I hate that Jon was named Aegon in the show, had Elia and her children suffered not enough, had Lyanna to give him that name? It looks like an heavy insult more to the ones that already were there, would not judge Dorne if they had killed Rhaegar and his new family for this
I think that's because they mixed fAegon's and Jon's plotlines in the series but yeah, really stupid. As if Lyanna didn't know about Prince Aegon. There is no way she named him that.
@@lastquarter3992 I don't think they mixed the plotlines, Jon has basically no plotline in the last season, he's just there so he can kill Dany in the end. I think his name is probably Aegon in the books because if he becomes king in the end, which has been hinted at, it would make him Aegon the Seventh after Young Griff who would be Aegon the Sixth, and we all know the number seven is an important symbol in the ASOIAF series so it seems kind of fitting. I imagine Rhaegar thought that his third child with Lyanna would be a girl called Visenya who would be the third head of the dragon, seeing as he already had Aegon and Rhaenys, and he probably told Lyanna as much: so when Lyanna heard of the deaths of both Aegon and Rhaenys she realized they weren't the other two heads and the child she carried was the Prince That Was Promised so she named him Aegon to fulfil the prophecy. That's my theory, at least.
@@SOFIA-tl2hh if aegon was killed in the sac of KL. Then young Griff CANT BE aegon6th. On the other hand, if young griff is actually aegon6th, then the baby boy who was killed by the Mountain OBV couldn't be Aegon
I hate how people paint Rhaegar as some romantic brave tragic hero. He's not. He doomed his house and took a very young impressionable young woman away from her family and indirectly killed them all.
That certainly COULD be the case, but I don't think we know enough to make that assumption. We don't know how they got from the riverlands to the Tower of Joy or any of the circumstances surrounding the journey. I'm going off the top of my head so I may be off.... but what if Lyanna was in some sort of danger. If he took her to the TOJ for her safety (like a true Knight is supposed to do) but before he gets back to KL, the Mad King has already killed the Starks. He could've been the tragic figure that some perceive him to be.
You know nothing. Blame George Martin for how people view Rhaegar. He wrote him as being a gifted scholar, warrior and musician. Already hard to dislike him on that alone without being a hater. Then you have the fact that his father was a psychopath that most viewed as unfit to rule. As far as this video goes, George himself referred to Rhaegar as a "love sick fool". If the writer says he loved her, then it's a non debatable fact. The fool aspect goes with what you're saying but you seem more harsh about it than necessary. Ned Stark was a fool but still loved by pretty much everyone.
It has always bothered me a little that Rhaegar was supposed to be so good an honorable but then he went a dissed is wife and children the way he did. And yes, would it have killed Lyanna to drop her family a note letting them know she was OK. However, I love this series so much I a willing to forgive a lot.
Rhaegar (and Elia) deserves a marriage of love vs planned by the Mad King just like anyone else, like Lyanna vs being forced to marry Robert. Prophecy for saving the world is greater than getting a divorce to someone you don't love. If he lived does anyone think Elia or their kids would have been mistreated or ignored by Rhaegar? Like nope only care about the third kid? No he at the very least thought all 3 were important, the dragon must have 3 heads. On top of this Elia is from Dorne. There ideas about marriage, lovers, bastards are not the same as the other 6 kingdoms. Lyanna could understand Rhaegars loveless marriage because she was about to be forced into one. Plus with the ones we truly love we may be blinded to their flaws vs Lyanna didn't love Robert solely because of his whoring. She just didn't love him. Because they had to go through with the marriage alone and Robert and Brandon (via Littlefinger I believe) found out too soon and by that time no raven was going to stop the war that was most likely more against the Mad King for most of the rebels than saving Lyanna.
Like same I still don’t understand how people find ways to justify him and lyanna like he was as mad as his father but just a different kind of mad and if lyanna was not in love with Robert like almost every women who is forced to marry in Westeros because he used to whore around why run with a man that was already marry with children ? Like what’s with that logic 🤦🏻♀️ and honestly singing songs to the poor and giving them a few coins to me does not make Rhaegar honorable. He could have done so much more... I always tend to rant when this subject is brought 😂😂🤷🏻♀️ I really dislike him
@@mrvgamingwatching9753 when the targs came to westeros, they settled with the faith/septons and left valyrian culture behind. targs were mostly only allowed to keep doing incest, not have multiple wives. dornish still has their paramour culture, rhaegar doesnt have his polygamy culture anymore because most valyrians left it in valyria, and only aegon the first and maegor had multiple official wives
The conversations between Ser Barristan and Daenerys from the books about her family are some of my favorite. We got a little of it in the show but not much, in fact Daenerys mother was never mentioned on the show and I never understood that. Also Varys knew the mad king and Rhaegar very well but yet they never had a full conversation about him.
Sydni Taylor They couldn't mention Dany having a mentaly healthy parent and then tell her madness is from her "Targaryen genes" or whatever. Ofc I am giving them too much credit of thinking that much in advance
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 lol true they couldn't mention Rhaella because they believe every Targaryen to be evil and insane and yes you're giving them way too much credit
@Andro Santos In addition to this insightful video buy Gray Area (though with a few logical fallacies),may I recommend a video about Rhaegear and Lyanna from the Order Of the Green hand?
Ashara Dayne is her mother, and Jon snow is the REAL Aegon. There is no telling what really went down at the tower of joy. We’ve got all these unreliable narrators and don’t know what to believe. 😆
Ok just a hunch. The dragon already had 3 heads. Rhaghar had a brother and a sister. Prophecy will happen. You cant make them happen, for you. That was his big mistake trying to make the prophecy fit him and he destroyed everything.
He wanted tree kids Rhaenys, Aegon and Visenya the tree Targaryens that conqueror Westeros, the tree dragons heads on the symbol of House Targaryen. Elia Martel was sick and she could't had more children so he took Lyanna, married in secret and he make a baby with her because he thought that she was going to have a girl (Visenya) because he had two kids with Elia (Rhaenys and Aegon) but Lyanna give birth to a boy named Aegon Targaryen and Rhaegar wanted a girl to name her Visenya.
@@itsthatgirl98_ that actually makes sense, so it would be in reverse now, instead of Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya, it's Daenerys and Young griff and if the books follow the book, Jon
@D D the most obvios reason would be that in the prophecy it talks about ice and fire. Lyanna is Ice because she is of the north, of the old Gods, Rhaegar is Fire, because he is the blood of the dragon, of Old Valyria. Lyanna ( Ice) + Rhaegar (fire)= Jon (ice and fire). Also, through this he fulfilled the pact of Ice and Fire. She would have been the most obvious northern female to choose because she was the Daughter of the Warden of the north, if he wanted only a northern female to do this, he could have choose anyone.
@@ricoambro His son did not die. Martin fooled us all. Jon Snow is the real Aegon. They talk about how he has the Dornish look in the books. Lyanna played her part, but Ned had to honor that pact that was made so long ago. Crown Prince/Princess has to be fostered at Winterfell and marry a Stark daughter. The dragons hid their male heirs during war, and Jon was given to
With the amount of chaos he brought upon the kingdom, he had to have at least thought whatever he was doing to her, was more important than the entire seven kingdoms and thousands of dead Westerosi. My theory is he was a pawn of Blood Raven and the children. Like everyone else in this story.
Rhaegar most definitely had a messiah complex. He was obsessive, selfish, and I'd argue that drove him insane. I consider him the Mad Prince. But time will tell if his interpretation of prophecy is valid. Lyanna was a naive girl that fell really hard for the "It was foretold in prophecy!" bit.
Rhaegar was definitely mad! Him thinking he was the promised prince at first and then he felt like it had to be his son Aegon but I guess he felt like it wasnt So he needed to create another. He was so obsessed by prophecy to run off with a young girl who was betrothed to his cousin.
Naive? Lyanna? C'mon, that girl smelled Bobby B's bullshit from a mile away, even when everybody was trying to convince her he was a nice fella. Even Cersei was full of illusions about him.
@@Emy-fv5ny I mean, what bullshit ? It wasn't honestly such a big deal for a man to whore around in Westeros so Lyanna was kind of petty there. Considering that Robert was valiant, handsome, kind and loved her (or at least the idea of her ?), she was more than lucky to have such a great match. Some women had to marry Walder Frey lmao. But then again, she was young and the rebellious kind so I can understand her naivety on the matter.
@@lastquarter3992 It was bullshit, because everybody around her wanted to make her believe he loved, her and he was going to be loyal to her and that was not true. Lucky? How can you be lucky to marry someone you didn't pick? Excuse, are you a female?
I agree! If Rhaegar had actually *trusted* the prophecy he was so obsessed with and done nothing, Daenerys would have been born in a few years, without any deaths or rebellions needed. This is what Dany's vision in the House of the Undying meant. As to why Lyanna never told anyone that she was with Rhaegar of her own will to stop the Rebellion, I see three possibilities: One, she was never told that a civil war was started over her, so didn't realize that any "setting the record straight" was needed. I mean, Rhaegar was so out-of-touch with current affairs that Aerys had to send someone to drag Rhaegar out to fight the war he'd started. Two, she tried to send letters telling everyone to back off, but her messages either never got through, or they weren't believed. Think about it, would Robert's ego have allowed him to accept that he'd been jilted for a hot musician? Three, she actually wanted to leave once she realized a rebellion had started in her name, but Rhaegar refused to allow it because he was fixated on producing his Ice and Fire baby. Were those three Kingsguard knights just there to protect Lyanna, or were they there to keep her from escaping as well? Given how many lines Rhaegar had already crossed to fulfill his precious prophecy would he really have shrugged and let Lyanna go if she'd developed cold feet?
I love evrything about this video, I would just say yes the prophecy is about Danaerys BUT Rhaegar still needed to hook up with Lynna start and war and die to fullfil the prophecy. if Rhaegar did't die and if danny were not exiled she would have never been sold to Khal Drogo she would have never received her bride's gift of dragon eggs from Illyrio and she would have never been in the desparate position to hatch her eggs. yes it happened in an round about way but it needed to happened to put her in that position.
Thank you, great vid. Raeghar seems pretty odd, hardly any friends, playing songs in the place his family died, running off with a teenager. I've wondered how much Lyanna was on board with the prophesy, if we think she's like Arya then I imagine she didn't run away just coz he's so dreamy or whatever.
Every time you said disrespect I saw Mushu yelling at Mulan “dishonor on your house, dishonor on you, dishonor on your cow” I couldn’t stop laughing for five minutes
ned always talked about lyanna in good terms though. and jaime would have nightmares about rhaegar calling out his guilt for killing the mad king. the way ned describes lyanna, this tomboy sister who was skilled with horse riding and the arrow (i think she was described as such) made it seem like lyanna was more pragmatic and "northern-like" to buy into prophecies as intensely as rhaegar did. what if... what if rhaegar wasn't in love with lyanna, but he managed to make her fall for him because he knew that lyanna would have to join him willingly? lyanna seemed like she would fight or die if her dignity was on the line, so if she actually fell in love with the deceitful rhaegar, then at her deathbed / birthing bed, she would make ned promise that their baby (aemon) cannot die by bobby b's wrath? what if lyanna didn't even know anything about a dragon prophecy? like she was just a teen who actually fell for the dashing dangerous prince? jojen and meera also talked about lyanna and rhaegar as a "sad story" while travelling with bran, so in the POV of their dad howland reed (ned's friend who was with him at the tower of joy) lyanna must have been actually in love and died because of it. otherwise, it would not have been a "sad story" that passed down to jojen and meera but rather a story of grave injustice and cruelty if it were kidnapping and rape. howland reed would have known. i think maybe lyanna was duped and rhaegar felt like he had to have a baby with a wolf girl because of the prophecy. and since he didn't have a "bad boy image", the only way to persuade the northern girl was to actually court her in secret. the crowning of "love and beauty" at the tourney was probably his "proposal" to lyanna, and the teenaged lyanna would have been too young to think about honor and duty because her first love had just proposed to her. so she willingly ran away with rhaegar. rhaegar probably knew that there would be bloodshed because he is a prince and he knew enough about politics and all the honor code between the great houses and so he must have known that lyanna may be collateral damage he just needed enough time for the baby to be born at the tower of joy. the only thing he was not fully able to protect was his son (aemon) because he overestimated the capability of his trusted men and underestimated the capability of the north. that's my theory anyway. the reason why rhaegar did this seemingly foolish decision was i think he knew that the mad king would completely snap at any moment and he felt he just had to have the third baby at any cost. lyanna would have been married off to robert if he waited any longer, and that would have made it even more complicated.
Love your analysis! I think Lyanna was tricked by Rhaegar. She was just a 14 year old girl whereas Rhaegar was a 23 year old married man with kids. Lyanna was probably looking for a way out of her betrothal to Robert and jumped at the chance to leave with Rhaegar. She must have naively thought no one would think of it as a big deal as Rhaegar was a prince who theoretically could do anything he wanted to. But I firmly believe Rhaegar wanted to sacrifice Lyanna at the Tower of Joy to birth dragons.
You spoke my mind! This is what I have be saying to years now! Everyone is so ready to jump on her and say that the whole rebellion is her all fault and that she's stupid (Which to me, she doesn't seem like she is since she and Arya share the same personality), without even considering that she was a literal child at the time and could have been manipulated into thinking that he could provide her protection because he's the prince or blackmailed because he knew about her being the Knight of the laughing tree
Or Marin has tricked all of us because none of it adds up except Jon is the real Aegon. Son of Elia Martell and Rhagar Targaryen and just like in the books when Jon switched those babies, that’s exactly what happened in Jon’s case. We don’t know if Ned is having false visions or what.Ned can’t think of one bad thing to say about Rhagar except for what Robert has told him. The tower of Joy has some dark, Dark secrets, yet Ned is the only one other than Howland alive? No. This was a conspiracy. The fact that the Targaryens hide their MALE heirs during war is very telling. Ned hid Jon in the North. Maybe Lyanna never had a child….. maybe there is absolutely nothing in her tomb, not even bones. Brandon and his father were never found either.
I think Rhaegar is a beautifully intriguing character and I hope we get the full story of what the hell he was up to, and Lyanna, when the last two books come out
There is no Azor Ahai. Danny doesn't fit the prophecy. Jon doesn't either. Even GRRM said himself you cant blindly believe in prophecy. I think there is no "prince/princess that was promised" it will be multiple people together that actually fit into the Azor Ahai prophecy. Danny has dragons. Jon had a dream using a flaming sword. And Bran has the weirwood connections
Yeah in most GRRM stories all prophesy are bullshit. Different factions use dreams and visions to trick their enemies into killing each other. Also since prophesy is typically in a metaphor or some riddle people warp logic to make em fit.
@@nexis1293 There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.
@@wisdommanari6701 Thats not the prophecy dude thats a recap of the 1st Azor ahai The Azor ahai prophecy came from jenny of oldstone. Azor ahai will be born from the line of Aerys and Rhealla targargen AA will be born under a bleeding star AA will sacrifice a loved one AA will wake dragons from stone AA will be reborn amist smoke and salt Dany fits the Azor ahai prophecy to perfection, she did all those thing in one single event. When she hatched the dragons
Multiple people? Na. Targ princes thought they were the ones. So they drank wildfire, fucked up summerhall, interpreted scrolls as them being TPTWP/AA. OOHH How they wanted it. Jon does not want it, Is a bastard, does not know that the blood of the dragon is in him. He is the one. Clearly. I didn't even know it was a debate. Pretty much cannon.
I love Rhaegar for all of his mysterious background, I agree with you that all he did was about prophecy but he was foolish and I dont think he really thought things through. There's a conversation Jaime remembers, right before Rhaegar went to the Battle of the Trident, and Rhaegar tells Jaime something like, when I come back there will be some changes; I think Rhaegar's plan was to get rid of his father, properly marry Lyanna, and have both her and Ellia as his wives, and all of his children legitimized and then having the three of them rule together, but of course he died. I think that was his original plan but he should've been smarter about marrying Lyanna
I don’t think he wanted to marry Lyanna he was driven by the prophecy he wanted a third child that’s all plus unlike the show in the books polygamy is forbidden by the faith and Aegon and his sisters were exception .
I don't think he possessed the means to get rid of Aerys just yet, so he decided to go about it like Jahaerys and Shaerra and force everyone into accepting the marriage. - The funny thing is that the Starks would actually have to support the polygamy because having their daughter as a second wife is a better perspective than her being just a concubine, and Robert could be offered compensations in lands (and perhaps another hot wife, like Cersei :D ).
Good points made here… I think one of the most damning proofs is that Lyanna, the headstrong she-wolf never made a move after her father and brother were horribly murdered: the only thing that could have kept her at that tower after that happened must have been this insane sense of prophecy.
After season 8 my love of GoT was pretty crushed, but after watching a couple of your videos, I'm remembering how great ASOIAF is and I'm needing to read the books again. Thank you for reminding me how wonderful Westeros is (I mean in a literary sense, cos it's actually pretty brutal lol)
@@dolphineachonga812 Perhaps, but c'mon, she knew he was married, and I highly doubt she would want to be a second wife, or displace a lawful princess and future queen.
@@marywilcox3102Perhaps. We can only speculate as what we know about these two is from third parties who weren't even with them. The ones who might know are either dead or quiet i.e Ned, Reed, Connington e.t.c. So the only complete narrative we have is the show, which is unreliable. Perhaps it was Henry 8 and Ann Boleyn type of affair who knows. Maybe Lyanna was as naive Sansa of season 1 or maybe she was a deviant sex pot like Ann Boleyn. Either way, until George expounds on it in his future books no one can say with certainty that this is what happened.
jax dae polygamy is forbidden in Westeros and the last Targaryen who practiced it was Maegor Aegon’s son who was exiled because of it . So No every marriage Rhaegar had beside his and Elia’s is illegal in Westeros . Plus he can’t divorce Elia even if he wanted unlike the show when a marriage is consummated in Westeros it can’t be annulled and Rhaegar and Elia had two children !
Nothing beats your Song Of Ice and Fire videos. I enjoy your other content too. You inspire me to do what you do, however, you are in a league of your own! Thanks One of your Sweet Summer Children x
It's been a year and I'm still upset about what they did 2 Daenerys! I'm so glad 2 hear from U once again Lady Gray. Daenerys is the 1, the Dragons prove it. Dracarys!
I think Lyanna did write to tell her brother she was leaving. I just think Littlefinger got ahold of the letter. He knew that hot headed Brandon would get himself killed trying to get his sister back.
I think both Brandon and Lyanna were wargs. The way they were able to ride horses sounds like warging. (Pretty sure Dany is a warg too, the way she first rides he Silver.) I think The Three Eyed Raven was behind this. He may have sent dreams to both of them and pulled strings behind the scenes like he does in the books.
only those with the blood of the 1st men can be wargs and Dany is of the blood of Valyria through and through. The reason she is so good with her silver is because of the Dothraki who are a renowned horse back warriors and a major part of her life she spent on horse back.
@@zodiac5403 she has Blackwood blood, the blood of the first men. She is not 100% Targaryen. As I said there's evidence that Blood Raven manipulated things so that when the white walkers came, the Targs (Jon and Dany) would have everything they needed to defeat them. Now that we know about Aegon's dream about a Targaryen being on the iron throne to defeat the Long Night, this makes even more sense as Blood Raven would have been privy to it.
I totally love that you didn't overcorrect like so many others. So many people when they realize that Rhaegar was not a awful kidnapper overcorrect and make him out to be a saint, which he was not either.
I mean we don't know that he wasn't an awful kidnapper. The show says that But the show also has a lot of things twisted to *whitewash* characters more darker aspects.
I want to thank you so much for taking another look and giving me a different point of view, I can completely understand where you’re coming from how she’s giving prophecies our future events of their house schedules and how as humans can misinterpret that.
I think Rhaegar did love Elia after all. Why do I think so? We have a change in the book that Rhaegar was very affectionate with Eli. Can you be tender without loving? Also, Rhaegar and Elia's daughter was Rhaenys, and if he wanted so badly to recreate the legendary siblings, he should name her Visenya. Rhaenys was the one more loved by Aegon, the one who loved poetry - just like Rhaegar, and Elia herself had a character similar to Rhaenys, not Visenya. And the fact that the Tower of Joy is in Dorne. The City of Shadow's is nearby - I think the White Walkers and the shadow moasto are somehow related. One in the far north, one in the south. Together, they symbolize the end of something. Elia herself also has a lot of Nissa Nissa. It is called the Sun of Dorne, the coat of arms of the Martells is a sun pierced by a spear - pure anology! Maybe the "spear" was to be love for her husband? Besides, there are more parables. The mere fact that Lya and Elia are from opposite geographic directions, may they have two loving brothers: Ned promised to look after Jon, Oberyn lived with a vengeance for the memory of Elia, a desire to take revenge for her wrongs. Besides ... I am also reminded of the story Daenerys heard about how the dragons drank the heat of the sun, hence they breathe fire - so here is some element of the sun's sacrifice for the dragons. It also seems logical that both dragon fire and solar heat should destroy the ice. Someone from the North where ice is common as well. Gorge Martin himself described the marriage of Elia and Rhaegar as complex and multi-dimensional. I don't want to believe in Rhaegar's reckless romance. It's good for teenagers. In this I see a second bed of Rhaegar's intrigue and fanaticism about prophecy.
great video, and its finally convinced me that asoiaf is a fantasy series where the main hero was killed in a skirmish 20 years before the problem began. every other character might be able to band together, hold back the others and or even somehow defeat them but rhaegar was the hero who could have unified westeros against the real threat.
Excellent Lady Gray , forgive the long comment in advance but I think you have encompassed Rhaegar's general character , arc and influence on the narrative past , present and future very well here . Rhaegar is certainly one of the most influential and impactful characters in the narrative's recent history. I especially appreciate how you analyzed the good and bad with Rhaegar ; too often we get a lot of whitewashing from the - he is dreamy , thoughtful and pensive contingent or the other extreme that he is a horrible ego maniac who bought into his own hype further deluded by his obsession with prophecy. In the end I think Rhaegar lands somewhere in the middle. I personally am a bit more critical of him than most but I also do not think he is malicious or deliberately destructive either. In one respect if you look at the chaos, upheaval and bloodshed R + L (L likely complicit as well) caused with their decisions and behavior there is quite an amount of negatives to attribute to them. But also both were not in the best of situations , Lyanna seemed horrified at the prospect of marrying Robert and was looking for any way out and Rhaegar seems to have fallen out with his insane father who was king and R thought he was helping the realm in terms of political power and likely any other external / metaphysical threats with his pursuit of fulfilling prophecy. And it is somewhat tragic Rhaegar and Robert / Ned / their alliance were sort of on the same side to an extent with all parties seeing the need to oust Aerys II. Ntm as Gray pointed out the lead up in generations just before him , circumstances of his birth and the prophecies that he felt applicable to himself and then his children that he got wrapped up in , certainly gave him the catalyst and impetus to feel the means to achieve his desired ends were justified regardless of the cost ; and further convinced himself that he / his children were fated for next level importance. Also a somewhat spoiled / entitlement nature (that has even the most thoughful of Targs had) totally left R with the inability to contemplate if he was wrong or that his plans might not work out the way he intended as well as the disregard of the total fallout / consequences (on many levels) of his actions and behavior. Great honest unbiased breakdown and analysis of Rhaegar's character and arc , he is certainly an incredibly influential character overall. From the circumstances of his birth (Summerhall) the Tourney of Harrenhal , the Trident , R + L & Jon etc ; he is nearly unrivaled in terms of narrative influence and impact. But unlike many extremes in the fandom regarding their opinion of Rhaegar (both positive or negative) tend to be hyperbolic when at least imo I think he falls somewhat in the middle of the spectrum. I do not think R was malicious or ill intentioned per say but I also do not think he thought his plans through adequately or worried / planned enough about the consequences of his behavior / actions ; mostly on account of his belief of self importance (for himself and his children) and his obsession with prophecy / its fulfillment , the prophetic component which was likely his undoing more than anything else.
Rhaegar reminds me of Stannis & Melisandre in the sense that they all have a hero complex. They think it's their job to save the world and it doesn't matter if they have to do something bad to make it happen because it's for a good reason. Dany also has that idea of personal responsibility which is probably why she's always being compared to Rhaegar but hopefully she'll make better decisions.
You really do your research and have a passion for these stories. THANK YOU FOR SHARING! I didn’t find you until mid season 5 of the show but ever since, you’ve enhanced my GoT experience like having another watching buddy (more like a GoT coach). Anyway, I hope this leads to some very lucrative pursuits for you whether it’s GoT related, you write your own, or you become like Levar Burton & reading rainbow exposing/encouraging others to reading great stories. 👍🏾👍🏾 ✊🏾
As a proud Baratheon man I’m not a big Rhaegar fan, I think he was crazy for prophecy and was so set on trying to make it happen he didn’t think it through. He sometimes reminds me of Lex Luthor or Count Dooku in that it has to be him who saves the world, he’s the only one who can do it and he MUST be the one to do it. I think he kidnapped and raped Lyanna but all for the prophecy, like Varys and Bloodraven he has a “Greater Good” mentality so he’s willing to do things he detests for it. It reminds me of a quote from Luke Skywalker “There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you’ve constructed an entires philosophy of evil”
What an awesome video!! I wish we could have a prequel of Roberts rebellion. It could be a miniseries or just 3 seasons. Also a book about it could be super awesome!! But first I want the end of the SOIAF.
Rhaegar is the beautiful “Black” sheep, beautiful to look at but only bringing tragedy. He was able to play the harp but he kept his distance. People say he was a great warrior but we only have Barriastan bias opinion about that. Rhaegar died in the battle of the trident, against Robert. Rhaegar beat Barristan in the tourney probably was Barristan throwing the match. Rhaegar left his wife and children alone with his mad father in order to be with Lyanna. Whom I actually believe that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, she was against Robert’s womanizing way but she left willing to be with a man who was already married? No Lyanna was kidnapped as that would explain why she wasn’t able to explain to her family what actually happened. Rhaegar is a two-face man one who shows a saint to others but is just as mad as his father.
Barristan is a supremely honest and highly competitive man. I doubt he threw the match. Rhaegar also unhorsed Arthur Dayne. Everyone but Robert speaks highly of Rhaegar not just Barristan.
So I have two crackpot theories here: Theory 1) Maester conspiracy, and Theory 2)Autism (Disclaimer, I was raised in an autistic household, while genetic links to Autisim I have a brother, two male cousins, an uncle, and a grandfather that all fall into the spectrum, manic depression is also prevalent in my family and I respect the argument that these may be linked.) First the Maester theory, I’m sure you’ve heard most of it before so I simply want to focus on the disappearance of Maester Walys Flowers and the reason Maester Luwin went from Riverrun to Winterfell with Catelyn. (Puts on best GreyArea voice.) Rickard Stark trusted Maester Walys to the bone, or so it is implied. It is strongly believed that Walys had his part in Ned being fostered in the Vale, and even in the idea of the marriage pacts. Catelyn to Brandon and Lyanna to Robert. The Maesters wanted the dragons to burn and never come back, they wanted the Targaryen’s dead. Then the war happens, Ned rides to save Robert’s head and Benjen is suddenly in charge of Winterfell. Benjen, whom it is implied may have helped Lyanna be the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Now Benjen is no fool, he was starting to piece things together. I see the Maester being questioned and his tower searched by force, letters from Lyanna found, letters that could have stopped the war, but by the time this happened it was too late. I believe that Benjen executed Maester Walys, this may even be why he chose to take the black. I believe he sent a small party to try and catch up with Ned, to get him to parley with Rhaegar, and I believe the message arrived too late. Now theory two: Autism runs in House Targaryen, and by some extension in House Baratheon. Just a handful of Characters that I believe display Autistic tendencies: Maegor (Possibly Visenya?), Baelon the blessed, Aerys, Rhaegar, and Stannis. Yes, Stannis, if you read his actions through the lenses of being a high functioning Autist they make more sense. Sensory overload is a terrible thing, imagine being mildly autistic, and having Bobby B as an older brother! You would be serious and withdrawn as well. If we pull these two theories together we get an interesting picture. A prince, quiet and kind, obsessed with prophecy, whom was incapable of seeing things from an outside perspective, and a Maester that thwarted Lyanna’s attempts to stop the war. (Well, that was a novel.)
@@barbaraberenyiesterhazy900 i just see much of what we're told of Stannis and Rhaegar as pointing to them both being prone to sensory overload, some could argue the same of Viserys.
Rhaegar Targaryen left his wife because she couldon't had more children and he wanted another baby (Rhaenys, Aegon and Visenya) so he took Lyanna Stark and make a baby with her because he thought that she was going to give birth to a girl but no she give birth to a boy and she named him Aegon Targaryen but Lyanna was supposed to have a girl named Visenya. Rhaegar wanted tree kids named Rhaenys, Aegon and Visenya, the tree Targaryens that conqueror Westeros, the tree heads of the symbol of the House Targaryen
Yeah, they're so-called love was senseless and totally selfish. Lives could've been spared and a war could've been prevented if only Lyanna would've let her family know she wasn't kidnapped, as u stated.
22:27 Your video is really very good. I like that it suggests that BloodRaven could also have influenced Lyanna as much as Rhaegar and more points but Rhaegar did not leave Elia and her children with Aerys. He left them at DragonStone. And later in the care of Jaime You also have to keep in mind that you could have talked to Elia about this and she would have agreed. And Daenerys has not fulfilled any prophecies. The dragons were born but up to this point in the books Azor Ahai has still "appeared".
I had a weird thought. What if the reason Eggs plan didn’t work is because Dunk saved someone he shouldn’t have. He messed up the spell so no dragons were born
I think the same thing but maybe not Eggs idea to sacrifice Rhaegar, maybe Jaehaerys IIs idea to sacrifice his father Egg first, then Dunk the small, first the father then the son so both die as kings, he seems more forceful about fulfilling prophecy, making Arys & Rhaella marry. and then Dunk saved baby! . I have a SOFT spot 4 EGG!
You can't really trust much of anything we've heard about Rhaegar. Maesters fawning over him is little different than Pycell fawning over Joffrey. Even his victory at Harrenhal is suspect. If it's expected that men would give up victory to Robert in a melee, much the same would be expected of the men Rhaegar faced in the lists. One thing is certain. The first time he stepped into battle, he died.
Nah, barristan himself thinks that if he was better at jousting he could defeat rhaegar and the war wouldn't have happened. So he probly won fair and square, jousting isnt that dangerous.
@@thegreekdeal4747 I don't own a copy of the book, so I could only find a post online that shows so much of the passage in question. But in it, Barristan never mentions his skill at all. Just that he lost to Rhaegar. Whether it was on purpose or not is still in question as far as I can tell ... ""Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab. Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter… But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that."
@@thegreekdeal4747 Losing on purpose doesn't rule out the option to win. It's a choice. George has used this as a plot device several times already. Ned suggested to Robert that he shouldn't join the Melee because every man out there would choose to lose on purpose. Robert wouldn't be in on it. He also used it in the Mystery Knight. The person who is supposed to win is almost never in on it when George makes use of this device.
But wait Gray... why would Rhaegar need Wolf’s blood to complete the Song of Ice and Fire when he, Viserys and Daenerys all have Blackwood blood; making them Ice and Fire on their own? Isn’t the Blackwood line as old and rooted to the north as the Starks?
Rhaegar was an inconsiderate entitled prince. He left his wife and kids just to fulfill some prophecy and didn't bother sending ravens to his family nor to Lyanna's he just let everyone believe he kidnapped her. However I'm very curious as to what is so special about their son "Jon Snow" it can't be just to break up him and Daenerys like it was in the show, if so then that makes the mystery behind Jon Snow' s birth and Rhaegar and Lyanna running away together, Ned keeping Jon a secret completely anticlimatic.
Sydni Taylor That would assume Jon is their son, that hasn’t been confirmed in the books yet which was a very popular theory for years. You think GRRM is going to go for the most obvious theory? Are you sure Jon isn’t Ned Stark son? He looks like him more than any of his children, that’s why Catelyn Stark is so angry when it comes to Jon...
M Ab Lyanna has Stark looks, obviously Arya isn’t Lyanna’s daughter, you get what I’m saying? Jon doesn’t even have a shred of Targaryen traits, all bastards in the books at least had one trait..
By trying to fulfill a prophecy, Rhaegar broke the realm, which then needed to be unified in the fight. Flashforward to a traumatized "believed to be bastard" orphan child Jon Snow, leading a horribly difficult life to rise amongst the common folk despite being the lineage of TWO ancient magical families WITH a magic sword. Once Jon Gets a dragon it's GG. ALSO the prophecy definitely doesn't refer to just Jon, "the Dragon has three heads" Danny is the MOTHER of Dragons. Rhaegar could have schemed a way to achieve this prophecy literally any other way. Instead he sparked a civil war, that has only led to more power struggles. Families butchered, and it all could have been avoided if, say, he were king. Also if he were king BEFORE he made a move, and if this were before Lyanna married Rob, he could certainly do some wizardry with the faith to get things swapped probably. He could have made several moves other than THE WORST MOVE.
rhaegar is a cheating crazy foolish man who left his wife and children under his mad father’s care, whisked away a CHILD (yes even by westerosi standards lyanna IS a child so there’s no way their relationship could’ve been consensual ), yes i do believe lyanna might have run away with him willingly, but she doesn’t strike me as the sort to let her family suffer for her sins (all accounts indicate she was close to all of her brothers), got locked up in the tower of joy and died giving birth to jon. i hate robert but the best thing he ever did was smash rhaegars chest to pieces.
I interpreted the vision in the House of the Undying to be not of Aegon, his child by Elia but Aegon (Jon Snow) his child by his wife (with whom he was married after having his marriage with Elia annulled) Lyanna. Aegon/Jon Snow's song is the Song of Ice and Fire. He's literally both a Stark (Winter is Coming/Blood of the First Men/Related to the Pact with the Children of the Forest/Connected to any possible deal with The Night's King) which is Ice and a Targaryen (Dragons/Fire Made Flesh/Fire & Blood/Conquerors of Westoros which are antithetical to the First Men) which is Fire. I agree that he's not Azor Ahai come again, but I really think that Jon Snow's song is the Song of Ice and Fire. Love your videos btw!
I saw somewhere that Lyanna did leave a note to her family regarding her escapade with Rheagar but the note was intercepted by someone who had a grudge against House Stark and had a vested interest in seeing them get in a war with the Iron Throne. So who was this villain in the shadows? Varys? Tywin? Olenna Tyrel? It was of course Littlefinger who was still angry about the Brandon/Catelyn thing.
"I saw somewhere that Lyanna did leave a note to her family regarding her escapade with Rheagar" Where did you see this information, please? Was it in a book?
I think it was Jon Snow that brought Dany to his side to fight the Others. I think everything needed to go down the way it did between Lyanna and Rheagar. I think, being a Stark, she knew of the magic of one/all/the same prophesy as Rhagar.
@T 2020 If he didn't snatch Lyanna away, Robert wouldn't have rebelled and Daenerys would've born and raised in King's Landing and she wouldn't have been gifted dragon eggs.
@T 2020 if he didn't run of with Lyana there would not be Roberts rebellion, Targaryens would still be rulling and Dany would be living in The Red Keep married to Viserys,or some lord somewhere in the 7 kingdoms. She wouldn't have been married to Drogo,she wouldn't have gotten the eggs from Illirio.
I dont think lyanna had anything to do with prophecy maybe she just fell for him remember he sang a song and she cried imagine she could be an easy target for him he was a pretty boy who can sing and a skilled warrior maybe she fell for him i mean if she was to marry a womaniser why wont she love a married man who was not a womaniser
Now that we’ve seen HOD, maybe the mad king told his son of the prophecy? I know it’s not from the books, but I’ve heard that the book tells HOD as a story from someone else and the show is what “actually happened”. And it matches your theory pretty well.
One thing this series has show is that chasing prophecies can get you hurt and lead down dangerous roads. Ultimately you either let the prophecy play out or try to speed up the prophecy an risk traveling down a road that's meant or wasn't meant to happen. Rhaegar no doubt did caused a lot of damage but ultimately his part in saving the future of the world will balance out the bad. One thing GRRM isn't trying to do is absolve rhaegar from the mess he created. That's the bitter moment, but the sweet is that the prince/princess that was promise prophecy has been fulfilled and has saved the world. So there your bittersweet.
I also think Elia had far more agency than we think. Stories are important, but they're almost always about the men. Women's stories aren't often told. So Lyanna and Elia may have been actively involved in what was going on.
I still think we don't know enough about Rhaegar's intentions and actions to fully either condemn him or understand him. He had left his family on Dragonstone, not King's Landing. When he went off to fight Robert and his family was in KL he had every confidence he would win and did not foresee the consequences should he be defeated. Rhaegar and Lyanna eloping, perhaps the pair thought they had done so without no one knowing and where unaware that their actions had started a war. Rhaegar's action may have been what begun Robert's Rebellion but it was Aerys who escalated everything and it became more a war against his tyranny than because of Rhaegar.
@@joyk979right! Even the mf mad king sent his family to a safer place. Rhaegar had his men, his most loyal and strong men protect the toj while his family died.
Since the GoT show has played out Rhaegar’s depiction and description in a romantic and heroic light, the only way a prequel show about Robert’s Rebellion would work or even contribute something new and engaging would be to show the sad and pathetic reality of Rhaegar-the truth of his madness and manipulation that many fans have been blind to.
Girl... your narrative voice is BEAUTIFUL! Honestly, if you autio voiced stone kids books my kiddos would LOVE it!! Don't get me wrong, I read to them every night, but audio books are their face to fail asleep too
I agree there is a lot here that does not make sense. As for Lyanna not telling anyone she was going voluntarily, my theory is that she told Benjen. Benjen was the one paying attention to Lyanna at the tournament and was the one who noticed she wept when Rhaegar sang. I think he caught her leaving and she told him she wanted to go and not to worry. But Benjen being young, was scared to tell anyone for fear of getting her in trouble. Then all hell broke loose and he was even more scared to say anything. I think this is why Benjen took the Black; it's his penance for not speaking up when he should have.
Lyanna was bethrothed to Robert and that was a massive arrangement to break with a lot of honour involved so this is a very good reason for Benjen to go to the wall. I wonder if Ned would have stayed quiet in Benjen’s boots? I certainly doubt his headstrong and angry oldest brother would have with family honour at stake.
It doesn't always take fire and blood to hatch dragon eggs. It was a long standing tradition that when a new prince or princess was born they would have an egg placed in the cradle with them and most of these eggs hatched producing some of the most famous of the Targaryion dragons.
Jeez, Rhaegar they said it would come from your father's and mother's line not that it would be you or your kids and there was no mention of when. Smh. Jon is not the only one with a Song of Ice and Fire because Bloodraven has the same "song". Edit: Lyanna having wolf dreams and whispers from Bloodraven is a really cool take.
You can’t really blame Rhaegar for believing it would come from him or his line given his birth at summerhall, even Aemon thought he was AA. Then Aegon being conceived on the night of a red comet etc. But Dany is clearly AA. However Jon & Bloodraven aren’t the exact same, yes they both are descended from the Targs & the first men but the Starks are different specifically with their connection to the others, we know the Night’s King (who was likely a Stark) we breeding with a female other. It’s hinted the Starks are connected to the others through blood, making Jon descended from both Ice & Fire unique to Dany & Bloodraven.
@@adamgreene411 Whoa there, buddy. Yes, the NK was likely a Stark bastard, but he was still at The Wall and not ruling Winterfell. A Stark did take him down, but that doesn't mean he left any of his ice children alive. There's also no indication that the NK and his Queen even had children though they loved performing sacrifices. I think it's a stretch to say that the Others mated with The Starks. Especially since they attempted to erase him from history. I doubt any of the NK's abominations lived if they actually ever existed. The Blackwoods also hailed from The North until they were kicked out by the Kings of Winter. They still have that Northern heritage running through them and still revere the Old Gods. Hence why the COTF wanted Bloodraven like they do Bran. It's not a Stark thing it's a question of Northern Heritage. I'm not saying the Stark's aren't their own brand of special, but I disagree with you as to why that is.
@@SUPERHONEYBUNNY People think Danys a full targaryen, but that's impossible. She's from the line of Egg and Betha, , shes technically half blackwood, shes got that first men blood too.
Said it once...will say it a million times...Rhaeger was a a**hole...that got his whole world ROCKED at the battle of the trident. P. S. Great video as always...
Lady Gray, you're far wiser than me on the medium, but you asked. How I feel about Rhaegar? I'm jiving with all the background and context you're giving me. When it comes to George though, I've learned to never trust my assumptions of "goodness". Which stuck out to me, when you told us about how everyone thought he was the bosom of goodness. We hear characters say "There is no good or evil, there is only power." And power gives you the ability to paint good and evil for our audience. I think the only thing that butts up against that concept is that of fate. Is it possible for an author to foreshadow without a respect for fate? Did Rhaegar seek prophesy for power. Like the Buddha, he grew up in the lap of power and still he chose simple pleasures, like music and kindness. Do you think that if you could see in time, that humans would look like tentacles, shooting out of their mothers, their whole life frozen in one long writhing tentacle that either effects the substrate of reality or doesn't? I think Rhaegar did all that to weave himself tightly into the cascade of occurrences that his ancestors set into motion long before him. He realized he was just another segment on the human tentacle. He was ready to sacrifice all for it. Even his good social standing. Even others. Which may be one of evil's definitions, but on the bleeding edge of the present, good and evil bend and twist in the mind of the beholder. I ramble. Thank you for such content mademoiselle.
Rhaegar was a shit husband. I’m pretty sure he was doing this for prophecy as well. I also don’t believe D&D’s version of him annulling his marriage to Elia cuz that would disinherit his kids. I believe he took her as a 2nd wife. However I think she just thought he sweet talked her & was cute (in book clearly not show) so she wanted to have his baby.
Wisdom Manari' Arya unfortunately went through a lot of trauma at a young age so, no. However it’s said Lyana cried during Rhaegar’s song at a feast, so it’s plausible. Also she was 15 & he was in his early 20s he easily could have manipulated her.
@@ieatzebraarah true but I'm pretty sure that he just meant Lynna was a tomboy that was more into learning to fight and ride horses. It's why so many people think she was the knight of the laughing tree. So maybe if/when Rehgar discovered that she was the person in armor he treated her with respect and that's what won her over. Just a speculation.
Wisdom Manari' that makes a lot of sense. I’ve always felt she was the Knight of the Laughing tree. I could imagine him sparing her life as being a way to win her over too.
I hate that Jon was named Aegon in the show, had Elia and her children suffered not enough, had Lyanna to give him that name? It looks like an heavy insult more to the ones that already were there, would not judge Dorne if they had killed Rhaegar and his new family for this
I think that's because they mixed fAegon's and Jon's plotlines in the series but yeah, really stupid. As if Lyanna didn't know about Prince Aegon. There is no way she named him that.
@@lastquarter3992 I don't think they mixed the plotlines, Jon has basically no plotline in the last season, he's just there so he can kill Dany in the end. I think his name is probably Aegon in the books because if he becomes king in the end, which has been hinted at, it would make him Aegon the Seventh after Young Griff who would be Aegon the Sixth, and we all know the number seven is an important symbol in the ASOIAF series so it seems kind of fitting. I imagine Rhaegar thought that his third child with Lyanna would be a girl called Visenya who would be the third head of the dragon, seeing as he already had Aegon and Rhaenys, and he probably told Lyanna as much: so when Lyanna heard of the deaths of both Aegon and Rhaenys she realized they weren't the other two heads and the child she carried was the Prince That Was Promised so she named him Aegon to fulfil the prophecy. That's my theory, at least.
@@SOFIA-tl2hh It's not an interpretation I really agree with but I respect your opinion. We shall see !
@@SOFIA-tl2hh if aegon was killed in the sac of KL. Then young Griff CANT BE aegon6th. On the other hand, if young griff is actually aegon6th, then the baby boy who was killed by the Mountain OBV couldn't be Aegon
Pretty sure he was named by his father, not his mother.
I hate how people paint Rhaegar as some romantic brave tragic hero. He's not. He doomed his house and took a very young impressionable young woman away from her family and indirectly killed them all.
The Targaryens were doomed the day The Tragedy of Summerhall happened
That certainly COULD be the case, but I don't think we know enough to make that assumption. We don't know how they got from the riverlands to the Tower of Joy or any of the circumstances surrounding the journey. I'm going off the top of my head so I may be off.... but what if Lyanna was in some sort of danger. If he took her to the TOJ for her safety (like a true Knight is supposed to do) but before he gets back to KL, the Mad King has already killed the Starks. He could've been the tragic figure that some perceive him to be.
I don't think she was a silly girl, something odd happen there.
Emilce Diaz I don’t think she was either. We’re told Arya is very similar to Lyanna and whatever Arya was, she was never a silly girl.
You know nothing. Blame George Martin for how people view Rhaegar. He wrote him as being a gifted scholar, warrior and musician. Already hard to dislike him on that alone without being a hater. Then you have the fact that his father was a psychopath that most viewed as unfit to rule. As far as this video goes, George himself referred to Rhaegar as a "love sick fool". If the writer says he loved her, then it's a non debatable fact. The fool aspect goes with what you're saying but you seem more harsh about it than necessary. Ned Stark was a fool but still loved by pretty much everyone.
I always wondered if Benjen knew more about what happened to Lyanna, and the guilt about keeping her secrets was what had him take the black.
It has always bothered me a little that Rhaegar was supposed to be so good an honorable but then he went a dissed is wife and children the way he did. And yes, would it have killed Lyanna to drop her family a note letting them know she was OK. However, I love this series so much I a willing to forgive a lot.
Rhaegar (and Elia) deserves a marriage of love vs planned by the Mad King just like anyone else, like Lyanna vs being forced to marry Robert. Prophecy for saving the world is greater than getting a divorce to someone you don't love. If he lived does anyone think Elia or their kids would have been mistreated or ignored by Rhaegar? Like nope only care about the third kid? No he at the very least thought all 3 were important, the dragon must have 3 heads. On top of this Elia is from Dorne. There ideas about marriage, lovers, bastards are not the same as the other 6 kingdoms. Lyanna could understand Rhaegars loveless marriage because she was about to be forced into one. Plus with the ones we truly love we may be blinded to their flaws vs Lyanna didn't love Robert solely because of his whoring. She just didn't love him. Because they had to go through with the marriage alone and Robert and Brandon (via Littlefinger I believe) found out too soon and by that time no raven was going to stop the war that was most likely more against the Mad King for most of the rebels than saving Lyanna.
Like same I still don’t understand how people find ways to justify him and lyanna like he was as mad as his father but just a different kind of mad and if lyanna was not in love with Robert like almost every women who is forced to marry in Westeros because he used to whore around why run with a man that was already marry with children ? Like what’s with that logic 🤦🏻♀️ and honestly singing songs to the poor and giving them a few coins to me does not make Rhaegar honorable. He could have done so much more... I always tend to rant when this subject is brought 😂😂🤷🏻♀️ I really dislike him
@@orphanedhanyou elia is dornish not rhaegar LOL, thats her culture not his!
@@ChocolateRuko His culture is High Valyrian, known for having multiple spouses. Not extremely common, but not rare either.
@@mrvgamingwatching9753 when the targs came to westeros, they settled with the faith/septons and left valyrian culture behind. targs were mostly only allowed to keep doing incest, not have multiple wives. dornish still has their paramour culture, rhaegar doesnt have his polygamy culture anymore because most valyrians left it in valyria, and only aegon the first and maegor had multiple official wives
The conversations between Ser Barristan and Daenerys from the books about her family are some of my favorite. We got a little of it in the show but not much, in fact Daenerys mother was never mentioned on the show and I never understood that. Also Varys knew the mad king and Rhaegar very well but yet they never had a full conversation about him.
Sydni Taylor They couldn't mention Dany having a mentaly healthy parent and then tell her madness is from her "Targaryen genes" or whatever. Ofc I am giving them too much credit of thinking that much in advance
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 lol true they couldn't mention Rhaella because they believe every Targaryen to be evil and insane and yes you're giving them way too much credit
@Andro Santos I think Barristan would tell the truth about how he felt, he told her that Aerys earned his name
@Andro Santos In addition to this insightful video buy Gray Area (though with a few logical fallacies),may I recommend a video about Rhaegear and Lyanna from the Order Of the Green hand?
Ashara Dayne is her mother, and Jon snow is the REAL Aegon. There is no telling what really went down at the tower of joy. We’ve got all these unreliable narrators and don’t know what to believe. 😆
She called Robert Bobby B!😂💀🤣 I’m dead 😵
Lol she always does xD
Almost every GoT youtuber does hahah
It is hilarious
It's his nickname in the fandom just like stannis the manis
Your one of my favorite GOT channels, it's great getting a female perspective on Martin's world and characters. Keep up the great work!
I agree!
So wait Yall Think Varys Is A Bad Guy?
I wish she would narrate more stuff, love her voice.
I like this channel cuz of how passionate and emotional she gets about the story, not cuz she has a vagina.
I don’t see why her sex matters, but yeah.
Thank You For Making My Quarantine ALOT Better Sis
Imagine AemonxDaenerys =( the others wouldn't have stand a chance
Now I'm going to feel sad for the rest of the day.
Ok just a hunch. The dragon already had 3 heads. Rhaghar had a brother and a sister. Prophecy will happen. You cant make them happen, for you. That was his big mistake trying to make the prophecy fit him and he destroyed everything.
Daenerys wasn't born yet though
He wanted tree kids Rhaenys, Aegon and Visenya the tree Targaryens that conqueror Westeros, the tree dragons heads on the symbol of House Targaryen. Elia Martel was sick and she could't had more children so he took Lyanna, married in secret and he make a baby with her because he thought that she was going to have a girl (Visenya) because he had two kids with Elia (Rhaenys and Aegon) but Lyanna give birth to a boy named Aegon Targaryen and Rhaegar wanted a girl to name her Visenya.
@@zeera7080 If he had waited just 2 years she would've been. But he had no way of knowing that.
@@itsthatgirl98_ that actually makes sense, so it would be in reverse now, instead of Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya, it's Daenerys and Young griff and if the books follow the book, Jon
@D D the most obvios reason would be that in the prophecy it talks about ice and fire. Lyanna is Ice because she is of the north, of the old Gods, Rhaegar is Fire, because he is the blood of the dragon, of Old Valyria. Lyanna ( Ice) + Rhaegar (fire)= Jon (ice and fire). Also, through this he fulfilled the pact of Ice and Fire. She would have been the most obvious northern female to choose because she was the Daughter of the Warden of the north, if he wanted only a northern female to do this, he could have choose anyone.
Selfish and Deluded: Rhaegar and Lyanna (And Prophecy), A Love Story.
Yeah I think it's funny that people look at Stannis and think he's delusional but think Rehgar was this noble self sacrificing guy.
@@wisdommanari6701 self sacrificing? He almost certified his fams death, even his son
@@ricoambro like I said the Fandom thinks that incorrectly
@@ricoambro His son did not die. Martin fooled us all. Jon Snow is the real Aegon. They talk about how he has the Dornish look in the books. Lyanna played her part, but Ned had to honor that pact that was made so long ago. Crown Prince/Princess has to be fostered at Winterfell and marry a Stark daughter. The dragons hid their male heirs during war, and Jon was given to
With the amount of chaos he brought upon the kingdom, he had to have at least thought whatever he was doing to her, was more important than the entire seven kingdoms and thousands of dead Westerosi.
My theory is he was a pawn of Blood Raven and the children. Like everyone else in this story.
Rhaegar most definitely had a messiah complex. He was obsessive, selfish, and I'd argue that drove him insane. I consider him the Mad Prince. But time will tell if his interpretation of prophecy is valid. Lyanna was a naive girl that fell really hard for the "It was foretold in prophecy!" bit.
Rhaegar was definitely mad! Him thinking he was the promised prince at first and then he felt like it had to be his son Aegon but I guess he felt like it wasnt So he needed to create another. He was so obsessed by prophecy to run off with a young girl who was betrothed to his cousin.
Certainly mad. As for a messiah complex, he comes from a family of power hungry inbred lunatics, so it’s par for the course.
Naive? Lyanna? C'mon, that girl smelled Bobby B's bullshit from a mile away, even when everybody was trying to convince her he was a nice fella. Even Cersei was full of illusions about him.
@@Emy-fv5ny I mean, what bullshit ? It wasn't honestly such a big deal for a man to whore around in Westeros so Lyanna was kind of petty there. Considering that Robert was valiant, handsome, kind and loved her (or at least the idea of her ?), she was more than lucky to have such a great match. Some women had to marry Walder Frey lmao. But then again, she was young and the rebellious kind so I can understand her naivety on the matter.
@@lastquarter3992 It was bullshit, because everybody around her wanted to make her believe he loved, her and he was going to be loyal to her and that was not true.
Lucky? How can you be lucky to marry someone you didn't pick? Excuse, are you a female?
I agree! If Rhaegar had actually *trusted* the prophecy he was so obsessed with and done nothing, Daenerys would have been born in a few years, without any deaths or rebellions needed. This is what Dany's vision in the House of the Undying meant.
As to why Lyanna never told anyone that she was with Rhaegar of her own will to stop the Rebellion, I see three possibilities: One, she was never told that a civil war was started over her, so didn't realize that any "setting the record straight" was needed. I mean, Rhaegar was so out-of-touch with current affairs that Aerys had to send someone to drag Rhaegar out to fight the war he'd started. Two, she tried to send letters telling everyone to back off, but her messages either never got through, or they weren't believed. Think about it, would Robert's ego have allowed him to accept that he'd been jilted for a hot musician?
Three, she actually wanted to leave once she realized a rebellion had started in her name, but Rhaegar refused to allow it because he was fixated on producing his Ice and Fire baby. Were those three Kingsguard knights just there to protect Lyanna, or were they there to keep her from escaping as well? Given how many lines Rhaegar had already crossed to fulfill his precious prophecy would he really have shrugged and let Lyanna go if she'd developed cold feet?
Lyanna couldn't have stopped the rebellion regardless of what she said.
I love evrything about this video, I would just say yes the prophecy is about Danaerys BUT Rhaegar still needed to hook up with Lynna start and war and die to fullfil the prophecy. if Rhaegar did't die and if danny were not exiled she would have never been sold to Khal Drogo she would have never received her bride's gift of dragon eggs from Illyrio and she would have never been in the desparate position to hatch her eggs. yes it happened in an round about way but it needed to happened to put her in that position.
Thank you, great vid. Raeghar seems pretty odd, hardly any friends, playing songs in the place his family died, running off with a teenager. I've wondered how much Lyanna was on board with the prophesy, if we think she's like Arya then I imagine she didn't run away just coz he's so dreamy or whatever.
Every time you said disrespect I saw Mushu yelling at Mulan “dishonor on your house, dishonor on you, dishonor on your cow” I couldn’t stop laughing for five minutes
ned always talked about lyanna in good terms though. and jaime would have nightmares about rhaegar calling out his guilt for killing the mad king. the way ned describes lyanna, this tomboy sister who was skilled with horse riding and the arrow (i think she was described as such) made it seem like lyanna was more pragmatic and "northern-like" to buy into prophecies as intensely as rhaegar did.
what if... what if rhaegar wasn't in love with lyanna, but he managed to make her fall for him because he knew that lyanna would have to join him willingly? lyanna seemed like she would fight or die if her dignity was on the line, so if she actually fell in love with the deceitful rhaegar, then at her deathbed / birthing bed, she would make ned promise that their baby (aemon) cannot die by bobby b's wrath? what if lyanna didn't even know anything about a dragon prophecy? like she was just a teen who actually fell for the dashing dangerous prince?
jojen and meera also talked about lyanna and rhaegar as a "sad story" while travelling with bran, so in the POV of their dad howland reed (ned's friend who was with him at the tower of joy) lyanna must have been actually in love and died because of it. otherwise, it would not have been a "sad story" that passed down to jojen and meera but rather a story of grave injustice and cruelty if it were kidnapping and rape. howland reed would have known.
i think maybe lyanna was duped and rhaegar felt like he had to have a baby with a wolf girl because of the prophecy. and since he didn't have a "bad boy image", the only way to persuade the northern girl was to actually court her in secret. the crowning of "love and beauty" at the tourney was probably his "proposal" to lyanna, and the teenaged lyanna would have been too young to think about honor and duty because her first love had just proposed to her. so she willingly ran away with rhaegar. rhaegar probably knew that there would be bloodshed because he is a prince and he knew enough about politics and all the honor code between the great houses and so he must have known that lyanna may be collateral damage he just needed enough time for the baby to be born at the tower of joy. the only thing he was not fully able to protect was his son (aemon) because he overestimated the capability of his trusted men and underestimated the capability of the north. that's my theory anyway.
the reason why rhaegar did this seemingly foolish decision was i think he knew that the mad king would completely snap at any moment and he felt he just had to have the third baby at any cost. lyanna would have been married off to robert if he waited any longer, and that would have made it even more complicated.
Honestly, I’m not the biggest fan of Rhaegar and Lyanna...😐
J. E. Same!!
I hate the pairing so much.
Love your analysis! I think Lyanna was tricked by Rhaegar. She was just a 14 year old girl whereas Rhaegar was a 23 year old married man with kids. Lyanna was probably looking for a way out of her betrothal to Robert and jumped at the chance to leave with Rhaegar. She must have naively thought no one would think of it as a big deal as Rhaegar was a prince who theoretically could do anything he wanted to. But I firmly believe Rhaegar wanted to sacrifice Lyanna at the Tower of Joy to birth dragons.
You spoke my mind! This is what I have be saying to years now! Everyone is so ready to jump on her and say that the whole rebellion is her all fault and that she's stupid (Which to me, she doesn't seem like she is since she and Arya share the same personality), without even considering that she was a literal child at the time and could have been manipulated into thinking that he could provide her protection because he's the prince or blackmailed because he knew about her being the Knight of the laughing tree
Or Marin has tricked all of us because none of it adds up except Jon is the real Aegon. Son of Elia Martell and Rhagar Targaryen and just like in the books when Jon switched those babies, that’s exactly what happened in Jon’s case. We don’t know if Ned is having false visions or what.Ned can’t think of one bad thing to say about Rhagar except for what Robert has told him. The tower of Joy has some dark, Dark secrets, yet Ned is the only one other than Howland alive? No. This was a conspiracy. The fact that the Targaryens hide their MALE heirs during war is very telling. Ned hid Jon in the North. Maybe Lyanna never had a child….. maybe there is absolutely nothing in her tomb, not even bones. Brandon and his father were never found either.
I think Rhaegar is a beautifully intriguing character and I hope we get the full story of what the hell he was up to, and Lyanna, when the last two books come out
There is no Azor Ahai. Danny doesn't fit the prophecy. Jon doesn't either. Even GRRM said himself you cant blindly believe in prophecy. I think there is no "prince/princess that was promised" it will be multiple people together that actually fit into the Azor Ahai prophecy. Danny has dragons. Jon had a dream using a flaming sword. And Bran has the weirwood connections
Yeah in most GRRM stories all prophesy are bullshit. Different factions use dreams and visions to trick their enemies into killing each other.
Also since prophesy is typically in a metaphor or some riddle people warp logic to make em fit.
WTF you talking about, dany fits the prophecy to perfection. Do you even know what the prophecy is???
@@nexis1293 There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.
@@wisdommanari6701 Thats not the prophecy dude thats a recap of the 1st Azor ahai
The Azor ahai prophecy came from jenny of oldstone.
Azor ahai will be born from the line of Aerys and Rhealla targargen
AA will be born under a bleeding star
AA will sacrifice a loved one
AA will wake dragons from stone
AA will be reborn amist smoke and salt
Dany fits the Azor ahai prophecy to perfection, she did all those thing in one single event. When she hatched the dragons
Multiple people? Na. Targ princes thought they were the ones. So they drank wildfire, fucked up summerhall, interpreted scrolls as them being TPTWP/AA. OOHH How they wanted it. Jon does not want it, Is a bastard, does not know that the blood of the dragon is in him. He is the one. Clearly. I didn't even know it was a debate. Pretty much cannon.
I love Rhaegar for all of his mysterious background, I agree with you that all he did was about prophecy but he was foolish and I dont think he really thought things through. There's a conversation Jaime remembers, right before Rhaegar went to the Battle of the Trident, and Rhaegar tells Jaime something like, when I come back there will be some changes; I think Rhaegar's plan was to get rid of his father, properly marry Lyanna, and have both her and Ellia as his wives, and all of his children legitimized and then having the three of them rule together, but of course he died. I think that was his original plan but he should've been smarter about marrying Lyanna
Totally agreed.
I don’t think he wanted to marry Lyanna he was driven by the prophecy he wanted a third child that’s all plus unlike the show in the books polygamy is forbidden by the faith and Aegon and his sisters were exception .
Chaimae ⵣ Exactly
I don't think he possessed the means to get rid of Aerys just yet, so he decided to go about it like Jahaerys and Shaerra and force everyone into accepting the marriage. - The funny thing is that the Starks would actually have to support the polygamy because having their daughter as a second wife is a better perspective than her being just a concubine, and Robert could be offered compensations in lands (and perhaps another hot wife, like Cersei :D ).
@@chaimae3652 and Maegor.
Good points made here… I think one of the most damning proofs is that Lyanna, the headstrong she-wolf never made a move after her father and brother were horribly murdered: the only thing that could have kept her at that tower after that happened must have been this insane sense of prophecy.
Or the multiple armed men holding her there?
If only Danny could have had Aemon as a hand, I feel like he would have been a calming, sane influence.
Yes!!! SO glad to see you and that your putting out a video on my FAVORITE ASOIAF subject! Love ya Gray!
After season 8 my love of GoT was pretty crushed, but after watching a couple of your videos, I'm remembering how great ASOIAF is and I'm needing to read the books again. Thank you for reminding me how wonderful Westeros is (I mean in a literary sense, cos it's actually pretty brutal lol)
We need an Alicent Hightower and Aegon II Targaryen vids🙏🏽
Videos like these are the reason I first fell in love with this channel. Can't get enough!
Rhaegar did not love Lyanna, and he sure as Seven Hells did not MARRY her! The people who pair them together... just... UGH!
I doubt Lyanna would have given up the goods without marriage first, being Stark daughter and a lall.
@@dolphineachonga812 Perhaps, but c'mon, she knew he was married, and I highly doubt she would want to be a second wife, or displace a lawful princess and future queen.
@@marywilcox3102Perhaps. We can only speculate as what we know about these two is from third parties who weren't even with them. The ones who might know are either dead or quiet i.e Ned, Reed, Connington e.t.c. So the only complete narrative we have is the show, which is unreliable.
Perhaps it was Henry 8 and Ann Boleyn type of affair who knows. Maybe Lyanna was as naive Sansa of season 1 or maybe she was a deviant sex pot like Ann Boleyn.
Either way, until George expounds on it in his future books no one can say with certainty that this is what happened.
@@dolphineachonga812 Why do you think Connington knows anything? I never got that impression from him.
@@dolphineachonga812 how can she marry a married man?
I think it’s possible, that Rhaegar didn’t want to divorce Elia, but take Lyanna as a second wife, like Aegon the Conqueror had two
jax dae polygamy is forbidden in Westeros and the last Targaryen who practiced it was Maegor Aegon’s son who was exiled because of it . So No every marriage Rhaegar had beside his and Elia’s is illegal in Westeros . Plus he can’t divorce Elia even if he wanted unlike the show when a marriage is consummated in Westeros it can’t be annulled and Rhaegar and Elia had two children !
@@chaimae3652 maybe he didn't give a shit about the laws of westeros
@@clamshelljuicedo you think Lyanna's family, her people (the whole of the North), would be ok with it?!
@@yessica5231 more ok than him just taking her and hiding her in a tower because he wants to rape her
Nothing beats your Song Of Ice and Fire videos. I enjoy your other content too. You inspire me to do what you do, however, you are in a league of your own!
Thanks
One of your Sweet Summer Children x
Thank you! If you want to Do something don’t think twice about doing it! You got this👏👏
It's been a year and I'm still upset about what they did 2 Daenerys! I'm so glad 2 hear from U once again Lady Gray. Daenerys is the 1, the Dragons prove it. Dracarys!
Nice. A GreyArea upload on my birthday
Happy birthday 🎂
Happy Name day! 7 blessings to you💕
@@GrayArea Thank you Grey lady
@@soy.sauce.latte. Thank you
Happy Birthday!
I think Lyanna did write to tell her brother she was leaving. I just think Littlefinger got ahold of the letter. He knew that hot headed Brandon would get himself killed trying to get his sister back.
I think something like that happened too. It seems very Littlefinger to start a rumour about an abduction and rape to get back at someone.
I think both Brandon and Lyanna were wargs. The way they were able to ride horses sounds like warging. (Pretty sure Dany is a warg too, the way she first rides he Silver.)
I think The Three Eyed Raven was behind this. He may have sent dreams to both of them and pulled strings behind the scenes like he does in the books.
only those with the blood of the 1st men can be wargs and Dany is of the blood of Valyria through and through. The reason she is so good with her silver is because of the Dothraki who are a renowned horse back warriors and a major part of her life she spent on horse back.
@@zodiac5403 she has Blackwood blood, the blood of the first men. She is not 100% Targaryen. As I said there's evidence that Blood Raven manipulated things so that when the white walkers came, the Targs (Jon and Dany) would have everything they needed to defeat them. Now that we know about Aegon's dream about a Targaryen being on the iron throne to defeat the Long Night, this makes even more sense as Blood Raven would have been privy to it.
@@lyannatargaryen3223 yes but blackwood is not true blood of the north. Blood of the 1st men, yes, but a very diluted off branch
@@zodiac5403 I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.
Elia deserved better
Even though S8 ended badly, I still love these ASoIaF theory videos! These are the topics I wanted covered by the show so badly.
I totally love that you didn't overcorrect like so many others. So many people when they realize that Rhaegar was not a awful kidnapper overcorrect and make him out to be a saint, which he was not either.
I mean we don't know that he wasn't an awful kidnapper. The show says that But the show also has a lot of things twisted to *whitewash* characters more darker aspects.
I want to thank you so much for taking another look and giving me a different point of view, I can completely understand where you’re coming from how she’s giving prophecies our future events of their house schedules and how as humans can misinterpret that.
I think Rhaegar did love Elia after all. Why do I think so? We have a change in the book that Rhaegar was very affectionate with Eli. Can you be tender without loving? Also, Rhaegar and Elia's daughter was Rhaenys, and if he wanted so badly to recreate the legendary siblings, he should name her Visenya. Rhaenys was the one more loved by Aegon, the one who loved poetry - just like Rhaegar, and Elia herself had a character similar to Rhaenys, not Visenya. And the fact that the Tower of Joy is in Dorne. The City of Shadow's is nearby - I think the White Walkers and the shadow moasto are somehow related. One in the far north, one in the south. Together, they symbolize the end of something. Elia herself also has a lot of Nissa Nissa. It is called the Sun of Dorne, the coat of arms of the Martells is a sun pierced by a spear - pure anology! Maybe the "spear" was to be love for her husband? Besides, there are more parables. The mere fact that Lya and Elia are from opposite geographic directions, may they have two loving brothers: Ned promised to look after Jon, Oberyn lived with a vengeance for the memory of Elia, a desire to take revenge for her wrongs.
Besides ... I am also reminded of the story Daenerys heard about how the dragons drank the heat of the sun, hence they breathe fire - so here is some element of the sun's sacrifice for the dragons. It also seems logical that both dragon fire and solar heat should destroy the ice. Someone from the North where ice is common as well. Gorge Martin himself described the marriage of Elia and Rhaegar as complex and multi-dimensional. I don't want to believe in Rhaegar's reckless romance. It's good for teenagers. In this I see a second bed of Rhaegar's intrigue and fanaticism about prophecy.
Your aspect on this is so incredible! You completely changed my perspective on Ragar and his purpose . Wow this was such an interesting video!
great video, and its finally convinced me that asoiaf is a fantasy series where the main hero was killed in a skirmish 20 years before the problem began. every other character might be able to band together, hold back the others and or even somehow defeat them but rhaegar was the hero who could have unified westeros against the real threat.
Thanks for keeping me entertained during the quarantine.
I don't like Raeghar, I don't see his story as romantic.
ana iglesias thank you
I agree.
Hi ANA, Our position on Rheager as followers of the greenhand is very clear
girl same
THANK you. Absolutely nothing romantic about leaving your wife and children to die because of some other girl.
Excellent Lady Gray , forgive the long comment in advance but I think you have encompassed Rhaegar's general character , arc and influence on the narrative past , present and future very well here . Rhaegar is certainly one of the most influential and impactful characters in the narrative's recent history. I especially appreciate how you analyzed the good and bad with Rhaegar ; too often we get a lot of whitewashing from the - he is dreamy , thoughtful and pensive contingent or the other extreme that he is a horrible ego maniac who bought into his own hype further deluded by his obsession with prophecy. In the end I think Rhaegar lands somewhere in the middle. I personally am a bit more critical of him than most but I also do not think he is malicious or deliberately destructive either.
In one respect if you look at the chaos, upheaval and bloodshed R + L (L likely complicit as well) caused with their decisions and behavior there is quite an amount of negatives to attribute to them. But also both were not in the best of situations , Lyanna seemed horrified at the prospect of marrying Robert and was looking for any way out and Rhaegar seems to have fallen out with his insane father who was king and R thought he was helping the realm in terms of political power and likely any other external / metaphysical threats with his pursuit of fulfilling prophecy. And it is somewhat tragic Rhaegar and Robert / Ned / their alliance were sort of on the same side to an extent with all parties seeing the need to oust Aerys II. Ntm as Gray pointed out the lead up in generations just before him , circumstances of his birth and the prophecies that he felt applicable to himself and then his children that he got wrapped up in , certainly gave him the catalyst and impetus to feel the means to achieve his desired ends were justified regardless of the cost ; and further convinced himself that he / his children were fated for next level importance. Also a somewhat spoiled / entitlement nature (that has even the most thoughful of Targs had) totally left R with the inability to contemplate if he was wrong or that his plans might not work out the way he intended as well as the disregard of the total fallout / consequences (on many levels) of his actions and behavior.
Great honest unbiased breakdown and analysis of Rhaegar's character and arc , he is certainly an incredibly influential character overall. From the circumstances of his birth (Summerhall) the Tourney of Harrenhal , the Trident , R + L & Jon etc ; he is nearly unrivaled in terms of narrative influence and impact. But unlike many extremes in the fandom regarding their opinion of Rhaegar (both positive or negative) tend to be hyperbolic when at least imo I think he falls somewhat in the middle of the spectrum. I do not think R was malicious or ill intentioned per say but I also do not think he thought his plans through adequately or worried / planned enough about the consequences of his behavior / actions ; mostly on account of his belief of self importance (for himself and his children) and his obsession with prophecy / its fulfillment , the prophetic component which was likely his undoing more than anything else.
Andrew K when you call her Lady Gray it reminds me of the 9 days Queen.
You just broked my heart in a million pieces. I love Rhaegar 💔
Rhaegar reminds me of Stannis & Melisandre in the sense that they all have a hero complex. They think it's their job to save the world and it doesn't matter if they have to do something bad to make it happen because it's for a good reason. Dany also has that idea of personal responsibility which is probably why she's always being compared to Rhaegar but hopefully she'll make better decisions.
You really do your research and have a passion for these stories. THANK YOU FOR SHARING! I didn’t find you until mid season 5 of the show but ever since, you’ve enhanced my GoT experience like having another watching buddy (more like a GoT coach). Anyway, I hope this leads to some very lucrative pursuits for you whether it’s GoT related, you write your own, or you become like Levar Burton & reading rainbow exposing/encouraging others to reading great stories. 👍🏾👍🏾 ✊🏾
As a proud Baratheon man I’m not a big Rhaegar fan, I think he was crazy for prophecy and was so set on trying to make it happen he didn’t think it through. He sometimes reminds me of Lex Luthor or Count Dooku in that it has to be him who saves the world, he’s the only one who can do it and he MUST be the one to do it.
I think he kidnapped and raped Lyanna but all for the prophecy, like Varys and Bloodraven he has a “Greater Good” mentality so he’s willing to do things he detests for it. It reminds me of a quote from Luke Skywalker “There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you’ve constructed an entires philosophy of evil”
What an awesome video!! I wish we could have a prequel of Roberts rebellion. It could be a miniseries or just 3 seasons. Also a book about it could be super awesome!! But first I want the end of the SOIAF.
Rhaegar is the beautiful “Black” sheep, beautiful to look at but only bringing tragedy. He was able to play the harp but he kept his distance. People say he was a great warrior but we only have Barriastan bias opinion about that. Rhaegar died in the battle of the trident, against Robert. Rhaegar beat Barristan in the tourney probably was Barristan throwing the match. Rhaegar left his wife and children alone with his mad father in order to be with Lyanna. Whom I actually believe that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, she was against Robert’s womanizing way but she left willing to be with a man who was already married? No Lyanna was kidnapped as that would explain why she wasn’t able to explain to her family what actually happened. Rhaegar is a two-face man one who shows a saint to others but is just as mad as his father.
Barristan is a supremely honest and highly competitive man. I doubt he threw the match. Rhaegar also unhorsed Arthur Dayne. Everyone but Robert speaks highly of Rhaegar not just Barristan.
So I have two crackpot theories here:
Theory 1) Maester conspiracy, and Theory 2)Autism
(Disclaimer, I was raised in an autistic household, while genetic links to Autisim I have a brother, two male cousins, an uncle, and a grandfather that all fall into the spectrum, manic depression is also prevalent in my family and I respect the argument that these may be linked.)
First the Maester theory, I’m sure you’ve heard most of it before so I simply want to focus on the disappearance of Maester Walys Flowers and the reason Maester Luwin went from Riverrun to Winterfell with Catelyn.
(Puts on best GreyArea voice.) Rickard Stark trusted Maester Walys to the bone, or so it is implied. It is strongly believed that Walys had his part in Ned being fostered in the Vale, and even in the idea of the marriage pacts. Catelyn to Brandon and Lyanna to Robert. The Maesters wanted the dragons to burn and never come back, they wanted the Targaryen’s dead. Then the war happens, Ned rides to save Robert’s head and Benjen is suddenly in charge of Winterfell. Benjen, whom it is implied may have helped Lyanna be the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Now Benjen is no fool, he was starting to piece things together. I see the Maester being questioned and his tower searched by force, letters from Lyanna found, letters that could have stopped the war, but by the time this happened it was too late. I believe that Benjen executed Maester Walys, this may even be why he chose to take the black. I believe he sent a small party to try and catch up with Ned, to get him to parley with Rhaegar, and I believe the message arrived too late.
Now theory two: Autism runs in House Targaryen, and by some extension in House Baratheon. Just a handful of Characters that I believe display Autistic tendencies: Maegor (Possibly Visenya?), Baelon the blessed, Aerys, Rhaegar, and Stannis. Yes, Stannis, if you read his actions through the lenses of being a high functioning Autist they make more sense. Sensory overload is a terrible thing, imagine being mildly autistic, and having Bobby B as an older brother! You would be serious and withdrawn as well.
If we pull these two theories together we get an interesting picture. A prince, quiet and kind, obsessed with prophecy, whom was incapable of seeing things from an outside perspective, and a Maester that thwarted Lyanna’s attempts to stop the war. (Well, that was a novel.)
Karlandra Hmmm!! I have heard the theory that Rhaegar had Asberger’s.
@@barbaraberenyiesterhazy900 i just see much of what we're told of Stannis and Rhaegar as pointing to them both being prone to sensory overload, some could argue the same of Viserys.
Rhaegar Targaryen left his wife because she couldon't had more children and he wanted another baby (Rhaenys, Aegon and Visenya) so he took Lyanna Stark and make a baby with her because he thought that she was going to give birth to a girl but no she give birth to a boy and she named him Aegon Targaryen but Lyanna was supposed to have a girl named Visenya. Rhaegar wanted tree kids named Rhaenys, Aegon and Visenya, the tree Targaryens that conqueror Westeros, the tree heads of the symbol of the House Targaryen
It is more likely he manipulated Lyanna. And prevented her from going back or sending letters and didn't tell her all the truth.
Girl!!!!!!! I have missed the sound of your voice and your insight!!!!!!! Great video. So much info!!! Thanxxxx
In the end it didn’t even matter. Jon Snow was rob starked his two main storylines for no reason.
Yeah. The show just left that part of the story behind as soon as season 6 started.
Yeah, they're so-called love was senseless and totally selfish. Lives could've been spared and a war could've been prevented if only Lyanna would've let her family know she wasn't kidnapped, as u stated.
22:27 Your video is really very good. I like that it suggests that BloodRaven could also have influenced Lyanna as much as Rhaegar and more points but Rhaegar did not leave Elia and her children with Aerys. He left them at DragonStone. And later in the care of Jaime
You also have to keep in mind that you could have talked to Elia about this and she would have agreed.
And Daenerys has not fulfilled any prophecies. The dragons were born but up to this point in the books Azor Ahai has still "appeared".
Happy 2 be part of the sweet summer family❣ this video was fun,enjoyable and very GOT Educational
Gray, you are truly fantastic. I don't even need the show anymore. I have your videos.
Just love your voice!❤
I had a weird thought. What if the reason Eggs plan didn’t work is because Dunk saved someone he shouldn’t have. He messed up the spell so no dragons were born
I think the same thing but maybe not Eggs idea to sacrifice Rhaegar, maybe Jaehaerys IIs idea to sacrifice his father Egg first, then Dunk the small, first the father then the son so both die as kings, he seems more forceful about fulfilling prophecy, making Arys & Rhaella marry. and then Dunk saved baby! . I have a SOFT spot 4 EGG!
I couldn't agree more with your video. I love all your videos and theories on ASOIAF!
I would love to see him have his own spin-off for sure
Me too.
You can't really trust much of anything we've heard about Rhaegar.
Maesters fawning over him is little different than Pycell fawning over Joffrey. Even his victory at Harrenhal is suspect. If it's expected that men would give up victory to Robert in a melee, much the same would be expected of the men Rhaegar faced in the lists. One thing is certain. The first time he stepped into battle, he died.
Nah, barristan himself thinks that if he was better at jousting he could defeat rhaegar and the war wouldn't have happened. So he probly won fair and square, jousting isnt that dangerous.
@@thegreekdeal4747 I'm not so certain if "better" was the language Barristan had used when referring to his jousting. I'll look into it though.
@@thegreekdeal4747 I don't own a copy of the book, so I could only find a post online that shows so much of the passage in question.
But in it, Barristan never mentions his skill at all. Just that he lost to Rhaegar. Whether it was on purpose or not is still in question as far as I can tell ...
""Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.
Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter…
But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that."
@@StannisHarlock if he lost on purpose he wouldnt be thinking about it because he wouldnt have the option to win. Apparently he is so he didnt.
@@thegreekdeal4747 Losing on purpose doesn't rule out the option to win. It's a choice. George has used this as a plot device several times already.
Ned suggested to Robert that he shouldn't join the Melee because every man out there would choose to lose on purpose. Robert wouldn't be in on it.
He also used it in the Mystery Knight. The person who is supposed to win is almost never in on it when George makes use of this device.
Thank you! I am so confused by people who think Lyanna and Rhaegar are some beautiful romance
But wait Gray... why would Rhaegar need Wolf’s blood to complete the Song of Ice and Fire when he, Viserys and Daenerys all have Blackwood blood; making them Ice and Fire on their own? Isn’t the Blackwood line as old and rooted to the north as the Starks?
Rhaegar and The Dragon knight are the greatest Targaryens to have ever lived, change my mind.
Rhaegar was an inconsiderate entitled prince. He left his wife and kids just to fulfill some prophecy and didn't bother sending ravens to his family nor to Lyanna's he just let everyone believe he kidnapped her. However I'm very curious as to what is so special about their son "Jon Snow" it can't be just to break up him and Daenerys like it was in the show, if so then that makes the mystery behind Jon Snow' s birth and Rhaegar and Lyanna running away together, Ned keeping Jon a secret completely anticlimatic.
Things went to hell quick, no raven would have stopped the war. It ended up more as an excuse to stop the Mad King.
@@orphanedhanyou I'm talking about when he first ran off with Lyanna before anyone suspected anything
Sydni Taylor That would assume Jon is their son, that hasn’t been confirmed in the books yet which was a very popular theory for years. You think GRRM is going to go for the most obvious theory? Are you sure Jon isn’t Ned Stark son? He looks like him more than any of his children, that’s why Catelyn Stark is so angry when it comes to Jon...
M Ab Lyanna has Stark looks, obviously Arya isn’t Lyanna’s daughter, you get what I’m saying? Jon doesn’t even have a shred of Targaryen traits, all bastards in the books at least had one trait..
By trying to fulfill a prophecy, Rhaegar broke the realm, which then needed to be unified in the fight. Flashforward to a traumatized "believed to be bastard" orphan child Jon Snow, leading a horribly difficult life to rise amongst the common folk despite being the lineage of TWO ancient magical families WITH a magic sword. Once Jon Gets a dragon it's GG. ALSO the prophecy definitely doesn't refer to just Jon, "the Dragon has three heads" Danny is the MOTHER of Dragons. Rhaegar could have schemed a way to achieve this prophecy literally any other way. Instead he sparked a civil war, that has only led to more power struggles. Families butchered, and it all could have been avoided if, say, he were king. Also if he were king BEFORE he made a move, and if this were before Lyanna married Rob, he could certainly do some wizardry with the faith to get things swapped probably. He could have made several moves other than THE WORST MOVE.
I know this is two years old but I also believe this, just the worst choices all around and could've chose other ways to go about things.
rhaegar is a cheating crazy foolish man who left his wife and children under his mad father’s care, whisked away a CHILD (yes even by westerosi standards lyanna IS a child so there’s no way their relationship could’ve been consensual ), yes i do believe lyanna might have run away with him willingly, but she doesn’t strike me as the sort to let her family suffer for her sins (all accounts indicate she was close to all of her brothers), got locked up in the tower of joy and died giving birth to jon. i hate robert but the best thing he ever did was smash rhaegars chest to pieces.
Its too early to judge Rhaegar, parts of his plan are still unfolding.
I interpreted the vision in the House of the Undying to be not of Aegon, his child by Elia but Aegon (Jon Snow) his child by his wife (with whom he was married after having his marriage with Elia annulled) Lyanna. Aegon/Jon Snow's song is the Song of Ice and Fire. He's literally both a Stark (Winter is Coming/Blood of the First Men/Related to the Pact with the Children of the Forest/Connected to any possible deal with The Night's King) which is Ice and a Targaryen (Dragons/Fire Made Flesh/Fire & Blood/Conquerors of Westoros which are antithetical to the First Men) which is Fire. I agree that he's not Azor Ahai come again, but I really think that Jon Snow's song is the Song of Ice and Fire.
Love your videos btw!
1:59 but Conleth Hill aka Varys in the show said he has gotten a letter from George R.R. Martin telling him that Varys was good
I saw somewhere that Lyanna did leave a note to her family regarding her escapade with Rheagar but the note was intercepted by someone who had a grudge against House Stark and had a vested interest in seeing them get in a war with the Iron Throne.
So who was this villain in the shadows? Varys? Tywin? Olenna Tyrel?
It was of course Littlefinger who was still angry about the Brandon/Catelyn thing.
"I saw somewhere that Lyanna did leave a note to her family regarding her escapade with Rheagar" Where did you see this information, please? Was it in a book?
I think it was Jon Snow that brought Dany to his side to fight the Others. I think everything needed to go down the way it did between Lyanna and Rheagar. I think, being a Stark, she knew of the magic of one/all/the same prophesy as Rhagar.
The only thing that keeps me from blaming Rhaegar for everything is the fact that Dany's dragons wouldn't have lived if he didn't snatch Lyanna away.
@T 2020 If he didn't snatch Lyanna away, Robert wouldn't have rebelled and Daenerys would've born and raised in King's Landing and she wouldn't have been gifted dragon eggs.
@T 2020 if he didn't run of with Lyana there would not be Roberts rebellion, Targaryens would still be rulling and Dany would be living in The Red Keep married to Viserys,or some lord somewhere in the 7 kingdoms. She wouldn't have been married to Drogo,she wouldn't have gotten the eggs from Illirio.
@@soy.sauce.latte. So true, I didn't think of it like that. Rheager actions had consequences for Daenerys.
Rhaegar was not ready for YOUR READ 😂😂😂
I dont think lyanna had anything to do with prophecy maybe she just fell for him remember he sang a song and she cried imagine she could be an easy target for him he was a pretty boy who can sing and a skilled warrior maybe she fell for him i mean if she was to marry a womaniser why wont she love a married man who was not a womaniser
I love how it always sounds like you're about to spill the tea to me lol
Now that we’ve seen HOD, maybe the mad king told his son of the prophecy? I know it’s not from the books, but I’ve heard that the book tells HOD as a story from someone else and the show is what “actually happened”. And it matches your theory pretty well.
One thing this series has show is that chasing prophecies can get you hurt and lead down dangerous roads. Ultimately you either let the prophecy play out or try to speed up the prophecy an risk traveling down a road that's meant or wasn't meant to happen. Rhaegar no doubt did caused a lot of damage but ultimately his part in saving the future of the world will balance out the bad. One thing GRRM isn't trying to do is absolve rhaegar from the mess he created. That's the bitter moment, but the sweet is that the prince/princess that was promise prophecy has been fulfilled and has saved the world. So there your bittersweet.
I also think Elia had far more agency than we think. Stories are important, but they're almost always about the men. Women's stories aren't often told. So Lyanna and Elia may have been actively involved in what was going on.
I still think we don't know enough about Rhaegar's intentions and actions to fully either condemn him or understand him. He had left his family on Dragonstone, not King's Landing. When he went off to fight Robert and his family was in KL he had every confidence he would win and did not foresee the consequences should he be defeated. Rhaegar and Lyanna eloping, perhaps the pair thought they had done so without no one knowing and where unaware that their actions had started a war. Rhaegar's action may have been what begun Robert's Rebellion but it was Aerys who escalated everything and it became more a war against his tyranny than because of Rhaegar.
Nope we can condemn him for the bs way he treated his family
@@joyk979right! Even the mf mad king sent his family to a safer place. Rhaegar had his men, his most loyal and strong men protect the toj while his family died.
@yessica5231 that same mad king also kept Rhaegars wife and kids in Kings landing from leaving
I like to think Rhaegar had 2 wives, and that Lyanna did leave a message but Littlefinger destroyed it.
I really think there is a twist about Ellia Martell dyin (or not dying).
Since the GoT show has played out Rhaegar’s depiction and description in a romantic and heroic light, the only way a prequel show about Robert’s Rebellion would work or even contribute something new and engaging would be to show the sad and pathetic reality of Rhaegar-the truth of his madness and manipulation that many fans have been blind to.
Girl... your narrative voice is BEAUTIFUL! Honestly, if you autio voiced stone kids books my kiddos would LOVE it!! Don't get me wrong, I read to them every night, but audio books are their face to fail asleep too
I think Lyannas kidnapping is a marketing campaign largely championed by Robert and someone who wanted a battery in his back
Started by Littlefinger
I agree there is a lot here that does not make sense. As for Lyanna not telling anyone she was going voluntarily, my theory is that she told Benjen. Benjen was the one paying attention to Lyanna at the tournament and was the one who noticed she wept when Rhaegar sang. I think he caught her leaving and she told him she wanted to go and not to worry. But Benjen being young, was scared to tell anyone for fear of getting her in trouble. Then all hell broke loose and he was even more scared to say anything. I think this is why Benjen took the Black; it's his penance for not speaking up when he should have.
I like your theory about Benjen.
Lyanna was bethrothed to Robert and that was a massive arrangement to break with a lot of honour involved so this is a very good reason for Benjen to go to the wall.
I wonder if Ned would have stayed quiet in Benjen’s boots? I certainly doubt his headstrong and angry oldest brother would have with family honour at stake.
YES YES YES
I can't believe someone finally said it
Wow Girl you’re killing it!
It doesn't always take fire and blood to hatch dragon eggs. It was a long standing tradition that when a new prince or princess was born they would have an egg placed in the cradle with them and most of these eggs hatched producing some of the most famous of the Targaryion dragons.
Jenny Of Oldstones didn't die in Summerhall tho, despite The Ghost Of High Heart believing that.
I Know What They Don't Know Whered she go?
Jeez, Rhaegar they said it would come from your father's and mother's line not that it would be you or your kids and there was no mention of when. Smh. Jon is not the only one with a Song of Ice and Fire because Bloodraven has the same "song".
Edit: Lyanna having wolf dreams and whispers from Bloodraven is a really cool take.
So does Daenerys
@@nexis1293 yes!
You can’t really blame Rhaegar for believing it would come from him or his line given his birth at summerhall, even Aemon thought he was AA. Then Aegon being conceived on the night of a red comet etc. But Dany is clearly AA. However Jon & Bloodraven aren’t the exact same, yes they both are descended from the Targs & the first men but the Starks are different specifically with their connection to the others, we know the Night’s King (who was likely a Stark) we breeding with a female other. It’s hinted the Starks are connected to the others through blood, making Jon descended from both Ice & Fire unique to Dany & Bloodraven.
@@adamgreene411 Whoa there, buddy. Yes, the NK was likely a Stark bastard, but he was still at The Wall and not ruling Winterfell. A Stark did take him down, but that doesn't mean he left any of his ice children alive. There's also no indication that the NK and his Queen even had children though they loved performing sacrifices. I think it's a stretch to say that the Others mated with The Starks. Especially since they attempted to erase him from history. I doubt any of the NK's abominations lived if they actually ever existed.
The Blackwoods also hailed from The North until they were kicked out by the Kings of Winter. They still have that Northern heritage running through them and still revere the Old Gods. Hence why the COTF wanted Bloodraven like they do Bran. It's not a Stark thing it's a question of Northern Heritage. I'm not saying the Stark's aren't their own brand of special, but I disagree with you as to why that is.
@@SUPERHONEYBUNNY People think Danys a full targaryen, but that's impossible. She's from the line of Egg and Betha, , shes technically half blackwood, shes got that first men blood too.
Said it once...will say it a million times...Rhaeger was a a**hole...that got his whole world ROCKED at the battle of the trident.
P. S. Great video as always...
Lady Gray, you're far wiser than me on the medium, but you asked. How I feel about Rhaegar? I'm jiving with all the background and context you're giving me. When it comes to George though, I've learned to never trust my assumptions of "goodness". Which stuck out to me, when you told us about how everyone thought he was the bosom of goodness. We hear characters say "There is no good or evil, there is only power." And power gives you the ability to paint good and evil for our audience. I think the only thing that butts up against that concept is that of fate. Is it possible for an author to foreshadow without a respect for fate? Did Rhaegar seek prophesy for power. Like the Buddha, he grew up in the lap of power and still he chose simple pleasures, like music and kindness.
Do you think that if you could see in time, that humans would look like tentacles, shooting out of their mothers, their whole life frozen in one long writhing tentacle that either effects the substrate of reality or doesn't? I think Rhaegar did all that to weave himself tightly into the cascade of occurrences that his ancestors set into motion long before him. He realized he was just another segment on the human tentacle. He was ready to sacrifice all for it. Even his good social standing. Even others. Which may be one of evil's definitions, but on the bleeding edge of the present, good and evil bend and twist in the mind of the beholder. I ramble. Thank you for such content mademoiselle.
Rhaegar was a shit husband. I’m pretty sure he was doing this for prophecy as well. I also don’t believe D&D’s version of him annulling his marriage to Elia cuz that would disinherit his kids. I believe he took her as a 2nd wife. However I think she just thought he sweet talked her & was cute (in book clearly not show) so she wanted to have his baby.
Ned keep comparing Arya to Lyannna in his mind in AGOT. Do we think Arya would be caught up by a pretty man with a sweet voice? I dunno.
Wisdom Manari' Arya unfortunately went through a lot of trauma at a young age so, no. However it’s said Lyana cried during Rhaegar’s song at a feast, so it’s plausible. Also she was 15 & he was in his early 20s he easily could have manipulated her.
@@ieatzebraarah true but I'm pretty sure that he just meant Lynna was a tomboy that was more into learning to fight and ride horses. It's why so many people think she was the knight of the laughing tree. So maybe if/when Rehgar discovered that she was the person in armor he treated her with respect and that's what won her over. Just a speculation.
Wisdom Manari' that makes a lot of sense. I’ve always felt she was the Knight of the Laughing tree. I could imagine him sparing her life as being a way to win her over too.