Still on my first play through, but gotta say White Knight has been a beast! But, when you said "Leap Attack" on Black Knight, that makes me REALLY want to try him out!
All champions need that rage + glory kill + killing spree combo to start sweeping. But leap attack puts black knight at a huge adv over other champions; you leap -> killing spree + glory kill to reset the cooldown and leap attack again. In some cases, you can be doing leap attack three times in a single turn by stacking that cooldown reset. I think before unlocking glory kill + killing spree, champions that have armor skills like sir brunor are safer to use.
Definitely safer to use for sure, but like you said, the combo is so strong I think it basically put him on another level. He will have access to this combo for more of the game than he does without it when taking endgame into consideration.
I hear a lot of people mentioning Lancelot's damage being lower that one of the champions with rage. That's not entirely true. It's actually higher at base because of the Lone Wolf bonuses. So it's even easier to start killing spree with Lancelot. His damage starts to fall off after 3rd or 4th kill, but that is the point where overkilling usually starts on Rage champs anyway, so with the gear, that stacks damage on kill, you can wipe groups with Lancelot almost as efficient as with Rage champions. And in a way even more efficient, because it's easier to get initial kills with him and he has mobility skill that works with Juggernaut. Overall, considering all the utilities he has, I'd put him on S tier.
That's why I put him at A tier, that and his support abilities. His damage is not as high and with the update and enemies getting way more HP in the endgame its actually pretty noticeable. He does have better base damage though.
I would argue the white knights top potential is vastly superior to all other champions. He is however very reliant on equipment such as the TP ring and the TP on kill trophy. Add those with his weapon buff and the ap on kill essence he is literally unstoppable. You easily one turn every single enemy group.
Tbh, having used both extensively, Black Knight and White Knight have extremely similar performance ceilings. Black Knight is more consistent however imo and White Knight scales better with tp gear. Gear is RNG though so I don't want to tier characters based on elements some players may not run into during their runs. Compared to all the others ones aside from Black Knight and yes, I'd say these two are definitely noticeably stronger than the other champions.
I'm currently running with Black and White. It's hard to not notice White was much much idle than Black :) even I tried to give him teleport and teleport on kill. Black just keeping leap attacking and cleaving/killing spree and easily stacking lots of rage.
I'm planning to do one for all the classes and then eventually one list for every character. Not sure when each of these will come out, but it's on my list.
I would put Lancelot in S,coz inspire and CC is just too good(and u can run 2nd champion for dmg).ANd balan into A tier(he is just too good early game),coz it is So easy to build loyalty with him and he also get bonus exp(that helps sometimes).
I can understand your perspective on both of these. I didn't really take into consideration early game placement too much and mostly focused on performance over the course of the entire game, but I definitely understand your reasoning for that and that makes sense.
Hi, nice video as always, but next time please try to maximize the Tier-Liste, so that the really annoying advertisement is not shown, and the space is better used!!
Thank you, I appreciate it! I'm actually probably gonna do a video for my primary team comp for this alignment with some details for why certain picks etc. But the short version is Balan, Merlin, Morgana and Mordred if I want a defender or Isolde if I want a sage :)
@@maxxalos1267 looking forward to a team comp video for RO. Would love to see your thoughts on each combination for planning who to keep on different runs. Great videos!
I use Balan, Isolde, merlin and the last one change from lancelot, morgana or mordred. Never have any problem. I did use a teleport ring on balan fairly early so that may change things a little for you.
I've seen multiple videos with comments talking about one turn killing entire enemy groups. I'm on my second Roguelike-Hard play through and I just don't see how that's possible when you have groups that feature loads of enemies with 300+ HP with half a dozen with 900+ HP in them, even with the teleport items etc. 😕 When even the squishiest of archers has 100HP, how are you doing kill chains?
It's harder to get started now due to the health increases, but the method is largely the same. You can see earlier versions of it in action with my champion related videos or my Power Ranger team build video features Champion dps and shows this off a little too. The general strategy is to pass the first turn to ramp up Damage Focus. If the enemies start really far away sometimes pass the first two turns for even more damage boosts and let the enemy come to you so they naturally bunch up a bit more. Use the rest of the team to damage and soften them up, then with the champion you go in and start getting as many multi kills as possible with proper positioning to ramp up Rage stacks. Using Killing Spree you can get lots of free attacks/potential kills in.
Right now, I'm trying to plan for the 12 knights I want. I'm Tyrant/Old Faith, beginning of Act 2. The mission for the Black Knight was triggered, I have Kay, Balan and Lanval. I gave Kay EoMending to help reduce the vitality issue. Lanval Blacksmith trait is very nice and helped me get EoArmour before the end of Act 1. I'm considering keeping both Kay and Lanval around, Kay as the backup to the Black Knight and sentimental reasons (I'm stubern and am not going to waste the Essence) and Lanval, just for the Blacksmith trait (additional % armor gained when resting). I'll probably drop Balan (i do have Balin too), as I wanted to maximize the number of heroes I had in the first act. If I had known about Lanval I would have just taken the Tyrant point and given the bridge to Balin. Early game, if Mordred has to miss a mission it's nice to have the option of two champions at least as it's a while before you can get a 2nd defender. Compared to defenders, every other class feels squishy (even champions).
Dang. Brunor le Noir has Tax Collector trait. Might have to go with him instead of Kay just to counter the Mercenary trait the Black Knight has. Very funny though, Brunor is a brutal tax collector and all the taxes go to the Black Knight.
@@SevenPatch Sounds almost fitting lol. In my experience the mercenary trait isn't that bad. Especially in old faith tyrant you can get a decree to get TONS of gold.
Okay, I've settled on the following 12 Knights for my plan: A-Team: Mordred - Defender [Training Grounds for extra XP for those not on a mission] Black Knight - Champion (Tyrant) Merlin - Arcanist (Old-Faith) 4th slot options: Guinevere - Sage (Old-Faith / Rightful) Balin - Vanguard (Tyrant / Christian) Tristan - Vanguard B-Team: Red Knight - Defender (Tyrant) Brunor le Noir - Champion (Tyrant) [Master of Round Table for extra $ to pay the Black Knight] Morgana le Fay - Arcanist (Old-Faith) Camelot specialists: Dindraine - Marksman (Christian) [Hospice for healing potion increase] Ector - Arcanist (Tyrant / Christian) [Enchanted Tower for Relic Dust] Lanval - Champion [Merchant for increased Amor restored when Resting] I guess if I drop anyone, it might be Tristan, but not before I at least get Isolde in the Crypt or Aspirant Heroes. Hopefully the Aspirant Heroes list will include: Pelleas Tegyr Bors Dagonet Bedievere Percivale Boudicea Faerie Knight Also known as the JV team.
@@maxxalos1267 Teleporting gear feels like mandatory for every champion in the late game. A little less so on BK and Lancelot due to mobility skills they have, but still.
@@artifixer I actively avoid tp on kill gear with my champions and honestly I am doing fine. Yes it really helps, is broken some would say, but I have not needed it.
I rank without taking any gear into account, otherwise it's just Wreath of Bebd and all of them one turn pretty much every encounter. That said, White Knight is my personal second place so I get where you're coming from.
Im not sure how you think sir kay is bad he gets max loyalty through his own events early on plus like 1 or 2 random events all of this during a time when you have legit nobody else that the loyalty would be worth using on. The neutral is without question one of the best things about him because before the end of first part of the game he has max loyalty and since he is neutral he wont be losing loyalty. There is a very small downside which is the minus loyalty on taking damage but i dont see it as a downside at all because if i use all the same units 100% of the time the game feels meh. So when he takes like 1 damage i swap him out for a mission while he heals.
Loyalty is like the least important factor for this. Largely valuing their skills and team comp viability because in the long run loyalty is very easy to acquire. Getting higher loyalty earlier on is nice, but it's nothing amazing to offset what I think are his downsides in comparison to everyone else. It's a bell curve, someone is going to be at the bottom lol. If you're playing on Very Hard, the lack of defensive stance in the early game is quite noticeable and playing with him just becomes harder in comparison to other options. By later stages of the game where defensive stance isn't relevant the only thing he has to help him stand out is kick but then he has the terrible tier 3 counter skill. By that stage Balan, Brunor, Kay and Lanval are basically interchangeable. But the lead up before that in the early to mid game I think most players will generally have an easier time with Balan, Brunor and Lanval. If you're fine with his negative trait then cool, but for many other players its kind of a pain. Also I don't think he's bad, all Champions in this game are good. I just think he's the worst of the Champion options in the game overall.
@@maxxalos1267 I think your not looking at his advantages and only looking at what he's bad at. first, he is only champion to have Talented which reduces skill point by 1. The way to look at this talent is that artificially increases his level-cap and artificially increases his levels in early game. that's kinda huge especially early game-mid game. Out of all champions, he has very low opportunity cost for unlocking all his skills. The second is that he is only champion to have access to both power strike and deathblow and he has access to cleave early on which is essentially for clearing hordes of enemies. He can easily buy earth shatter extremely early in the game, so he has really good AoE options. He has great versatility in his kit. He can do everything. He can clear, he has good anti-boss/big unit capacity and he can stack his rage with all essential damage bonuses. Lastly, Because you unlock him right at the start, he will be highest level character on your team and he has highest base loyalty such that the negative loyalties barely matters because by the time you finish act. you can just use another character(like vanguards), but if you get skill negative skill eraser item, I used it on him and I have no regrets because by end of act 1, I had -12 loyality on him (+1) and now he's 13/15. A little bit more and he will have +1 ap. Neutral I think is pretty big thing for him as well because technically speaking, regardless of what morality choices you take, he will always be relevant if you negative skill removal on him. In act 1, he was by far my strongest unit. Here's item I had for him. Weapon: Giantfeller's marker 16 damage, 20 armor break, "The first melee attack costs 0 ap each turn, +2 damage for basic attacks, Loses 3 hp at the end of each turn" Armor: Gain 2 AP for the first turn of each encounter, +2 HP Backstabbing's ring of Leeching: Regain 2 hp for each kill, +2 damage for backstab attacks Powerful trophy of Leeching: Regain 2 hp for each kill, +1 weapon damage Personally, I think he's underrated as a character because he has hyper offensive kit that allows him to do some serious damage output while still remaining somewhat tanky(at least in early game) compare to say... vanguards, marksman and wizards. He is durable enough to absorb hits but does good damage to justify his place in teams.
Balan is S tier because "For king and country" and "everyone slept well?"
Still on my first play through, but gotta say White Knight has been a beast! But, when you said "Leap Attack" on Black Knight, that makes me REALLY want to try him out!
It's a very fun and satisfying move imo
All champions need that rage + glory kill + killing spree combo to start sweeping. But leap attack puts black knight at a huge adv over other champions; you leap -> killing spree + glory kill to reset the cooldown and leap attack again. In some cases, you can be doing leap attack three times in a single turn by stacking that cooldown reset.
I think before unlocking glory kill + killing spree, champions that have armor skills like sir brunor are safer to use.
Definitely safer to use for sure, but like you said, the combo is so strong I think it basically put him on another level. He will have access to this combo for more of the game than he does without it when taking endgame into consideration.
I hear a lot of people mentioning Lancelot's damage being lower that one of the champions with rage. That's not entirely true. It's actually higher at base because of the Lone Wolf bonuses. So it's even easier to start killing spree with Lancelot. His damage starts to fall off after 3rd or 4th kill, but that is the point where overkilling usually starts on Rage champs anyway, so with the gear, that stacks damage on kill, you can wipe groups with Lancelot almost as efficient as with Rage champions. And in a way even more efficient, because it's easier to get initial kills with him and he has mobility skill that works with Juggernaut. Overall, considering all the utilities he has, I'd put him on S tier.
That's why I put him at A tier, that and his support abilities. His damage is not as high and with the update and enemies getting way more HP in the endgame its actually pretty noticeable. He does have better base damage though.
I would argue the white knights top potential is vastly superior to all other champions. He is however very reliant on equipment such as the TP ring and the TP on kill trophy. Add those with his weapon buff and the ap on kill essence he is literally unstoppable. You easily one turn every single enemy group.
Tbh, having used both extensively, Black Knight and White Knight have extremely similar performance ceilings. Black Knight is more consistent however imo and White Knight scales better with tp gear. Gear is RNG though so I don't want to tier characters based on elements some players may not run into during their runs. Compared to all the others ones aside from Black Knight and yes, I'd say these two are definitely noticeably stronger than the other champions.
@@maxxalos1267 Yeah I think thats the best take overall. Took me 21 levels to even find the TP on kill trophy haha
I'm currently running with Black and White. It's hard to not notice White was much much idle than Black :) even I tried to give him teleport and teleport on kill. Black just keeping leap attacking and cleaving/killing spree and easily stacking lots of rage.
Are you planning to do a Defender tier list? Thanks for the content nonetheless
I'm planning to do one for all the classes and then eventually one list for every character. Not sure when each of these will come out, but it's on my list.
I would put Lancelot in S,coz inspire and CC is just too good(and u can run 2nd champion for dmg).ANd balan into A tier(he is just too good early game),coz it is So easy to build loyalty with him and he also get bonus exp(that helps sometimes).
I can understand your perspective on both of these. I didn't really take into consideration early game placement too much and mostly focused on performance over the course of the entire game, but I definitely understand your reasoning for that and that makes sense.
Do a tier list for all the classes and an overall tier list please! :)
This is definitely on my list of videos to do :)
I second this there's not nearly enough good information like this online for this amazing game!
Hi, nice video as always, but next time please try to maximize the Tier-Liste, so that the really annoying advertisement is not shown, and the space is better used!!
I don't use tiermaker very often so I'm trying to figure that out. Sorry about that.
@@maxxalos1267 No worries :)
Just for the next time :)
Sir Lanval armor is so good tho
Hello! Love your vids. What team comps do you use for a rightful old run?
Thank you, I appreciate it! I'm actually probably gonna do a video for my primary team comp for this alignment with some details for why certain picks etc. But the short version is Balan, Merlin, Morgana and Mordred if I want a defender or Isolde if I want a sage :)
@@maxxalos1267 looking forward to a team comp video for RO. Would love to see your thoughts on each combination for planning who to keep on different runs. Great videos!
@@Talosar74 I appreciate it, I hope to have it recorded and edited soon!
Awesome, cant wait!
I use Balan, Isolde, merlin and the last one change from lancelot, morgana or mordred. Never have any problem. I did use a teleport ring on balan fairly early so that may change things a little for you.
I've seen multiple videos with comments talking about one turn killing entire enemy groups. I'm on my second Roguelike-Hard play through and I just don't see how that's possible when you have groups that feature loads of enemies with 300+ HP with half a dozen with 900+ HP in them, even with the teleport items etc. 😕
When even the squishiest of archers has 100HP, how are you doing kill chains?
It's harder to get started now due to the health increases, but the method is largely the same. You can see earlier versions of it in action with my champion related videos or my Power Ranger team build video features Champion dps and shows this off a little too. The general strategy is to pass the first turn to ramp up Damage Focus. If the enemies start really far away sometimes pass the first two turns for even more damage boosts and let the enemy come to you so they naturally bunch up a bit more. Use the rest of the team to damage and soften them up, then with the champion you go in and start getting as many multi kills as possible with proper positioning to ramp up Rage stacks. Using Killing Spree you can get lots of free attacks/potential kills in.
@@maxxalos1267 I'll check those videos out. 👍
That thumbnail made me irl lol 😂
Lol, which part was the lol factor
Right now, I'm trying to plan for the 12 knights I want. I'm Tyrant/Old Faith, beginning of Act 2. The mission for the Black Knight was triggered, I have Kay, Balan and Lanval. I gave Kay EoMending to help reduce the vitality issue. Lanval Blacksmith trait is very nice and helped me get EoArmour before the end of Act 1. I'm considering keeping both Kay and Lanval around, Kay as the backup to the Black Knight and sentimental reasons (I'm stubern and am not going to waste the Essence) and Lanval, just for the Blacksmith trait (additional % armor gained when resting).
I'll probably drop Balan (i do have Balin too), as I wanted to maximize the number of heroes I had in the first act. If I had known about Lanval I would have just taken the Tyrant point and given the bridge to Balin. Early game, if Mordred has to miss a mission it's nice to have the option of two champions at least as it's a while before you can get a 2nd defender. Compared to defenders, every other class feels squishy (even champions).
That's a solid plan, I personally would drop Lanval still but I get why you're keeping him.
Dang. Brunor le Noir has Tax Collector trait. Might have to go with him instead of Kay just to counter the Mercenary trait the Black Knight has. Very funny though, Brunor is a brutal tax collector and all the taxes go to the Black Knight.
@@SevenPatch Sounds almost fitting lol. In my experience the mercenary trait isn't that bad. Especially in old faith tyrant you can get a decree to get TONS of gold.
Okay, I've settled on the following 12 Knights for my plan:
A-Team:
Mordred - Defender [Training Grounds for extra XP for those not on a mission]
Black Knight - Champion (Tyrant)
Merlin - Arcanist (Old-Faith)
4th slot options:
Guinevere - Sage (Old-Faith / Rightful)
Balin - Vanguard (Tyrant / Christian)
Tristan - Vanguard
B-Team:
Red Knight - Defender (Tyrant)
Brunor le Noir - Champion (Tyrant) [Master of Round Table for extra $ to pay the Black Knight]
Morgana le Fay - Arcanist (Old-Faith)
Camelot specialists:
Dindraine - Marksman (Christian) [Hospice for healing potion increase]
Ector - Arcanist (Tyrant / Christian) [Enchanted Tower for Relic Dust]
Lanval - Champion [Merchant for increased Amor restored when Resting]
I guess if I drop anyone, it might be Tristan, but not before I at least get Isolde in the Crypt or Aspirant Heroes.
Hopefully the Aspirant Heroes list will include:
Pelleas
Tegyr
Bors
Dagonet
Bedievere
Percivale
Boudicea
Faerie Knight
Also known as the JV team.
@@SevenPatch Solid roster picks all around
Lancelot and White knight are better than Black knight, but only if they have that relic which tps you to enemi unit in 8 tiles range.
Which is why I specifically said how I'm not tiering this with gear and I mention how White Knight would be better with that gear.
@@maxxalos1267 Teleporting gear feels like mandatory for every champion in the late game. A little less so on BK and Lancelot due to mobility skills they have, but still.
@@artifixer I actively avoid tp on kill gear with my champions and honestly I am doing fine. Yes it really helps, is broken some would say, but I have not needed it.
White knight > Black Knight. Put teleport ring in and watch carnage.
I rank without taking any gear into account, otherwise it's just Wreath of Bebd and all of them one turn pretty much every encounter. That said, White Knight is my personal second place so I get where you're coming from.
Im not sure how you think sir kay is bad he gets max loyalty through his own events early on plus like 1 or 2 random events all of this during a time when you have legit nobody else that the loyalty would be worth using on. The neutral is without question one of the best things about him because before the end of first part of the game he has max loyalty and since he is neutral he wont be losing loyalty. There is a very small downside which is the minus loyalty on taking damage but i dont see it as a downside at all because if i use all the same units 100% of the time the game feels meh. So when he takes like 1 damage i swap him out for a mission while he heals.
Loyalty is like the least important factor for this. Largely valuing their skills and team comp viability because in the long run loyalty is very easy to acquire. Getting higher loyalty earlier on is nice, but it's nothing amazing to offset what I think are his downsides in comparison to everyone else. It's a bell curve, someone is going to be at the bottom lol. If you're playing on Very Hard, the lack of defensive stance in the early game is quite noticeable and playing with him just becomes harder in comparison to other options. By later stages of the game where defensive stance isn't relevant the only thing he has to help him stand out is kick but then he has the terrible tier 3 counter skill. By that stage Balan, Brunor, Kay and Lanval are basically interchangeable. But the lead up before that in the early to mid game I think most players will generally have an easier time with Balan, Brunor and Lanval. If you're fine with his negative trait then cool, but for many other players its kind of a pain. Also I don't think he's bad, all Champions in this game are good. I just think he's the worst of the Champion options in the game overall.
@@maxxalos1267 I think your not looking at his advantages and only looking at what he's bad at. first, he is only champion to have Talented which reduces skill point by 1. The way to look at this talent is that artificially increases his level-cap and artificially increases his levels in early game. that's kinda huge especially early game-mid game. Out of all champions, he has very low opportunity cost for unlocking all his skills.
The second is that he is only champion to have access to both power strike and deathblow and he has access to cleave early on which is essentially for clearing hordes of enemies. He can easily buy earth shatter extremely early in the game, so he has really good AoE options. He has great versatility in his kit. He can do everything. He can clear, he has good anti-boss/big unit capacity and he can stack his rage with all essential damage bonuses.
Lastly, Because you unlock him right at the start, he will be highest level character on your team and he has highest base loyalty such that the negative loyalties barely matters because by the time you finish act. you can just use another character(like vanguards), but if you get skill negative skill eraser item, I used it on him and I have no regrets because by end of act 1, I had -12 loyality on him (+1) and now he's 13/15. A little bit more and he will have +1 ap. Neutral I think is pretty big thing for him as well because technically speaking, regardless of what morality choices you take, he will always be relevant if you negative skill removal on him.
In act 1, he was by far my strongest unit. Here's item I had for him.
Weapon: Giantfeller's marker 16 damage, 20 armor break, "The first melee attack costs 0 ap each turn, +2 damage for basic attacks, Loses 3 hp at the end of each turn"
Armor: Gain 2 AP for the first turn of each encounter, +2 HP
Backstabbing's ring of Leeching: Regain 2 hp for each kill, +2 damage for backstab attacks
Powerful trophy of Leeching: Regain 2 hp for each kill, +1 weapon damage
Personally, I think he's underrated as a character because he has hyper offensive kit that allows him to do some serious damage output while still remaining somewhat tanky(at least in early game) compare to say... vanguards, marksman and wizards. He is durable enough to absorb hits but does good damage to justify his place in teams.