There is this one line from Eddard IV that is obviously R + L = J. For context, in Eddard III, Ned killed lady. In this scene, he is talking to Little Finger about the assassin sent to kill Bran: “Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.” Sansa pleaded with Ned not to kill her puppy. Lyanna pleaded with him to save her baby. Especially after the mention of killing Rhaegar’s first son.
So Raegar having a son and him being killed and that being said in the same chapter PROVES R + L = J????! I really wonder about you people’s thinking. How does that make any sense. Did you just learn to read. My little pony is probably your speed. R+L=D, B+A=J
Yeah, I’m great, I just don’t think you guys know what foreshadowing means. Two sentences being in the same paragraph means literally nothing. Books have lines. Lines are printed linearly. One after the other. The punctuation tells you it’s a new sentence. I literally don’t see any connection. I read, speak and comprehend English very well - sorry, not sorry. You guys have dumb opinions and you’re even worse at expressing them. It’s hard to believe English is your first language.
bro, you're out here accused of other people of poor reading comprehension, and you think RLD and BAj? have a look in the mirror. And maybe actually watch the video you're commenting on because I think I proved it behind a doubt. And this line - if you don't understand the basic parallelism happening here, with Sansa pleading for an innocent life, and Lyanna pleading for an innocent life, with Robert being the looming specter in both situations, then I can't help you and you're in no position to be lecturing people about foreshadowing. you also came in rude from your first comment and if you keep it up you will be banned.
No wonder Robert thinks about Rhaegar bitterly. Homie’s last word was Robert’s fiancée’s name. Rhaegar couldn’t have done it better if he’d moonwalked into all seven of the heavens singing Rick Astley
This and an long-18th century history channel that focuses on equipment and tactics of the UK army are the only 2 channels that I actually look forward to watching the adverts for
I propose that neither of them lived long enough to have a real fight in their relationship so their bond over the prophecy combined with their attractions towards each other with those rose colored glasses would breed that their relationship was “picture perfect”. Up until they died of course.
That's a good point. It gets painted in this 'romantic' light but how long would the "honeymoon phase" have lasted. What would it have been like a few years after?
@@ThommyofThennProbably when they had to figure out the whole polygamy situation lol. I wouldn't want to be on the bad side of a Dornish Princess, even as a she-wolf. And even if Ellia was ok with the situation, those are tricky waters to navigate. All the ballads and tragedies are modeled after this brief, intense, doomed love. I find stories like Cat losing Ned much more compelling. A tried, true and tested love snuffed out before you could stop it. I want songs about that.
@@jessjess23brooks89Even in fully consenting 'love triangles' (sorry if there is a better term for it. Throuple maybe??) , I agree it would be perilous especially when you have a volatile mix of passionate young people. I know Elia is often painted as demure or something but I don't see much basis for that. Yea she was in poor health after several tough pregnancies but that (i assume) doesn't really say anything about her as a person. She was Dornish! I bet she was as firey as a Dornish pepper in her wroth and could spit venom if her ire was raised. And the 2nd part of your post raises the interesting point about the fixation on unstable, usually toxic or unsustainable at best relationships, a trope that to extent, is still found in music today.
I think another important detail and clue from GRRM on Rhaegar’s character (and how he did not abduct/abuse Lyanna) is how the very first time Dany is compared to him, is when she’s defending the women from being r-worded by the dothraki. Have never seen that as coincidence either. But now I did watch and as said earlier, gorgeous video!! You connected the clues simply and it feels just obvious with your explanations. Such wonderful job, thank you!!✨
I wish we could know how true that was. To me Rhaegar seems more broody and melancholy like Jon. The people who compliment Daenerys are talking about Rhaegar’s sense of justice. But she seems more ill tempered and reactionary like Viserys.
Well, Dany knew what it was like to be abused and to have no say over her life. Her own brother sold her off to a Dothraki tribal leader, a people who were known for their violence and in whose world there was no room for sympathy. Viserys could pinch her and sometimes slap her around when they were growing up, and he would have rated her the night before the wedding if Tobo Moht (sp?) hadn't posted guards at her door, so she could empathize with those women. Also, she grew up hearing about Rhaegar's kindness and overall honorable character.
Hm, it is implied that Rhaegar arranged the Tourney of Harrenhal to depose his father. Varys and his big, fat mouth ruined that. However, Rhaegar showed that he presented a sharp contrast to his mad, insane father. Aerys was doing a good enough job showing everyone that he was nuttier than a fruitcake. While Rhaegar crowing Lyanna his Queen of Love and Beauty could be seen as a romantic gesture, it was stupid. Rhaegar openly snubbed and insulted his wife. By giving Lyanna those roses, it could be implied that she is Rhaegar's mistress, hence Brandon's angry reaction at this perceived slight to his sister's honor. If Rhaegar wanted to use the Tourney as political leverage to assume the throne, crowning someone besides his wife the Queen of Love and Beauty was politically stupid and only alienated the entire audience. Ned himself said it was the moment that "all the smiles died".
Knowing what we learn later about Varys’ leanings toward a “king for the common people” and investment in Faegon - I’m not sure I understand why he didn’t favour Rhaegar? Rhaegar was known to be au fait with the common people. Is it because he was trying to sow discord like he did with the Lannisters to create a vacuum for the Blackfyres to step into?
I’ve always found the blame that Rhaegar gets for the death of his wife and children a little unfair. He left them in safe hands, at the seat of his houses power, protected by one of the most naturally skilled swordsman in Westeros who’s a sworn Knight of the Kingsguard and who’s also from a great house, he can’t truly be blamed for Jamie’s carelessness. Now, I do think he made a lot of bad decisions and isn’t innocent by any means, but if Jaime had been there when the Mountain broke through Elia’s door (where Rhaegar had ordered him to be) then his wife and children would’ve been safe, and the Mountain either dead or forced to fall back.
Impregnating a 15 year old is inherently very dangerous to the mother. Young girls are much more likely to die in childbirth, there are reasons we in modern times value the fact children cannot consent
Thank you for acknowledging this the amount of times I've heard people say he killed his wife and children is agonizing it's not his fault they were in Kings landing nor his fault that tywin was let into the city areys killed rhagars family not rhagar
Well, sry, he kinda did. At least a little. I mean he left 2 Kingsguard Knights with Lyanna initially, his most loyal, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. Later on Lord Commander Gerold Hightower was sent to bring him back and Rhaegar probably either smoothed tongued him into his faction then, or he had already done so to begin with. Who knows? Fact is, he never returned to Kings Landing with Rhaegar, but stayed behind at the tower with Arthur and Oswell as well. Elia on the other hand was left with: Barristan Selmy: Whom would undoubtedly protect her, but was foremost loyal to his King, so if Aerys demanded it of him, he would've watched her die without lifting a finger. At least at that point. He was clearly an unhappy member of Aerys's faction, but still loyal to his King above all. It's probably why Rhaegar didn't include Barristan in his plans despite having good relations with him. Jonothor Darry: Not much known about him, but seeing as he was neither close to Rhaegar, nor Elia, it stands to reason he was either loyal to Aerys or Rhaella. Seeing how much Rhaella suffered though, I'd imagine he was a "blindly loyal to the King" type. Jaime Lannister: Whom was monstrously talented, but young and inexperienced. There is also no hint of him "choosing" a side, so it's doubtful that he joined Elia's faction. Rhaegar specifically asking him to protect Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon however, implies that he was in the early stages of being recruited for Rhaegar's faction. None the less he never chose a side, so Rhaegar putting the life of his family in his hands was incredibly stupid. Lewyn Martell: Elia's uncle. It stands to reason, that he was part of Elia's faction and was probably enraged, when he was told to leave her and her childrens protection to someone else. He was however the only person in the entire "royal faction" to put Elia and her children first. 🤔 I doubt he intentionally left them vulnerable, but he definitely placed Lyannas and Jon's safety first, which begs the question: Why? In my opinion, Rhaegar must've found out new "information about the prophecy. Maybe knowing that Jon was to be Lightbringer (even if he probably thought of him as Visenya) yet Aegon not the prince that was promised, changed his priorities enough so he would commit to a slight mistake. The cost: Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon.
Jaime says about Rhaella "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him." I had totally missed that Gerold Hightower was sent by Aerys, Rhaegar couldn't protect himself or Lyanna from Aerys, so he probably left reluctantly.
It's funny that Jon is a Targaryen that looks like a Stark (Black hair and brown eyes), while his cousins are Starks that look like Tullys (Red hair and blue eyes)
I think @@pyramidion5911 is on to something here. Ned was actually JonCon all along. No better way to secure the North's Southern Ambitions than playing both sides of the rebellion. That's why he has red hair
What is interesting about the Hades & Persephone is that in some versions they have a son Zagerus who is killed and then reborn and becomes Dionysius. Yes, most people know it as Zeus and Persephone having a kid, but Hades was often referred to as basically "Zeus of the Underworld". They had a healthy respect of him and didn't want to draw attention to themselves by using his name. Anyway, in regards to that Zagerus myth sometimes it's Zeus that kills him because he promised that the son of Hades & Persephone (or the son of Persephone if Zeus is the father) would inherit his throne. Saw how strong Zagerus was going to be and basically killed him out of fear. To try to cover it up or make things better he implanted the baby in his mortal lover's, Semele, womb. Then Hera tricked her to basically offing herself and so Zeus sowed the fetus into his leg. Thus Dionysius is born. Sorry this is just a really long way of saying that there is a myth out there where Hades & Persephone have a son who dies and is brought back to life. Like Jon will be. Just minus all the hedonistic bit.
Maybe the 'reborn more wolfish" is a misdirection and when Jon is reborn, he will be super chill and just want crush chalices of hot mulled wine (no lemon though, even party-god avatars know that's for southrons😂)
@@thing_under_the_stairsone of the first books I read by myself was this illustrated book of Greek myths my grandparents got me. I read it over and over and I think it got me very used to really weird stuff happening in books. Especially the eating of kids stuff and the dudes giving birth by having fully grown people just climb out of their heads 😮
Very excited to watch this! Whenever people say “R + L = J” is too obvious for George, therefore “N + A = J” I just think they’ve been in the online fandom for too long. If someone is reading the books for the first time without the show or online theorists… R + L = J probably wouldn’t even cross their mind. It’s not even suggested by a single character. Anyone who says it’s “too obvious” is really just confirming that George did a FANTASTIC job hinting at it just beneath the surface, which the online community has obviously picked up on.
Exactly, I think people assume if a mystery is guessed or solved than it makes it bad when that is the point of a mystery. Let alone that it has been already confirmed by outside sources that it's true.
I flirted with N+A=J for a bit after watching a bunch of Order of the Green Hand years ago. But after diving into the LmL-iverse I was brought back to canon. David grounds his theories in GRRM’s symbolism and mythology that serve as the foundations for the entire plot. They are the soil in which GRRM tends his garden. Overanalyzing plot elements to construct alternative theories eventually untethers the story from the thematic and esoteric elements of A Song of Ice and Fire.
N+A=J would legit go against everything we know about Ned as a character…and it would do absolutely nothing for the story. I’ll never understand how anyone believes that theory or how anyone would even want that theory to be true.
I think GRRM has stated it this way, "you don't get to spend the entire movie hinting that the butler did it, only to trick people at the end that he didn't."
@@thisguy8106 Rhaegar is 1/4 Dayne via Dyanna Dayne, Egg's mother (thanks to several generations of incest) so Jon doesn't need a nonsensical Ashara parentage to fulfill that condition if it's important to you. He's also 1/2 Blackwood, so Jon has shapechanger blood on both sides!
I've always assumed lyanna told rheagar the story of Beal the bard, the prophecy clicked into place in his head, then the crown of roses given back to her would be more symbolic.
Isn't Ygritte surprised no one ever told Jon that story? If the wildlings have it as part of their own oral tradition, I bet Lyanna would have heard it at some point too. Maybe she and Rhaegar had a sweet moment during cuddle time and she told him then
@@ThommyofThennThe fact no one told Jon also reinforces R+L=J because I’m sure Ned would want as few connections to Lyanna talked about to Jon as possible.
Great video as always! With the 3 Kingsguard, I think the reason they did what they did and died fighting Ned and company is that while they may have known from Lyanna that Ned would never be a threat to her baby, Ned was still a *political* enemy. From the Kingsguard’s perspective, Ned was still a rebel who helped overthrow the Targaryens and supported the “usurper”. Even after the Sack of King’s Landing and the atrocities against Rhaegar’s family which Robert approved, Ned had still lifted the siege at Storm’s End and made the Reacher lords bend the knee to the new King Robert. So while Ned could be trusted to pass the baby off as his bastard and raise him in safety at Winterfell, that is NOT what the Kingsguard would have wanted. And even with keeping the baby safe, even Lyanna had fear on her face before Ned said “I promise”, and the Kingsguard would have much less reason to trust him. But based on the conversation in the Tower of Joy flashback, it is very clear that the Kingsguard believed baby Jon was the true King. Especially with how they refer to Ser Darry who fled with Rhaella and Viserys (who at that point Rhaella had crowned as King) as “Not of the Kingsguard”, and that “the Kingsguard does not flee”, and they “swore an oath”. One is reminded of Stannis, another prophecy-driven Azor Ahai figure like Rhaegar, who commands his men that if he should die in battle, then they are to “seat my daughter upon the Iron Throne, or die in the attempt”. It is possible Rhaegar gave them a similar order. And even without an order like that from Rhaegar, if the Kingsguard saw baby Jon as the trueborn rightgul King, then they would see it as their duty to seat him on the Iron Throne. So as opposed to Ned raising Jon in Winterfell and keeping his parentage secret, the Kingsguard’s plan was likely to raise Jon either in Essos or in Loyalist Dorne (likely Starfall), perhaps keeping him secret and hidden for a time, but once Jon was old enough, press his claim and use him to try and rally the realm and restore the Targaryen dynasty. And so I think that is why they fought to the death, to stop Ned from being the one to raise baby Jon which would prevent a Targaryen restoration. And as for Gerold Hightower, I personally do not think he was at all hostile to Rhaegar, or was keeping Lyanna hostage for Rhaegar’s good behavior. Particularly because he seemingly did not send any word back to Aerys about Lyanna. But once Rhaegar died, I think he was probably keeping Lyanna hostage insofar as he may have disregarded any wishes she may have had about her or the baby going to Winterfell. And instead would have forced her to stay in hiding with the baby, and eventually pressing the baby’s claim. And since he was not one Rhaegar’s companions like Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, he probably was not privy to or cared about the prophecy or “savior of the world” stuff, and was instead focused on the political aspect and his duty as a Kingsguard. Those are just my thoughts on that bit though.
those are good comments, thanks for taking the time to type them out. I'm particularly keen on the idea that the alternate plan was to take Jon to Starfall and raise him there, that makes a certain amount of sense. This situation is interesting because we actually have a lot of individual details and bits of information, enough to assemble plausible hypotheses, but not enough to know which one is right. as for Gerald Hightower, I would just point out that he was one of the ones telling Jamie not to protect Rhaella from Aerys's abuse, and I believe that detail is included so that we know Gerald is one of the bad kingsguards who is more loyal to the king than his nightly oaths or morality. on the other hand, Arthur and Oswell having been with Rhaegar for the past year, one would think they were aware of any plans he was making to depose the mad King, and obviously they didn't haul him into King's Landing and turn him in, which means they were sympathetic, and potentially tired of enabling such a cruel king. That gives me reason to believe Hightower might have been forcing the other Kingsguard to fight against their will. in any case, thanks again for the comments and I hope you'll leave a comment on my next RLJ video :)
I had forgotten that it was Hightower who said the “but not from him” line to Jamie. So yeah Hightower was definitely one of the bad Kingsguard and someone George is using as an example of someone who is not a “true knight”. So he definitely could have been doing something like holding Lyanna hostage against Rhaegar. Though I think even as an Aerys supporter he would still want to protect the Targaryen baby. And a thought that just came to me now, if Hightower had forced the other Kingsguard to fight against their will, that could potentially explain why the Daynes seemingly don’t hate Ned and actually seem to like him (naming Ned Dayne after him). Which I really have honestly never heard a convincing explanation for. Jon being raised at Starfall kind of sounds like a good fanfiction idea lol. But it just kind of made sense to me because of Arthur Dayne of course, and then Dorne which remained loyalist would be a good position to launch a rebellion from. Very much looking forward to your next R+L=J video on the Secret Wedding! A trend I’ve noticed in the online fandom discussion particularly post-season 8 is an insistence that Jon would still be a bastard and does not have a claim to the throne, which imo defeats the point of RLJ and what it would mean for Jon. So I hope you address some of those things. And I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your videos and how much effort you put into them! You are basically the only person who consistently has fresh insights and ideas and new theories. And you always present things in an entertaining and well put together way.
@@dillonmurray592Ser Willem Darry absconded from Dragonstone with Dany and Viserys to Braavos. He is the sickly old knight that Dany remembers from her childhood 🥺
I don't know. Just because Elia is from Dorne, a sexually liberated country where women have more rights, doesn't mean that she would be okay with Rhaegar taking a second wife. Besides, I thought polygamous marriages ended with Maegor the Cruel. The Faith and most of Westeros would never stand for Rhaegar taking a second wife.
no we can't be sure, I only mean to suggest it as a possibility. but the other part of it is that all of the revenge obsessed Dornish seem totally cool with house Targaryen
But what if Rhaegar convinces Lyanna of the coming doom of the realm which starts in the North where the Starks are in charge of the wall with the prophecy and Lyanna probably has visions of this and of her son Jon stopping it. And then they put 2 and 2 together for the good of the realm but also falling in love with the sense of duty.
Doran being ok using what remains of House Targaryen against his enemies who brutally murdered his sister isn’t really out of the realm of reason. The man was playing the long game and using Dany isn’t synonymous with forgiving Rhaegar, it only means Dany was far more useful to him alive than dead, she was still a Targaryen who if she had succeeded in taking the throne would look favourably at her allies and remember the enemies with blood on their hands, especially if that had been Targaryen blood.
@31:15 It is worth noting here that in the original drafts for this story, GRRM had written it as Brandon who shows up to defeat Howland's attackers with a tourney sword. IMO, Brandon makes a lot more sense UNLESS you are trying to establish Lyanna as a character who is just as headstrong and wild as her siblings. The squires also did not appear to have weapons which, despite Lyanna likely being smaller/weaker than they were, gave her a huge advantage. That and Lyanna's sudden appearance.
If I was GRRM, I would’ve asked them what the overarching theme of ASOIAF is. That I feel is the most important question to the series. You can’t have a faithful adaptation if you don’t understand the source material.
david mentions rhaegar didn't ask lord rickon for permission to marry lyanna. but if you notice lord rickon didn't ask for his daughter back when he went to king's landing. maybe the fathers know what was going on.
I always imagine that when Rhaegar went off to find the "Knight of the laughing tree", he must have found Lyanna, worked out it was her somehow and the pair of them probably fought! I bet he was like "Come on "my lady"! We'll take you back, you can explain blah blah" and she probably tried to fight him and banter ensued! Maybe they too ended up in the water of a pond or lake and were soaking and as they fought she slowly told him the real story. "Those Squires deserved it for beating up the Crannog man! Someone needed to teach them a lesson!" And the more they fought and the feistier Lyanna got (and maybe she handed Rhaegar his ass too!) Rhaegar was like "Damn, I'm in love." I bet he'd never met any woman like Lyanna, akin to how Jon had never met someone like Ygritte? Someone fiery, fierce and who stood up for everything good, just and righteous! Just like Rhaegar did himself! I imagine after they fought that Rhaegar probably very quickly realised if Lyanna was put Infront of his father (Aerys) he would one, probably kill her because he was nuts and two, Lyanna's father would likely punish Lyanna for what she'd done even if Aerys didn't first. It would have definitely ruined her status as "a lady". Lyanna being punished for doing something right, probably didn't sit too comfortably with Rhaegar at all. He of course, let's her go and later crowns her with the crown of roses because of what she did standing up for Howland. Lyanna WAS the Queen of love and beauty and much much more than that as well. I suppose he was dumb in the sense that he probably didn't realise that no one else knew the reason he was crowning Lyanna... Not because he just randomly fancied some girl in the crowd... But because he was rewarding her for her bravery and righteousness. Maybe Lyanna was sat there, (shitting bricks - as the English saying goes!!) worried that Rhaegar had told his father? Maybe he was going to "out" her when he walked his horse up to where she was sat, watching in the crowd? Only to be presented with the crown of roses and to realise that Rhaegar understood her, that he wasn't going to reveal her secret. In the moment it probably felt like a great idea to Rhaegar! Lyanna too! And then of course the pair realised that to the outsider...... It was going to look very very suspicious. It's not like Rhaegar could have just gone "Oh hey guys! Don't worry! I don't fancy her! It's just that she bested these idiots who were bullying some guy and I thought, let's reward her with this crown to show I appreciate what she did!!" 🤷🏻♀️🙈 /end rant
What do you think of the theory that Martin is telling a story about how every time you try to force prophecy to happen, it backfires? There are certainly a lot of misinterpretations of prophecy that ends up destroying the person for trying to make it happen, rather than just waiting to see. Ex: Stannis as Azor Ahai, Aegon's mistake at Summerhall, and even Rhaegar with the Prince that was Promised - as Aemon points out this is Dany, not Rhaegar or his son(s). And so the theory is that Rhaegar's choices to try and fulfill the prophecy ended his life. Vs Dany fulfilled it before she knew about it.
She'll be the woman who will fight for their honour She'll be the hero that he's dreamin' of They're gonna live forever, knowin' together That they did it all for the glory of love
I think people who don't take the Dornish chars and Ned's lack of criticism for Rhaegar seriously need to better understand how George tends to write. This is a classic example of 'show, don't tell'. As you point out, he puts the characters who know the truth right next to those who don't and lets us notice the difference. George almost never confirms these types of things explicitly, and while I imagine the next books will contain more information people should be prepared for the possibility that we might already know 60-80% of the information about this that he's ever going to tell us.
That Jon Snow as a Targaryen picture at 1:42 might be the best Jon art I have seen in my opinion. More than just the white hair but the style, brushwork. Oh my
I can imagine something like Hightiwer coming to take Rhaegar and Lyanna, on order from the king. But, Arthur and Oswell defy and threaten him out of loyalty. So, a compromise is reached due to Higtower not wanting to face two other kingsguard + Rhaegar, and them not truly wanting to kill him, either. So, Rhaegar agrees to return freely, so long as Hightower stays to defend his new wife and child.
You can demonstrate Rhaegar’s respect, even if not love, for Elia as he doesn’t put her through the risk of another pregnancy to meet his own ends. We see other supposedly “good” characters put their wives through fatal pregnancies.
That definitely seems to be a trait that is fairly unique in Rhaegar, at least compared to some of the other lords/kings. I felt that HOTD was making a bit of a nod to this in s1. As you said, Rhaegar respects/quite possibly loved Elia enough to break several social taboos so that he can continue his quest without forcing her to essentially lay down her life for him. Meanwhile Viserys, (HOTD SHOW SPOILERS) * _ * * _ who apparently feels somewhat badly about that absolutely horrifying 'delivery' scene, after quick deliberation, kills his wife in exchange for an heir. I believe Rhaegar would have found another way if he were in that situation too.
@@kellypayeur7880 I mean...kinda? He left them, true - but it proved correct that Aerys was not going to hurt them. Besides, where else should he have left them? It was quite literally the safest place in the realm, holding out months after the rest fell. Taking them with him on a dangerous journey or into war would not have been a reasonable choice either. The only "safer" option would have been to not contribute to that mess in the first place...
@@kellypayeur7880Except they weren’t. Aerys never hurt them, he kept them where he could see them to force Dorne to fight for him but there’s no evidence that Aerys hurt Elia, Rhaenys or Aegon. If Jaime would have done what anything except let Clegane and Lorch do what they did Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon would have probably survived. I’m not blaming Jaime for that btw, he made a mistake and is haunted by it which is more than anyone can say for other people that did/benefitted from what happened to them
@@DavidCarradinesBelt He didn't physically harm them. But he still kept them as prisoners and hostages against their will to ensure Dorne's cooperation.
When Dorne heard of Rhaegar and Lyanna running off, they threatened to withhold their swords/army. Aerys held Lewyn Martell hostage to force them to relent. The Martells were not happy with Rhaegar’s actions.
And Elia would have been even less happy, as she would have never agreed to Rhaegar recreating Daemon Blackfyre: A Dornish queen and her half-Dornish son being threatened by a high born bastard, a conflict that ended on Elia's lifetime.
😮9:24 i thought this was some early 1700s oil painting repurposed to illustrate a similar scene from asoiaf. That's some gorgeous and detailed artwork, very neat. It reminds of one where Herod's daughter dances around. Thank you Justin!
That was a terrific video thank you for making it. Delivered like a lawyer's closing argument and full of forensic analysis of the source material. Loved every bit of it ❤️
But I do agree with David Lightbringer, that Littlefinger spread lies about the "abduction". It was all about getting back at Brandon Stark for the "souvenir" he got through their duel. He would have witnessed firsthand the chaos and destruction a few carefully constructed words could cause...and use them as "inspiration" in the future to fulfill his twisted ambitions.
20:05 Dude! 😂 On a serious note: Since George didn't give us TWOW yet, it gave me time to dive deeper and deeper into the world of these books through this channel. I appreciate the ride so far, it will be my 5th anniversary subscribing to you this year (shoutout @QuinnsIdeas for the collabo) and I can't appreciate it enough, my man ! To the journey until now, and to the journey which lies ahead, for it will be glorious! Cheers and a heartfelt "Thank you" ✊
I mourn for Rhaegar and Lyanna so much. I feel like they had a beautiful connection, that we may never get to know the true ins and outs of. She's painted as such a badass, but the sound of Rhaegar's harp can move her to tears. And every account of Rhaegar paints him as someone gentle, kind, and just. What a shame to not see these 2 lead the kingdom. I wonder what Rhaegar's plans he spoke of to Jaime were. Also to feed the theory monster, what do we think of Daenarys secretly being Rhaegar's child instead of sister? I've seen that one here and there. Perfect content once again ❤
The real tragedy of Rhaegar Targaryen is that he is Summerhall made flesh: Obsession with prophecies, grandiose plans to save the world and willingness to sacrifice women into its altar. He never took Lyanna out of love or even lust, but because he sought to prove that the prophecy that spawned him was real and worth any measure of sacrifice. Instead, his parents die, his wife and kids die, his "lover" dies and his siblings are forced into Essos in exile. And nope, Rhaegar and Lyanna wouldn't have been good rulers. He would have been more like Aerys I and she is utterly disinterested in politics and any ladylike pursuits. Be real and remove the shipping tinted glasses.
Gerold Hightower - The White Bull - The Gelded Ox, who thought of nothing of Aerys "taking his rights" via his queen, even though it was clearly r***, following each poor person who was burned with wildfire.
Thank you for breaking this down further Dave. I for one am very happy that magic spoon was kind enough to keep R+L well fed during her pregnancy. Makes sense why Jon is such a strong strapping boy
I think Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, but only at first, I think she might of tried to leave and then shit got dark with Rhaegar it’s either that or both Rhaegar and lyanna are responsible for about 10s of thousands of death, a bunch of mass rape, and other things like that.
@@jakedvander If you haven't seen it, David has another video called "Dawn is the Original Ice: the Last Hero" that goes through all the evidence that Dawn originally belonged to the Starks during the Long Night. I mean we think it's the dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero, and the Last Hero was probably a Stark, and Dawn is the only pure white sword, and the Starks have a tradition pre-dating Valyrian Steel of naming their family sword "Ice"... There's just a lot there that lines up. So if all that's true, it'll be Jon's Stark blood that qualifies him to wield Dawn. His 1/8th Dayne lineage through Rhaegar is just a nice bonus.
@@OdekoMoon I’ve never thought about it that way I can totally see that happening. I’m 50/50 on it all I think both make sense which goes to show how well the story is written.
Love this stream! Been waiting for it! Thanks! You do a beautiful job linking the symbolism. GRRM is a master of weaving his symbolism in subtle ways. Neds inner monologue is the icing on the cake. He doesn’t think of Rheagar in a negative way at all. He even makes the mental comparison that he didn’t believe Rhaegar would visit a brothel vs. how Lyanna told him she thought Robert had a baby on a girl and would not keep to one bed. He makes that assumption around a memory of his sister. Good stuff!
Thank you, David, another great video! And one of my favorite topics related to ASoIaF. I agree with you on all points. I have never found a good reason for the fight with the Kingsguard. Your solution makes sense and explains everything. The art you found is awesome. And your ad with Reading Rhaegar is perfect.
I also like the theory that Rhaegar and his wife were both in agreement with him getting a third child with Lyanna. I remember a theory video where they postulated that Rhaegar was out of the war for so long because he was negotiating with Dorne. Prince Dorian is a wily and ruthless man; he would have pushed his advantage while he could. As for the King's Guard, they likely didn't know much of the fighting since they were isolated, so Ned's taunting was actually informing them of events without him realizing it.
That theory can be easily ruined with the fact that the Blackfyre Rebellions exist. A centuries old conflict that ended on Elia's lifetime and whose casus belli was a Dornish queen and her half-Dornish son was sitting on the Iron Throne. Elia agreeing to this is basically giving her enemies a sword to kill her.
Love your video's Lml! Thank you for another one!! You have so much great content on your channel & I'm very grateful for all the literary discoveries you've shared with us!!!
Thanks for defending Lyanna and Rhaegar against the prevailing ideas that 'they caused a war'. Aerys and Jon Arryn caused a war. Regardless of what Robert might prefer to tell himself, he was a pawn in the game of thrones with good looks and an important name. He didn't decide to wage the war until after Aerys called for his execution and Jon Arryn refused and layed out the plans, his strategic contributions are dubious and after the war Jon Arryn ruled when he was partying. In addition, the chain of events from 'Rhaegar and Lyanna disappear' to 'Robert kills Rhaegar' is so specific and involves so much unnecesary madness and stupidity that it would have been rather hard to see all that coming. Brandon could have not called for Rhaegar to die right outside the red keep and Aerys could have just held Brandon hostage to ensure Rickard stayed in line. Certainly demanding Jon Arryn executes Ned and Robert after ensuring Ned commands the North was a completely unforced error that would have been hard to foresee for anyone. That's practically lining up the insurrection of three of the big houses.
So I have a theory about the blue winter rose in the wall. The story of bael the bard tells us that the starks have the blood of the free folk in them as stated by ygritte. Most people associate the winter rose with lyanna because of the crown presented to her at the tourney of harrenhal. However the winter rose (chronologically at least in the timeline of the story) is first spoken of in the story of bael the bard. Not saying that the story of the the tourney and the crown of roses wasnt talked about before baels story in the book. I honestly dont remember which story the reader comes across first. Just saying that if we are talking about the history of the winter rose in the books, the story of bael the bard is obviously older than the events of the tourney at harrenhal. Did GRRM pull a fast one and make everyone think that the blue rose is because R+L=J, when in reality its just about jon and his role in bringing down the wall (XD) between the freefolk and the seven kingdoms? That THE WINTER ROSE IN DANY'S VISION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LYANNA, RHAEGAR, OR WHO JONS PARENTS ACTUALLY ARE? Lets dig a little deeper into my theory and find out together! Could the winter rose be "filling the air with sweetness" because Jon, (who has the blood of the starks and freefolk in him, which is imo the true meaning of the symbolization of the winter rose), is dissolving the barrier between the north and the freefolk and returning it to its original purpose of shielding the realms of men from the others? He is doing everything in his power to save humanity and mend the relationship between the free folk and the seven kingdoms into an alliance. Could the joining of the blood between the starks and the freefolk that happened long ago (symbolized by the winter rose itself) be blooming or blossoming in the very thing that has kept them separate for so long? Is Jon Stark (I said what i said) being a total SWEETHEART? XD Also I am not sure but I dont remember anyone in the books describing anything like a "chink" in the wall. Only in danys vision is that word used if i remember right. I think this word is used intentionally as a symbol that jon (the winter rose) is putting a chink in the armor of the wall as it has been used for a long time, and returning it to its original purpose. The people of the seven kingdoms see the free folk as "wildlings" because the do not venture out beyond the barrier (armor) they put there, much less even try to talk or trade with the free folk. They call them "wildlings" because the free folk have to raid them to feed themselves and quite frankly to keep from inbreeding. Ygritte talks about the importance of stealing a woman from another clan and how marrying into your own clan is paramount to incest in the seven kingdoms. At some point they have to cross the wall to add new genes to the pool. So the way of life for the Free folk is seen as barbaric and WILD to the southerners. "You people built your big wall and kicked us out on the on the other side" is me paraphrasing ygritte but thats how the free folk feel towards the "southerners". Rightfully so in my opinion. So I see the wall as an armor between the people and the blue rose as the blood of those two people in one person putting a chink in that armor. I would even like to ask GRRM "What side of the Wall is that Blue rose growing out of? The south side or the north side?" I suspect it is on the south side where jon has command. Now the house of the undying happens long before the events at the wall that i speak of but isnt that the point of visions? To catch a glimpse of the future and try to interpret what those visions mean? I would be fine with the books finishing up with Jon as the son of lyanna and rhaegar. I really would as long as it was a good story and if felt satisfied with the way it went down (IM LOOKING AT YOU D&D). However I have always liked "the order of the green hands" theory of N + A = J. Im not saying its canon. Just like im not saying that R+L=J is canon. I see lots of evidence for both theories and yes RLJ has the most obvious evidence but I thinks its ludicrous to call something cannon based on speculation in this particular case (IM LOOKING AT YOU INTERNET). Before anyone starts talking about what GRRM has said in regards to how the books end, I dont care what GRRM says in interviews anymore cause at one point he said the books ending would be different than the show ending. That HBO was doing "licensed fanfiction". Then he turns around later and says that people figured out the ending and he is not going to change it (ie R+L=J). At this point i will believe Jons parentage, whoever the parents are, when i see it. If im wrong and still entertained then i wont be upset. I wont argue with anyone on the internet cause frankly people on the internet are usually horrible. For the internet to be such a powerful and great tool, humanity is going to humanity and I wash my hands of it. I offered you an explanation for the blue rose in the wall for one reason. Because you asked if anyone could. Most people on the web just drop insults on people who dont subscribe to R+L=J and it really chaps my hide. So i respect someone who is open minded and not just some dogmatic gatekeeping personality. So since I have given what i think is fairly reasonable answer, could you in return reply and tell me what you think? I would really like to hear your thoughts David. Also love your work and keep it up!
I agree with part of your point that the Freedmen and the Northerners may have the same origin. It can be seen from a period when the House of Stark and the King of the Freedmen bizarrely united against the traitor of the Night's Watch - the "Night King". So I want to assume that after Brandon built the Wall or after the Battle of Dawn, some of the people went further north to establish new defensive (observation) strongholds. For example, Thurn inside. That is to say, the Wall is not the first line of defense, but the last line of defense. For a period of time, the Seven Kingdoms actually communicated with the (freedmen) outside the Great Wall, and then for some reason, the freedmen were stigmatized as savages, leading to division.
I always thought that Rhaegar sounded kind of insufferable but I never considered him from Lyanna's POV. Now I can see how Lyanna would fall for him. I wish she didn't have to die but she did get to have and experience some pretty great things during her time with Rhaegar. Can't wait for the next video. I always feel bad for Ned when I consider Robert. Ned lost almost all of his family in the war and then he lost Robert too.
Ok I'm sorry but Rhaegar publicly humiliated Elia in front of most of the nobility in Westeros. I seriously doubt she was ok with that. Plus he later left Elia and his two children in the hands of his deranged father who was openly racist against Dornish while he ran south with his naive teenage mistress. Elia was a hostage in Kings Landing and the Dornish only rode north to protect her. Rhaegar when he returned from Kings Landing made no attempt to depose his father or get his family out of Kings Landing. Because he was so sure that it was his destiny to win. When Roberts hammer came crashing down on him he must have realized just how wrong he had been. Rhaegar left Jaime a 15-16 year old kid to protect his family. What's more as we see in Jaime's flashback that the primary reason he left him their was too make Aerys feel secure about Tywin. If Rhaegar had lived I guarantee that Oberyn, Doran and the Sand Snakes would have a lot to say about him none of it good. I am sorry but Rhaegar treated Elia appallingly even by the standards of the time.
Personally, I always preferred Jon being the child of Ashara Dane and either Ned or his older brother Brandon. Too many "potential targs". Still , the show definitely didn't go that way. In any case, I will wait till HOPEFULLY George finishes the next book and see if that changes. Edit: I'm always struck by that conversation Ned had with Lyanna. She was so mature and wise for her age. Which was weird because before that she came off as a foolish girl who ended up causing the Rebellion. She was deeper than we originally realized (or at least I did). And Robert was obsessed with her, he didn't actually love her. She knew what he was truly like, but Ned didn't want to accept that. Honestly, I think Ned and Robert used each other to replace Brandon and Stannis. They became close, close enough to blind both.
Did the Kingsguard not stay and fight to the death because at that point Rhaegar's baby is essentially The King? Hightower Dayne and Whent wouldn't recognise Robert as the lawful king and with Aerys and Rhaegar and all of Rhaegar's other children dead, Jon is their baby king who they are sword to die protecting
Awesome video, I’m so pumped for the next two!! Fingers crossed for discussion of the ice dragon stuff in the Isle of Faces wedding video because that’s some of my favorite symbolism overall and super fun RLJ support. I’m also seated for this hating on Ser Gerold party, screw that guy!!
If he didnt kidnaped her, then she let her father and brother die. Because Rheagar would know that they are in prison. And she didnt wanna marry Robert because he would cheat on her, but she goes to married man. There is more evidence that she is forced to go with Rheagar
21:51 How does this prove that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lianna, it only suggests that Jon and Robb are not brothers, but does not exclude the possibility of Brandon's fatherhood
Lovely stream! So satisfying to finally have it gathered all in one place. Reading Rhaegar’s commercials are definitely some of the more fun out there, too. Keeping in bread-n-butter is just less rote kept in character. Realized as LmL read out the quote at 19-21 min that “mother of dragons, daughter of death” works not only for Dany, but also for Lyanna-and, to a lesser extent (I agree it’s Lyanna whom Rhaegar’s callling out) Elia. Lyanna’s born of the hellhound house, Elia under a speared sun, and they’re dying pleading/fighting for their children-the heirs of the dragon. Damn, GRRM’s good.
Blue roses are also a repeated motif in the Sandman comic series by Neil Gaiman. They only grow in the gardens of the realm of Dream, where anything that can be imagined can exist.
Elia wouldn't have known and if she did, she would have never agreed to have a northern Daemon Blackfyre, especially one who has a body count even before he was born.
There are literally millions of people (most of 'em dudes) who participate in drinking contests at 19 and don't become alcoholics later. I know that's not the same as in this story but dude having less than responsible fun with substances doesn't guarantee a life of problems
@DavidLightbringer oh absolutely lol Robert was a drunk asshole. Just that there isn't much to read from a 19 getting shitfaced in regards to that person's future
Ever since I've read dune and dune messiah after listening to got on audio I can't stop seeing all the things GRRM took from that brilliant story Got follows dune beat for beat As the first big event is a visit from the emperor/king to a loyal lord/duke to offer them a position All around the deep political aspects of these stories Even George's style of chapters with one perspective is reminiscent of Herbert's prose In that he switched from thoughts of characters I haven't heard many talk about the similarities and inspiration that dune and lotr has given asoiaf. To remark on r+l= j is of course the ancient prophecy of unity. Odin tried several times to unite the kingdom of Midgard by having a child that was half giant and half aiser. His first attempt was Thor whose mother was fiorgyn?! Then Loki who was a giant but he was stolen so it didn't work. To end with Baldur , the golden boy. Jon is a form of this ancient story But it could be an inversion of the prophecy Exactly like Paul attreides Which of course is a manipulation of the bene giserit
I was very badly bullied from elementary school all the way through high school, because I grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness. I wasn’t allowed to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance, any holiday celebrations at school, couldn’t go to school dances, nor have any friends from school, unless they were also from the same ‘religion’. I also suffer from ADD and PTSD, so the daydreaming, spaciness, trouble with schoolwork, and dissociation frequently happened at school too, which I got picked on for. It would have definitely been awesome to have someone with the same bravery that Lyanna and Jon showed, to help me out, lol. I made it out of that life and ‘religion’ alive, and never looked back. Something that happened about 10 years after high school, really made me think. I was out shopping with my little girl. We were smiling, enjoying treats together, and riding the carousel in the middle of the mall, when I looked up and saw my bully. She was stuck, working behind one of those random kiosks. She looked positively miserable. I always kind of felt bad for her when we were in school, because she showed up with br**ses, and there were rumors she was ab*sed by her brother and dad. I always tried to keep away from her, but I was never mad at her for what she did to me. I knew it was a response from someone else bullying her. I hated that she hadn’t seemed to have escaped from that life like I had. I know a lot of people never do. ♥️♥️
The biggest mistake the Fandom makes is saying Rhaegar and Lyanna caused the Rebellion, they didn't. The Mad King's murders of the Lord of Winterfell, his heir and their retinues(including the Heir to the Vale) and his call for Robert and Ned's heads. Rhaegar and Lyanna running away was a scandal at worst that escalated because Aerys was disconnected from reality and paranoid.
29:00 Robert's love for Lyanna is quite artificial. It's really strange that Robert was so fixated on Lyanna, considering that he didn't know her and that Robert wasn't very picky about girls. Robert says that he kills Rhaegar in his sleep every night. In the real world, I would not attach importance to this, but in the world of ice and fire, there are those who can send dreams to others. Namely the bloodraven. Perhaps he influenced Robert's mind.
I think part of his fixation after her death was that Lyanna was supposed to be *his* and first Rhaegar then death claimed her first. Robert doesn’t seem to be the type to forgive and forget what he would perceive as a slight against his honor.
I think we also need to examine the three Kingsguard at the Tower from the perspective of the Houses they're part of, and how that feels _extremely_ relevant to all of this. Gerold Hightower - the Hightowers hold Oldtown, and thus the Citadel and at least some of the loyalty of the Maesters. The Hightowers may also descend, based on some of the pre-Valyrian Dragonlord theories, from the same prior civilization that the Valyrian Targaryens & Velaryons do, _and_ we must consider the way the Hightowers were built into Fire & Blood after establishing Gerold's presence at the tower. Arthur Dayne: The Daynes demonstrably have similar phenotypical traits to the Targaryens, despite no Targaryens entering the Dayne family tree, which also hints at the aforementioned proto-Valyrian migration group. Arthur is also clearly a riff on King Arthur of Camelot, which reinforces the idea of the Tower of Joy being related to the Arthurian Joyous Garde. Oswell Whent: The Whents held Harrenhal, a place of secrets dark and deep, haunted by death and dragonfire. Idk, i just feel like there's a thematic reason these three houses were picked as the three associated with the Tower of Joy, and id love to see someone dig deeper.
Great video! I hate to say R+L=J is obvious…but it becomes that way as the story progresses. I’m of the party that Ashara is actually with Howland, and Jojen and Meera are her children. It’s interesting to see the rage and paranoia of the crown effect Robert like it did to Aerys.
@@forgotmyunI’m probably in the minority that hates this theory lol. I personally want to believe that Ashara could be a more dynamic character than just her having been sitting in the swamp all this time making crannog babies with the man who most likely killed her brother…Like what if she was a prophecy head like Rhaegar or some kind of seer like a theory I once saw on reddit. That seems a more interesting avenue for such a mysterious character of the mysterious House Dayne. Also a pet peeve I have whenever Ashara is bought up is that this fandom tends to treat her as the hot girl trophy that some guy “won” and nothing more.
@@JorraneRei that would make Howland Reed the biggest asshole in all of Westeros 😂😂 The story that he tells Meera and Jojen about the tourney is quite literally a how I met your mother story, unless he really told his kids repeatedly “oh yeah before you two, I met this baddie” over and over again. And also the timelines, Meera would have to have been conceived around the time of the tourney itself.
Jon is absolutely the blue flower in the wall but the show inspired me to see it as Viserions blue breath 'blooming' as it tears down the wall, a much more literal image and doesn't fit the sweetness aspect but could be seen as bitter sweet! Great content as always Dave 💜
Maegor couldn’t make the Faith bow even with dragons and having the conquering trio in living memory. Aegon the Unworthy couldn’t discard Naerys and waited till he was in his deathbed before legitimising Daemon Blackfyre, subsequently kickstarting the Blackfyre rebellion. How did Rhaegar think he could pull the polygamy card with Elia and Lyanna when he had no dragons? I think people are getting a little desperate because we tend to like associating our protagonist with equally protagonist like parents when they’re likely not.
well, if he was planning on pulling off a soft coup to replace his father, people would be overwhelmingly grateful, so maybe he thought he could slip it in because of the goodwill. the bottom line is prophetic need anyway so you can sort the rest out however it makes the most sense to you
Small folk are more intimately close to their religion than a royal family they barely see. Aerys have made himself a Mad King but he was contained in Kings Landing. What doused the flames is Rhaegar’s sanity suddenly taking a leave and spiriting Lyanna, expecting everyone to act rationally which is the stupidest thing to do considering Aerys’ human torching tendencies and the Starks being worried sick about her, that’s how you get a torched Lord Paramount and a full blown rebellion.
@@DavidLightbringer yeah if he thought that was gonna work or fly with literally any lord or smallfolk, then he probably wasn't as smart as he's made out to be. It's most likely that he was prophecy obsessed and planned on fathering his 3rd kid on lyanna by whatever means necessary (maybe due to house stark's association with warg magic + not wanting to kill elia+baby with another pregnancy). I just don't see her running off with a married man after knowing the fact of "once a cheater always a cheater". she seemed too smart and self assured to sully her name and her family's name like THAT. She would've tried preventing her marriage some other way. not to mention, we're constantly told abt rhaegar as this politically astute, moral, noble prince but all his actions say other wise. It could be that George built these 2 up like characters of fairy tales but will deconstruct them as actually not being all that amazing. OR he could go down the shipper route, which wouldn't be too crazy since this man considered dany & drogo to be a love story... 😬
Kind of hilarious that David Lightbringer, one of if not the most prolific ASOIF theorist, has waited this long to cover R+L=J for the first time 😂
@@pyramidion5911lol
Right! 😂
@@pyramidion5911funny!
@@pyramidion5911 What's your theory?
@@LucasSpurrell great question! Not sure we will get answer though
"But babe, I wasn't cheating! It was prophecy"
works less well in the real world
@@DavidLightbringer Worked for Hosea's wife ;-)
Just got to 49:00 minutes in, starting to talk about Elia. She's so mysterious to me
Idea: if Rhaegar wanted the third head of the dragon to commemorate Visenya, he might have wanted a warrior woman to be that kid’s mom.
Ooooh, great pick-up!
He picked a woman who dismounted three champions of the Tourney of Harrenhall. Sounds like a warrior woman to me.
She is a stark So maybe she could have warg-ed into the dragon.
Jon's real name might be Maegor or maybe Viserys?
I bloody hope not 🚫 I'll cry if it's not "Aemon" @@Quark214
There is this one line from Eddard IV that is obviously R + L = J. For context, in Eddard III, Ned killed lady. In this scene, he is talking to Little Finger about the assassin sent to kill Bran: “Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.”
Sansa pleaded with Ned not to kill her puppy. Lyanna pleaded with him to save her baby. Especially after the mention of killing Rhaegar’s first son.
So Raegar having a son and him being killed and that being said in the same chapter PROVES R + L = J????! I really wonder about you people’s thinking. How does that make any sense. Did you just learn to read. My little pony is probably your speed. R+L=D, B+A=J
@@TheCbot88 Dude, why are so you angry about a fantasy book? I’m just here for a good time. You need to touch grass
@@TheCbot88Are you okay?
Yeah, I’m great, I just don’t think you guys know what foreshadowing means. Two sentences being in the same paragraph means literally nothing. Books have lines. Lines are printed linearly. One after the other. The punctuation tells you it’s a new sentence. I literally don’t see any connection. I read, speak and comprehend English very well - sorry, not sorry. You guys have dumb opinions and you’re even worse at expressing them. It’s hard to believe English is your first language.
bro, you're out here accused of other people of poor reading comprehension, and you think RLD and BAj? have a look in the mirror. And maybe actually watch the video you're commenting on because I think I proved it behind a doubt. And this line - if you don't understand the basic parallelism happening here, with Sansa pleading for an innocent life, and Lyanna pleading for an innocent life, with Robert being the looming specter in both situations, then I can't help you and you're in no position to be lecturing people about foreshadowing. you also came in rude from your first comment and if you keep it up you will be banned.
Maester Aemon remembers how the love of his life looked. The shape of her nose, color of her eyes, etc.
No wonder Robert thinks about Rhaegar bitterly. Homie’s last word was Robert’s fiancée’s name. Rhaegar couldn’t have done it better if he’d moonwalked into all seven of the heavens singing Rick Astley
That ad with reading Rhaegar is just great. Good enough not to skip past 😂
This and an long-18th century history channel that focuses on equipment and tactics of the UK army are the only 2 channels that I actually look forward to watching the adverts for
Rhaegar could be the mascot for a cereal commercial.
@@kellypayeur7880 yes, i hope they cast Dave Lightbringer as Rhaegar. Now that would be some very savvy casting
I do love Magic Spoon!
One does not simply skip Reading Rhaegar ads.
I propose that neither of them lived long enough to have a real fight in their relationship so their bond over the prophecy combined with their attractions towards each other with those rose colored glasses would breed that their relationship was “picture perfect”. Up until they died of course.
Another way it's like Romeo & Juliet
That's a good point. It gets painted in this 'romantic' light but how long would the "honeymoon phase" have lasted. What would it have been like a few years after?
@@ThommyofThennProbably when they had to figure out the whole polygamy situation lol. I wouldn't want to be on the bad side of a Dornish Princess, even as a she-wolf. And even if Ellia was ok with the situation, those are tricky waters to navigate.
All the ballads and tragedies are modeled after this brief, intense, doomed love. I find stories like Cat losing Ned much more compelling. A tried, true and tested love snuffed out before you could stop it. I want songs about that.
Hey I just noticed we were talking in that GirlNettles stream. Nice!
@@jessjess23brooks89Even in fully consenting 'love triangles' (sorry if there is a better term for it. Throuple maybe??) , I agree it would be perilous especially when you have a volatile mix of passionate young people. I know Elia is often painted as demure or something but I don't see much basis for that. Yea she was in poor health after several tough pregnancies but that (i assume) doesn't really say anything about her as a person. She was Dornish! I bet she was as firey as a Dornish pepper in her wroth and could spit venom if her ire was raised.
And the 2nd part of your post raises the interesting point about the fixation on unstable, usually toxic or unsustainable at best relationships, a trope that to extent, is still found in music today.
I think another important detail and clue from GRRM on Rhaegar’s character (and how he did not abduct/abuse Lyanna) is how the very first time Dany is compared to him, is when she’s defending the women from being r-worded by the dothraki. Have never seen that as coincidence either. But now I did watch and as said earlier, gorgeous video!! You connected the clues simply and it feels just obvious with your explanations. Such wonderful job, thank you!!✨
I wish we could know how true that was. To me Rhaegar seems more broody and melancholy like Jon. The people who compliment Daenerys are talking about Rhaegar’s sense of justice. But she seems more ill tempered and reactionary like Viserys.
Well, Dany knew what it was like to be abused and to have no say over her life. Her own brother sold her off to a Dothraki tribal leader, a people who were known for their violence and in whose world there was no room for sympathy. Viserys could pinch her and sometimes slap her around when they were growing up, and he would have rated her the night before the wedding if Tobo Moht (sp?) hadn't posted guards at her door, so she could empathize with those women. Also, she grew up hearing about Rhaegar's kindness and overall honorable character.
Hm, it is implied that Rhaegar arranged the Tourney of Harrenhal to depose his father. Varys and his big, fat mouth ruined that. However, Rhaegar showed that he presented a sharp contrast to his mad, insane father. Aerys was doing a good enough job showing everyone that he was nuttier than a fruitcake. While Rhaegar crowing Lyanna his Queen of Love and Beauty could be seen as a romantic gesture, it was stupid. Rhaegar openly snubbed and insulted his wife. By giving Lyanna those roses, it could be implied that she is Rhaegar's mistress, hence Brandon's angry reaction at this perceived slight to his sister's honor. If Rhaegar wanted to use the Tourney as political leverage to assume the throne, crowning someone besides his wife the Queen of Love and Beauty was politically stupid and only alienated the entire audience. Ned himself said it was the moment that "all the smiles died".
you're not wrong about any of that
Knowing what we learn later about Varys’ leanings toward a “king for the common people” and investment in Faegon - I’m not sure I understand why he didn’t favour Rhaegar? Rhaegar was known to be au fait with the common people. Is it because he was trying to sow discord like he did with the Lannisters to create a vacuum for the Blackfyres to step into?
@@MissMdubsPossibly...
@@MissMdubs Would make sense
I’ve always found the blame that Rhaegar gets for the death of his wife and children a little unfair. He left them in safe hands, at the seat of his houses power, protected by one of the most naturally skilled swordsman in Westeros who’s a sworn Knight of the Kingsguard and who’s also from a great house, he can’t truly be blamed for Jamie’s carelessness.
Now, I do think he made a lot of bad decisions and isn’t innocent by any means, but if Jaime had been there when the Mountain broke through Elia’s door (where Rhaegar had ordered him to be) then his wife and children would’ve been safe, and the Mountain either dead or forced to fall back.
If Aerys left them at Dragon Stone they would be still alive and didn't he burn Lord of North and his son. This wouldn't gotten so out control.
Impregnating a 15 year old is inherently very dangerous to the mother.
Young girls are much more likely to die in childbirth, there are reasons we in modern times value the fact children cannot consent
Thank you for acknowledging this the amount of times I've heard people say he killed his wife and children is agonizing it's not his fault they were in Kings landing nor his fault that tywin was let into the city areys killed rhagars family not rhagar
@@thatoneblackdude3333 well it was his fault that he kept his relationship with lyanna a secret which caused all this mayhem
Well, sry, he kinda did.
At least a little.
I mean he left 2 Kingsguard Knights with Lyanna initially, his most loyal, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent.
Later on Lord Commander Gerold Hightower was sent to bring him back and Rhaegar probably either smoothed tongued him into his faction then, or he had already done so to begin with.
Who knows?
Fact is, he never returned to Kings Landing with Rhaegar, but stayed behind at the tower with Arthur and Oswell as well.
Elia on the other hand was left with:
Barristan Selmy: Whom would undoubtedly protect her, but was foremost loyal to his King, so if Aerys demanded it of him, he would've watched her die without lifting a finger.
At least at that point.
He was clearly an unhappy member of Aerys's faction, but still loyal to his King above all.
It's probably why Rhaegar didn't include Barristan in his plans despite having good relations with him.
Jonothor Darry: Not much known about him, but seeing as he was neither close to Rhaegar, nor Elia, it stands to reason he was either loyal to Aerys or Rhaella.
Seeing how much Rhaella suffered though, I'd imagine he was a "blindly loyal to the King" type.
Jaime Lannister: Whom was monstrously talented, but young and inexperienced. There is also no hint of him "choosing" a side, so it's doubtful that he joined Elia's faction. Rhaegar specifically asking him to protect Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon however, implies that he was in the early stages of being recruited for Rhaegar's faction.
None the less he never chose a side, so Rhaegar putting the life of his family in his hands was incredibly stupid.
Lewyn Martell: Elia's uncle. It stands to reason, that he was part of Elia's faction and was probably enraged, when he was told to leave her and her childrens protection to someone else. He was however the only person in the entire "royal faction" to put Elia and her children first. 🤔
I doubt he intentionally left them vulnerable, but he definitely placed Lyannas and Jon's safety first, which begs the question: Why?
In my opinion, Rhaegar must've found out new "information about the prophecy. Maybe knowing that Jon was to be Lightbringer (even if he probably thought of him as Visenya) yet Aegon not the prince that was promised, changed his priorities enough so he would commit to a slight mistake.
The cost: Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon.
Jaime says about Rhaella
"We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."
I had totally missed that Gerold Hightower was sent by Aerys, Rhaegar couldn't protect himself or Lyanna from Aerys, so he probably left reluctantly.
I love hearing Jon called a special snowflake.
Lord Snowflake 😂
It's funny that Jon is a Targaryen that looks like a Stark (Black hair and brown eyes), while his cousins are Starks that look like Tullys (Red hair and blue eyes)
Actually Jon has grey eyes but they're so dark they look kinda black 🤓☝️
@@pyramidion5911no he doesn’t. wtf are you talking about?
@@pyramidion5911telling us you only watched the show without telling us you only watched the show.
I think @@pyramidion5911 is on to something here. Ned was actually JonCon all along. No better way to secure the North's Southern Ambitions than playing both sides of the rebellion. That's why he has red hair
Evidence: it's the same play the Umbers are making in the current story (kinda)
What is interesting about the Hades & Persephone is that in some versions they have a son Zagerus who is killed and then reborn and becomes Dionysius. Yes, most people know it as Zeus and Persephone having a kid, but Hades was often referred to as basically "Zeus of the Underworld". They had a healthy respect of him and didn't want to draw attention to themselves by using his name.
Anyway, in regards to that Zagerus myth sometimes it's Zeus that kills him because he promised that the son of Hades & Persephone (or the son of Persephone if Zeus is the father) would inherit his throne. Saw how strong Zagerus was going to be and basically killed him out of fear. To try to cover it up or make things better he implanted the baby in his mortal lover's, Semele, womb. Then Hera tricked her to basically offing herself and so Zeus sowed the fetus into his leg. Thus Dionysius is born.
Sorry this is just a really long way of saying that there is a myth out there where Hades & Persephone have a son who dies and is brought back to life. Like Jon will be. Just minus all the hedonistic bit.
I love how messed up Greek Mythology gets, especially when it comes to Zeus and his many bizarre kids!
Maybe the 'reborn more wolfish" is a misdirection and when Jon is reborn, he will be super chill and just want crush chalices of hot mulled wine (no lemon though, even party-god avatars know that's for southrons😂)
Man, Zeus can just incubate a baby anywhere.
@@thing_under_the_stairsone of the first books I read by myself was this illustrated book of Greek myths my grandparents got me. I read it over and over and I think it got me very used to really weird stuff happening in books. Especially the eating of kids stuff and the dudes giving birth by having fully grown people just climb out of their heads 😮
I learned a new myth today that I have never heard and that makes me incredibly happy, thank you.
Very excited to watch this!
Whenever people say “R + L = J” is too obvious for George, therefore “N + A = J” I just think they’ve been in the online fandom for too long. If someone is reading the books for the first time without the show or online theorists… R + L = J probably wouldn’t even cross their mind. It’s not even suggested by a single character. Anyone who says it’s “too obvious” is really just confirming that George did a FANTASTIC job hinting at it just beneath the surface, which the online community has obviously picked up on.
Exactly, I think people assume if a mystery is guessed or solved than it makes it bad when that is the point of a mystery. Let alone that it has been already confirmed by outside sources that it's true.
I flirted with N+A=J for a bit after watching a bunch of Order of the Green Hand years ago. But after diving into the LmL-iverse I was brought back to canon. David grounds his theories in GRRM’s symbolism and mythology that serve as the foundations for the entire plot. They are the soil in which GRRM tends his garden. Overanalyzing plot elements to construct alternative theories eventually untethers the story from the thematic and esoteric elements of A Song of Ice and Fire.
N+A=J would legit go against everything we know about Ned as a character…and it would do absolutely nothing for the story. I’ll never understand how anyone believes that theory or how anyone would even want that theory to be true.
I think GRRM has stated it this way, "you don't get to spend the entire movie hinting that the butler did it, only to trick people at the end that he didn't."
@@thisguy8106 Rhaegar is 1/4 Dayne via Dyanna Dayne, Egg's mother (thanks to several generations of incest) so Jon doesn't need a nonsensical Ashara parentage to fulfill that condition if it's important to you. He's also 1/2 Blackwood, so Jon has shapechanger blood on both sides!
I've always assumed lyanna told rheagar the story of Beal the bard, the prophecy clicked into place in his head, then the crown of roses given back to her would be more symbolic.
Isn't Ygritte surprised no one ever told Jon that story?
If the wildlings have it as part of their own oral tradition, I bet Lyanna would have heard it at some point too. Maybe she and Rhaegar had a sweet moment during cuddle time and she told him then
@@ThommyofThennThe fact no one told Jon also reinforces R+L=J because I’m sure Ned would want as few connections to Lyanna talked about to Jon as possible.
Giving Gerold Hightower and these other seemingly throwaway or background characters such depth is actually going to make a reread so refreshing
Great video as always!
With the 3 Kingsguard, I think the reason they did what they did and died fighting Ned and company is that while they may have known from Lyanna that Ned would never be a threat to her baby, Ned was still a *political* enemy.
From the Kingsguard’s perspective, Ned was still a rebel who helped overthrow the Targaryens and supported the “usurper”. Even after the Sack of King’s Landing and the atrocities against Rhaegar’s family which Robert approved, Ned had still lifted the siege at Storm’s End and made the Reacher lords bend the knee to the new King Robert.
So while Ned could be trusted to pass the baby off as his bastard and raise him in safety at Winterfell, that is NOT what the Kingsguard would have wanted.
And even with keeping the baby safe, even Lyanna had fear on her face before Ned said “I promise”, and the Kingsguard would have much less reason to trust him.
But based on the conversation in the Tower of Joy flashback, it is very clear that the Kingsguard believed baby Jon was the true King.
Especially with how they refer to Ser Darry who fled with Rhaella and Viserys (who at that point Rhaella had crowned as King) as “Not of the Kingsguard”, and that “the Kingsguard does not flee”, and they “swore an oath”.
One is reminded of Stannis, another prophecy-driven Azor Ahai figure like Rhaegar, who commands his men that if he should die in battle, then they are to “seat my daughter upon the Iron Throne, or die in the attempt”. It is possible Rhaegar gave them a similar order.
And even without an order like that from Rhaegar, if the Kingsguard saw baby Jon as the trueborn rightgul King, then they would see it as their duty to seat him on the Iron Throne.
So as opposed to Ned raising Jon in Winterfell and keeping his parentage secret, the Kingsguard’s plan was likely to raise Jon either in Essos or in Loyalist Dorne (likely Starfall), perhaps keeping him secret and hidden for a time, but once Jon was old enough, press his claim and use him to try and rally the realm and restore the Targaryen dynasty.
And so I think that is why they fought to the death, to stop Ned from being the one to raise baby Jon which would prevent a Targaryen restoration.
And as for Gerold Hightower, I personally do not think he was at all hostile to Rhaegar, or was keeping Lyanna hostage for Rhaegar’s good behavior. Particularly because he seemingly did not send any word back to Aerys about Lyanna. But once Rhaegar died, I think he was probably keeping Lyanna hostage insofar as he may have disregarded any wishes she may have had about her or the baby going to Winterfell. And instead would have forced her to stay in hiding with the baby, and eventually pressing the baby’s claim. And since he was not one Rhaegar’s companions like Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, he probably was not privy to or cared about the prophecy or “savior of the world” stuff, and was instead focused on the political aspect and his duty as a Kingsguard.
Those are just my thoughts on that bit though.
those are good comments, thanks for taking the time to type them out. I'm particularly keen on the idea that the alternate plan was to take Jon to Starfall and raise him there, that makes a certain amount of sense. This situation is interesting because we actually have a lot of individual details and bits of information, enough to assemble plausible hypotheses, but not enough to know which one is right. as for Gerald Hightower, I would just point out that he was one of the ones telling Jamie not to protect Rhaella from Aerys's abuse, and I believe that detail is included so that we know Gerald is one of the bad kingsguards who is more loyal to the king than his nightly oaths or morality. on the other hand, Arthur and Oswell having been with Rhaegar for the past year, one would think they were aware of any plans he was making to depose the mad King, and obviously they didn't haul him into King's Landing and turn him in, which means they were sympathetic, and potentially tired of enabling such a cruel king. That gives me reason to believe Hightower might have been forcing the other Kingsguard to fight against their will. in any case, thanks again for the comments and I hope you'll leave a comment on my next RLJ video :)
I had forgotten that it was Hightower who said the “but not from him” line to Jamie. So yeah Hightower was definitely one of the bad Kingsguard and someone George is using as an example of someone who is not a “true knight”. So he definitely could have been doing something like holding Lyanna hostage against Rhaegar. Though I think even as an Aerys supporter he would still want to protect the Targaryen baby.
And a thought that just came to me now, if Hightower had forced the other Kingsguard to fight against their will, that could potentially explain why the Daynes seemingly don’t hate Ned and actually seem to like him (naming Ned Dayne after him). Which I really have honestly never heard a convincing explanation for.
Jon being raised at Starfall kind of sounds like a good fanfiction idea lol. But it just kind of made sense to me because of Arthur Dayne of course, and then Dorne which remained loyalist would be a good position to launch a rebellion from.
Very much looking forward to your next R+L=J video on the Secret Wedding! A trend I’ve noticed in the online fandom discussion particularly post-season 8 is an insistence that Jon would still be a bastard and does not have a claim to the throne, which imo defeats the point of RLJ and what it would mean for Jon. So I hope you address some of those things.
And I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your videos and how much effort you put into them! You are basically the only person who consistently has fresh insights and ideas and new theories. And you always present things in an entertaining and well put together way.
I thought in the book see Darry was at the tower of joy with them and he died?
@@dillonmurray592Ser Willem Darry absconded from Dragonstone with Dany and Viserys to Braavos. He is the sickly old knight that Dany remembers from her childhood 🥺
Love this theory!
Besides your logical and through analysis, I really appreciate your empathetic and sympathetic take on these two. I truly enjoyed your take.
thank you!
I don't know. Just because Elia is from Dorne, a sexually liberated country where women have more rights, doesn't mean that she would be okay with Rhaegar taking a second wife. Besides, I thought polygamous marriages ended with Maegor the Cruel. The Faith and most of Westeros would never stand for Rhaegar taking a second wife.
no we can't be sure, I only mean to suggest it as a possibility. but the other part of it is that all of the revenge obsessed Dornish seem totally cool with house Targaryen
But what if Rhaegar convinces Lyanna of the coming doom of the realm which starts in the North where the Starks are in charge of the wall with the prophecy and Lyanna probably has visions of this and of her son Jon stopping it. And then they put 2 and 2 together for the good of the realm but also falling in love with the sense of duty.
Doran being ok using what remains of House Targaryen against his enemies who brutally murdered his sister isn’t really out of the realm of reason. The man was playing the long game and using Dany isn’t synonymous with forgiving Rhaegar, it only means Dany was far more useful to him alive than dead, she was still a Targaryen who if she had succeeded in taking the throne would look favourably at her allies and remember the enemies with blood on their hands, especially if that had been Targaryen blood.
@@schemeteam2954lol the story is just a way of getting laid 😂😂😂 he just uses it
I suggest you check you facts again the reason why they never took a second wife that because there no reason to.
that random clip of Rhaegar just silently eating cereal is a gem 😂
I laughed so hard. Perfect comedic timing
@31:15 It is worth noting here that in the original drafts for this story, GRRM had written it as Brandon who shows up to defeat Howland's attackers with a tourney sword. IMO, Brandon makes a lot more sense UNLESS you are trying to establish Lyanna as a character who is just as headstrong and wild as her siblings.
The squires also did not appear to have weapons which, despite Lyanna likely being smaller/weaker than they were, gave her a huge advantage. That and Lyanna's sudden appearance.
One cannot help but think that George should have had more criteria for D + D to write the show than just the identity of Jon Snow's mother.
If I was GRRM, I would’ve asked them what the overarching theme of ASOIAF is. That I feel is the most important question to the series. You can’t have a faithful adaptation if you don’t understand the source material.
david mentions rhaegar didn't ask lord rickon for permission to marry lyanna. but if you notice lord rickon didn't ask for his daughter back when he went to king's landing. maybe the fathers know what was going on.
I always imagine that when Rhaegar went off to find the "Knight of the laughing tree", he must have found Lyanna, worked out it was her somehow and the pair of them probably fought!
I bet he was like "Come on "my lady"! We'll take you back, you can explain blah blah" and she probably tried to fight him and banter ensued! Maybe they too ended up in the water of a pond or lake and were soaking and as they fought she slowly told him the real story. "Those Squires deserved it for beating up the Crannog man! Someone needed to teach them a lesson!" And the more they fought and the feistier Lyanna got (and maybe she handed Rhaegar his ass too!)
Rhaegar was like "Damn, I'm in love." I bet he'd never met any woman like Lyanna, akin to how Jon had never met someone like Ygritte? Someone fiery, fierce and who stood up for everything good, just and righteous! Just like Rhaegar did himself!
I imagine after they fought that Rhaegar probably very quickly realised if Lyanna was put Infront of his father (Aerys) he would one, probably kill her because he was nuts and two, Lyanna's father would likely punish Lyanna for what she'd done even if Aerys didn't first. It would have definitely ruined her status as "a lady".
Lyanna being punished for doing something right, probably didn't sit too comfortably with Rhaegar at all.
He of course, let's her go and later crowns her with the crown of roses because of what she did standing up for Howland. Lyanna WAS the Queen of love and beauty and much much more than that as well.
I suppose he was dumb in the sense that he probably didn't realise that no one else knew the reason he was crowning Lyanna...
Not because he just randomly fancied some girl in the crowd... But because he was rewarding her for her bravery and righteousness.
Maybe Lyanna was sat there, (shitting bricks - as the English saying goes!!) worried that Rhaegar had told his father? Maybe he was going to "out" her when he walked his horse up to where she was sat, watching in the crowd? Only to be presented with the crown of roses and to realise that Rhaegar understood her, that he wasn't going to reveal her secret. In the moment it probably felt like a great idea to Rhaegar! Lyanna too! And then of course the pair realised that to the outsider...... It was going to look very very suspicious.
It's not like Rhaegar could have just gone "Oh hey guys! Don't worry! I don't fancy her! It's just that she bested these idiots who were bullying some guy and I thought, let's reward her with this crown to show I appreciate what she did!!" 🤷🏻♀️🙈
/end rant
This would make a great scene in the books!
What do you think of the theory that Martin is telling a story about how every time you try to force prophecy to happen, it backfires?
There are certainly a lot of misinterpretations of prophecy that ends up destroying the person for trying to make it happen, rather than just waiting to see. Ex: Stannis as Azor Ahai, Aegon's mistake at Summerhall, and even Rhaegar with the Prince that was Promised - as Aemon points out this is Dany, not Rhaegar or his son(s). And so the theory is that Rhaegar's choices to try and fulfill the prophecy ended his life. Vs Dany fulfilled it before she knew about it.
That's pretty much true not much of a theory only to people who refuse to consider azora hai might be Dany reject this thinking
She'll be the woman who will fight for their honour
She'll be the hero that he's dreamin' of
They're gonna live forever, knowin' together
That they did it all for the glory of love
I think people who don't take the Dornish chars and Ned's lack of criticism for Rhaegar seriously need to better understand how George tends to write. This is a classic example of 'show, don't tell'. As you point out, he puts the characters who know the truth right next to those who don't and lets us notice the difference. George almost never confirms these types of things explicitly, and while I imagine the next books will contain more information people should be prepared for the possibility that we might already know 60-80% of the information about this that he's ever going to tell us.
That Jon Snow as a Targaryen picture at 1:42 might be the best Jon art I have seen in my opinion. More than just the white hair but the style, brushwork. Oh my
I can imagine something like Hightiwer coming to take Rhaegar and Lyanna, on order from the king. But, Arthur and Oswell defy and threaten him out of loyalty. So, a compromise is reached due to Higtower not wanting to face two other kingsguard + Rhaegar, and them not truly wanting to kill him, either. So, Rhaegar agrees to return freely, so long as Hightower stays to defend his new wife and child.
You can demonstrate Rhaegar’s respect, even if not love, for Elia as he doesn’t put her through the risk of another pregnancy to meet his own ends. We see other supposedly “good” characters put their wives through fatal pregnancies.
But he still left her and their children behind on Dragonstone. Thusly, leaving them vulnerable to the Mad King.
That definitely seems to be a trait that is fairly unique in Rhaegar, at least compared to some of the other lords/kings. I felt that HOTD was making a bit of a nod to this in s1. As you said, Rhaegar respects/quite possibly loved Elia enough to break several social taboos so that he can continue his quest without forcing her to essentially lay down her life for him. Meanwhile Viserys,
(HOTD SHOW SPOILERS)
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who apparently feels somewhat badly about that absolutely horrifying 'delivery' scene, after quick deliberation, kills his wife in exchange for an heir. I believe Rhaegar would have found another way if he were in that situation too.
@@kellypayeur7880 I mean...kinda? He left them, true - but it proved correct that Aerys was not going to hurt them. Besides, where else should he have left them? It was quite literally the safest place in the realm, holding out months after the rest fell. Taking them with him on a dangerous journey or into war would not have been a reasonable choice either. The only "safer" option would have been to not contribute to that mess in the first place...
@@kellypayeur7880Except they weren’t. Aerys never hurt them, he kept them where he could see them to force Dorne to fight for him but there’s no evidence that Aerys hurt Elia, Rhaenys or Aegon. If Jaime would have done what anything except let Clegane and Lorch do what they did Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon would have probably survived. I’m not blaming Jaime for that btw, he made a mistake and is haunted by it which is more than anyone can say for other people that did/benefitted from what happened to them
@@DavidCarradinesBelt He didn't physically harm them. But he still kept them as prisoners and hostages against their will to ensure Dorne's cooperation.
When Dorne heard of Rhaegar and Lyanna running off, they threatened to withhold their swords/army. Aerys held Lewyn Martell hostage to force them to relent. The Martells were not happy with Rhaegar’s actions.
And Elia would have been even less happy, as she would have never agreed to Rhaegar recreating Daemon Blackfyre: A Dornish queen and her half-Dornish son being threatened by a high born bastard, a conflict that ended on Elia's lifetime.
😮9:24 i thought this was some early 1700s oil painting repurposed to illustrate a similar scene from asoiaf. That's some gorgeous and detailed artwork, very neat. It reminds of one where Herod's daughter dances around. Thank you Justin!
Justin is SOO good and he did the trident battle one where Rob and Rhaegar are both raising up in the stirrups about the clash. the best
This is really a treat David! Wasn't excepting one of these more highly edited theroy videos but they are my favorite! Thanks for making my day.
That was a terrific video thank you for making it. Delivered like a lawyer's closing argument and full of forensic analysis of the source material. Loved every bit of it ❤️
I always felt Robert wanted to marry Lyanna to be a brother to Ned and not because he was truly in love with her
But I do agree with David Lightbringer, that Littlefinger spread lies about the "abduction". It was all about getting back at Brandon Stark for the "souvenir" he got through their duel. He would have witnessed firsthand the chaos and destruction a few carefully constructed words could cause...and use them as "inspiration" in the future to fulfill his twisted ambitions.
20:05 Dude! 😂
On a serious note: Since George didn't give us TWOW yet, it gave me time to dive deeper and deeper into the world of these books through this channel. I appreciate the ride so far, it will be my 5th anniversary subscribing to you this year (shoutout @QuinnsIdeas for the collabo) and I can't appreciate it enough, my man !
To the journey until now, and to the journey which lies ahead, for it will be glorious!
Cheers and a heartfelt "Thank you" ✊
,🔥🔥🔥
You’re so good at noticing and connecting all of these bits of information scattered throughout the series. Thank you!
I mourn for Rhaegar and Lyanna so much. I feel like they had a beautiful connection, that we may never get to know the true ins and outs of. She's painted as such a badass, but the sound of Rhaegar's harp can move her to tears. And every account of Rhaegar paints him as someone gentle, kind, and just. What a shame to not see these 2 lead the kingdom. I wonder what Rhaegar's plans he spoke of to Jaime were.
Also to feed the theory monster, what do we think of Daenarys secretly being Rhaegar's child instead of sister? I've seen that one here and there.
Perfect content once again ❤
The real tragedy of Rhaegar Targaryen is that he is Summerhall made flesh: Obsession with prophecies, grandiose plans to save the world and willingness to sacrifice women into its altar. He never took Lyanna out of love or even lust, but because he sought to prove that the prophecy that spawned him was real and worth any measure of sacrifice. Instead, his parents die, his wife and kids die, his "lover" dies and his siblings are forced into Essos in exile.
And nope, Rhaegar and Lyanna wouldn't have been good rulers. He would have been more like Aerys I and she is utterly disinterested in politics and any ladylike pursuits. Be real and remove the shipping tinted glasses.
Gerold Hightower - The White Bull - The Gelded Ox, who thought of nothing of Aerys "taking his rights" via his queen, even though it was clearly r***, following each poor person who was burned with wildfire.
hate that man
Ned also cares for cersei's children lives, he doesn't specifically protect Targaryen, he's just a nice guy
Thank you for breaking this down further Dave. I for one am very happy that magic spoon was kind enough to keep R+L well fed during her pregnancy. Makes sense why Jon is such a strong strapping boy
exactly! high in protein, etc etc, lol
This is the best explanation of the "to the death" business at the tower of joy I've ever heard
I think Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, but only at first, I think she might of tried to leave and then shit got dark with Rhaegar it’s either that or both Rhaegar and lyanna are responsible for about 10s of thousands of death, a bunch of mass rape, and other things like that.
This was by far the most creative and the most entertaining sponsorship I've seen on TH-cam. 👍🤣
I think N+A=J and him being part Dayne would make him the next "Sword of the Morning/Last Hero" with Dawn/Lightbringer....
Rhaegar is also part Dayne via Egg's mother Dyanna Dayne, so that idea is also compatible with R + L = J!
I think N+A=J would make much more sense when he’s wielding dawn. I’m who invested in the theory lol
@@jakedvander If you haven't seen it, David has another video called "Dawn is the Original Ice: the Last Hero" that goes through all the evidence that Dawn originally belonged to the Starks during the Long Night.
I mean we think it's the dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero, and the Last Hero was probably a Stark, and Dawn is the only pure white sword, and the Starks have a tradition pre-dating Valyrian Steel of naming their family sword "Ice"... There's just a lot there that lines up.
So if all that's true, it'll be Jon's Stark blood that qualifies him to wield Dawn. His 1/8th Dayne lineage through Rhaegar is just a nice bonus.
@@OdekoMoon I’ve never thought about it that way I can totally see that happening. I’m 50/50 on it all I think both make sense which goes to show how well the story is written.
@@OdekoMoon Also I meant ego invested on the first comment
Love this stream! Been waiting for it! Thanks! You do a beautiful job linking the symbolism. GRRM is a master of weaving his symbolism in subtle ways. Neds inner monologue is the icing on the cake. He doesn’t think of Rheagar in a negative way at all. He even makes the mental comparison that he didn’t believe Rhaegar would visit a brothel vs. how Lyanna told him she thought Robert had a baby on a girl and would not keep to one bed. He makes that assumption around a memory of his sister. Good stuff!
Excellent video DL!!
Also, the Magic Spoon ad segment was hilarious. I saw it coming & still laughed hard enough to scare my cat.
Thank you, David, another great video! And one of my favorite topics related to ASoIaF. I agree with you on all points. I have never found a good reason for the fight with the Kingsguard. Your solution makes sense and explains everything. The art you found is awesome.
And your ad with Reading Rhaegar is perfect.
Rhaegar and Lyanna with the ultimate destination wedding.
Surely, that line about the wolf's blood in Lyanna and Brandon bringing them to a young death is premonition for a young Arya death?
Great video! Lyanna is a very interesting character for sure, crazy how detailed she is!
I also like the theory that Rhaegar and his wife were both in agreement with him getting a third child with Lyanna. I remember a theory video where they postulated that Rhaegar was out of the war for so long because he was negotiating with Dorne. Prince Dorian is a wily and ruthless man; he would have pushed his advantage while he could. As for the King's Guard, they likely didn't know much of the fighting since they were isolated, so Ned's taunting was actually informing them of events without him realizing it.
That theory can be easily ruined with the fact that the Blackfyre Rebellions exist. A centuries old conflict that ended on Elia's lifetime and whose casus belli was a Dornish queen and her half-Dornish son was sitting on the Iron Throne. Elia agreeing to this is basically giving her enemies a sword to kill her.
You are only getting better and better! Thanks for everything, Dave.
HOLY CANNOLI! I’m honestly so stoked for part ii of this series. Thanks for making a new ASOIF fan fall for Lyanna 💙
I do believe this is one of a very few videos where I remembered, and decided, to hit the thumbs up for ad integration 😂🤘 Well done, David. ❤️🔥
Not me looking for a good video on this topic AND FINDING YOU UPLOADED 4 HOURS AGO!! Made my hole year!! Thank you🔥🔥🔥
Great video! I sware you are also the only person I sit through the ads for, hahaha. They are always amusing.
I LOVE the high output Dave..i could watch a few hours every day i think..dig it👍
Love your video's Lml! Thank you for another one!! You have so much great content on your channel & I'm very grateful for all the literary discoveries you've shared with us!!!
Ur little editing jokes r always so funny
So glad I’m late to the party and have so much content to binge, I watch your videos daily, LML should definitely teach a University Course for Lit
His Magic Spoon Advertising is so fking KINO. The brushing the hair to side.
👁️👄👁️ "I'm a fruity guy myself!"
Just KINO
Straight up lookin like Elric of Melnibone in the cereal ad
Thanks for defending Lyanna and Rhaegar against the prevailing ideas that 'they caused a war'. Aerys and Jon Arryn caused a war. Regardless of what Robert might prefer to tell himself, he was a pawn in the game of thrones with good looks and an important name. He didn't decide to wage the war until after Aerys called for his execution and Jon Arryn refused and layed out the plans, his strategic contributions are dubious and after the war Jon Arryn ruled when he was partying. In addition, the chain of events from 'Rhaegar and Lyanna disappear' to 'Robert kills Rhaegar' is so specific and involves so much unnecesary madness and stupidity that it would have been rather hard to see all that coming. Brandon could have not called for Rhaegar to die right outside the red keep and Aerys could have just held Brandon hostage to ensure Rickard stayed in line. Certainly demanding Jon Arryn executes Ned and Robert after ensuring Ned commands the North was a completely unforced error that would have been hard to foresee for anyone. That's practically lining up the insurrection of three of the big houses.
So I have a theory about the blue winter rose in the wall. The story of bael the bard tells us that the starks have the blood of the free folk in them as stated by ygritte. Most people associate the winter rose with lyanna because of the crown presented to her at the tourney of harrenhal. However the winter rose (chronologically at least in the timeline of the story) is first spoken of in the story of bael the bard. Not saying that the story of the the tourney and the crown of roses wasnt talked about before baels story in the book. I honestly dont remember which story the reader comes across first. Just saying that if we are talking about the history of the winter rose in the books, the story of bael the bard is obviously older than the events of the tourney at harrenhal. Did GRRM pull a fast one and make everyone think that the blue rose is because R+L=J, when in reality its just about jon and his role in bringing down the wall (XD) between the freefolk and the seven kingdoms? That THE WINTER ROSE IN DANY'S VISION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LYANNA, RHAEGAR, OR WHO JONS PARENTS ACTUALLY ARE? Lets dig a little deeper into my theory and find out together!
Could the winter rose be "filling the air with sweetness" because Jon, (who has the blood of the starks and freefolk in him, which is imo the true meaning of the symbolization of the winter rose), is dissolving the barrier between the north and the freefolk and returning it to its original purpose of shielding the realms of men from the others? He is doing everything in his power to save humanity and mend the relationship between the free folk and the seven kingdoms into an alliance. Could the joining of the blood between the starks and the freefolk that happened long ago (symbolized by the winter rose itself) be blooming or blossoming in the very thing that has kept them separate for so long? Is Jon Stark (I said what i said) being a total SWEETHEART? XD
Also I am not sure but I dont remember anyone in the books describing anything like a "chink" in the wall. Only in danys vision is that word used if i remember right. I think this word is used intentionally as a symbol that jon (the winter rose) is putting a chink in the armor of the wall as it has been used for a long time, and returning it to its original purpose. The people of the seven kingdoms see the free folk as "wildlings" because the do not venture out beyond the barrier (armor) they put there, much less even try to talk or trade with the free folk. They call them "wildlings" because the free folk have to raid them to feed themselves and quite frankly to keep from inbreeding. Ygritte talks about the importance of stealing a woman from another clan and how marrying into your own clan is paramount to incest in the seven kingdoms. At some point they have to cross the wall to add new genes to the pool. So the way of life for the Free folk is seen as barbaric and WILD to the southerners. "You people built your big wall and kicked us out on the on the other side" is me paraphrasing ygritte but thats how the free folk feel towards the "southerners". Rightfully so in my opinion. So I see the wall as an armor between the people and the blue rose as the blood of those two people in one person putting a chink in that armor. I would even like to ask GRRM "What side of the Wall is that Blue rose growing out of? The south side or the north side?" I suspect it is on the south side where jon has command.
Now the house of the undying happens long before the events at the wall that i speak of but isnt that the point of visions? To catch a glimpse of the future and try to interpret what those visions mean?
I would be fine with the books finishing up with Jon as the son of lyanna and rhaegar. I really would as long as it was a good story and if felt satisfied with the way it went down (IM LOOKING AT YOU D&D). However I have always liked "the order of the green hands" theory of N + A = J. Im not saying its canon. Just like im not saying that R+L=J is canon. I see lots of evidence for both theories and yes RLJ has the most obvious evidence but I thinks its ludicrous to call something cannon based on speculation in this particular case (IM LOOKING AT YOU INTERNET). Before anyone starts talking about what GRRM has said in regards to how the books end, I dont care what GRRM says in interviews anymore cause at one point he said the books ending would be different than the show ending. That HBO was doing "licensed fanfiction". Then he turns around later and says that people figured out the ending and he is not going to change it (ie R+L=J). At this point i will believe Jons parentage, whoever the parents are, when i see it. If im wrong and still entertained then i wont be upset. I wont argue with anyone on the internet cause frankly people on the internet are usually horrible. For the internet to be such a powerful and great tool, humanity is going to humanity and I wash my hands of it.
I offered you an explanation for the blue rose in the wall for one reason. Because you asked if anyone could. Most people on the web just drop insults on people who dont subscribe to R+L=J and it really chaps my hide. So i respect someone who is open minded and not just some dogmatic gatekeeping personality. So since I have given what i think is fairly reasonable answer, could you in return reply and tell me what you think? I would really like to hear your thoughts David. Also love your work and keep it up!
I agree with part of your point that the Freedmen and the Northerners may have the same origin. It can be seen from a period when the House of Stark and the King of the Freedmen bizarrely united against the traitor of the Night's Watch - the "Night King". So I want to assume that after Brandon built the Wall or after the Battle of Dawn, some of the people went further north to establish new defensive (observation) strongholds. For example, Thurn inside. That is to say, the Wall is not the first line of defense, but the last line of defense. For a period of time, the Seven Kingdoms actually communicated with the (freedmen) outside the Great Wall, and then for some reason, the freedmen were stigmatized as savages, leading to division.
I loved the "one does not simply walk into Mordor" meme comes up :DD
You make the adds so entertaining I watch them every time haha
You hear that Magic Spoon? I WATCH THEM EVERY TIME :D
I always thought that Rhaegar sounded kind of insufferable but I never considered him from Lyanna's POV. Now I can see how Lyanna would fall for him. I wish she didn't have to die but she did get to have and experience some pretty great things during her time with Rhaegar. Can't wait for the next video.
I always feel bad for Ned when I consider Robert. Ned lost almost all of his family in the war and then he lost Robert too.
Ok I'm sorry but Rhaegar publicly humiliated Elia in front of most of the nobility in Westeros. I seriously doubt she was ok with that. Plus he later left Elia and his two children in the hands of his deranged father who was openly racist against Dornish while he ran south with his naive teenage mistress.
Elia was a hostage in Kings Landing and the Dornish only rode north to protect her.
Rhaegar when he returned from Kings Landing made no attempt to depose his father or get his family out of Kings Landing. Because he was so sure that it was his destiny to win. When Roberts hammer came crashing down on him he must have realized just how wrong he had been.
Rhaegar left Jaime a 15-16 year old kid to protect his family. What's more as we see in Jaime's flashback that the primary reason he left him their was too make Aerys feel secure about Tywin.
If Rhaegar had lived I guarantee that Oberyn, Doran and the Sand Snakes would have a lot to say about him none of it good.
I am sorry but Rhaegar treated Elia appallingly even by the standards of the time.
Personally, I always preferred Jon being the child of Ashara Dane and either Ned or his older brother Brandon. Too many "potential targs". Still , the show definitely didn't go that way. In any case, I will wait till HOPEFULLY George finishes the next book and see if that changes.
Edit: I'm always struck by that conversation Ned had with Lyanna. She was so mature and wise for her age. Which was weird because before that she came off as a foolish girl who ended up causing the Rebellion. She was deeper than we originally realized (or at least I did). And Robert was obsessed with her, he didn't actually love her. She knew what he was truly like, but Ned didn't want to accept that.
Honestly, I think Ned and Robert used each other to replace Brandon and Stannis. They became close, close enough to blind both.
Did the Kingsguard not stay and fight to the death because at that point Rhaegar's baby is essentially The King? Hightower Dayne and Whent wouldn't recognise Robert as the lawful king and with Aerys and Rhaegar and all of Rhaegar's other children dead, Jon is their baby king who they are sword to die protecting
Holy shit Rhaegar introducing himself is way too funny
Catching this on my lunch break! Thanks as always David! Phenomenal work as always.
David, I love how you are expanding your channel, using art and debate, cosplay, and of course, Joseph Campbellesk symbolism❤
Poor Rheagar, has to listen to all this speculation about the death of his love... Hope the Magic Spoon lifts his spirits!
Awesome video, I’m so pumped for the next two!! Fingers crossed for discussion of the ice dragon stuff in the Isle of Faces wedding video because that’s some of my favorite symbolism overall and super fun RLJ support. I’m also seated for this hating on Ser Gerold party, screw that guy!!
Epic. A great video beautifully executed. Nice one David, thank you.
Excellent video. Looking forward to your special R+L marriage video. (Also loved seeing roommate Reagar). ❤
If he didnt kidnaped her, then she let her father and brother die. Because Rheagar would know that they are in prison. And she didnt wanna marry Robert because he would cheat on her, but she goes to married man. There is more evidence that she is forced to go with Rheagar
Regardless of how it started, we all know how it ended: A terrified girl pleading her brother to take her home and only her bones made it back.
Hey David! Just found this channel and I love it! Thank you! Your voice is lovely! Im going through all your videos. Nice to have it all right here. ❤
21:51 How does this prove that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lianna, it only suggests that Jon and Robb are not brothers, but does not exclude the possibility of Brandon's fatherhood
What does that blue rose in the chink in the wall of ice mean if it doesn't mean that Jon is Leanna's son? LML wants to know 😊 24:29
Lovely stream! So satisfying to finally have it gathered all in one place.
Reading Rhaegar’s commercials are definitely some of the more fun out there, too. Keeping in bread-n-butter is just less rote kept in character.
Realized as LmL read out the quote at 19-21 min that “mother of dragons, daughter of death” works not only for Dany, but also for Lyanna-and, to a lesser extent (I agree it’s Lyanna whom Rhaegar’s callling out) Elia. Lyanna’s born of the hellhound house, Elia under a speared sun, and they’re dying pleading/fighting for their children-the heirs of the dragon. Damn, GRRM’s good.
There's a blue rose reference in Twin Peaks that represents cases which cannot be rationally or scientifically explained, the "impossible" cases.
Blue roses are also a repeated motif in the Sandman comic series by Neil Gaiman. They only grow in the gardens of the realm of Dream, where anything that can be imagined can exist.
Personally, I don't think Rhaegar married Lyanna - or at least didn't annul/divorce Elia. I definitely think Elia knew about it, though.
Elia wouldn't have known and if she did, she would have never agreed to have a northern Daemon Blackfyre, especially one who has a body count even before he was born.
This just arrived exactly when i needed thanks David 😊
Dave, seriously, thank you so much for helping me stay sane waiting for the next book. You give me the ASOIAF fix that I need.
There are literally millions of people (most of 'em dudes) who participate in drinking contests at 19 and don't become alcoholics later. I know that's not the same as in this story but dude having less than responsible fun with substances doesn't guarantee a life of problems
It did though
@DavidLightbringer oh absolutely lol Robert was a drunk asshole. Just that there isn't much to read from a 19 getting shitfaced in regards to that person's future
Ever since I've read dune and dune messiah after listening to got on audio
I can't stop seeing all the things GRRM took from that brilliant story
Got follows dune beat for beat
As the first big event is a visit from the emperor/king to a loyal lord/duke to offer them a position
All around the deep political aspects of these stories
Even George's style of chapters with one perspective is reminiscent of Herbert's prose
In that he switched from thoughts of characters
I haven't heard many talk about the similarities and inspiration that dune and lotr has given asoiaf.
To remark on r+l= j is of course the ancient prophecy of unity.
Odin tried several times to unite the kingdom of Midgard by having a child that was half giant and half aiser.
His first attempt was Thor whose mother was fiorgyn?! Then Loki who was a giant but he was stolen so it didn't work.
To end with Baldur , the golden boy.
Jon is a form of this ancient story
But it could be an inversion of the prophecy
Exactly like Paul attreides
Which of course is a manipulation of the bene giserit
Love your vids! Always excited to watch! Can’t wait to see this whole thing
I was very badly bullied from elementary school all the way through high school, because I grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness. I wasn’t allowed to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance, any holiday celebrations at school, couldn’t go to school dances, nor have any friends from school, unless they were also from the same ‘religion’.
I also suffer from ADD and PTSD, so the daydreaming, spaciness, trouble with schoolwork, and dissociation frequently happened at school too, which I got picked on for. It would have definitely been awesome to have someone with the same bravery that Lyanna and Jon showed, to help me out, lol.
I made it out of that life and ‘religion’ alive, and never looked back. Something that happened about 10 years after high school, really made me think. I was out shopping with my little girl. We were smiling, enjoying treats together, and riding the carousel in the middle of the mall, when I looked up and saw my bully. She was stuck, working behind one of those random kiosks. She looked positively miserable. I always kind of felt bad for her when we were in school, because she showed up with br**ses, and there were rumors she was ab*sed by her brother and dad. I always tried to keep away from her, but I was never mad at her for what she did to me. I knew it was a response from someone else bullying her. I hated that she hadn’t seemed to have escaped from that life like I had. I know a lot of people never do. ♥️♥️
The biggest mistake the Fandom makes is saying Rhaegar and Lyanna caused the Rebellion, they didn't. The Mad King's murders of the Lord of Winterfell, his heir and their retinues(including the Heir to the Vale) and his call for Robert and Ned's heads. Rhaegar and Lyanna running away was a scandal at worst that escalated because Aerys was disconnected from reality and paranoid.
29:00 Robert's love for Lyanna is quite artificial. It's really strange that Robert was so fixated on Lyanna, considering that he didn't know her and that Robert wasn't very picky about girls. Robert says that he kills Rhaegar in his sleep every night. In the real world, I would not attach importance to this, but in the world of ice and fire, there are those who can send dreams to others. Namely the bloodraven. Perhaps he influenced Robert's mind.
She was Ned with teats.
I think part of his fixation after her death was that Lyanna was supposed to be *his* and first Rhaegar then death claimed her first. Robert doesn’t seem to be the type to forgive and forget what he would perceive as a slight against his honor.
I think we also need to examine the three Kingsguard at the Tower from the perspective of the Houses they're part of, and how that feels _extremely_ relevant to all of this.
Gerold Hightower - the Hightowers hold Oldtown, and thus the Citadel and at least some of the loyalty of the Maesters. The Hightowers may also descend, based on some of the pre-Valyrian Dragonlord theories, from the same prior civilization that the Valyrian Targaryens & Velaryons do, _and_ we must consider the way the Hightowers were built into Fire & Blood after establishing Gerold's presence at the tower.
Arthur Dayne: The Daynes demonstrably have similar phenotypical traits to the Targaryens, despite no Targaryens entering the Dayne family tree, which also hints at the aforementioned proto-Valyrian migration group. Arthur is also clearly a riff on King Arthur of Camelot, which reinforces the idea of the Tower of Joy being related to the Arthurian Joyous Garde.
Oswell Whent: The Whents held Harrenhal, a place of secrets dark and deep, haunted by death and dragonfire.
Idk, i just feel like there's a thematic reason these three houses were picked as the three associated with the Tower of Joy, and id love to see someone dig deeper.
Great video! I hate to say R+L=J is obvious…but it becomes that way as the story progresses. I’m of the party that Ashara is actually with Howland, and Jojen and Meera are her children. It’s interesting to see the rage and paranoia of the crown effect Robert like it did to Aerys.
I love the H+A= M&J theory so much. Not even GRRM himself can convince me it’s not true. They’re like the small bit of happiness in the chaos.
@@forgotmyunI’m probably in the minority that hates this theory lol.
I personally want to believe that Ashara could be a more dynamic character than just her having been sitting in the swamp all this time making crannog babies with the man who most likely killed her brother…Like what if she was a prophecy head like Rhaegar or some kind of seer like a theory I once saw on reddit. That seems a more interesting avenue for such a mysterious character of the mysterious House Dayne.
Also a pet peeve I have whenever Ashara is bought up is that this fandom tends to treat her as the hot girl trophy that some guy “won” and nothing more.
@@JorraneRei that would make Howland Reed the biggest asshole in all of Westeros 😂😂
The story that he tells Meera and Jojen about the tourney is quite literally a how I met your mother story, unless he really told his kids repeatedly “oh yeah before you two, I met this baddie” over and over again.
And also the timelines, Meera would have to have been conceived around the time of the tourney itself.
Jon is absolutely the blue flower in the wall but the show inspired me to see it as Viserions blue breath 'blooming' as it tears down the wall, a much more literal image and doesn't fit the sweetness aspect but could be seen as bitter sweet! Great content as always Dave 💜
why is it so hard for you all to accept the Ned IS jon's farther and he s a Dayne
because there's no evidence for it. and because the evidence for R+L equals j is overwhelming, as I laid out in this video. did you even watch it?
@@DavidLightbringer i loved your video and am only half kidding
Maegor couldn’t make the Faith bow even with dragons and having the conquering trio in living memory. Aegon the Unworthy couldn’t discard Naerys and waited till he was in his deathbed before legitimising Daemon Blackfyre, subsequently kickstarting the Blackfyre rebellion. How did Rhaegar think he could pull the polygamy card with Elia and Lyanna when he had no dragons? I think people are getting a little desperate because we tend to like associating our protagonist with equally protagonist like parents when they’re likely not.
well, if he was planning on pulling off a soft coup to replace his father, people would be overwhelmingly grateful, so maybe he thought he could slip it in because of the goodwill. the bottom line is prophetic need anyway so you can sort the rest out however it makes the most sense to you
Small folk are more intimately close to their religion than a royal family they barely see. Aerys have made himself a Mad King but he was contained in Kings Landing. What doused the flames is Rhaegar’s sanity suddenly taking a leave and spiriting Lyanna, expecting everyone to act rationally which is the stupidest thing to do considering Aerys’ human torching tendencies and the Starks being worried sick about her, that’s how you get a torched Lord Paramount and a full blown rebellion.
@@DavidLightbringer yeah if he thought that was gonna work or fly with literally any lord or smallfolk, then he probably wasn't as smart as he's made out to be. It's most likely that he was prophecy obsessed and planned on fathering his 3rd kid on lyanna by whatever means necessary (maybe due to house stark's association with warg magic + not wanting to kill elia+baby with another pregnancy). I just don't see her running off with a married man after knowing the fact of "once a cheater always a cheater". she seemed too smart and self assured to sully her name and her family's name like THAT. She would've tried preventing her marriage some other way. not to mention, we're constantly told abt rhaegar as this politically astute, moral, noble prince but all his actions say other wise. It could be that George built these 2 up like characters of fairy tales but will deconstruct them as actually not being all that amazing. OR he could go down the shipper route, which wouldn't be too crazy since this man considered dany & drogo to be a love story... 😬