Fighter Pilots Play DCS: F-16 vs F/A-18 Dogfight
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2024
- Gonky (former US Navy F/A-18 Pilot) flies the F/A-18C against Mover (former Air Force F-16 Pilot) in the F-16C using DCS World. Register for the Folds of Honor Fight For Honor 2021 DCS Tournament: fohevents.org/FightforHonor2021/
Support Folds of Honor: www.foh.org
My nerd setup:
ASUS ROG MAXIMUS XIII Z590 Motherboard
Intel 11900K CPU
128GB DDR4 3600 RAM
RTX 3090 FE
HP Reverb G2
Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle
VPC Warbrd Stick
Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals
F-16 vs F/A-18 0:00
Fight For Honor DCS Tournament Announcement 0:14
Pilot Introductions 1:01
Takeoff/Departure 2:12
Fight 1 (Butterfly Set) 4:14
Fight 2 (Abeam Set) 11:28
Fight 3 (Butterfly Set) 15:18
Drag Race 17:55
Fight 4 (Role swap Butterfly) 20:26
Closing Comments 26:20
#F16vsF18
#DCS
#FighterPilots
Views presented are my own and do not represent the views of DoD or its Components. - เกม
Check out Gonky's side of things: th-cam.com/video/WuCRYSEPLvI/w-d-xo.html
Thanks Brother Lemonie for sharing a wonderful DCS video.... Love and respect from Pakistan... 🇵🇰🇵🇰❤️
Long live PAF..... 👍👍👍
The second you got in a rate-fight on the deck I smelled trouble. The F-16 in DCS is widely suspected of having far inferior performance in this compared to the genuine article. If you feel like reaching out to ED as a SME it may be beneficial to the model.
Edit: Just saw the drag race and knew the outcome before it started. The widely accepted way to win in an F-16 if a F-18 tries to drag you into a rate fight is not to, i.e. extend and recommit. I haven't heard as many F-16 virtual pilots complain about the F-16's acceleration since it benefits them, lol.
...am I imagining it or does your voice tighten up like you're "Hicking" through heavy G's sometimes?
These dog fights make me wonder why the millitary has yet to build fighters that shoot missiles backward.
Is landing a fighter jet in dcs as hard as in real life
I'm a retired sheet metal repair guy and spent most of my years fixing F-15, F-16, F-4, F-111, T-38 and so on. It's fun to watch actual pilots fly, fight, and BS. The pilots would spend all day braking jets and we spend all night fixing them and getting them ready for the next days missions. Didn't know how much fun I was having back than. Some of the best days of my life.
@G E T R E K T probably enjoying his retirement
Thank You for Your service Sir.!
Crew Chief on F-15's and 16's. We bitched and griped, but would give anything to go back and do it again.
@@59thfsaviation79 Nav Systems for me on A10's 23rd Tac Fighter Wing and RF4C's 363 Tac Fighter Wing. What you talking about, we all wish we could go back. I'm 61 now.
@@silent1967 Hey brother, just turned 69 in October.
“Even if you’re gonna lose, suck with confidence”
- C. W. Lemoine
Implementing this advice into my life right away
Words to live by
This is probably the first DCS video I’ve seen where the pilot verbally expects painful G’s and it’s super refreshing
Haha, Longshot occasionally sounds like he's pulling Gs lol.
Lol 7:27
Now we need an F-104 vs F-104 dogfight video. Expected winner: Ground.
*Lockheed
Happy birthday to the GROUND!
LOL it's one circle, one biiiiiiiig circle....
@@caractacustube Actually, the F-104 had better sustained turn performance than contemporary MiG-21s. Small wings, sure, but also better thrust-to-weight and better thrust-to-drag than the contemporary (early) MiG-21s.
@@bronco5334 Yeah I fly an F104C in Warthunder and it actually turns as hard as you'd want with high energy. The problem is that the aircraft doesn't turn very well below 650mph lol!
“He’s in a flat spin, headed out to sea!” - Mover after shooting Gonky
Mover: "Have you ever been in a rate fight with a Viper like this?"
Gonky: "Not winning. Not winning, that's for sure."
Eagle Dynamics: "The Viper is accurate to the records we have."
Hornet in dcs also kind of out rates everything
@@pandabanana2593
I've flown both in DCS, but mostly Hornet. A properly handled 16 should out rate a Hornet. Much lighter plane.
@@icecold9511 and a whole bunch of folks have shown the hornet to get over 21 degrees a second. It out rates almost everything in dcs.
@@icecold9511 Not true below 20,000 feet. The F-16 is a magnificent machine but the Hornet will outrate it below 10,000 feet. So Sayeth The Holy E-M diagrams...and real live pilots who've fought those training dogfights. The F-16 is at its best above 20,000 feet.
*chuckles in Tomcat*
DCS player: you’re doing it wrong, turn on JHMCS…
Real USN and USAF pilots: do you have any hot single female relatives over 21?
😂
Lmfao
DCS players telling real pilots they're doing it wrong was almost as cringeworthy as a COD player telling a real US Soldier that he's a coward from suffering PTSD after Afghanistan
Glad to hear you call Gonky out for flying with a WSO. Must be sitting on his lap in that single seat Hornet. I thought I heard the WSO right after takeoff.
Let's just pretend Gonky was in an F/A-18D : )
@@pogo1140 [jeremy clarkson voice] ...or B...... or B....
Gotta love the Makos! We see them over the beach all the time. My hometown! MIami, FL.
Very cool content! I like the DCS gunfights and hearing formally trained fighter pilots talk. My family has had many pilots in the armed forces and I want to thank you both for your service. That fighter pilot mentality applies to more than just flying. Great channel Mover
EFPD!
Umm... no one gonna talk about that butter smooth landing by Mover?
Yeah, I know. Looked pretty tidy didn't it. I would image he wouldn't have much author over the speed with such a steep approach in a slippery jet.
Yeah! That was so cool to watch. He thought he was pretty much in an emergency and slicked it on a sharp approach. That was awesome!
Loved it! The DCS dogfights are always fun to watch with the commentary!
Love hearing you guys have fun. Will be excited for the tournament.
Been waiting for this.🙌 you guys playing together is the funniest stuff I have seen in awhile.
Guys thanks for sharing these videos with us. 10-20 years back only could find Discovery channel pilot stories with some old clips. This is just magic.
Love videos like this. Not so much because it is aviation/DCS themed but just having fun with friends and supporting a good charity
Compared to other TH-camrs. you did something I really wanted for a long time and MAD props for defeating the TH-cam compression with it.
It was the nice arrow pointing at Gonky / Bandit, allowing us to know where he is, especially when TH-cam tries to mask him with the terrain!
this just shows how much work is needed on the flight model of the F16. great video :D
It’s great of Gonky to take time from his busy schedule to help promote a worthy cause.
This was a lot of fun, do more of these!
Was cheering and calling throughout this set. Great work, very entertaining.
Happy Veterans Day, SIR.. As a former Crew Chief, you guys make me laugh and brings back old memories hanging with the Jockey’s.. I appreciate everything you and Gonky have done.. {A-7d, A-10, F-117, and KC-135R, Crew Chief} Thanks again and Blessings, “Clear Skies, and Soft Landings”..
Thanks for the fun content! I just sent in my donation, and may try joining the tournament in a Mig-21 for the laughs. Can’t wait!
This is awesome. I just realized I wasn't subscribed although I thought I had hit the button long ago. So now I am for sure subscribed. Love all the content. Fighter pilot content or otherwise. It's all good stuff man.
That was extremely fun! I enjoyed it greatly, thanks!
Great vid and gameplay. Most impressive thing was seeing Movers flame out landing while chating about the next fights rules.
My thought exactly.
Holy I am impressed! I can really tell you guys got trained for years. Really good fights!
Man this is actually pretty thrilling! Thanks for sharing!
Mover, I missed this live but I'm watching now. Donation sent. Good on you and Gonky!
It wasn't live. You didn't miss anything. Thanks for the donation!
@@CWLemoine Good people, good cause.
Truly enjoy watching two real fighters going at it. Well done, Gents!!
I've been waiting to see Gonky give it a shot! Looking forward to seeing more after some practice.
That probably won’t happen. Gonky doesn’t have that kind of time
@@CWLemoine understandable!
Mover, that was a superb SFO approach, and landing. You were chatting like it was no big deal, and for you it wasn't.
Great hands man
Love this so much! Sims have come so far since the old-school sims I started with like Chuck Yeager's Advanced Flight Trainer and Falcon 1.0 on our first PC when I was a kid.
Loved Falcon 1-3.0
I would like to see Mover dogfight Growling Sidewinder in Viper or Hornets.
To make it even more interesting, you should dogfight in A-10s.
I dont think he would like it that much, real pikot dont enjoy dcs thst much, and as you can see he wasn't happy with the f16 flight model at all lol
pro gamer vs real pilot
GS is still hiding from the FOH DCS Challenge.
@@cup_and_cone You’re right about that, I wonder what’s holding him back.🧐
I mean he did fight a Rafael Pilot in F/A-18s and Mirages.
This and so much
That was a great video man, thanks.
this really illustrated how the f-16 isn't properly modeled in dcs, still a really cool video! Would love to have your input with the development team over at Eagle Dynamics - I'm not a part of them but I know that there are real pilots in contact with the team so as to make the flight model as realistic as possible.
The E-M diagrams tell the tale. The F-16 SHOULD lose a rate fight on the deck against a Hornet. This is why I fly DCS when I want to look at pretty graphics, but I fly Falcon BMS 4.35 when I want to fly ACCURATELY modelled F-16s. BMS is the superior sim if fidelity to the real aircraft's performance is what you seek.
@@Turboy65 you sure the F-16 should lose a rate fight against a Hornet?
@@tharrrrrrr It's well known that the F-16 rates faster when above 20,000 feet but down on the deck the Hornet makes it around the circle faster, both planes being flown to their limits. Check the published E-M diagrams in their respective technical publications. I like the F-16 better and if there was one aircraft on earth that I would pick to fly ONCE it'd be the F-16, but if it came down to a dogfight with a Hornet, I'd be smart to stay high and fast. The Hornet WILL outrate it down on the deck.
@@Turboy65 The pilots seemed confused when the hornet out-rated the viper down on the deck, so maybe they'd never fought against it at such a low altitude.
@@Turboy65 Im confused by your comment. You say that what is seen matches the EM diagram, but then say that Falcon BMS is the only really good F-16 sim. You seem to be saying that the DCS flight model is mostly correct, but then suggest that it isn't. Please clarify.
This was so much fun to watch. Awesome sauce!
This was awesome! Thx Mover! Hopefully ED fixes the Viper FM.
loved the fight, can't wait for the debrief :)
Wow, I really liked the way you handled the landing in the 2nd fight!
Suck with confidence is my motto lol. Always very entertaining to see you two take to the virtual skies. BFM Gonky with the Tomcat next. I also think it would be pretty cool to see Gonky take us through a proper Case 1 when he gets better at DCS.
Pretty cool to see two masters of their craft go head to head
Greate video. You guys seems to have a lot of fun with this.
That was fun to watch. Hope you guys can do it again after the Viper gets its flight model updated.
That first gun kill was beautiful. Perfect deflection shot set up.
This was hilarious. Good stuff!
Thanks for your guys service dude!
"Watch the mountains." You guys are hilarious. Looking forward to the debrief...
I love when you have Gonky onboard!
This was great to watch
Gonky: "oh he couldn't get nose on for that shot, better reverse my turn so he can get another chance!"
As a member of MFE... Thanks for overspeeding the jet ;)
Love the video's, keep them coming sir.
The Viper flight model is way better now! Definitely worth a rematch.
Great fun, guysI Thanks!
Wohoo! The DCS event of the year!
LETS GET IT ON!!!
Mover thanks for the channel love all your videos, and thank you for your service happy veterans day
cool video. just had my upt board interview for ang. hope to be flying vipers soon!
Gonky may have lost but some of those moves in the hornet were pretty awesome to see. He fought the alpha fight!, and I'm sure there was no paddle involved at all!! Great watch, thanks guys. I'm going to donate and enroll for the tournament!
Awesome indeed!
The best part for me was when he realized the Hornet *easily* out rates the Viper (even without using the paddle) and subsequently committed to, and absolutely decimated him in, the 2-circle fight.
@@mortlet5180 Not just the rate... I think that might have also shown the work that the viper needs still.
@@Mark_Point No ED has already adressed and fixed the F-16's g-rate control in the latest update, while still keeping the hard limit of 9.0 G's (which limits how fast the FCS will let you turn, even with plenty of airspeed and the stick pulled back all the way).
As far as I understand, their main development focus for now (just looking at the F-16) is mainly concerned with multiplayer game balance, with the biggest changes expected to come to the F-16's radar, specifically sidelone clutter and sensor noise.
This should finally bring the Viper's maximum radar detection range (for a fighter-sized target and when flying at high altitudes over terrain) down to the ~30nm goal, although I am unsure if this will be the same over the sea as well.
Furthermore, it will give adversaries the ability to fly "under the radar" of the F-16, similar to how the reworked AIM-120C AMRAAM's radar seeker now also works, when the target is flying close to the ground (i.e. Increased sensor noise resulting in less accurate target parameters; A chance to lose the lock entirely, in the ground clutter, even when there is a large closure speed relative to the target, placing it well outside the 'notch'; Also a degraded INS guidance when tracking low flyers.).
All of that being said, I still think increased drag or decreased engine performance is likely also a high priority, as it will acheive multiple goals at once: It will severely limit the ability of Viper pilots to exploit the PN persuit guidance laws that the majority of DCS missiles still use.
It will also make kinetically defeating missiles much less of an option, without ED having to rework the missiles' performance or guidance logic. Taken together, slowing down the Viper would not only allow for a more balanced BVR fight, but would also reinforce the close range 'notch meta' that they like.
@@mortlet5180 Um... there is no such thing as "balance" in dcs. At all. And there never will be. They have repeated this 15000x over the past how many years. When the eurofighter comes out, all "balance" will be thrown out the window in mp for both bvr and bfm anyways...
@@jonnyj. Agree! This DCS is about the aircraft and not "balancing" for gameplay
Fight’s ON!
Seeing 2 real pilots at it on dcs,you 2 show regular dcs gamers how intense dog fights can be
Hell yeah! Time to do it all again! Can’t wait for you to make fun of my landings again
Awesome, thanks C.W!
The fights was great. But the Min fuel landing was just bliss to watch ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Mover and Gonky videos never fail to entertain. Fun times as always.
Hearing Gonky in the F-16 was like listening to Rooster in the back of the F-14
So much fun to watch these guys pulling Gs and saying this is gonna heart ( body muscle memory kicks in). These guys risked theyr lives every time they sat in cockpit of jets.
We are going to get a set up for sure - this is just addictive - digging your channel - we binged a good deal of your content and now watching these. The Viper should rate better we thought than the F18. One circle the F18 ... We think would win.
GREAT VIDEO GUY! ENJOYED IT VERY MUCH. TRY MIG-29 WITH F-18 AND F-16
It seems like the Viper is still underperforming with regards to nose authority/turn rate. You should absolutely have been able to pull 9G and be _accelerating_ (if you wanted to go above your optimal turn rate for a rate fight lol) in that Viper. I understand that ED is aware of the problem and is working on it.
why does everyone assume 9G accelerate is a fact?
if your at 9g and 2 degree's of AoA you'll accelerate like a rocket.
if your at 9G and 28 degree's of AoA you'll stall out.
reduce to the G's to 2 and stay at 28 degree's of AoA and your still gonna stall out.
the Alpha is locking you out of your acceleration and nose authority NOT your g.
@@TheRocketdrive
How, exactly, does one attain 9G at 2° AoA? G loads are most commonly a factor when an aircraft is turning, or in any way altering its flight path. As for '9G and accelerating,' I simply repeat what I have heard other Viper pilots in DCS say, which is that the F-16 model in the game is severely underperforming. The IRL F-16 was one of the first negatively stable jets that featured a digital FCS, or Fly By Wire FCS. It was designed for agility and speed and had a thrust to weight ratio higher than 1:1. Whether or not it can accelerate while turning at 9 G is immaterial; the Viper should not have problems with nose authority or agility, and should have an advantage in energy recovery over most (not all,
_most_ ) aircraft in DCS.
@@skyhorseprice6591 do you know what AoA or angle of attack is and how it correlates to drag?
@@TheRocketdrive
AoA refers to the angle (measured against 0° AoA perfect level flight) at which an aircraft's lifting surfaces (wings, strakes, Canards, basically the entire aircraft) attacks the air. As aircraft turn or climb, in AoA increases as the nose moves. Obviously, the higher the AoA, the greater the drag, particularly in delta wing jets & delta/canard planforms. This is why the Mirage is known for its rapid deceleration during high AoA maneuvers. That big delta wing acts like a giant airbrake, especially during rapid G onset maneuvers with around 25°/second or more turn rates. Generally speaking, drag increases as AoA increases, while airspeed decreases as AoA increases.
It requires a jet with a T/W ratio over 1:1 to allow acceleration, or even maintaining the same airspeed, at extreme AoA, due to the tremendous drag incurred by extreme maneuvers found in dogfights.
I've seen IRL Viper pilots who fly in DCS state that they should be able to maintain a 9G turn in full burner and be able to either indefinitely maintain the jet's ideal airspeed for the highest, most efficient AoA, or to actually accelerate. Acceleration in Max G turns, of course is dependant upon altitude, external temperature conditions, humidity, and engine efficiency under the current weather conditions at the time of engagement. The whole point was, pretty much all Viper pilots agree that the F-16 in DCS is kinematically underperforming.
* Also, extreme G loads like 9G are always the result of extreme course deviations, whether that be rapid onset G from quick turns, or from extreme and violent aircraft oscillations found in post- departure regimes. I cannot think of a single example of any aircraft loading up 9G while performing a 2°/sec turn. G load is _always_
related to deviation from linear straight flight, or to rate of acceleration. We do not possess any aircraft that can accelerate quickly enough to produce 9G in linear acceleration. The cause of this is simple Newtonian physics, ie inertia. Objects in motion will continue to move in a straight line unless acted upon by an outside force. The G load pilots feel is due to the action of control surfaces producing deviations in airflow causing a turn in which inertia wants the pilot's body and the aircraft to go straight, but the aerodynamic forces from the surfaces produce a turn. The higher the airspeed & the tighter the turn, the greater the G.
@@skyhorseprice6591 and that should perfectly explain why "muh plaen dun turn at 9g so is wrong!" is lazy and incorrect critism. the G loading doesnt really matter as much as AoA onset in the turn. If people claimed the 16 was riding/took on too much AoA too fast for it's turn then I could see it, but everyone complaining about Gloading being the problem is like complaining that the F18 is underperforming in BVR because of it's paint color.
happy to see you went back to the right path ;)
the landing without fuel was a real stunner 😮
Mover: "Won't be talking specific #s. Don't want to give away anything classified"
World of Tanks players: .......
I can’t believe FOH is going to be 3 years now 😱 time flies so fast.
Oh man, I love it when they reverse their turns.
Cant wait for the tacview
Suck with confidence that's great! Perfect philosophy love it
This is the stuff I really love....you can hear movers breathing change and he's doing his high G techniques
No I'm not 😂
Fun :) Thanks guys!
I have no real experience like you two. But I thought there were certain points where you would want to extend to regain your potential energy. But you both kept turning and seemed like both dumping energy until someone got a slight advantage. Love DCS and trying to get better. Old Aces high player where each aircraft and understanding it's advantages/disadvantages(e.g. Energy vs. turn). Thanks for the great videos just trying to learn more DCS from pros like you to get better. Thanks.
That's some slick flyin gents🤙
Good fight guys
SAR-H pilot here… I get that this is a simulation but has given me a great appreciation for fighter pilots… I could never pull those angles or even see where the bogey is.
Hearing Gonky in hysterics always makes me smile.
More! More! More! Perhaps together a few missions in F/A18.
This is awesome
"flying over this city is not a good idea!"
"for the hostiles?"
"no, for the graphics!"
Loool
Fantastic!!!! Tank and Trap's next time guys!!!!
I love how we can see the difference between you and other gamers. You track the enemy plane at all times instead of jarring 3rd/1st person camera changes. You can tell this guy knows about air combat
Oftentimes, dogfight servers in DCS disable 3rd person cameras. All you can do is track with your head.
Well most DCS servers are noob servers with 3rd and fallow bandit camera like Grawling server, but if you play DDCS server you only have first person and bac in the days you didnt even had f10, pure instrument nav or magic nav
I hosted this match privately. No public servers.
@@CWLemoine i know, otherwise the entire server would be flying around you guys documenting the event and spamming the screen shoot key hehe, i was just pointing that most public servers are casual servers with external cams ON
@@CWLemoine There is a way to save the track file of the mission, then replay it so you can get external views. When you see the other channels replaying dogfights in third person that is what they are doing, they dont have extra people getting shots live
Good Fight 👌🏻🥊🥊
Great video, super entertaining and informative. Question for you CW, in RL do you ever hear that stall indicator when you are low speed?
I’d love to see 4 of you go old school Battle of Britain dogfight style, 2 ME-109’s v 2 Spitfires.
I liked the landing at 14:00 the most :D
Love to see this repeated with the updated flight model! :)
Fun video!
Cannot wait for the debrief 😀
Looks like Gonky did a great 'acting' job of making the host of the show look like an ace. ha ha 😉 No one will ever know which of you is better, because I'm sure you're both probably "sandbagging". But it was fun to watch!
Another idea for a different sort of competition with different scenery...In F-18s/-14s...see how many 3-wire's you can get on the carrier. Best of 5 or best of 7? That wouldn't be too boring, would it? You could edit it. I'd watch.
Rooster DID SAY “it’s not the plane it’s the pilot sir”..!
Good show ole chap..! ✊🏻🇬🇧💙
Amazing. Really amazing. Watching in pilots POV with seasoned real world 'top guns' dog-fighting it out, using real military slang - wow!
Makes me want to try DCS too! 😃
What does "I am already no joy" mean??
Lol that first merge was sick