My Top 5 I-Cut-You-Choose Games
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ค. 2024
- Jamey discusses the I-cut-you-choose mechanism in detail, including his Top 5 favorite games in that category. He mentions Hanamikoji, New York Slice, 7 Wonders Duel, Castles of Mad King Ludwig, and Isle of Skye, among other games.
Played later: The Great Split, Sundae Split
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Keep up with the amazing videos. I enjoy the in depth design talks while sitting down with my ideas trying to think outside the box. 👍
Your design talk is always fascinating. Thanks for sharing! I think your idea at end of video with I cut you choose element would allow interesting decisions to be made.
Love your videos Jamey, great stuff.
So many fantastic games on this list! Thanks for the shoutout to New York Slice and Castles!
Thanks! I'll play any I-cut-you-choose you all make. :)
Onitama isn’t really “I cut, you choose” per se, but the card rotation mechanism is quite brilliant and it’s a very similar concept. It also has that nice flow that you mentioned at the end of the video. :)
Thanks for the video Jamey, these are pure gold. Maybe a way to improve Zooscape's stalemates (possibly in another game) is to further cut the already cut pile for the competing players, or have them play a classic I cut you choose round between themselves. Nested rounds of I cut you choose may be an interesting concept to explore, a bit like the 7 wonders duel flow.
Great choices and I always think it's such a clever mechanic
Awesome video. 2 of my favorite games are Isle of Skye and Castles of Mad Big Ludwig. However for me they are in reverse order as I am able to get Skye to the table more.
The lost expedition in its 1v1 version has some I-cut-you-choose element: both the players contribute to build two different path with cards, and at the end of the turn one player chooses one to follow, leaving the other to his opponent.
That's a really interesting twist on this mechanism!
The price and buy mechanism in Castles of Mad King Ludwig look great. I've not played it myself yet, but would love to. The whole idea of tile laying and the pricing just make for an interesting game in my mind.
Tussie Mussie, but it has hidden information when choosing (But it is gorgeous!).
Santorini has this with the power selection at the beginning. One player picks which powers are going to be used in a given game, and all other players choose from that set which one they want to play.
I have Isle of Skye, and just picked up New York Slice on Prime Day. It's an interesting mechanism that I do not have a lot of experience with, but I did not like it in Castles of Mad King Ludwig. Your concept on a different way to implement it is super interesting. You might play the cards into your personal tableau/market for a benefit, but others could buy them for the permanent ability, or an alternate reward. There are a lot of ways you can go with it. This may have obscured the I-cut-you-choose part of it, but opens you up to more freedom.
A month or so ago I heard of ‘you divide & I decide’ on reddit, something I never really implemented myself, but immediately I thought to myself, “damn, that sounds like an anime-tier kinda mind game,” so I quickly wrote down some ideas about it.
I LOVE this mechanism. It so reminds me of sharing candy bars with my brother decades ago.
Regarding the "last player not having a choice" issue you mentioned...
If that player did the splitting, then they already made their choice!
That's true, they made A choice, just not a choosing/buying choice. :)
Great explanation - thanks! I had forgotten about playing a game called "Piece of Cake" which is quite literally a "I cut you choose" that sounds very similar to New York Slice.
One of the other things I like about this mechanism is that it can encourage different strategies (and I think works well with games that facilitate that). So if the pricing or cutting is too punishing you can switch up your strategy to overcome that. I like "think on your feet" style choices in games 😁
I think New York Slice is a re implementation of Piece of Cake. I like the tactical element you described here!
I haven't heard anyone talk about this game but San Marco is a fantastic Mix of I-Cut-You-Choose and area control. It's sent in Venice so the way you need to build bridges to move your pieces to the various districts across the canals is interesting for strategy. A pretty simple game that plays best with four.
I really enjoyed Booty - to the clever go the spoils.
I just got a copy of New York Slice. It is very fun! I think it is the first of that mechanism that I played. 7 Wonders Duel seems more like drafting, but it kinda blurs the line between the two. Similarly, the draft in At The Gates of Loyang is really interesting in a cut-choose sort of way.
On second thought Coloretto probably fits the category. I've played that for years. Interestingly, everyone each turn gets to *choose* between "cutting" (set building, so kinda the opposite of cutting) and choosing.
Idea:
Every player has 3 cards or tiles (I'll just say cards from here on) in front of them for others to buy, priced by the owners. The money would go to the seller. If someone buys a card (or multiple are bought), that person would need to refill their market on their turn. If no cards are bought, they would have to either cut the cost of one card in half (rounded up) to entice buying or buy one of their own cards (money to the bank). Similar to Isle of Skye, they could then intentionally price items high to get the money if they know someone else would want it, or price it so that no one else wants it badly enough and enables the owner to purchase it. So similar mechanism with no rounds needed.
Swordcrafters has such a unique I cut you choose mechanic, and is super fun!
I agree!
I recently played Dynasties by Matthias Cramer - but man, cutting can cause quite a headache! :D
Alban Viard does I split you choose in a couple of his city building games like Card City XL and Town Center. Jolly & Roger is a two player I split you choose game boiled down to its purest form.
That's awesome! Thanks for the recommendations.
I second Jolly & Roger, Jamey. It is a fairly quick and simple 2 player game that distills the mechanism down to its purest form. It's basically the entire game.
Awesome! I'll try to find a copy.
The obvious way, for me, to put I Cut You Choose into a game without rounds is to make it part of another game, e.g. (off the top of my head so probably broken) an action in a wp game of 'deal five random cards and split them into two piles of cards' (the remaining pile going to the person who split) if no taker by the time the worker that split the piles leaves the space then that player gets to choose.
Something along the lines of "I choose, then I cut for the next one to choose" like, when you put your worker into a place you buy one of the cards there, then you discard all the others, draw new cards and price them for the next one to put a worker on this spot to choose could be cool.
Not sure if you know, NY Slice is a reprint of Piece o’ Cake which uses the exact cake analogy you used earlier.
I love animals on board. Potentially every player can cut a display of face up animals and one face down. When you cut you get a food token. If you choose to take a group of animals you have to pay food per animal in the group you choose. So as said before nearly every player will cut twice given them 2 food. You also keep this food from round to round. You get these animals to try make herds you want to get at least 3 of the same animal but if your stuff with 2 they are worth no points. I could go on but it'd great play it.
Thanks for the refresher, Daniel! I need to play it again.
I absolutely love Arboretum as a two-player. Excruciating hand-management decision making and I need to discard one card each turn that my opponent can pick up to their benefit. I need to pick up Hanamakoji as it sounds similar in that sense.
Hanamikoji does this well. Love that game
This is also my favorite mechanism! I see a lot of great suggestions in the comments (Shitenno, Jolly & Roger, Dynasties). Also check out Dragon Valley - it’s a tower defense euro with a heavy I-split-you-choose aspect.
Awesome! Thanks Ricky--I'll check it out.
Great video, Jamey! Love this mechanism, too! Make sure you check out Sundae Split. It plays quick, has Sushi-Go-esque set collection, and adds hidden information which always leads to 'a big reveal' each round. It's fantastic!
Thanks! I'll definitely check it out. :)
I handed my niece one peice of soft candy and told her to share it with my nephew with the I-cut-you-choose method and I made it as clear as possible that she splits and he chooses first. Guess how little she ended up with.
Great Video as usual, for a future topic - what are your thoughts on P500 type business model? If you haven't discussed it before, why would or wouldnt you use it, what do you think about it, and why isn't it used more often, other than GMT?
Thanks! I'll see if I have some thoughts about it to share on my crowdfunding/entrepreneurship blog.
I like this mechanism, too. Elizabeth Hargrave's Tussie-Mussie counts? It's one of my favourite short card games.
It does indeed count! :)
I recently picked up Shitenno for cheap. Its a cut choose game. Really painful having to make those offers. I enjoyed it
Thanks Justin! I'll try to find a copy.
I love Mad King Ludwig’s master builder role too, though I think the baiting of I bought tiles with coins dilutes this a bit. It creates less of a spread in cost.
I thought of four examples for you, some of which are like your 7 Wonders Duel example, maybe not pure exemplars:
1. Vault Wars. In Vault Wars, you have cards, some of which your opponents see, and some of which are hidden. As the auctioneer of those cards, you set an opening bid in coins. If no one is willing to pay that bid plus one coin, you get the cards yourself for the bid you set. However, if one player is willing, you, the auctioneer, are out of the running. The remaining players can keep going higher, and you, the auctioneer, get the coins of the winning bid. So there’s a King Ludwig type choice - if you really want the cards, you might place a high opening bid, which you have to be able to afford. Or you might play Psychology and price it low, hoping they think the cards are worthless. It’s a great mechanism - if only the package were less fiddly it would be a game I played more.
2. Jaipur. Play the app if you don’t have this, it is great. I thought of Jaipur because of your 7 Wonders Duel example. In this game, 5 cards are laid face up on the table. Most cards are either low value goods (leather, tea) or high value goods (gold, diamond). Normally you can only take one card. But there are also “camel” cards, which enable you on a future turn to take multiple goods at once. However, if you take a camel card you must take all of them. Imagine there are two teas and three camels. If you take the three camels, there are three empty holes in the card market. These are now filled by three new cards. By taking the three camels rather than one tea, your opponent will get first shot at three new cards, one of which is bound to be gold or diamond. The camels you have are useful, but is it worth it to give your opponent dibs on three cards? Often you will choose a worthless card to avoid giving your opponent such a sample.
3. Ex Libris. An interesting worker placement game if you haven’t tried it. In this game you build a hand of cards which are books you’ll try to place in your library (tableau). Over the course of the game, though, you may accumulate cards you’ll be unable to play or that would be inefficient to play. The worker placement slots are all different ways of cycling cards in and out of your hand or tableau, and some are almost mini games. In one, think it is called Rummage Sale, you choose any number of cards from your hand to reveal to your opponents. They then can chose to take any card, and continue to do so going clockwise, even taking several cards until everyone passes. You take the unclaimed cards back into your hand, but for every card taken, you get a benefit (I think it is drawing and playing cards for each taken). So you want to offer good cards to your opponents so it isn’t a wasted move, maybe cards they can use that you can’t, and if you do they get a benefit and you can very efficiently cycle a lot of dead weight out of your hand.
4. Ethnos. In Ethnos, you build up a hand of cards until you have sets of certain sizes. I’ve only played once, so I may be a little hazy on the rule, but when you play a set you have to discard either all of your other cards or a number equal to the set you played (if you can). The trick is, the discarded cards go into a face up tableau that other players can draw from (instead of taking a face down card). So you always must keep in mind the benefit of playing your set against the exposure of your remaining cards to your opponents to add to their hand.
Thanks Steven! Of those I've only played Ex Libris.
Oh, actually, I've played Jaipur once. :)
I love 7 Wonders Duel, but only with the Pantheons expansion -- because there are randomly placed faced down cards, in the base game there is a risk that a player can get an amazingly good run in their picks, denying the other player access to resources or counter cards. It happens way more often than I'd have expected. Pantheons allows players to take a break from the cut-choose mode in an attempt to force the other player to make the "worse" available choice. The favorable runs are highly mitigated as a result and the whole expansion adds amazing depth to the game. It should've just been included as part of the base game.
Interesting! I'll have to try that.
that is a great point... i think if one assesses it there is def. instances of luck streaking through the game, i should assess further. maybe one of the reasons that as much as the mech. are fun in the game, i don't really love it or feel in control somehow. plus i always forget a little nitpicking rule or conversion opportunity.
Do you think the auctions in Power Grid or the Bazaar expansion for Carcassonne can be considered in the I-price-You-choose category? (Especially the Bazaar)
I haven't played Bazaar. For Power Grid (and other auction games), while they are in the same family, I wouldn't use the term "cutting" or even "pricing" for them.
Good stuff Jamey. This is one of my favourite mechanics. Castles of MKL is one of my favourite go to mid-weight games for both my experienced gaming group and for teaching new gamers. Without spoilers, are there any 'I Cut/You Choose' mechanics in Rise of Fenris campaign?
Jason: Nope, I haven't used I-cut-you-choose in a game yet, but I hope to someday!
I love this mechanism! Only downside is the downtime that can be associated with these types of games when the cutter has a hard decision to make (particularly in larger player counts) and while they are making their decision on how to split the cards or whatever, the other players have nothing to do. So in that Skyward game the mechanic is solid and works well; but I think it works better with fewer players. When playing with four players for example, the cutter is given 16 cards that they have to split in any way that they choose (3-4-5-4 etc). If the cards only had one piece of information then that’d be fine I think; but because the cards have effects and abilities that play off of each other, having to look at all the possible combinations as well as what other players have in their tableaus and then trying to split it so that you’re still left with cards you want while also not giving your opponents a good pile can really be a long and difficult decision for some players.
A simple I Split You Choose game that I like is Sundae Split from Renegade Games. It’s basically Sushi Go! but instead of the card drafting mechanic you have the splitting. The thing I like about the splitting mechanic here is that when the cutter makes the different piles they have to put some cards face down.
Too bad you didn’t like Zooscape. I just ordered it the other day and now my hopes aren’t as high as they were before. Haha. Hopefully my group will like it.
Thanks again for the video!
Tuan: That's a great point--I've experienced that a few times with Ludwig. That's good to know about Sundae Split!
Jamie have you ever played key harvest, by Richard Breeze? Tile placement with I price you choose. It sounds similar in mechanics to the way that Isle of Sky works.
Nice! No, I haven't heard of that one.
almost totally forgot about this game... too many key games (-:
I was going to add this. I played this one for the first time last month and thought it must have influenced Isle of Skye.
You should play San Marco. It's area majority with I cut you choose as the only mechanic in the game. Works great with 3 (not as good with 4).
Thanks Jorge! I'll make a note of that so I can try it.
Great video! I love Castles of Mad King Ludwig! I feel like its “I price you choose” mechanism with the master builder is what makes it superior to Suburbia, where the tile prices are more determined by fate.
By the way, where do you get that elastic that was covering Isle of Skye?
A friend had a pile of those rubber bands, so he gave me one. I think they're made for keeping containers of food together.
Great list. However, the glaring omission IMO is Animals on Board.
The idea of 7 Wonders Duel in a multiplayer game is used in good old Mahjong or the pretty new game Dragon Castle!
Oh really? That's awesome! I didn't know that.
I had not thought about that, but Dragon Castle is awesome!
I just played Isle of Skye this past Tuesday and I'm just not very good at it. I don't know how to strategize around this structure. And that's not to say I don't like the game, I just haven't figured out how to play it well. I think I get lost in what choices are best to go after and often the tiles I do end up wanting either don't end up doing enough for me or they get taken long before I get there.
I've also played Castle of Mad Ludwig, but only the app. And I enjoy it for the most part, though I never enjoyed pricing pieces. Some choices seem more obvious, too many not so much. And I can imagine playing with real people will make how to price even harder (I don't mind hard, it's just not the kind of hard I find appealing to wrap my brain around).
Your idea sounds potentially interesting. Maybe if there was a board with different slots, and prices that shifted (like an outer ring with the different slots for the cards, and an inner ring with the prices and something triggers the wheel changing). So everytime you play a card to a slot, it has an effect (such as shifting the inner wheel, gain resources, or gain funds). Or, instead of playing a card, you buy one of the slots with cards based on the current price. Maybe one of the cards will also place new cards in certain slots from the deck? I could see that being an interesting puzzle, when do you buy, when do you play a card. Maybe certain cards can chain to allow you to play an additional card, so the most ideal time to play cards is when you can combo them into your hand. And you got to make sure not to play too many cards into a slot to make it more tempting to buy.
I am not fond of having to set my own prices, but playing cards to slots with prices already is something I'd very much like to try!
This needs an updated video - but maybe after I release my game 😂
You mentioned that you'll be at GenCon - would it be possible to catch you at the Stonemaier games booth for quick thank you and maybe a pic during a weekend?
Sure! Though I won't be at the booth. You can drop by the Denver conference room at the Marriott for one of our nightly game nights (Thurs/Fri/Sat) from 8:00 to 11:00 to say hi. :)
Haha, it's so funny. Today I was looking for some games to buy and Castles of Mad King Ludwig was one of the options. It's in my cart now! Did you try the Secrets expansion?
I have played with the expansion a few times, but I tend to play more with the base game--there's a TON of variability in the base game alone.
Not to mention Secrets just makes the tedious set-up even longer and more aggravating
What if you created a cut and choose on action selections?
Oo, I like that! One player cuts (or prices) the available actions, and the other players choose/buy them? Very interesting!
This is very intriguing! I really like action selection games.
I guess there aren’t too many true I cut you choose games, as frankly I wouldn’t put 7W:Duel and Isle of Skye in those categories, as much as I like them.
Animals on Board and Skyward too!
Ponzi Scheme is a great I price you choose game.
I liked Zooscape the one time
I played it. What did you mean by the cutter passed when there was a tie and nothing happened? The blind choice was interesting to me because we often had one side with more "good stuff" than the other. When multiple people chose the same side, that "good stuff" gets cut between just those players. My interesting choice was whether to choose to take the side with less "good stuff" but keep it all or the side with more "good stuff" that would get split sooner. Of course, others know this too and may also choose the side with "less good stuff" and we could be letting one person get all the "good stuff" while we are stuck splitting the leftovers. I never felt the cut reset until we reached a final conclusion to that line.
It's possible I misunderstood the rules, but my understanding is that unless a single person chooses one of the sides (only one), nothing happens.
Yeah, I could definitely see that being boring. Give it another look. I am pretty certain that's not the case.
Joshua: I double checked, and you're right! While I still don't like the blind bid, at least this will prevent dead turns with no sense of progression.
Jamey, check out Sundae Split. I think it adds a nice bluffing wrinkle to the genre.
Thanks! It's on my list now. :)
Does anyone know where this mechanic comes from? I first encountered it in MTG's "Fact or Fiction" Printed in 2000. I assume Fact or Fiction isn't the first use of this mechanic. Can anyone think of an earlier version?
This was my inspiration for Sundae Split. Fact or Fiction is definitely the earliest game version of this I've seen.
Indeed, Fact or Fiction came to mind for me too--I almost put it on this list. :)
Jamey Stegmaier I also love Hanamikoji. There are M:tG card analogues for the "I cut you choose" actions. The 1/2 split is called Intuition and the 2/2 split is called Gifts Ungiven.
Hi Jamie, have you played Andromeda?
I haven't! Is it I cut you choose?
Yeah, with dice! ;)
Isn't Medici "I Price You Choose" game?
Or at least the 2 player version is...
I'd say it's in the realm of I cut you choose, though you're not really cutting--you're more deciding how big you want the auction to be.
I'm trying to create a very realistic but simple TTRPG with no prior experience, which is hardly unique within the game design world. However, I want to distinguish myself by using lots of other game mechanics that are instantly recognisable for what they were taken from to make play a lot easier. For example, I want to find a way to have a rock-paper-scissors interaction with the choices in a combat. "Sword is weak against shield, shield is weak against bow, bow is strong against sword", except with a lot more nuance and historical accuracy
I would love to implement I-Cut-You-Choose, but I'm not entirely familiar with all the ways it is used. Can someone give me some examples? I like that it implies fairness and it can be positive or negative. I'm also a fan of how the responsibility of cutting can be given to either a player, the game master in place of an NPC, or the game master as the omnipotent power. It could work fantastically as a response mechanic - someone attacks you, now you have a split second to wasting your turn defending yourself but prevent the damage or do something else and accept the consequences. However, I know there's more to it, and the more I know the more likely I am to make it fair for everyone. Any help is greatly appreaciated!
Very cool! There are some examples detailed in this video that should help.
Siggil (boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/180179/siggil) is a filler game up to 4 players that uses the same drafting mechanism as 7 wonders duel.
Awesome, thanks! I'll check it out.
Jamey Stegmaier no worries. By the way, wouldn't arboretum fit this category since you need to discard a card your opponents might pick each turn?
Sure, I think it's in the same realm. :)
Your design idea of discarding a card each turn to a buying stack - filling in an empty space if their is one.
Quick thought... Everyone has their own market spaces. On your turn, you can or must (not sure if there are other actions available) buy a card from someone else’s market (but not your own) and the money goes to that player. You would replace spaces when it’s your turn again. I can already see a problem with this... that some may not buy any of your cards. soooo..
either the bank adds coins to your cards that have not been purchased to make them more enticing.
if no one buys any of your cards, you just gain money which would entice people to buy your cards to prevent you from getting money for nothing (or would it?).
Thanks for sharing this! I think something along those lines could work.
Oceanos is a great game, but it's not an "I cut, you choose" game. It is a card drafting game. Jamey must be thinking of the drafting mechanic in which players draft their card, and then give their discards to the dealer. This is not an "I cut, you choose" mechanism by definition, since players are cutting and choosing. If it were an "I cut, you choose" game, players would cut the selection and then the dealer would get to choose. But in this case, the player both makes the cut ("I cut") and the choice ("I choose").
You forgot to mention the worst part of this mechanism in 3+ player games, if you have an unskilled player that doesn't make optimal "cutting decisions", player order becomes a significant factor in who wins the game.
First comment!! Where's Walter?
He's napping. :) Any thoughts on the topic at hand?
I bought Isle of Skye a couple months ago and haven't played it. Watching this inspired me to break it out for the family. Most of us loved it...my wife wins most of the games we play #charterstone and this one was no different...she is very good at games with lots of scoring mechanics. The ability to keep other players from scoring, while amassing tons of her own points.
Thanks for the videos, and thanks for the wonderful games you have created. I am working on a game...working my way through your checklist.