode on "will the expansion fit in the box" intriguing based on this idea. I really like how you solved the problem with Scythe by offering the "one box to contain them all." I think, relative to your discussion, the key point here is that you made it optional. A person could CHOOSE to purchase it, but is not required to. But I also LOVE lavish games, I remember fondly getting my first copy of Space Alert with glass bits. I paid alot more for it, but having glass components made it feel special. I also love translucent dice. When used in context, these can be highly thematic and add to the flavor of a game without overpowering it.
But I think you need to step back and realize one of the truisms in sales; "You can't please all the people all the time." I love the "tiny epic" series of games. I personally think iteMeeples are garish, though. There are people that think iteMeeples are highly innovative. I don't use them in my games and while I personally would prefer not to have had those components, I think it was a useful add since there is a large cross-section who do enjoy it.
TLDR; Make a great product, keep it reasonably affordable and listen to the MAJORITY opinion and things will work out.
just an addendum, I think my comment on the glass bits highlighted a point for me. More games are considered over-produced now because it is no longer special, but has become the norm. I think if every other game didn't try to outdo each other on the amount of metal or plastic in the box, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I do understand and certainly agree with your point of view. You should also consider what happens to the price when a game is sold in another country.
I'll give you my example. Rising Sun is absolutely awesome and beautiful but its so ridiculously expensive here in Brazil (the game is worth HALF of a minimum wage salary) that i cant hold myself from thinking there should be at least a cheaper/simpler version where all those cool minis are simple tolkens so more people can actually buy and play the game
An important factor I don’t think you touch on is that sometimes big fancy pieces can be cumbersome in ways that hurts the game. I haven’t played it, but I’m told the otherwise gorgeous Everdell tree can make the board hard for some players to see. And I’ve called the structures in Viticulture overproduced, because figuring out which wooden piece is the cottage or a cellar you just built can add more annoyance than the benefit the individual pieces bring to the (great) game.
As another viewpoint--although I appreciate good table presence in games, my problem with some games, especially with miniatures, is the size of the box and storage. I live in a small apartment and have very limited space for game storage. I would often prefer other components to large miniatures for this reason since large boxes sometimes take the place of 2-3 other games I could have instead. In addition, it makes it much harder for me to travel with games to play with friends, especially when I go home across states for holidays, when games are large and heavy.
The best example for this is Dice Throne. I love the look and storage of the game as many have praised. However, as a game that basically consists of some decks of cards and dice, I would have definitely sacrificed the custom boxes made for sleeved cards for a much more compact box. Especially now that there are multiple sets, each in huge boxes, it means I will rarely if ever take this with me to game night and makes it much more likely I may have to sell it eventually to make space for other games since the season 2 box is the size of about three Ticket to Ride size boxes.
It's the giant Cthulhu "miniature" in CMON's "Death May Die," isn't it?
@B Palmer It is only kind of optional. One does not need it for the base game, but the maxiture is necessary for the special scenario that turns the game from a board game to a skirmish wargame.
@@PrinceGastronome that's my suspicion as well.
Maybe kingdom death monster. There is one enormous miniature which probably costs $100 by itself. The game overall is $400. A price point he lets slip out later in the video.
I agree with the point of developers and publishers striving to release games with a nice table presence, which is why I don't normally use the term but I've heard it and sometimes I will agree, like in the case of "Council of four", a game that I own and like, but it rarely bothers me, as long as it doesn't get in the way of gameplay.
I hope publishers selling or offering print and play files. That way anyone who considers something overproduced can make their own copy their own specs. I still buy games because it takes a long time to hand craft one yourself. Print and plays are also nice to have though to replace components
Love me some high production value. My only issue is when it borders on ridiculousness- like that giant Cthulu statue (can't really call it a mini).
Edge of Darkness ?
Some things that some might consider over produced I wish were in more games, incidentally - Dice per player in games that have a lot of die rolling, rather than just e.g. 2 dice if the most that's going to be rolled at once is two (Still, there are some companies that don't always ), pencils in games with scorepads/roll and writes/word games where you write your words down. Just minor convenience things that speed the game up slightly or mean I'm less likely to need to bring something into the game from outside of it.
Chucking a nuclear bomb at a derelict building doesn't make you a demolition expert; placing the exact amount of explosives required to make the building collapse gracefully does. Chucking more money at the production of a game does not make you a design master; using the exact amount of money required to achieve the desired atmosphere and gameplay functionality does. More luxurious components ≠ better components.
Great video and I mostly agree with overproduced as you define it. This video brought to you buy Purina "Tidy Cats". Jamey says, "I can barely smell it!"
Ha, exactly what I thought. :D
Next time you post a negative comment, use correct term (by instead of buy).
Uh... It was a joke, not a negative comment. I doubt Jamie had his feelings hurt.
Just wanted to say, now that I've opened our copy of Tapestry: WOW! Not over produced! Amazing!
I've seen this video a couple of times now, and i don't think i know which is that one game Jamey thinks is overproduced... Anyone have ideas?
Agree with your points in many regards Jamey. I enjoy a beautifully produced game more even if I wasn't the biggest fan of the gameplay. I can appreciate the extra effort taken by the publisher for putting in the effort to wow me. But, I definitely wouldn't want them to do it at the expense of good gameplay.
Also, I think there's a fine balance in there of how often the pieces (that were probably incredibly expensive to produce) are used in the game. It does ratchet up the price and sometimes at the detriment of the sales of the game. But at the same time, I have a harder time getting into games that don't have great components to go along with it.
I will say that the theme in Viticulture isn't necessarily the biggest draw for me, but my wife (who is from Italy) wanted to try the game so I sat down to play with her. Not only did the mechanics draw me in from the start but the component quality was so great that it's currently sitting on my top 10 games of all time video from last year. I actually bought the metal coins for that game because I've enjoyed it so much and I wanted to make my copy feel more complete. There's something to be said for upgrading your favorite games.
It's funny you brought up the Grimm Forest. We are getting ready to release our own review on it and I (Kas) actually believe that the game's table presence is very well done. It's such a simple one to get into (mechanically speaking) that the production quality helps to keep me even more interested in it.
Thanks for continuing to do interesting videos like this. They keep me thinking!
I haven't thought too much about over-produced games. I'm interested in the value for the cost of the production.
For me the term „overproduced“ stands mostly for investing production ressources in the false spots. I see publishers intend to put more and more stuff into the box, trying to add value by quantity. Sadly the quality of the contend or components stays mediocre.
So my wish would be that publishers improve the quality of the core, when they have the ressources to do that, before adding extras.
First, thanks for the videos! "Over produced" is an odd phrase because I feel like the designer/company gets to choose and I'm typically cool with that. Mezo is a game that I backed because I dig the designer's previous games. The four foot tall minis didn't 8nfluence my decision to buy but...I went all in. Does Mezo need all that? Don't know but I can't wait to see if production & game play matches the components! Cheapass was a company that I bought many games from back when they came in envelopes and that was also fun.
I totally LOVE games with high quality materials, such as miniatures and great ressources for example. Like you said- my eyes are playing the game, too. My favorite games (like Trickerion and Scythe) are my favorites because of their beauty and deep theme- not so much because their mechanics. I want to feel the game while playing it. That is very important for me and much much easier with great components you want to stare at all the time. :)
The higher money cost is not that important for me. Not because I have to much money ;), but because I´m selecting my board games to purchase rarely. We are board gamers and have about 100-120 games in our collection. My husband and I cannot play more games in a year. That is the amount we can afford our time in. I buy maybe all 2 to 3 months a new board game. And when new games are coming in, other games who weren´t played in a long time are going. Money is important, if you want to buy 50 new publications in Essen. Rewiever do that. But I think a lot of board gamer like me do not.
Last to say: The only game I could name in the term of "over-producing" may be Tainted Grail. I still hesitate to paint all the miniatures, cause they are (like you said) only used so rarely in the game... and I wonder wheter the time will pay off by painting them. And when I don´t want to paint a miniature (a must have to me ^^, I don´t like that plasticgrey) THEN it might be over-produced.... Although- to be fair- it was my own choice to back the miniatures 😄.
But that is the only example I was sad because of game components yet. But only, because I hoped, they would be on the table more often.
I think this is a fair assessment and how I think of overproduced. Maybe a idea would be to offer upgrade components for those who want them?
High quality components are not "over produced" for me. Miniatures are. I am never going to paint a mini. I hate doing it. Painting is one of the reasons I do not play table top war games anymore. I would rather have nice standees or really, painted meeples like Root. To me that is still distinguishing on the board, but not plastic, which is not fantastic. My only real exception to plastic would be in the form of Game Trayz, which are a great "over production" to add to a game. Great storage solutions are worth their weight in gold. Especially if it makes vertical storage easier without resorting to baggies.
I actually think that you did a great job with the Rise of Fenris, without spoiling too much I'm specifically talking about reusing the same components in a different way.
Rise of Fenris is an amazing expansion and wonderfully done.
It's odd. It's not that you're saying anything wrong, but I have so many good memories of, say, Cheapass and Steve Jackson. Indeed, my very best RPG memories involve a fistful of dice and a ringbinder, and often no published material of any kind (of course it takes a special crowd to truly wing everything). From that perspective, it sometimes seems like *everything* is overproduced. Or in slightly more produced things, Talon could have had plastic spaceships and ship systems charts, but the simple dry-erase finished tokens work so much better.
Don't get me wrong, I love what you did with Scythe and I agree with someone below about how magical the physical redesign of Santorini 2016 somehow is. Components *are* important.
So then there're the old Seventh Seal editions of Axiom, the angular ones. It's a pure abstract, I know, but could anything be more beautiful? That one is exactly right :).
Evidently I don't have a point here, other than that it's possible-and wonderful-to do it all inside your head, but it's oh so amazing when the physical design comes together as well.
I was thinking along the same lines when I listened to Jamey. An argument could be made that as long as players can distinguish pieces, cards and parts of the board from each other enough to play the game, anything beyond that should be "overproducing" right? But the thing is the "artefact" aspect. I love this game so I want it to look great on the table and in my collection. I want it to look and feel like it does in my imagination when I play it, to some extent. And when I show the game to other people, I want them to feel what I feel when I play it, see what I see. And then tons of cubes just won't do it.
Is he talking about wingspan and the dice tower component?
Who is he? Me?
@@jameystegmaier a quick google search makes this conversation a little awkward...
To explain - when you mentioned a game having a component that is nice but not essentially necessary I thought of the reviews I've seen recently for Wingspan (which I definitely knew you made when I wrote that comment) which note it's high production value and all seem to rave about the included dice tower. I was trying to theorize as to what game you were talking about more than making a comment about Wingspan. I also see you have WS at $55 MSRP ( ebay disagrees) which is reasonable for any premium game. I haven't played WS but based on reviews it is a planned purchase when it once again becomes available.
I apologize for any offense.
@@bombconnery I think what I said in the video is that as a designer and publisher I would avoid extravagant components that are rarely used (like if they don't even appear in most sessions of the game). The dice tower in Wingspan is used constantly throughout every game. I'm very happy we included it--it has a great table presence and it didn't overinflate the price of the game.
@@jameystegmaier Wingspan is at the perfect level of component quality vs price IMO.
I think I know the exact game you are talking about and had the same reaction. From looking at the Kickstarter page I was surprised by the price. Yes the were a lot of pieces, but I wasn’t clear I would like the game that much. It would be a great deluxe copy if I already were able to play the game. But, was a bit much for a Kickstarter that while it looked attractive it didn’t have a “cool” factor. Once you know you love a game buying a extravagantly produced game is more tempting, but you want to make sure you’re going to like playing the game. So I didn’t bak this $99 Kickstarter, while Batman was based on the Conan gameplay, so it is proven and I has extravagant quality, so I was willing to spend several times that. Great thoughts and I hope that game that was on KS comes out so I can play it. The company has done great stuff, and I wish them all the best.
I wonder if they'll consider making two versions (retail and deluxe). While that isn't a model I pursue in the post-Kickstarter world, it seems to work pretty well on Kickstarter.
I think Vindication is an example of overproduction. For a game that is a very fun experience, the miniatures don’t add to the amazing theme of the game.
One thing Jamey didn’t touch on was how it affects weight and shipping. Be it from a online store or kickstarter, that can be an extra £10-20 ($15-30) based on weight in shipping alone.
Grimm's Forrest is our favorite game BECAUSE of its production! I wish more games to the time and care it does. And the compartments are BRILLIANT!!!
I'm not actually someone who uses that term that much, as I really appreciate high production and even love to bling out games myself be it for function, decor purposes or both. But I do think game weight and length factors highly into this. The more time you spend with a game, the more value and appreciation you are likely to put onto its production, same goes for the more you invest into the game be it with brainpower or thematic immersion. This makes you more forgiving about the price point in the first place, at least that's how I tend to feel. If a game is lighter and shorter, I am much more price sensitive, than if the game is longer and more complex.
In the case of Council of Four, I think the biggest reason people are calling that particular game overproduced has more to do with how CMONs version (complete colourful graphical overhaul and miniatures galore) compares in price to Cranio Creations original version (muted colours, simple artwork and wooden tokens). The CMON version is vastly superior in most ways, but at around twice the price of the original (at least that is the case where I live), it's harder to swallow.
Very interesting! I want a game to look good on my table. I also understand price point as I am on a fixed income. Thank you! I am looking forward to getting Wingspan it looks great and looks fun! I will enjoy pealing the shrink wrap off and opening the lid for the first time - that is exciting!
Isn't everyone on a fixed income other than salesmen who get paid commission? I hate this term. It implies that pensioners are living some hardship while the rest of us have wildly fluctuating incomes from pay check to pay check. Fixed income = getting paid without working until you die. The rest of us = maybe we get paid, maybe we get fired and lose our income entirely. I'll take a guaranteed pension over work for a paycheck any day of the week.
@@Steve-yd9ki Social Security does not necessarily get raises like people in the workforce might - that's all I meant. There is no way I will get a promotion anymore.
@@jkledis I've been in Europe too long. In European speak you're a "pensioner" which makes a lot more sense to me than "fixed income" which sort of implies everyone who isn't a pensioner has unlimited or variable income or something.
You've stated this very well. I'm always a bit baffled to see how negative people get tossing around "overproduced" comments about fantastic games. I *want* games on my table to look beautiful. While I want an enjoyable play experience, part of that (for me) is having a game that looks nice and feels nice. Hands down, my most played games are those that I enjoy looking at and interacting with. Even setup time doesn't feel like as much of a chore when handling nice components. I will happily pay $5-10 more MSRP to have thicker, linen cards and upgraded components as *appropriate* for the game. I'm becoming pickier about storage in games as well and always love to see well-organized games. (Wingspan's organization is great due to having a "map" of where everything goes!)
I can understand where some games may feel overproduced for reasons you said - if a component that isn't central to the game has really been splurged on, likely raising the cost of the game for no important reason. However, I see far more games that are underproduced than over. If it comes with cards or "boards" already warped it's really disappointing. If it comes with paper money instead of at least upgrading to cardboard, it's pretty sad. If resource cubes are painted plastic and the paint is chipping off during the first play, I'm not very happy. Poor component quality can make a great game seem like only a good game, for me, and it's sad to sometimes have to rate a game lower than I want just because the components make it less enjoyable.
I think setting an "average" quality standard and sticking to it is often fine. Cardboard punchouts of decent quality are fine for resources in most games. Linen cards should be standard. I don't mind using standees or meeples if it keeps the entry level cost of the game down either. Offering other upgrades such as wooden resources, metal coins, miniatures, etc. as additional purchase is a great way to keep the MSRP down while giving a game's fans a way to take their experience up a notch.
Beautiful and overproduced are not equivalent.
I’m ok with the term overproduced & I am a sucker for it. Here is my only question: is the game fun even without the bling. If it is, then bring on the awesome components, the metal coins, etc. I love every second of it.
I think it's as simple as "does the production match the value I get out of the game". The answer will be different for everyone, but as a publisher your goal is to find that sweet spot.
In this discussion you focused entirely on the components. Components aren't the only cost in making a game. If a game required a lot of non-component costs (specifically artwork, graphic design, design itself, story, among others) I'd imagine a publisher might decide to embellish (appropriately, in my opinion) some components they can get a decent margin on so consumers are more willing to spend the money. Whether we like it or not most consumers will not take the time to consider these costs that are invisible to them.
But like anything else there are exceptions. People pay a high price for Time Stories' expansions, relative to the cost of the components, because they appreciate the experience they get, and can imagine the effort that goes into making one (similar to a book or movie, for example). That would be tougher to justify for a game like No Thanks, which I would not pay $100 for a premium edition despite really loving that game. (I would say the same for CodeNames if it was released on tiles!)
I generally have to buy a game to play it, so, even with reviews, I am hesitant to spend more than $50-70 for something I or my spouse might not like. I love upscale components, but would only be willing to pay the extra $20-30 dollars on something that for sure will see a lot of repeat plays. It would be nice if some upgrades could be sold separately like the suits in Anachrony are. Driving up the base price point too much reduces accessibility of the game.
I really don't understand pricing vs components. I don't yet own Wingspan, but the price seems great for the way it looks. There are also great value games like a Quest for El Dorado (multiple boards) or Forbidden Desert (nice tiles, plastic airship). Some games amaze me for the price, and others are underwhelming.
My feelings are that a game is 'overproduced' if the extra bits of production gets in the way of the gameplay. (The most common form of that I see is via minis that unless painted are difficult to tell apart, though board art that makes the board harder to read can happen).
Better components enhance the gameplay experience, absolutely. Except for when they don't, and it's those moments - when a better component not only doesn't enhance the gameplay experience, but actively detracts from it by making the game harder to actually play, for example making it so that I can't easily tell my pieces from yours, or where yours are on the board - that I consider overproduced.
Maybe there's a better term for what I mean when I say overproduced, since in some cases higher levels of production would fix the issue (e.g. pre-painted minis), though I tend to specify what specific issue I'm having "This is overproduced - I can't easily tell where my opponent's pieces are on the board due to how detailed the board art is" I'd tend to say "too expensive for what the game offers for me" for what you're talking about.
For me over production is where an item, such as a player board, counter, or any part/component of a board game is obviously expensive to produce but is not either practical or clear. Some components are all style over actual function. I want beautiful games, I want game makers to take chances but function should always come first for me. I have a few games in mind here!
I don't like that word... I love pretty games. I find absolutely underproduced games though are almost all 'Ravensburger alea' games. Most are great games like Burgundy for instance. This is one of my favorites but it's just so ugly and the components are flimsy.
I feel like this might sound corny but if a game has your company's logo on it, I know it will hit my sweetspot. Wonderful components, great table presence, awesome gameplay and reasonably priced. You and your team are doing it right, all the way! Thank you Jamey, for being so humble and everything you contribute to the gaming community. (Is March here yet?? Waiting for wingspan!!!). Peace.
P.S.: have you read 'Iron Gold' yet? When will this be a game of yours?? ☺
There are few gamers in my group that sneer at so-called "overproduced" games and I find it really odd. I buy lots of expansions and I do create DIY or buy extra quality resources for my favourite games aswell, of which I have deluxe version aswell. I think Roxley's Brass: Birmingham is a great example of a well done, quality produced game. The original Brass is a sore to my eyes but the new one is amazing and part of the reason that I chose it as my GOTY 2018 was the look of the overall game and the quality of components.
Thanks for the video, Jamey. After watching it and considering the term "oveproduced", I don't see how it can possibly have any universal meaning that we will all agree on. It reminds me of the automobile industry.
Will a Jaguar get me from point A to point B? Of course. But so will a Corolla. If that is the only consideration, then the cheapest, sparest option in every area of our lives would be the obvious choice. I don't believe that we all feel that way, though.
Judging by the incredible success of many miniature-heavy games on Kickstarter, I can only conclude that a lot of people like minis! I personally do not find that they add a lot of value to a game, mainly because I'm not a miniature painter, and an unpainted miniature usually doesn't look all that nice. So I would rather have a wooden meeple or a cardboard standee than a miniature.
Does that mean the game with all the minis is overproduced? I don't think so; it simply isn't to my taste and doesn't cater to my skills and interests.
Your video also brought to mind your company's latest game, Wingspan, which I recently purchased and got to play. Could it have been made with punched cardboard instead of eggs? Of course. Could the dice have been plastic instead of wooden? Sure. Did we really need a dice tower to play the game? Of course not. Could the player boards have been half as thick? I'm sure that was possible. Would those changes have reduced the price? I'm not a manufacturer, but common sense tells me that some if not all of those alterations would have made the game cheaper.
Does that mean that Wingspan is overproduced? I don't think so. Each one of the things I mentioned above adds to my enjoyment of the game, and is thematic to boot!
When I think back on games I've played, I think it would be difficult to find one that couldn't have been made more cheaply. Even Monopoly. Do we really need metal tokens? Hardly. Plastic would do just fine.
So (if anyone is still reading my comment by this point ) I think labeling any game as "overproduced" is a slippery slope. The end result, which is the message I got from your video, is that could influence publishers to make games more and more cheaply, which wouldn't be a good thing for the industry in my opinion.
So please, Jamey, keep making beautiful games, and let's encourage everyone else to do the same!
Definitely interesting to hear your perspective (designer/publisher). I'd be surprised if the average gamer gets this detailed about why a game is "overproduced" (i.e. is a specific component worth the cost of the game?). For me, I'm a big fan of aesthetically pleasing games (e.g. nice components). However, I get a little irritated when designers/publishers try and sell games that look amazing but have broken mechanisms.