DCS: F-16 Revisited! Is It Better?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 พ.ค. 2023
- Former F-16 pilot flies the DCS: F-16. Have the updates improved it?
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Bet that 4090 is a huge jump in VR. Haven't tried VR myself yet but jeez the FPS in 2D alone is worth the insane price.
Drewskis a fan of Mover? Holy shit so based
(O_o)
Didn’t expect to see you here!
I have no idea what kind of unforseen challenges you might face while trying to produce content for your channel, but I found playing DCS to be way more fun in VR.
You need to PvP mover in DCS!
Would love to see you dogfight Mover!
10:31 "Nonstandard. Do not attempt in real life." Let me just fire up my personal F-16 and KC-135 real quick 😂😂
Always nice to see how real fighter pilots do the stuff in DCS
All I can say is that it always is a good day when you upload, especially any kind of aviation content.
The "Training Mission" starts with a straight 'n level flying MiG, if you want a maneuvering target it's best to set up a fight in the Mission Editor where you can set loadout, positioning and skill level of the adversary. Set to max skill they can be a challenge! Also Mover, good to see you back on the DCS Viper!
Agreed, this is a noob exercise to introduce beginners to the basic concepts of dogfighting.
Imo the ai will never be a challenge after some bfm experience, I'd love to see him hop in dcs dogfighters
I'm like a month in and I cannot for the life of me stay stable enough to refuel. So glad to hear that it's not that hard in real life, this give me hope.
That sarcastic enthusiasm against the Mig and SU-27 followed by the aileron roll had me cracking up.
Seriously appreciate the "This is still a video game." So many act like it's reality.
Different types of fun
The oscillations during instant action were probably because the autopilot was on. Ai derping out is weird, I don’t usually see that.
Thanks for a follow up video on this module, I have noticed improvements as well, but I know it’s still a far cry from the insane performance this jet is capable of.
Hopefully we see improvements in the areas you mentioned, particularly bleed rate at higher density altitude and G onset. (Also AOA unloading, as AOA likes to stick around even when releasing the stick). Lastly, thanks for the warning to not attempt to go up and over the tanker in real life. I needed that reminder 😢
Don't worry, I didn't get into the airforce either mate, was also my dream :)
I've been saying it's bleeding too much energy compared to BMS. Mover should really try BMS now since it's support VR
So glad you called out that this is NOT a US F-16 but based off FMS/Export data. ED refuses to just acknowledge this, as it counters their initial sales pitch. The continual compromises in the particulars of the systems and allowable weapons, counter what the USAF fleet carry. Cheers.
It's common knowledge on the ED forums that it is based largely on the Greek block 50 manual.
Please do a video on Falcon BMS, it would be really interesting to hear your opinion on it as it is seemingly supposed to be a much closer simulation of the flight model & systems
Not true when it comes to flight model. I gave BMS up because its only superior in avionics and sensors. It flies nothing like a real viper.
@@MetaliCanuck Whats the reasoning behind you saying it doesnt fly like the real f16?From what I've read from other f16 pilots its the closest we have.
@@MetaliCanuck idk I was in the TAF flew a bit of the viper and the energy management on the bms viper is much better I think the main problem is that dcs fms bleed energy so fast and they don’t gain it fast enough
@@MetaliCanuck The bms dev team used nasa data for the fm on the bms f16, there is also a 130 page pdf on how they modelled the bms f16 with extensive doghouse/acceleration charts for each f16 block, you don't even get 1 em chart for the viper in dcs-I think that tells you alot on how dcs and bms approach flight sims.
I have waited a long time for a video like this! Your personal insight is very valued for us playing the game (sim).
I will never, ever going to do this is in real life, so for me I would like the F-16 to be as close as possible to the real thing… still knowing its just a game.
But a huge thank you for doing this!
Nice to hear the criticisms of the DCS F-16 flight model. I'm convinced that the stability is not up to scratch, the slight waffly feel and wandering nose make things like tanking and guns tracking more difficult and less intuitive than they should be. I'm also not convinced the energy retention shouldn't be better as well.
I wondered what your thoughts were on the updates. Thanks for doing this!
Excellent stuff! Love seeing you in a DCS fast pointy jet. I know it gets a lot of internet people worked up but the last Mover vs Gonky stuff was one of my favorite things, looking forward to the rematch!
Can you checkout BMS too?
For me, who will never sit and fly a real Viper, I'm happy that stuff like this exists. I have the stick/throttle that replaced the warthog and it comes with a variety of springs but I've never changed them. I'm super fond of the Block 50 Viper, one of my best buddies used to work on them as ground crew. Beauties.
It's not wrong to call DCS a video game, because it IS a video game. Definitely a detailed one, and it would be a lie to say that I haven't learned some things about military aviation since I started playing it, but it's still a video game.
I think it would be more fair and likely produce less triggering to call DCS what it really is, a consumer level study sim. It's not really a game unless you play on arcade settings. If you're playing DCS the way the vast majority of us are you are in sim mode and this requires learning the systems of the airframe you're intending to fly, at a minimum, and for the complete experience learning communications and procedures that replicate military aviation. This is well beyond the scope of what most gamers are willing to do and is clearly a barrier for the instant gratification crowd that gamers tend to be.
@@MichaelMoellerTRLInc a simulator is a game
@@MichaelMoellerTRLInc Indeed, I have been a gamer for a long time playing mostly RPGs and MMORPGs but ever since I started flying in DCS all my buddies are intimidated by it and refuse to join me
@@RW-zn8vy ya pretty certain that the USAF, USN USMC and US Army as well as major airlines, NASA , NASCAR , F1 and numerous other organizations would take exception to calling their simulators "games".
@@MichaelMoellerTRLInc it’s what they are, maybe try googling the definition of a simulator.
Completely agree with you Mover. Haven't flown the viper since my retirement in 2010, but I second 100% what you comments about energy bleeding, 9 Gz turn and AAR. Big fun of your channel and great admirer of your mentality and your ethos!!!
Would be interesting to see you in the BMS Viper, bit of a different beast over there. Maybe check it out once the new graphical update gets released 2024.
Plus BMS models different blocks. Despite the older graphics which actually work just fine (yeah they are no where near DCS) he should check it out now that it supports VR. I'd be curious what he thinks given BMS is way more fleshed out. Also I know they did a ton of research on the FMs.
@@seancummings7788 I don't think it's necessary to directly compare the two, both have their strengths. But one thing the BMS Viper FM absolutely nails is the joy of flying. It's like mind controlling the jet, which I believe is the feeling Viper pilots are looking for.
Yes I would love to see that comparison. I find that the F-16 gets a lot wobblier in DCS under heavy loads at slow speeds.
@@Dwight511 there are dozens of us!
@@MikeSwanberg You mean like all Vipers get wobbly at high loads slow speeds? The only things BMS has on DCS is avionic suites and DTC, thats it. I gave it up for that reason.
appreciate the reasonable perspective and all the nuggets of knowledge shared. Golden!
Thanks for this. Always enjoy your aviation content. Hope the views pick up.
Great video, Mover. Nice to see you in DCS again.
Agree with your observations about the slop in the controls with a cam/spring base. For what its worth, I found the DCS Viper to feel much better after I switched to a force-sensing stick. RealSimulator has a great force-sensing solution (FSSB R3L) that is based on the real Viper HOTAS. It works great with other DCS modules too, even the helos.
Hope you get a chance to put more time into DCS!
Wow, I had no idea the FSSB existed. The last force feedback joystick base I was recommended was like $1k. Do you know if the FSSB R3L is compatible with space sims, too? Because I would seriously consider upgrading to Virpils if that's the case.
@@billywashere6965 the R3L is awesome; however, to avoid any confusion, it's a force-sensing base and not force feedback. Force-sensing here means it measures the pressure the user applies to the grip and then translates that into an appropriate digital displacement in the game. The stick doesn't move more than a few millimeters; it's the force that you apply that matters.
A force feedback stick is very different and gives the user mechanical perturbations when certain input is applied or certain events happen in the game.
I think force sensing is better.
@@Vortex31415 Good explanation. I've been using the R3L lightening for a few years now and it is indeed awesome once you dial in the parameters that work best for you within DCS. I really appreciate the ability to change the feel for different aircraft.
@@Vortex31415 That totally makes sense. Thanks for explaining that.
That explains why the R3L is still reasonably priced and the actual force feedback sticks are as expensive as they are.
Cheers.
Can confirm the FSSB is a good choice, and might come closer at least.
BABE WAKE UP!! C.W. Lemoine just dropped a new DCS video!!! 😍😍👏👏
You hit the greatest boom op of all time! Contact with the sighting door closed. 8:39
WOOOO Always happy to see more DCS content
I set up a shaker system using transducer pucks under my throttle and stick (nothing on my seat yet as I'm building my own seat). I'm not a pilot, but I know from autocross and track days how important that seat-of-plants feedback is when it's not there while playing auto racing sims. It's a huge help having those physical cues giving you an idea of what the plane is doing, even if it is rather basic.
I've tried that, but the transducers made the hall sensors go crazy 🙄
There is an FFB stick base for about 800 dollars the VPForce that works with the Warthog.
Yeah 800 is a lot, but it's the LRIP by a small one man start-up and it's about 700 less than the Brunner stick.
And it's DirectX compatible.
Great to see you back in DCS.
Unfortunately this High Aspect BFM instant action mission for Viper is broken in DCS since MT or a bit earlier (I mean your opponent just flew straight and did nothing). Thanks for the AAR: it amazes me how real-world Viper pilot naturally does what takes a lot of practice to master from your regular DCS player. It reminds me couple of videos with real-world Navy pilots landing on a carrier in DCS. I do realize that it's just a game and much more factors come in to play in the real world, but still many years of training and professional experience mean a lot. Thank you for your service and for the great content!
Gotta love that fighter pilot sense of humor! 🤠
So glad to see you back in DCS, made sure to throw a like on the video to do my part.
The DCS medal system is hilarious. I got the CMOH for something silly like that mission. Microprose got this right back in the 80's with Gunship and Stealth Fighter.
Great that theres another microprose sim player besides me 🤙
I played the hell out of Nighthawk 2.0 when I was a kid, and still play once in a while. I know the manual nearly in and out for that particular game. Also, I had M1 Tank Platoon. I'm thinking of giving that a revisit.
@@SeaWasp I played Gunship on the C64 - the cassette version. It took a while to get in the air ;)
@@SeaWasp M1 Tank Platoon was great. Also F-15 Strike Eagle, Silent Service, Red Storm Rising, Airborne Ranger. They made the best sim games back then. Their final real sim, Falcon 4.0 is still going strong today and even has VR support.
@@barryrodgers3039 and the new microprose recently reaquired
@@SeaWasp You are not alone.. i flew a lot of the Microprose sims back in the 90s and well into de 2000s as i couldnt run Falcon 4 very well, flew a lot of F-15III and Fleet defender
Thank you for your service !
Please do a comparison vs BMS. I guess you're the most competent person out there to make this happen. There's no other person I know (on yt) who could potentially make this. The problem with BMS is a obscure way to install and configure it but I bet there will be a LOT of people who will help you with that part. You may even contact me and I'd be glad to help you or point to someone who can help. Notable thing, BMS now supports VR. Butter smooth compared to DCS :E
Butter smooth cause it could run on a Playstation 2.
The new downloader and updater is much easier to use than the old method of installing about 5 different downloads :)
I don't play BMS much, but the F16 feels better to fly in BMS, less twitchy.
@@_Jake.From.Statefarm_ and yet could actually simulate a real war with an accurate depiction of weapons that DCS lacks.
@@gotanon9659 Lol for one aircraft... Not too hard when all you have to do is worry about one flight model. Let me know when you can accurately multirole an a tomcat, eagle, hind, and Apache... The f-18 in BMS is dogshit lol.. the viper and it's dynamic campaign is the only thing that bms does well and it's had 30 years to get there...
The thing is, we need these "Sim checks" because often there are things where those of us who do not have access the real airframe and may never get access to it, may wonder if behaviour X is "simism" or if really happens.
An example that we got answered recently regarding a 777, if you during flight pull the fuel control and shut down an engine, and then flip it back to RUN right off the bat, the engine would fairly quickly restart itself.
Something I thought was "simism" because it didn't seem realistic, but it has happened for an example.
Great to see you back in DCS mate.
Hey Mover! Now that you are back into flying stuff, why don't you give a chance to Falcon BMS? The graphics won't blow you away, but now it has VR and the flying model is rather different than the one in DCS.
*All* the correct sounds took me back to my crew chief days on the Block 40s at Hill AFB.
You should try the Falcon BMS F-16
The pitch up might be the autopilot altitude hold switch being on. At least, that is the behavior I see when I leave it on and start pulling the jet b/c it does not auto-disconnect
Betting you know this but worth a look
Thanks for the information! During the instant action your altitude hold was on which is why the jet was fighting you.
You should ask if the FSSB-R3L MKII folks could loan you a unit. I was always curious how realistic it is.
Yay your back in DCS !!!
Great Job on the AR! I only yelled "Back 4" once 🤘🤘
Bleed feels like there's too much drag. I'd be curious if you've ever flown BMS blk 50? Would be really neat to see your take on a comparison between the 2 FMs in a clean config like you did here. Not to rag on one sim vs another just to comment on which feels more like what you flew. Since both are in active development there's plenty of areas that can still be improved.
Great video. I was thinking about getting the WinWing F-16 EX Throttle eventually.
Still love the dog picture ! Good to hear from you .
I hated the Warthog joystick effort so I bought a Virpil VPC Warbird base and moved the upper Warthog "stick" part to the Virpil base. So much improvement.
That’s what I have.
Which springs do you use?
As a life long flight sim lover and low hour single engine pilot irl they are games, of the simulator genre for sure. Good fun though. RealSimulator FSSB R3 base or WinWings Orion 2 MFSSB. The feel is night and day with the F16 in dcs with the pressure sensitive base vs spring bases. Those early training fights with wags the ai are dumb and just there as easy target practice. Thank you for another great video!
Hope to see way more Mover DCS contents
Very interesting stuff! Thanks a lot! Greetings from switzerland.....
Great video, thank You sir! Recommend the FSSB-R3L MKII “ULTRA” base for Your stick which gives You realistic F-16 stick movement and resistance. Havent seen the AI so Pacifistic before...
With tankin (even with that little disconnect) one can just see, kinda immediatly, you are a real ex f-16 pilot. Very nice to watch when somebody gets those things by hearth. 👌
At least the tanker lights work. Huh? I must have my monitor contrast too low. I think I saw the left side strip for a second. Glad it works for you. :)
The Instant Action mission you're using is for very beginning pilots, it helps to learn shooting when the bandit is straight and level. Try the next mission afterwards, those bandits will fight back after the merge.
I love reminding people that I fly pixel planes in Dang Crash Simulator.
The next mission after is 2 v 1. They used to fight back IIRC.
@@CWLemoine just met Capt. Aimee ‘Rebel’ Fiedler and the Viper Demo Team. Awesome group of outstanding people.
@@CWLemoine I checked, turns out it is the previous mission, not the follow on instant action mission.
I got that old TM Cougar. Serves fine and fits the module. Didn't get the feel until hall sensors from Honeywell installed. Pressure sensors on stick would be great too but TM doesn't make those sticks anymore. DCS module still seems power weird but in any case simmers like to fly it since BMS. Its fun and capable bird in real. Has a good record worldwide even for Thunerbirds. Very small machine but it can take a lot in the air. Its an icon. Glad to hear DCS is close.
If you want real competition, jump on some MP server. Things are crazy out there. From high speed gunzo to seasonal campaigns with lot of great pilots worldwide. No ranks there.
Something about Track Ir. It can and will lead you to think you have the stutters, micro stutters, inconsistent frame rates. Things like the distance or in my case even a little ambient light can affect its tracking. I've seen people spend a lot of time tweaking their system forgetting all about Track Ir. Many even brush it off and say "I checked it" and keep on. If in doubt. TURN IT OFF and then experiment. If you have made adjustments definitely use a STOCK profile to test.
I can't wait for you and Ray to try F15E when she is released!
10:28 thanks for the disclaimer
After fiddling with WarBRD base and Warthog stick for quite some time and trying out different spring configurations I kinda gave up. The stick is so heavy that you must use heavy springs which makes a problem when you get close to the full deflection.
Now I have a VPC MongoosT CM3 Base with soft springs and clutch set so that the stick slowly returns to the center and there's just a little bounce if you let it go at full deflection. Everything is easier to control because you need much less force to move the stick.
Those pilot director indicator (PDI) lights are hard as hell to keep working.
That 4090 is dope. You got a great rig. I was thinking of upgrading my CPU and GPU soon. Got a Ryzen 5 2600 and Nvidia 1660ti for now.
Ive been complaining for years how bad the energy bleed is on the f16. The developer sticks with their data sheets more than multiple real life pilots opinion.
Good to see you noodling in DCS again, Mover, and risking the wrath of the DCS nerds. Fun video!
Cosider the virpil mongoose base that has stiffer springs and shorter throw and now even a damper, I find it very intuitive for the viper.
I absolutely love how you said 'I am a war criminal'.
Now try falcon bms😊
I like how Betty called Bingo state after your wings were shot off. 😂. Technically correct
Yeah the quick start missions need some editing. You can go into mission editor and make the AI respond better to your presence for the HABFM sortie. I know you have better things to do though. Cool to see you in DCS again Mover.
you would need to use force sensing stick. makes a huge difference
You should watch the ELI21 DCS Cinematic, which sounds not that great but it's actually really well recorded and edited. With the subtitles (you can't easily tell what they say) it also makes sense what the tactics were intended to be. Overall, it's just great and you'll probably find some things to comment on, explain or generally talk about.
Falcon BMS 4.36 is even more faithful to the F-16 flight model. Try it.
4.37 even so and has VR :). I'd love to hear Movers opinion, once he'd try some flying, a/a refuel, BFM and other stuff in BMS, but I doubt it's gonna happen anytime soon
What do you think about the adverse yaw at slow speeds while landing? (If you roll hard-ish at low speeds, the nose yaws left and right)
Awesome stuff
Was that the high aspect BFM instant action mission? I've never seen it behave like that before but it's been a while since I ran it so I wonder if they made some changes...
Hi Mover, good to see ya around flying :). LOL at the tanker comment, it didn't help with learning how to do a/a refuel when this sucker did it every time I was in precontact pos. I thought just AI in sims can be such a prick, but it seem I was wrong, naive me :D. Anyways, awesome flying, real skills in the work. Something, we desk jocks can only dream of.
Did you ever considered force sensing base for Warthog, lots of people said this is totaly different experience for flying Viper.
BTW +1 on suggestion to try Falcon BMS. It's excellent F-16 sim and it got VR support recently. Didn't try latest release yet (hardware issues) but some say with latest update AI got a bit more competent in BFM. I know, time constraints and so on, but if you'll ever be in a mood to do some Viper flying in a sim, that's the one to take it on a spin. I'm too really curious about your opinion.
Great to see you in DCS again. Quick question for VR users: It is that jittery/jumpy in the headset as well?
No. In headset it is much smoother. The jumpy video is typically only in screen mirroring.
I still remember the don't f up ahole when you were refueling. DFUA, down forward up and away. Shit works 😂
TOMCATS good stuff think its as good as it can be, I build my own BFM missions with the editor as instant action is pretty weird. In that style though I gotta dodge the AI guns on the merge as they love to pilot snipe you. Jet is still Early Access with like you said public info sooo it is what it is.
Do you have a curvature set up for pitch roll yaw and throttle? If you set a curvature to 20-25 you may find it easier to make fine adjustments
VRFlightSimGuy has been impressed with the motion control rigs. I wonder how that would fill in for you for the missing “seat of the pants”.
Very interesting to hear your comments on DCS and the F-16! Maybe you can try PVP next time. Or multiplayer PVE.
I don't think he'll ever release a video doing BVR PVP, to avoid (accidentally) revealing any classified information
I played F16 Fighting Falcon in the 90s on WIN98.
The graphics improved a little
You said you don't like the track rate of the velocity indicator. From video tapes, I've seen the velocity tracker updating a lot slower, to be readable. I've also seen the elevation lines update faster. In DCS, everything updates at 20 hz, but I think IRL the velocity indicator (and other numbers) is supposed to be around 5 hz, while the rest is supposed to be around 50-60hz. What was the Block 42 like?
The AI in the instant action missions might’ve had their task changed. If its set to intercept, they don’t engage until after the merge. Of course you can’t change that in Instant Action.
Nice vídeo!!! Thanks
DCS videos are always fun. I can see the appeal of taking it seriously, but I prefer watching videos by people who don't take themselves too seriously.
you gotta review the Hornet!
I'd be curious what you would think of the Winwing F16 stick with force sensing effects, just 5mm movement, the rest is force.
WHat are your DCS graphic settings for VR, and which VR headset are you running with sir?
If I may suggest, would it be possible to get @The Afterburn Podcast and you on a DCS run? Would also like to see what he thinks of the set up on DCS, as you are quite aware, he was the Viper demo pilot for a bit.
Had me at "non standard maneuver" !!
Love the F16 man!
Don’t let Gonky get you slow when y’all fight! 😂
You tanked like a drunken Scotsman fumbling with his key in the front door after a stag night out with a kebab in one hand. Made me feel better about my efforts. Love the channel.
I love my Alienware R15 and the 4090 graphics card My VR experience with the HP Reverb is a lot of fun. I like the F-16, I just hate seeing on my chaff/flares vanish so quickly I've been flying the Tomcat a lot lately just for fun. Hope to wing up with you guys online some time
That thing must get so hot, Dell really need to ditch those cases for something modern with actual airflow :)
@@MongooseTacticool no, it runs very cool with the air flow holes in the side. After following the R13 tear down with Gamers Nexus, I was very leery. My R15 is running very cool and I really love how it flies in DCS
Really cool channel ! Tell me, have you tried Falcon BMS as well? I wonder which would you rate as more realistic. Falcon BMS has much lower graphics though...
I couldn't tell the difference in the airspeed indicators. Can someone guide me on what I'm supposed to be looking at to spot the difference myself?
Now now, Mr. C. W. Lemoine, I made the mistake of calling DCS a game in the comment section on youtube and took a lot of "flak" - getting told its a SIMULATION, so I ended up just deleting my post. I play DCS as a game - I am doing it because I love airplanes and I want to have fun. I do not pretend I am a fighterpilot and never have, as my little pink butt is not on the line. So I do stupid stuff sometimes as at the end of the day if it aint fun, I am doing something else instead. Thank you for your video and your input on DCS.
Simulations are games. People play them to enjoy themselves and roleplay. It doesn’t matter how real they are. They are still games.
@@OVERSPEEDsos un capo